NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems that President Ahmadinejad of Iran has sought help on the question of the "Zionists." His ten page letter addresses the issues of "Zionism" and "solutions to the Palestinian conflict." It asks for specific help from ... Germany.
Yes, Ahmadinejad has sent a letter to the German chancellor Angela Merkel asking for help in combatting "Zionism":
"It's all related to Germany and how we have to find a solution to the Palestinian problems and Zionism and so on. It's rather wierd," said the official who saw the letter Thursday.Deutsche Welle (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2105143,00.html?maca=en-tagesschau_englisch-335-rdf-mp)
"It contains many statements that are not acceptable to us, in particular about Israel, the state of Israel's right to exist and the Holocaust."CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/21/iran.letter.ap/index.html)

This throws up some serious questions about Ahmadinejad. Why does he believe that Germany is a bastion of anti-semitism? Is this a problem with his education or unwillingness to trust more reliable sources of information? Did he not understand the controversy of allowing him to enter the country should he want to see one of Iran's games during the world cup?

Perhaps it's a gamble that the German people have such a guilty conscience about the holocaust that they'll agree with him and deny it to ease their troubled minds.

I presume such a letter will end up very rapidly where it belongs, in the waste paper basket.

This throws up some serious questions about Ahmadinejad. Why does he believe that Germany is a bastion of anti-semitism? Is this a problem with his education or unwillingness to trust more reliable sources of information? Did he not understand the controversy of allowing him to enter the country should he want to see one of Iran's games during the world cup?
Honestly, I don't think there needed any more questions to be thrown up. It doesn't really matter where his delusions come from (socialization or mental problems [personally, I don't see them as just being some calculated propaganda he doesn't believe in himself]), it is how it is and it's what everybody has to deal with when it comes to him and to Iran under his rule.
I don't envy anyone who has to hammer out compromises and dealings with someone so blinded by lies and hatred.

Honestly, I don't think there needed any more questions to be thrown up. It doesn't really matter where his delusions come from (socialization or mental problems [personally, I don't see them as just being some calculated propaganda he doesn't believe in himself]), it is how it is and it's what everybody has to deal with when it comes to him and to Iran under his rule.
I don't envy anyone who has to hammer out compromises and dealings with someone so blinded by lies and hatred.Luckily, he's "just a figurehead". The mullahs are the ones with the real power. Maybe they made sure they have a lunatic in office because he's easier to control than someone capable of rational decisions.

Luckily, he's "just a figurehead". The mullahs are the ones with the real power. Maybe they made sure they have a lunatic in office because he's easier to control than someone capable of rational decisions.

But how long's he got left in his term? 3ish years?

Oye. That's depressing.

But how long's he got left in his term? 3ish years?

Oye. That's depressing.I've seen some footage that the German public channels shot in Iran a few days ago. They taped a man saying that if 60 million people want peace, no one can force a war on them. That's a cheerful thought :)

I have a couple German friends, and their general reaction to any questions on the subject, is an uncomfortable laugh, followed by "Israel is super!" and two awkward thumbs up.

What a dork. :p

I have a couple German friends, and their general reaction to any questions on the subject, is an uncomfortable laugh, followed by "Israel is super!" and two awkward thumbs up.
o.O

Funny, I've never encountered that reaction.

Luckily, he's "just a figurehead". The mullahs are the ones with the real power. Maybe they made sure they have a lunatic in office because he's easier to control than someone capable of rational decisions.
Ahayatollah even!

I have a couple German friends, and their general reaction to any questions on the subject, is an uncomfortable laugh, followed by "Israel is super!" and two awkward thumbs up.
Are they related to the Rocke...
Ah forget it!

*Thinks about Cold Case*

I've seen some footage that the German public channels shot in Iran a few days ago. They taped a man saying that if 60 million people want peace, no one can force a war on them. That's a cheerful thought :)

No one inside their own country, maybe.

I'm not surprised at this. Eventually, there's going to be a generation of Germans who are reactionary to their nation's docileness. Ahmadinejad is trying to speed it up.

I'm not surprised at this. Eventually, there's going to be a generation of Germans who are reactionary to their nation's docileness. Ahmadinejad is trying to speed it up.

I somehow doubt he will live to that ripe an age.... it'll be a couple more generations at least.

No one inside their own country, maybe.Indeed. The context of that comment was the potential of direct conflict with Israel.

Indeed. The context of that comment was the potential of direct conflict with Israel.

Alright then. :)

I'm not surprised at this. Eventually, there's going to be a generation of Germans who are reactionary to their nation's docileness. Ahmadinejad is trying to speed it up.Maybe you've been reading the same sources as Ahmadinejad...

Typical Persians ... it's obvious his nuke programme isn't working yet.

Typical Persians ... it's obvious his nuke programme isn't working yet.How many Persians do you know?

How many Persians do you know?

I know three. But they're all cats. :)

How many Persians do you know?

Judging from history, Persia and it's successor states seem to be hell bent on making sure there's no successor to ancient Israel.

Judging from history, Persia and it's successor states seem to be hell bent on making sure there's no successor to ancient Israel.So not judging from personal experience then...
You have no idea what a "typical Persian" is like, I take it then.

I know three. But they're all cats. :)Do they typically send anti-Israeli letters? :p

Do they typically send anti-Israeli letters? :p

No. But they hiss a lot at the jewish kids. ;)

It seems that President Ahmadinejad of Iran has sought help on the question of the "Zionists." His ten page letter addresses the issues of "Zionism" and "solutions to the Palestinian conflict." It asks for specific help from ... Germany.
Yes, Ahmadinejad has sent a letter to the German chancellor Angela Merkel asking for help in combatting "Zionism":
Deutsche Welle (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2105143,00.html?maca=en-tagesschau_englisch-335-rdf-mp)
CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/21/iran.letter.ap/index.html)

This throws up some serious questions about Ahmadinejad. Why does he believe that Germany is a bastion of anti-semitism? Is this a problem with his education or unwillingness to trust more reliable sources of information? Did he not understand the controversy of allowing him to enter the country should he want to see one of Iran's games during the world cup?


Have you considered the possibility that Ahmadinejad is the most insane president since Idi Amin Dada?

Have you considered the possibility that Ahmadinejad is the most insane president since Idi Amin Dada?Indeed I have. There is also the possibility that he wants war and is trying to goad the P5 and Germany into giving it to him.

Maybe you've been reading the same sources as Ahmadinejad...

Trust me, there'll be a reactionary generation. It's natural. They won't be Nazis or anything, just more patriotic and militaristic.

Indeed I have. There is also the possibility that he wants war and is trying to goad the P5 and Germany into giving it to him.

Don't be too sure about that. The 'and' is... suspect.

It may be a bit dated for you, but there was a period where your average England Football Fan really believed that the best way to show appreciation for a german player was by shouting 'Sieg Heil!'.

Of course Ahmad the bathmat wants a war at some stage,
but he hardly has to goad - all he needs to do is let off a bomb.

It may be a bit dated for you, but there was a period where your average England Football Fan really believed that the best way to show appreciation for a german player was by shouting 'Sieg Heil!'.


2003ish was it? :D

2003ish was it? :D

OMG - still that late?

*is sometimes embarrassed by the FCUK crowd*

anyway... Barmy Army! Barmy Army! Barmy Army!

More evidence that Ahmadinejad is full of bull.

Don't be too sure about that. The 'and' is... suspect.

It may be a bit dated for you, but there was a period where your average England Football Fan really believed that the best way to show appreciation for a german player was by shouting 'Sieg Heil!'.

Of course Ahmad the bathmat wants a war at some stage,
but he hardly has to goad - all he needs to do is let off a bomb.It's just one of many possibilities. If he really is insane, there's no telling what he believes true or not.

The most logical conclusion I've come up with so far is that he relies on Zündel for his education on the 3rd Reich.

It seems that President Ahmadinejad of Iran has sought help on the question of the "Zionists." His ten page letter addresses the issues of "Zionism" and "solutions to the Palestinian conflict." It asks for specific help from ... Germany.
Yes, Ahmadinejad has sent a letter to the German chancellor Angela Merkel asking for help in combatting "Zionism":
Deutsche Welle (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2105143,00.html?maca=en-tagesschau_englisch-335-rdf-mp)
CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/21/iran.letter.ap/index.html)

This throws up some serious questions about Ahmadinejad. Why does he believe that Germany is a bastion of anti-semitism? Is this a problem with his education or unwillingness to trust more reliable sources of information? Did he not understand the controversy of allowing him to enter the country should he want to see one of Iran's games during the world cup?


The man must have a death wish. That's about the only possible explanation for this kind of irrantional behaviour. That or he's been brainwashed by Iran's leaders so badly that he's lost his grip on reality altogether.

o.O

Funny, I've never encountered that reaction.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Super.jpg
And you are super, too! (No, I'm not comparing you to Israel, 'mkay?)

Anyway, while nobody should underestimate the idiot, I believe he just wants to stirr the West. Doesn't really work, I take it.

I'm not surprised at this. Eventually, there's going to be a generation of Germans who are reactionary to their nation's docileness. Ahmadinejad is trying to speed it up.
"Docileness"? What do you think the Germans are being docile about? Not exterminating Jews? :rolleyes: Maybe Amadinejad sent his letter to the wrong person.

It seems that President Ahmadinejad of Iran has sought help on the question of the "Zionists." His ten page letter addresses the issues of "Zionism" and "solutions to the Palestinian conflict." It asks for specific help from ... Germany.
Yes, Ahmadinejad has sent a letter to the German chancellor Angela Merkel asking for help in combatting "Zionism":
Deutsche Welle (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2105143,00.html?maca=en-tagesschau_englisch-335-rdf-mp)
CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/21/iran.letter.ap/index.html)

This throws up some serious questions about Ahmadinejad. Why does he believe that Germany is a bastion of anti-semitism? Is this a problem with his education or unwillingness to trust more reliable sources of information? Did he not understand the controversy of allowing him to enter the country should he want to see one of Iran's games during the world cup?


No, I don't believe he "gets it". Nor does he seem to have an accurate view of history.

It's also odd that in a world that is quick to blame the US for every problem under the sun, that Iran is blaming Germany.

It's also odd that in a world that is quick to blame the US for every problem under the sun, that Iran is blaming Germany. o.O
Didn't you read the OP, not to mention the thread or the links? He isn't blaming Germany, he's appealing to us for help, presumably in a horribly misguided feeling that he'll find sympathetic ears here.

From the Deutsche Welle link:
"It's not negative like Ahmadinejad's letter to Bush. He is not criticising Germany," he told Reuters. "It's basically about how we have to work together and solve the problems of the world together."

o.O
Didn't you read the OP, not to mention the thread or the links? He isn't blaming Germany, he's appealing to us for help, presumably in a horribly misguided feeling that he'll find sympathetic ears here.

From the Deutsche Welle link:

Yes, I did.

But if you're saying that Germany has to do something (and they haven't - you don't see German troops conquering Israel and pushing the Jews onto boats to take them away), then it is blaming.

At the very least, it's like saying, "why aren't you solving this problem that YOU made".

The Iranian President has said many times in the past that Israel (and its existence) is Europe's fault, Europe's problem, and that Europe should be the one to solve it by force.

He does have a weird point of view, doesn't he. :p

I think he makes Germany responsible for the existence of Israel (and he may have a point) due to the Holocaust. In the past he's said that Germany might have been a better place for Israel, that Europeans and not Arabs should have paid for the mistakes made. I think he's genuine when he says that, he really does see that as unfair (I'd hold against that that the Israelis wanted to live in the Middle East, and went there by their own free will).

He probably understands that Germany sees itself to have something of a historical responsibility with regards to Israel and the future of a Jewish State. In the letter he'd probably have asked why it is that Germany doesn't care about the "other victims" of the Holocaust, namely the people displaced when the Jews came to Israel and established that state.

Here's an interview he did with Spiegel a while back. I think it gives a great insight into his views on Germany.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html

I think in his twisted world he actually believes that part of the solution for the Middle East crisis lies in Berlin.

Perhaps it's a gamble that the German people have such a guilty conscience about the holocaust that they'll agree with him and deny it to ease their troubled minds.

I presume such a letter will end up very rapidly where it belongs, in the waste paper basket.
I think Holocaust denial might be illegal in Germany... I know it is in a number of European nations. At any rate, in Germany, if you call someone a Nazi or a fascist or insinuate things about anti-Semitism, you're picking a fight. Ahmadinejad is deranged.

This letter wasn’t meant to strike any chords in Germany. It’s meant to raise his esteem amongst his fellow Muslim leaders.
He isn’t crazy. While I agree with almost nothing he says, the more interviews I see with him and the more of his letters I read, the more impressed I am by his cunning.

He’s the Chavez of Asia.

Ahmadinejad should stop spamming European governments and take his message direct to the people -- the Nazi Skinheads!!

"We are your aryan brothers!! Come kill Jews with us and we'll see that you recieve an unlimited supply of virgins! Heil Hitler! World Cup 2010!"

Ahmadinejad should stop spamming European governments and take his message direct to the people -- the Nazi Skinheads!!

"We are your aryan brothers!! Come kill Jews with us and we'll see that you recieve an unlimited supply of virgins! Heil Hitler! World Cup 2010!"
Leave football out of this, please! And the rest ain't funny, either.

This throws up some serious questions about Ahmadinejad. Why does he believe that Germany is a bastion of anti-semitism? Is this a problem with his education or unwillingness to trust more reliable sources of information? Did he not understand the controversy of allowing him to enter the country should he want to see one of Iran's games during the world cup?

No, him thinking about anti-semitism in Germamy is not the reason.

He blames Germany for having created the conditions (holocaust guilt, in his opinion) leading to the creation of Israel.

He hopes (or leads us to believe so) that Germany would say "Oh shoot, sorry for putting Israel there, we will take them away from there pronto, we invite Iran for talks about how to do it"...

"Docileness"? What do you think the Germans are being docile about? Not exterminating Jews? :rolleyes: Maybe Amadinejad sent his letter to the wrong person.

They don't have military parades on national days, for example. I mean, there are little Pacific islands that have military parades. They march their mahakanahakana underwear warriors down the street of the capital. Germany can't muster up one lousy tank?

No, him thinking about anti-semitism in Germamy is not the reason.

He blames Germany for having created the conditions (holocaust guilt, in his opinion) leading to the creation of Israel.

He hopes (or leads us to believe so) that Germany would say "Oh shoot, sorry for putting Israel there, we will take them away from there pronto, we invite Iran for talks about how to do it"...

I don't think he really blames Germany. On the subject of Germany, Ahmadinejad has said things that made me like him just a little bit, sadly.

Leave football out of this, please! And the rest ain't funny, either.


Well now, during the infamous anti-racism conference in Durban, orthodox muslim delegates took to handing out leaflets which depicted a cartoon which regretted the defeat of the 3rd Reich, including the statement that if only Hitler had won, there would have been no Israeli State.

Islamic orthodoxy and Nazism? They go hand in hand.

Yes, I did.

But if you're saying that Germany has to do something (and they haven't - you don't see German troops conquering Israel and pushing the Jews onto boats to take them away), then it is blaming.

At the very least, it's like saying, "why aren't you solving this problem that YOU made".

The Iranian President has said many times in the past that Israel (and its existence) is Europe's fault, Europe's problem, and that Europe should be the one to solve it by force.And you know this because you've read all ten unpublished pages? All we have to judge what he said is what the German authorities are willing to say about it and they clearly stated that Germany isn't being criticized.

They don't have military parades on national days, for example. I mean, there are little Pacific islands that have military parades. They march their mahakanahakana underwear warriors down the street of the capital. Germany doesn't bother to muster up one lousy tank?
Fixed it.

Fixed it.
Strictly speaking, they did bother. They had a little parade and stuff for their anniversary a while back.

Problem was just that the parade had to be put under police protection because of the protesters. :D

Strictly speaking, they did bother. They had a little parade and stuff for their anniversary a while back.

Problem was just that the parade had to be put under police protection because of the protesters. :DQuite the opposite of "Germany can't muster one lousy tank", isn't it? ;)

Have you considered the possibility that Ahmadinejad is the most insane president since Idi Amin Dada?

I dunno, has he tried to give Merkel a back rub yet?

Did he not understand the controversy of allowing him to enter the country should he want to see one of Iran's games during the world cup?Ahmadinejad is a Pussy.

If I was him.. I would have taken the Pressidential Airbus.. Full with a all the Pressidential entourage.. and land it in Germany for every game Iran played.

Ahmadinejad need to grow some balls. Chavez anyone?

Ahmadinejad is a Pussy.

If I was him.. I would have taken the Pressidential Airbus.. Full with a all the Pressidential entourage.. and land it in Germany for every game Iran played.

Ahmadinejad need to grow some balls. Chavez anyone?It's a darn pity that foreign heads of state or government get immunity. I would have loved to see him arrested for "Volksverhetzung" should he have tried that. :)

I would have loved to see him arrested..I would really love to see that too..

I dunno, has he tried to give Merkel a back rub yet?

It would take a fair bit of negotiation before Merkel would accept a back rub, I think.
Even from harmless people like me. The Nazi Skin jokes would get her all tense, huh?

And you know this because you've read all ten unpublished pages? All we have to judge what he said is what the German authorities are willing to say about it and they clearly stated that Germany isn't being criticized.
I've read enough of what the Iranian President has said recently to know that he does indeed blame Europe.

I've read enough of what the Iranian President has said recently to know that he does indeed blame Europe.Which doesn't mean that he blames Germany in this letter.

Trust me, there'll be a reactionary generation. It's natural. They won't be Nazis or anything, just more patriotic and militaristic.

Thank goodness I'll be dead by then...

They don't have military parades on national days, for example. I mean, there are little Pacific islands that have military parades. They march their mahakanahakana underwear warriors down the street of the capital. Germany can't muster up one lousy tank?

And it didn't occur to you that maybe Germany doesn't have military parades because the Germans simply don't want them?


Oh, sorry, I forgot. If you don't celebrate the military on every possible occasion, you have to be a docile whimp, of course. Silly me! :rolleyes:

I dunno, has he tried to give Merkel a back rub yet?


He probably thinks she is unclean or something... but I'd love to see him try - and her retaliate.
'Mit euch komm ich nog fertig!' - Das tapfere Merkelchen.

Have you considered the possibility that Ahmadinejad is the most insane president since Idi Amin Dada?
I've considered this myself, but then I keep remembering Kim Jong-Il and Turkmenbashi. :rolleyes:

I've considered this myself, but then I keep remembering Kim Jong-Il and Turkmenbashi. :rolleyes:

There is a difference between insanity and retardia.
One is about wacky sensedata and the other is about crappy conclusions.

He probably thinks she is unclean or something... but I'd love to see him try - and her retaliate.
'Mit euch komm ich nog fertig!' - Das tapfere Merkelchen.Hahaha! :D

Well, she let Bush get away with it... I wonder why (http://www.eulenspiegel-zeitschrift.de/Eulenspiegel/Hintergrundbilder/Prakt1024/praktikantin.jpg)?

Hahaha! :D

Well, she let Bush get away with it... I wonder why (http://www.eulenspiegel-zeitschrift.de/Eulenspiegel/Hintergrundbilder/Prakt1024/praktikantin.jpg)?


I haven't checked your link yet, but thus far, your first female chancellor is the coolest German chancellor I've ever noticed.


*giggles@link*

... but thus far, your first female chancellor is the coolest German chancellor I've ever noticed.




Just goes to show what poor chancellors Germany usually elects... *sigh

No, I don't believe he "gets it". Nor does he seem to have an accurate view of history.

It's also odd that in a world that is quick to blame the US for every problem under the sun, that Iran is blaming Germany.
Besides the brainwashed masses of the Middle East and North Korea, who blames the US for all problems? Perhaps give a few example problems?

Besides the brainwashed masses of the Middle East and North Korea, who blames the US for all problems? Perhaps give a few example problems?

Deep Kimchi just stated that questioning the actions or inaction of a nation equals blaming them. Pretty thin-skinned, but if you go by that definition, it's easy to justify a persecution-complex...

this entire thread is based on one very dubious assumption:

criticism of israel and its actions is anti-semetic.

bullshit it is.

this entire thread is based on one very dubious assumption:

criticism of israel and its actions is anti-semetic.

bullshit it is.Hardly. It's based on the assumption that any non-Nazi German government takes the issue intensely seriously and is capable of recognizing anti-semitism in a ten page letter.

Hardly. It's based on the assumption that any non-Nazi German government takes the issue intensely seriously and is capable of recognizing anti-semitism in a ten page letter.

and the anti-semitism is where?

and the anti-semitism is where?Here:
"It contains many statements that are not acceptable to us, in particular about Israel, the state of Israel's right to exist and the Holocaust."CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/21/iran.letter.ap/index.html)

Here:
CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/21/iran.letter.ap/index.html)

I agree with you and your country 100% on this one.

Here:
CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/21/iran.letter.ap/index.html)

is that ANTI-SEMETIC or anti Israeli.

there is profound difference

is that ANTI-SEMETIC or anti Israeli.

there is profound differenceThe holocaust hardly took place in the state of Israel. Considering how he's dealt with the issue in the past, I would consider the possiblity that it's profound anti-semitism is much more likely than not. Anti-Israel is one thing, but the denying the Holocaust has little to do with being anti-Israeli.

The holocaust hardly took place in the state of Israel. Considering how he's dealt with the issue in the past, I would consider the possiblity that it's profound anti-semitism is much more likely than not. Anti-Israel is one thing, but the denying the Holocaust has little to do with being anti-Israeli.

make up your mind, is he denying the holocaust or celebrating it? its lazy name calling to throw that in there

his logic is simple, germany gassed them, germany should make it right. why should the palestinians suffer for the crimes of the nazis?

make up your mind, is he denying the holocaust or celebrating it? its lazy name calling to throw that in there

his logic is simple, germany gassed them, germany should make it right. why should the palestinians suffer for the crimes of the nazis?It's highly unlikely that they would have used the words they did to describe the letter if that was the case. They would have said something about criticizing Germany, if what you assume is correct, and that's been flat out denied.

It's highly unlikely that they would have used the words they did to describe the letter if that was the case. They would have said something about criticizing Germany, if what you assume is correct, and that's been flat out denied.

thats irans stated position on the subject

but keep telling yourself they are holocaust denyers :rolleyes:

thats irans stated position on the subject

but keep telling yourself they are holocaust :rolleyes:
Whatever :rolleyes:
It's unlikely that the government lied about the contents of the letter. If they say "It does not criticize Germany," that probably means it does not criticize Germany, which would rule out a letter about accusing Germany to be the cause of the problem. If they say "It contains many statements that are unnacceptable to us about the holocaust," that probably means that he was stating things contrary to historical truth.

They don't have military parades on national days, for example. I mean, there are little Pacific islands that have military parades. They march their mahakanahakana underwear warriors down the street of the capital. Germany can't muster up one lousy tank?
So the fuck what? The Germans (well, the Austrians, at least) invented psychotherapy, so maybe they figured out how to get over their phallic obsessions. Maybe you should try it -- and then go get some beers and march around in your underwear, if you really feel you need to.

No, him thinking about anti-semitism in Germamy is not the reason.

He blames Germany for having created the conditions (holocaust guilt, in his opinion) leading to the creation of Israel.

He hopes (or leads us to believe so) that Germany would say "Oh shoot, sorry for putting Israel there, we will take them away from there pronto, we invite Iran for talks about how to do it"...
Was this really the tone of the letter? It struck me as more "Say, you guys are German -- how do YOU think I should get rid of all the Jews?" That's why I imagine all the German officials just looking at this piece of paper, just kind of :eek:

I don't think he really blames Germany. On the subject of Germany, Ahmadinejad has said things that made me like him just a little bit, sadly.
Really? What things could psycho cannibal serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer have said about Germany to make you want to go out on a date with him?

Was this really the tone of the letter? It struck me as more "Say, you guys are German -- how do YOU think I should get rid of all the Jews?" That's why I imagine all the German officials just looking at this piece of paper, just kind of :eek:You managed to hit the nail on the head.
http://www.itv.ch/images/hammer.jpg

thats irans stated position on the subject

but keep telling yourself they are holocaust denyers :rolleyes:
Maybe you need to keep up with the news. Amadinejad is on record multiple times as denying the Holocaust. This is HIS position, not necessarily that of the entire government of Iran, but he is its public face and its mouthpiece, and his speeches are like dramatic recitations of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Apparently, this does not bother the rest of the government, even if they don't agree with it as a point of fact. In broadcast speeches, Amadinejad says the Holocaust is a lie, that it never happened, that Jews are the enemy out destroy all of Islam and every Muslim, etc. This rhetoric seems to sell well enough to the voting base in Iran -- just like calling stem cell research "murder" sells with Bush's hardcore base.

Maybe you need to keep up with the news. Amadinejad is on record multiple times as denying the Holocaust. This is HIS position, not necessarily that of the entire government of Iran, but he is its public face and its mouthpiece, and his speeches are like dramatic recitations of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Apparently, this does not bother the rest of the government, even if they don't agree with it as a point of fact. In broadcast speeches, Amadinejad says the Holocaust is a lie, that it never happened, that Jews are the enemy out destroy all of Islam and every Muslim, etc. This rhetoric seems to sell well enough to the voting base in Iran -- just like calling stem cell research "murder" sells with Bush's hardcore base.

source?

his position may be distasteful, but never have i heard him say the nazis did not commit the acts they did

It seems that President Ahmadinejad of Iran has sought help on the question of the "Zionists." His ten page letter addresses the issues of "Zionism" and "solutions to the Palestinian conflict." It asks for specific help from ... Germany.
Yes, Ahmadinejad has sent a letter to the German chancellor Angela Merkel asking for help in combatting "Zionism":
Deutsche Welle (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2105143,00.html?maca=en-tagesschau_englisch-335-rdf-mp)
CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/21/iran.letter.ap/index.html)

This throws up some serious questions about Ahmadinejad. Why does he believe that Germany is a bastion of anti-semitism? Is this a problem with his education or unwillingness to trust more reliable sources of information? Did he not understand the controversy of allowing him to enter the country should he want to see one of Iran's games during the world cup?
You're just now discovering he's a raving lunatic??? :eek:

source?

his position may be distasteful, but never have i heard him say the nazis did not commit the acts they didHere you go:
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, has again caused international outcry by repeating his view that the Holocaust was a myth.Source (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/60AE1720-F333-4869-974D-3B69283105BF.htm)

Here you go:
Source (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/60AE1720-F333-4869-974D-3B69283105BF.htm)

is that what he said?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

It seems that President Ahmadinejad of Iran has sought help on the question of the "Zionists." His ten page letter addresses the issues of "Zionism" and "solutions to the Palestinian conflict." It asks for specific help from ... Germany.
Yes, Ahmadinejad has sent a letter to the German chancellor Angela Merkel asking for help in combatting "Zionism":
Deutsche Welle (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2105143,00.html?maca=en-tagesschau_englisch-335-rdf-mp)
CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/21/iran.letter.ap/index.html)

This throws up some serious questions about Ahmadinejad. Why does he believe that Germany is a bastion of anti-semitism? Is this a problem with his education or unwillingness to trust more reliable sources of information? Did he not understand the controversy of allowing him to enter the country should he want to see one of Iran's games during the world cup?


What's he want blueprints for a death camp and a guide to the final solution ?

is that what he said?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm
That's pretty funny, because I hardly expect Al Jazeera to be too favorable towards the position of the West. Let's see what your thing says:
CNN (2005-12-15) renders as follows: "If you have burned the Jews why don't you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel. Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime?"Emphasis theirs.
The premise of that bolding is that this proves that he doesn't disbelieve the holocaust. Now let me show you the parts that should also receive attention:
CNN (2005-12-15) renders as follows: "If you have burned the Jews why don't you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel. Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime?"Emphasis mine.
Or let's look at the Iranian press release:
If the Europeans are telling the truth in their claim that they have killed six million Jews in the Holocaust during the World War II - which seems they are right in their claim because they insist on it and arrest and imprison those who oppose it, why the Palestinian nation should pay for the crime.Emphasis mine.
That does not sound like someone that believes there was a Holocaust to the extent that it is agreed upon today.

i disagree, he is clearly stating that the holocaust happened and that the palestinan people are suffering becase european guilt prevents them from reigning israel in.

you claimed he denyed the holocaust happned and thats ludicrous. now you are saying he isnt denying it enough?

the propaganda war is in full swing

Now let's take a look at how he talks without a website to reinterpret his words in a favorable manner:
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned countries or leaders who have taken measures to acknowledge the Zionist regime under pressure or due to lack of sound understanding that they will be confronted with the wrath of the Islamic ummah and will forever be disgraced.
He [Ahmadinejad] further expressed his firm belief that the new wave of confrontations generated in Palestine and the growing turmoil in the Islamic world would in no time wipe Israel away.
Ahmadinejad pointed to the meeting dubbed "A World Without Zionism" and criticized those sowing the seed of disappointment in materializing such a goal and attempting to undermine the world of Islam. He added that a world without the US and Israel would be possible.
Source (http://www.president.ir/eng/ahmadinejad/cronicnews/1384/08/4/index-e.htm#b3)

Now let's take a look at how he talks without a website to reinterpret his words in a favorable manner:



Source (http://www.president.ir/eng/ahmadinejad/cronicnews/1384/08/4/index-e.htm#b3)


he's more likely to find that world without iranians named Ahmadinejad is more likely ..and Irans imperial ambitions to go along with it .

i disagree, he is clearly stating that the holocaust happened and that the palestinan people are suffering becase european guilt prevents them from reigning israel in. No, he is clearly questioning whether it happened. Nowhere does he clearly state that it happened.

you claimed he denyed the holocaust happned and thats ludicrous. now you are saying he isnt denying it enough? Why is it ludicrous? Find me a quote from him where he refers to the Holocaust without asking a rhetorical question.
the propaganda war is in full swingGood thing you already picked sides.

No, he is clearly questioning whether it happened. Nowhere does he clearly state that it happened.

Why is it ludicrous? Find me a quote from him where he refers to the Holocaust without asking a rhetorical question.
Good thing you already picked sides.

you claimed he denyed the holocaust took place and are now backing out of that claim. he explicitly and clealy refers to the holocaust happening and what he claims is israels misuse of that event for political capital

Good thing you already picked sides.

what sort of crap is this? there is plenty of stick to beat iran with without resorting to dishonest mud slinging.

im questioning bullshit, that makes me on irans side? :p

Well done, Laerod. I was just going to cite CNN, NBC, and the BBC, but Al-Jahzeera and an Iranian state website beat them to hell. :D

you claimed he denyed the holocaust took place and are now backing out of that claim. he explicitly and clealy refers to the holocaust happening and what he claims is israels misuse of that event for political capital
You seem to be deliberately misreading the quoted sources in order to claim the man did not say something he not only has said, often, but which he deliberately uses to build his own political capital within Iran.

The proof has been put before you. If you refuse to believe, there is little anyone else can do.

what sort of crap is this? there is plenty of stick to beat iran with without resorting to dishonest mud slinging.

im questioning bullshit, that makes me on irans side? :p
I'm not saying you are on Iran's side, but you have yet to show how any of this is bullshit. Not only has Amenadinejad made these statements, but he is not in the least bit defensive about them. Why should you be ashamed of something he is not?

Also, if, as you say, there is plenty of stick to beat Iran with, what would motivate people to make up this about him? I'm not on Israel's side necessarily, either, but neither am I in the business of denying reality. Amenadinejad uses conflict with Israel and the Jews as a scapegoat hook on which to hang Iranian nationalism in his rabble-rousing speeches, and denying the Holocaust is part of that tactic. Deal with it.

Really? What things could psycho cannibal serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer have said about Germany to make you want to go out on a date with him?

Observe:

Ahmadinejad: No, I have a question for you. What kind of a role did today's youth play in World War II?

SPIEGEL: None.

Ahmadinejad: Why should they have feelings of guilt toward Zionists? Why should the costs of the Zionists be paid out of their pockets? If people committed crimes in the past, then they would have to have been tried 60 years ago. End of story! Why must the German people be humiliated today because a group of people committed crimes in the name of the Germans during the course of history?

SPIEGEL: The German people today can't do anything about it. But there is a sort of collective shame for those deeds done in the German name by our fathers or grandfathers.

Ahmadinejad: How can a person who wasn't even alive at the time be held legally responsible?

SPIEGEL: Not legally but morally.

Ahmadinejad: Why is such a burden heaped on the German people? The German people of today bear no guilt. Why are the German people not permitted the right to defend themselves? Why are the crimes of one group emphasized so greatly, instead of highlighting the great German cultural heritage? Why should the Germans not have the right to express their opinion freely?

SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we are well aware that German history is not made up of only the 12 years of the Third Reich. Nevertheless, we have to accept that horrible crimes have been committed in the German name. We also own up to this, and it is a great achievement of the Germans in post-war history that they have grappled critically with their past.

Ahmadinejad: Are you also prepared to tell that to the German people?

SPIEGEL: Oh yes, we do that.

Ahmadinejad: Then would you also permit an impartial group to ask the German people whether it shares your opinion? No people accepts its own humiliation.

SPIEGEL: All questions are allowed in our country. But of course there are right-wing radicals in Germany who are not only anti-Semitic, but xenophobic as well, and we do indeed consider them a threat.

Ahmadinejad: Let me ask you one thing: How much longer can this go on? How much longer do you think the German people have to accept being taken hostage by the Zionists? When will that end - in 20, 50, 1,000 years?

SPIEGEL: We can only speak for ourselves. DER SPIEGEL is nobody's hostage; SPIEGEL does not deal only with Germany's past and the Germans' crimes. We're not Israel's uncritical ally in the Palestian conflict. But we want to make one thing very clear: We are critical, we are independent, but we won't simply stand by without protest when the existential right of the state of Israel, where many Holocaust survivors live, is being questioned.

you claimed he denyed the holocaust took place and are now backing out of that claim. he explicitly and clealy refers to the holocaust happening and what he claims is israels misuse of that event for political capitalIf he so clearly and explicitely refers to the holocaust happening, why don't you provide a quote from him where he does?

what sort of crap is this? there is plenty of stick to beat iran with without resorting to dishonest mud slinging.

im questioning bullshit, that makes me on irans side? :pMudslinging Iran? :rolleyes:
Where do I imply that Iran is country of anti-semitic holocaust deniers? The rest of the government openly acknowledges the Holocaust in an attempt to defuse Ahmadinejad's statements. I'm arguing that Ahmadinejad is indeed a revisionist that either flat out denies it ever happened, or that it happened to the extent that is known. That makes him a holocaust denier:
Holocaust denial (commonly called Holocaust revisionism by its supporters) is the belief that the Holocaust did not occur as it is described by mainstream historiography.Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial)

What makes you on Iran's side? Never said that. Just that you look like you've picked a side and are willing to stay on it no matter what you're shown.

Your arguments sound similar to those of the Mullahs trying to reinterpret Ahmadinejad's statements in a favorable manner, but that doesn't mean you're "on Iran's side", if that's what you think I mean.

Observe:Wow. He's got just as little a clue about Germany as you do...

If he so clearly and explicitely refers to the holocaust happening, why don't you provide a quote from him where he does?

Mudslinging Iran? :rolleyes:
Where do I imply that Iran is country of anti-semitic holocaust deniers? The rest of the government openly acknowledges the Holocaust in an attempt to defuse Ahmadinejad's statements. I'm arguing that Ahmadinejad is indeed a revisionist that either flat out denies it ever happened, or that it happened to the extent that is known. That makes him a holocaust denier:
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial)

What makes you on Iran's side? Never said that. Just that you look like you've picked a side and are willing to stay on it no matter what you're shown.

Your arguments sound similar to those of the Mullahs trying to reinterpret Ahmadinejad's statements in a favorable manner, but that doesn't mean you're "on Iran's side", if that's what you think I mean.

you are changing the golaposts

you say this

The holocaust hardly took place in the state of Israel. Considering how he's dealt with the issue in the past, I would consider the possiblity that it's profound anti-semitism is much more likely than not. Anti-Israel is one thing, but the denying the Holocaust has little to do with being anti-Israeli.


and then


Mudslinging Iran? :rolleyes:
Where do I imply that Iran is country of anti-semitic holocaust deniers?.

i am mearly pointing out the intellectual dishonesty of claiming he supported and denyed the holocaust simultatiously and how the holocaust denial badge is essentially godwin here.

the mans opinions may be off centre but attack what he actually said, and nowhere does he deny 8m people were mudered by the nazis. disagreeing with you does not equate to holocaust denial no matter how loud you shout

you are changing the golaposts And you are dodging. Why can't you provide a quote where he clearly acknowledges the Holocaust?

you say this
The holocaust hardly took place in the state of Israel. Considering how he's dealt with the issue in the past, I would consider the possiblity that it's profound anti-semitism is much more likely than not. Anti-Israel is one thing, but the denying the Holocaust has little to do with being anti-Israeli.
Notice the bold word? Explain to me how the above contradicts the below:
and then
Mudslinging Iran? :rolleyes:
Where do I imply that Iran is country of anti-semitic holocaust deniers?.

i am mearly pointing out the intellectual dishonesty of claiming he supported and denyed the holocaust simultatiously and how the holocaust denial badge is essentially godwin here.WHere do I say that he supported the holocaust? All we know from the letter is that he has made comments about it that aren't acceptable by German standards. That doesn't in any way mean he acknowledges it. As for the label Holocaust denier, maybe you should read the sourced article. He fits the description rather well.
the mans opinions may be off centre but attack what he actually said, and nowhere does he deny 8m people were mudered by the nazis. disagreeing with you does not equate to holocaust denial no matter how loud you shoutHe considers the whole thing to be a zionist conspiracy, alleging that a myth was created to be used by Israel. What did he mean by myth? Nowhere does he state that anyone was murdered by the Nazis either, he always poses it as a question. The only ones that I've heard explicitely say that no one ever denied it are other Iranian officials.

Give me a quote from him where he explicitely states that the holocaust happened and/or that it wasn't exxagerated.

And you are dodging. Why can't you provide a quote where he clearly acknowledges the Holocaust?

Notice the bold word? Explain to me how the above contradicts the below:


WHere do I say that he supported the holocaust? All we know from the letter is that he has made comments about it that aren't acceptable by German standards. That doesn't in any way mean he acknowledges it. As for the label Holocaust denier, maybe you should read the sourced article. He fits the description rather well.
He considers the whole thing to be a zionist conspiracy, alleging that a myth was created to be used by Israel. What did he mean by myth? Nowhere does he state that anyone was murdered by the Nazis either, he always poses it as a question. The only ones that I've heard explicitely say that no one ever denied it are other Iranian officials.

Give me a quote from him where he explicitely states that the holocaust happened and/or that it wasn't exxagerated.
#good article on what he actually said here (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm")

he said there was a 'mythology' surrounding the holocaust, in the sense isreal/zionists are manipulating the sympathy and guilt towords the jewish people for short term politicial gain. he never called the holocaust 'a' myth.

There again we find the quotation already rendered by n24: "In the name of the Holocaust they created a myth." We can see that this is completely different from what is published by e.g. the DPA - the massacre against the Jews is a fairy-tale. What Ahmadinejad does is not denying the Holocaust. No! It is dealing out criticism against the mendacity of the imperialistic powers who use the Holocaust to muzzle critical voices and to achieve advantages concerning the legitimization of a planned war. This is criticism against the exploitation of the Holocaust.

does the very fact he is referring to the holocaust as an event with the germans not matter? i find most of what he says to be distasteful, but its not holocaust denial.

i find it boring that everyone the US has a problem with gets compared to hitler directly or indirectly.

#good article on what he actually said here (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm")

he said there was a 'mythology' surrounding the holocaust, in the sense isreal/zionists are manipulating the sympathy and guilt towords the jewish people for short term politicial gain. he never called the holocaust 'a' myth.

There again we find the quotation already rendered by n24: "In the name of the Holocaust they created a myth." We can see that this is completely different from what is published by e.g. the DPA - the massacre against the Jews is a fairy-tale. What Ahmadinejad does is not denying the Holocaust. No! It is dealing out criticism against the mendacity of the imperialistic powers who use the Holocaust to muzzle critical voices and to achieve advantages concerning the legitimization of a planned war. This is criticism against the exploitation of the Holocaust.

does the very fact he is referring to the holocaust as an event with the germans not matter? i find most of what he says to be distasteful, but its not holocaust denial.

i find it boring that everyone the US has a problem with gets compared to hitler directly or indirectly.
if he isn't holocust denial why he orginized holocust deniers global meeting as part of his "world without zionism" happening? why he try to send iranian group to the death camps in poland, in order to find "the real story of the holocust"?
it is unarguable that he is holocust denier.

if he isn't holocust denial why he orginized holocust deniers global meeting as part of his "world without zionism" happening? why he try to send iranian group to the death camps in poland, in order to find "the real story of the holocust"?
it is unarguable that he is holocust denier.

that doesnt even make sense. he acknowleges the holocaust happened and sends people to study it which makes him claim that the event he is investigating didn't happen? :confused:

anti-zionism equates with holocaust denial? since when?

that doesnt even make sense. he acknowleges the holocaust happened and sends people to study it which makes him claim that the event he is investigating didn't happen? :confused:

anti-zionism equates with holocaust denial? since when?



Ever since people like you started using holocaust denial as a shield to get away from getting punished for anti-semitism masked as anti-zionism.

#good article on what he actually said here (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm")You posted that before, and I pointed out that they don't stress contradicting evidence enough.
he said there was a 'mythology' surrounding the holocaust, in the sense isreal/zionists are manipulating the sympathy and guilt towords the jewish people for short term politicial gain. he never called the holocaust 'a' myth.And now guess what that makes him:
In addition, most Holocaust denial implies, or openly states, that the current mainstream understanding of the Holocaust is the result of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy created to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples.Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial)

There again we find the quotation already rendered by n24: "In the name of the Holocaust they created a myth." We can see that this is completely different from what is published by e.g. the DPA - the massacre against the Jews is a fairy-tale. What Ahmadinejad does is not denying the Holocaust. No! It is dealing out criticism against the mendacity of the imperialistic powers who use the Holocaust to muzzle critical voices and to achieve advantages concerning the legitimization of a planned war. This is criticism against the exploitation of the Holocaust.

does the very fact he is referring to the holocaust as an event with the germans not matter? i find most of what he says to be distasteful, but its not holocaust denial. After reading what they wrote, I have my doubts as to whether they have a good grasp on what he was thinking. As to why, I have stated so before.

i find it boring that everyone the US has a problem with gets compared to hitler directly or indirectly.Strawman. My perspective on this stems from how his speech comes across in Germany, and how his letter is confirming his denial of either the entire or the extent of the holocaust. The US has nothing to do with this.

is that ANTI-SEMETIC or anti Israeli.

there is profound difference


That is not profound at all,

that is a distinction without a difference.

Just goes to show what poor chancellors Germany usually elects... *sigh


Would I be guilty of German bashing if I pointed out that NO decent country ( kidding! ) would have considered electing a Kanzler as sleazy as Schroeder? He could have been the role model for our very own TwoJags Prescott.

Kohl was a nice bloke. Schmidt was a splendid fellow.

Kohl was a nice bloke. A corrupt man that only managed to stay in power for a fourth term by swindling East Germans into voting for him? :rolleyes:

A corrupt man that only managed to stay in power for a fourth term by swindling East Germans into voting for him? :rolleyes:


How do you mean 'swindle'?

You can't avoid Ate, Eris or Nemesis.

Unification was simply Ate, and all objection to it is therefore impious.

that doesnt even make sense. he acknowleges the holocaust happened and sends people to study it which makes him claim that the event he is investigating didn't happen? :confused: investigation which probably lead to the conclusion about "there wasn't 6 milion, but only some dosens of thousands" claim. that why poland goverment refused let it happened.
denial of the holocust size=denial of holocust by the definition of most of the world.
anti-zionism equates with holocaust denial? since when?he connect it by himself when he orginize this events together.
and since the one is strenghen the other, the equation is pretty clear.

How do you mean 'swindle'?

You can't avoid Ate, Eris or Nemesis.

Unification was simply Ate, and all objection to it is therefore impious.Abusing the image of the Golden West to get the East Germans to believe he could perform miracles is what I mean by swindle.

Abusing the image of the Golden West to get the East Germans to believe he could perform miracles is what I mean by swindle.


*shrug*

As long as Destiny is obeyed, in the positive sense, I don't care a great deal.

Nothing was so impious as the objections raised by Lafontaine and that lot.

What was also weird - but that was another period - was seeing a good man as Fischer playing second string to the false first fiddle of Gerhard I-need-a-new-wife-for-my-new-post Schroeder.

*shrug*

As long as Destiny is obeyed, in the positive sense, I don't care a great deal.

Nothing was so impious as the objections raised by Lafontaine and that lot.

What was also weird - but that was another period - was seeing a good man as Fischer playing second string to the false first fiddle of Gerhard I-need-a-new-wife-for-my-new-post Schroeder.Just because I dislike Kohl doesn't mean I like Lafontaine.

Just because I dislike Kohl doesn't mean I like Lafontaine.


Please forgive the 'aloofness' of a distant observer.
I have a natural dislike of those... worldly... leaders, and their behaviour makes The Others look ever so good.

Ever since people like you started using holocaust denial as a shield to get away from getting punished for anti-semitism masked as anti-zionism.

am i being called anti-semetic?

i dont deny the holocaust, im questioning whether Ahmadinejad actually did.

be very careful here....

Would I be guilty of German bashing if I pointed out that NO decent country ( kidding! ) would have considered electing a Kanzler as sleazy as Schroeder? He could have been the role model for our very own TwoJags Prescott.

Kohl was a nice bloke. Schmidt was a splendid fellow.

Nah, I'd totally agree with Schroeder having a somewhat... filthy air around him. That guy was a salesman through and through.
Kohl suffered from dellusions of grandeur nad had the unfortunate ambition of making history, fast. Old men should stay out of politics.

Schmidt was ok, but the last really outstanding chancellor we had was Brandt.

*shrug*

As long as Destiny is obeyed, in the positive sense, I don't care a great deal.

Nothing was so impious as the objections raised by Lafontaine and that lot.


Kohl rushed the unification needlessly. Sure you can claim that it was a free election in East Germany, but how free is an election if the people who elect aren't sufficiently informed on what they vote? They sold out... many in the East will tell you that. It happened, the situation is what it is now, but after living in East Germany for 4 years I can honestly tell you that this is an area that lost its identity and a good part of its history by being swallowed up into West Germany.

Not saying it shouldn't have happened, I'm just saying it happened too fast, there was no reason why the unification couldn't have waited another year or two, until everyone had a clearer picture of the whole situation and the implications of unifying two countries.
And the reason it happened so fast was for the most part Kohl's ambition to be remembered as the "Einheitskanzler"...

Hey guys I have been doing a little reading on the Subject of Islamic sects. The Shiites hate the Sunnis more than any other group of people in the world. There is a lot of bad blood between the the two groups. Remember the sacking of Baghdad by the mongolians which ended in the general massacre of the city's entire population. Guess who was spared? The Shiites because they invited the mongolians to destroy the Sunni Abbassid Caliphate. So I think anything coming out of Iran must be taken with a serious load of salt, because I believe that the Shiites would much rather enjoy the destruction of the Sunnis - who they view as their mortal enemies- than Israel.

this entire thread is based on one very dubious assumption:

criticism of israel and its actions is anti-semetic.

bullshit it is.exactamente.

Hey guys I have been doing a little reading on the Subject of Islamic sects. The Shiites hate the Sunnis more than any other group of people in the world. There is a lot of bad blood between the the two groups. Remember the sacking of Baghdad by the mongolians which ended in the general massacre of the city's entire population. Guess who was spared? The Shiites because they invited the mongolians to destroy the Sunni Abbassid Caliphate. So I think anything coming out of Iran must be taken with a serious load of salt, because I believe that the Shiites would much rather enjoy the destruction of the Sunnis - who they view as their mortal enemies- than Israel.
right. but the fact they hate many groups and not only USA and israel, strengthen their threat to the world, and encourage everyone to not let them get nukes.

exactamente.What? The statement about the basis of the thread or that about criticism of Israel being equal to anti-semitism as being bullshit? Both are not accurate; can you guess which?

Hey guys I have been doing a little reading on the Subject of Islamic sects. The Shiites hate the Sunnis more than any other group of people in the world. There is a lot of bad blood between the the two groups. Remember the sacking of Baghdad by the mongolians which ended in the general massacre of the city's entire population. Guess who was spared? The Shiites because they invited the mongolians to destroy the Sunni Abbassid Caliphate. So I think anything coming out of Iran must be taken with a serious load of salt, because I believe that the Shiites would much rather enjoy the destruction of the Sunnis - who they view as their mortal enemies- than Israel.The conclusion of that is not quite accurate though. You see, while sunnis and shiites don't get along, they do hate the "infidels" that hold Jerusalem more than eachother. HAMAS is a sunni group, while Hezbullah is shiite. Israel is the common enemy that all radical muslims have, whether shia or sunni.

The conclusion of that is not quite accurate though. You see, while sunnis and shiites don't get along, they do hate the "infidels" that hold Jerusalem more than eachother. HAMAS is a sunni group, while Hezbullah is shiite. Israel is the common enemy that all radical muslims have, whether shia or sunni.


That isn't necessarily all that clear.

Wahhabis, to name but one sect, are of the belief that Shiites are in fact, Jews. More 'enlightened' Foundamentalists merely consider 'em heretics.

( source: the trouble with islam. )

am i being called anti-semetic?

i dont deny the holocaust, im questioning whether Ahmadinejad actually did.

be very careful here....


Yes, I call you exactly that.

Your question what Ahmad the bathmat said was answered by Laerod ages ago.

I am not merely calling you an antisemite, I am calling you a disenginuous and dishonest piece of work.

Kohl rushed the unification needlessly. Sure you can claim that it was a free election in East Germany, but how free is an election if the people who elect aren't sufficiently informed on what they vote? They sold out... many in the East will tell you that. It happened, the situation is what it is now, but after living in East Germany for 4 years I can honestly tell you that this is an area that lost its identity and a good part of its history by being swallowed up into West Germany.

Not saying it shouldn't have happened, I'm just saying it happened too fast, there was no reason why the unification couldn't have waited another year or two, until everyone had a clearer picture of the whole situation and the implications of unifying two countries.
And the reason it happened so fast was for the most part Kohl's ambition to be remembered as the "Einheitskanzler"...


I must say that I cannot see the good of delaying the Einheit at all.

Unless there be merit in waiting till the last Ossie had migrated to the BRD.

Free elections?
Without delay.
There can be no such thing as legitimate public authority without them.
You may argue that waiting might make for freeer elections, but that still leaves in the meanwhile an illegitimate regime in existence.

Tangentially: which is why I am utterly loathing America's tolerance to such countries as Saudi Arabia: no government that has no legitimacy through the Electoral Process has the right to exist in the first place.

Yes, I call you exactly that.

Your question what Ahmad the bathmat said was answered by Laerod ages ago.

I am not merely calling you an antisemite, I am calling you a disenginuous and dishonest piece of work.

you are way out of line here.

i have never said Ahmadinejad was right or a pleasant piece of work. i dont like the man or what he is trying to achieve. but i believe in playing the ball, ie, lets go after his actual faults without contriving an issue thats neither true nor relevant.

i asked people to back up throwaway comments such as 'holocaust denyer', which i dont believe they have done. i believe that the (dubious) comments made by him (and there is a fundamental semantic difference between 'mythology surrounding', what he actually said, and 'a myth', what he was quoted as saying). learod got caught up in that Ahmadinejad didnt criticise the holocuast enough, a different proposition to denying the event.

the man never stops referring to the holocaust and israels 'abuse' of it. but anyone who questions why these allegations of holocaust denial/anti jewish sentiment surface (remember the yellow star story that turned out to be bull?) regularly is anti-semetic?

it comes down to the most basic form of intellectual vandalism and bullying from the likes of bogmarsh. to call anyone anti-semetic is a serious thing, especially someone with my background. and just for asking people to stop using the label 'holocaust deniers' on those who arent.

you are at least 10 yards offside and i want it retracted. im not taking any lectures from a man whose anti-arab sentiment is so strong he wants the islamic faith banned.

This throws up some serious questions about Ahmadinejad. Why does he believe that Germany is a bastion of anti-semitism? Is this a problem with his education or unwillingness to trust more reliable sources of information? Did he not understand the controversy of allowing him to enter the country should he want to see one of Iran's games during the world cup?

Did Ahmadinejad even state anything related to what you assume about him here? Can the letter be found anywhere (in English)?

Ahmadinejad has already brought up an important question: If the Germans committed these atrocities against the Jewish people, why is Palestine being punished? This is probably why he is trying to get Germany involved.

What? The statement about the basis of the thread or that about criticism of Israel being equal to anti-semitism as being bullshit? Both are not accurate; can you guess which?criticism-of-Israel = anti-semitism.

that is the bullshit.

i asked people to back up throwaway comments such as 'holocaust denyer', which i dont believe they have done. i believe that the (dubious) comments made by him (and there is a fundamental semantic difference between 'mythology surrounding', what he actually said, and 'a myth', what he was quoted as saying). learod got caught up in that Ahmadinejad didnt criticise the holocuast enough, a different proposition to denying the event.Actually, I'm getting caught up on the fact that whenever he mentions it, he either refers to it in the context of a myth or questions whether it really happened. The label "holocaust denier" fits:
Holocaust denial refers to the claims of a small group of amateur and academic historians who argue that the Holocaust, as known to history, is either highly exaggerated or otherwise completely falsified.He expressly states that "they have fabricated a legend under the name Massacre of the Jews..."
The very least that statement means is that he believes it's been exaggerated.

the man never stops referring to the holocaust and israels 'abuse' of it. That is exactly what makes him fit the title.

Actually, I'm getting caught up on the fact that whenever he mentions it, he either refers to it in the context of a myth or questions whether it really happened. The label "holocaust denier" fits:
He expressly states that "they have fabricated a legend under the name Massacre of the Jews..."
The very least that statement means is that he believes it's been exaggerated.

That is exactly what makes him fit the title.

People covering Ahmanijad's ass will keep saying that every statement he makes is intentionally mistranslated.

If it weren't for diplomatic immunity, I believe his statements on TV would have been enough to get the average German arrested in Germany for holocaust denial.

It seems that President Ahmadinejad of Iran has sought help on the question of the "Zionists." His ten page letter addresses the issues of "Zionism" and "solutions to the Palestinian conflict." It asks for specific help from ... Germany.
Yes, Ahmadinejad has sent a letter to the German chancellor Angela Merkel asking for help in combatting "Zionism":
Deutsche Welle (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2105143,00.html?maca=en-tagesschau_englisch-335-rdf-mp)
CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/21/iran.letter.ap/index.html)

This throws up some serious questions about Ahmadinejad. Why does he believe that Germany is a bastion of anti-semitism? Is this a problem with his education or unwillingness to trust more reliable sources of information? Did he not understand the controversy of allowing him to enter the country should he want to see one of Iran's games during the world cup?

I think Merkel will send Bush to smooth Ahmadinejad! I hear he is excellent at giving back rubs.

Luckily, he's "just a figurehead". The mullahs are the ones with the real power. Maybe they made sure they have a lunatic in office because he's easier to control than someone capable of rational decisions.
The mullahs in power agree with him on the whole Jews and the Holocaust thing.

Actually, I'm getting caught up on the fact that whenever he mentions it, he either refers to it in the context of a myth or questions whether it really happened. The label "holocaust denier" fits:
He expressly states that "they have fabricated a legend under the name Massacre of the Jews..."
The very least that statement means is that he believes it's been exaggerated.

That is exactly what makes him fit the title.

i disagree, i think he means israel has abused the holocaust for political ends, i dont see any evidence that he denyed the event itself took place. i believe the phrase used was 'mythology surrounding the holocaust', which is substantivly different to calling it 'a myth'.

but we could go on and on in this circle.

i notice i have had no response from bogmarsh to his little outburst....

The mullahs in power agree with him on the whole Jews and the Holocaust thing.While doing my research on his statements, I stumbled across one of the other leaders reinterpreting Ahmadinejad's words for him. Maybe they agree personally, but they publicly state otherwise.
i disagree, i think he means israel has abused the holocaust for political ends, i dont see any evidence that he denyed the event itself took place. i believe the phrase used was 'mythology surrounding the holocaust', which is substantivly different to calling it 'a myth'.

but we could go on and on in this circle. I'm interested in how you still haven't noticed that you don't need to flat out deny the holocaust to legitimately be labelled a holocaust denier. It's just like the word "paedophiles" doesn't exclusively refer to "good friends of children."

i disagree, i think he means israel has abused the holocaust for political ends, i dont see any evidence that he denyed the event itself took place. i believe the phrase used was 'mythology surrounding the holocaust', which is substantivly different to calling it 'a myth'.
Nonsense.

IF his various remarks had been to the effect that "I think that Israel unjustifiably uses the Holocaust to try to justify its political actions today, and I wish they would stop doing that so we could deal with them more freely" you might have a hope of a point here, IF you could show that Israel actually does such a thing.

But Amenadinejad is on record as calling for the destruction of Israel as a country. He wants to see it "pushed into the sea," wiped off the map. He blames the Jews for many of the Mid-East's problems. And, your denials notwithstanding he HAS, in fact, denied that the Holocaust happened, many times, as quoted here.

He does not use the rhetoric of a politician expressing a complaint against an unreasonable opponent. He uses the rhetoric of a demogogue seeking to rouse the rabble to unite in hatred against a scapegoated group of people.

Regardless of one's personal opinions of Israel, its policies, or of the Jews, there is no way to make Amenadinejad's remarks sound like anything but hostile, anti-semitic, verbal attacks.

but we could go on and on in this circle.

With you as a dance partner, yes, we certainly could.

I've been bombarded lately by hundreds of these damned e-mails. People "from" Germany, Iraq, Benin, Vietnam, everywhere.


I've been reporting spam more today, than I've posted in the last week!!!!