NationStates Jolt Archive

After making a thread about the nature of the support the Lebanese offer for Hezbollah, I think it is time to consider another important question:

The view people have about Israel's policies, inside and outside the country. I listened to a radio program yesterday night (listen (http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack/mod_windows/fri.asx) if you have half an hour, it's the second topic I think), and their guest was a Jew from Australia who has written a book about the Israeli question. And one thing that struck him was that Jews (but also many others) around the country don't dare to criticise Israel's policies openly.

There is basically one view of Israel, and that is that it is right in what it does to protect its existence.

Of course, if you go to Israel, the opinions there are much more diverse. Unfortunately I don't usually follow the Israeli media, so I'm unlikely to know where to look for examples - but rest assured that not all pundits in Israel are behind the government on this (and virtually everything else). Yes, they want a stop to the rocket attacks, but not like this. Remember, Israel was created by socialists, by lefties. The sort of people Americans would call "dirty Hippies (http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2010/stories/20030523000507600.htm)" or "Liberals" have a long tradition in that country.

So why is it that dissent within Israel is ripe, that the Israelis themselves know that their country is strong enough to deal with criticism...but in Australia or the US questioning what happens will get you Godwinned at best. Why is it that people outside Israel are so much more sensitive to criticism of it than the Israelis themselves, who have so much more diverse views?

Because people who criticise Israel, its policies or their military and aren't Jewish or Israeli are clearly baby-eating, Arab-loving, anti-Semitic Nazis.

That is a very good question to which i have no answer...

So why is it that dissent within Israel is ripe, that the Israelis themselves know that their country is strong enough to deal with criticism...but in Australia or the US questioning what happens will get you Godwinned at best. Why is it that people outside Israel are so much more sensitive to criticism of it than the Israelis themselves, who have so much more diverse views?

Hmmm, when I was in Israel, most of the people that I was with there were right wing Israeli nationalists...and while there are lots of left wingers around there...they mostly vote left wing because they live on Kibbutzes or are involved in the labor party...not because they dont want to fight the arabs. Thats just the general opinion I got from being there.

A jewish guy I know is going on a camp in Israel sometime and he summed up the agenda as 'trying to turn us into zionists'.

People complain about the US having a bad case of Manifest Destiny, it's NOTHING to what the Israelis seem to have.

Well, since pretty much everyone in Israel has to serve in the IDF, of course people wont be against any actions it takes, and Frankly, Israel is definatly doing the right thing in this current war.

Well, since pretty much everyone in Israel has to serve in the IDF, of course people wont be against any actions it takes

Courage to Refuse (http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp)

You're wrong, my friend. There are plenty liberals here in the US, such as Richard Cohen, that are openly critical of Israel. They're also Jewish.

You're wrong, my friend. There are plenty liberals here in the US, such as Richard Cohen, that are openly critical of Israel. They're also Jewish.
And do you believe that Richard Cohen is popular with his local Rabbi, and the rest of the temple's local community?

Fact of the matter is, and surely you would agree, that although there are exceptions, generally the views of Jewish communities (and of people in the Western world generally, probably moreso in the US and Australia) are much more homogenous on what Israel is doing - namely that it is great, no matter what. In Israel on the other hand, views are much more diverse, and can be made public much easier without resulting in the person getting stigmatised

It would be great to hear the opinions of a few people who live in Israel, or who have a lot to do with Jewish communities. I think it is an interesting issue.

The Jew that I know is a communist pacifist and against Israel's blitz.

In France I understand there are many Jews who are critical of Israel's policys.

(Remember France has the largest Jewish community outside of Israel and the USA.)

To be honest, I know no Jews personally. Sadly, there are so few left in Ireland- not even enough to warrant a category on the latest census.

So why is it that dissent within Israel is ripe, that the Israelis themselves know that their country is strong enough to deal with criticism...but in Australia or the US questioning what happens will get you Godwinned at best. Why is it that people outside Israel are so much more sensitive to criticism of it than the Israelis themselves, who have so much more diverse views?Well, last I heard 80% of the Israelis were in favor of the government's actions against Lebanon and Palestine.

To be honest, I know no Jews personally. Sadly, there are so few left in Ireland- not even enough to warrant a category on the latest census.
I know a very small number of them, but most of them have gone to England. The Irish Jews find so few fellow Jews here so they go to England, and then it repeats. Our country will be the poorer for it.

To be honest, I know no Jews personally. Sadly, there are so few left in Ireland- not even enough to warrant a category on the latest census.

About 2,000. Thats actually up from under 900 a few years back.

I know a very small number of them, but most of them have gone to England. The Irish Jews find so few fellow Jews here so they go to England, and then it repeats. Our country will be the poorer for it.

*nods*

About 2,000. Thats actually up from under 900 a few years back.
Really? I thought that the Jewish population here peaked at 5,000 in the 1950s, and has been declining since.

About 2,000. Thats actually up from under 900 a few years back.
Well we won't have accurate picture this time as it wasn't a category in the cesus. Only guess work.... or camping outside the synagogue will tell us. :D

Really? I thought that the Jewish population here peaked at 5,000 in the 1950s, and has been declining since.

Went back up due to improved outlook over the few years.

"The second largest religion, the Church of Ireland (Anglican), with a largely elderly membership, had until recently been in decline. It had been forced to close down many of its rural churches, and even some in urban areas. However, recent immigration of thousands of African Anglicans has buoyed the Church's following. A similar phenomenon is also affecting the very small Jewish community in Ireland, which is ageing and sees many of its younger adherents emigrating to Israel. The religions showing major growth are Islam (See Islam in Ireland) and small born-again Christian faiths associated with Ireland's growing immigrant communities." (my bold)

"The country also has a small Jewish community with 1,790 members, according to the census of 2002."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland

I read that some came back/arrived as above in the Indo ages ago, but I can't find the poxy article now.

Fact of the matter is, and surely you would agree, that although there are exceptions, generally the views of Jewish communities (and of people in the Western world generally, probably moreso in the US and Australia) are much more homogenous on what Israel is doing - namely that it is great, no matter what. In Israel on the other hand, views are much more diverse, and can be made public much easier without resulting in the person getting stigmatised

It would be great to hear the opinions of a few people who live in Israel, or who have a lot to do with Jewish communities. I think it is an interesting issue.

Well, I don't live in Israel, but I have spent a lot of time among other US Jews.

I haven't seen many statistics, which makes this reply is tentative, but I think the notion that the US Jewish community is "homogenous" in support of Israel is very mistaken. I do recall a poll a few years ago that indicated that more US Jews sympathized with the center-left Americans for Peace Now than the more ardently pro-Israel American-Israel Public Affairs Committee.

My own family is decidedly left-wing; sympathetic to Israel, pro-Zionist, but hardly supportive of Sharon/Likud/etc., and very skeptical that disproportionate military responses like the one we are seeing right now will solve anything. I would say this sort of perspective is very common, especially among the more liberal Jewish circles.

There are also the right-wing Jews on the topic - but if you start talking to them about the Iraq War, or about George W. Bush, you'll see that in general such right-wing attitudes extend quite a bit beyond this particular topic. There are definitely exceptions to that, though; there are a surprisingly high number of center-left Jews who are also radical supporters of Israel.

Jews are definitely a good deal more pro-Israel than the average US citizen, and more pro-Israel than a simple look at their political ideology would suggest - even I am more sympathetic to the Israeli government than many of those who sympathize with me politically - but we're not a mindless group of warmongering Zionists who cheer on every action of the Israeli government. Not even in general.

It's true that those who criticize Israel loudly and constantly, even if the criticism is (relatively) mild - people like Rabbi Michael Lerner - will be villified to a degree, but that can be expected to happen to anyone who voices any political view loudly and constantly.

People like Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein are another story, but not only are both of them radical enough that they would be attracting strong criticism anyway, but they also tend to be quite deliberately provocative - especially on the subject of Israel.