NationStates Jolt Archive

PARIS, July 24 (Reuters) - Lebanon's president accused Israel on Monday of using phosphorous bombs in its 13-day offensive and urged the United Nations to demand an immediate ceasefire.

"According to the Geneva Convention, when they use phosphorous bombs.. , is that allowed against civilians and children?" President Emile Lahoud asked on France's RFI radio.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said arms used in Lebanon did not contravene international norms.

sources: Reuters.com / OcceanNEWS©2006

my2cents : in my book It is a War crime.... and i should expect something along those lines from the Geneva conventions.

It is morally wrong.. and there should be laws against this.

The USA liked using them during Vietnam too and IRAQ now
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4417024.stm

Lebanese Doctor Shows Phosphorus Weapons Wounds

CNN video correspondent, Karl Penhaul, follows a family that had been mistakenly caught in an Israeli air strike. The doctor treating the family says that there is phosphorus in the weapons that cause extremely painful burns on it's victims.

(WARNING: This news report, originally aired on CNN International, contains graphic images.)
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/VIDEO__Lebanese_Doctor_Says_Phosphorus_0724.html

sources: CNN-int./youTube.com

Excuse me? We are talking about Israel here.

Phosphore gains new magical properties when used by israel.

It can't be considered a chemical.

Its.. a fruit! That's right, when employed by Israel, Phosphorous bombs are classified as banana bombs. Not chemical. No no.

You damn Liberals are so ignorant!

Well, it seems that it was all Okey-dokey for use in Fallujah. Can't blame Israel for simply playing to the new script can you?


Besides, Lebs don't really need skin.






Do they?

Technically, you are allowed to use white phosphorus to destroy materiel, or to produce a rapid smoke screen (the latter is the more common use in artillery and mortar shells).

Aircraft do not have phosphorus in any of the bombs, unless you're dropping napalm, in which case the phosphorus is only the igniter, and you won't notice it because the flaming plastic is what's frying your meat off the bones.

White phosphorus also finds limited use in certain types of hand grenade, once again primarily used for smoke screen.

However, any white phosphorus shell or grenade throws the burning particles over a huge radius - the hand grenade has a bursting radius of 35 meters, which is greater than anyone can throw it.

According to international law, it's legal to use as long as civilians were not the "primary" target. In addition, it is not proscribed by name.

Very useful, for instance, for "destroying" bunkers. You don't even need to get it inside the bunker - just lay one at the door or firing slit. Anything near the opening will catch fire, and the smoke will stifle anyone inside (if they're smart, they'll run out so they can be shot and die quickly rather than smother and burn).

If they're attacking weapon stores, or areas where they reasonably believe there are rockets or rocket fuel, WP is a nice choice. It burns down the weapons. Now if the weapons are being stored in civilian areas, that's not really the Israelis' problem at all. Lebanon's president should be complaining about how this Shia military organization invited war into their country, and upon their people due to the gross dereliction of HIS government as well as the interference of Syria and Iran.

Ultimately, the Lebanese people are suffering the unforseen consequences of their failure to form a wiser, stronger, more effective government. The world can a very harsh and unforgiving place sometimes.

If they're attacking weapon stores, or areas where they reasonably believe there are rockets or rocket fuel, WP is a nice choice. It burns down the weapons. Now if the weapons are being stored in civilian areas, that's not really the Israelis' problem at all. Lebanon's president should be complaining about how this Shia military organization invited war into their country, and upon their people due to the gross dereliction of HIS government as well as the interference of Syria and Iran.

Ultimately, the Lebanese people are suffering the unforseen consequences of their failure to form a wiser, stronger, more effective government. The world can a very harsh and unforgiving place sometimes.

So, how likely do you think that at the next Lebanese elections a "wiser" (I assume you mean more Israel-friendly) government will be elected?

Phosphorus?!? Phosphorus?!? That is the height of barbarism!

We might note that collateral damage, according to the Geneva Convention, in the case where civilians are co-located with military targets, is ALL the responsibility of the military who co-located with the civilians.

For all of you who want to follow the Geneva Convention to the letter, I suggest you protest Hezbollah's practice of completely intermingling all of their infrastructure and operations and forces with civilians.

So, how likely do you think that at the next Lebanese elections a "wiser" (I assume you mean more Israel-friendly) government will be elected?

Depends on how many Lebanese die, and how many are crippled to the point where they can't vote, and how many remain who are too frightened to oppose Israel.

We might note that collateral damage, according to the Geneva Convention, in the case where civilians are co-located with military targets, is ALL the responsibility of the military who co-located with the civilians.

For all of you who want to follow the Geneva Convention to the letter, I suggest you protest Hezbollah's practice of completely intermingling all of their infrastructure and operations and forces with civilians.
Screw Geneva.
You don't use an indiscriminate weapon like that if you know it's going to harm civilians. Any other line of thinking in unethical.

Screw Geneva.


Isn't that what you criticized Rumsfeld for saying?

They're called flares. They use them at night to illuminate targets for conventional bombs. You made the exact same retarded claim during the Fallujah campaign. And all it shows is your ignorance of military hardware.

They're called flares. They use them at night to illuminate targets for conventional bombs. You made the exact same retarded claim during the Fallujah campaign. And all it shows is your ignorance of military hardware.

Maybe if we didn't illuminate the battlefield, we could just drop conventional bombs in random spots, and they could cry about the fact that the bombs fell mostly on civilians.

But the bombs would not be white phosphorus, so that's good.

Screw Geneva.
You don't use an indiscriminate weapon like that if you know it's going to harm civilians. Any other line of thinking in unethical.

Do you agree that Hezbollah, the group that has and is lobbing rockets into Isreali civilian areas, should also share the blame as they do store weapons and hide among the Lebanese civilian population?

Do you agree that Hezbollah, the group that has and is lobbing rockets into Isreali civilian areas, should also share the blame as they do store weapons and hide among the Lebanese civilian population?

Most of the people criticizing Israel have no intention of criticizing Hezbollah. To them, everything is Israel's fault.

Screw Geneva.
You don't use an indiscriminate weapon like that if you know it's going to harm civilians. Any other line of thinking in unethical.
This coming from the guy who says we should of let the holocaust happen, because "it wasnt our problem".

Excuse while I laugh at a post by Neo Undelia with the word 'ethics' in it.:rolleyes:

Screw Geneva.
You don't use an indiscriminate weapon like that if you know it's going to harm civilians. Any other line of thinking in unethical.
Sure you do. War is not an exercise in ethics, it's the ruthless destruction of people who pose a threat to your nation. While there are some laws regulating war and reducing civilian casualties, it would be impossible to eliminate civilian casualties.

Isn't that what you criticized Rumsfeld for saying?
I don’t think I’ve ever singled out Rumsfeld on this forum.
His motive for saying such a thing is very different than mine, though. I don't think Geneva goes far enough.

Maybe if we didn't illuminate the battlefield, we could just drop conventional bombs in random spots, and they could cry about the fact that the bombs fell mostly on civilians.

But the bombs would not be white phosphorus, so that's good.
Of course. The Israelis could act just like Hezbollah and shoot their rockets randomly throughout Lebanon, without any regard for where they might land.

Phosphorus?!? Phosphorus?!? That is the height of barbarism!
How do you figure?

Screw Geneva.
You don't use an indiscriminate weapon like that if you know it's going to harm civilians. Any other line of thinking in unethical.

Of course its unethical. But then again, I've never heard of an "ethical" war. War dictates its own morals pursuant with the situation. Particularly when fighting an indiscriminate enemy, you have to apply different standards. Sometimes one must do a little evil to perpetuate a greater good.

What other uses does white phosphorous have? Oh, it's also used as a smoke screen creating agent, and while it is possible to use it as a type of incendiary bomb, it's far less effective against personnel targets than Napalm. The best use of WP in an incendiary role is against buildings, where it's concentrated burning is more effective, whilst the dispersal of Napalm is far better as an Anti-personnel weapon.

I don’t think I’ve ever singled out Rumsfeld on this forum.
His motive for saying such a thing is very different than mine, though. I don't think Geneva goes far enough.


Well, if you thought that we should have let the Holocaust happen because "it wasn't our problem", then you should let Israel bend Hezbollah and Lebanon over a log and ream them out - because it's not your problem.

This coming from the guy who says we should of let the holocaust happen, because "it wasnt our problem".

Excuse while I laugh at a post by Neo Undelia with the word 'ethics' in it.:rolleyes:
I shouldn't have to say this, but ending the holocaust was hardly the point of World War II, and I never denied the lack the unethical nature of the holocaust.
Of course its unethical. But then again, I've never heard of an "ethical" war. War dictates its own morals pursuant with the situation. Particularly when fighting an indiscriminate enemy, you have to apply different standards. Sometimes one must do a little evil to perpetuate a greater good.
What is the "greater good" here?
Sure you do. War is not an exercise in ethics, it's the ruthless destruction of people who pose a threat to your nation. While there are some laws regulating war and reducing civilian casualties, it would be impossible to eliminate civilian casualties.
Which is exactly why war should be avoided at all costs. If you must, civilian casualties should be minimized as much as possible.
How do you figure?
It is a weapon specifically designed to maim. It has its uses, such as clearing bunkers, but to use it in an urban environment around civilians shows a complete disregard for human life.

I shouldn't have to say this, but ending the holocaust was hardly the point of World War II, and I never denied the lack the unethical nature of the holocaust.

What is the "greater good" here?

Which is exactly why war should be avoided at all costs. If you must, civilian casualties should be minimized as much as possible.

It is a weapon specifically designed to maim. It has its uses, such as clearing bunkers, but to use it in an urban environment around civilians shows a complete disregard for human life.

I repeat my question:

Do you agree that Hezbollah, the group that has and is lobbing rockets into Isreali civilian areas, should also share the blame as they do store weapons and hide among the Lebanese civilian population?

According to international law, it's legal to use as long as civilians were not the "primary" target. In addition, it is not proscribed by name.

I bet your one of those guy who gets upset when a criminal get away with it on a technicality but your more than happy to let govts. do it as long as they're killing people you don't like.

This is one of those times when I wish the whole world used Roman law and judges could interpret the spirit and not letter of the law before throwing those war criminals in jail.

Well, if you thought that we should have let the Holocaust happen because "it wasn't our problem", then you should let Israel bend Hezbollah and Lebanon over a log and ream them out - because it's not your problem.
The world has changed since then. It has become more globalized; and we have reached a point in history where world peace is possible, as all aggressive nations have little ability to enforce their will in the face of a united developed world, save one, Israel.

Also, my nation’s money and resources are actively used to support one side of the conflict. It is most definitely my business.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/VIDEO__Lebanese_Doctor_Says_Phosphorus_0724.html

We went after Saddam under the claim he had chemical weapons. Now what are we going to do with Israel now that we KNOW they are using them?

<snip>

Which is exactly why war should be avoided at all costs. If you must, civilian casualties should be minimized as much as possible.

It is a weapon specifically designed to maim. It has its uses, such as clearing bunkers, but to use it in an urban environment around civilians shows a complete disregard for human life.
War should be avoided, but not at ALL costs. There are times when war is the lesser of two evils. Civilian casualties should be minimized when possible, but not when minimizing them will prolong the war and may lead you to defeat. It makes no sense to go to war if you won't fight to win and longer wars will kill more people.

It's not designed to maim. It's designed to burn down structures and create smoke. Now napalm is designed to maim and kill. It sticks to you as it burns.

The world has changed since then. It has become more globalized; and we have reached a point in history where world peace is possible, as all aggressive nations have little ability to enforce their will in the face of a united developed world, save one, Israel.

Also, my nation’s money and resources are actively used to support one side of the conflict. It is most definitely my business.
Whoa, wait a minute. Israel had withdrawn from Lebanon years ago. Hezbollah then attacked across the Israeli border, killed a few Israeli soldiers and captured two more. How the fuck are you going to call Israel's actions agressive? They're defensive in nature. Israel was attacked and is now degrading the ability of their enemy to attack them again.

I repeat my question:

Do you agree that Hezbollah, the group that has and is lobbing rockets into Isreali civilian areas, should also share the blame as they do store weapons and hide among the Lebanese civilian population?
I have no love for those fanatics. They are reprehensible examples of humanity who long ago abandoned any semblance of reason in favor of blind hatred. The actions of both Hezbollah and the IDF are inexcusable, and, as the doctor in the OP clip said, it is the civilians who suffer.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/VIDEO__Lebanese_Doctor_Says_Phosphorus_0724.html

We went after Saddam under the claim he had chemical weapons. Now what are we going to do with Israel now that we KNOW they are using them?
Phosphorus is not a chemical weapon. That's like calling bullets chemical weapons because, well, lead is a chemical, right?

Whoa, wait a minute. Israel had withdrawn from Lebanon years ago. Hezbollah then attacked across the Israeli border, killed a few Israeli soldiers and captured two more. How the fuck are you going to call Israel's actions agressive? They're defensive in nature. Israel was attacked and is now degrading the ability of their enemy to attack them again.

By blowing up the kentucky fried in Tyre.....the Airport, and a large number of places not directly linked to Hezbollah, thus ensuring recruits for them to replace their losses...

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/VIDEO__Lebanese_Doctor_Says_Phosphorus_0724.html

We went after Saddam under the claim he had chemical weapons. Now what are we going to do with Israel now that we KNOW they are using them?
It's far more likely that White Phosphorous is not being used as a chemical weapon, instead it's being used as a flare or screening agent. Some severe injuries happened inadvertently from the legal use of Willy Pete, and that's why this thread exists. It's one of OD's favorite topics. Every time someone uses Willy Pete he drivels on about chemical weapons, when the evidence just isn't there.

Well, if you thought that we should have let the Holocaust happen because "it wasn't our problem", then you should let Israel bend Hezbollah and Lebanon over a log and ream them out - because it's not your problem.
Well put.

I have no love for those fanatics. They are reprehensible examples of humanity who long ago abandoned any semblance of reason in favor of blind hatred. The actions of both Hezbollah and the IDF are inexcusable, and, as the doctor in the OP clip said, it is the civilians who suffer.

So, in your opinion, what should Isreal do? Their primary adversaries are hiding among civilians, using them as shields, and firing weapons at Isreali civilian targets from civilian areas.

I shouldn't have to say this, but ending the holocaust was hardly the point of World War II, and I never denied the lack the unethical nature of the holocaust.:rolleyes:

Instead you said that we shouldnt have gone in to stop the Holocaust, because it wasnt our problem if European Jewry was eliminated, and the cost of the task to do so, was way too much to pay for our "non interests".

Dont talk to me about unethical.

You are the EPITOME of unethical.

Whoa, wait a minute. Israel had withdrawn from Lebanon years ago. Hezbollah then attacked across the Israeli border, killed a few Israeli soldiers and captured two more. How the fuck are you going to call Israel's actions agressive? They're defensive in nature. Israel was attacked and is now degrading the ability of their enemy to attack them again.
Please, the threat from Hezbollah is pathetic and was met with excessive force. defensive actions don’t involve the bombing of civilian targets and ground invasions. The threat was not great enough to justify the Lebanese deaths that have and will continue to occur nor the millions in property damage and lost revenue.

Instead you said that we shouldnt have gone in to stop the Holocaust, because it wasnt our problem if European Jewry was eliminated, and the cost of the task to do so, was way too much to pay for our "non interests".
You still miss the point. The Russians could have handled it on there own.

The world has changed since then. It has become more globalized; and we have reached a point in history where world peace is possible, as all aggressive nations have little ability to enforce their will in the face of a united developed world, save one, Israel.

Also, my nation’s money and resources are actively used to support one side of the conflict. It is most definitely my business.
No. You wanted to let the Nazi slaughter the Jews because it would cost us American too much money to go in and save them.

So now, let the Israelis destroy Lebanon because it would cost America alot of money to go in there and break things up.

By blowing up the kentucky fried in Tyre.....the Airport, and a large number of places not directly linked to Hezbollah, thus ensuring recruits for them to replace their losses...


By hiding and fireing among the Lebanese civilian population, they themselves have made the areas legitimate targets.

So, in your opinion, what should Isreal do? Their primary adversaries are hiding among civilians, using them as shields, and firing weapons at Isreali civilian targets from civilian areas.

According to the IDF, who seem to have a far higher ratio of civillian to military casualties to their name than Hezbollah so far, and on a far greater scale.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/VIDEO__Lebanese_Doctor_Says_Phosphorus_0724.html

We went after Saddam under the claim he had chemical weapons. Now what are we going to do with Israel now that we KNOW they are using them?

Everyone has White Phospherus. Even Saddam. Saddam did use them too so.....

You still miss the point. The Russians could have handled it on there own.
The Russians werent going to save prisoners from the holocaust...they would have been just as bad. There were reports of holocaust prisoners fleeing with their guards when the Russians came into the camps.

We did it because it was the right thing to do, regardless of money....

Please, the threat from Hezbollah is pathetic and was met with excessive force. defensive actions don’t involve the bombing of civilian targets and ground invasions. The threat was not great enough to justify the Lebanese deaths that have and will continue to occur nor the millions in property damage and lost revenue.

So how many Isreali civilians have to die by indescriminate Hezbollah rockets until it becomes "justified"?

Please, the threat from Hezbollah is pathetic and was met with excessive force. defensive actions don’t involve the bombing of civilian targets and ground invasions. The threat was not great enough to justify the Lebanese deaths that have and will continue to occur nor the millions in property damage and lost revenue.
The threat is that Hezbollah is keeping 12,000 rockets in situ as what they view to be a deterrent against Israel, and, at the same time violating the concept of deterrence by repeatedly launching quasi-military raids into Northern Israel, much as they have been doing for years. Olmert got sick and tired of it, and decided to take away Hezbollah's "shield" to make it so they'd stop making these raids into Israel. As a secondary effect, he has felt the need to cripple the infrastructure hezbollah uses to transport the damn things, which includes airports, bridges and railways.

The Russians werent going to save prisoners from the holocaust...they would have been just as bad. There were reports of holocaust prisoners fleeing with their guards when the Russians came into the camps.

We did it because it was the right thing to do, regardless of money....
Aye, Stalin hated Jews as much as Hitler did. He cooked up "The Doctor's Plot" as a way to kill all the Jews in Russia, but also as a trigger to start a war with the west. Fortunately he died before the plan could come to fruition.

By blowing up the kentucky fried in Tyre.....the Airport, and a large number of places not directly linked to Hezbollah, thus ensuring recruits for them to replace their losses...
The airport was used to bring in rockets from Syria and Iran. As for places "not directly linked with Hezbollah", terrorist organizations are by nature secretive. They like to hide among the people. If there was intelligence that Hezbollah had stored some rockets in some apartment complex, or some hezbollassholes were hiding in a certain bunker under a mosque, yeah, Israel can and should bomb them.

According to the IDF, who seem to have a far higher ratio of civillian to military casualties to their name than Hezbollah so far, and on a far greater scale.

No, this is according to the UN.

http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/24/ap2900705.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060725/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel

"Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children," he said. "I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don't think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men."

According to the IDF, who seem to have a far higher ratio of civillian to military casualties to their name than Hezbollah so far, and on a far greater scale.

And thus the big difference between using unguided rockets into populated towns and guided munitions in populated towns. One is totally inaccurate and the other has a much better chance of hitting its target. When your target is in downtown Beirut and you use a guided munition, your chances of civilian casualties goes up. If your target is in Haifa and you use an unguided munition, the chance of civilian casualties goes down.

Aye, Stalin hated Jews as much as Hitler did. He cooked up "The Doctor's Plot" as a way to kill all the Jews in Russia, but also as a trigger to start a war with the west. Fortunately he died before the plan could come to fruition.
Undelia lives in his own little world, a world where he actually beleives that if we sat World War II out, everything would have been fine.:rolleyes:

Regardless of the fact that Europe would have become totally Nazi or Communist, or the fact that even more of Europe would have been destroyed in fighting than was, or the fact that European Jewry would have been completly eradicated.:rolleyes:

I pity the people living on hidden Hezbollah ammo dumps. South Lebanon is probably got underground bunkers full of missiles.

Please, the threat from Hezbollah is pathetic and was met with excessive force. defensive actions don’t involve the bombing of civilian targets and ground invasions. The threat was not great enough to justify the Lebanese deaths that have and will continue to occur nor the millions in property damage and lost revenue.
Gee, an organization with a credible military force and the support of at least two nation states that is dedicated to destroying Israel intitiates raids across Israel's border is a pathetic threat? So when are the Israelis allowed to fight back? Do they have to wait until their towns and cities are burned to the ground?

Gee, an organization with a credible military force and the support of at least two nation states that is dedicated to destroying Israel intitiates raids across Israel's border is a pathetic threat? So when are the Israelis allowed to fight back? Do they have to wait until their towns and cities are burned to the ground?
Dont you see? Thats what he wants!
Then there would be no Israel to worry about and then, according to him, we would have "Peace" in the Middle East.:rolleyes:

I pity the people living on hidden Hezbollah ammo dumps. South Lebanon is probably got underground bunkers full of missiles.
Not just bunkers, but they also stash the rockets in vacant and occupied apartments, they store them in garages, in homes, in shops, in factories. They don't follow the protocols of war that any major power does. They don't give a fuck that they're putting civilians in harms way just by putting the rockets there, even without the potential for an Israeli airstrike. The damn things are known to have accidents. What happens if a Katyusha accidentally detonates in a crowded apartment complex? It gets blamed on the Israelis.

Dont you see? Thats what he wants!
Then there would be no Israel to worry about and then, according to him, we would have "Peace" in the Middle East.:rolleyes:
Yeah, I'm getting that feeling about him too.

I'd like to point out that if Hezbollah started their own military bases and moved their aggressive warfare to areas away from civilians they would have gotten their tits blown off long ago. :p

Not just bunkers, but they also stash the rockets in vacant and occupied apartments, they store them in garages, in homes, in shops, in factories. They don't follow the protocols of war that any major power does. They don't give a fuck that they're putting civilians in harms way just by putting the rockets there, even without the potential for an Israeli airstrike. The damn things are known to have accidents. What happens if a Katyusha accidentally detonates in a crowded apartment complex? It gets blamed on the Israelis.

Like Palestine then? Weapons everywhere and no one really in control of the place.

I pity the people living on hidden Hezbollah ammo dumps. South Lebanon is probably got underground bunkers full of missiles.

Just like Saddam had WMDs.

Yeah, I'm getting that feeling about him too.
He is one of those "Israels creation was a mistake" types...he has already stated it.
His kind come and go, but nobody will take them seriously when it comes to this, because they dwell on the past, and, like the arabs, dont recognize Israel as a legit country that, whether they like it or not, IS going to live and thrive in todays world.

Some of the people on this thread seem to think that Israel isn't doing anything to prevent civilian casualties. On the contrary, they're using leaflets and even phone calls to warn people to leave areas that will be bombed.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/7/22/worldupdates/2006-07-22T025350Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_-260565-1&sec=worldupdates

I'd like to point out that if Hezbollah started their own military bases and moved their aggressive warfare to areas away from civilians they would have gotten their tits blown off long ago. :p
Yes, I think they figured that out too...which is why they hide behind women and children, the fucking cowards.

Some of the people on this thread seem to think that Israel isn't doing anything to prevent civilian casualties. On the contrary, they're using leaflets and even phone calls to warn people to leave areas that will be bombed.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/7/22/worldupdates/2006-07-22T025350Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_-260565-1&sec=worldupdates

And destroyig roads and means of escape. :p

And destroyig roads and means of escape. :p
....and means of a way to get weapons and/or troops into the country.

And destroyig roads and means of escape. :p

Israel isn't one to do things by half.

The Russians werent going to save prisoners from the holocaust...they would have been just as bad. There were reports of holocaust prisoners fleeing with their guards when the Russians came into the camps.

We did it because it was the right thing to do, regardless of money....
You really think the holocaust had anything to do with the US's decision to go to war? Most people in the US didn't even know about it, mostly because our leaders didn't want them to know. Once we were involved, of course liberating the camps was the right thing to do, and one of the few good things that did come from the war, but guess what? We waited as long as possible to do that to. Too busy bombing Dresden.
Gee, an organization with a credible military force and the support of at least two nation states that is dedicated to destroying Israel intitiates raids across Israel's border is a pathetic threat? So when are the Israelis allowed to fight back? Do they have to wait until their towns and cities are burned to the ground?
The deaths caused by Hezbollah will pale in comparison to the long lasting effects of Israel’s actions by the time this "war" is through.

Just like Saddam had WMDs.

Well, according to Hezbollah news briefs, they've got thousands of rockets. The UN even states that Hezbollah brags about hiding among civilians.

They're being kept somewhere.

Just like Saddam had WMDs.
You see, there's a difference between Iraq's WMD's and Hezbollah's Rockets. The first being that in Iraq we had not seen the use of bio/chem weapons for a decade, as well as vehement denials that they had the weapons. With Hezbollah, we're seeing the use of their missiles on a daily basis, with some six-hundred having been fired into Israel in the past few days, and Hassan Nasrallah going about boasting of the size of his 12,000 missile arsenal.

Yes, I think they figured that out too...which is why they hide behind women and children, the fucking cowards.

They also have no means of engaging in military-on-military warfare. They have unguided munitions. All they can do is lob them across the border. They don't have artillery, radar, helicoters and jets by which they can attack the Israeli military. As a matter of fact, this whole hullabaloo started when they attacked soldiers! :p

Well, according to Hezbollah news briefs, they've got thousands of rockets. The UN even states that Hezbollah brags about hiding among civilians.

They're being kept somewhere.

And they are being used. Haifa has been hit a bit.

....and means of a way to get weapons and/or troops into the country.

And civilians out.

The deaths caused by Hezbollah will pale in comparison to the long lasting effects of Israel’s actions by the time this "war" is through.

By hiding among the civilians, they are causing the civilian deaths. Hopefully what the UN has stated is true and the Lebanese are wising up to Hezbollah.

They also have no means of engaging in military-on-military warfare. They have unguided munitions. All they can do is lob them across the border. They don't have artillery, radar, helicoters and jets by which they can attack the Israeli military. As a matter of fact, this whole hullabaloo started when they attacked soldiers! :p
Sounds like serious retardosity on the part of Hezbollah then.

You really think the holocaust had anything to do with the US's decision to go to war? Most people in the US didn't even know about it, mostly because our leaders didn't want them to know. Once we were involved, of course liberating the camps was the right thing to do, and one of the few good things that did come from the war, but guess what? We waited as long as possible to do that to. Too busy bombing Dresden.
Wrong, just wrong.

The camps were not exactly close to where the Allies were fighting. Its not that we waited aslong as we could to liberate the camps, its that they werent exactly next door to Paris. Do you know even WHERE the camps even were?

And Dresden was payback.

Rockets and missiles raining on cities killing women and children doesnt deserve its own thread...phospherouse burns does.:rolleyes:


Hezbollah Invaded Israel from Lebenon , killed and kidnapped its soldiers and has fired over one thousand rockets and missiles into Israeli cities .

I guess thats not a pertanent piece of information to be used when placing the situation in the proper context .

When do we get a thread condeming Hezbollah ?

Or is that not trendy ? Too logical ? Conformist and proper ?

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/VIDEO__Lebanese_Doctor_Says_Phosphorus_0724.html

We went after Saddam under the claim he had chemical weapons. Now what are we going to do with Israel now that we KNOW they are using them?

Clearly you're of the illusion that all nations start out morally equal. For example, one of the claims made upon invading Iraq was that they were developing nuclear weapons. On the other hand, Britain, for example, has nuclear weapons. Did we invade them? Nope.

And yes, a country's moral value is, in this current day and age, determined by how closely they fall into line with the West, specifically the United American Empire.

They also have no means of engaging in military-on-military warfare. They have unguided munitions. All they can do is lob them across the border. They don't have artillery, radar, helicoters and jets by which they can attack the Israeli military. As a matter of fact, this whole hullabaloo started when they attacked soldiers! :p

Actually is started because they captured soldiers on the Isreali side of the border (while still lobbing rockets) and bringing them back to Lebanon.

<snip>

The deaths caused by Hezbollah will pale in comparison to the long lasting effects of Israel’s actions by the time this "war" is through.
Yeah, that's called winning the war.

They also have no means of engaging in military-on-military warfare. They have unguided munitions. All they can do is lob them across the border. They don't have artillery, radar, helicoters and jets by which they can attack the Israeli military. As a matter of fact, this whole hullabaloo started when they attacked soldiers! :p
Israel is TRYING to only attack soldiers but they cant because the "soldiers" are hiding among the civilians!!! Dont you understand that?!

Sounds like serious retardosity on the part of Hezbollah then.

If Hezbollah had the option and chose this method of warfare, I'd have no sympathy. Much like the total lack of sympathy I have for palestinans who fight for their freedom by bombing malls and busses in Israel.

But in the cas of Hezbollah, their beef is with Israel over land Israel occupies. They really have no choice but to fight Israel for what they claim is theirs. ANd they are fightingby the only means availableto them. If you want a more ethical war, give Hezbollah more ethical weapons.

Actually is started because they captured soldiers on the Isreali side of the border (while still lobbing rockets) and bringing them back to Lebanon.

You'd rather they killed em in cold blood?

Yeah, that's called winning the war.
They will cripple Lebonon. Why are you on Isreal's side in this? Why do they matter, but the Lebonese do not?
Wrong, just wrong.

The camps were not exactly close to where the Allies were fighting. Its not that we waited aslong as we could to liberate the camps, its that they werent exactly next door to Paris. Do you know even WHERE the camps even were?
They could have bombed the railroads. The allies did have air superiority. Mussolini did more to save Jews than FDR.
And Dresden was payback.
I wasn’t aware that the citizens of the entirely military target free and strategically unimportant Dresden were the ones who fired rockets at London.

Actually is started because they captured soldiers on the Isreali side of the border (while still lobbing rockets) and bringing them back to Lebanon.

Killed eight and captured two .

Israel is TRYING to only attack soldiers but they cant because the "soldiers" are hiding among the civilians!!! Dont you understand that?!

They're hiding among the civilians because they HAVE TO! Don't you understand THAT?

You'd rather they killed em in cold blood?

Let's look at the Geneva and Hague Conventions, shall we?

It's legal to capture soldiers - but, it's illegal to hold them for ransom or other demands, as Hezbollah and the Palestinians in Gaza have done.

It's also legal to shoot soldiers in combat.

Having fun with that new job, handing out tickets for speeding at the Indianapolis 500?

If Hezbollah had the option and chose this method of warfare, I'd have no sympathy. Much like the total lack of sympathy I have for palestinans who fight for their freedom by bombing malls and busses in Israel.

But in the cas of Hezbollah, their beef is with Israel over land Israel occupies. They really have no choice but to fight Israel for what they claim is theirs. ANd they are fightingby the only means availableto them. If you want a more ethical war, give Hezbollah more ethical weapons.

So it's legitimate to fire hundreds of rockets into civilian territory over a small piece of disputed land even after Isreal has withdrawn from Lebanon? It's legitimate to regularly fire rockets at IDF forces over the established border and conduct raids?

They're using the farms as an excuse to stay "legitimate" after Isreal withdrew from Lebanon.

You'd rather they killed em in cold blood?

Yes, that's exactly what I said. :rolleyes:

Howabout they stop making raids across the border and stop firing rockets into Isreali cities? It might make them seem more "ethical".

They will cripple Lebonon. Why are you on Isreal's side in this? Why do they matter, but the Lebonese do not?

<snip>
Because Israel gave back to Lebanon all the Lebanese land that they occupied and Lebanon had an obligation to disarm Hezbollah. Even if they couldn't do so they should have moved Hezbollah back from the border and placed Lebanese military in control of that border. They failed to live up to their responsibility and Hezbollah launched an attack on Israel as a result. Much like when Afghanistan failed to disarm Al Qaeda people on their soil and that resulted in an attack on the USA. Just as the USA was justified in attacking Afghanistan, so Israel is justified in punishing Lebanon.

If Hezbollah had the option and chose this method of warfare, I'd have no sympathy. Much like the total lack of sympathy I have for palestinans who fight for their freedom by bombing malls and busses in Israel.

But in the cas of Hezbollah, their beef is with Israel over land Israel occupies. They really have no choice but to fight Israel for what they claim is theirs. ANd they are fightingby the only means availableto them. If you want a more ethical war, give Hezbollah more ethical weapons.


Right ...so this...

Formed in 1982 in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, this Lebanon-based radical Shia group takes its ideological inspiration from the Iranian revolution and the teachings of the late Ayatollah Khomeini. The Majlis al-Shura, or Consultative Council, is the group’s highest governing body and is led by Secretary General Hasan Nasrallah. Hizballah is dedicated to liberating Jerusalem and eliminating Israel, and has formally advocated ultimate establishment of Islamic rule in Lebanon. Nonetheless, Hizballah has actively participated in Lebanon’s political system since 1992. This radical Shia is dedicated to creation of Iranian-style Islamic republic in Lebanon and removal of all non-Islamic influences from area. It is strongly anti-Western and anti-Israeli.



is just fiction ....

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hizballah.htm


Terrorist ethics...I call oxymoron on that .

They're hiding among the civilians because they WANT TO! Don't you understand THAT?

Fixed.

If Hezbollah had the option and chose this method of warfare, I'd have no sympathy. Much like the total lack of sympathy I have for palestinans who fight for their freedom by bombing malls and busses in Israel.

But in the cas of Hezbollah, their beef is with Israel over land Israel occupies. They really have no choice but to fight Israel for what they claim is theirs. ANd they are fightingby the only means availableto them. If you want a more ethical war, give Hezbollah more ethical weapons.
Over territories that are no longer the reason for Hezbollah's original dispute. Israel had withdrawn from Lebanon and half decade ago.

They're hiding among the civilians because they HAVE TO! Don't you understand THAT?
The UN passed a resolution that Hezbollah was to be disarmed. They aren't a legitimate army. If I rob a bank and the cops show up am I justified in taking hostages so the cops won't kick in the door and come in shooting? Same deal. Hezbollah isn't legitimate. They're terrorists and they're using the civilians around them for protection the same way a cornered criminal may use hostages to keep the cops at bay.

So it's legitimate to fire hundreds of rockets into civilian territory over a small piece of disputed land even after Isreal has withdrawn from Lebanon? It's legitimate to regularly fire rockets at IDF forces over the established border and conduct raids?

They're using the farms as an excuse to stay "legitimate" after Isreal withdrew from Lebanon.

I didn't say it was legitimate. I said they had no legitimate means of combat available to them.

The UN passed a resolution that Hezbollah was to be disarmed. They aren't a legitimate army. If I rob a bank and the cops show up am I justified in taking hostages so the cops won't kick in the door and come in shooting? Same deal. Hezbollah isn't legitimate. They're terrorists and they're using the civilians around them for protection the same way a cornered criminal may use hostages to keep the cops at bay.

Is Lebanon part of the UN? I honestly don't know...

Is Lebanon part of the UN? I honestly don't know...
It is.

They're hiding among the civilians because they HAVE TO! Don't you understand THAT?


Aside from doing it deliberately to get world opinion against Israel and to increase civilain casulalties to put pressure on Lebenons government and other Arab countries to be forced to intervene....why do they HAVE to do it ?

Do you UNDERSTAND that ?

It is a deliberate tactic ...and its not the first time civilians were used as a weapon in war .

Look around a little at some history..the terrorist do..it seems they study much harder than you do .

I didn't say it was legitimate. I said they had no legitimate means of combat available to them.
So Israel has to follow the rules, but Hezbollah doesn't?

Over territories that are no longer the reason for Hezbollah's original dispute. Israel had withdrawn from Lebanon and half decade ago.

According to Israel. Hezbollah believes differently. Unfortunately, there seems to be little diplomatic dialogue to settle the dispute by non-violent means. :p

They could have bombed the railroads. The allies did have air superiority. Mussolini did more to save Jews than FDR.

I wasn’t aware that the citizens of the entirely military target free and strategically unimportant Dresden were the ones who fired rockets at London.
He still enacted the "race laws" which persecuted Italiain Jewry.
I assume, what you arnt aware of would fill several books. I dont care about the strategic importance of Dresden, we just wanted to show the Nazis that we could fight back and strike at their heartland, bring about death and destruction to their people, like they had done to ours...and we did. And that, I am not sorry for.

So Israel has to follow the rules, but Hezbollah doesn't?

Israel has the MEANS to follow the rules. Hebollah wouldn't last a day if they played by the rules. What are they gonna do, run across the border making "thp-thp-thp-thp" helicopter sounds with their mouths? :P

I didn't say it was legitimate. I said they had no legitimate means of combat available to them.


They are armed better than the Lebanese ARMY...so say again ?

And BTW..the Iranians that the Israelis killed and shipped back to Iran trained them and equiped them very well..they have held their own against Israel for two weeks with no sign of slowing down or being "defeated".

The US demolished the Iraqi army in how much time ?

You make a HUGE error underestimating Hezbollah .

They're hiding among the civilians because they HAVE TO! Don't you understand THAT?
No. Fuck that. An illegitamite terrorist army hiding among civilians in fear of superior force from a legit defensive operation IS not right...its bullshit.

Aside from doing it deliberately to get world opinion against Israel and to increase civilain casulalties to put pressure on Lebenons government and other Arab countries to be forced to intervene....why do they HAVE to do it ?

Do you UNDERSTAND that ?

It is a deliberate tactic ...and its not the first time civilians were used as a weapon in war .

Look around a little at some history..the terrorist do..it seems they study much harder than you do .

How long would hezbollah last on legitimate military bases and traditional military installations? Especially keeping in mind that they have no air force, no artillery, no armor and no defenses?

Israel has the MEANS to follow the rules. Hebollah wouldn't last a day if they played by the rules. What are they gonna do, run across the border making "thp-thp-thp-thp" helicopter sounds with their mouths? :P


Here's an IDEA....



Dont start a war on someone elses soil you cant hope to win .

Negotiate using peacefull means.

They are armed better than the Lebanese ARMY...so say again ?

And BTW..the Iranians that the Israelis killed and shipped back to Iran trained them and equiped them very well..they have held their own against Israel for two weeks with no sign of slowing down or being "defeated".

The US demolished the Iraqi army in how much time ?

You make a HUGE error underestimating Hezbollah .

When I se the Hezbollan Airforce in action ,I will rethink my stance. :p

Israel has the MEANS to follow the rules. Hebollah wouldn't last a day if they played by the rules. What are they gonna do, run across the border making "thp-thp-thp-thp" helicopter sounds with their mouths? :P
More like not stash their weapons and hide their fighters in the midst of civilian populations

Here's an IDEA....



Dont start a war on someone elses soil you cant hope to win .

Negotiate using peacefull means.

"Can we please have our land back?"

"No. Taco?" *hands you a taco*

When I se the Hezbollan Airforce in action ,I will rethink my stance. :p


Hezbollah is a militia / terrorist organization with a political wing..they should fly that..try politics the wars killing them .:p

More like not stash their weapons and hide their fighters in the midst of civilian populations

Hiding them in a warehouse on the outskirts of town is a great way to get them blown up. Safer to hide under the playground. :p

According to Israel. Hezbollah believes differently. Unfortunately, there seems to be little diplomatic dialogue to settle the dispute by non-violent means. :p
Of course, Israel would have been willing to engage in dialogue if Hezbollah were to stop shooting rockets at Israeli cities. The Israelis have exercised tremendous restraint for the better part of a decade, and they got sick of it.

You don't need tanks and such to wage a war. The French Resistance and the Taliban after Afghanistan was taken over (well, for a while) did pretty well.

He still enacted the "race laws" which persecuted Italiain Jewry.
But he saved thousands from death. FDR could have cared less.
I assume, what you arnt aware of would fill several books. I dont care about the strategic importance of Dresden, we just wanted to show the Nazis that we could fight back and strike at their heartland, bring about death and destruction to their people, like they had done to ours...and we did. And that, I am not sorry for.
Can the destruction of a beautiful city and the deaths thousands of people be justified over a pissing contest?
How did the Nazis strike at the heartland of the US?
How can anyone still advocate Old Testament ideas of collective punishment?
Your post makes me ask all these questions and more.

Hiding them in a warehouse on the outskirts of town is a great way to get them blown up. Safer to hide under the playground. :p
Have I mentioned how much you pwn lately?

Hezbollah is a militia / terrorist organization with a political wing..they should fly that..try politics the wars killing them .:p

Nah. That's the best part: The Israelis, by attacking civilian population centers in their attempts to kill the terrorists are ensuring the next generation of anti-israeli terrorists. Isn't it a lovely circle?

"Can we please have our land back?"

"No. Taco?" *hands you a taco*


Formed in 1982 in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, this Lebanon-based radical Shia group takes its ideological inspiration from the Iranian revolution and the teachings of the late Ayatollah Khomeini. The Majlis al-Shura, or Consultative Council, is the group’s highest governing body and is led by Secretary General Hasan Nasrallah. Hizballah is dedicated to liberating Jerusalem and eliminating Israel, and has formally advocated ultimate establishment of Islamic rule in Lebanon. Nonetheless, Hizballah has actively participated in Lebanon’s political system since 1992. This radical Shia is dedicated to creation of Iranian-style Islamic republic in Lebanon and removal of all non-Islamic influences from area. It is strongly anti-Western and anti-Israeli

What land ?


Please Mr. and Mrs. Israeli's go out into the streets and die so I can go back to my nice farm in Iran...What land ? The land the UN gave to SYRIA ??

Why didnt they invade Syria ?

Why not the UN ? The UN could use a good invasion .

Hezbolllah should be ashamed of themselves. They should've known that Israel was not going to tolerate such an act but they did it anyway.

Israel needs to tone down their responses just a tad as well.

Hopefully, a cease-fire can be negotiated.

Can the destruction of a beautiful city and the deaths thousands of people be justified over a pissing contest?

Ask the residents of Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki.

This isn't a pissing contest. For Israel, it's a matter of survival. Hezbollah's stated goal is the destruction of the state of Israel, and the death of every Jew.

Of course, Israel would have been willing to engage in dialogue if Hezbollah were to stop shooting rockets at Israeli cities. The Israelis have exercised tremendous restraint for the better part of a decade, and they got sick of it.

They won't bargain from a position of weakness. They'll stop firing missiles when an agreement is reached. And Israel won't discuss an agreement until the firing stops. Where do we go from here?

What land ?


Please Mr. and Mrs. Israeli's go out into the streets and die so I can go back to my nice farm in Iran...What land ? The land the UN gave to SYRIA ??

Why didnt they invade Syria ?

Why not the UN ? The UN could use a good invasion .

Groovy. Now go convince THEM. :)

Can the destruction of a beautiful city and the deaths thousands of people be justified over a pissing contest?
How did the Nazis strike at the heartland of the US?
How can anyone still advocate Old Testament ideas of collective punishment?
Your post makes me ask all these questions and more.

Yes...it is justified, the Nazis did horrible things, so we wanted to return the favor. It doesnt have to be the heartland of America, it could be the heartland of Denmark, or Belguim, Or Holland, Or France, or England, or Poland..ect

How can anyone argue Old Testament ides? Maybe if that anyone is Jewish???

You don't need tanks and such to wage a war. The French Resistance and the Taliban after Afghanistan was taken over (well, for a while) did pretty well.

Yes, well there were very few russian and german civilians to get in the way in Afghanistan and France. The occupiers didn't move civilians into homes and farms in the occipied land. :p

They won't bargain from a position of weakness. They'll stop firing missiles when an agreement is reached. And Israel won't discuss an agreement until the firing stops. Where do we go from here?


So ...you must ask yourself...WHY did they start a war that has them MUCH weaker than when they started and may lead to their extinction or a much diminished future role if any...Arabs dont play well with the defeated ..depending on whenever the UN or the US and NATO decide to get Israel to stop wiping them out ?

lebenon can be rebuilt ...Hezbollah may never be permited to in Lebenon .

They won't bargain from a position of weakness. They'll stop firing missiles when an agreement is reached. And Israel won't discuss an agreement until the firing stops. Where do we go from here?
Perhaps a temporary ceasefire to discuss a potential agreement. I see nothing wrong with refusing to talk until the rockets stop firing, but I do see a load of crap wrong with constantly shooting rockets until the other guy is willing to talk.

This isn't a pissing contest. For Israel, it's a matter of survival. Hezbollah's stated goal is the destruction of the state of Israel, and the death of every Jew.
Something they just aren't capable of.
Yes...it is justified, the Nazis did horrible things, so we wanted to return the favor. It doesnt have to be the heartland of America, it could be the heartland of Denmark, or Belguim, Or Holland, Or France, or England, or Poland..ect
Which would make sense if the citizens of Dresden were Nazis, or even in the military. They were not, at least not the majority, most Germans never really were.
How can anyone argue Old Testament ides? Maybe if that anyone is Jewish???
The God of the Old Testament, and indeed the Abraham God in general, seems quite fond of collective punishment. That's one of the reasons that rational people question the "mercy" aspect of the character.

So ...you must ask yourself...WHY did they start a war that has them MUCH weaker than when they started and may lead to their extinction or a much diminished future role if any...Arabs dont play well with the defeated ..depending on whenever the UN or the US and NATO decide to get Israel to stop wiping them out ?

lebenon can be rebuilt ...Hezbollah may never be permited to in Lebenon .

They weren't really given much choice. When they raided into the disputed territory and killed and captured those soldiers, I don't think they got the response they expected. Now they have no choice but to fight to the bitter end. And they will to.

They weren't really given much choice. When they raided into the disputed territory and killed and captured those soldiers, I don't think they got the response they expected. Now they have no choice but to fight to the bitter end. And they will to.
War is never what one expects it to be. You have to be able to consider the remote possibility that something will go horribly wrong with your plan. This war is a horrendous case of hubris on the part of Hezbollah. They thought they could attack Israel with impugnity on the basis of what they conceived as "deterrence", their large rocket force. They found out that they couldn't.

Phosphorus?!? Phosphorus?!? That is the height of barbarism!


i think you mean Terrorism!!:( :( :(

Something they just aren't capable of.

Because the Israelis are willing to fight them. If they weren't, then Hezbollah could just walk right into Tel Aviv and shoot every single Jew execution style.

They weren't really given much choice. When they raided into the disputed territory and killed and captured those soldiers, I don't think they got the response they expected. Now they have no choice but to fight to the bitter end. And they will to.

What's odd is that Hezbollah has no real claim to Israel, except on the basis of "Israel must be wiped off the map".

None of its members were driven off of the land where Israel is now.

It is a creation of Iran and Syria - just imagine the chaos you would get if France put the French Foreign Legion (and their families) in Alsace, and gave them rockets to fire into Germany. Imagine if none of the FFL people were originally from Alsace, but wanted to "wipe Germany off the map".

How many rockets do you think they could fire into Germany - how many suicide bombers - how many kidnappings - before Germany got really tired of it.

Hezbollah is a proxy, because Syria and Iran don't have the means to destroy Israel with their own conventional forces.

Perhaps a temporary ceasefire to discuss a potential agreement. I see nothing wrong with refusing to talk until the rockets stop firing, but I do see a load of crap wrong with constantly shooting rockets until the other guy is willing to talk. Yes.

Unfortunately, in past ceasefires between the Israelis and the Palestinians, the problem has been the cell-like nature of the combatants. A palestinian cell will ignore the ceasefire, and Israel will react unilaterally agains the whole organization and boom. The shit hits the fan again.

Most terrorist organizations are barely organized at all. They are more like hundreds or thousands of tiny groups with similar causes and motivations. Hell, they don't always get along with eachother outside of their desire to kill their common foe.

There is only one way to stop terrorism; The people of the country in question must no longer support or tolerate the presence of violent militants. The only way that will be accomplished is by isolation from the global community. Weapons won't win the war.

There is only one way to stop terrorism; The people of the country in question must no longer support or tolerate the presence of violent militants. The only way that will be accomplished is by isolation from the global community. Weapons won't win the war.

You can isolate them from the international community all you like.

Syria and Iran will still send them weapons.

War is never what one expects it to be. You have to be able to consider the remote possibility that something will go horribly wrong with your plan. This war is a horrendous case of hubris on the part of Hezbollah. They thought they could attack Israel with impugnity on the basis of what they conceived as "deterrence", their large rocket force. They found out that they couldn't.

A cell of Hezbollah. A small group within the larger. If there is any centralized leadership to Hezbollah, probably the first they heard of the attack was from CNN. :p

You can isolate them from the international community all you like.

Syria and Iran will still send them weapons.

And who sends Syria and Iran weapons?

Also, weapons don't grow food. Or buy cloth. Or any of the other activities that come with international trde. If Lebaonon, Syria, Israel, Iran want in on the international market, they are going to have to behave themselves.

A cell of Hezbollah. A small group within the larger. If there is any centralized leadership to Hezbollah, probably the first they heard of the attack was from CNN. :p
Hezbollah is far more like a state than any other terrorist organization. They have a top-down command structure, and the individual cells are very weak in comparison to the central command. They act as a mini-state, not as a classic non-governmental terrorist organzation such as al Qaeda. Central leadership does have control over their individual parts, and most likely was involved in the planning of, or authorization of the action.

*snip*

Remove now, it will get you banned.

Hezbollah is far more like a state than any other terrorist organization. They have a top-down command structure, and the individual cells are very weak in comparison to the central command. They act as a mini-state, not as a classic non-governmental terrorist organzation such as al Qaeda. Central leadership does have control over their individual parts, and most likely was involved in the planning of, or authorization of the action.

I still suspect it was a local operation.

Because the Israelis are willing to fight them. If they weren't, then Hezbollah could just walk right into Tel Aviv and shoot every single Jew execution style.
They don't need to bomb civilians to keep Hezbollah out of Tel Aviv.

i think you mean Terrorism!!:( :( :(

As opposed to what most militant muslims do? Come on. That's terrorism. This is war. Maybe you should tell Hezbollah not to stockpile their weapons and have their compounds in a densely populated city like Beirut. Did ya think of that?

They don't need to bomb civilians to keep Hezbollah out of Tel Aviv.

I'll ask again:

In your opinion, what should Isreal do? Hezbollah are hiding among the Lebanese population while lobbing hundreds of rockets at Isreali civilian population, hiding their weapons among the civilians, raiding and kidnapping Isreali forces on the Isreali side of the border.

They don't need to bomb civilians to keep Hezbollah out of Tel Aviv.
Civilians are being killed inadvertently, as a secondary result of the Israeli desire to keep Hezbollah from firing rockets into Northern Israel. What would you advocate they do? Sit there?

Most of the people criticizing Israel have no intention of criticizing Hezbollah. To them, everything is Israel's fault.
Rather, most of the people criticising Israel feel no need to criticise Hezbollah. Isn't it already a given that everyone condemns a terrorist group?

Israeli tactics, on the other hand, are endorsed by the powers that be. That requires dissent.

I'll ask again:

In your opinion, what should Isreal do? Hezbollah are hiding among the Lebanese population while lobbing hundreds of rockets at Isreali civilian population, hiding their weapons among the civilians, raiding and kidnapping Isreali forces on the Isreali side of the border.
Negotiate? Not do anything? Relocate? Not use phosphorous in civilian areas? The harm they cause by attacking Lebanon is far greater than anything Hezbollah can do to them, but I don't see how that matters. Obviously neutralizing Hezbollah is only a small part of this. Otherwise, they would have been done by now. No. There are far more ambitious motives behind the actions of the Israeli government.

Rather, most of the people criticising Israel feel no need to criticise Hezbollah. Isn't it already a given that everyone condemns a terrorist group?

I can name you 2 countries that haven't.

Israeli tactics, on the other hand, are endorsed by the powers that be. That requires dissent.

So Israel shouldn't have retaliated?

Rather, most of the people criticising Israel feel no need to criticise Hezbollah. Isn't it already a given that everyone condemns a terrorist group?

Israeli tactics, on the other hand, are endorsed by the powers that be. That requires dissent.
Well put.

Well put.
It's not a given that everyone condemns Hezbollah.

Look at the Spanish government.

Plenty of countries are NOT only NOT condemning Hezbollah, but actually saying that the Hezbollah are doing NOTHING wrong.

Rather, most of the people criticising Israel feel no need to criticise Hezbollah. Isn't it already a given that everyone condemns a terrorist group?

Israeli tactics, on the other hand, are endorsed by the powers that be. That requires dissent.

The point is is that Hezbollah have been attacking Isreali citizens for years even after the withdrawal from Lebanon on weak excuses. Most of those who make the claims against Isreal on this board don't offer up any other method to stop these groups from continously attacking them except for what amounts to "Isreal should go away."

I'll ask you: In your opinion, what should Isreal do in response to hundreds of rocket attacks, border raids, et al against an enemy that prides itself in hiding behind civilians?

I'll ask again:

In your opinion, what should Isreal do? Hezbollah are hiding among the Lebanese population while lobbing hundreds of rockets at Isreali civilian population, hiding their weapons among the civilians, raiding and kidnapping Isreali forces on the Isreali side of the border.

What should Israel do? Israel should contact it's allies(while they still have some) and call on the UN to issue an embargo. No trade at all with Lebanon. If Syria and/or Iran violate the embargo, they join it. Remove them from the UN. Nations that support terrorism will be removed and isolated from the global community and international trade. Nothing from them can be bought or sold until such a time as militant elements of government cna be removed.

The UN has to do it. Anything Israel or the United States does will only feed the hate. For bonus points, if the plans were forwarded by Russia or China, that would help too.

Negotiate? Not do anything? Relocate? Not use phosphorous in civilian areas? The harm they cause by attacking Lebanon is far greater than anything Hezbollah can do to them, but I don't see how that matters. Obviously neutralizing Hezbollah is only a small part of this. Otherwise, they would have been done by now. No. There are far more ambitious motives behind the actions of the Israeli government.
Warfare is not something where you respond to your enemy in equal amounts to how he acts to you. In warfare you want to blast your enemy to smithereens with the use of superior firepower and tactics. Not play fair.

It's not a given that everyone condemns Hezbollah.
If you look at the reasons the people on this forum give for condemning Israel, it isn’t a stretch to assume they feel the same way about Hezbollah.
Look at the Spanish government.
The Spainish government consists of a bunch of Socialist wannabees. Who cares what they think?

Please, the threat from Hezbollah is pathetic and was met with excessive force. defensive actions don’t involve the bombing of civilian targets and ground invasions. The threat was not great enough to justify the Lebanese deaths that have and will continue to occur nor the millions in property damage and lost revenue.

R u serious!!! if mexico was firing missles at the u.s.a or kidnapped american solideirs daily, what do you expect the u.s.a would do??? sit around and drink coffee!!! the u.s would wipe mexico off the map in a minute.

lets address the idea that is good to let terrorists attack you and do nothing. seems like a good idea if you wanna get slaughtered.

What should Israel do? Israel should contact it's allies(while they still have some) and call on the UN to issue an embargo. No trade at all with Lebanon. If Syria and/or Iran violate the embargo, they join it. Remove them from the UN. Nations that support terrorism will be removed and isolated from the global community and international trade. Nothing from them can be bought or sold until such a time as militant elements of government cna be removed.

The UN has to do it. Anything Israel or the United States does will only feed the hate. For bonus points, if the plans were forwarded by Russia or China, that would help too.
The evidence of your pwnage piles higher.

Negotiate?

Tried that, the attacks continued.

Not do anything?

So let Hezbollah keep killing civilians and kidnapping soldiers?

Relocate?

To where? Why should they leave?

Not use phosphorous in civilian areas?

Against a foe that is purposely hiding behind civilians and using civilian areas to attack Isreal.

Great plans. You just proved my previous post.

The harm they cause by attacking Lebanon is far greater than anything Hezbollah can do to them, but I don't see how that matters. Obviously neutralizing Hezbollah is only a small part of this. Otherwise, they would have been done by now. No. There are far more ambitious motives behind the actions of the Israeli government.

You mean like wiping Isreal off the map? Oh, wait, that's Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, etc.

What should Israel do? Israel should contact it's allies(while they still have some) and call on the UN to issue an embargo. No trade at all with Lebanon. If Syria and/or Iran violate the embargo, they join it. Remove them from the UN. Nations that support terrorism will be removed and isolated from the global community and international trade. Nothing from them can be bought or sold until such a time as militant elements of government cna be removed.

The UN has to do it. Anything Israel or the United States does will only feed the hate. For bonus points, if the plans were forwarded by Russia or China, that would help too.
Of course Russia and China are the patron saints of Iran and Syria in the UN. They will never vote against either country in any substantial way.

Just like Saddam had WMDs.

what the hell do you thing hizzbulah did for the past 6 years?

The evidence of your pwnage piles higher.

:D

Hezbollah WANTS Israel to react like a poked bear. So don't. Hit them where it really hurts; In their wallets. In their local support. :)

What should Israel do? Israel should contact it's allies(while they still have some) and call on the UN to issue an embargo. No trade at all with Lebanon. If Syria and/or Iran violate the embargo, they join it. Remove them from the UN. Nations that support terrorism will be removed and isolated from the global community and international trade. Nothing from them can be bought or sold until such a time as militant elements of government cna be removed.

The UN has to do it. Anything Israel or the United States does will only feed the hate. For bonus points, if the plans were forwarded by Russia or China, that would help too.

Being that numerous countries on the "human rights commission" are terrorist supporters, they'll never call for an embargo of any of those nations never mind enforce one. You know this as well as I.

Of course Russia and China are the patron saints of Iran and Syria in the UN. They will never vote against either country in any substantial way.

That will have to change. I think they are the only ones that can win the war against terrorism.

Being that numerous countries on the "human rights commission" are terrorist supporters, they'll never call for an embargo of any of those nations never mind enforce one. You know this as well as I.

That will have to change.

:D

Hezbollah WANTS Israel to react like a poked bear. So don't. Hit them where it really hurts; In their wallets. In their local support. :)

You honestly think the UN will stand up and do something? Lebanon was instructed by the UN to disarm Hezbollah, they didn't/couldn't. The UN did nothing. They will continue to do nothing.

Against a foe that is purposely hiding behind civilians and using civilian areas to attack Isreal.
Why use phosphorous at all?
You mean like wiping Isreal off the map? Oh, wait, that's Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, etc.
No, like plunging the entire region into war, including the US occupied Iraq. That's the only reason for their continued aggression that I can see.

Looks like we might interpose some 30,000 troops in between the warring factions...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/25/mideast.diplomacy/index.html

That will have to change.

It's "had to change" for years. They reorganized their commision and put the same fools in charge of it that were before.

You honestly think the UN will stand up and do something? Lebanon was instructed by the UN to disarm Hezbollah, they didn't/couldn't. The UN did nothing. They will continue to do nothing.

Which is very sad that they do not do anything when they are supposed to do something.

PARIS, July 24 (Reuters) - Lebanon's president accused Israel on Monday of using phosphorous bombs in its 13-day offensive and urged the United Nations to demand an immediate ceasefire.

"According to the Geneva Convention, when they use phosphorous bombs.. , is that allowed against civilians and children?" President Emile Lahoud asked on France's RFI radio.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said arms used in Lebanon did not contravene international norms.

sources: Reuters.com / OcceanNEWS©2006

my2cents: Geneva?.. Geneva is nowhere to be seen.. is she?
she likes to hide.. and show up briefly.. whenever convinient..

THEY USED WHAT???????? Louise Arbour did say that there was a strong possibilty that war crimes have been committed and that certain political leaders could be held responsible. But in saying that I'm not sure Israeli and Hazballah leaders will ever go to a War Crimes Tribunal.

Why use phosphorous at all?
In the role that is sanctioned by the UN and Geneva Conventions. As a flare and as a smokescreen.

You honestly think the UN will stand up and do something? Lebanon was instructed by the UN to disarm Hezbollah, they didn't/couldn't. The UN did nothing. They will continue to do nothing.

That will have to change.

Looks like we might interpose some 30,000 troops in between the warring factions...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/25/mideast.diplomacy/index.html

A band-aid. A good band-aid, but still a band-aid.

It's "had to change" for years. They reorganized their commision and put the same fools in charge of it that were before.

That will have to change too. :p

That will have to change.
And who will change it? The UN? They've already shown how efficient they are at policing themselves.

That will have to change.
I agree. But unfortunately even UN Reform is completely inadequate, and can't deal with countries like the US and Israel (I'm not critising US citizens or saying only the US and Israel do it just using them as an example before anyone gets carried away) who violate resolutions etc.

And who will change it? The UN? They've already shown how efficient they are at policing themselves.

Well, let me put it this way; The war against terrorism will never be won until these things change. So I guess they will change when there is a strong enough will to change them.

And thus the big difference between using unguided rockets into populated towns and guided munitions in populated towns. One is totally inaccurate and the other has a much better chance of hitting its target. When your target is in downtown Beirut and you use a guided munition, your chances of civilian casualties goes up. If your target is in Haifa and you use an unguided munition, the chance of civilian casualties goes down.

aiming at civs=hezzbollah thank god the do not have better missles.

hiding in a civillian area means if you hide a missle depot in a aperment complex means people are going to die no matter what.

sidenote hezzbollah has hit an arab village near haifa.

I agree. But unfortunately even UN Reform is completely inadequate, and can't deal with countries like the US and Israel (I'm not critising US citizens or saying only the US and Israel do it just using them as an example before anyone gets carried away) who violate resolutions etc.

There are very few countries that can exist entirely without international trade. The United States is one of them. But that existence would come at massive cost. Every country in the world must bend to the financial power of a united global front. It's the most powerful weapon in the world.

aiming at civs=hezzbollah thank god the do not have better missles.

Rumor on the vine has it that they do have better rockets.

hiding in a civillian area means if you hide a missle depot in a aperment complex means people are going to die no matter what.

So very true. Sad isn't it? :(

sidenote hezzbollah has hit an arab village near haifa.

On top of hitting Nazareth earlier. *Sighs*

Lebanese Doctor Shows Phosphorus Weapons Wounds

CNN video correspondent, Karl Penhaul, follows a family that had been mistakenly caught in an Israeli air strike. The doctor treating the family says that there is phosphorus in the weapons that cause extremely painful burns on it's victims.

(WARNING: This news report, originally aired on CNN International, contains graphic images.)
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/VIDEO__Lebanese_Doctor_Says_Phosphorus_0724.html

sources: CNN-int./youTube.comI remember this being mentioned on German television. The reporter in Lebanon made sure to tell that most if not all doctors in that area are working for Hezbullah, possibly also as propagandists.

After watching that, yes, it's quite possible he has ulterior motives for saying giving his expert opinion. Doesn't mean he's lying, but doesn't mean you can take his word for truth either.

Looks like we might interpose some 30,000 troops in between the warring factions...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/25/mideast.diplomacy/index.html

We don't need no stinkin' 30,000 troops!
"We" have Condy!
Send Condy. Hell, chuck in a Kissinger and a Vance as well.
Problem solved.
<pffft>

We don't need no stinkin' 30,000 troops!
"We" have Condy!
Send Condy. Hell, chuck in a Kissinger and a Vance as well.
Problem solved.
<pffft>

This isn't even remotely funny.

We don't need no stinkin' 30,000 troops!
"We" have Condy!
Send Condy. Hell, chuck in a Kissinger and a Vance as well.
Problem solved.
<pffft>
Their faces alone will make Hezbollah turn away from the Israeli border and look in the other direction.

This isn't even remotely funny.

I disagree. Seeing Condi and friends in flak jackets bearing automatic weapons is quite amusing. :)

I disagree. Seeing Condi and friends in flak jackets bearing automatic weapons is quite amusing. :)

Maybe to you but not to me.

Maybe to you but not to me.

Okay. You'll have to go. *adds you to the 'list'*

This isn't even remotely funny.

It wasn't meant to be funny.
If it was a joke, it would have a :D or a :p after it.
I'm saying, Condaleeza Rice will fail where better SoS's have failed.
It had a <pffft> after it. That's a exhalative noise of derision.
If the US meant to send troops, they'd just do it.
Thanks for not taking me seriously. :eek: ;)

Of course. The Israelis could act just like Hezbollah and shoot their rockets randomly throughout Lebanon, without any regard for where they might land.
Probably would have killed less civilians

PARIS, July 24 (Reuters) - Lebanon's president accused Israel on Monday of using phosphorous bombs in its 13-day offensive and urged the United Nations to demand an immediate ceasefire.

"According to the Geneva Convention, when they use phosphorous bombs.. , is that allowed against civilians and children?" President Emile Lahoud asked on France's RFI radio.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said arms used in Lebanon did not contravene international norms.

sources: Reuters.com / OcceanNEWS©2006

my2cents: Geneva?.. Geneva is nowhere to be seen.. is she?
she likes to hide.. and show up briefly.. whenever convinient..

Didn't surprise me when the Americans used it in Fallujah. Wouldn't surprise me if the Israeli's were using it.

If they are, it will come out and be confirmed soon enough. I'll still wait for more evidence thank you.

In the role that is sanctioned by the UN and Geneva Conventions. As a flare and as a smokescreen.

Are any destructive uses of it sanctioned by the UN?

Are any destructive uses of it sanctioned by the UN?
No, but in the case of the Israeli use, the intent is not to be destructive, but to serve for use in flares, or with smokescreens. That people are being injured by it is universally accidental.

Lemme see if I can sum this thread up.


Occeandrive: ISRAEL IS USING LEGITMATE TOOLS BUT I'LL IGNORE THAT AND CALL IT WAR CRIMES.

Deepkimchi: Bullshit.

NU: OMG WARCRIMES! EVIL JEWS! WE SHOULD OF LEFT HITLER ALONE!


Yeah I think that covers it. The UN has once again proven it's completely impotent, Israel has responded in a massively over-done manner but it's perfectly within their right as they've been shown once again that the rest of the world will not move to protect them.

No, but in the case of the Israeli use, the intent is not to be destructive, but to serve for use in flares, or with smokescreens. That people are being injured by it is universally accidental.

Who sets off flares and smoke screens in people's houses?!? :p

Who sets off flares and smoke screens in people's houses?!? :p
Besides me?

Typically a military that's planning on launching some sort of operation there, either a spec-ops insertion, or targeting for a nighttime bombing/artillery run.

No, but in the case of the Israeli use, the intent is not to be destructive, but to serve for use in flares, or with smokescreens. That people are being injured by it is universally accidental.

Well, you can use it "properly" in the middle of a populated area, with mostly civilians, and then call it an accident that people are being harmed by it.

Part of me wouldnt believe you.

Who sets off flares and smoke screens in people's houses?!? :p

Who wouldn't? Hell until Israel starts carpet bombing or nuking Lebanon I think the whole world ought be amazed by their restraint.

Lemme see if I can sum this thread up.

Occeandrive: ISRAEL IS USING LEGITMATE TOOLS BUT I'LL IGNORE THAT AND CALL IT WAR CRIMES.

Deepkimchi: Bullshit.

NU: OMG WARCRIMES! EVIL JEWS! WE SHOULD OF LEFT HITLER ALONE!

...

I'm letting you see. You can't.

You are the one eyed man in the land of the people waving pointy sticks.
Try again.

Who wouldn't? Hell until Israel starts carpet bombing or nuking Lebanon I think the whole world ought be amazed by their restraint.
Why? The Lebanese civilians don't deserve this.

Well, you can use it "properly" in the middle of a populated area, with mostly civilians, and then call it an accident that people are being harmed by it.

Part of me wouldnt believe you.
And you're getting into the conspiracy theory land. Why use limited amounts of White Phosphorous when other weapons systems would be far more effective and cheaper? I still don't see the rationality behind randomly shooting Willy Pete shells off into cities.

I still don't see the rationality behind randomly shooting Willy Pete shells off into cities.

To....kill...people?

And you're getting into the conspiracy theory land. Why use limited amounts of White Phosphorous when other weapons systems would be far more effective and cheaper? I still don't see the rationality behind randomly shooting Willy Pete shells off into cities.

I understand battlefields need to be illuminated, but when the battlefield is a city I dont think it should be used. If you are looking for certain people in the middle of a city who are hiding in apartments and shit, illuminating the city wouldnt be useful anyway.

Why? The Lebanese civilians don't deserve this.


Because Hezbollah has been permitted to operate with impunity for years. They're not being disarmed by Lebanon as they're supposed to by I believe UN resolution #1550. Lebanon is making no attempt to control their border with Israel and seems quite content to let Hezbollah control the entire area.

Because Hezbollah has been permitted to operate with impunity for years. They're not being disarmed by Lebanon as they're supposed to by I believe UN resolution #1550. Lebanon is making no attempt to control their border with Israel and seems quite content to let Hezbollah control the entire area.
So, your answer is to punish the civilians?

To....kill...people?

If they were trying to kill Civilians do you honestly think after two weeks the casualty count would only be 400? Hell I could off 400 with a tank in about an hour.

Because Hezbollah has been permitted to operate with impunity for years.

So has the Republican party.

If they were trying to kill Civilians do you honestly think after two weeks the casualty count would only be 400? Hell I could off 400 with a tank in about an hour.
Does that make you feel all masculine now? :rolleyes:

So, your answer is to punish the civilians?


I think you should go back and read what I posted. Apparently you didn't the first time.

Hell, I'll try that again, without being personal, and admitting to being off-topic
Or perhaps, on-too-many-topics. Here it is:

In the land of pointy sticks, the one-eyed man is King!

EDIT: I wouldn't be the least surprised to discover that someone said that before me. Claiming it without attribution is an honest mistake, I swear. Not like, "fucken yeah right" but as in "on my life and honour I truly believe I thought that up for myself." Being old sucks, and being alcoholic doesn't help one bit.

If they were trying to kill Civilians do you honestly think after two weeks the casualty count would only be 400? Hell I could off 400 with a tank in about an hour.

Considering like 2 out of 400 are Hezbollah...

Considering like 2 out of 400 are Hezbollah...

An intereting and completely unfounded assertion.

An intereting and completely unfounded assertion.

Youre right, noone knows how many Hezbollah are actually dead, which is an error in and of itself. You should know who you are killing before you kill them.

Best case scenario: 2/3 of the 400 are Hezbollah, considering 1/3 of the dead are children.

I think you completely misunderstand the nature of the conflict. As such you're not one to take seriously in your commentary on it.

I think you completely misunderstand the nature of the conflict. As such you're not one to take seriously in your commentary on it.
Nice counter argument:

"I don't want to listen to you. So there".
*turns back*

Youre right, noone knows how many Hezbollah are actually dead, which is an error in and of itself. You should know who you are killing before you kill them.

Best case scenario: 2/3 of the 400 are Hezbollah, considering 1/3 of the dead are children.

Who the "children" are depends on who is doing the counting.

Also, "counting" only counts those whose bodies are retrieved and brought to be counted.

All of those people blown up out on the road and dead in bunkers and rotting in a blown up apartment building have yet to turn in their attendance report.

Not to mention those who were turned into a left rear pants pocket by a direct hit.

Who the "children" are depends on who is doing the counting.

Well thats what David Horowitz told me.

EDIT: Nope, sorry, read my news wrong. He didnt say anything about the deaths. Ill try and find the source that says that.

Who the "children" are depends on who is doing the counting.

Also, "counting" only counts those whose bodies are retrieved and brought to be counted.

All of those people blown up out on the road and dead in bunkers and rotting in a blown up apartment building have yet to turn in their attendance report.

Not to mention those who were turned into a left rear pants pocket by a direct hit.

So you thin kthat more people are dead than we think and this is a good thing?

Or did I misunderstand something?

Who the "children" are depends on who is doing the counting.

Also, "counting" only counts those whose bodies are retrieved and brought to be counted.

All of those people blown up out on the road and dead in bunkers and rotting in a blown up apartment building have yet to turn in their attendance report.

Not to mention those who were turned into a left rear pants pocket by a direct hit.

Well according to Jan Egeland (who is Norwegian), UN emergency relief co-ordinator
Mr Egeland said that neither Hezbollah nor the Israelis seemed to care about civilian suffering, adding that nearly a third of the dead or wounded were children and the wounded could not be helped because roads and bridges had been cut by Israeli air strikes. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197186.stm

But of course, the UN has... *deep booming voice*..... an agenda. :eek:

Youre right, noone knows how many Hezbollah are actually dead, which is an error in and of itself. You should know who you are killing before you kill them.

That's crazy talk. Much easier to lob shells and say, "These are meant to kill terrorists." That way any civilian deaths are collateral damage. :D

Well according to Jan Egeland (who is Norwegian), UN emergency relief co-ordinator
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197186.stm

But of course, the UN has... *deep booming voice*..... an agenda. :eek:

And I'm sure that Jan has been to every place there's a dead body in Lebanon.... riiiiight....

And I'm sure that Jan has been to every place there's a dead body in Lebanon.... riiiiight....
At least he's been there DK, which is more than I can say for you... ;)

At least he's been there DK, which is more than I can say for you... ;)
I'm not saying how many, which is the difference.

Hey, I bet Jan just went to the local hospitals and asked.

Ever wonder why Hezbollah finances and has built most of the hospitals and clinics in Southern Lebanon?

I wonder if they have an agenda.

And I'm sure that Jan has been to every place there's a dead body in Lebanon.... riiiiight....

Yeah, but we're assuming he knows how to do his job.

I'm not saying how many, which is the difference.

Hey, I bet Jan just went to the local hospitals and asked.

Ever wonder why Hezbollah finances and has built most of the hospitals and clinics in Southern Lebanon?

I wonder if they have an agenda.

Yeah thats gonna need a source.

And as for agenda, maybe that agenda is to properly fund hospitals to house civilians after they have been bombed by Israel.

Yeah, but we're assuming he knows how to do his job.
Oooh. Like all the other UN inspectors/peacekeepers?

He's probably there to set up a prostitution ring, as seems common now in UN missions.

I'm not saying how many, which is the difference.

Hey, I bet Jan just went to the local hospitals and asked.

Ever wonder why Hezbollah finances and has built most of the hospitals and clinics in Southern Lebanon?

I wonder if they have an agenda.

Without proof, that's just speculation.

Oooh. Like all the other UN inspectors/peacekeepers?

He's probably there to set up a prostitution ring, as seems common now in UN missions.

And that's just completely ridiculous.

Without proof, that's just speculation.
It's not speculation that Hezbollah's influence in building the medical infrastructure (not to mention schools) in Southern Lebanon is quite real.

And, it's not speculation to know that Jan didn't see every casualty first hand. No one person could, in a week, go to every spot in the war zone and know for sure the cause of death or cause of wounding of every casualty found.

I'm not saying how many, which is the difference.

Hey, I bet Jan just went to the local hospitals and asked.

Ever wonder why Hezbollah finances and has built most of the hospitals and clinics in Southern Lebanon?

I wonder if they have an agenda.

Ever wonder why Hezb'allah built their own hosptials?

So they could be treated there instead of in public ones (where in emergencies such as this, they would be clogged. Wouldn't want your fighters getting seen to after some poor little 6 year old kid now would we)

Hez don't bring there wounded to public hospitals- they bring them to their own.

It's not speculation that Hezbollah's influence in building the medical infrastructure (not to mention schools) in Southern Lebanon is quite real.

And, it's not speculation to know that Jan didn't see every casualty first hand. No one person could, in a week, go to every spot in the war zone and know for sure the cause of death or cause of wounding of every casualty found.

Wait...

Okay, so they're building schools and hospitals.

This is bad, why again?

Wait...

Okay, so they're building schools and hospitals.

This is bad, why again?

So when casualties occur, they can be the spokesmen who say it's mountains of dead children.

Ever wonder why Hezb'allah built their own hosptials?

So they could be treated there instead of in public ones (where in emergencies such as this, they would be clogged. Wouldn't want your fighters getting seen to after some poor little 6 year old kid now would we)

Hez don't bring there wounded to public hospitals- they bring them to their own.

When the Israel Defence Forces withdrew in 2000, Hezbollah built a hospital next to an abandoned Israeli base in the border town of Bint Jbeil, in a strategic show of benevolence.

There was a critical need for medical services in the impoverished, warravaged region. Today, it is the only hospital in the area — a region that is now coming under intense Israeli fire.

By providing for the traditionally downtrodden Shiite Muslims of Lebanon, Hezbollah has sustained its support base.

"Is Hezbollah a terrorist organisation? God forgive the US, they will burn in hell for saying that. We're talking about a party of purity and truth that liberated our land," said Kamal Amin Srour, 78, a Shiite farmer I interviewed at the hospital last year.

Yeah...
http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/the-business-of-hezbollah/2006/07/17/1152988470771.html?page=3

Wait...

Okay, so they're building schools and hospitals.

This is bad, why again?

Because they're muslims and everything they do has layers of motives, most of them bad. They must be planning to use them for evil. :rolleyes:

Because they're muslims and everything they do has layers of motives, most of them bad. They must be planning to use them for evil. :rolleyes:

Considering that when a target is hit, their first and only statement is "it was a mosque" one needs to take what they say with a grain of salt. Especially when reporting casualties or battle damage.

Yeah...
http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/the-business-of-hezbollah/2006/07/17/1152988470771.html?page=3
Partially.

But it also makes military sense to have their own hosptials to heal their fighters- efficient.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/80A6775F-5AF3-425B-B86F-9497378249E5.htm


Mrouweh said that none of the casualties being treated in the hospital was a Hezbollah fighter.

"No one is in Hezbollah, I assure you," he said. "All of them are civilians. Hezbollah soldiers are not being sent to the hospital. We don't see them."

Partially.

But it also makes military sense to have their own hosptials to heal their fighters- efficient.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/80A6775F-5AF3-425B-B86F-9497378249E5.htm

One can also disbelieve the idea that no Hezbollah fighters have been killed or wounded. But I'm sure the UN guy will buy that line completely.

Partially.

But it also makes military sense to have their own hosptials to heal their fighters- efficient.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/80A6775F-5AF3-425B-B86F-9497378249E5.htm

Is there no possibility that maybe none of the people in that hospital are NOT fighters?

So when casualties occur, they can be the spokesmen who say it's mountains of dead children.

Okay...

Now let me examine that logic...

They're building hospitals so the Israelis will bomb them?

That's...

That is pretty much the equivilant of saying that the United States build the Twin Towers so they would be attacked.

One can also disbelieve the idea that no Hezbollah fighters have been killed or wounded. But I'm sure the UN guy will buy that line completely.
If you want.

But I don't hold the intelligence level of the Norwegians in that low regard myself.

If you read a little further, you'll see he is equally critical of Hezb'allah:

"But I also clearly see that Hezbollah is trying to blend into the civilian population in too many places and they bear also a heavy responsibility for this. They do not seem to care that they really inflict a lot of suffering on their own population," he added.


Of course, I'm sure that the Lebanese have time to cherry pick the hospitals he visits to ensure he only gets the civilians including kids.... in between doing their jobs with limited supplies, limited electricity and all the while dodging Israeli shells.

We might note that collateral damage, according to the Geneva Convention, in the case where civilians are co-located with military targets, is ALL the responsibility of the military who co-located with the civilians.

For all of you who want to follow the Geneva Convention to the letter, I suggest you protest Hezbollah's practice of completely intermingling all of their infrastructure and operations and forces with civilians.

That family was driving in a car!

Oh yeah, I bet they were surrounded by Hizbollah vehicles :rolleyes:

The Israelis gave fair warning of what areas they would hit. If people do not leave those areas they are to blame for what happens to them on a battlefield.

Is there no possibility that maybe none of the people in that hospital are NOT fighters?

Ok seriously, cut down on all the negatives. Scrambles me brain! :eek: :)

The Israelis gave fair warning of what areas they would hit. If people do not leave those areas they are to blame for what happens to them on a battlefield.

When Israel destroys all the ways out of that area, its kinda hard to leave.

Okay...

Now let me examine that logic...

They're building hospitals so the Israelis will bomb them?

That's...

That is pretty much the equivilant of saying that the United States build the Twin Towers so they would be attacked.

No, I'm saying that when reporters go to the hospital and ask "how many casualties?" the people running the hospital can say, "oh, 500 children, and no Hezbollah fighters".

When Israel destroys all the ways out of that area, its kinda hard to leave.

Thats a bunch of crap. People knew that the conflict was coming to their town for days. If you are trying to tell me that somehow Israel has blocked 360 degrees around every town..or even one town...you have not been watching the news.

No, I'm saying that when reporters go to the hospital and ask "how many casualties?" the people running the hospital can say, "oh, 500 children, and no Hezbollah fighters".

Even though they do it. Everything from the arab media, to the American media, to the Democratic party, to this thread has been serving as a propaganda arm of Hezbollah to bash Israel for the past time period. I am sick of it.

No, I'm saying that when reporters go to the hospital and ask "how many casualties?" the people running the hospital can say, "oh, 500 children, and no Hezbollah fighters".

Yeah.... thats what happens all right.

And your basing that on your experience in journalism in Beirut or your medical experience in Lebanon....oh wait. Thats right. Your aren't there!

Shocking I know, but I'll take first hand accounts of people who are there as opposed to people's opinions who are several thousand miles away. ;)

Yeah.... thats what happens all right.


I'm basing it on the zero reports of Hezbollah casualties from Hezbollah, and their insistence that the IDF has only hit mosques.

I'm basing it on the zero reports of Hezbollah casualties from Hezbollah, and their insistence that the IDF has only hit mosques.
And where have I linked to Hezb'allah statements?

Nowhere.
You think I believe a single word from them!? Pfft.

I have however linked to a Lebanese hospital director in Tyre and also a Norwegian relief co-ordinator in Beirut.

Thats a bunch of crap. People knew that the conflict was coming to their town for days. If you are trying to tell me that somehow Israel has blocked 360 degrees around every town..or even one town...you have not been watching the news.Ever ran off into a desert or other arid landscape with nothing but the shirt on your back and children tagging along? Would you want to leave your car behind? How do you cross a broken bridge?

Rockets and missiles raining on cities killing women and children doesnt deserve its own thread...phospherouse burns does.:rolleyes:


Hezbollah Invaded Israel from Lebenon , killed and kidnapped its soldiers and has fired over one thousand rockets and missiles into Israeli cities .

I guess thats not a pertanent piece of information to be used when placing the situation in the proper context .

When do we get a thread condeming Hezbollah ?

Or is that not trendy ? Too logical ? Conformist and proper ?

If you'll notice almost all of these Israel bash threads are made by ONE person.

OceanDrive

It's because as I said before.

What do you expect it's OceanDrive, Israel is the incarnation of Evil to him, they kick puppies, run stop signs, Jaywalk, drink the blood of the innocent, and summon unholy demons in their spare time, the US government meanwhile, summons the undead, eats children, and work on their super evil plots in their underground Volcano lair in a plan to enslave mankind. Basicly Oceandrive has no life so he spends his entire time Jew bashing.


According to Israel. Hezbollah believes differently. Unfortunately, there seems to be little diplomatic dialogue to settle the dispute by non-violent means. :p

Israel: Okay what are you terms?
Hezbollah: You and everyone of your people must die by tomorrow, you are to turn over your government to us and then kill yourself.
Israel: We'll get back to you on that.

And where have I linked to Hezb'allah statements?

Nowhere.
You think I believe a single word from them!? Pfft.

I have however linked to a Lebanese hospital director in Tyre and also a Norwegian relief co-ordinator in Beirut.

And the hospital director works for whom? And he is neutral, and has no sympathies either way?

And the Norwegian person has verified the accounts given to him, and has counted the bodies himself (or his personal staff has counted them, and performed autopsies to determine the cause of death)?

If you'll notice almost all of these Israel bash threads are made by ONE person.

OceanDrive

It's because as I said before.

Basicly Oceandrive has no life so he spends his entire time Jew bashing.




Israel: Okay what are you terms?
Hezbollah: You and everyone of your people must die by tomorrow, you are to turn over your government to us and then kill yourself.
Israel: We'll get back to you on that.

Well to be fair he more posts on things that make the right mad … which now not supporting Israel to the hilt does.

And the hospital director works for whom? And he is neutral, and has no sympathies either way?

And the Norwegian person has verified the accounts given to him, and has counted the bodies himself (or his personal staff has counted them, and performed autopsies to determine the cause of death)?
Lol so rather showing us any quotes to back up your claim you slam a hospital director and a relief coordinator.

Nice

If you'll notice almost all of these Israel bash threads are made by ONE person.

OceanDrive

It's because as I said before.

Basicly Oceandrive has no life so he spends his entire time Jew bashing.

He's been posting worse than that in the past. A lot of really virulent jew-hating speech that he posts and then in a few minutes, goes back and edits out, then claims he never posted it in the first place.

I had to use the QUOTE function really fast to catch him at it.

It's pretty clear that he's anti-Semitic (and I'm not trying to stifle debate - anyone can criticize Israel or its existence or its policies - but not after virulently spewing actual hate).