NationStates Jolt Archive

As part of the arms package ok'd by congress Israel is expecting a large ( 100 ) order of sattelite and laser guided Bunker busting munitions to use along with the f 15 's they own already .
for those not familiar with Bunker Busters ..we are talking about munitions that will penetrate deep below ground and pass through reinforced concrete before exploding ..if you are 150 feet below ground in a reinforced concrete bunker when its targeted..it becomes your tomb .
As part of the Israeli recon by force they have been doing in southern lebenon the discovery of such bunkers seems to come as a suprise to the Israelis ..also thre discovery of rockets and other munitions stored in Mosques by Hezbollah..a tactic used to protect Hezbollahs arsenal .

I think the delivery of these munitions at this time will pretty much spell doom for hezbollah..provided the targeting information is correct and Israel doesnt just blow up some guys bathroom . The problems it will create for the US in the Arab world is another story..Hezbollah so far is almost seen as holding its own, but by the US providing a decisive method and weapons to Israel ..this will no longer be so . Much like in the 1973 war the US will have blantanly shown its support for one side .

But what is the US to do ? Is it possible to support hezbollah ? Can the US convince the UN to force Hezbollah to stop firing rockets into Israel and disarm ? WHO can force hezbollah to stop firing at Israel and disarm ?

Arab governments will understand ..BUT the people who make up the Arab street will see the US as tipping the scales again in Israels favor.

I personaly cant see how to tell Israel to back off ..not while hundreds of missiles and rockets are landing in their country ..so what IS the solution ?

Before these weapons are used and hundreds of hezbollah are buried forever and before a large scale ground attack take place , what can be done ?

Does anyone have a plan ..or is it just going to be the usual ranting and raving ? This little war is going to have long lasting consequences for all those involved.

*Sigh*
This won't help things. The Israelis seem to be missing the enemy just fine by themselves, and this will portray the US as complete hypocrites to the Lebanese and the arab world.

On a related note, I think this little cartoon is worth a look:
http://www.markfiore.com/animation/swear01.html

Actually it will just reinforce the opinions they already hold . But the alternative is to do what ? Not help an allied country ?

I would love to see a plan to end this shit that would work . Aside from kill all the hezbollah and then leave. Iran can always get more Hezbollah to send over to replace the ones you kill .

I would love to see a plan to end this shit that would work . Aside from kill all the hezbollah and then leave. Iran can always get more Hezbollah to send over to replace the ones you kill .

The problem is that you can't end it. No matter who you are fighting to get rid of, someone will always remain to resurrect and follow their ideals.

Actually it will just reinforce the opinions they already hold . But the alternative is to do what ? Not help an allied country ?

I would love to see a plan to end this shit that would work.for decades we have been sending billions in Weapons and cash to the middle east..
and that has clearly NOT worked.

its time to stop trying for War.. and to try for peace. No more US taxpayers money to the Middle east unless they make peace first. They have to find a way to peace.. or else not a US cent more.

for decades we have been sending billions in Weapons and cash to the middle east.. and that has clearly NOT worked.

It's a bit hypocritical isn't it? Sending them weapons and complaining when they're used

..so what IS the solution ?

If the political analysis is correct, arrange 'accidents' for the various generals in the IDF, get more viable ones in place, get Lebanon and Israel to sit down at a table somewhere, hammer our some kind of peace deal between the two with some kind of incentive package thrown in to root out Hezbollah and render it ineffective as a fighting force in ways similar to the dealings with the IRA.

The key is getting Israel and Lebanon to cooperate without the use of bombs and artillery. Removing the hawks is the first step.

Actually it will just reinforce the opinions they already hold . But the alternative is to do what ? Not help an allied country ?

I would love to see a plan to end this shit that would work . Aside from kill all the hezbollah and then leave. Iran can always get more Hezbollah to send over to replace the ones you kill .Well, I have no doubts that it is profitable for the US to sell weapons to Israel, which might be one of the reasons why the US government isn't interested in an immediate cease fire. ;)

Gravlen had it, there.

1) Good. We have to support our allies.

2) Peretz is opened to a strong intl force, preferably NATO, on the border.

for decades we have been sending billions in Weapons and cash to the middle east..
and that has clearly NOT worked.

its time to stop trying for War.. and to try for peace. No more US taxpayers money to the Middle east unless they make peace first. They have to find a way to peace.. or else not a US cent more.

Wonderful idea. And completely naive.

Wonderful idea. And completely naive.

Well OD isn't known for brains.

Well OD isn't known for brains.
Well, that's insightful...:rolleyes:

For shame, Corny (especially as you're not unknown for same).

Well, I have no doubts that it is profitable for the US to sell weapons to Israel, which might be one of the reasons why the US government isn't interested in an immediate cease fire. ;)
Except that the US gives Israel the money to buy weapons from the US. It's sort of an indirect subsidy of US arms manufacturers. The defense industry then uses its profits to fund the campaigns of their favorite senators and congressmen. Follow the money, round and round it goes... :rolleyes:

What y'all are missing is that the military aid the US gives to Israel was part of the Camp David accords, which ended hostilities between Israel and Egypt -- not to mention the fact that Egypt gets nearly the same amount of military aid under that agreement.

What y'all are missing is that the military aid the US gives to Israel was part of the Camp David accords.are you suggesting that US taxpayers were not giving millions in weapons and Cash to Israel BEFORE Camp-David ???

Except that the US gives Israel the money to buy weapons from the US. It's sort of an indirect subsidy of US arms manufacturers. The defense industry then uses its profits to fund the campaigns of their favorite senators and congressmen. Follow the money, round and round it goes... :rolleyes:Well, make sure they spend the money on US products and not such commie things such as welfare :p

are you suggesting that US taxpayers were not giving millions in weapons and Cash to Israel BEFORE Camp-David ???

That was nearly 30 years ago. Get over it (especially since it was probably before you were even born).

That was ...dodgeball
.

dodgeball
.

Yeah, and you got plunked in the head. Get off the court, kid.

Yeah, and you got plunked in the head. Get off the court, kid.

*claps*

Don't worry. This isn't his day for he was destroyed in another thread.

Yeah, and you got plunked in the head. Get off the court, kid.In a Forum.. I do not play Dodgeball.

whoever plays dodgeball in a Forum (dodging a direct question).. is a loser.

;)

In a Forum.. I do not play Dodgeball.

whoever plays dodgeball in a Forum (dodging a direct question).. is a loser.

;)

Looks like you lost another thread.

Don't worry. This isn't his day for he was destroyed in another thread.Corneliu is talking about this Thread
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11420164&postcount=58

he is still Daydreaming. :D

Looks like you lost another thread.I am not the Lamer dodging a direct question.

Corneliu is talking about this Thread
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11420164&postcount=58

he is still Daydreaming. :D

See what I mean about not acknowledging a defeat when it is a clear defeat?

On a related note, I think this little cartoon is worth a look:
http://www.markfiore.com/animation/swear01.html
Utter bullshit.

I am not the Lamer dodging a direct question.

I'm not the "lamer" (you damn kids and your silly language) losing debates right and left.

Utter bullshit.Well, not completely. He is adapting some real quotes...

If the political analysis is correct, arrange 'accidents' for the various generals in the IDF, get more viable ones in place, get Lebanon and Israel to sit down at a table somewhere, hammer our some kind of peace deal between the two with some kind of incentive package thrown in to root out Hezbollah and render it ineffective as a fighting force in ways similar to the dealings with the IRA.

The key is getting Israel and Lebanon to cooperate without the use of bombs and artillery. Removing the hawks is the first step.
So let me see if I've got this right ... we kill the military command of an ally so that Israel can no longer defend itself effectively, then pay Hezbollah to stop fighting? Is that about right?

What about all the people on both sides who have hated each other since time immemorial?

Well, I have no doubts that it is profitable for the US to sell weapons to Israel, which might be one of the reasons why the US government isn't interested in an immediate cease fire. ;)
Your misinformation and cynicism are duly noted. :rolleyes:

Except that the US gives Israel the money to buy weapons from the US. It's sort of an indirect subsidy of US arms manufacturers. The defense industry then uses its profits to fund the campaigns of their favorite senators and congressmen. Follow the money, round and round it goes... :rolleyes:
And this is different from the way most governments operate how??

And this is different from the way most governments operate how??
But... but... I thought you guys wanted to be better than other people... :eek:

It's a shame that "everybody else does it" so easily justifies an easy avenue to corruption.

Your misinformation and cynicism are duly noted. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
I'm merely voicing the fact that I wouldn't be surprised if that's why Condi allegedly isn't going to be doing anything until next weekend. It doesn't mean that's the main reason why, but that I don't rule out that selling weapons to Israel hasn't been in the back of people's minds...

:rolleyes:
I'm merely voicing the fact that I wouldn't be surprised if that's why Condi allegedly isn't going to be doing anything until next weekend. It doesn't mean that's the main reason why, but that I don't rule out that selling weapons to Israel hasn't been in the back of people's minds...

No offense, mein freund, but you fail to realise how long it takes to formalise those contracts. There's no way this sale wasn't in the works well before this shit blew up.

But... but... I thought you guys wanted to be better than other people... :eek:

It's a shame that "everybody else does it" so easily justifies an easy avenue to corruption.
I'm not trying to "justify" it, just noting that it has, does, and will exist.

No offense, mein freund, but you fail to realise how long it takes to formalise those contracts. There's no way this sale wasn't in the works well before this shit blew up.;)

Hopefully Israel will use them to wipe out Hamas and Hezbollah. Of course, if they need more, we can send them for a decent price, as it is a bulk buy.

;)

Wink all you like. I still wanna steal your e-woman. :p

Wink all you like. I still wanna steal your e-woman. :pHehe. I knew it was jealousy that motivated that devious attempt at my forum credibility! I am truly vexed at your dastardliness! :D

Except that the US gives Israel the money to buy weapons from the US. It's sort of an indirect subsidy of US arms manufacturers. The defense industry then uses its profits to fund the campaigns of their favorite senators and congressmen. Follow the money, round and round it goes... :rolleyes:

A dollar, bullet, and M16 sent to Israel is one that will be used to defend itself and kill islamic fascists that WOULD be out to get the US if Israel didn't exist.

And israel gets GOOD use out of those weapons-they are still using WW2 M1 carbines and Vietnam era M16A1 rifles decades after we upgraded.

Wink all you like. I still wanna steal your e-woman. :p


:eek:

Online affair? How dastardly!

Well, I have no doubts that it is profitable for the US to sell weapons to Israel, which might be one of the reasons why the US government isn't interested in an immediate cease fire. ;)


Try " give " Israel weapons...how can you send billions in aid and get paid for weapons ?

Not a valid point at all . What economy or " weallth" does a tiny country with no oil or diamonds or minerals etc. Have ?

But... but... I thought you guys wanted to be better than other people... :eek:

That is your biased opinion. :rolleyes:

Hehe. I knew it was jealousy that motivated that devious attempt at my forum credibility! I am truly vexed at your dastardliness! :D

Of course it was jealousy. She's an incredibly attractive and intelligent woman. And you shouldn't be vexed at all. I think I've posted enough here for everyone to know how dastardly I can be. :p

But I also made a valid point. ;)

Not a valid point at all . What economy or " weallth" does a tiny country with no oil or diamonds or minerals etc. Have ?

I don't know. Why don't you ask Japan?

I don't know. Why don't you ask Japan?

Incredible Auto and electronics industry.

Utter bullshit.

Is this the Cursing cartoon ? I thought it a bit of a hoot meself Eut ...I hope I dont get grumpy like you when I get to be 90:D

No offense, mein freund, but you fail to realise how long it takes to formalise those contracts. There's no way this sale wasn't in the works well before this shit blew up.

In fact when the sale was announced several weeks ago, people thought they might be going to use the weapons on Iran's nuclear facilities.

Of course it was jealousy. She's an incredibly attractive and intelligent woman. And you shouldn't be vexed at all. I think I've posted enough here for everyone to know how dastardly I can be. :p

But I also made a valid point. ;)Yeah, I know. I wanted to to post something about how it's more likely that there'll be a new deal if Israel has to use up the bombs, hence the hesitation, but that look like I couldn't concede a point and refuse to give in like some other people on this forums. ;)

In fact when the sale was announced several weeks ago, people thought they might be going to use the weapons on Iran's nuclear facilities.They did speed it up though... It wasn't scheduled for now.

That is your biased opinion. :rolleyes:
Ah, so you don't want to be better than other people. Why then should your country be permitted to self-style itself the "policeman of the world" if you're no better or worse than other people?

Hmmmm?

Nobody loves a cop. Particularly not a corrupt one.

Ah, so you don't want to be better than other people. Why then should your country be permitted to self-style itself the "policeman of the world" if you're no better or worse than other people?

Hmmmm?

Nobody loves a cop. Particularly not a corrupt one.

In no way can you say that we are the World's police. Especially right now. Had there been no 9/11, we'd all still be sitting back eatin big macs, drinking lattes, and enjoying peace. Of course, AQ changed that.

We don't want to go to turd world crap holes to hunt filthy vile wicked animals who want to murder all Americans and end our country, but we will if we have to. We didn't start this either....they did.

Good now Hezbollah should be eliminated.

So let me see if I've got this right ... we kill the military command of an ally so that Israel can no longer defend itself effectively, then pay Hezbollah to stop fighting? Is that about right?

Finish reading what I posted before you post Eut. Makes you look less of a raving froth at mouth neo-con. I did specify that replacements would be installed. Those who are more flexible in their thinking. You were a soldier Eut. If you're a hard head and don't learn from experience as a grunt, you go home in a body bag. If you're an ass as a general, hundreds, if not more grunts go home in body bags.

As to the current analysis well, the current postulation is that Olmert, the current PM of Israel, got into office on the promise of peace, etc, etc, NOT blood drinking and generally flying missiles left, right and center. It's a relatively weak platform. When Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers, the higher ups in the IDF forced the issue, pressuring Olmert to go to war in order to not appear weak to his people. As with any generalissmo who infects military thinking, the best way to deal with it was, with lots of explosives as opposed to actual counter-insurgency ops.

Which is why I argued for arranging some accidents to befall them and more malleable elements to take their place. Furthermore, Lebanon's goverment does not want war. Hezbollah is powerful enough that it can do what it wants with little fear of repurcussion from the government. Although Lebanon's govermnent most likely knows about Hezbollah ops, it lacks the power to stop them.

At the same time, Israel has the power, but utilizes none of the finesse or skill to actually stop it, choosing the US approach of bombing anything and everything. A failed strategy when dealing with guerillas. Again, more reasons to remove the generals of the IDF to replace them with more flexible ones.

The key, as I have said, is to bring both Lebanon and Israel to the table. If the two can cooperate, Hezbollah can be made to see that a position of military antagonism is untenable if they wish to enjoy popular support.

And for that to happen, Israel has to actually talk with something more than demands and missiles.

Now if you've reached this far Eut, congrats, you've had the patience to read through it all. If you haven't, you suck as a debater.


What about all the people on both sides who have hated each other since time immemorial?

What part of 'accidents' didn't you understand?

You duped me dude.

FYI, the GBU-28's WON'T blow up someone's bathroom.


They'll pass right through it and blow up the bunker underneath it, and then the bathroom will collapse, but it won't get blown up.

In no way can you say that we are the World's police. Especially right now. Had there been no 9/11, we'd all still be sitting back eatin big macs, drinking lattes, and enjoying peace. Of course, AQ changed that.


Bollocks. Before 9/11, there was the the Shah of Iran, the Iran/Contra scandal, the Bay of Pigs, Saddam Hussein and dozens of other cases of US interventionism. And for what? World Policing? Bullshit. World domination attempts is more like it.

You typify the arrogant American. One finger up the nose, the other on the remote. Drinking from a big can of ignorance.

Finish reading what I posted before you post Eut. Makes you look less of a raving froth at mouth neo-con. I did specify that replacements would be installed. Those who are more flexible in their thinking. You were a soldier Eut. If you're a hard head and don't learn from experience as a grunt, you go home in a body bag. If you're an ass as a general, hundreds, if not more grunts go home in body bags.

As to the current analysis well, the current postulation is that Olmert, the current PM of Israel, got into office on the promise of peace, etc, etc, NOT blood drinking and generally flying missiles left, right and center. It's a relatively weak platform. When Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers, the higher ups in the IDF forced the issue, pressuring Olmert to go to war in order to not appear weak to his people. As with any generalissmo who infects military thinking, the best way to deal with it was, with lots of explosives as opposed to actual counter-insurgency ops.

Which is why I argued for arranging some accidents to befall them and more malleable elements to take their place. Furthermore, Lebanon's goverment does not want war. Hezbollah is powerful enough that it can do what it wants with little fear of repurcussion from the government. Although Lebanon's govermnent most likely knows about Hezbollah ops, it lacks the power to stop them.

At the same time, Israel has the power, but utilizes none of the finesse or skill to actually stop it, choosing the US approach of bombing anything and everything. A failed strategy when dealing with guerillas. Again, more reasons to remove the generals of the IDF to replace them with more flexible ones.

The key, as I have said, is to bring both Lebanon and Israel to the table. If the two can cooperate, Hezbollah can be made to see that a position of military antagonism is untenable if they wish to enjoy popular support.

And for that to happen, Israel has to actually talk with something more than demands and missiles.

Now if you've reached this far Eut, congrats, you've had the patience to read through it all. If you haven't, you suck as a debater.



What part of 'accidents' didn't you understand?


What makes you think that this was not a long standing Israeli policy that was implemented 6 years ago when they agreed to move out and the UN promised them hezbollah would be disarmed ?

Especially when they have sat back and watched while Hezbollah NOT only did not disarm but aquired more and better equipment , you are delusional to think the people in charge in Israel have not percieved the threat , especially since they have been bombing sheeba farms for years.


Also I like the way you advocate assinating generals ..in a Democratic society..then try to dance around it , If those in charge of the civilian government do not like a general or think they are out of line they simply retire them . If you think otherwise you know NOTHING what so ever about Israeli society .

You obviously just woke up the day the war started and came to a conclusion without taking any of the last SIX years of history at the " blue line " into account ..your thinking on the subject has major flaws based on assumptions and fabrications along with strange flights of imagination .

In no way can you say that we are the World's police. Especially right now. Had there been no 9/11, we'd all still be sitting back eatin big macs, drinking lattes, and enjoying peace. Of course, AQ changed that.

We don't want to go to turd world crap holes to hunt filthy vile wicked animals who want to murder all Americans and end our country, but we will if we have to. We didn't start this either....they did.

:D You really don't know your own history, do you?

:D You really don't know your own history, do you?

Actually, the US has been rather reticent in some cases about being the world police. There was political opposition to becoming involved in both WW I and WW II.

It was easier to meddle in places where United Fruit Company was doing business.

And the Cold War brought a new kind of meddling, but not usually invasion and war. Vietnam seems to have been meddling gone wrong.

I would say that since the US is footing the bill for the armed forces that enable it to project force, that the US should be the sole country to say what and how it will be done.

As soon as the rest of the world finances the US defense budget, you can make it do your bidding in the fashion that you desire.

Until then, I suggest that everyone outside of the US stop complaining about how the US isn't doing things the way they want it to.

Would it be too much to ask that Israel kills more terrorists with these bombs than non-terrorists?

I suspect so. :p

Actually, the US has been rather reticent in some cases about being the world police. There was political opposition to becoming involved in both WW I and WW II.

It was easier to meddle in places where United Fruit Company was doing business.

And the Cold War brought a new kind of meddling, but not usually invasion and war. Vietnam seems to have been meddling gone wrong.

I would say that since the US is footing the bill for the armed forces that enable it to project force, that the US should be the sole country to say what and how it will be done.

As soon as the rest of the world finances the US defense budget, you can make it do your bidding in the fashion that you desire.

Until then, I suggest that everyone outside of the US stop complaining about how the US isn't doing things the way they want it to.

I was referring to his statement that the USA wouldn't be dicking around in the Middle East if it wasn't for the 9/11 attacks.
It is a known fact that they intended to invade both Afghanistan and Iraq before the attack took place.

As for your post:
I can't object to warmongering unless I'm paying for it? :rolleyes:

I was referring to his statement that the USA wouldn't be dicking around in the Middle East if it wasn't for the 9/11 attacks.
It is a known fact that they intended to invade both Afghanistan and Iraq before the attack took place.

As for your post:
I can't object to warmongering unless I'm paying for it? :rolleyes:



Explain how you think it was a " known fact " by whom ? How did you invent this ?

Deployment schedules and budget request and all other indications of a major draw down and redeployment of forces , before 9/11... all say thats a big steaming pile of smelly fly ridden bullshit .

I was referring to his statement that the USA wouldn't be dicking around in the Middle East if it wasn't for the 9/11 attacks.
It is a known fact that they intended to invade both Afghanistan and Iraq before the attack took place.

As for your post:
I can't object to warmongering unless I'm paying for it? :rolleyes:

Nope. What are you going to stop it with, bad language?

Also, I find your assertion about intending to attack Afghanistan and Iraq pretty silly - we were attacking both of them with missiles during the Clinton Adminstration.

Also, I find your assertion about intending to attack Afghanistan and Iraq pretty silly - we were attacking both of them with missiles during the Clinton Adminstration.

100% accurate.

back in the real world, does the fact isreal is trying to procure these missiles now not prove that they didnt know hezbollah had bunkers, which in turns points out that 2 weeks in they are still capable of hitting isreal with missiles and this logically proves that the isrealis havent thought this through and are stumbling along?

seriously, dropping leaflets telling civilians to evacuate then blowing the cars they escape in as well as the roads and bridges.

the IDF aint what they used to be.

seriously, dropping leaflets telling civilians to evacuate then blowing the cars they escape in as well as the roads and bridges.

the IDF aint what they used to be.

Something tells me that you might see it differently if you were a Hezbollah fighter on the ground.

Yes, you drop leaflets, because if you don't, the "international community" has a case of the ass.

Which they have in any case, so I wonder why people follow any international "law" at all - they're just going to accuse you of everything anyway.

So far, no sign of anyone saying that Hez is violating international law by kidnapping soldiers for ransom (which is against the Geneva Conventions, but Hez isn't a signatory, so no one cares).

Nope. What are you going to stop it with, bad language?

Also, I find your assertion about intending to attack Afghanistan and Iraq pretty silly - we were attacking both of them with missiles during the Clinton Adminstration.
Attacking Afghanistan with missiles during the Clinton Adminstration? When, where and why? I can't remember this being done.

Attacking Afghanistan with missiles during the Clinton Adminstration? When, where and why? I can't remember this being done.
Bin Laden I believe- attacking in Afghanistan as opposed to attacking Afghanistan.

Attacking Afghanistan with missiles during the Clinton Adminstration? When, where and why? I can't remember this being done.
I guess you forgot when Clinton missed Bin Laden by an hour at a training camp in Afghanistan?

Well, I have no doubts that it is profitable for the US to sell weapons to Israel, which might be one of the reasons why the US government isn't interested in an immediate cease fire. ;)
Shit, I wish we were making a profit off of this. What weapons we dont give to Israel for free, they buy with our own money!
Shit, if we weren't paying for this war, I wouldn't mind it so much.

Something tells me that you might see it differently if you were a Hezbollah fighter on the ground.

Yes, you drop leaflets, because if you don't, the "international community" has a case of the ass.

Which they have in any case, so I wonder why people follow any international "law" at all - they're just going to accuse you of everything anyway.

So far, no sign of anyone saying that Hez is violating international law by kidnapping soldiers for ransom (which is against the Geneva Conventions, but Hez isn't a signatory, so no one cares).

if i were a hezbollah fighter on the ground i would be launching another rocket and laughing my bollocks off about how those krazy isralites walked straight into our trap.

Attacking Afghanistan with missiles during the Clinton Adminstration? When, where and why? I can't remember this being done.
Yes, no one can remember how Clinton attacked seven different countries during his Administration with no provocation.

I guess you forgot when Clinton missed Bin Laden by an hour at a training camp in Afghanistan?
Yes, I have forgotten about that. When was it again?
Yes, no one can remember how Clinton attacked seven different countries during his Administration with no provocation.
No, I just couldn't remember the Afghanistan-incident.

Bin Laden I believe- attacking in Afghanistan as opposed to attacking Afghanistan.
Well there's a difference there, isn't it. Small but significant ;)

Well there's a difference there, isn't it. Small but significant ;)


He attacked a bunch of targets in Afghanistan..and actually took out an asprin factory .

What makes you think that this was not a long standing Israeli policy that was implemented 6 years ago when they agreed to move out and the UN promised them hezbollah would be disarmed ?

Was Hezbollah given an alternative to fighting that didn't involve 'disappearing'? Did they have anything to make it worth taking up more peaceful causes?

I suggest you take a good hard look at how the British dealth with the IRA. Or how the Thai's solved their problems with communists. They fought for a while certainly, but in the end, it wasn't guns, bombs, missiles and other assorted weapons that made them stop.

It was an alternative that they could all live with.


Especially when they have sat back and watched while Hezbollah NOT only did not disarm but aquired more and better equipment , you are delusional to think the people in charge in Israel have not percieved the threat , especially since they have been bombing sheeba farms for years.

First, you have to explain what a sheeba farm is.


Also I like the way you advocate assinating generals ..in a Democratic society..then try to dance around it ,

I see no problems with using the same policy and tactics that was used to install dictators and psychopaths in positions of power to remove warmongers.

If you don't like it, you shouldn't have done it in the first place. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle.

Besides, you asked for a solution. If you do not like it, argue on the merits of the statement, whether it is workable or not and not because it goes against your bias.

And your bias is considerably open on this board.


If those in charge of the civilian government do not like a general or think they are out of line they simply retire them . If you think otherwise you know NOTHING what so ever about Israeli society .

I know that Israeli military didn't do squat against those convicted of unlawful killings even in the eyes of their own people. I also have footage of Israeli children inscribing names and other assorted words on IDF shells to the approval of the onlookers.

To put it simply, much of Israel approves of escalating the conflict.

And before you even try to bring up the "but they do it too" argument, I remind you that to use that argument is to use ALL other arguments of the same vein against Israel lest one wishes to look like a hypocrite.


You obviously just woke up the day the war started and came to a conclusion without taking any of the last SIX years of history at the " blue line " into account ..your thinking on the subject has major flaws based on assumptions and fabrications along with strange flights of imagination .

Now if you had raised some points, there might have been some basis to your assertions. As it stands, they are hardly more than the ravings of a person who comes across opinions and statements he does not liked, but can't be arsed to argue properly.

How amusing.

Explain how you think it was a " known fact " by whom ? How did you invent this ?

Deployment schedules and budget request and all other indications of a major draw down and redeployment of forces , before 9/11... all say thats a big steaming pile of smelly fly ridden bullshit .

It's not my fault you don't keep up with news. Iraq was very obvious, wasn't it? As for the invasion in Afghanistan, Pakistani ministers told the press a couple of years ago that they had been asked to allow American soldiers passage to invade Afghanistan before 9/11. It was on the news quite a bit, so you can google for it for yourself as I am not responsible for your ignorance.

You're gonna have a field day with this...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7BE824EC-6574-457D-A77D-2DD1B2EDFCCA.htm
A US-based human rights group has accused Israel of using artillery-fired cluster grenades against a Lebanese village last week during its assault against Hezbollah.

You're gonna have a field day with this...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7BE824EC-6574-457D-A77D-2DD1B2EDFCCA.htm

Do they have evidence?

LOL! You are quality, DM!
In no way can you say that we are the World's police. Especially right now. Had there been no 9/11, we'd all still be sitting back eatin big macs, drinking lattes, and enjoying peace. Of course, AQ changed that.
Of course. Of course, DM. Nasty terrorists are after our Big Macs. But I thought you guys drank Coke? What are ya, some pantywaist frenchie-lover?

We don't want to go to turd world crap holes to hunt filthy vile wicked animals who want to murder all Americans and end our country, but we will if we have to. We didn't start this either....they did.
And that was Their Mistake. Never give the US an excuse to "do what a man gotta do." Anything could happen.
EDIT: still trying to catch up. But I couldn't let that pass. DM should go on the stage!

You're gonna have a field day with this...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7BE824EC-6574-457D-A77D-2DD1B2EDFCCA.htm

ADAM is the name of the cluster grenade that is fired from artillery.

Notably, it doesn't go off on landing. Each grenade deploys a set of thin monofilament lines that if disturbed, cause it to pop up into the air at waist height and detonate.

ADAM = Area Denial Artillery Munition.

It is VERY visible on the ground. The idea is to make it impossible for people to move through the area without being castrated.

After 48 hours, they self-destruct at ground level.

If you fire it at a village where the Hez happen to be hiding, the civilians are safe as long as they stay indoors.

Go outside, and you get your nuts blown off.

Of course, according to the Geneva Conventions, collateral damage in this instance is the fault of Hezbollah, who are committing a war crime every time one of their fighters are within a few hundred yards of a civilian.

...
As with any generalissmo who infects military thinking, the best way to deal with it was, with lots of explosives as opposed to actual counter-insurgency ops.

Which is why I argued for arranging some accidents to befall them and more malleable elements to take their place.
...

The core of your position I believe. And it's good, but the reason it's rarely done is "the divine right of Kings," no leader will do that, because it puts them at personal risk. Attacking the top echelons of another's military would get you the same back. It would work fine, but the givers of orders have a certain ... cowardice? ... about doing that.

...

Also I like the way you advocate assinating generals ..in a Democratic society..then try to dance around it , If those in charge of the civilian government do not like a general or think they are out of line they simply retire them . ...


Long rave, defending Divine Right of Kings, only for you it's the Divine Right and Infallibility of Democracy. I appoint you Ehud Elmert. Start sacking generals because you don't "like" them. Good luck.

Would it be too much to ask that Israel kills more terrorists with these bombs than non-terrorists?
I suspect so. :p

Dude! That wasn't very funny.<snip>
Yes, you drop leaflets, because if you don't, the "international community" has a case of the ass.

Which they have in any case, so I wonder why people follow any international "law" at all - they're just going to accuse you of everything anyway.

So far, no sign of anyone saying that Hez is violating international law by kidnapping soldiers for ransom (which is against the Geneva Conventions, but Hez isn't a signatory, so no one cares).

Dropping leaflets made the news world 'round. It certainly helped the perception of this war, in Israel's favour.
No, it didn't make it all allright. But that doesn't make it a stupid thing to do, simply a nice idea tacked onto a war plan. I approve of it.

Geneva Convention applies to declared wars. If you want to invoke that, you're talking an exchange of prisoners. Obviously, Hezbollah could have killed the soldiers instead of kidnapping/taking them prisoner.
I guess you forgot when Clinton missed Bin Laden by an hour at a training camp in Afghanistan?
Great point. I see why you are feared / respected in debate. Decapitation looks like a good bet in this case.Yes, no one can remember how Clinton attacked seven different countries during his Administration with no provocation.
See above....

I suggest you take a good hard look at how the British dealth with the IRA. Or how the Thai's solved their problems with communists. They fought for a while certainly, but in the end, it wasn't guns, bombs, missiles and other assorted weapons that made them stop.

It was an alternative that they could all live with.
...
Oh yeah! Don't know why I bother, really. Me n DM should just put on some classics and dance. The debate will take some time digesting that blast.ADAM is the name of the cluster grenade that is fired from artillery.

Notably, it doesn't go off on landing. Each grenade deploys a set of thin monofilament lines that if disturbed, cause it to pop up into the air at waist height and detonate.

ADAM = Area Denial Artillery Munition.

It is VERY visible on the ground. The idea is to make it impossible for people to move through the area without being castrated.

Yep, you're having a field day with that.

I've caught up! Great debate here.

Was Hezbollah given an alternative to fighting that didn't involve 'disappearing'? Did they have anything to make it worth taking up more peaceful causes?

Its alternative was negotiating through peacefull means and joining the democracy in Lebenon . It chose instead to negotiate by kidnapping and raining rockets on civilians and to try to destroy democracy in Lebenon..hezbollah as part of the government was not given a mandate by the Lebanese people to declare war on Israel..Good choices they made and wonderfull partners in your government .

I suggest you take a good hard look at how the British dealth with the IRA. Or how the Thai's solved their problems with communists. They fought for a while certainly, but in the end, it wasn't guns, bombs, missiles and other assorted weapons that made them stop.

You need two partners to negotiate ..and one of them MUST at least recognize the others right to exist ..wake me up when that happens .

It was an alternative that they could all live with.

Wake me up when the Hezbollah decide they can allow Jews to live ..anywhere on the planet...or have they not made plain that the goal of their organization is THE DESTRUCTION of ISRAEL . Not much room to negotiate do you think ?



First, you have to explain what a sheeba farm is.'

Shebaa Farms is a disputed agricultural area consisting of a dozen or so abandoned farms located southwest of Shebaa, a Lebanese village on the northwestern slopes of Mount Hermon, at the junction of Syria, Lebanon and Israel. The area is about 14 kilometres (8.7 mi) in length and averages 2.5 kilometres (1.6 mi) in width, at altitudes of 150 to 1,880 meters (490–6,170 ft). This fertile and well-watered farm land produced barley, fruits and vegetables. There is controversy about whether the Shebaa Farms are part of Lebanon or the Golan Heights, a region claimed by both Israel and Syria.

The region was captured by Israel from Syria during the Six Day War of 1967 and remained under Israeli control after the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon in 2000. The Lebanese refer to the ridge at the northern end of the Shebaa Farms area as the Kafr Shuba Hills, an area that Israel refers to as Har Dov. This ridge, also partly within Lebanon, is east of the Lebanese village of Kafr Shuba

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_Farms





I see no problems with using the same policy and tactics that was used to install dictators and psychopaths in positions of power to remove warmongers.
I do . I have no desire to become what I am against .

If you don't like it, you shouldn't have done it in the first place. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle.

You will have to explain that a bit .

Besides, you asked for a solution. If you do not like it, argue on the merits of the statement, whether it is workable or not and not because it goes against your bias.

Your solution is to have the Israeli people give up being a Democracy..summarily execute..or assasinate Generals and give up living under the rule of law. I find that interesting...why bother fighting terrorist fanatics when you can just become one ?

And your bias is considerably open on this board.

I am very biased against the Hezbollah ..because of their methods and their goal..destruction of an entire people and elimination of a nation is not something I look when I search for traits to admire in an orgganization I may be looking to support ..along with using human sheilds for politcal fodder and propaganda value..indiscriminate and purposefull targeting of civilians ..suicide bombings of civilians..kidnappings..and murders..NONE of these give me any reason to support them .

so yes I am very biased against such organizations . I do not understand how a decent person could not be .



I know that Israeli military didn't do squat against those convicted of unlawful killings even in the eyes of their own people. I also have footage of Israeli children inscribing names and other assorted words on IDF shells to the approval of the onlookers.
You will have to source that because I do not know..and I have footage of my Grandfather writing a note to Hitler on a 500 lb bomb before it was loaded on a B-17 going to Berlin...I also have pictures of children marching in Hezbollah pardes carrying automatic weapons...not to mention pictures of the results of children used as suicide bombers...whats your point ?

To put it simply, much of Israel approves of escalating the conflict.

No SHIT sherlock..they negotiated a peace with the UN and Lebenon..and what happened ? THEY were attacked by Hezbollah and are at war again..BECAUSE the UN and Lebenon did not live up to their end . WTF ?
They have to do the disarming of Hezbolah themselves..even the old blind retarded lady in the nursing home can see that .

And before you even try to bring up the "but they do it too" argument, I remind you that to use that argument is to use ALL other arguments of the same vein against Israel lest one wishes to look like a hypocrite.

They all do what ..try to survive surrounded by hostile organizations and counries that are sworn to their destruction ?

I know of no other country on earth .



Now if you had raised some points, there might have been some basis to your assertions. As it stands, they are hardly more than the ravings of a person who comes across opinions and statements he does not liked, but can't be arsed to argue properly.

How amusing.



You are very amusing ..I must say ...do you work at it ?

Geneva Convention applies to declared wars. If you want to invoke that, you're talking an exchange of prisoners. Obviously, Hezbollah could have killed the soldiers instead of kidnapping/taking them prisoner.

Nope, not according to the whole world. The US is supposed to obey the Geneva Conventions for any conflict, and the Europeans insist that it applies even to non-signatories, so Hezbollah is breaking the rules, hiding among civilians.

Not to confuse matters too much, I'll only address the points Ultra picked from posts I picked, or replied to me on, or whatever that was.

Was Hezbollah given an alternative to fighting that didn't involve 'disappearing'? Did they have anything to make it worth taking up more peaceful causes?

Its alternative was negotiating through peacefull means and joining the democracy in Lebenon. It chose instead to negotiate by kidnapping and raining rockets on civilians
Yep, they should have joined the democratic government. That would have given the Hamas democratically-elected government SO much more credibility, and allowed Israel to outright declare war and invade. Real winner that one.
Neither of you is right. There's no right solution here. But to return to NAS's scenario, the stronger partner (Britain) was the one to compromise, and the results have been good.

I suggest you take a good hard look at how the British dealth with the IRA. Or how the Thai's solved their problems with communists. They fought for a while certainly, but in the end, it wasn't guns, bombs, missiles and other assorted weapons that made them stop.
You need two partners to negotiate ..and one of them MUST at least recognize the others right to exist ..wake me up when that happens .
Israel recognizes the right of the Palestinians to a state: Lebanon. Not much, but something. And Gaza if they're good. Hamas doesn't recognize the right of Israel to exist. But are they in a position to enforce that opinion? Are they in a position to change that opinion, and fight Hezbollah themselves?
A strong lebanese democratic government, one that could effectively enforce the rule of law and take responsibility for attacks launched from it's territory, is the best solution. Gaza is harder, but I don't believe that's the subject.

Wake me up when the Hezbollah decide they can allow Jews to live ..anywhere on the planet...or have they not made plain that the goal of their organization is THE DESTRUCTION of ISRAEL . Not much room to negotiate do you think ?
[bolding mine] And you're helping by equating the existence of Israel with the right for Jews to live? Get a grip! Are bombs going off outside your house, or something? Is there some reason you're going crazy about this?

Sorry if I misattributed some of the quotes. This is impossible to do right. And I'm drunk.

Nope, not according to Woa! What, this shit? Don't we have enough trouble? Someone should cut loose with nukes. The US is supposed to obey the Geneva Conventions for any conflict, and the Europeans insist that it applies even to non-signatories, so Hezbollah is breaking the rules, hiding among civilians.
:D Little joke. I like you, really. :)
EDIT: BTW, I've formed the firm conviction that Corneliu is Henry Kissinger IRL. In Vino Veritas.

Nobel Hobos


I am not Jewish.

Hezbollah wants to rid the earth of jews. They say it...maybe its just Arab boasting...but its their words.


I am defending Israel because I see them as right in this particular instance.

I see no future in a continued armed struggle over Israels right to exist.
Its time to put away the war toys and sit down like men and work it out .

But the puppet masters wont allow it .

I do not need to have bombs going off outside my home to be outraged by the actions taken by others ..on all sides of the conflict.

The whole bunch of fucktards need to get their shit toghether before time runs out and someone does something even more stupid than they already have been doing. Like popping off a nuke or firing a chemical rocket into a city .

Then all bets are off ..you want to see a REAL war ?

Nobel Hobos
I am not Jewish.
Huh? Nothing I said was predicated on your race, religion or nationality. I only do that when someone waves it in my face.
Hezbollah wants to rid the earth of jews. They say it...maybe its just Arab boasting...but its their words.


I am defending Israel because I see them as right in this particular instance.

I see no future in a continued armed struggle over Israels right to exist.
Its time to put away the war toys and sit down like men and work it out .

But the puppet masters wont allow it .

I do not need to have bombs going off outside my home to be outraged by the actions taken by others ..on all sides of the conflict.

The whole bunch of fucktards need to get their shit toghether before time runs out and someone does something even more stupid than they already have been doing. Like popping off a nuke or firing a chemical rocket into a city .

Then all bets are off ..you want to see a REAL war ?
No. Only semi-humans who want to see dead foreigners on the news want war.

I wrote a long rave, but I'm cutting it and summarizing:: I support the continued existence of Israel. I wish the displaced Palestinians (and their descendents, who still think they deserve to live in a Palestine which hasn't existed for fifty years) would just make lives for themselves somewhere: in the Middle East or in my own country.
There's lots more that I want to say. But it will keep.

What year do you see that happening ? And will it come before some fucktard pops a nuke in the center of jerusilim to make it a moot point ?

The core of your position I believe. And it's good, but the reason it's rarely done is "the divine right of Kings," no leader will do that, because it puts them at personal risk.

Most major powers of the world participate in the removal of people they don't like. Not all of them use direct means, preferring to use proxies, but the principle remains.


Attacking the top echelons of another's military would get you the same back. It would work fine, but the givers of orders have a certain ... cowardice? ... about doing that.

Much like the order to fire a cruise missile a target some 300km away with no real prospects of retaliation?

Its alternative was negotiating through peacefull means and joining the democracy in Lebenon . It chose instead to negotiate by kidnapping and raining rockets on civilians and to try to destroy democracy in Lebenon..hezbollah as part of the government was not given a mandate by the Lebanese people to declare war on Israel..Good choices they made and wonderfull partners in your government .


You need two partners to negotiate ..and one of them MUST at least recognize the others right to exist ..wake me up when that happens .

Israel doesn't recognize Hezbollah's right to exist. At the same time, it demands Lebanon do something about it, while smashing Lebanon.

Quid pro quo.

Israel's military isn't interested in ending the conflict. Or even bringing a real end to Hezbollah. All it does is the same thing Hezbollah does. Fling high explosives and make ludricious demands and collateral damage be damned.

If Hezbollah was smart, they'd have insiders and informants infiltrate the government and slowly get it to do what they want.

If Israel's military was smart, they'd set up some sort of cooperative venture with Lebanon to absorb Hezbollah and dismantle it's offensive ability while stripping it's ability to recruit new members.

In conclusion, Israel's military is as retarded as Hezbollahs leaders. Which is why 'accidents' should befall them. When the stupid people are dead, maybe more intelligent ones can take their place.


Wake me up when the Hezbollah decide they can allow Jews to live ..anywhere on the planet...or have they not made plain that the goal of their organization is THE DESTRUCTION of ISRAEL . Not much room to negotiate do you think ?

Israel =/= Jews. Jewland maybe. But again I point you to how the Thais dealt with communists insurgents. What did the communists want? To make Thailand communists. In case you hadn't noticed, Thailand is a republic with a monarch. Where are the communists? Absorbed into Thailand again.

Maybe the one who needs waking up is you. Those blinkers are preventing you from seeing solutions that worked because they don't fall into your "destroy everything" approach.


Shebaa Farms is a disputed agricultural area *snip*

So who exactly is bombing that area? Hezbollah? Israel?


I do . I have no desire to become what I am against .


And yet you supported wars of regime change and nation building. How is that any different than merely removing troublemakers? Preferably with an ice axe in the brain?

So much less bloodshed, with similar ends achieved.


You will have to explain that a bit .

Very simple. If at any one point of time in history, you supported the violent overthrow of a regime who was not actively participating in external military activities AKA invasions, then you supported the use of tactics that you now say you deplore.

I think you don't deplore them at all. You only deplore it's use when applied against your favorites.


Your solution is to have the Israeli people give up being a Democracy

Rubbish. The IDF military does not promote its Generals and strategic thinkers with a democratic vote by the public. This is nothing more than a straw man.


..summarily execute..or assasinate Generals and give up living under the rule of law. I find that interesting...why bother fighting terrorist fanatics when you can just become one ?

Generals who advocated and forced a pointless war which will serve nothing but create more strife and bloodshed in the future. Their removal from the living serves a greater good than allowing them to pursue this ridiculous dream of victory by high explosives.

Less people would be dead and there would be less ruin if it was they who were dead.

Again, you avoid actually looking at the context of my argument. Remove the generals, set the table between Lebanon and Israel, come to an agreement that sees the eventual absorbtion of Hezbollah and it's nullification as a fighting force.

You care nothing for the ultimate goals. You only want to go "oh, it's so bad to think that Israel might have to pay something for it."

You were never interested in working strategies were you? All you were interested in was finding those who would give you yes-men answers while rejecting those you didn't like because it played no favorites.


I am very biased against the Hezbollah ..because of their methods and their goal..destruction of an entire people and elimination of a nation is not something I look when I search for traits to admire in an orgganization I may be looking to support ..along with using human sheilds for politcal fodder and propaganda value..indiscriminate and purposefull targeting of civilians ..suicide bombings of civilians..kidnappings..and murders..NONE of these give me any reason to support them .

Your bias blinds you to the fact that attempting to remove Hezbollah with nothing but pure violence is unworkable unless one rebuilds Treblinka and exterminates an entire people.

Do you advocate that?

If not, then you will never see the end of the cycle violence. Humans fight back when met with violence. They always will.=


so yes I am very biased against such organizations . I do not understand how a decent person could not be .

No, that is a lie. The truth of your post is that you do not understand how a decent person does not advocate the immediate violent end to all Hezbollah members.

Because you are blinded by hate. So you only think to destroy in the most primitive way.


I also have pictures of children marching in Hezbollah pardes carrying automatic weapons...not to mention pictures of the results of children used as suicide bombers...whats your point ?

The point is that this makes the Israeli children in the picture no better than the children in those Hezbollah parades. Neither of them are soldiers, but all the understand is "DESTROY THEM ALL!"

A generation of warmongers, will continue to create another generation of warmongers.


They have to do the disarming of Hezbolah themselves..even the old blind retarded lady in the nursing home can see that .

There is no reason to go against the disarming of Hezbollah. But the means of doing it will NOT achieve that goal. Palestine and Vietnam has proven that violence by the army to end violence by guerillas is nothing more than a pipe dream.


You are very amusing ..I must say ...do you work at it ?

No, what is amusing is the unmasking of your character on this board, and the blatant falsehood in your OP.