NationStates Jolt Archive

I ran across this article on the website http://volokh.com/

[David Kopel]
United Nations an Accomplice in Hezbollah Kidnapping: After Hezbollah's kidnapping of a pair of Israeli soldiers spurred an Israeli counter-attack, many critics of Israel actions have suggested that the United Nations can serve as a buffer between Israel and Hezbollah. To the contrary, the United Nations has a well-established record of collaboration with Hezbollah in the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers.

The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) has been deployed since 1978, not long after Israel first entered Lebanon in pursuit of PLO terrorists. UNIFIL was created pursuant to Security Council Resolution 425, for the purpose of "confirming the withdrawal of Israeli forces, restoring international peace and security and assisting the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area." Quite obviously UNFIL has utterly failed to achieve the Security Council's objectives, either before or after Israel's 2000 complete withdrawal from Lebanon. One reason is that UNIFIL does not interdict Hezbollah attacks on Israel. Instead, UNIFIL allows Hezbollah to set up positions next to UNFIL units, in effect using UNIFIL as human shields against Israeli counterstrikes. (Aluf Benn, Israel accuses UN of collaborating with Hezbollah," Haaretz, Sept. 11, 2005.)

UNIFIL's most notorious collaboration with terrorists involved the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli soldiers, and the subsequent cover-up.

On October 7, 2000, Hezbollah terrorists entered Israel, attacked three Israeli soldiers on Mount Dov, and abducted them Lebanon. The kidnapping was witnessed by several dozen UNIFIL soldiers who stood idle. One of the soldier witnesses described the kidnapping: the terrorists set of an explosive which stunned the Israeli soldiers. Clad in UN uniforms, the terrorists called out, "Come, come, we’ll help you."

The Israeli soldiers approached the men in UN uniforms. Then, a Hezbollah bomb detonated—-apparently prematurely. It wounded the disguised Hezbollah commander, and three Israeli soldiers.

Two other terrorists in U.N. uniforms dragged their Hezbollah commander and the three wounded soldiers into a getaway car.

According an Indian solider in UNIFIL who witnessed the kidnapping, "By this stage, there was a big commotion and dozens of UN soldiers from the Indian brigade came around." The witness stated that the brigade knew that the kidnappers in UN uniform were Hezbollah. One soldiers said that the brigade should arrest the Hezbollah, but the brigade did nothing.

According to the Indian soldier, the UNFIL brigade in the area "could have prevented the kidnapping."

"I’m very sorry about what happened, because we saw what happened," he said. Hezbollah "were wearing our uniforms and it was too bad we didn’t stop them."

It appears that at least four of the UNIFIL "peacekeepers," all from India, has received bribes from Hezbollah in order to assist the kidnapping by helping them get to the kidnapping spot and find the Israeli soldiers. Some of the bribery involved alcohol and Lebanese women.

The Indian brigade later had a bitter internal argument, as some members complained that the brigade had betrayed its peacekeeping mandate. An Indian government investigation sternly criticized the brigade's conduct.

There is evidence of far greater payments by Hezbollah to the UNIFIL Indian brigade, including hundreds of thousands of dollars for assistance in the kidnapping and cover-up.

The UN cover-up began almost immediately.

Lebanon's The Daily Star reported the story told by a former officer of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL), which is part of the UN Truce Supervision Organization (UNTSO). ("UN 'destroyed' evidence after abduction of 3 Israeli troops," The Daily Star, July 20, 2001.)

A few hours after the kidnapping, UNTSO learned that two abandoned cars had been discovered. One was a white Nissan Pathfinder with fake UN insignia; it had hit an embankment because it was being driven so fast that the driver missed a turn. The other was a Range Rover; it was missing a tire rim, and was still running when it was discovered.

Rather than using the very-recently-abandoned vehicles as clues to rescue the kidnap victims, the UN initiated a cover-up. The next morning, eighteen hours after the kidnapping, a team of OGL and the Indian UNIFIL began removing the contents of the cars.

The Range Rover was soaked with blood. Among the contents of the vehicles may have been a cell phone belonging to the terrorists. The UNTSO officer confirmed that the cars contained "extremely sensitive" items which included "current and relevant information that could have been easily linked to the incident."

A UNIFIL peacekeeper videotaped the removal of the contents, and attempted to tow one of the cars. According to a much-later U.N. report, there were fifty items taken from the car, seven of them blood-stained. (Report of the fact-finding investigation relating to the abduction of three Israeli soldiers on 7 October 2000 and subsequent relevant events, Aug. 2, 2001) - http://www.un.org/News/dh/latest/videorpt.htm.

The end of the UNIFIL videotape featured armed Lebanese men confronting the UN forces, and taking the cars away from the UN. The UN personnel did not resist, because, they later claimed, the cars did not belong to the UN anyway.

The UNTSO officer told The Daily Star that the UN ordered its personnel to destroy all photographs and written reports about the incident.

The U.N. did not provide the Israelis with the automobile contents, or the videotape, both of which might have helped the Israelis rescue the kidnap victims. Instead, the seized contents of the cars were taken to a town in Lebanon, stored in a safe, and some were eventually returned to Hezbollah.

Israel found out about the videotape, and demanded that the UN let Israeli investigators see it. Kofi Annan and his Special Envoy denied that any videotape existed. It is not clear whether Annan was lying, or whether he was misled.

Nine months after the kidnapping, July 6, 2001, the UN admitted that is had the videotape. Annan ordered an internal UN Report, which was led by UN undersecretary-General Joseph Connor. (Connor was later implicated in the Oil-for-Food scam.) The report revealed that the UN had two additional videotapes—one of which contained still photographs from the kidnapping itself. The UN investigation declared that there was no evidence that the UNIFIL forces had been bribed, or that the UN had deliberately misled anyone.

Even after admitting the existence of the first videotape, Annan refused to allow Israel to view it. He claimed that letting Israel see evidence about the kidnapping would undermine the UN’s neutrality. Thus, Annan insisted on neutrality between innocent victims and terrorists who had used fake UN insignia and who had taken vehicles from UN staff a gunpoint.

The United States House of Representatives, on July 30, 2001, passed by a vote of 411-4 a resolution urging the UN to allow Israel to see the videotape. Annan relented, but only under the condition that the tape be edited so as to hide the faces of the Hezbollah perpetrators. He also agreed to give the Israelis some, but not all, of the items which the UN had seized from the getaway cars.

On January 29, 2004, the bodies of the murdered Israelis were returned to Israel by Hezbollah, as part of a prisoner exchange.

Thoughts, anyone? And please, keep it civil. Logical, well-reasoned thoughts, not insults and epithets.

Of course there's an Anti-UN bias. Why do you think the US vetos many Resolutions against Israel? :rolleyes:

The UN has a revolting bias against Israel. Could you imagine if any other nation had hundreds of rockets fired into it as its military members were taken hostage by a terrorist organization? The UN hates America and Israel because they actualy have the balls to act for their own interests and defend themselves. Kofi Annan's World where everyone could be just another Sweden will never come to be, thank God.

Of course there's an Anti-UN bias. Why do you think the US vetos many Resolutions against Israel? :rolleyes:
Um, I think you meant anti-Israel bias by the UN?

UN bias against Israel?

Of course.

And also biased against Saddam's Iraq, also biased against Hezbollah&others, also biased against North Korea, also biased against Iran.

Completely biased, of course. And I understand it.

Um, I think you meant anti-Israel bias by the UN?

You know what I ment.

UN bias against Israel?

Of course.

And also biased against Saddam's Iraq, also biased against Hezbollah&others, also biased against North Korea, also biased against Iran.

Completely, of course. And I understand it.


Israel is in the same moral level as Hussein's Iraq, Hezbollah, North Korea, and Iran? I hope that is not what you meant.

Well, as much as I dislike and distain the UN, I find this article to be total...totally non...complete...unadulterated bull s.... However, if there are other unbiased sources that substantiates this then I guess I would have to reconsider.

In any case, see my sig.

You know what I ment.
Quoted for thruth.

Well, as much as I dislike and distain the UN, I find this article to be total...totally non...complete...unadulterated bull s.... However, if there are other unbiased sources that substantiates this then I guess I would have to reconsider.

In any case, see my sig.

Instead of putting forth a counter claim you attack the source. Do you have anything to offer other then questioning data?

Israel is in the same moral level as Hussein's Iraq, Hezbollah, North Korea, and Iran? I hope that is not what you meant.

Before I enter in the matter, I stated in that reply a fact, all those are countries have seen promoted against them lots of resolutions. Some passed, some failed, but... the UN has not claimed 50 times for Sweden stop being a menace for peace...

1.- :rolleyes: I'm in absolute opposition to terrorism. Here we have suffered it in many ways.

2.- Israel is not acting fairly, so I understand that the United Nations promote propositions with the word "Israel" in the title.

Anti-Semmites are everywhere. Thier hatred surpasses any logic, reason, or rhyme..

Consider this; Isral is smaller then some of our states, it's tiny compared to the rest of the middle-east and yet they persist to fight it, calling it thier land, why can't they just let The Jews live in peace on thier little landheap?

Cause they're hatmongerers.. I completely sympathise for Isral, look at who dislikes The Jews.

The Nazis.
The Klan.
The Taliban.
Liberals.

Nice people liberals are asscosiated with huh?

Even if Isral was gone it would not end thier hatred, The middle-east would still be assholes who shit all over our countries and ways of life.

It's rascism, pure and simple. We worry about preadjudice here in the United States meanwhile a Jew can't leave his house without risking being shot..

the big mistake that many people make at the UN and elsewhere is to put nations like America or Israel who act to defend themselves and do their best to go after terrorists on the same moral level as the terrorists themselves. The Israeli military is in no way comparable to Hezbollah. America is not equal to Al-queda. We do not target civilians. Civilian casualties occur, but we try our best to avoid them when possible. We are not the ones who only exist to slaughter innocent people as our only policy. We do not use a religion to fan hate into war. We treat our prisoners to good food and geneva rights instead of beheading them. The differences go on and on. Yet in the U.N.'s mind everyone is equal. Thank God they were not around in 1938 it would have been.....well...Germany has the right to defend itself....blah blah blah.

Instead of putting forth a counter claim you attack the source. Do you have anything to offer other then questioning data?

The Article above: "the United Nations has a well-established record of collaboration with Hezbollah in the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers."

Now, Really!?!

Israel is not acting fairly, so I understand that the United Nations promote propositions with the word "Israel" in the title.

They are defending themselves the same way that America did after 911. The only thing that is not fair is that they have been pressured into doing less then they are capable of.

Anti-Semmites are everywhere. Thier hatred surpasses any logic, reason, or rhyme..

Consider this; Isral is smaller then some of our states, it's tiny compared to the rest of the middle-east and yet they persist to fight it, calling it thier land, why can't they just let The Jews live in peace on thier little landheap?

Cause they're hatmongerers.. I completely sympathise for Isral, look at who dislikes The Jews.

The Nazis.
The Klan.
The Taliban.
Liberals.

Nice people liberals are asscosiated with huh?

Even if Isral was gone it would not end thier hatred, The middle-east would still be assholes who shit all over our countries and ways of life.

It's rascism, pure and simple. We worry about preadjudice here in the United States meanwhile a Jew can't leave his house without risking being shot..

Don't forget Christians in your soon-to-be-banned rant. They hate the Jews too. Something about them killing their god or something....

The Article above: "the United Nations has a well-established record of collaboration with Hezbollah in the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers."

Now, Really!?!
That is called stating an arguement. In writing an article that tries to make a particular point, you start with a proposition - the sentence you quoted - and then offer evidence to support that position. That is exactly what the writer did. Your counter-arguement, please?

Instead of putting forth a counter claim you attack the source. Do you have anything to offer other then questioning data?

If the data is accurate then there should be more than one source. Please provide it. I did not attack it I question its veracity.

Why is attacking the source invalid? I clicked the link, and under the "who are we" section, all it did was list a bunch of very Hebraic-looking names.

Am I disputing that even UN Peacekeepers are vulnerable to bribes? Not at all. However, I'm not going to pile on by taking this ONE source, and what looks like a slanted and unsubstantiated source at that, completely to heart and basing my opinions on it. I don't know what conditions are like as a peacekeeper in Lebanon, but I'd wager it's bad enough to assume that some soldiers, thousands of miles from home, might be weak enough to accept bribes and let bad things happen (especially if doing their job might mean dying). Does that excuse it? Hell no. If they did what is purported in your link, then this mess is on them, and if they believe in karma, they're in deep afterlife shit.

In every research course I've ever taken, the primary command is "consider your source". If we can't do that, then we can't have anything approaching a reasoned debate.

The Article above: "the United Nations has a well-established record of collaboration with Hezbollah in the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers."

Now, Really!?!

Kofi Annan had a nice little series of meetings with Hezbollah's leadership. Now the U.N. under his leadership acknowledges that Hezbollah attacked Israel and is the cause of the conflict but they deny Israel any way to defend itself. If Israel listened to Annan and held a ceasefire Hezbollah would be empowered and emboldened without measure. Annan has giving direct comfort to Israel's enemies while denying its right to defend itself. It really makes me wonder why we keep giving money to a hapless, spy filled, impotent body like the U.N. That real estate in Manhatten is valuable you know...:D

Well since the point of the UN is to deal with humanitarian crises and Israel has been one big humanitarian crisis since about 1948...

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, Israel has done some lousy things. I don't care if you justify it as 'revenge' ' self-defence' or any other term, they've successfully reduced the palestinian people massively.

No the palestinians don't tend to help their cause much. No the arab nations nearby don't help either. But Israel's is the iron fist that actually lands the punches.

Don't forget Christians in your soon-to-be-banned rant. They hate the Jews too. Something about them killing their god or something....
Don't know if you are American or not, but the strongest supporters of the nation of Israel in the USA are the evangelical Christians.

Heard it on NPR a couple of days ago, lest you question my sources.:D

Don't forget Christians in your soon-to-be-banned rant. They hate the Jews too. Something about them killing their god or something....
That's an ignorant statement. Most Christians (besides the nutjobs) know that Jesus planned to die, so what The Jews did was moot, besides, The Jews did not kill Jesus, The Romans did. (Is there anything The Romans didn't do?) and Jesus was infact Jewish, so it'd be pretty stupid to hate Jews.

Also if I remember correctly Jesus is suppose to ressurect again from Nazzarath or some crap like that. I don't know, I'm not Christian. But what I do know is no real Christian would be an anti-semmite. Just as no real Christian would be pro-choice. It go's with the package..

Don't forget Christians in your soon-to-be-banned rant. They hate the Jews too. Something about them killing their god or something....

It is not a basic part of Christianity to hate Jews. I am a devout Christian and nobody at my church including my priest has anything but praise for Israel. You should take your anti-Christian bias and throw it away. It undermines your credibility.

That's an ignorant statement. Most Christians (besides the nutjobs) know that Jesus planned to die, so what The Jews did was moot, besides, The Jews did not kill Jesus, The Romans did. (Is there anything The Romans didn't do?) and Jesus was infact Jewish, so it'd be pretty stupid to hate Jews.

Also if I remember correctly Jesus is suppose to ressurect again from Nazzarath or some crap like that. I don't know, I'm not Christian. But what I do know is no real Christian would be an anti-semmite. Just as no real Christian would be pro-choice. It go's with the package..
Oh, I'm sorry.

I thought we were playing the "Lets make inane, incorrect and blanket statements" game.

I do apologise.

If the data is accurate then there should be more than one source. Please provide it. I did not attack it I question its veracity.
There are two links embedded in the article itself, one to the UN documentation of the investigation, and one that didn't paste very well to another newspaper article.

They are defending themselves the same way that America did after 911. The only thing that is not fair is that they have been pressured into doing less then they are capable of.

So, killing innocent civilians, children and women, is fair? Think that every israeli dead children could never think about "the conflict", but the same happens to the lebanese children dead these days. They destroyed an airport, destroyed the palestinian external affairs ministry, arrested the whole palestinian government, blasted half of a city and killed 300 innocent people "to end terrorism and rescue 2 soldiers"; but those soldiers haven't been freed and terrorism has not ended.

Those 2 soldiers were in the beginning an exchange coin for Hezbollah prisoners, that would have returned home if Israel had sit to talk.

Now probably they are dead.

If you try to stop the death of innocent civilians, precisely killing civilians, you dive into the same moral level than a terrorist group.

Counter terrorism is fighting terrorists, not blasting an airport.

And any defender (anyhow, anywhere) of the death of those 300 innocent people... well... that person would be justifying the unneccesary death of people. How would you call it?

A journalist said today "Holocaust can't give carte blanche to attack all the surrounding nations".

Think by yourself, I'm denouncing Goliath's attacks, but not defending terrorism - I'm denouncing it.

Well since the point of the UN is to deal with humanitarian crises and Israel has been one big humanitarian crisis since about 1948...

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, Israel has done some lousy things. I don't care if you justify it as 'revenge' ' self-defence' or any other term, they've successfully reduced the palestinian people massively.

No the palestinians don't tend to help their cause much. No the arab nations nearby don't help either. But Israel's is the iron fist that actually lands the punches.

Israel was created by the U.N. and within weeks was attacked on all sides by military forces from 7 Muslim nations. Israel won that battle....with no help from the U.N. It has been a fight for survival for Israel from day one. Crazy Islamo-fascists dream day and night of Israel's destruction and the second holocaust, and Kofi Annan can only think of the struggle in terms of the two sides being morally equal. I have had enough of it.

That is called stating an arguement. In writing an article that tries to make a particular point, you start with a proposition - the sentence you quoted - and then offer evidence to support that position. That is exactly what the writer did. Your counter-arguement, please?

They started the article with what is know as sensationalism. Its sole purpose is to sell the news. The lead statements are seldom backed up with facts but are backed up with plenty of innuendoes.

That is called stating an arguement. In writing an article that tries to make a particular point, you start with a proposition - the sentence you quoted - and then offer evidence to support that position. That is exactly what the writer did. Your counter-arguement, please?
My counter... well, I was serving under the UN in Lebanon in the late 90's... I don't remember us collaborating with the Hez much. We took our Israeli hostages on our own. :rolls eyes violently:

Those 2 soldiers were in the beginning an exchange coin for Hezbollah prisoners, that would have returned home if Israel had sit to talk.

Now probably they are dead.

If you try to stop the death of innocent civilians, precisely killing civilians, you dive into the same moral level than a terrorist group.

Counter terrorism is fighting terrorists, not blasting an airport.

And any defender (anyhow, anywhere) of the death of those 300 innocent people... well... that person would be justifying the unneccesary death of people. How would you call it?

A journalist said today "Holocaust can't give carte blanche to attack all the surrounding nations".

Think by yourself, I'm denouncing Goliath's attacks, but not defending terrorism - I'm denouncing it.

Civilian casualties occur in war when you search out an enemy. And how is it that you know that the 300 were all innocent hmmm? You think Israeli intelligence is that bad? heh, doubt it. Hezbollah attacks the unarmed alone and only exists to kill civilians. Hezbollah killed 270 somthing unarmed American soldiers who were asleep in their barracks back in the 80's. They have a decades long history of vile acts. Israel is trying to destroy them and will succeed. The world will be better. And you are worried about a tactical move involving an airport? Ever hear of TWA flight 847?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/TWA_847_Hijackers_with_captain.jpg

Israel was created by the U.N. and within weeks was attacked on all sides by military forces from 7 Muslim nations. Israel won that battle....with no help from the U.N. It has been a fight for survival for Israel from day one. Crazy Islamo-fascists dream day and night of Israel's destruction and the second holocaust, and Kofi Annan can only think of the struggle in terms of the two sides being morally equal. I have had enough of it.

Crazy people dream their dreams. Normal people die for them.

And they die on BOTH sides of the line. There are a good number of jews who dream of a second holocaust too. This time one where the Jews are sending arabs to the 'showerblocks'.

My counter... well, I was serving under the UN in Lebanon in the late 90's... I don't remember us collaborating with the Hez much. We took our Israeli hostages on our own. :rolls eyes violently:
Not that you would be sarcastic .... :D

The current mentality of the international community aside, one should not overlook the fact that the UN facilitated the Creation of the modern Israeli state.

It is not unreasonable to suggest they might feel somewhat more responsible for the violence propagated on large part by Israel then they would of say... North Korea.

Civilian casualties occur in war when you search out an enemy. And how is it that you know that the 300 were all innocent hmmm? You think Israeli intelligence is that bad? heh, doubt it
Riiiight. :rolleyes:

Hezbollah attacks the unarmed alone and only exists to kill civilians. Hezbollah killed 270 somthing unarmed American soldiers who were asleep in their barracks back in the 80's.
A legitimate act. It wasn't terrorism.

Crazy people dream their dreams. Normal people die for them.

And they die on BOTH sides of the line. There are a good number of jews who dream of a second holocaust too. This time one where the Jews are sending arabs to the 'showerblocks'.

Once again, we have a person putting the two sides, Hezbollah TERRORISTS, and the sovereign nation of Israel on an equal playing field. WRONG. And about (hahah), Jews wishing to pull a Hitler like holocaust on "arabs", can you source your crazy statement in some way...or did you just make that up. I know the President of Iran loves talking about the coming of the second holocaust. Show where an Israeli official has said somthing similar about arabs. or any prominent jewish group at all. If you can't then shame on you for saying such a mean thing.

Riiiight. :rolleyes:


A legitimate act. It wasn't terrorism.
You don't seem all torn up by the deaths of those Marines, terrorism or not. Are their lives not just as valuable?

Not that you would be sarcastic .... :D
Not particularly, no... and I managed to confuse the years... i was there 1986-87... that's not 'late 90's' by any stretch of imagination... so sorry.
Edit: Jesus! My car is so old!

Riiiight. :rolleyes:


A legitimate act. It wasn't terrorism.

When a bomb created by a non-military force explodes outside a barracks when 271 marines are inside and they all die...it is terrorism. Disgusting barbarism too. Tell my father's friend who had friends vaporized in their bunks that night by HEZBOLLAH that it was a legitimate act. Good grief.

Some people specificly target the unarmed to kill as many innocent people as possible (Hezbollah, Al_queda), others do not ( America, Israel), can't you see the difference? If you can't, you share the anti-Israel bias of the U.N. They can't see the difference.

When a bomb created by a non-military force explodes outside a barracks when 271 marines are inside and they all die...it is terrorism. Disgusting barbarism too. Tell my father's friend who had friends vaporized in their bunks that night by HEZBOLLAH that it was a legitimate act. Good grief.
Despite your opinion, the US military deems it otherwise. I suggest you refresh yourself with their definition.

Israel is trying to destroy them and will succeed. The world will be better.

I'm going to bed since it's 5:30 AM here. But it seems I'm already dreaming:

"The world will be better".

Lol.

Or maybe YOU are the dreamer...

Do you need somebody to explain you that here NOBODY is Good, and NOBODY is Worse?

Will be the world better for the woundeds today in the Middle East?

How would you note that the world will be better? What do you mean with it?

Remember that in 1919 people thought that wars had ended forever...

Good afternight for everybody.

I have to go now but when a suicide bomber blows up 271 sleeping men with 1200 pounds of TNT it is terrorism.

Bye now.:sniper:

A legitimate act. It wasn't terrorism.

Why was that? Other than the fact they're American, therefore legit targets.


And the veracity of the source is important to ask, however, it is much too easy to just say "your source is bunk" just because it disagrees with your opinion.

Why was that? Other than the fact they're American, therefore legit targets.


And the veracity of the source is important to ask, however, it is much too easy to just say "your source is bunk" just because it disagrees with your opinion.

They were a military target. Or are we not allowed to attack until the enemy is all lined up and ready for us?

While we're at it let's all sit down for a cup of tea with the enemy officers before the battle. No hard feelings eh?

They were a military target. Or are we not allowed to attack until the enemy is all lined up and ready for us?

While we're at it let's all sit down for a cup of tea with the enemy officers before the battle. No hard feelings eh?

Or play football with the enemy :D

They were a military target. Or are we not allowed to attack until the enemy is all lined up and ready for us?

While we're at it let's all sit down for a cup of tea with the enemy officers before the battle. No hard feelings eh?
What is this "we"? I HOPE you are using it as the royal "we", in which case you are just being a snob. Otherwise, it sounds like you worked with Hezbollah.

While not strictly a terrorist action, as the target was military, it was certainly despicable, and used the classic terrorist technique of suicide bombers. Certainly "terrorist-like", and carried out by a terrorist organization.

You seem awfully quick to defend a group that blows up its own children to advance its ideology.

You know what I ment.
No, I don't. Not trying to be confrontational, it's just you generally come down on the conservative side of things, and that statement was inconsistent with most US conservatives, who have little liking for the UN.

What is this "we"? I HOPE you are using it as the royal "we", in which case you are just being a snob. Otherwise, it sounds like you worked with Hezbollah.

While not strictly a terrorist action, as the target was military, it was certainly despicable, and used the classic terrorist technique of suicide bombers. Certainly "terrorist-like", and carried out by a terrorist organization.

You seem awfully quick to defend a group that blows up its own children to advance its ideology.

'We' as in any military, paramilitary or any other organisation that makes war.

And stop trying to taint me by association. Amusing as it is to watch it's not a nice thing to do.

I'm not defending anyone, I'm just pointing out that it was a legitemate military target and thus, not terrorism but a genuine military action.

I hate to say 'been there', but been there. It's obvious that Israeli 3 weeks bombardment wont do what Isreali 20 year occupation didn't achieve; ending the Hez. You just can't bomb them away from southern Leb. They aren't there.

Unfortunately, you cannot bring troops to keep the peace either, the last time we UN troops were there, all we could do was duck and cover. Literally.

I personally don't want to hear excuses from either camps; kill eachother already - my duty-free Porche is too old... I need another one... go ahead punks.

[QUOTE=H4ck5]Anti-Semmites are everywhere. Thier hatred surpasses any logic, reason, or rhyme..

Consider this; Isral is smaller then some of our states, it's tiny compared to the rest of the middle-east and yet they persist to fight it, calling it thier land, why can't they just let The Jews live in peace on thier little landheap?

Cause they're hatmongerers.. I completely sympathise for Isral, look at who dislikes The Jews.

The Nazis.
The Klan.
The Taliban.
Liberals.

Nice people liberals are asscosiated with huh?[QUOTE=H4ck5]

isnt it funny that many American Jews are liberal?

Or play football with the enemy :D

Well to be honest I'd rather play football with a Hun than mow him down because his king's an arsehole.

But if we have to make war we can at least not pretend it's all OK and we can go home and talk about it over a pint afterwards.

No, I don't. Not trying to be confrontational, it's just you generally come down on the conservative side of things, and that statement was inconsistent with most US conservatives, who have little liking for the UN.

1) My statement was only half sarcastic.
2) I ment to say anti-Israeli for every time I turn around, US is vetoing another resolution against Israel and telling them to stop fighting the war on terrorr.

They were a military target. Or are we not allowed to attack until the enemy is all lined up and ready for us?

Fair enough. PM just came across as saying they're legit because they were American.

While we're at it let's all sit down for a cup of tea with the enemy officers before the battle. No hard feelings eh?

That's how it used to be done. Hell, I wouldn't mind it. Tea is good for everyone. :D

Good luck with arguing wether the Israeli 'precise bomb' killing 4 kids was better than the Hez's Katjusha killing 4 civvies. Jesus, that's so clueless.

Good luck with arguing wether the Israeli 'precise bomb' killing 4 kids was better than the Hez's Katjusha killing 4 civvies. Jesus, that's so clueless.

Oh brother! Hezbollah doesn't care what it hits whereas Israel does go to great pains to avoid civilian casualties.

Oh brother! Hezbollah doesn't care what it hits whereas Israel does go to great pains to avoid civilian casualties.
Are you actually dumb enough to believe I take sides? Read the post again and make amandments.. i'll make em

And it's:" Oh brother, IDF doesn't really care about civvies either...really.

Are you actually dumb enough to believe I take sides? Read the post again and make amandments.. i'll make em

And it's:" Oh brother, IDF doesn't really care about civvies either...really.

Did I accuse you of taking sides? No I did not. I advise you make amendments to your statement.

And to number 2! :rolleyes:

I had a load of questions... instead i will answer: no and no... and ask; what?
Edit: whereas Israel does go to great pains to avoid civilian casualties.Are you fucking drunk enough? Really!
' great pains'... one to ten Hez - child ratio... pains allright.

Hez being as much at fault, though... the fucktards.

I had a load of questions... instead i will answer: no and no... and ask; what?

The IDF at one point tried to care about civilians, but it was nearly impossible to not kill them as the terrorists hid within the civilian populus. However, as the entire world will condemn any civilian death Israel makes, most if not all accidental, frankly, if I was in charge of the IDF, I'd stop caring too. I'd be thinking "hell, the world is going to condemn me no matter what I do, so there's no point in taking more risks for my soldiers for no reason."

The IDF at one point tried to care about civilians, but it was nearly impossible to not kill them as the terrorists hid within the civilian populus. However, as the entire world will condemn any civilian death Israel makes, most if not all accidental, frankly, if I was in charge of the IDF, I'd stop caring too. I'd be thinking "hell, the world is going to condemn me no matter what I do, so there's no point in taking more risks for my soldiers for no reason."
True. IDF targets Hez. Always has. The numbers now are abnormal, though, don't you think? It's like 1 Hez to every 40 civvie killed..? no?

Edit: I was a part of the blue beret occuping force, yet we never managed to cause this much casualties... UN as we were... I mean I raped people as much as I could, and dodged bullets, UN as I was... but...

The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, The New York Times reported on Saturday.

Citing US officials who spoke on Friday on condition of anonymity, the Times said the decision to ship the weapons quickly came after relatively little debate within the administration, and noted in its report that its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others who could perceive Washington as aiding Israel in the manner that Iran has armed Hezbollah.

The munitions are actually part of a multimillion-dollar arms-sale package approved last year which Israel is able to tap when it needs to, the officials told the Times. But some military officers said the request for expedited delivery was unusual and indicated that Israel has many targets it plans to hit in Lebanon.

The arms shipment has not been announced publicly. The officials who described the administration's decision to rush the munitions included employees of two government agencies, one of whom described the shipment as just one example of a broad array of armaments that the United States has long provided Israel, the Times said.

Pentagon and military officials declined to describe in detail the size and contents of the shipment to Israel, the newspaper said, and they would not say whether the munitions were being shipped by cargo aircraft or some other means.

But one US official said the shipment should not be compared to the kind of an "emergency resupply" of dwindling Israeli stockpiles that was provided during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, according to the Times report.

A spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington told the Times: "We have been using precision-guided munitions in order to neutralize the military capabilities of Hezbollah and to minimize harm to civilians. As a rule, however, we do not comment on Israel's defense acquisitions."

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11965-6078273,00.html
Hmmmm

I ran across this article on the website http://volokh.com/

[David Kopel]


Thoughts, anyone? And please, keep it civil. Logical, well-reasoned thoughts, not insults and epithets.

The UN made Israel. One can certainly understand the UN's disappointment.

Violence broke out outside the US Consulate in Auckland during an anti-Israel protest this afternoon. The incident happened on Customs Street. The protestors were condemning comments by US Secretary of State Condaleezza Rice who said her country will not support a ceasefire.

More than 200 people took part in the march. Protester Simon Oosterman was apprehended by police after pulling the US flag down to half-mast. He was head-locked by an officer and dragged to the ground. Mr Oosterman says the police actions were unwarranted. He says it was extremely violent and painful and he thanks the other protestors who came to his rescue. It was several minutes before police backup was able to contain the crowd.

At this stage details remain sketchy, but it seems some police officers were hurt and there have been several arrests.

The group Students for Justice from Auckland University and members of the Palestine Human Rights Campaign are involved in today's march.
http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11964-6078226,00.html
Hmmmmmmm

The UN made Israel. One can certainly understand the UN's disappointment.

It's more than that. The UN have simply realized that they have allowed statehood to an evil religious group and that this is an error that needs correction.

It's more than that. The UN have simply realized that they have allowed statehood to an evil religious group and that this is an error that needs correction.


Eye see.

Your take is as follows:
Jews are: an evil religious group

isnt it funny that many American Jews are liberal?
and some israeli jews are anti-semitic and anti-zionists which support iran and the terrorists anywhere, while blame every israeli act. what your point?

Why is attacking the source invalid? I clicked the link, and under the "who are we" section, all it did was list a bunch of very Hebraic-looking names.

I've said this before and I will say it again

Bias is not demonstratable from the providence of a source alone

To say "argh! this source is written by X it will be biased towards X and X's friends/allies" etc is an over simplistic understanding of bias

To prove bias exists for certianty you must demonstrate how the bias has caused the facts to be misrepresneted or opions to be put forward as facts.

To do this you have to provide other evidence

Oh brother! Hezbollah doesn't care what it hits whereas Israel does go to great pains to avoid civilian casualties.Yes they do. They were disappointed that they killed to Arab children.

The IDF at one point tried to care about civilians, but it was nearly impossible to not kill them as the terrorists hid within the civilian populus. However, as the entire world will condemn any civilian death Israel makes, most if not all accidental, frankly, if I was in charge of the IDF, I'd stop caring too. I'd be thinking "hell, the world is going to condemn me no matter what I do, so there's no point in taking more risks for my soldiers for no reason."

You can't "try to care", you either care or you don't. And only an idiot would say either side has ever cared for civilians.
I don't think for a second that if they tables were turned and Palestine had it's head up the USA's arse instead of Israel that the Palestinians wouldn't be acting in the same savage manner as the Israelis are doing.
But that still doesn't change the fact that what the Israelians are doing is barbaric, plain and simple.

Of course I realize that many of you are yanks whose IQ's are rivaled by lettuce so I won't get offended if you call me anti-semetic communist nazi for thinking that lives are worth something.
In fact, don't bother, go hug a stem cell instead.

Well, considering that "the UN" is simply the representatives of the world's population (although many aren't properly elected, officially they're still representing them)...the bias seems to be merely that Israel is just not very good with foreign policy.

It never really was, if you think about it. They never had very good PR-people, and they never managed to integrate themselves properly in the concert of nations - and that left a bunch of poor Arab countries with nothing to offer free to get world opinion on their side.

Shouldn’t they be? I mean, if the UN’s main goal is the assurance of peace worldwide, would they not be biased against one of the world’s biggest obstacles to that end?

I have to go now but when a suicide bomber blows up 271 sleeping men with 1200 pounds of TNT it is terrorism.
How do you figure? Care to explain the difference between this event and the precision-guided bombing of the house of a sleeping al-Zarqawi, for example?

Anti-Semmites are everywhere. Thier hatred surpasses any logic, reason, or rhyme..

Consider this; Isral is smaller then some of our states, it's tiny compared to the rest of the middle-east and yet they persist to fight it, calling it thier land, why can't they just let The Jews live in peace on thier little landheap?

Cause they're hatmongerers.. I completely sympathise for Isral, look at who dislikes The Jews.

The Nazis.
The Klan.
The Taliban.
Liberals.

Nice people liberals are asscosiated with huh?

Even if Isral was gone it would not end thier hatred, The middle-east would still be assholes who shit all over our countries and ways of life.

It's rascism, pure and simple. We worry about preadjudice here in the United States meanwhile a Jew can't leave his house without risking being shot..
Yay! It's SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS MAN! TO THE... uh... befuddling up of the debate? YAY! Darn you hate-mongering liberals! :rolleyes:

The UN as good as it's intentions, is a useless body.

It dosnt and cant do anything. the UN also most of the time favors the richer countries and ignores poorer ones bit hippocritical since thats why it was put together to give EVERY nation a voice.

The Security Council is a bit of a joke since it's dominated by the US.

The UN is doing very little in most conflicts. there expecting Israel to call a ceasefire when there at war with TERRORIST which lebanon is supporting.

Infact the UN for the last 10 to 15 years hasnt done much at all to keep the world at peace sometimes they make matter worse. look at Iraq all they said is that they condone what america did then we dont hear from them again BUT Israel gets involved in a war which they have every right to fight and there the bad guys. how does this work?

The UN made Israel. One can certainly understand the UN's disappointment.

Israel was more put together by the British Empire. the UN just supported it.

...TERRORIST which lebanon is supporting...
You fail. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=492831)

Lebanon =/= Syria =/= Iran

*Ge-schnippenstadheimlich* (- I mean, *snip*)

look at Iraq all they said is that they condone what america did then we dont hear from them again BUT Israel gets involved in a war which they have every right to fight and there the bad guys. how does this work?
Because the Israeli response is out of all proportion to the circumstances.

And it's not just the one side that is the "bad guys" here. You shouldn't think of things as black or white.

The UN is not biased against Israel. That country indirectly has veto power on the Security Council. Very few other countries have that.


Also if I remember correctly Jesus is suppose to ressurect again from Nazzarath or some crap like that. I don't know, I'm not Christian. But what I do know is no real Christian would be an anti-semmite. Just as no real Christian would be pro-choice. It go's with the package..
No real Christian hates Jews, or hates anyone for that matter. No real Christian would support capitalism, non-defensive wars or the death penalty as the neo-Pharisees in America have always done over the past 60 years.

It is not a basic part of Christianity to hate Jews. I am a devout Christian and nobody at my church including my priest has anything but praise for Israel.
You're not a member of Christian church. You're probably a member of a far-right political lobby group masquerading a religious organisation.

It makes me sick to think that there are Catholic churches like this that have been hijacked by Republican politics.

When a bomb created by a non-military force explodes outside a barracks when 271 marines are inside and they all die...it is terrorism. Disgusting barbarism too.
They were combatants. Terrorism targets civilians.

Oh brother! Hezbollah doesn't care what it hits whereas Israel does go to great pains to avoid civilian casualties.
Either that's not true or the IDF is incredibly incompetent. 61 Lebanese were killed on Wednesday, only 1 was a combatant.

Civilian casualties occur in war when you search out an enemy. And how is it that you know that the 300 were all innocent hmmm? You think Israeli intelligence is that bad? heh, doubt it. Hezbollah attacks the unarmed alone and only exists to kill civilians. Hezbollah killed 270 somthing unarmed American soldiers who were asleep in their barracks back in the 80's. They have a decades long history of vile acts. Israel is trying to destroy them and will succeed. The world will be better. And you are worried about a tactical move involving an airport? Ever hear of TWA flight 847?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/TWA_847_Hijackers_with_captain.jpg
So killing a bunch of soldiers that are sleeping in a wartorn country is bad. What do you consider the killing of soldiers preoccupied with celebrating Christmas, hm?

Either that's not true or the IDF is incredibly incompetent. 61 Lebanese were killed on Wednesday, only 1 was a combatant.
Who are they kidding, it's obviously collective punishment.

Fair enough. PM just came across as saying they're legit because they were American.

If thats what you read, then meh.

Everyone else took it they correct way. Attacking soldiers =/= terrorism be they American, French, Brazilian or Indian ...

Anti-Semmites are everywhere. Thier hatred surpasses any logic, reason, or rhyme..

Consider this; Isral is smaller then some of our states, it's tiny compared to the rest of the middle-east and yet they persist to fight it, calling it thier land, why can't they just let The Jews live in peace on thier little landheap?

Cause they're hatmongerers.. I completely sympathise for Isral, look at who dislikes The Jews.

The Nazis.
The Klan.
The Taliban.
Liberals.

Nice people liberals are asscosiated with huh?

Even if Isral was gone it would not end thier hatred, The middle-east would still be assholes who shit all over our countries and ways of life.

It's rascism, pure and simple. We worry about preadjudice here in the United States meanwhile a Jew can't leave his house without risking being shot..

Gotta hate those hatmongerers. If they had their way we'd all be wearing Fez.

Of course there's an Anti-UN bias. Why do you think the US vetos many Resolutions against Israel? :rolleyes:

Because its an ally, for the moment. As was Suharto, Pinochet and Marcos.


The UN has a revolting bias against Israel. Could you imagine if any other nation had hundreds of rockets fired into it as its military members were taken hostage by a terrorist organization?

I can, and it wouldnt involve retaliation by going down an assasination list.

the big mistake that many people make at the UN and elsewhere is to put nations like America or Israel who act to defend themselves

How is building civillian colonies outside your borders defending yourself?


We treat our prisoners to good food and geneva rights instead of beheading them.

Israel does not apply the Geneva convention to the occupied territories.

It really makes me wonder why we keep giving money to a hapless, spy filled, impotent body like the U.N

Wasn't there a British whistle blower who leaked American bugging of Annans office?

The UN as good as it's intentions, is a useless body.

The UN is only as useful as its members obey its decisions and act as the UN decides. The General Assembly has made resolutions calling Israel to stop building colonies, but they still do it. That's no fault of the UN. Whiole it has its flaws, its decisions are reflective of the decions made by both my and your governments, and those of the rest of the world, not by itself.

It dosnt and cant do anything. the UN also most of the time favors the richer countries and ignores poorer ones bit hippocritical since thats why it was put together to give EVERY nation a voice.

Every nation does have a voice in the General Assembly. However, I agree that there is a huge imbalance in the Security Council.

The Security Council is a bit of a joke since it's dominated by the US.

It has no more of a voice than the UK, China, Russia and France.

The UN is doing very little in most conflicts. there expecting Israel to call a ceasefire when there at war with TERRORIST which lebanon is supporting.

Everybody bar the UK, US and Israel is calling for a ceasefire. Everybody. And putting 'terrorist' in capital letters doesn't make a difference. In any case, they've killed 8 terrorists and 355 civilians. A little room for diplomacy could stop that figure getting much higher.

Infact the UN for the last 10 to 15 years hasnt done much at all to keep the world at peace sometimes they make matter worse. look at Iraq all they said is that they condone what america did then we dont hear from them again BUT Israel gets involved in a war which they have every right to fight and there the bad guys. how does this work?

The UN never condoned Iraq. Just like it doesn't condone an invasion of Lebanon either. It may not have been perfect at keeping the peace, but criticise world governments that failed to use their vote/veto properly.

It's more than that. The UN have simply realized that they have allowed statehood to an evil religious group and that this is an error that needs correction.

'Evil Religious Group' is every bit as harsh and stereotypical as saying the same thing against Islam.

They're fundamentalists. Just like any other group of fundamentalists, they are entitled to their views, but only insofar as they stay out of political control. Nothing good comes of religions with military assets. :p

Shouldn’t they be? I mean, if the UN’s main goal is the assurance of peace worldwide, would they not be biased against one of the world’s biggest obstacles to that end?

Does it stand to reason then that they would do something about all the terror organizations who are blocking the peace process? I mean everytime Israel makes concessions to FURTHER PEACE, they get attacked and thus, they retaliate.

Does it stand to reason then that they would do something about all the terror organizations who are blocking the peace process? I mean everytime Israel makes concessions to FURTHER PEACE, they get attacked and thus, they retaliate.

So, Israel is attacked by Hezbullah, and is thus allowed to in its rage use Lebanon as a punchbag. I see.

So, Israel is attacked by Hezbullah, and is thus allowed to in its rage use Lebanon as a punchbag. I see.

Considering the target list that we know about, most of the targets were hezbollah targets and the other part of the target list is to deny them using transportation to get additional weapons.

Does it stand to reason then that they would do something about all the terror organizations who are blocking the peace process? I mean everytime Israel makes concessions to FURTHER PEACE, they get attacked and thus, they retaliate.

If one looks at the timeline, you can see that the superpower crippling on the UN, and in particular the US use of the veto with regard to protecting Israel from sanctions, led to the situation which has created Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and Hamas.

Anti-Semmites are everywhere. Thier hatred surpasses any logic, reason, or rhyme..

Consider this; Isral is smaller then some of our states, it's tiny compared to the rest of the middle-east and yet they persist to fight it, calling it thier land, why can't they just let The Jews live in peace on thier little landheap?

Cause they're hatmongerers.. I completely sympathise for Isral, look at who dislikes The Jews.

The UN.
The Nazis.
The Klan.
The Taliban.
Liberals.

Nice people liberals are asscosiated with huh?

Even if Isral was gone it would not end thier hatred, The middle-east would still be assholes who shit all over our countries and ways of life.

It's rascism, pure and simple. We worry about preadjudice here in the United States ...I do not worry about "preadjudice".. I am more worried about people like you.

You need help.

If one looks at the timeline, you can see that the superpower crippling on the UN, and in particular the US use of the veto with regard to protecting Israel from sanctions, led to the situation which has created Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and Hamas.

Time for another call of bullshit.

Time for another call of bullshit.

Another non-answer.

Ahem, ahem (clic on the thumbnail):

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1695/israelestsolowy0.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=israelestsolowy0.jpg)

Ahem, ahem (clic on the thumbnail):

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1695/israelestsolowy0.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=israelestsolowy0.jpg)

US does too, just not an immediate one. Thanks though.

US does too, just not an immediate one. Thanks though.
And what does that even mean?

And what does that even mean?

In other words, Israel keeps it up for awhile then go for a cease-fire when Hezbollah is in a weakened state. It wasn't that hard to figure out.

In other words, Israel keeps it up for awhile then go for a cease-fire when Hezbollah is in a weakened state. It wasn't that hard to figure out.
The humanitarian crisis is happening now, several thousand people are in direct danger, some are isolated and under constant shelling, 600.000 are displaced internally in Lebanon, the Israeli attacks are diproportionate, the lebanese infrastructure and economy is already in ruins, and Hezbollah doesn't appear very weakened.

So again, what the hell does a "ceasefire, just not right now" mean? It means: No ceasefire. Not at all interested. Israel's hands are free, the US is sending more weapons and ammunition, and expects it to be over before they have to do anything.

It wasn't that hard to figure out, you were right about that.

The humanitarian crisis is happening now, several thousand people are in direct danger, some are isolated and under constant shelling, 600.000 are displaced internally in Lebanon, the Israeli attacks are diproportionate, the lebanese infrastructure and economy is already in ruins, and Hezbollah doesn't appear very weakened.

So again, what the hell does a "ceasefire, just not right now" mean? It means: No ceasefire. Not at all interested. Israel's hands are free, the US is sending more weapons and ammunition, and expects it to be over before they have to do anything.

It wasn't that hard to figure out, you were right about that.

Sickening.

White Lion said:

He could barely remember
When the fighting began
It was early September
When he lost his old man
Soon the time came to leave there
And to start a new life
How it seems so unfair
When they gave him a gun and a knife
So he fights with a gun in his hand
For what reason he can't understand
Fights with a gun in his hand
For the freedom of the land

Chorus:
Can you hear the crying out
All the people in El Salvador
Can you hear a distant shout
From the people in El Salvador
cross your heart and hope to die
For the people in El Salvador
Still they kill not knowing why
All the people in El Salvador

As he stares at the ceiling
He thinks back quite away
It was him that was feeling
tellin' you those were the days
As he stares at a white dove
Tears fall down on his face
An then once filled with love that only God his self can replace

Can you hear them cry?
Can you see them die?
Can you tell me why? Oh no
See them die, hear them cry, tell me why

Hello again Coneliu, peaceful relations this time.

H5ck4 People like you scare me and make me despair the species. Now to shed some light on your propositions.
You suggest that the UN is tied to nazism... Well considering the UN was founded after the defeat of Germany I see a few logical fallacies here. The nazis were fascist puritans who until they started their warmongering were actually supported by the US, among others. The Nazis may have called themselves a socialist party, but they were in fact a far right wing government with dispicable ideas. To compare anyone to them is perverse and wrong.
The KKK is a good ol' Pure American group. In fact, they consider themselves to be devout Christians following the word of God and I wouldn't be suprised if most were republicans. (I'm not saying all republicans are Klansmen, or that half of them even support the KKK. Just that their way of thinking tends to be right leaning from what I've seen).
Next up, the Taliban, The UN assuredly looked down on them (though the UN is mostly useless these days, since people can pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it) but did nothing. That the Taliban and even Al-queda had US support is true, but to blame socially minded Americans for conspiring with them is just addle-minded. If I wanted to stay in that zone of thinking, I could link the republicans have ties to every major despotic government in the world. (in truth, it' not all of them, just a few. Sorry I'm a cynic)

Oh and Corneliu, I agree with your proposition on linking the defiance of the UN to Current tensions in the middle east. The proposition sounds ludicrous at best. Tension is present (in my opinion) due to longstanding religious intolerance coupled with mounting grudges.

Crazy people dream their dreams. Normal people die for them.

And they die on BOTH sides of the line. There are a good number of jews who dream of a second holocaust too. This time one where the Jews are sending arabs to the 'showerblocks'.

Never Again, unless it's those damn dirty brownskinned Muslims. Then it's Again and Again and Again and Again...

Ahem, ahem (clic on the thumbnail):

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1695/israelestsolowy0.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=israelestsolowy0.jpg)
It's incorrect. Sadly, my other government isn't putting pressure on Israel for an immediate cease fire either. (Must have been that back rub...)

It's incorrect. Sadly, my other government isn't putting pressure on Israel for an immediate cease fire either. (Must have been that back rub...)
Mine isn't either, Can't say why exactly, but the conservative minority is very much more right wing than most people view Canada.

Gotta hate those hatmongerers. If they had their way we'd all be wearing Fez.

Yeah, it's no secret that The Shriners are an Al Qaeda cell.

:rolleyes:

Never Again, unless it's those damn dirty brownskinned Muslims. Then it's Again and Again and Again and Again...

*cough* *hack* *wheeze*

*blink blink*

Wow, way to promote tolerance and understanding there. I'll just leave it at that.

*cough* *hack* *wheeze*

*blink blink*

Wow, way to promote tolerance and understanding there. I'll just leave it at that.

Sometimes the best way to promote tolerance and understanding is to wedge it into people with shocking statements. Of course with some people who pray to God for Muslim Extinction every day like Deep Kimchi, a line like that is their actual wet dream.

Sometimes the best way to promote tolerance and understanding is to wedge it into people with shocking statements. Of course with some people who pray to God for Muslim Extinction every day like Deep Kimchi, a line like that is their actual wet dream.

So I'm assuming it wasn't your heartfelt sentiment on the matter. I was sort of hoping it was along those lines, but you never know on these Forums.

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9215/antisemitasna2yu6.th.jpg (http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=antisemitasna2yu6.jpg)

-AYYYYY! AYYYYY!

-Look those anti-Semites complaining again!

====

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/9738/stopcollaborationisraelke1.th.jpg (http://img54.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stopcollaborationisraelke1.jpg)

"That's my opinion, but I state it only in my lawful use of my freedom of speech without any intention of infrincting any law and without the mood of making any assert."

So I'm assuming it wasn't your heartfelt sentiment on the matter. I was sort of hoping it was along those lines, but you never know on these Forums.

Usually you can tell when someone really means it. Blind unquestioning support for the Bush Administration and Israel usually goes hand in hand with a Muslim Extinction Fetish.

Oh brother! Hezbollah doesn't care what it hits whereas Israel does go to great pains to avoid civilian casualties.
Okay, that's just plain incorrect.

You can't launch ANYthing through the air and honestly believe your "great pains" are anything more than insincere prayers. "Collateral damage" is just the words attackers use to make themselves feel better about killing civilians. You can't have "great pains" to avoid civilian deaths when using bombs, missiles or artillery.

Of course Israel (please learn to spell it, H4ck5) has the right to defend itself, but the Israeli response is entirely out of proportion.

Hezbollah already had what it was bitching for when Israel pulled out of southern Lebanon about five years ago -- why did they provoke Israel further if not to exacerbate the situation?

Neither side is "right" or even necessarily "good". When children are killed or orphaned, the intention of the killer is utterly irrelevant.

Hezbollah are certainly terrorist, but that's not all they are. Many in Lebanon oppose them for their violence, but just as many, if not more, praise them for their work within Lebanese communities building schools and hospitals and generally providing for people.

NOW, before you leap on the "ZOMG HES TEH TERRORZISTZ LOVER!!!1111one!!1" bandwagon, I also know that you don't win the kind of approval that excuses violence UNLESS you win hearts and minds. Al-Qaeda does the same thing. Starving or helpless folks who get assistance aren't very likely to concern themselves with the outward motives of those providing food for their children.

Shouldn’t they be? I mean, if the UN’s main goal is the assurance of peace worldwide, would they not be biased against one of the world’s biggest obstacles to that end?



Sure I can see how being such a small target that the Arab world can't yet wipe off the face of the earth....and have tried.... would frost the UN's balls...that and israel being the target of all those terrorist groups...And all those Israeli's Just sitting there all alive and everything...that must be a huge provocation that simply draws the peace right out of people and replaces it with seemingly irratioal hate molecules...So I can see how Israel..can be thought of as an obstacle to peace.

They just refuse to die.:rolleyes:

Of course I realize that many of you are yanks whose IQ's are rivaled by lettuce so I won't get offended if you call me anti-semetic communist nazi for thinking that lives are worth something.
In fact, don't bother, go hug a stem cell instead.
Oh, piss off and spread your generalizations elsewhere. Not every American has the IQ of lettuce. You're thinking of the administration.

Unlike you, I'm not going to judge your nation's ENTIRE POPULATION based on your stupid comments.

*snip*
The Security Council is a bit of a joke since it's dominated by the US.
*snip*

:rolleyes:
So US domination of the Security Council explains all of that vetoing that Russia and China keep doing.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Usually you can tell when someone really means it. Blind unquestioning support for the Bush Administration and Israel usually goes hand in hand with a Muslim Extinction Fetish.
Indeed, I apologize for the allegations I placed, as they were based on a single statement without knowing your character or having read any previous statements by you. (Course, you can hardly blame me can you.)

Oh and Kudos to you Intangelon, a well written rant that deserves applause.

So I'm assuming it wasn't your heartfelt sentiment on the matter. I was sort of hoping it was along those lines, but you never know on these Forums.
Well.. the only person I've ever seen post blind hatred for anyone of a darker skin hue was Gauthier. Doesn't matter what the thread is, Gauthier is spouting some crap along these lines.

Oh, piss off and spread your generalizations elsewhere. Not every American has the IQ of lettuce. You're thinking of the administration.

Unlike you, I'm not going to judge your nation's ENTIRE POPULATION based on your stupid comments.


some actually can even spell I Q and have the intellect of a radish .

unlike in all the other , much superior countries around the world , that must bow down before the mighty stupid lettuce heads of the US :D


Whats in your wallet ?:D


watch out for that laser guided bomb:eek:

Well.. the only person I've ever seen post blind hatred for anyone of a darker skin hue was Gauthier. Doesn't matter what the thread is, Gauthier is spouting some crap along these lines.
What he actually believes we may never know, unless he sits down and actually tells us. From what he has recently said I would doubt his senserity. I'm however fairly easily swayed at times so yeah, not the best judge of character.

Well.. the only person I've ever seen post blind hatred for anyone of a darker skin hue was Gauthier. Doesn't matter what the thread is, Gauthier is spouting some crap along these lines.

Busheviks like you can't recognize sarcasm or irony without a bold designator either. And I suppose Deep Kimchi's "Let's Sterilize the Muslims" rant was me again right?

:rolleyes:

Busheviks like you can't recognize sarcasm or irony without a bold designator either. And I suppose Deep Kimchi's "Let's Sterilize the Muslims" rant was me again right?

:rolleyes:

It might be another account :D

It might be another account :D

I don't do puppets. Ever.

Busheviks like you can't recognize sarcasm or irony without a bold designator either. And I suppose Deep Kimchi's "Let's Sterilize the Muslims" rant was me again right?

:rolleyes:



Ohhhhhhhhhhh Yes...break out the Bushevics tag !


Sterile Muslims ? poor some clorox over them . bleach kills all germs .

happy ? No rant either ...although the sterilization must be voluntary , otherwise it would violate the rights of the germs ....:rolleyes:


oooooooops..non pc statement....:p

I don't do puppets. Ever.

I'll take your word for it. ;)

*El Snip*
Oh and Corneliu, I agree with your proposition on linking the defiance of the UN to Current tensions in the middle east. The proposition sounds ludicrous at best. Tension is present (in my opinion) due to longstanding religious intolerance coupled with mounting grudges.
If that last were true, then why would any terrorist attack any US target? Weapons support, training, intelligence and UN vetos add up to, at the very least, the appearance of US complicity in Israeli attacks, especially the disproportionate ones.

If my nation were under attack for whatever reason, and I was crazy enough to get all jihadi about it, it wouldn't be much of a leap to want to do SOMETHING about all the support my attacker was receiving from a superpower.

AGAIN -- this does NOT mean I support Hezbollah (I feel the need to put that in every time I make a point that dares to impugn either Israel or the US, lest I be labelled a terrorist sympathizer).

Busheviks like you can't recognize sarcasm or irony without a bold designator either. And I suppose Deep Kimchi's "Let's Sterilize the Muslims" rant was me again right?

:rolleyes:
I'm quite aware that you are being sarcastic whenever you mention "dirty brown skinned" etc.

What I'm questioning is why you must always bring up race and racial hatred?

And I question why you are implying that I have any ill will towards muslims? All I did was point out that you are constantly making comments about racial hatred.

me thinks you are projecting.

some actually can even spell I Q and have the intellect of a radish .

unlike in all the other , much superior countries around the world , that must bow down before the mighty stupid lettuce heads of the US :D


Whats in your wallet ?:D


watch out for that laser guided bomb:eek:
Uh...I'd ask what your point was, but I'm fairly certain that you don't know either.

If you're commenting on my use of the US Postal Service's abbreviation convention (IQ instead of I.Q. -- by the way, where were your periods, if you're going to be that anal?), it's an abbreviation and there are many ways to delineate them. I think using periods is a bit of a waste, but that's me.

Quoting a Capital One commercial? Any particular reason, or did you just get back from Costco with your pallet of Nutjob?

And the fallacy of laser-guided ANYthing being able to spare civilian casualties was precisely my point in a few earlier posts.

Sir, you've successed in confusing me. Congratulations. While it's not particularly difficult, it is uncommon.

If that last were true, then why would any terrorist attack any US target? Weapons support, training, intelligence and UN vetos add up to, at the very least, the appearance of US complicity in Israeli attacks, especially the disproportionate ones.

If my nation were under attack for whatever reason, and I was crazy enough to get all jihadi about it, it wouldn't be much of a leap to want to do SOMETHING about all the support my attacker was receiving from a superpower.

AGAIN -- this does NOT mean I support Hezbollah (I feel the need to put that in every time I make a point that dares to impugn either Israel or the US, lest I be labelled a terrorist sympathizer).

I know what you mean, I've been labelled that a few times now. I agree that the connection between Israel and the US is undeniable, but I don't believe their actions in the UN is the fundemental problem. I think the direct aid the US offers Israel is viewed as more important than the actions taken place in the UN. However, I'm just a lowly history and philosophy student. So I've missed out on some of the happenings that can be important for all this. Most of my views are backed by personal understanding gathered from others rather than hard facts, which often leads me towards some fairly wild statements.

Oh and Kudos to you Intangelon, a well written rant that deserves applause.
Very kind -- many thanks.

I get tired of the black-n-whiters sometimes, even though I understand their motives.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh Yes...break out the Bushevics tag !


Sterile Muslims ? poor some clorox over them . bleach kills all germs .

happy ? No rant either ...although the sterilization must be voluntary , otherwise it would violate the rights of the germs ....:rolleyes:


oooooooops..non pc statement....:p
Ohhhhhhkayyy.

Back away from the bong and put down the pizza. It's time for you to go listen to some Floyd and mellow.

If that last were true, then why would any terrorist attack any US target? Weapons support, training, intelligence and UN vetos add up to, at the very least, the appearance of US complicity in Israeli attacks, especially the disproportionate ones.

If my nation were under attack for whatever reason, and I was crazy enough to get all jihadi about it, it wouldn't be much of a leap to want to do SOMETHING about all the support my attacker was receiving from a superpower.

AGAIN -- this does NOT mean I support Hezbollah (I feel the need to put that in every time I make a point that dares to impugn either Israel or the US, lest I be labelled a terrorist sympathizer).


Well only if you ignore the fact that the terrorist organizations wish to limit or destroy the ability of western nations to influence their culture ..(:rolleyes: )... and desire taliban style theococy in the entire muslim world along with the total destruction of the Jews...Hitler didnt do a good enough job...along with the esablishment of islam as the worlds dominant and supreme power..as God has commanded or whatever other bullshit ranting and raving by these crazy fucks......Why do you care anyway why they want to kill you ? aside from the fact they do ....they have a fucking list ..a long one ..in a little over two hundred years we pissed off a bunch of fucktards..


cant please everyone .


They have been trying to wipe the Jews out since time began it seems ...look at how tiny Israel is.....they have not been able to yet .

that should be a good thing ...dontcha think ?

Ohhhhhhkayyy.

Back away from the bong and put down the pizza. It's time for you to go listen to some Floyd and mellow.



I cant find the bong...have to use a regular pipe. I'm spoiled...and the pizza dude ripped us off ....charged 2.50 for EACH topping...fucking 23.00 pizza...I was like were's the other one...

how the hell did you know about the pizza...???


fucking patriot act man....its getting creepy.....:p

I know what you mean, I've been labelled that a few times now. I agree that the connection between Israel and the US is undeniable, but I don't believe their actions in the UN is the fundemental problem. I think the direct aid the US offers Israel is viewed as more important than the actions taken place in the UN. However, I'm just a lowly history and philosophy student. So I've missed out on some of the happenings that can be important for all this. Most of my views are backed by personal understanding gathered from others rather than hard facts, which often leads me towards some fairly wild statements.
Well, I can't back this up with links yet, but there are a breed of Christian Chiliasts whose religious leaders (pastors/reverends/whatever) are actually praying for the violence to continue and for Israel to keep going. Despite the position taken by the Bible that says NOBODY will know the time of the second coming, these people are hoping to hasten it and are reveling in the possibility of Revelation prophecy coming true.

It doesn't get much wilder than that.

Well only if you ignore the fact that the terrorist organizations wish to limit or destroy the ability of western nations to influence their culture ..(:rolleyes: )... and desire taliban style theococy in the entire muslim world along with the total destruction of the Jews...Hitler didnt do a good enough job...along with the esablishment of islam as the worlds dominant and supreme power..as God has commanded or whatever other bullshit ranting and raving by these crazy fucks......Why do you care anyway why they want to kill you ? aside from the fact they do ....they have a fucking list ..a long one ..in a little over two hundred years we pissed off a bunch of fucktards..


cant please everyone .


They have been trying to wipe the Jews out since time began it seems ...look at how tiny Israel is.....they have not been able to yet .

that should be a good thing ...dontcha think ?
I'd give good money for a translation here.

Uh...I'd ask what your point was, but I'm fairly certain that you don't know either.

If you're commenting on my use of the US Postal Service's abbreviation convention (IQ instead of I.Q. -- by the way, where were your periods, if you're going to be that anal?), it's an abbreviation and there are many ways to delineate them. I think using periods is a bit of a waste, but that's me.

Quoting a Capital One commercial? Any particular reason, or did you just get back from Costco with your pallet of Nutjob?

And the fallacy of laser-guided ANYthing being able to spare civilian casualties was precisely my point in a few earlier posts.

Sir, you've successed in confusing me. Congratulations. While it's not particularly difficult, it is uncommon.


This thread much like the situation in the Middle East has degenerated greatly...my post attempt to refflect that ....pointless rants ...name calling...inuendo...personal attacks....

all it needs is a suicide attack and it can be a real microcosmic imatation of the real events it attempts to discuss .


sell me a dictionary I promise not to use it .:D


And BTW ..laser guided munitions do spare civillians...compared to other not as precise methods or area bombing...but only if you DO NOT DROP THEM ON THE CIVILLIANS ..since hezbollah is like in the basement of an apartment building ..when the bomb hits ...poor Joe Shiskebob in Apt. 3 b is blown off his shitter . WTF did he do ..besides use poor judgement and not move when his neighbors " moved in ' .:p

Well, I can't back this up with links yet, but there are a breed of Christian Chiliasts whose religious leaders (pastors/reverends/whatever) are actually praying for the violence to continue and for Israel to keep going. Despite the position taken by the Bible that says NOBODY will know the time of the second coming, these people are hoping to hasten it and are reveling in the possibility of Revelation prophecy coming true.

It doesn't get much wilder than that.

I've heard that too actually, I think I saw a link on some other page discussing the whole Israel Lebannon thing. Couldn't tell you the name of the thread though. I think any fundementalist is dangerous because of the incredible potential for hate they seem to have. (except buddhist fundementalists, they just seem to set themselves on fire...)

I'd give good money for a translation here.


save your money its free .



Observer Worldview Extra

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'

Online document: the full text of Osama bin Laden's "letter to the American people", reported in today's Observer. The letter first appeared on the internet in Arabic and has since been translated and circulated by Islamists in Britain.

Observer Worldview

Sunday November 24, 2002


In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect:

"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?







thats what Al-Queda wants from the US ...in Bin Ladens words .

All translated for you so you can bow down and grovel before them .

This thread much like the situation in the Middle East has degenerated greatly...my post attempt to refflect that ....pointless rants ...name calling...inuendo...personal attacks....

all it needs is a suicide attack and it can be a real microcosmic imatation of the real events it attempts to discuss .


sell me a dictionary I promise not to use it .:D


And BTW ..laser guided munitions do spare civillians...compared to other not as precise methods or area bombing...but only if you DO NOT DROP THEM ON THE CIVILLIANS ..since hezbollah is like in the basement of an apartment building ..when the bomb hits ...poor Joe Shiskebob in Apt. 3 b is blown off his shitter . WTF did he do ..besides use poor judgement and not move when his neighbors " moved in ' .:p
See now, I KNOW you're using words in English -- I recognize them. Perhaps if you strung them together in sentences that had some kind of sense or order to them, I might be able to better understand you.

I've heard that too actually, I think I saw a link on some other page discussing the whole Israel Lebannon thing. Couldn't tell you the name of the thread though. I think any fundementalist is dangerous because of the incredible potential for hate they seem to have. (except buddhist fundementalists, they just seem to set themselves on fire...)
Yeah. Ideologically-committed Buddhist fundamentalists knew how to stage a f**kin' PROTEST, didn't they?

Come on, you Christian Crusaders, let's see some SMOKE to match that fire in your belly!

See now, I KNOW you're using words in English -- I recognize them. Perhaps if you strung them together in sentences that had some kind of sense or order to them, I might be able to better understand you.


its really good pot .

Yeah. Ideologically-committed Buddhist fundamentalists knew how to stage a f**kin' PROTEST, didn't they?

Come on, you Christian Crusaders, let's see some SMOKE to match that fire in your belly!

Ah Georges Carlin how we love you.

save your money its free .



thats what Al-Queda wants from the US ...in Bin Ladens words .

All translated for you so you can bow down and grovel before them .
Yeah.

'Cause that's what I said. :rolleyes:

Thing is, ol' Osama has a couple of good points (usury and hypocrisy for example). He needs to lay off the world conquest stuff, though. That's OUR job.

Ah Georges Carlin how we love you.
Yup. I'd start a religion based on his teachings if I didn't think he'd bitch-slap me for it.

Well.. the only person I've ever seen post blind hatred for anyone of a darker skin hue was Gauthier. Doesn't matter what the thread is, Gauthier is spouting some crap along these lines.its called sarcasm.

Yeah.

'Cause that's what I said. :rolleyes:

Thing is, ol' Osama has a couple of good points (usury and hypocrisy for example). He needs to lay off the world conquest stuff, though. That's OUR job.


He's cool with the hypocrisy stuff ...but usery ??? You must be kidding ! I like getting interest on my investments ..this is the US you know .

In fact we should kill him just for trying to interfere with our interest.


Bwaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha ...:p

pun intended .

Hello again Coneliu, peaceful relations this time.

Agreed. May Peace be with you.

Oh and Corneliu, I agree with your proposition on linking the defiance of the UN to Current tensions in the middle east. The proposition sounds ludicrous at best. Tension is present (in my opinion) due to longstanding religious intolerance coupled with mounting grudges.

To a point, I will agree with you. Most of it is religious in nature. Anyone with knowledge of the region hopefully won't dispute it. Couple religious intolerence with refusal to follow UN directives and you have one very bad situation on verge of full scale war.

Mine isn't either, Can't say why exactly, but the conservative minority is very much more right wing than most people view Canada.

I notice that most of NATO isn't putting much pressure for a cease-fire.

Okay, that's just plain incorrect.

You can't launch ANYthing through the air and honestly believe your "great pains" are anything more than insincere prayers. "Collateral damage" is just the words attackers use to make themselves feel better about killing civilians. You can't have "great pains" to avoid civilian deaths when using bombs, missiles or artillery.

I seem to recall that Israel uses precision guided munitions and not dumb bombs. Sometimes these do go off course. Also, depending on the building targeted and how it explodes, will inevitebly lead to civilian casualties. Any military expert will tell you that one. Show me a war that didn't have civilian casualties, intentionally or otherwise and I will call you out.

Of course Israel (please learn to spell it, H4ck5) has the right to defend itself, but the Israeli response is entirely out of proportion.

To some yes, to others no. It is a matter of opinion. I'll just leave it at that.

Hezbollah already had what it was bitching for when Israel pulled out of southern Lebanon about five years ago -- why did they provoke Israel further if not to exacerbate the situation?

Because Hezbollah wants Israel destroyed just as Hamas, Al Aqsa Martyers Brigade, Al Qaeda, and Islamic Jihad do. It is no secret.

Neither side is "right" or even necessarily "good". When children are killed or orphaned, the intention of the killer is utterly irrelevant.

Here I will agree.

Hezbollah are certainly terrorist, but that's not all they are. Many in Lebanon oppose them for their violence, but just as many, if not more, praise them for their work within Lebanese communities building schools and hospitals and generally providing for people.

Something else I praise but they associate themselves with these terrorists. Is there 2 factions of Hezbollah? Yes there are but the ones that help with the schools and within the community do not disassociate themselves with their militant faction.

NOW, before you leap on the "ZOMG HES TEH TERRORZISTZ LOVER!!!1111one!!1" bandwagon, I also know that you don't win the kind of approval that excuses violence UNLESS you win hearts and minds. Al-Qaeda does the same thing. Starving or helpless folks who get assistance aren't very likely to concern themselves with the outward motives of those providing food for their children.

Something else that we do agree on.

If that last were true, then why would any terrorist attack any US target? Weapons support, training, intelligence and UN vetos add up to, at the very least, the appearance of US complicity in Israeli attacks, especially the disproportionate ones.

Complicity? Do we support them? Yes we do but that is what allies do. They support there allies when they believe that they are right. Maybe you have trouble with that concept. Israel is defending themselves. No matter how you want to spin it, that is precisely what they are doing. Should there be a cease-fire? Sure but not unless Lebonan complies with 1559 and moves to disarm Hezbollah as it is directed to do.

Well, I can't back this up with links yet, but there are a breed of Christian Chiliasts whose religious leaders (pastors/reverends/whatever) are actually praying for the violence to continue and for Israel to keep going. Despite the position taken by the Bible that says NOBODY will know the time of the second coming, these people are hoping to hasten it and are reveling in the possibility of Revelation prophecy coming true.

It doesn't get much wilder than that.

That is pretty wild. I do think we are nearing the end of time but even I am not that crazy to want the violence to continue.

Sure but not unless Lebonan complies with 1559 and moves to disarm Hezbollah as it is directed to do.
You do of course understand it's impossible, right..? Hez would decimate Lebanese army for sure.

You can't let yourself be drivven by personal or patriotic feeling, just looking at the plain, undiscriminating numbers can give you an idea of "which side the UN should choose". These figures may be a few days old (source=nos), but they gove a nice glimps at the way things are evolving.

Hezbollah:
26 Isreali's killed, of which about 50% civilians; that"s 13 civilians murdered

Israel:
over 210 kills, almost all of them civilian; that's about 200 civilians murdered

don't you think modern day warfare and inforation survices allows for a more efficiënt way of dealing with your enemies? Who's the real terrorist? Who should the UN thrust?

You do of course understand it's impossible, right..? Hez would decimate Lebanese army for sure.

They had there chance to do something like oh ask for help in doing so? they didn't. They never made a single attempt to do so. I call it a failure on their part and everyone is calling for 1559 to be implemented. Even those who are calling for a cease-fire recognize that.

MacaronifromHell']You can't let yourself be drivven by personal or patriotic feeling, just looking at the plain, undiscriminating numbers can give you an idea of "which side the UN should choose". These figures may be a few days old (source=nos), but they gove a nice glimps at the way things are evolving.

Hezbollah:
26 Isreali's killed, of which about 50% civilians; that"s 13 civilians murdered

Israel:
over 210 kills, almost all of them civilian; that's about 200 civilians murdered

don't you think modern day warfare and inforation survices allows for a more efficiënt way of dealing with your enemies? Who's the real terrorist? Who should the UN thrust?

Psst!! You are dealing with terrorists. Its a whole different ballgame than taking on a national army. Who is the real terrorists? Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Aqsa Martyers Brigade, A Qaeda! Those are the real terrorists. Yes the numbers are vastly different because of a few reasons which I'm sure you are able to figure out yourself. That reason being as follows:

Hezbollah is using unguided rockets and therefor are not accurate though they do occassionaly find their target whereas Israel is hitting their targets with precision guided munitions in a densly populated city. Targets mind you that are in and among civilians. Thus they'll kill far greater number of civilians with precision guided munitions than Hezbollah who is using unguided and inaccurate rockets. If Hezbollah were using guided munitions as well...I will lay you odds right now that Israel would have a higher death toll than Lebanon.

Couple religious intolerence with refusal to follow UN directives and you have one very bad situation on verge of full scale war.
Why does Israel continue to refuse to follow UN directives?

They had there chance to do something like oh ask for help in doing so? they didn't. They never made a single attempt to do so. I call it a failure on their part and everyone is calling for 1559 to be implemented. Even those who are calling for a cease-fire recognize that.

So they should obey the law, but not Israel? I'd have two words for the eejit who tried to sell me that, and they wouldnt be "Yes, thanks."

Why does Israel continue to refuse to follow UN directives?

That I cannot answer. Probably for the same reason why they are attacking Gaza (though rumor has it that the militants agreed to stop firing) and Hezbollah's Lebanon. Security. That's the only reason I can think of but I am not a mid-east expert.

That I cannot answer. Probably for the same reason why they are attacking Gaza (though rumor has it that the militants agreed to stop firing) and Hezbollah's Lebanon. Security. That's the only reason I can think of but I am not a mid-east expert.


I think we worked out the end part of that ourselves. However we're talking about Israels failure to disband settlements, or implement the Geneva convention in the occupied territories (for instance).

That I cannot answer. Probably for the same reason why they are attacking Gaza (though rumor has it that the militants agreed to stop firing) and Hezbollah's Lebanon. Security. That's the only reason I can think of but I am not a mid-east expert.

U.S. Vetoes Security Council Resolution Condemning Israeli Operations in Gaza (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/veto071306.html)
(July 13, 2006)

I think that John Bolton's explanation of the veto is bogus.

Israel’s UN Ambassador Dan Gillerman talks about "fingers of the bloodstained hands", but looking at the extent of civilian carnage in Lebanon, I think he needs to take a good look in the mirror.

*snipo*

I do not care what Bolton said for I answered your question with my opinion which is what you asked for.

I ran across this article on the website http://volokh.com/

[David Kopel]

Thoughts, anyone? And please, keep it civil. Logical, well-reasoned thoughts, not insults and epithets.
Okay, how about supplying a credible link for this suspicious "conspiracy"?

Okay, how about supplying a credible link for this suspicious "conspiracy"?

He hasn't yet though he has been asked a couple of times :D

Oddly, the UN simply disapproves of conflict. Hence its perenial disapproval of Israel.

It may also be derived from the fact that, with the omission of Britain, the entirety of the UN despises the USA.

Oddly, the UN simply disapproves of conflict. Hence its perenial disapproval of Israel.

It may also be derived from the fact that, with the omission of Britain, the entirety of the UN despises the USA.

I might venture that the 'omission of the British Government' would be a bit more apt.

U.S. Vetoes Security Council Resolution Condemning Israeli Operations in Gaza (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/veto071306.html)
(July 13, 2006)

I think that John Bolton's explanation of the veto is bogus.

Israel’s UN Ambassador Dan Gillerman talks about "fingers of the bloodstained hands", but looking at the extent of civilian carnage in Lebanon, I think he needs to take a good look in the mirror.

He relies on the old 'doesnt sufficiently condemn the other side' line, which is rather amusing, considering that Israel has faced sanction over acts that are without parallel on the other side, and indeed an offence whether the other side actually existed or not (the settlements).

Why does Israel continue to refuse to follow UN directives?

Like what ? go commit mass suicide so we can party ? All the jews leave resolution number whatever ? resolution all Jews drop dead immediately ?



how about if the UN sends in a REAL peacekeeping force with the authority to not only defend itself but disarm any militia in the zone its in ?
make them selves usefull ...of course as soon as Israel does all the work and gets rid of Hezbollah for them..they can move in and actually serve a purpose besides wasting time .

So long as Israel causes enough war weariness, Hezbollah will end up facing the Lebenese population. I don't think a peace keeping force would actually work. I think it would turn into a situtation like us in Iraq. We're the peacekeeping force there, but it doesn't seem to be working all that effectively. So a peacekeeping force in Lebanon would just result in some warped gurella warfare against them.

I think what Israel is doing is the best effective way of breaking Hezbollah. Likewise, I think the hammer attack is the best way of winning a war. I think any sort of, 'Now be nice," would fail.

Like what ? go commit mass suicide so we can party ? All the jews leave resolution number whatever ? resolution all Jews drop dead immediately ?
.

As usual, frustration brings out the more negative elements of people. If you can't argue the facts.....

As usual, frustration brings out the more negative elements of people. If you can't argue the facts.....


common noddy give us a hug !

So long as Israel causes enough war weariness, Hezbollah will end up facing the Lebenese population. I don't think a peace keeping force would actually work. I think it would turn into a situtation like us in Iraq. We're the peacekeeping force there, but it doesn't seem to be working all that effectively. So a peacekeeping force in Lebanon would just result in some warped gurella warfare against them.

I think what Israel is doing is the best effective way of breaking Hezbollah. Likewise, I think the hammer attack is the best way of winning a war. I think any sort of, 'Now be nice," would fail.

They aren't breaking Hezbollah. After this, don't be surprised if Lebanon turns suddenly anti-Israeli and militant.

common noddy give us a hug !

Not even the steam, me oul flower...

So long as Israel causes enough war weariness, Hezbollah will end up facing the Lebenese population. I don't think a peace keeping force would actually work. I think it would turn into a situtation like us in Iraq. We're the peacekeeping force there, but it doesn't seem to be working all that effectively. So a peacekeeping force in Lebanon would just result in some warped gurella warfare against them.

I think what Israel is doing is the best effective way of breaking Hezbollah. Likewise, I think the hammer attack is the best way of winning a war. I think any sort of, 'Now be nice," would fail.
I think Israel is going about it the wrong way, and that their actions will drive the Lebanese away from Israel and towards the Hezbollah and Syria.

Oh, and the US as a peacekeeping force in Iraq is a horrible failure, due to lack of training and adaptability and the use of wrong tactics (not anti-insurgency tactics but a continuation of the invasion and occupation strategy) on the ground.

You can't "try to care", you either care or you don't. And only an idiot would say either side has ever cared for civilians.

What I was trying to say was that they probably did care at one point in time, it was just so freaking hard to care about civilian casualties as well as accomplish your objectives.

And I disagree with your second statement, considering Israel for a while has been attempting to, well, not hit civilians, while the terrorists deliberately target them. Again, Israel cared, in the beginning, and then stopped, because it wasn't doing them any good.

I don't think for a second that if they tables were turned and Palestine had it's head up the USA's arse instead of Israel that the Palestinians wouldn't be acting in the same savage manner as the Israelis are doing.

I do. If I recall correctly, the Israeli government was in fact looking towards at least peaceful coexistance in some form. The Palestinian position, as well as the majority of the rest of the Arab world, is "Israel doesn't deserve to exist." Considering the previous terrorist actions of Hamas, I'm gonna have to call BS.

But that still doesn't change the fact that what the Israelians are doing is barbaric, plain and simple.

Israel is not deliberately targeting civilians. Israel has moved troops across a foreign border and is in a de facto war with Lebanon, but these actions are not barbaric, unless you're so naive to the point where you think war in itself is an atrocity.

Of course I realize that many of you are yanks whose IQ's are rivaled by lettuce so I won't get offended if you call me anti-semetic communist nazi for thinking that lives are worth something.

If anything, your blatant subscription to false generalizations and stereotypes is in fact testemant to your own personal lack of intelligence. I think you are neither anti-semetic, a communist, or a nazi (as you couldn't be a member of the National Socialist German Worker's Party, as it no longer exists), or a commie-nazi (which is impossible). Contrary to your ignorant perceptions, some of us, like myself, actually do care about the lives of civilians. UNfortunately, they will die, and there isn't a whole lot anyone can do about it. Of course, you could say "Israel doesn't have to fight back," but that statement would mean either you're an idiot and completely ignorant of the conflict in the Middle East, or an anti-semite, as you know Israel would be destroyed if they didn't fight back. Since you proclaim you are not an anti-semite, you will not choose the latter option. Since you clearly have such an advanced intelligence, your obviously aware of every aspect of the Middle East Conflict, so it's not the former, either. THerefore, you understand Israel has to fight back.


And Gravlen, I agree. IIRC, the 22nd SAS should teach the American commandos a bit about counter-geurilla fighting. :)

Well considering the amount of Muslim nations compared to Israel, UK, and US...

Well considering the amount of Muslim nations compared to Israel, UK, and US...
I'm not getting your point.....

All bullshit positions aside ...somehow someway this shit has GOT to stop !

I survived the FUCKING cold war ...thousands of fucking missiles aimed at a mass armageddon...WTF !

YOU ASSHOLES I want my FUCKING peace divadend ! I'm too old for this shit dammit ..grow up and get a fucking life the whole fucking fanatical lot of you..

lesse the Four horsemen of the Apocalypse...

Death
WAR
Famine
Sickness


BUT the most deadly is the fifth horse

Man .


i feel much better now..

back to watching the world blow up ..

Death
WAR
Famine
Sickness

Actually, they are:

Peace
War
Plague/famine/pestilence
Death

He relies on the old 'doesnt sufficiently condemn the other side' line, which is rather amusing, considering that Israel has faced sanction over acts that are without parallel on the other side, and indeed an offence whether the other side actually existed or not (the settlements).
This is why I stated that Bolton's refusal to back the Resolution was bogus. The US could easily have suggested to Israel to hold back, and I am relatively certain that they would have. The US was standing in front of the fan when Israel flung the poo!!

Well considering the amount of Muslim nations compared to Israel, UK, and US...
'Muslim' nations? Meaning.... what exactly?

Theocracies? Large population of people who are Muslim? Arab? What?

I guarantee you that recent events are strengthening Hezbollah rather than 'destroying' it. Right now, while Israel pulverises the pro-west, developing, moderate, example nation of the muslim world, the majority of Hezbollah will be chilling in Syria petioneering signups from the once moderate muslims who have had their homes shelled to pieces and families violently detonated by the 'infidels'. Clearly the US has not set a clear enough example that ideas (like Hezbollah, Islam, Terrorism, immorality, freedom, and others...) cannot be bombed. Attempting to do so will usually augment the very idea you are attempting to eradicate.

I guarantee you that recent events are strengthening Hezbollah rather than 'destroying' it. Right now, while Israel pulverises the pro-west, developing, moderate, example nation of the muslim world, the majority of Hezbollah will be chilling in Syria petioneering signups from the once moderate muslims who have had their homes shelled to pieces and families violently detonated by the 'infidels'. Clearly the US has not set a clear enough example that ideas (like Hezbollah, Islam, Terrorism, immorality, freedom, and others...) cannot be bombed. Attempting to do so will usually augment the very idea you are attempting to eradicate.

Unfortunately, you're right.

Frankly, I want to see the entire Middle East wiped off the face of the Earth. No more of that bitch-fighting, no more worries of "zOMG ISRAEL-ARAB pwnpwnn00blolzololomgwtfbbq", no more worries of a nuclear armed Iran lead by clerics who don't give a damn about...well, anything, and no more worries about oil and global warming! With 25% or so of the world's oil supply gone, we'd have to rely on newer, cleaner fuels! :D

Okay, how about supplying a credible link for this suspicious "conspiracy"?

www.abovetopsecret.com

:p :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acVA0uDdxws

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5207478.stm


UN appalled by Beirut devastation

Hezbollah rockets killed two, and left a car riddled with ball bearings
The UN's Jan Egeland has condemned the devastation caused by Israeli air strikes in Beirut, saying it is a violation of humanitarian law.

Mr Egeland, the UN's emergency relief chief, described the destruction as "horrific" as he toured the city.

He arrived hours after another Israeli strike on Beirut. Israel also hit Sidon, a port city in the south crammed with refugees, for the first time.

In Haifa, two people died as Hezbollah rockets struck the Israeli city.

Fifteen people were reportedly injured by the volley of rockets, which struck a house and an industrial zone.

The BBC News website's Raffi Berg visited the scene of one of the rocket attacks in northern Haifa.

He says the rocket exploded next to a carriageway, raking passing cars with shrapnel and ball bearings and killing a man in a nearby vehicle.

A later barrage of missiles was reported to have injured five people.

'Block after block'

Mr Egeland arrived in southern Beirut on Sunday just hours after Israeli strikes on the Hezbollah stronghold.

A visibly moved Mr Egeland expressed shock that "block after block" of buildings had been levelled.

He said the "disproportionate response" by Israel was a "violation of international humanitarian law".

He appealed for both sides to halt attacks and said UN supplies of humanitarian aid would begin to arrive in the next few days.

"But we need safe access," he said. "So far Israel is not giving us access."

Israel has said it will lift its blockade on Beirut's port to allow aid through, but with roads, bridges and trucks among Israel's targets, transporting it around the country is difficult.

In other developments:

* UK Foreign Minister Kim Howells is due to meet Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni. A day after accusing Israel of targeting "the entire Lebanese nation", he said the British government understood Israel's need to defend itself and criticised Hezbollah for hiding weapons in civilian areas.

* The US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is due to leave for the Middle East later on Sunday.

* Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz said Israel supports the idea of an international peacekeeping force in south Lebanon, and suggested it should be led by Nato. A Nato official said there had been no discussion so far of any Nato role.

* Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Israel had "pushed the button for its own destruction".

* Syria's information minister said his country would enter the conflict if a major Israeli ground invasion of Lebanon threatened the security of Damascus.

* An unarmed UN observer was seriously wounded during fighting between Israeli forces and Hezbollah fighters in the village of Maroun al-Ras, which Israel said it had taken control of on Saturday.

* The French and German foreign ministers are also in Israel for talks on the crisis.

Sidon targeted

Israel's bombing campaign continued, with strikes on Beirut and on southern and eastern Lebanon in the early hours of Sunday.


HAVE YOUR SAY
When one Israeli soldier is kidnapped, the whole world goes crazy, but Israel kidnapped a whole nation
Mike

Send us your comments
The Associated Press news agency reported at least eight deaths on Sunday - an eight-year-old boy, a Lebanese photographer, three civilians fleeing in a minibus, and three Hezbollah fighters.

One target was the southern port of Sidon, a city not previously targeted by Israel, where 42,000 refugees from the surrounding area have flooded in the hope of safety.

The BBC's Roger Hearing in the city reports that a mosque was destroyed in one strike, which hit less than 500m (550 yards) from a hospital. At least four people were injured.

While Israel said the mosque was a meeting place for Hezbollah militants, local doctors insisted it was just "a place for prayers".

Bombing intensifies

The BBC's Jim Muir in the southern city of Tyre reports intense bombardment, with Hezbollah firing missiles from the area and Israel launching air strikes in retaliation.

At least 15 civilian vehicles have been hit on the roads, including one taking injured people to a nearby hospital, he says.

Further east, more Israeli air strikes forced engineers to turn back who were trying to repair impassable roads so a UN-escorted aid convoy could get through, our correspondent reports.

He says that bombing has intensified in the region since Israel dropped warning leaflets on Friday, and the Israelis are now shooting at almost anything on moving on the roads.

At least 364 Lebanese have been killed in the 12 days of violence, many of them civilians, and angry protests condemning Israeli attacks have been held in cities around the world.

At least 36 Israelis have been killed, including 17 civilians killed by rockets fired by Hezbollah into Israel.

Don't know if you are American or not, but the strongest supporters of the nation of Israel in the USA are the evangelical Christians.

Heard it on NPR a couple of days ago, lest you question my sources.:D

And you know why they support us right? So that there sick prophecy can come true. The one where Jesus comes back and all Jews have to either convert or die, yes thats the one. The don't support us because they like us:rolleyes:

And you know why they support us right? So that there sick prophecy can come true. The one where Jesus comes back and all Jews have to either convert or die, yes thats the one. The don't support us because they like us:rolleyes:

It reminds me the situation of the cuban opposition...

It's been always similar and many people are still getting fooled by the USA. But, hey, this is not the topic...

Is the UN biased against Israel?
Does the Pope wear a funny hat?
Do bears crap in the Kremlin?

Unfortunately, you're right.

Frankly, I want to see the entire Middle East wiped off the face of the Earth. No more of that bitch-fighting, no more worries of "zOMG ISRAEL-ARAB pwnpwnn00blolzololomgwtfbbq", no more worries of a nuclear armed Iran lead by clerics who don't give a damn about...well, anything, and no more worries about oil and global warming! With 25% or so of the world's oil supply gone, we'd have to rely on newer, cleaner fuels! :D

It would be a matter of seconds before the yanks would find "evidence of WMD's" in norway and invade their oil-rigs.

It would be a matter of seconds before the yanks would find "evidence of WMD's" in norway and invade their oil-rigs.

Well that's not true at all, and if you were being funny, well, you failed.

Good job being serious and obliterating the levity. :mad:

Is the UN biased against Israel?
Does the Pope wear a funny hat?
Do bears crap in the Kremlin?

Why is the UN supposed to be biased against Israel? It only gets mentioned so much because the US keeps vetoing resolutions over the same issues. As ever, its not the UN that has the problem, except in the form of America.

Why is the UN supposed to be biased against Israel? It only gets mentioned so much because the US keeps vetoing resolutions over the same issues. As ever, its not the UN that has the problem, except in the form of America.

The UN the most useless organazation ever, you want to call out the US for its vetos, how about Russa or China....These two nations vetos are much more dangerous (on Iran,N Korea, as well as many others) then any of the US vetos on Israel.

The UN the most useless organazation ever, you want to call out the US for its vetos, how about Russa or China....These two nations vetos are much more dangerous (on Iran,N Korea, as well as many others) then any of the US vetos on Israel.

emmm...isn;t all the hype about the "war on terror" usually to do with people from the middle-east? Werent those "can fly but not good on take-off and landings" types that ran into the twin towers from the middle east? Isnt US unilateral support of Israel part of what alienates the Iranian, Iraqi, Saudi, Egyptian, Jordanian, Kuwaiti, Qatari, Syrian, Turkish etc and so peoples?

And isnt it true that should a war erupt there the price of oil will skyrocket?

If you want to complain about the chinese and Russians, complain over what they do Tibet and Chechnya.

Anti-Semmites are everywhere. Thier hatred surpasses any logic, reason, or rhyme..

Consider this; Isral is smaller then some of our states, it's tiny compared to the rest of the middle-east and yet they persist to fight it, calling it thier land, why can't they just let The Jews live in peace on thier little landheap?


Its nice to see people still equating anti-zionist with anti-semitic. Its nice to see people who oppose Israels agression against the entire middle east as anti-semitic.

Cause they're hatmongerers.. I completely sympathise for Isral, look at who dislikes The Jews.

The Nazis.
The Klan.
The Taliban.
Liberals.

Nice people liberals are asscosiated with huh?

Even if Isral was gone it would not end thier hatred, The middle-east would still be assholes who shit all over our countries and ways of life.

It's rascism, pure and simple. We worry about preadjudice here in the United States meanwhile a Jew can't leave his house without risking being shot..

Jews arent the only ones hated by these groups, so stop trying to draw sympathy.

Anti-Semmites are everywhere. Thier hatred surpasses any logic, reason, or rhyme..
Right because anyone who opposes what Israel does is an anti-semite. Just like anyone who opposes Saddam Husein is Anti-Arab, anyone who hates communism is a Sino-phobe, and anyone who thinks Putin is restricting freedom is a Lebansraum happy nazi :rolleyes:

Consider this; Isral is smaller then some of our states, it's tiny compared to the rest of the middle-east and yet they persist to fight it, calling it thier land, why can't they just let The Jews live in peace on thier little landheap?
Fair enough, I will conceed that they should have no beef with israel because they took a small hunk of land if you give me a small hunk of your property, say your closet. Mine, for me to put my stuff in. You don't want to be like those evil arabs right. Whats a small peice of your property. After all why cant you just let me live in peace in your closet.

Cause they're hatmongerers.. I completely sympathise for Isral, look at who dislikes The Jews.
This I admit to. I am a hatmonger. I make my living selling hats. I'm a bad person:D

The Nazis.
The Klan.
The Taliban.
Liberals.

Nice people liberals are asscosiated with huh?
And no conservative figure has ever, ever been associated with anti-semitism

It's rascism, pure and simple. We worry about preadjudice here in the United States meanwhile a Jew can't leave his house without risking being shot..
Right, totally no other possible reason someone could disagree with Israels actions.

Fair enough, I will conceed that they should have no beef with israel because they took a small hunk of land if you give me a small hunk of your property, say your closet. Mine, for me to put my stuff in. You don't want to be like those evil arabs right. Whats a small peice of your property. After all why cant you just let me live in peace in your closet.

Hey, I've got a closet for you. You can move into it if you want to, go right ahead. You don't get anything but the closet, though. Just be watchful of the skeletons. :D


This I admit to. I am a hatmonger. I make my living selling hats. I'm a bad person.

:eek: zOMG! How could you even dare do do such a thing! I am calling the police right now to arrest you! You are a despicable, and horrible person!

:eek: zOMG! How could you even dare do do such a thing! I am calling the police right now to arrest you! You are a despicable, and horrible person!

And, moreover, he is Monger! :D

But, seriously, he's true. I specially like

And no conservative figure has ever, ever been associated with anti-semitism

The problem with the UN is that they admitted all of these sort of Islamic theocracies, and third world banana republic dictator regimes, and now the UN as an organization merely reflects on the majority of its members, and it's gotten to the point where nations like Sudan and Yemen are on the Human Rights Council.

The UN the most useless organazation ever, you want to call out the US for its vetos, how about Russa or China....These two nations vetos are much more dangerous (on Iran,N Korea, as well as many others) then any of the US vetos on Israel.
Speaking of Russia, try this:

Russia Criticizes US Use Of UN Veto On Mideast Resolution (http://www.beurs.nl/nieuws/artikel.php?id=141080&taal=US)

How about Russian and Chinese vetoes?

Since the Security Council's inception, China (ROC/PRC) has used 5 vetoes; France, 18; Russia/USSR, 122; the United Kingdom, 32; and the United States, 80. The majority of the USSR vetoes were in the first ten years of the Council's existence, and the numbers since 1984 have been: China, 2; France, 3; Russia, 4; the United Kingdom, 10; and the United States, 42.

In the past 22 years, it has been the US 42 vetoes, the rest of the Security Council 19.

MOST of the US 42 vetoes were to block Resolutions against Israel.

You would be amazed at what some of the other US vetoes were for!!!

Well in our defense Reagan had just read hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and insisted we get that number to exactly 42.;)

I find it interesting that Israel, while attempting to prevent foreign terrorists from firing missiles into their cities and killing their civilians, is being accused by the UN of "war crimes," while Lebanon, which harbors a foreign-funded terrorist group that consistently launches weapons from within its borders into a foreign country, is martyred here.

It is regrettable that Lebanon has to be subjected to this. But honestly, what do you expect? If there were a group of German radicals firing rockets into the French departments of Alsace and Lorraine, claiming that the French had stolen the land from them, and the German government did nothing to stop it, what do you think the UN would do? Condemn the Germans for doing nothing to stop it!

What makes the Muslim, Arab world immune from criticism? Why is Israel constantly subjected to criticism and vitriol?

Honestly, Israel isn't going anywhere without a fight. They aren't going anywhere, and the rest of the world has either got to realize that or strap on their guns and force Israel out. This Mideast conflict boils down to who's going to win in the end, and my money's on the Chosen People.

Don't blame Israel, blame Iran. They're the ones who fly weapons and money into Lebanon and outfit Hizbullah. Take the hard-liners on.

...blame Iran. They're the ones who fly weapons and money into Lebanon and outfit Hizbullah. Take the hard-liners on.I you do NOT blame Bush for rushing Bombs and Cash to the Israel Army.. you can hardly blame Iran(or Syria) for sending weapons and cash to Hezbollah.

I you do NOT blame Bush for rushing Bombs and Cash to the Israel Army.. you can hardly blame Iran(or Syria) for sending weapons and cash to Hezbollah.

Iran and Syria have been doing this LONG BEFORE BUSH!

Iran and Syria have been doing this LONG BEFORE BUSH!

Just serving their own interests of course, much like any country is won't to do. It is in Iran and Syria's interest for a well armed militant group to fight Israel for them, just as it is in the US's best interest to keep Israel and countless (I probably could count them, and others probably already have, but it's late and I'm feeling lazy...) other little countries armed. All these terrorist groups and rogue nations have to be armed by someone, more often than not they have some hidden military backing from some major power or other, nothing new there.

Just serving their own interests of course, much like any country is won't to do. It is in Iran and Syria's interest for a well armed militant group to fight Israel for them, just as it is in the US's best interest to keep Israel and countless (I probably could count them, and others probably already have, but it's late and I'm feeling lazy...) other little countries armed. All these terrorist groups and rogue nations have to be armed by someone, more often than not they have some hidden military backing from some major power or other, nothing new there.

Yep though I was just pointing out to OD that the funding and weapons from Iran and syria has been going on long before Bush took over as president.

Yep though I was just pointing out to OD that the funding and weapons from Iran and syria has been going on long before Bush took over as president.

Sorry to step in, couldn't help myself, just adding to both sides arguments, as there is nothing new with the backing of either side here.

Sorry to step in, couldn't help myself, just adding to both sides arguments, as there is nothing new with the backing of either side here.

No argument out of me

...nothing new there.true.

I still expect some morons to "cry murder" when Iran sell (or gives) weapons to Hezbollah.

true.

I still expect some tools to "cry murder" when Iran sell (or gives) weapons to Hezbollah.

Hezbollah should no longer exist since Lebanon is no longer occupied.

Excellent, and with that I take my leave, adios.

Or so I was until I saw Cornelius post, so one more response. Well, you know how hard any kind of organisation is to disband. Especially when they're armed and fuelled with hate. Would you want to be the guy who tells them they no longer have a need to exist? I sure wouldn't. Actually It was the same thing with Al-qaeda (I have no idea how it's actually spelt, It's something like that though right?), They were created to kick the Russians out of Afghanistan, and yet they still seem to be around. (I might be wrong about that actually, Thinking back now they may have formed up afterwards, although many were likely remnants from the CIA trained militants who fought the Soviets... Damn history lessons, now I can't even trust myself.)

Excellent, and with that I take my leave, adios.Elvis has left the building..

Excellent, and with that I take my leave, adios.

Peace be with you my friend.

Peace be with you my friend.

and with you as well, Check back on the previous page, I launched a bit more stuff for fun. (just a few observations more than anything else.)