NationStates Jolt Archive

As I said earlier in this thread, I'm accurately portraying the public faces of the conservative christian movement--James Dobson, Rick Warren, D. James Kennedy, Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed, etc. Don't like it? Challenge their authority and leadership of conservative Christianity. Denounce them. Defy them. Challenge media outlets to allow other voices from the contemporary conservative christian movement. But like it or not, until that happens, you are represented by the likes of those people above, and it's your job to change the situation, not mine.
Pal, I think you're giving the 'faces' of the Conservative Christian movement a little too much credit for having a large following. Maybe you're giving conservative Christians a little too credit for being able to sort the wheat from the chaff. Anyhow, Ralph Reed was running for Lieutenant Governor of Georgia and couldn't even force a run-off against his primary opponent.

To make a point of all this, I'll say that there are divisions between politics, religion, and business that are not easily crossed. The folks that make news are as much about religion as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. They have found a way to turn a dollar and they are milking it for everything they can. Once in a while, one of them -- Ralph Reed in this case, goes just a little too far. These guys (left and right) may have some influence around the fringes, but not with the vast majority of the folks that they appear to represent.

It's not that I'm missing that, it's that I view the subject from outside Christianity.

From the point of view of a non-believer, the issue of faith IS the belief that "errors of judgement are of minor import, since your fate depends on your faith, and not on your judgement." In other words, it is only your faith which tells you that the quoted statement is true (or even relevant). Or, to put it yet another way, the original question was sort of about how you get within the context of the Christian religion in the first place.

And the answer, as far as I can tell, is "faith." To a person who has not assumed belief in Christianity, it doesn't matter if the Christian religion tells you one thing or another about the impact of your own judgment. The only reason such information would be important is if you have already adopted the belief that Christianity is right (for you, at least). You've already made your "leap of faith" at this point. That's the piece that was missing, I think.

Nawp. Your encounter with God ( if you ever have one ) will tell you all that you need to know. That encounter, by definition is subjective, and not objective. Yet that encounter provides the real proof for faith.

As it was once said: for those who believe, no further evidence is necessary.
For those who don't, no evidence will ever be enough.

I'm not being churlish about it, I am merely being factual.

One thing I don't wish to withhold is the... volume... of that encounter.
It's very low-keyedness is its most impressive attribute.

11 The LORD said, "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by."
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. 13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.
Then a voice said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"

1 Kings 19 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

Nawp. Your encounter with God ( if you ever have one ) will tell you all that you need to know. That encounter, by definition is subjective, and not objective. Yet that encounter provides the real proof for faith.
*snipped for length*

That's what I said. The reason a Christian does not pose the questions that Nazz was asking is because the answer is part-and-parcel with the leap of faith that they have already experienced. That (subjective) experience has occured BEFORE the point in time that Nazz is talking about.

That's what I said. The reason a Christian does not pose the questions that Nazz was asking is because the answer is part-and-parcel with the leap of faith that they have already experienced. That (subjective) experience has occured BEFORE the point in time that Nazz is talking about.

See? Nazz his question hasn't got all that much relevance.
( Which is why I was utterly unflustered nor upset about it. )

We KNOW.
The HOW of the KNOW may interest the outside, but not the inside.

Pal, I think you're giving the 'faces' of the Conservative Christian movement a little too much credit for having a large following. Maybe you're giving conservative Christians a little too credit for being able to sort the wheat from the chaff. Anyhow, Ralph Reed was running for Lieutenant Governor of Georgia and couldn't even force a run-off against his primary opponent.

To make a point of all this, I'll say that there are divisions between politics, religion, and business that are not easily crossed. The folks that make news are as much about religion as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. They have found a way to turn a dollar and they are milking it for everything they can. Once in a while, one of them -- Ralph Reed in this case, goes just a little too far. These guys (left and right) may have some influence around the fringes, but not with the vast majority of the folks that they appear to represent.Reed got his ass handed to him because he was outed as a hypocrite--it had nothing to do with the conservative christian population of Georgia not being able or willing to support one of their own. If he hadn't been caught with his hand in the Abramoff cookie jar and playing both sides of a gambling lobby game, he'd be the next Lt. Gov. of Georgia and you know it, and all on the strength of conservative christians.

I used to underestimate their power. I don't anymore.

See? Nazz his question hasn't got all that much relevance.
( Which is why I was utterly unflustered nor upset about it. )

We KNOW.
The HOW of the KNOW may interest the outside, but not the inside.
Are you admitting to a lack of intellectual curiosity on behalf of all Christians everywhere? I'm sure there are a number who would disagree with you.

Reed got his ass handed to him because he was outed as a hypocrite--it had nothing to do with the conservative christian population of Georgia not being able or willing to support one of their own. If he hadn't been caught with his hand in the Abramoff cookie jar and playing both sides of a gambling lobby game, he'd be the next Lt. Gov. of Georgia and you know it, and all on the strength of conservative christians.

I used to underestimate their power. I don't anymore.
We're not flush with honest pols up here. Cagle was just as bad. The word Abramoff barely darkened the primary campaign. Like I said, these guys have as much devotion to religion as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.