NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been arguing the viewpoint that the Lebanese people don't deserve the current punishment, because they (unlike the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank) aren't big fans of Hezbollah.

Many people here seem to disagree and prefer to throw them all into one pot.

So I have this article here, which attempts to analyse what the Lebanese think of Hezbollah, especially now that Israel is destroying their country.

Tell me what you think.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,427754,00.html
Fears of Increasing Hezbollah's Popularity
By Ulrike Putz in Beirut

Tens of thousands march through the streets waving the light yellow Hezbollah flag. They carry the picture of the group's leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, chant the slogans of the self-professed "Party of God" and burn Israeli flags. One thing is clear whenever such images are shown on television: They're not from Lebanon. They're from Tehran or Damascus, where enthusiasm for the Shiite militia compels crowds of supporters to take to the streets.

The fact that one doesn't see such images coming out of Lebanon doesn't just mean that the Lebanese are sitting at home, condemned to passivity by the danger that the thundering sound of bomb explosions reminds them of every couple of hours. Unlike some nations in the Middle East, the Lebanese are not united in their support for Hezbollah.

Lebanese society is deeply divided over the activities of the group based in the south of the country: Some view the Shiite militia as heroic; others despise it for bringing war to Lebanon. Understanding this state of affairs would require going far back in history in order to grasp what millennia of foreign rule, vibrant trading with friend and foe alike and a barbaric civil war, during which frequently shifting alliances were followed by betrayal and bloodshed, have left behind in the country's collective memory.

"Lebanon is a big lie, but a sweet lie," Ziad Rahbani, himself Lebanese and one of the Arab world's most famous musicians, once said. It's a lie that allows everyone to get along with everyone else, as long as no gunshots are fired, business is good and the sun keeps shining -- a lie that's now falling apart.

About 40 percent of Lebanese are Shiites, another 30 percent are Sunnis. The rest of the population consists of Christians of various denominations. Many of these Christians were on the Israeli side during the civil war, because the Israelis promised to secure the hegemony of the Christian upper class. But it would be too simple to assume that the Shiites are therefore supporters of Hezbollah, the Sunnis neutral and the Christians strictly opposed to the "Party of God."

"Even before the present escalation of the conflict, about 60 percent of the population already supported some of Hezbollah's demands," says Amal Saad-Ghorayeb, a professor of political science at the American University of Beirut and author of the book "Hizbu'llah -- Politics and Religion," the standard work on the Shiite militia. The radical Islamists won sympathy by taking a stand on popular issues that the pro-American government shied away from. Hezbollah's demand that Israel return the occupied territories known as the Sheeba Farms is one that a great many Lebanese would sign their name to.

Religious ideology -- and military discipline

The fate of Samir Kuntar -- a Lebanese man who has been incarcerated in an Israeli prison for 26 years for a terrorist attack and whom Hezbollah wants to exchange for the recently kidnapped Israeli soldiers -- also stirs up strong feelings in Lebanon. Hezbollah was also respected for the fact that it never split or betrayed its original cause -- probably unlike every other party in Lebanon. Thanks to an ideological and religious indoctrination without any ambiguities, the militia is extremely disciplined -- no one has ever heard of renegade activities by radical splinter groups.

Saad-Ghorayeb says it's symptomatic that while Hezbollah's demands were supported by the population, the group never achieved very good electoral results after participating in parliamentary elections for the first time in 1992. "What the people cared about were the issues, not armed struggle against Israel." Saad-Ghorayeb has noticed that during the first days of Israeli attacks on Lebanon even Hezbollah supporters accused the militia of being responsible for the sudden violence.

But after a week of de facto war, the mood is changing: "The army has proven only one thing during the last few days -- that is incapable of reacting." According to Saad-Ghorayeb, this has left the population with the impression that only Hezbollah can protect the Lebanese from Israel. What is more, the Lebanese are accusing their government of having bet on the wrong horse. The Americans -- under whose protective power the government placed itself following the murder of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri in February 2005 -- are perceived as having ruthlessly abandoned the country. "The government has failed -- it's finished," Saad-Ghorayeb says.

The political scientist believes that a protracted conflict will strengthen Hezbollah politically. "The memory of who started the fighting has already faded after just a few days." The bombs that have transformed the southern suburbs of Beirut into an uninhabited crater landscape have caused even life-long political convictions to start to slip. "Today you'll meet Christians who will curse Hezbollah and then ask when the group is finally going to attack Tel Aviv."

Saad-Ghorayeb doesn't want to speculate on what the growing support for the radical Islamist guerrilla will mean for the political future of the country. What is certain, she says, is that, under the present circumstances, it is mainly Iran that can exert a moderating influence on the "Party of God," which it finances -- although Iran also has the option of continuing to provide Hezbollah with weapons by means of shipments that are difficult to trace. Saad-Ghorayeb thinks it's very unlikely that Syria has any influence on Hezbollah. "The USA want to pull Syria into the conflict. That's not just short-sighted, but also dangerous."

Saad-Ghorayeb is concerned the fighting could continue for a long time. Hezbollah has been forced into a corner -- due ironically in part to its own growing popularity. Having presented itself as the representative of a just struggle against the Zionists, Hezbollah's leadership now has to negotiate a cease-fire that brings as many advantages and as little loss of face as possible. "Israel has set the bar for a cease-fire very high -- even though Hezbollah signaled from the start that it was only concerned about the prisoners and possibly the Sheeba Farms, but that it was otherwise prepared to sign a cease-fire."

Now there is talk about the Lebanese army being sent into the borderlands between Israel and Lebanon as a buffer -- something the militia will hardly be able to accept. "Hezbollah can only maintain its negotiating position if it can continue to pose a danger to Israel." Creating a demilitarized zone in the south would therefore be equivalent to defeat for the "Party of God." "The effect would be the same as that of disarming Hezbollah -- that's not something the group can settle for, in part because of its supporters."

So what are the prospects for the coming weeks? "In the medium term, Hezbollah will try to achieve a tacit agreement with Israel to attack only military targets," says Saad-Ghorayeb. She adds that Israel is very concerned that its petrochemical industry could be hit, and that Hezbollah will know how to use this fear to its advantage in negotiations. But it could take a long time before an agreement is reached: "Hard times lie ahead."

Ah, yes..we have talked about this before. And while you're right that the majority of the people dont support Hezbollah and its actions, the fact that the people and the government find it legit and allow it to live, bothers me. Therefore I think that Israel needs to pound the shit out of Lebanon until, the U.N. come in and defend the DMZ between Israel and Lebanon so that Hezbollah cant attack (but I guess they still can with rockets so this suggestion doesnt work), or until the lebanese people and government rise up against hezbollah and eject it from their country.

Lebanon's 39% Christian and 57.9% Muslim; of that the majority of Muslims are Sunnis who definitely don't want an extremist Shia orgainzation with ties to Iran taking over their country. It's obvious that the Lebanese don't deserve this punishment given the demographics of their country and their fear of fundamentalism as a destructive force.

The article seems to be a pretty decent analysis.

Lebanon's 39% Christian and 57.9% Muslim; of that the majority of Muslims are Sunnis who definitely don't want an extremist Shia orgainzation with ties to Iran taking over their country.

No, the majority of the Muslims are Shi'ite.

Ah, yes..we have talked about this before. And while you're right that the majority of the people dont support Hezbollah and its actions, the fact that the people and the government find it legit and allow it to live, bothers me.
Surely this is not the first time people have told you: The Lebanese government had no way of taking out Hezbollah. Ever.

What they did do is enter talks with them to integrate the armed parts into the military, thus getting rid of the militia and keeping only a political party (which didn't get all that many votes).

I ask you, and everyone else who thinks like you: What should the Lebanese have done? And be realistic with it - don't expect the impossible from them.

Surely this is not the first time people have told you: The Lebanese government had no way of taking out Hezbollah. Ever.

What they did do is enter talks with them to integrate the armed parts into the military, thus getting rid of the militia and keeping only a political party (which didn't get all that many votes).

I ask you, and everyone else who thinks like you: What should the Lebanese have done? And be realistic with it - don't expect the impossible from them.

Wasting. Your. Time.

I don't like the train of thought that seems to be behind some of this - that if the majority of Lebanese support Hezbollah, somehow it is legitimate to devastate their country and kill hundreds of people. By the same logic, Hamas could justify its suicide bombings in Israel, or Hezbollah could justify its bombardment of Haifa.

Surely this is not the first time people have told you: The Lebanese government had no way of taking out Hezbollah. Ever.

They could have tried to do so, but the outcome would have been nothing short of a new civil war that would make them ripe for a new incursion by Syria or at the very least the collapse of their fledgling democracy and economic depression.

Asking Lebanon to disarm Hezballah would be like the US asking Afghanistan to take out the Taliban by itself...a total disaster to say the least.

(which didn't get all that many votes).

They hold about a sixth (23 of 128) of the seats in the Lebanese parliament, and did very well electorally in the south.

The article seems to be a pretty decent analysis.
No, the majority of the Muslims are Shi'ite.

Sorry, I mixed them up. Sunnis are the largest group worldwide, but Shia are the majority in Lebanon.

Surely this is not the first time people have told you: The Lebanese government had no way of taking out Hezbollah. Ever.

What they did do is enter talks with them to integrate the armed parts into the military, thus getting rid of the militia and keeping only a political party (which didn't get all that many votes).

I ask you, and everyone else who thinks like you: What should the Lebanese have done? And be realistic with it - don't expect the impossible from them.

Ok, so if Lebanon cant get rid of Hezbollah, Israel will do it for them, simple as that.

I ask you, and everyone else who thinks like you: What should the Lebanese have done? And be realistic with it - don't expect the impossible from them.
Set up a bunch of training programs and train all of the adult civilians in weapon usage, subsidise their armaments, and then eliminate hezbollah.

Ok, so if Lebanon cant get rid of Hezbollah, Israel will do it for them, simple as that.
By pounding the rest of the country apart.

'Tis a great, "Sir! We had to burn down the village to save it!" bit of reasoning.

Set up a bunch of training programs and train all of the adult civilians in weapon usage, subsidise their armaments, and then eliminate hezbollah.
They already tried that. The result was a very long, very, very bloody civil war.

Remember that one?

The part of the article that registers most with me, is this part:

What is more, the Lebanese are accusing their government of having bet on the wrong horse. The Americans -- under whose protective power the government placed itself following the murder of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri in February 2005 -- are perceived as having ruthlessly abandoned the country.
After successfully getting the Syrians to remove their military from Lebanon last year, the US looked at that as a positive sign of change in the Middle East. Unfortunately, this left Lebanon very defenseless, and here is the US cheering on Israel's right to defend themselves as the Israelis crush the fledgling democracy. What kind of message does that deliver to the people of Lebanon? :(

Surely this is not the first time people have told you: The Lebanese government had no way of taking out Hezbollah. Ever.

What they did do is enter talks with them to integrate the armed parts into the military, thus getting rid of the militia and keeping only a political party (which didn't get all that many votes).

I ask you, and everyone else who thinks like you: What should the Lebanese have done? And be realistic with it - don't expect the impossible from them.

The Lebanese gov't should have dispatched their Army to combat Hizballah or atleast done something other than negotiate with them to rid themselves of that cancer (words of Israeli Ambassador to the UN, Dan Gillerman).

Israel won't sit back and let its civilians be rocketed and have their servicemen killed while the Lebanese government gets its head out of its ass.

Blood is on the hands of Hizballah, which had its head quarters in southern Beirut amongst civilians. If Hizballah would have been disarmed and not have orchestrated last weeks cross border raid, we wouldn't be in this situation right now.

You can't negotiate with terrorists.

Ok, so if Lebanon cant get rid of Hezbollah, Israel will do it for them, simple as that.
I guess you will soon be old enough to go over there and help defend the "motherland". It would certainly give you a great opportunity to get rid of some of that pent up hatred and anger?

The part of the article that registers most with me, is this part:


After successfully getting the Syrians to remove their military from Lebanon last year, the US looked at that as a positive sign of change in the Middle East. Unfortunately, this left Lebanon very defenseless, and here is the US cheering on Israel's right to defend themselves as the Israelis crush the fledgling democracy. What kind of message does that deliver to the people of Lebanon? :(


What kind of message is being sent to Israel when you tell them..."suck it up and deal with the dead civilians and soldiers...Hizballah is gonna attack the hell out of you and you aren't allowed to do a damn thing about it."

The Lebanese gov't should have dispatched their Army to combat Hizballah or atleast done something other than negotiate with them to rid themselves of that cancer (words of Israeli Ambassador to the UN, Dan Gillerman).

They couldn't; aside from the fact that the Lebanese army is not prepared or equipped to fight a guerilla war against Hezballah, it is also still divided along sectarian lines in the aftermath of the civil war with a good chunk of its forces supporting the actions of the Hezballah in its fight against Israel. Were they to attack the group's forces in South Lebanon, the army would rapidly collapse in to sectarian violence and it might ultimately lead to a new eruption of civil war between the Christians, Sunni, and Shia.

Even if it didn't, the casualties inflicted in such a guerilla war would be severe and the cost of occupying their own country would be disasterous politically and economically.

I guess you will soon be old enough to go over there and help defend the "motherland". It would certainly give you a great opportunity to get rid of some of that pent up hatred and anger?

The anger is due to AI and others like him being fed up with the rockets and fed up with the cross border raid and fed up with seeing Israeli soldiers and civilians under constant attack from these terrorists.

The Lebanese gov't should have dispatched their Army to combat Hizballah....
...which would have led to either A) another bloody civil war, or B) the Lebanese Army being destryoed. What then?

They couldn't; aside from the fact that the Lebanese army is not prepared or equipped to fight a guerilla war against Hezballah, it is also still divided along sectarian lines in the aftermath of the civil war with a good chunk of its forces supporting the actions of the terror group. Were they to attack Hezballah, the army would collapse in to sectarian violence and it might ultimately lead to a new eruption of civil war between the Christians, Sunni, and Shia.


Sounds like a shitty situation...but Israel will not sit back and let its civilians and soldiers be killed because Lebanon isn't capable of dealin with them. It's not okay when when Lebanese are killed but it's just dandy when the dead are Jews. What is Israel supposed to do.

...which would have led to either A) another bloody civil war, or B) the Lebanese Army being destryoed. What then?

Israel is thinking: do nothing which is sucidal to its own civilian population...or...attack hizballa, rid them from lebanon for good once and for all while trying to mnimize civilian casualties

I think the choice is clear

I guess you will soon be old enough to go over there and help defend the "motherland". It would certainly give you a great opportunity to get rid of some of that pent up hatred and anger?
I most certainly would...if I was Israeli and Israel was my motherland.

But I am American and this is the only country that I would fight for, this is my motherland and my fatherland.

What kind of message is being sent to Israel when you tell them..."suck it up and deal with the dead civilians..."Israel killed civileans first.

By pounding the rest of the country apart.

'Tis a great, "Sir! We had to burn down the village to save it!" bit of reasoning.
Ok, if you dont like my idea, what is yours? (honesty question)

The anger is due to AI and others like him being fed up with the rockets and fed up with the cross border raid and fed up with seeing Israeli soldiers and civilians under constant attack from these terrorists.
As Ocean would say, exactamente. Israel takes these constant terrorist attacks and just turns the other cheek...I agree with Israel that its about time they stopped this shit once and for good.

Israel killed civileans first.

And Hizballah attacked Israel first. Civilian casualties are a connsequence of war, it's terrible. What point were you trying to make?

Israel is thinking: do nothing which is sucidal to its own civilian population...or...attack hizballa, rid them from lebanon for good once and for all while trying to mnimize civilian casualties

I think the choice is clear

Right.

So what you're saying then is, regardless of Lebanon's actions, Israel was inevitably going to invade and attack Lebanon?

Sounds like a shitty situation...but Israel will not sit back and let its civilians and soldiers be killed because Lebanon isn't capable of dealin with them. It's not okay when when Lebanese are killed but it's just dandy when the dead are Jews. What is Israel supposed to do.

Well, Israel is caught between a rock and a hard place. If they do nothing, they give Hezballah and its Iranian backers the perception that Israel is weak and vulnerable to that kind of pressure; if they go all out and try to destroy Hezballah, they run the risk of totally alienating the Lebanese people, giving a propaganda windfall to Hezballah, and destroying the progress towards democracy and economic recovery in Lebanon.

Fortunately, the other states in the region recognize that Hezballah is at fault and that might result in progress on dismantling the group instead of resorting to all-out violence, especially as a means of thwarting Iran; given that Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and the Gulf states are terrified of Iran's attempt to gain power in the region they will be far more conducive to any attempt to check Iran than in the past.

What is Israel supposed to do.achieve Peace.

Ok, so if Lebanon cant get rid of Hezbollah, Israel will do it for them, simple as that.
Which I would be okay with, if there had been any attempt to actually make contact with the Lebanese government and do it together.
As it is, Israel doesn't make a difference anymore between Hezbollah and Lebanon.

They hold about a sixth (23 of 128) of the seats in the Lebanese parliament, and did very well electorally in the south.
Where did you get that? Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Parliament#Results) says they have 14 of 128.

Israel killed civileans first.
Actually, Hezbollah fired the first unguided missiles into Israel at the same moment it captured the two soldiers. Whether or not anyone died isn't really of consequence, they tried to kill civilians.

The Lebanese gov't should have dispatched their Army to combat Hizballah or atleast done something other than negotiate with them to rid themselves of that cancer...
I don't know why your world only consists of fighting and war - but the realistic option was to do the same with Hezbollah as was done with the IRA: Integrate them into the decision making process so they won't have a reason to fight against the decisions, watch them grow more pragmatic and moderate as a result and finally ask them to put away their weapons.

If Hizballah would have been disarmed and not have orchestrated last weeks cross border raid, we wouldn't be in this situation right now.
Again, talks about disarmament were in progress, and Hezbollah put an end to them, leaving the government to stand in the rain.
I will say this again: I am not and have at no point been against Israel fighting Hezbollah. I am against the IDF not making a difference between Hezbollah and the country of Lebanon anymore.
War against Hezbollah? Fine.
War against Lebanon? Not fine.

You can't negotiate with terrorists.
Israel did, and probably will again.

Ah, yes..we have talked about this before. And while you're right that the majority of the people dont support Hezbollah and its actions, the fact that the people and the government find it legit and allow it to live, bothers me. Therefore I think that Israel needs to pound the shit out of Lebanon until, the U.N. come in and defend the DMZ between Israel and Lebanon so that Hezbollah cant attack (but I guess they still can with rockets so this suggestion doesnt work), or until the lebanese people and government rise up against hezbollah and eject it from their country.

good luck getting honest hard working innocent people to rise up against an armed militia of fanatics!
even if they loved the israilis,saying so would sign there own death warrant.

that is what is so vexing.

i believe alot of the "freedom fighters" are no more then blood thirsty evil thugs.
if you are the average lebanese..and you say ..chill out...think you will live to see the next day?

does that excuse the constant bombardment by israel..no..but can you blame them.

the sooner people realise that these so called "freedom fighters" are not noble combatants,throwing off the yoke of the oppressive jews(who did not attack them)the sooner they will realise who the true enemy is.

i have no dog in this fight...but the jews are right on this one.

i exspect more from them with regards to the palistinians...but hezbollah...please....nothing more then people filled with hate,that know no more then war,and miss it!
and are trying to stay politically relevant...nothing more or nothing less...thugs.

i would bet most lebanese would prefer not to attack israel,live in peace,and raise their children..i suspect hezballah does not want that...if not their blind hatred of jews,they just love war...freedom fighters..lol!

Right.

So what you're saying then is, regardless of Lebanon's actions, Israel was inevitably going to invade and attack Lebanon?


It was inevitable for Hizballah to attack Israel again and for the world to remain silent...which would eventually lead to another invasion. So your right to an extent.

So your right to an extent.
Thank you. It was inevitable that, regardless of Lebanese actions against Hezb'allah, Israel was going to invade again.

achieve Peace.


With an organization that was formed in order to destroy Israel and still seeks the destruction of Israel? Good luck..

Thank you. It was inevitable that, regardless of Lebanese actions against Hezb'allah, Israel was going to invade again.


That's not what I said. I said that it was inevitable for Hizballah to attack again..prompting Israeli military action. If the Lebanese gov't would have disarmed Hizballah, Israel would have no need to attack.

achieve Peace.
AMEN!!

Where did you get that? Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Parliament#Results) says they have 14 of 128.

Weird. I got the statistic from Wiki:

After the 2005 elections, Hezbollah held 23 seats (up from eight previously) in the 128-member Lebanese Parliament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Post-Lebanese_election

Anyway, their electoral alliance did win a good quarter of the seats, and most of what I've read indicates that they have pretty solid support about the Shi'ite population, which is after all the largest demographic. Going after them, as you and Vetalia have pointed out, is not a wise course of action for the Lebanese government.

Edit: As'ad AbuKhalil (http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2006/07/so-democracy-is-not-good-after-all.html) on the subject. His analysis of events in Lebanon is interesting, if rather strongly worded of late.

Right.

So what you're saying then is, regardless of Lebanon's actions, Israel was inevitably going to invade and attack Lebanon?
you just claim that lebanon can't do nothing. what action they will do?

With an organization that was formed in order to destroy Israel and still seeks the destruction of Israel? Good luck..


Greetings

It has been done with succes with the IRA

I know it isn´t the same problems but the IRA were (are) as radical as Hizbollah so the comparason is right ahead.

The Hizbollah actually does some social work which might help the integration, the IRA never did that, as far as I know

I've posted this before, but the thread it was in got deleted and so I have no idea how people responded to it, save the two posts I managed to read. It's from an Israeli student in my course of studies posted three days ago on our course's forum:
Attack on Lebanon – an Israeli perspective

Hello everybody,

Last couple of days many people have asked me about the situation between Israel and Lebanon. I felt an urge to provide you with some more information, especially in light of the recent e-group mails which i find somewhat one sided.

These mails have described a war of Israel on Lebanon, however Israel is fighting the Hizbalha. The conflict with Hizbalha is several years old, and is basically a dispute over territory. Until year 2000, Israel’s army (IDF) has occupied the southern part of Lebanon as a strategy (perhaps unjustified) to protect its northern border after the war with Lebanon. The period of occupation was characterized by bloody battles between Israel and Hizbalha. After Israel’s retreat, south Lebanon has been under Hizbalha’s control.

Who is the Hizbalha? It has been portrayed in the e-group as an armed party, with primitive technology that 'only' kidnapped two soldiers and 'merely' wantes to exchange them with prisoners. Hizbalha is indeed a political party, but also a sophisticated and influential militia. It has gained much of its power due to a military and financial support from Syria and Iran. Hizbalha has kidnapped Israelis before, and the Israeli government always chose to negotiate and exchange them with Lebanese prisoners according the following equation:
1 Israeli prisoner = hundreds of Lebanese prisoners

The current conflict started after Hizbalha had attacked 2 IDF vehicles patrolling the northern border, killed 8 soldiers and kidnapped 2. Israel’s government has decided not to negotiate this time (as this behaviour may encourage more kidnapes), and battle Hizbalha, which is perceived as a threat to Israel’s security. Israel has 2 demands: return the kidnapped soldiers and have southern Lebanon under the control of Lebanon’s army rather than Hizbalha.

The sad reality is that Lebanon has little control over its country. After years of civil war that weakened and destroyed this pretty state, Syria has 'volunteered' to 'look after' Lebanon. Years have passed, but Syria is not willing to let go of Lebanon. Pro-Syrian politicians, especially the president Emil Lahud are acting on the behalf of Syria’s (and not Lebanon’s) interests. The former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik el Hariri, a liberal supporter of Lebanon’s independence has been assassinated, with alleged evidence linking high officials in Syria’s government (according to a UN investigation).

To achieve its aims, Israel’s government has decided to strike Hizbalha badly and isolate it. It first bombed Hizbalha bases, ammunition and weapons storages in south Lebanon. People wrote here that Israel is killing civilians, destroying infrastructure, etc. This is true, but Israel’s goals are to prevent Hizbalaha from receiving more arms from Iran or Syria by disabling access through land, air and sea. In Beirut, the buildings that were bombed harbored Hizbalha’s headquarters and offices. IDF airplanes have dropped flyers the day before informing the residents they most leave their homes if they don’t want to get hurt.

Nevertheless, in any armed conflict there are mistakes, and too many innocent people are hurt. Someone wrote that it is so unfair and unjust for the Lebanese people and I agree completely. I hurts me to think of the innocent people that have to experience war again. My heart goes out for the dead and wounded, and for the massive destruction of infrastructure. However, describing Israel as an evil entity that kills and destroys irrationally is not fair. I am not fond of IDF or much of Israel's policy regarding the Arab world. I am against violence of any kind, but it is very hard be judgmental under such circumstances.

Besides that, these people have forgot to mention what is happening in Israel. Since the bombing in Lebanon started 6 days ago, Hizbalha had launched over 1000 missiles (made in Syria) to Israel’s northern settlements (not military targets). Last week a grandmother and her grandchild were killed on their balcony as a missile hit the apartment. Another 8 civilians died in Haifa after another missile fell on the garage where they were working. The north part of Israel is completely paralyzed: people are sitting in shelters, no one is going to work, no public transportation, no schools. Hizbalha is threatening to send long range missiles (made in Iran) further south to Tel-Aviv, or bomb the large petrochemical industry in Haifa, which would have a devastating effect.

Most people would agree, that a government should have full sovereignty over its country. However, Lebanon is so weak that it is Hizbalha that is doing the fighting, calling the shots and also responsible for the consequences for the people of Lebanon. There is an international consensus that Hizbalha cannot rule instead of the government. The US, Europe and even Egypt and Saudi Arabia, all condemned Hizbalha’s activities (and also called Israel’s to restrain its use of power). There is also a UN resolution, supporting the exit of Hizbalha from south Lebanon.

If Lebanon wants to provide security and well being for its citizens, if it wishes to develop economically and socially, it must disarm Hizbalha and regain full sovereignty. Hizbalha can continue to compete as a political party if it wants to influence legally, as in every democratic state.

peaceI agree with most of it. The main difference in how I see the situation is that I have less optimism that Lebanon can regain full sovreignity anytime soon, especially not now. I fear Israel's actions are strengthening solidarity with Hezbullah and giving Syria more leverage in Lebanon, after they were forced to leave.

So, I'll ask again for comments on this perspective. :)

There will never be peace in the Middle East while religious people live there. So never ever.

Just turn that whole gods damned area into a giant glass parking lot. Irradiate the sumbitch for the next 10k years so. I'm sick of it. I'm sure most of you are too.

I've been arguing the viewpoint that the Lebanese people don't deserve the current punishment, because they (unlike the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank) aren't big fans of Hezbollah.

Many people here seem to disagree and prefer to throw them all into one pot.

So I have this article here, which attempts to analyse what the Lebanese think of Hezbollah, especially now that Israel is destroying their country.

Tell me what you think.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,427754,00.html


It is in Lebanon's own interest to eradicate Hezbollah with all due speed.

If they are - as your source suggest, and I would tend to agree - a group having allegiance to foreign powers *cough Iran or Syria* then they are traitors.
Traitors deserve the death penalty. No exceptions.

If the Lebanese gov't would have disarmed Hizballah, Israel would have no need to attack.
But you already conceeded that Lebanon could do nothing. It would either slip back into civil war (which would not stop Hezb'allah) or the Lebanese Army would be defeated (which would not stop Hezb'allah).

Therefore, as you said- it was inevitable that Israel would have invaded regardless of Lebanese action.

The explanation I have heard for Israeli attacks on Beirut airport, Beirut-Damascus highway, and the naval blockade, is to prevent Hezbollah sneaking the captured Israeli soldiers out of Lebanon. If the soldiers were returned, Israel would probably stop those attacks.

I am in Israel right now (in fact, I was in the north when the rockets started falling), so I am probably quite biased in Israel's favor. I do think that Israel has been somewhat excessive in its retaliation. Bombing katyusha launch sites, I wish them good shooting. Attacking the Lebanese infrastructure, I am not so sure.

Anyway, my proposal to aid the Lebanese is for Israel to supply Lebanon with tanks. That, and other heavy military arms that no terrorist organization knows how to use.

Gotta go.

The explanation I have heard for Israeli attacks on Beirut airport, Beirut-Damascus highway, and the naval blockade, is to prevent Hezbollah sneaking the captured Israeli soldiers out of Lebanon. If the soldiers were returned, Israel would probably stop those attacks.

I am in Israel right now (in fact, I was in the north when the rockets started falling), so I am probably quite biased in Israel's favor. I do think that Israel has been somewhat excessive in its retaliation. Bombing katyusha launch sites, I wish them good shooting. Attacking the Lebanese infrastructure, I am not so sure.

Anyway, my proposal to aid the Lebanese is for Israel to supply Lebanon with tanks. That, and other heavy military arms that no terrorist organization knows how to use.

Gotta go.

This is a nice pro israeli position I can perfectly understand. I just hope more people could think like you.

Many people here seem to disagree and prefer to throw them all into one pot.

So I have this article here, which attempts to analyse what the Lebanese think of Hezbollah, especially now that Israel is destroying their country.

Well when the idiotic American media uses "Hezbollah" in replacement of the general Lebanese population, then the American people become idiotic.

Hezbollah is a political party that was created to counter the warrantless Israel invasion back in the '80s. Not every Lebanese citizen is a member.

Surely this is not the first time people have told you: The Lebanese government had no way of taking out Hezbollah. Ever.

What they did do is enter talks with them to integrate the armed parts into the military, thus getting rid of the militia and keeping only a political party (which didn't get all that many votes).

I ask you, and everyone else who thinks like you: What should the Lebanese have done? And be realistic with it - don't expect the impossible from them.

"Even before the present escalation of the conflict, about 60 percent of the population already supported some of Hezbollah's demands," says Amal Saad-Ghorayeb, a professor of political science at the American University of Beirut and author of the book "Hizbu'llah -- Politics and Religion," the standard work on the Shiite militia. The radical Islamists won sympathy by taking a stand on popular issues that the pro-American government shied away from. Hezbollah's demand that Israel return the occupied territories known as the Sheeba Farms is one that a great many Lebanese would sign their name to.


BTW ...why is the defense minister saying his " useless to disarm Hezbollah army " will fight alongside hezbollah if Israel invades southern Lebenon ?

There usefull enough to fight one of the strongest military forces in the world...but not usefull enough to take controll of Southern Lebenon and prevent rocket and missile atttacks into Israel.


I think that dude needs to make up his mind .

Go Israel...hurry up and clear out hezbollah before the mighty Lebanese army comes to get you .

Lebanese defense minister: Army will fight ground invasion

By Haaretz Service and News Agencies

Lebanon's army, which so far has sat on the sidelines of the violence raging in the country, will fight an Israeli ground invasion, Defense Minister Elias Murr said on Al-Jazeera television Thursday.

"The Lebanese army - and I stress - the Lebanese army will resist and defend and will prove that it is an army that deserves respect," he said.

In most of the previous Israeli attacks, including in 1978 and the 1982 invasion in which Beirut was occupied, the Lebanese army largely stayed out of the fighting....etc.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741100.html




Tell that asshole if he wants some respect he should go disarm hezbollah and take controll of his own country ..and set up a buffer that keeps rockets and missiles out of Israel.

BTW ...why is the defense minister saying his " useless to disarm Hezbollah army " will fight alongside hezbollah if Israel invades southern Lebenon ?

There usefull enough to fight one of the strongest military forces in the world...but not usefull enough to take controll of Southern Lebenon and prevent rocket and missile atttacks into Israel.


I think that dude needs to make up his mind .

Go Israel...hurry up and clear out hezbollah before the mighty Lebanese army comes to get you .




http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741100.html


http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6995/newbtopian41yg.png

The explanation I have heard for Israeli attacks on Beirut airport, Beirut-Damascus highway, and the naval blockade, is to prevent Hezbollah sneaking the captured Israeli soldiers out of Lebanon. If the soldiers were returned, Israel would probably stop those attacks.

I am in Israel right now (in fact, I was in the north when the rockets started falling), so I am probably quite biased in Israel's favor. I do think that Israel has been somewhat excessive in its retaliation. Bombing katyusha launch sites, I wish them good shooting. Attacking the Lebanese infrastructure, I am not so sure.

Anyway, my proposal to aid the Lebanese is for Israel to supply Lebanon with tanks. That, and other heavy military arms that no terrorist organization knows how to use.

Gotta go.

What Aelosia said

What Aelosia said


I wonder how long he thinks it takes to learn how to use them ?:D


at any rate time for a common sense attack....

ROCKETS and MISSILES and other ARMS ...are supplied to HEZBOLLAH ..from IRAN ..and...SYRIA..and other sources..they do not spring naturaly from the ground in LEBANON.

So to keep ...MORE ROCKETS AND MISSILES AND OTHER ARMS ..from comming into LEBANON...since it seems the LENANESE are unable to controll the delivery...ISRAEL MUST BLOCKADE AND DESTROY THE NETWORKS USED TO TRANSPORT AND DELIVER THE MUNITIONS BEING USED BY THE HEZBOLLAH .


Wow...was that so hard to accept ?

I wonder how long he thinks it takes to learn how to use them ?:D

Pigleather seats in the tanks...

Pigleather seats in the tanks...Then make the Christian Lebanese use those...

Wow foot ball seats....must give a terrible ride...imagine the hemmaroids from pigskin seats...

Maybe its a good thing?


Who feels like fighting when their hemmaroids are acting up ?

The explanation I have heard for Israeli attacks on Beirut airport, Beirut-Damascus highway, and the naval blockade, is to prevent Hezbollah sneaking the captured Israeli soldiers out of Lebanon. If the soldiers were returned, Israel would probably stop those attacks.

I am in Israel right now (in fact, I was in the north when the rockets started falling), so I am probably quite biased in Israel's favor. I do think that Israel has been somewhat excessive in its retaliation. Bombing katyusha launch sites, I wish them good shooting. Attacking the Lebanese infrastructure, I am not so sure.

Anyway, my proposal to aid the Lebanese is for Israel to supply Lebanon with tanks. That, and other heavy military arms that no terrorist organization knows how to use.

Gotta go.

Great post. :)

achieve Peace.

which is what they are doing.

But you already conceeded that Lebanon could do nothing. It would either slip back into civil war (which would not stop Hezb'allah) or the Lebanese Army would be defeated (which would not stop Hezb'allah).

Therefore, as you said- it was inevitable that Israel would have invaded regardless of Lebanese action.

My previous statement can be interpreted in different ways, so I'll clarify.

Hizballah is part of the social fabric of Lebanon, they are present in the parliament and have seats there. As we know they also have a well trained militia and run rampant in the south. So whether or not you think Lebanon was unable to stop Hizballah or simply unWILLING to do so, is up for you to decide. Personally, I believe they were unwilling, which has a lot to do with the Syria/Iran card. So as long as Hizballah maintained a presence in the region the potential was there for Israeli attack. I'm not sure why we are arguing this point, because it seems obvious that as long as Al Qaeda is still around, they are subject to attack by the United Statess, regardless of where they are hiding.

As long as they hide in Lebanon amongst civilians and dress as civilians, they put the Lebanese people at risk. Removing Hizballah from Lebanon is good for Israel, good for Lebanon, and good for the rest of the world.

Well when the idiotic American media uses "Hezbollah" in replacement of the general Lebanese population, then the American people become idiotic.

Hezbollah is a political party that was created to counter the warrantless Israel invasion back in the '80s. Not every Lebanese citizen is a member.


Warrantless invasion in the 80's? Try rooting out the PLO which used southern Lebanon as a training ground and launch pad for terror on northern Israel after Lebanon signed a deal letting Arafat run wild in southern Lebanon. Hizballah was created to counter Israels initial counter attack against the PLO in southern Lebanon.

My previous statement can be interpreted in different ways, so I'll clarify.

Hizballah is part of the social fabric of Lebanon, they are present in the parliament and have seats there.
And you can expect alot more at the next election. People are going to weigh their dislike for Hezbollah vs their dislike for Israel, and I would bet my ass the dislike for Israel is getting heavier by the missile.

BTW ...why is the defense minister saying his " useless to disarm Hezbollah army " will fight alongside hezbollah if Israel invades southern Lebenon ?

There usefull enough to fight one of the strongest military forces in the world...but not usefull enough to take controll of Southern Lebenon and prevent rocket and missile atttacks into Israel.


I think that dude needs to make up his mind .

Go Israel...hurry up and clear out hezbollah before the mighty Lebanese army comes to get you .




http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741100.html




Tell that asshole if he wants some respect he should go disarm hezbollah and take controll of his own country ..and set up a buffer that keeps rockets and missiles out of Israel.

Awesome post. Makes alot of sense...that poor Lebanese army that couldn't stand up against Hizballah is gonna take on Israel. Very interesting stuff. How about the Lebanese Army fights ALONGSIDE Israel. why aren't they being deployed now?

PS Israel has approved allowing humanitarian aid to Lebanon.

And you can expect alot more at the next election. People are going to weigh their dislike for Hezbollah vs their dislike for Israel, and I would bet my ass the dislike for Israel is getting heavier by the missile.


I don't understand people that think like you. Hizballah was already part of the social society in Lebanon. A whole bunch of people ALREADY hated Israel and supported Hizballah which was attacking Israel.

After this military campaign, Hizballah will be disarmed and unable to launch attacks against Israel, leaving Lebanon filled with even more people who dislike Israel like you say, but unable to do anything about it. Sorta like Egypt and Jordan and a bunch of other Arab groups that have tried and failed to destroy Israel, but continue to hate them regardless.

Hizballah was already part of the social society in Lebanon.
But had only a handful of seats in the government. I don't understand how people don't realize that "Attacking a nation with a political terrorist organization will cause the nation to hate the organization" makes exactly -1 sense. That is how much sense it makes, negative. Imagine where the IRA would be if Britain bombed Ireland to get at IRA headquarters?

A whole bunch of people ALREADY hated Israel and supported Hizballah which was attacking Israel.
A "whole bunch" is not quantifiable.

After this military campaign, Hizballah will be disarmed and unable to launch attacks against Israel,
Sure, if you live in a fantasy world and Captain Planet intends to go steal all of Hizballah's weapons and throw them into the sun.

Sorta like Egypt and Jordan and a bunch of other Arab groups that have tried and failed to destroy Israel, but continue to hate them regardless.
With government friendly to the US because they get shitloads of support only below that of Israel.

But had only a handful of seats in the government. I don't understand how people don't realize that "Attacking a nation with a political terrorist organization will cause the nation to hate the organization" makes exactly -1 sense. That is how much sense it makes, negative. Imagine where the IRA would be if Britain bombed Ireland to get at IRA headquarters?


A "whole bunch" is not quantifiable.


Sure, if you live in a fantasy world and Captain Planet intends to go steal all of Hizballah's weapons and throw them into the sun.


With government friendly to the US because they get shitloads of support only below that of Israel.

The IRA and Hizballah are not comparable. The IRA was not sheltered by the country it operated from. Hizballah is. Hizballah is a much more organized and dangerous threat. The IRA wasn't willinng to commit to a long long struggle, Hizballah is..remember, they think they have G-d on their side.

Israel is attacking Hizballah, not the Lebanese people. In order to rid Lebanon of Hizballah, strategic targets have to be bombed to stop the weapons from coming in and to get rid of their headquarters.

If you claim Hizballah can't be defeated (which it can, as long as the US stands behind Israel and gives them reign to finish the job instead of a temporary cease fire) what do you propose doing with them. Let them launch rockets at Israel and force the Israelis to just deal with it? I hope your answer isn't to negotiate with them, because we know that won't work. Hizballah won't stop until Israel is destroyed (which will never happen) or they are all dead with no weapons. I choose option 2.

SNIP




With government friendly to the US because they get shitloads of support only below that of Israel.

Cool, eh?

Sometimes diplomacy actually works! :D :D :D

The IRA and Hizballah are not comparable. The IRA was not sheltered by the country it operated from. Hizballah is. Hizballah is a much more organized and dangerous threat. The IRA wasn't willinng to commit to a long long struggle, Hizballah is..remember, they think they have G-d on their side.
Wow, just wow.

Israel is attacking Hizballah, not the Lebanese people.
All those Hezbollah agents in Christian agents who dislike them more than they dislike ISrael.


If you claim Hizballah can't be defeated (which it can, as long as the US stands behind Israel and gives them reign to finish the job instead of a temporary cease fire) what do you propose doing with them.
So then, you assert an organization based around propaganda and guerilla warfare can be defeated with convential warfare tactics of bombing campaigns in highly populated areas? Genius.

I hope your answer isn't to negotiate with them, because we know that won't work. Hizballah won't stop until Israel is destroyed (which will never happen) or they are all dead with no weapons. I choose option 2.
Oh look, another genocide thing. Assuming heavyhanded tactics like bombing would actually finish them, you would kill upwards of two times as many non-related civilians, including those that don't support them. If you did manage to destroy all hezbollah operatives, the results of this bullshit kind of campaign would create if not several highly commited anti-Israel/anti-US guerilla groups, but a general country based hate for them.

Cool, eh?

Sometimes diplomacy actually works! :D :D :D
No, propaganda works, large gifts of money inherently creates good propaganda.
People are too stupid to realize that terrorist groups are not conventional armies (though they simultaneously say that when trying to slip them past laws and treaties), yet they think convential heavy handed military response will work. Even if you cut it down to exact strike forces, you wouldn't be able to get anywhere. You can only fight propaganda with propaganda, not bombing campaigns that reinforce the opposing propaganda.

Wow, just wow.


All those Hezbollah agents in Christian agents who dislike them more than they dislike ISrael.



So then, you assert an organization based around propaganda and guerilla warfare can be defeated with convential warfare tactics of bombing campaigns in highly populated areas? Genius.


Oh look, another genocide thing. Assuming heavyhanded tactics like bombing would actually finish them, you would kill upwards of two times as many non-related civilians, including those that don't support them. If you did manage to destroy all hezbollah operatives, the results of this bullshit kind of campaign would create if not several highly commited anti-Israel/anti-US guerilla groups, but a general country based hate for them.

Yep. The denser the population, the easier the job.
It isn't that you doubt that it is possible, it is that you don't like how it is done!

No, propaganda works, large gifts of money inherently creates good propaganda.
People are too stupid to realize that terrorist groups are not conventional armies (though they simultaneously say that when trying to slip them past laws and treaties), yet they think convential heavy handed military response will work. Even if you cut it down to exact strike forces, you wouldn't be able to get anywhere. You can only fight propaganda with propaganda, not bombing campaigns that reinforce the opposing propaganda.


Listen, mate, ANYONE can be brainwashed and/or repressed.
The GULAG worked just dandy, okay?

Cynically speaking, it don't matter a WHIT what the peepul think,
as long as you got the Secret Police fond of you.

And wars of ideas are a LOT easier when you're not skittish about Scorched Earth Tactics.

The IRA and Hizballah are not comparable. The IRA was not sheltered by the country it operated from. Hizballah is. Hizballah is a much more organized and dangerous threat. The IRA wasn't willinng to commit to a long long struggle, Hizballah is..remember, they think they have G-d on their side.

Oh...my....God. Really? I mean, do you actually believe any of that?


Israel is attacking Hizballah, not the Lebanese people. In order to rid Lebanon of Hizballah, strategic targets have to be bombed to stop the weapons from coming in and to get rid of their headquarters.

I'm sure the 200ish dead people were all Hezb'allah members. And I'm sure the 'collateral damage' excuse comforts the families of the dead.

You ask why don't the Lebanese Army side with the IDF and root out Hezb'allah?

Would you side with the people that are bombing your own barracks and bases, killing your comrades and friends in uniform? I think not.

Wow, just wow.


All those Hezbollah agents in Christian agents who dislike them more than they dislike ISrael.



So then, you assert an organization based around propaganda and guerilla warfare can be defeated with convential warfare tactics of bombing campaigns in highly populated areas? Genius.


Oh look, another genocide thing. Assuming heavyhanded tactics like bombing would actually finish them, you would kill upwards of two times as many non-related civilians, including those that don't support them. If you did manage to destroy all hezbollah operatives, the results of this bullshit kind of campaign would create if not several highly commited anti-Israel/anti-US guerilla groups, but a general country based hate for them.


Since when is killing terrorists bad? It works a shitload better than APPEASING them, which you seem to think is the answer. Seriously, maybe you'd have a better time talking them out of trying to destroy Israel when your head is chopped off, which is what it will be if they ever get their hands on YOU.

hizballah won't be defeated by bombings alone. The bombings of right now are making it imposible for them to rearm and have headquarters. Eventually Israel will launch a ground invasion and risk massive Israeli casualties in order to ensure limited civilian casualties by going door to door geting these people.

Since when is killing terrorists bad? It works a shitload better than APPEASING them, which you seem to think is the answer. Seriously, maybe you'd have a better time talking them out of trying to destroy Israel when your head is chopped off, which is what it will be if they ever get their hands on YOU.

hizballah won't be defeated by bombings alone. The bombings of right now are making it imposible for them to rearm and have headquarters. Eventually Israel will launch a ground invasion and risk massive Israeli casualties in order to ensure limited civilian casualties by going door to door geting these people.

Hizbollah activists are heroes that defend their beliefs. You shouldnt treat them like scum, they deserve better.

Yep. The denser the population, the easier the job.
It isn't that you doubt that it is possible, it is that you don't like how it is done!
If you can explain how a military campaign that causes civilian casualties can destroy an organization based on propaganda against the group carrying out the campaign would work at all, please, knock yourself out.


And wars of ideas are a LOT easier when you're not skittish about Scorched Earth Tactics.
SET in wars against ideas only work if you plan genocide.

Hizbollah activists are heroes that defend their beliefs. You shouldnt treat them like scum, they deserve better.

What if those ideas are the WRONG ideas?

R.E. Lee was no doubt a hero for his ideas.

And I would have sentenced him to the noose.
Along with everyone else who shared those southern ideas.

What if those ideas are the WRONG ideas?

R.E. Lee was no doubt a hero for his ideas.

And I would have sentenced him to the noose.
Along with everyone else who shared those southern ideas.

What about pirates?

If you can explain how a military campaign that causes civilian casualties can destroy an organization based on propaganda against the group carrying out the campaign would work at all, please, knock yourself out.


Eradicate the group.
To paraphrase Mao: The Insurgent is a fish in a revolutionary lake.
To quote Cao Cao: to catch the fish, boil the lake.

Jeez - never heard about Hoof and Mouth disease?
Or the Warsaw Uprising of 44?

As I said before: it can be done, but you don't like the consequences.

Oh...my....God. Really? I mean, do you actually believe any of that?



I'm sure the 200ish dead people were all Hezb'allah members. And I'm sure the 'collateral damage' excuse comforts the families of the dead.

You ask why don't the Lebanese Army side with the IDF and root out Hezb'allah?

Would you side with the people that are bombing your own barracks and bases, killing your comrades and friends in uniform? I think not.


We should ofcourse forget about the families of the dead Israelis. They all deserved to have Katyusha rockets blow up in their face. We should ignore the residents of northern Israel who have been in bomb shelters for the past week. This war was forced upon Israel by Hizballah.

Like i've said so many times before, Israel will not sit back and absorb casualties from bombings, rocket attacks, and ambushes simply because of the consequences of inflicting UNINTENTIONAL civilian casualties on the people of Lebanon. If Israel really wanted to kill civilians, Beirut would be looking much worse.

Hizballah on the other hand, intentionally tries to inflict casualties on Israels civilian population, and only apologize when those dead are Arab, and not Jews. Nasrallah called the dead 9 and 3 year old Arab brothers that were killed by a Katyusha in Nazareth "martyrs for Palestine."

Since when is killing terrorists bad?
You assert that the attacks on Palestine has not increased support for Hamas, despite the sweeping of Palestinian government. You assert that the people in Lebanese Christian communities, who dislike Hezbollah more than they dislike Israel, are Hezbollah operatives?

The bombings of right now are making it imposible for them to rearm and have headquarters.
Keep telling yourself that skipp, I will go on being informed.

Eventually Israel will launch a ground invasion and risk massive Israeli casualties in order to ensure limited civilian casualties by going door to door geting these people.
And if Lebanon doesn't respond militarily, Hezbollah will gain more support and Syria and Iran will probably get involved.

Eradicate the group.
To paraphrase Mao: The Insurgent is a fish in a revolutionary lake.
To quote Cao Cao: to catch the fish, boil the lake.
Only works on an isolated lake. Won't work against a political terrorist group. The collateral damage and casualties will only strengthen their cause and reinforce their propaganda. And if it does eliminate them, the collateral damage and casualties will inspire another political terrorist group.

Hizbollah activists are heroes that defend their beliefs. You shouldnt treat them like scum, they deserve better.


joke...right?

What if those ideas are the WRONG ideas?

R.E. Lee was no doubt a hero for his ideas.

And I would have sentenced him to the noose.
Along with everyone else who shared those southern ideas.
For believing in and fighting for states' rights?

We should ofcourse forget about the families of the dead Israelis. They all deserved to have Katyusha rockets blow up in their face. We should ignore the residents of northern Israel who have been in bomb shelters for the past week.
Well, if you want to ignore them, then fine. But I don't.

I was talking about the Lebanese civilians because you said

Israel is attacking Hizballah, not the Lebanese people
without mention of the Israeli civilians.


Like i've said so many times before,.....blah blah blah
Yeah, we know.

Do you get dodging lessons off of Corny? Because you're challenging for his title.

Only works on an isolated lake. Won't work against a political terrorist group. The collateral damage and casualties will only strengthen their cause and reinforce their propaganda. And if it does eliminate them, the collateral damage and casualties will inspire another political terrorist group.


Repeat and rinse.

It does work just fine in the case of hoof and mouth disease, dunnit?

Please. 'It shouldn't be' has no relation with 'it doesn't exist'.

We should ofcourse forget about the families of the dead Israelis. They all deserved to have Katyusha rockets blow up in their face. We should ignore the residents of northern Israel who have been in bomb shelters for the past week. This war was forced upon Israel by Hizballah. No, but perhaps you could realise that there not nearly as many Israeli dead as there are Lebanese dead.
Like i've said so many times before, Israel will not sit back and absorb casualties from bombings, rocket attacks, and ambushes simply because of the consequences of inflicting UNINTENTIONAL civilian casualties on the people of Lebanon. If Israel really wanted to kill civilians, Beirut would be looking much worse. The issue a lot of people have is not that Israel is deliberately targetting civilians, but that it seems to be very willing to accept losses of non-Israelis only to have the Lebanese government shoulder the entire blame for the circumstances.
Hizballah on the other hand, intentionally tries to inflict casualties on Israels civilian population, and only apologize when those dead are Arab, and not Jews. Nasrallah called the dead 9 and 3 year old Arab brothers that were killed by a Katyusha in Nazareth "martyrs for Palestine."Yeah, I know. It was a particularly disgusting thing of him to do.

You assert that the attacks on Palestine has not increased support for Hamas, despite the sweeping of Palestinian government. You assert that the people in Lebanese Christian communities, who dislike Hezbollah more than they dislike Israel, are Hezbollah operatives?


Keep telling yourself that skipp, I will go on being informed.


And if Lebanon doesn't respond militarily, Hezbollah will gain more support and Syria and Iran will probably get involved.


Attacks on Palestinians only happen when Paletinians blow up civilians in the streets or go on CROSS BORDER raids and kidnap soldiers...or launch ROCKETS into Isral from THE VERY TERRITORY THEY WITHDREW FROM A YEAR AGO.

I never said that the Lebanese Christians are Hizballah operatives, nor did I say that all civilians are Hizballah operatives.

Syria and Iran involved? Good...what will finally end all of this will be the ending of the Iranian meace and it's Syrian allies, all of which are state sponsors of terrorism.

joke...right?

More like playing the Devil's Advocate...

But why not? Hizbollah activists have some beliefs, and they bravely fight and are willing to die for them, exactly as the israeli soldiers. I think that's pretty much heroic.

It does work just fine in the case of hoof and mouth disease, dunnit?
You are either an incorrigible troll or off your rocker, either way, there is no point in continuing any sort of intellectual conversation with you.

Attacks on Palestinians only happen when Paletinians blow up civilians in the streets or go on CROSS BORDER raids and kidnap soldiers...or launch ROCKETS into Isral from THE VERY TERRITORY THEY WITHDREW FROM A YEAR AGO.
You see that point there? Yeah, that tiny little speck in the far off distance, that one. That? That is the point. Why don't you see if you can get over there and check it out.

You are either an incorrigible troll or off your rocker, either way, there is no point in continuing any sort of intellectual conversation with you.I disagree. He's just very extreme in his tolerance for extreme measures ;)

For believing in and fighting for states' rights?


Secession would be MORE than enough reason.

Failure to defend the Union with ardour and fanaticism would be reason enough.

For wearing the other uniform: reason enough.

For failing to pray every night for the eternal damnation of the enemies of the United States, which he had sworn to defend, reason enough.

For every shot fired against the Star Spangled Banner - reason enough.

Reasons abound.

Secession would be MORE than enough reason.

Failure to defend the Union with ardour and fanaticism would be reason enough.

For wearing the other uniform: reason enough.

For failing to pray every night for the eternal damnation of the enemies of the United States, which he had sworn to defend, reason enough.

For every shot fired against the Star Spangled Banner - reason enough.

Reasons abound.

Hi, Taliban

Hi, Hizbollah

Hi, Osama

Nice to meet you. I guess that if you keep that line of thinking and die for it, 72 whores will be reserved for you in hell.

No, but perhaps you could realise that there not nearly as many Israeli dead as there are Lebanese dead.

Right, because Israel has a powerful military and is launching more powerful attacks against Hizallah targets in Lebanon than Hizballah is launching against Israel...it's called winning. You don't use proportionate force if you want to win...you use disproportionate force. If you lessen Israels bombing campaign, the conflict will only be drawn out longer, probably causing more casualties considering it would be a tit for tat war of attrition.

The issue a lot of people have is not that Israel is deliberately targetting civilians, but that it seems to be very willing to accept losses of non-Israelis only to have the Lebanese government shoulder the entire blame for the circumstances.

The Israeli government has been clear in putting the blame on the shoulders of Hizballah and not the Lebanese governent. Israel is willing to accept losses of non-Israelis over the loss of Israelis...any country would feel the same way about its own citizens.

You are either an incorrigible troll or off your rocker, either way, there is no point in continuing any sort of intellectual conversation with you.


You see that point there? Yeah, that tiny little speck in the far off distance, that one. That? That is the point. Why don't you see if you can get over there and check it out.


BS, jose. You confuse logic with emotion.

Hi, Taliban

Hi, Hizbollah

Hi, Osama

Nice to meet you. I guess that if you keep that line of thinking and die for it, 72 whores will be reserved for you in hell.


How do you destroy someone's faith in his religion?
Cao Cao course 101, folks: you turn the religion of your opponent into a weapon against your opponent as well.

All resistance can be overcome: it is a matter of sufficient ruthlessness and sufficient force.

Right, because Israel has a powerful military and is launching more powerful attacks against Hizallah targets in Lebanon than Hizballah is launching against Israel...it's called winning. You don't use proportionate force if you want to win...you use disproportionate force. If you lessen Israels bombing campaign, the conflict will only be drawn out longer, probably causing more casualties considering it would be a tit for tat war of attrition.

"Want to win"? What are they trying to win? Because the last time I heard a statement from the Israeli Govt. it was about 'damaging' Hezb'allah. At least they've copped on to the realisation that they can't be wiped out by military means.


Israel is willing to accept losses of non-Israelis over the loss of Israelis...any country would feel the same way about its own citizens.

Let me try something:
Hezb'allah is willing to accept losses of non-Lebanese over the loss of Lebanese...any country would feel the same way about its own citizens

"Want to win"? What are they trying to win? Because the last time I heard a statement from the Israeli Govt. it was about 'damaging' Hezb'allah. At least they've copped on to the realisation that they can't be wiped out by military means.

They want to disarm Hizballah for good, stop the rocket attacks, and border incurions. That's what winning is.

Let me try something:

Except Hizballah would not be seeing the loss of Lebanese civilians had they not attacked Israel first..so now who is responsible?

They want to disarm Hizballah for good, stop the rocket attacks, and border incurions. That's what winning is.
Well, then they're destined to lose. Thats not going to happen.

Barak said himself, all they're trying to do is 'buy more time'. They got 6 years of relative peace after the withdrawal in 2000. This is just another operation to damage the group, so it gives some relative peace later.



Except Hizballah would not be seeing the loss of Lebanese civilians had they not attacked Israel first..so now who is responsible?

*swerve*
Wow. You almost caught my point. But you hit me back with a curveball from no where! :eek: Kudos.

Except Hizballah would not be seeing the loss of Lebanese civilians had they not attacked Israel first..so now who is responsible?
And there would be no stepped up rocket attacks and subsequently less dead Israelis if there was no invasion. Go go Gadget viscious circle.

Right, because Israel has a powerful military and is launching more powerful attacks against Hizallah targets in Lebanon than Hizballah is launching against Israel...it's called winning. You don't use proportionate force if you want to win...you use disproportionate force. If you lessen Israels bombing campaign, the conflict will only be drawn out longer, probably causing more casualties considering it would be a tit for tat war of attrition.Olmert wasn't talking about how they had to make sure they were killing more Lebanese than Hezbullah was killing Israelis...

The Israeli government has been clear in putting the blame on the shoulders of Hizballah and not the Lebanese governent.Bullshit (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast/index.html).

How do you destroy someone's faith in his religion?
Cao Cao course 101, folks: you turn the religion of your opponent into a weapon against your opponent as well.

All resistance can be overcome: it is a matter of sufficient ruthlessness and sufficient force.

Cao Cao course 101?

Way to destroy my faith in humanity guys...

Alright, now for by the numbers with your resident commie-activist type. Lets start with the Gaza/Israel dispute. In the past 1,900 days, Palestinian "terrorists" have bombarded Israel with Kassam rockets. These rockets are devoid of actual explosives and will only kill if someone is hit directly by one. The firing is meant not as a hope of killing as many Israelis as possible, but to make them feel the terror that Palestinians have suffered under constant Threat of Israeli shelling. (Yes, countless town in the Gaza strip have been mortared by Israel long before Palestine started fighting back.) In that time, a total of 8 people were killed. In the past six months, Israel has killed 80 civilians in Gaza, ten times more than the Gazans in a 14th of the time, all without any form of reprisal.

Now on to Hezbolla and their history. First off, Hezbolla is not a religious fanatic group along the lines of al-qaeda (think it's mispelt but oh well). They are a group of dilligent, intelligent fighters who fought to liberate Lebannon from Israeli occupation in the 90's. The average memeber is about 35 and has a college degree. These are not your indoctrinated 16 year olds who hope to see a pack of virgins in heaven (as some of our "esteemed" members have suggested). Hezbolla has supposedly been commiting terrorist acts against Israel since the Israeli pull out from Lebannon. What they don't tell you though is that these strike were directed against a sector of Lebanese territory still under Israeli control.

Time for more numbers, The supposed reason for the bombardment of Lebannon is is the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbolla. However, now comes the time to see how many Lebanese the Israeli government is holding captive. Exact numbers are unknown but lies in the hundreds. Over 200 Civilains have died under Israel bombing, and you dare to call Hezbolla terrorists. What is the difference between a terrorist an a freedom fighter, other than the man calling him a terrorist is the one bombing his country with US backing.

This is not to say I support any form of assault on Israel or the surrounding areas, but until an understanding can be reached by all sides, we are far from seeing peace.

Well, then they're destined to lose. Thats not going to happen.

Barak said himself, all they're trying to do is 'buy more time'. They got 6 years of relative peace after the withdrawal in 2000. This is just another operation to damage the group, so it gives some relative peace later.

This is where we disagree. I believe that it is a great injustice that Israel is unable to live in peace and security without Hizballah rearing its ugly head at all times from the north. We both know there is no talking to hizballah, or convincing them to end their goal of destroying Israel, so the only solution I see is a military one.


*swerve*
Wow. You almost caught my point. But you hit me back with a curveball from no where! :eek: Kudos.

lol, come on PM, we tend to usually have some good discussions, and I'm always willing to concede a point to you when your right.

I would also like to add that Israel has voluntarily bombarded Lebanese military bases with no connections to Hezbolla, let alone the roads, bridges and farms that are devoid of connections to the para-military group.

And there would be no stepped up rocket attacks and subsequently less dead Israelis if there was no invasion. Go go Gadget viscious circle.


maybe not stepped up rocket attacks...just regular rocket attacks...those are fine right? Israel should just sit back back and let its civilian population absorb those "regular" rocket attacks.

maybe not stepped up rocket attacks...just regular rocket attacks...those are fine right? Israel should just sit back back and let its civilian population absorb those "regular" rocket attacks.

Likewise, should Lebannon simply sit back and accept Israels strike, should Gaza. This is creating a viscious cirle that is devoid of a winner.

This is where we disagree. I believe that it is a great injustice that Israel is unable to live in peace and security without Hizballah rearing its ugly head at all times from the north.

So do I. In fairness to Hezb'allah, bar this dickheaded move in seizing two IDF soldiers- they've actually been relatively quiet. The get antsy over the Shebaa Farms as they're disputed territory, but apart from that they've been 'ok' since 2000. It was their fault for starting this- but that does not excuse the extremely heavy handed response by the IDF falling on illegitimate targets.

We both know there is no talking to hizballah, or convincing them to end their goal of destroying Israel, so the only solution I see is a military one.

This is where I disagree. There is no solid organisation that cannot be talked to- they just haven't done so successfully yet.

maybe not stepped up rocket attacks...just regular rocket attacks...those are fine right? Israel should just sit back back and let its civilian population absorb those "regular" rocket attacks.
Why did Israel retaliate this time? Soldiers were kidnapped? Hezbollah attacked a military installation? Looks like the civilians can absorb as many rocket attacks as possible for all Israel cares.

Some of the other uninformed people may fall for your sleight of hand argument, but not me because I am informed.

Why did Israel retaliate this time? Soldiers were kidnapped? Hezbollah attacked a military installation? Looks like the civilians can absorb as many rocket attacks as possible for all Israel cares.

Some of the other uninformed people may fall for your sleight of hand argument, but not me because I am informed.

Israel couldn't care less about it's soldiers from what I've seen, personally I think this is all a convuluted ploy to force Iran to play it's hand before it acquires nuclear technology.

Way to destroy my faith in humanity guys...

Alright, now for by the numbers with your resident commie-activist type. Lets start with the Gaza/Israel dispute. In the past 1,900 days, Palestinian "terrorists" have bombarded Israel with Kassam rockets. These rockets are devoid of actual explosives and will only kill if someone is hit directly by one. The firing is meant not as a hope of killing as many Israelis as possible, but to make them feel the terror that Palestinians have suffered under constant Threat of Israeli shelling. (Yes, countless town in the Gaza strip have been mortared by Israel long before Palestine started fighting back.) In that time, a total of 8 people were killed. In the past six months, Israel has killed 80 civilians in Gaza, ten times more than the Gazans in a 14th of the time, all without any form of reprisal.

Now on to Hezbolla and their history. First off, Hezbolla is not a religious fanatic group along the lines of al-qaeda (think it's mispelt but oh well). They are a group of dilligent, intelligent fighters who fought to liberate Lebannon from Israeli occupation in the 90's. The average memeber is about 35 and has a college degree. These are not your indoctrinated 16 year olds who hope to see a pack of virgins in heaven (as some of our "esteemed" members have suggested). Hezbolla has supposedly been commiting terrorist acts against Israel since the Israeli pull out from Lebannon. What they don't tell you though is that these strike were directed against a sector of Lebanese territory still under Israeli control.

Time for more numbers, The supposed reason for the bombardment of Lebannon is is the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbolla. However, now comes the time to see how many Lebanese the Israeli government is holding captive. Exact numbers are unknown but lies in the hundreds. Over 200 Civilains have died under Israel bombing, and you dare to call Hezbolla terrorists. What is the difference between a terrorist an a freedom fighter, other than the man calling him a terrorist is the one bombing his country with US backing.

This is not to say I support any form of assault on Israel or the surrounding areas, but until an understanding can be reached by all sides, we are far from seeing peace.


Launching rockets of any kind at civilian population centers is unjustified. Hizballah was founded after Israel invaded Lebanon to GET RID OF THE PLO who had turned souther lebanon into a terrorist hot bed. Israel was only in Lebanon to get the PLO out.

As for your Gaza rant, Israel had no more military presence in Gaza until Shalit was kidnapped 3 weeks ago. The second Israel left, the rockets started coming..hence the shelling of gaza.

As for your freedom fighter rant, I'm not even gonna go there with someone who clearly is an apologist for terrorism and murder.

Israel couldn't care less about it's soldiers from what I've seen, personally I think this is all a convuluted ploy to force Iran to play it's hand before it acquires nuclear technology.
Oh this is obviously a ploy for something, for what specifically, it isn't clear yet.

This is where I disagree. There is no solid organisation that cannot be talked to- they just haven't done so successfully yet.


58 years the Arab fundamentalists have been trying to destroy Israel. before that, they were killing Jews. Radical Islam has not and has never negotiated a lasting peace...cuz like I said...they think they are doing Allahs will.

Launching rockets of any kind at civilian population centers is unjustified. Hizballah was founded after Israel invaded Lebanon to GET RID OF THE PLO who had turned souther lebanon into a terrorist hot bed. Israel was only in Lebanon to get the PLO out.

As for your Gaza rant, Israel had no more military presence in Gaza until Shalit was kidnapped 3 weeks ago. The second Israel left, the rockets started coming..hence the shelling of gaza.

As for your freedom fighter rant, I'm not even gonna go there with someone who clearly is an apologist for terrorism and murder.

So you prefer organised murder then. It's a crime for Hezbolla to bombard Israel, but the reverse is justified.

I'm not saying any murder is justified, but you have to look at the bigger picture. Israel was dumped onto palestinian territory after the second world was with some heavy US backing. This causes some problems sure enough, but the added injury of invading Gaza and detaining thousands for no reason has soured them in palestinian eyes, as well as the eyes of the Entire middle east. I know and respect many Israelis, However, I hate their hard-ball governments tactics.

Back to Gaza, When Israel pulled out of the occupied territories I was extatic. Finally some sense was being made. However, you always have your nut jobs who don't accept it and went out killing and kidnapping. I believe Israel should try to reconcilliate itself with Palestine and work with Hamas (unlikely I know but at leat bloody try) to work out a peace settlement rather than just start bombarding like crazy again.

Israel couldn't care less about it's soldiers from what I've seen, personally I think this is all a convuluted ploy to force Iran to play it's hand before it acquires nuclear technology.

Israel doesn't care about it's soldiers? Have you ever been there on Yom HaZikaron (Israels Memorial Day)? Unlike other countries who sit back and bar b que on Memorial, Israel takes their day of remembance seriously. The day is extremely solemn, I've been there. In fact, at 10 AM, everything in the entire country stops. EVERYTHING. On highways people stop their cars and get out and stand to listen as a siren wails throughout the entire country. Everyone stop wat they are doing jut to listen to the siren.

58 years the Arab fundamentalists have been trying to destroy Israel. before that, they were killing Jews. Radical Islam has not and has never negotiated a lasting peace...cuz like I said...they think they are doing Allahs will.

Now you've made a sweeping generalisation- you've netted all the various groups vying for their own terms and goals under the umbrella of 'Arab fundamentalists' and 'Radical Islam'.

I suggest you do a quick read of the founding of the grand-daddy of Palestinian groups- the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and their splinters. Who founded them? What was their ideology? And so forth.

Israel doesn't care about it's soldiers? Have you ever been there on Yom HaZikaron (Israels Memorial Day)? Unlike other countries who sit back and bar b que on Memorial, Israel takes their day of remembance seriously. The day is extremely solemn, I've been there. In fact, at 10 AM, everything in the entire country stops. EVERYTHING. On highways people stop their cars and get out and stand to listen as a siren wails throughout the entire country. Everyone stop wat they are doing jut to listen to the siren.

Thay may honour the dead, but they certainly don't try to keep the living out of harms way. I have friends who have been to palestine on humanitarian missions, and they have always had nothing but open hostility from Israeli soldiers. Something that certainly isn't endearing them to Palestinians.

So you prefer organised murder then. It's a crime for Hezbolla to bombard Israel, but the reverse is justified.

I'm not saying any murder is justified, but you have to look at the bigger picture. Israel was dumped onto palestinian territory after the second world was with some heavy US backing. This causes some problems sure enough, but the added injury of invading Gaza and detaining thousands for no reason has soured them in palestinian eyes, as well as the eyes of the Entire middle east. I know and respect many Israelis, However, I hate their hard-ball governments tactics.

Back to Gaza, When Israel pulled out of the occupied territories I was extatic. Finally some sense was being made. However, you always have your nut jobs who don't accept it and went out killing and kidnapping. I believe Israel should try to reconcilliate itself with Palestine and work with Hamas (unlikely I know but at leat bloody try) to work out a peace settlement rather than just start bombarding like crazy again.


Israel is justified in attacking Hizballah because hizballah initiated hostilites with Israel. That's an easy one.

Hamas has no intention of stopping the terror. In fact, they are the ones orchestrating it. Go read their charter. They completely reject peaceful solutions.

As for your history of the creation of Israel, at minimum I would say your views are slightly off the mark of what really happened.

Thay may honour the dead, but they certainly don't try to keep the living out of harms way. I have friends who have been to palestine on humanitarian missions, and they have always had nothing but open hostility from Israeli soldiers. Something that certainly isn't endearing them to Palestinians.


They have trouble keeping them alive because they are under constant attack from sucide bombers and Arab aggressors throughout its history that have been hell bent on Israels destrction.

Perhaps these humanitarian workers are greeted with hostility because they are ccontributing to the propoganda and situation that they are fighting to bring and end to.

Israel is justified in attacking Hizballah because hizballah initiated hostilites with Israel. That's an easy one.

Hamas has no intention of stopping the terror. In fact, they are the ones orchestrating it. Go read their charter. They completely reject peaceful solutions.

As for your history of the creation of Israel, at minimum I would say your views are slightly off the mark of what really happened.
This from Mr Parallel Demension Irish Republican Army.

Israel is justified in attacking Hizballah because hizballah initiated hostilites with Israel. That's an easy one.

Hamas has no intention of stopping the terror. In fact, they are the ones orchestrating it. Go read their charter. They completely reject peaceful solutions.

As for your history of the creation of Israel, at minimum I would say your views are slightly off the mark of what really happened.

So tell me, what did happen. I know Hamas is unlikely to have any sort of agreement with Israel and stand for its destruction. But both sides need to be looked at here. From what I see Israel isn't too keen on stopping it either.

That hezbolla started the attacks is undeniable, and I do not support their actions, yet Israels counter is unnaceptable. Had they tried a democratic approach and worked with the lebanese government and worked something out with hezbolla rather than start to bombard Lebannon, this could all have been avoided. (and please don't go telling me Hezbolla can't be treated with, I've seen interviews with their leader and he seems fairly reasonable.)

They have trouble keeping them alive because they are under constant attack from sucide bombers and Arab aggressors throughout its history that have been hell bent on Israels destrction.

Perhaps these humanitarian workers are greeted with hostility because they are ccontributing to the propoganda and situation that they are fighting to bring and end to.

So now feeding children, offering medical attention and planting olive trees is what Israel is fighting to bring an end to?

Now you've made a sweeping generalisation- you've netted all the various groups vying for their own terms and goals under the umbrella of 'Arab fundamentalists' and 'Radical Islam'.

I suggest you do a quick read of the founding of the grand-daddy of Palestinian groups- the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and their splinters. Who founded them? What was their ideology? And so forth.


If you're getting at the fact that PFLP was founded by Christians, I already know that. But the roots of Arab hatred of the Jews goes way back to the 20s if not earlier. massacres were happening there all the time, most notably the 1929 massacre in Hebron and Safed.

Whats more appalling, is the great influence that the Nazi allied Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had over the muslims living in Mandated Palestine. This hate is deeply rooted in their culture, and almost every army in the Middle East has had its try at taking out Israel, many on several occasions.

If you're getting at the fact that PFLP was founded by Christians, I already know that. But the roots of Arab hatred of the Jews goes way back to the 20s if not earlier. massacres were happening there all the time, most notably the 1929 massacre in Hebron and Safed.

Whats more appalling, is the great influence that the Nazi allied Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had over the muslims living in Mandated Palestine. This hate is deeply rooted in their culture, and almost every army in the Middle East has had its try at taking out Israel, many on several occasions.

Hate to break it to ya but until the second world war, pretty much everyone had something against the jews. The United States and Canada even turned back Jewish refugees trying to escape Nazi Germany, sending them back to their deaths. Look at Jewish history, Everyone finds some indiscribably stupid reason to hate them and blame them for all their problems. Yes, the Arab world hates Israel and much of what it stands for, They're reasons are as pathetic as ours were.

Where do we get off being so high and mighty?

So now feeding children, offering medical attention and planting olive trees is what Israel is fighting to bring an end to?


No, Israel is fighting against Palestinian terrorism. The humanitarian workers should be working to convince the PA to correctly allocate the millions of dollars of aid they recieve that goes nowhere other than to more terrorist attacks. These workers shoul dbe working towards freeing the Palestinians from their own corrupt leadership than by adding to the propoganda that the Palestinians are a poor and neglected because of Israel.

Hate to break it to ya but until the second world war, pretty much everyone had something against the jews. The United States and Canada even turned back Jewish refugees trying to escape Nazi Germany, sending them back to their deaths. Look at Jewish history, Everyone finds some indiscribably stupid reason to hate them and blame them for all their problems. Yes, the Arab world hates Israel and much of what it stands for, but where do we get off being so high and mighty?


You haven't broken anything to me...I know very well the history of the Jewish people and their constant persecution. What the point you were trying to make with that whole "where do we get off being so high and mighty" thing.

No, Israel is fighting against Palestinian terrorism. The humanitarian workers should be working to convince the PA to correctly allocate the millions of dollars of aid they recieve that goes nowhere other than to more terrorist attacks. These workers shoul dbe working towards freeing the Palestinians from their own corrupt leadership than by adding to the propoganda that the Palestinians are a poor and neglected because of Israel.
So you have no argument other than "Israel didn't do it, it's everyone else's fault, Israel has no blame."

"I didn't do it, you didn't see me do it, you can't prove anything."

If you're getting at the fact that PFLP was founded by Christians, I already know that. But the roots of Arab hatred of the Jews goes way back to the 20s if not earlier. massacres were happening there all the time, most notably the 1929 massacre in Hebron and Safed.

No shit. Pogroms had been going on for centuries in Russia, Central Europe, West Europe... anywhere the Jewish people were. That has nothing to do with my point. You swept all groups under the 'Radical Islam' banner, when clearly, they're not.


Whats more appalling, is the great influence that the Nazi allied Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had over the muslims living in Mandated Palestine. This hate is deeply rooted in their culture, and almost every army in the Middle East has had its try at taking out Israel, many on several occasions.

Again, so what? Churchill was a great fan of Mussolini.

Your avoiding the point, and trying to tie in modern day grievances to Nazism. It doesn't work like that.

No, Israel is fighting against Palestinian terrorism. The humanitarian workers should be working to convince the PA to correctly allocate the millions of dollars of aid they recieve that goes nowhere other than to more terrorist attacks. These workers shoul dbe working towards freeing the Palestinians from their own corrupt leadership than by adding to the propoganda that the Palestinians are a poor and neglected because of Israel.

While they were there an entire grove of Olive trees was bulldozed by Israeli troops. Hamas has been elected by the people of Palestine because they have suffered nothing but antagonism by Israels military, neither side is right in this debate.

So you have no argument other than "Israel didn't do it, it's everyone else's fault, Israel has no blame."

"I didn't do it, you didn't see me do it, you can't prove anything."


Israel didn't tell the Arabs to leave Mandated Palestine, their leaders did. Israel didn't put the Palestinians in camps, the Arabs did. Israel didn't attack anyone in its series of wars it has fought, it has defended itself in wars where it was attacked first. Find me something to blame Israel for, and get back to me.

While they were there an entire grove of Olive trees was bulldozed by Israeli troops. Hamas has been elected by the people of Palestine because they have suffered nothing but antagonism by Israels military, neither side is right in this debate.

The IDF doesn't bulldoze anything that wasnt once used for terrorism.

Hamas was elected by the people because the Hamas ideology is well known and no secret: they seek the complete obliteration of Israel.

Israel didn't tell the Arabs to leave Mandated Palestine, their leaders did. Israel didn't put the Palestinians in camps, the Arabs did. Israel didn't attack anyone in its series of wars it has fought, it has defended itself in wars where it was attacked first. Find me something to blame Israel for, and get back to me.

How about war crimes, from what I hear thats what the UN is pointing to.

here is a great group of quotes:

http://www.standwithuscampus.com/flyers/ArableaderstellPalestinianstoFleein1948.pdf

Israel didn't tell the Arabs to leave Mandated Palestine, their leaders did. Israel didn't put the Palestinians in camps, the Arabs did. Israel didn't attack anyone in its series of wars it has fought, it has defended itself in wars where it was attacked first. Find me something to blame Israel for, and get back to me.
'We must do everything to ensure they [the Arab refugees] never do return'."
—David Ben Gurion, 1948, from his diary 18 July 1948

The IDF doesn't bulldoze anything that wasnt once used for terrorism.
That is like your statement on the IRA.

'We must do everything to ensure they [the Arab refugees] never do return'."
—David Ben Gurion, 1948, from his diary 18 July 1948


Right..never RETURN, which means they had already left, and nnot by fault of Israel, except in exceptions like Lydda and Ramleh where the Arabs were told to leave either a) because of stratefgic military reasons b) they surrounded enclaves of Jews at risk of being killed by invading arab armies.

Right..never RETURN, which means they had already left, and nnot by fault of Israel, except in exceptions like Lydda and Ramleh where the Arabs were told to leave either a) because of stratefgic military reasons b) they surrounded enclaves of Jews at risk of being killed by invading arab armies.
All hail Israel, the doer of no wrong.

Can i point out that the palestinians have every right to be pissed off. The palestinians were persuaded to join the second world war on the promise that they would have their land returned to them from the british. However at the end of the war it was decided to instead give palestine to the jews for a homeland. How would you like it if someone came along invaded your home then promised to give it back to you so long as you let your people die and they then gave it to someone else that treated you like scum?

All hail Israel, the doer of no wrong.


Israel has been the object of a series of wars of aggression that were orchestrated in order to destroy Israel. If the Arabs accepted partition in 47 instead of invading Israel to kill all the Jews, there would be no refugees from the war. Remember, Israel was invaded after Palestine (which was named such by the British and was not called that by the Arabs living there) was split to accomodate the Jews and Arabs living in the British mandate. The Arabs left as a result of a war that THEY initiated.

Bunking Good']Can i point out that the palestinians have every right to be pissed off. The palestinians were persuaded to join the second world war on the promise that they would have their land returned to them from the british. However at the end of the war it was decided to instead give palestine to the jews for a homeland. How would you like it if someone came along invaded your home then promised to give it back to you so long as you let your people die and they then gave it to someone else that treated you like scum?

Now if only we could get Greater Valinor to actually listen to this. I notice he still hasn't responded as to the actual creation of Israel (in his view).

Welcome aboard by the way.

Bunking Good']Can i point out that the palestinians have every right to be pissed off. The palestinians were persuaded to join the second world war on the promise that they would have their land returned to them from the british. However at the end of the war it was decided to instead give palestine to the jews for a homeland. How would you like it if someone came along invaded your home then promised to give it back to you so long as you let your people die and they then gave it to someone else that treated you like scum?

The Jews were promised a state in Mandated Palestine in 1917. It was called the Balfour Declaration.

Israel has been the object of a series of wars of aggression that were orchestrated in order to destroy Israel. If the Arabs accepted partition in 47 instead of invading Israel to kill all the Jews, there would be no refugees from the war. Remember, Israel was invaded after Palestine (which was named such by the British and was not called that by the Arabs living there) was split to accomodate the Jews and Arabs living in the British mandate. The Arabs left as a result of a war that THEY initiated.
Like I said, all hail Israel, the doer of no wrong.
When did two wrongs start making a right?
"Well, we were attacked this one time because we got put in the middle of the Middle East in a homeland we had been kicked out of centuries ago so we decided we are going to equally hate all of those people and blow our noses at them (along with some missiles for good measure) because we are Israel, and there was a Holocaust, and were attacked decades ago."

Like I said, all hail Israel, the doer of no wrong.
When did two wrongs start making a right?
"Well, we were attacked this one time because we got put in the middle of the Middle East in a homeland we had been kicked out of centuries ago so we decided we are going to equally hate all of those people and blow our noses at them (along with some missiles for good measure) because we are Israel, and there was a Holocaust, and were attacked decades ago."

Exactly. An eye for an eye making the whole world blind and no one can remember who plucked out the first one.

The Jews were promised a state in Mandated Palestine in 1917. It was called the Balfour Declaration.

This from the same people who carved up Africa because they we're too savage to run themselves. Causing all manner of Strife in Africa today. (yeah, all those genocides, Only occured due to colonial meddling and then abandonment. If you really feel like arguing, feel free but I'll win that one.)

Hamas was elected by the people because the Hamas ideology is well known and no secret: they seek the complete obliteration of Israel.

Bullshit.

Proof (http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2006/no57.pdf)

Question 12.

Question 17.

Question 24: Why did you vote for Hamas?

43% said to end corruption.
18.8% said for religious factors
11.8% political agenda.

This from the same people who carved up Africa because they we're too savage to run themselves. Causing all manner of Strife in Africa today. (yeah, all those genocides, Only occured due to colonial meddling and then abandonment. If you really feel like arguing, feel free but I'll win that one.)

Ah colonialism has there ever been such a destructive force

Bunking Good']Ah colonialism has there ever been such a destructive force

Truly.

Like I said, all hail Israel, the doer of no wrong.
When did two wrongs start making a right?
"Well, we were attacked this one time because we got put in the middle of the Middle East in a homeland we had been kicked out of centuries ago so we decided we are going to equally hate all of those people and blow our noses at them (along with some missiles for good measure) because we are Israel, and there was a Holocaust, and were attacked decades ago."


They were attacked in 1948 after the creation of Israel. The UN gave the majority Jewish populated areas to the Jews and because they also knew they would eventually need to accomodate Jewish refugees from the Holocaust, they also gave the arid untenable Negev desert to the Jews as well to put the immigrants(the desert). The rest of the land was given to the Arabs for an Arab state. The Arabs all rejected that plan because they didn't want a Jewish state on Muslim land, and once the British pulled out, launched a massive attack on Israel which included the armies of Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Iraq. Israel was defending themselves and took defensible borders after 1948. EDITThe West Bank was then ANNEXED by Jordan and Egypt took Gaza and then they, along with Lebanon and Syria, threw the Palestinians into camps. Israel has made peace with Jordan and Egypt, but have remained in hostile relations with pretty much every other Arab nation.

They were attacked in 1948 after the creation of Israel. The UN gave the majority Jewish populated areas to the Jews and because they also knew they would eventually need to accomodate Jewish refugees from the Holocaust, they also gave the arid untenable Negev desert to the Jews as well to put the immigrants(the desert). The rest of the land was given to the Arabs for an Arab state. The Arabs all rejected that plan because they didn't want a Jewish state on Muslim land, and once the British pulled out, launched a massive attack on Israel which included the armies of Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Iraq. Israel was defending themselves and took defensible borders after 1948. The West Bank was then ANNEXED by Jordan and Egypt took Gaza and then they threw the Palestinians into camps and have been trying to destroy Israel ever since.You can hardly claim that Jordan and Egypt are trying to destroy Israel nowadays...

Israel didn't tell the Arabs to leave Mandated Palestine, their leaders did. Israel didn't put the Palestinians in camps, the Arabs did. Israel didn't attack anyone in its series of wars it has fought, it has defended itself in wars where it was attacked first. Find me something to blame Israel for, and get back to me.


Good counter post, and you are correct. Israel did not break all the treaties that were made, the Palestinians did by suiside bombings and other such terror acts. The Palestinians are in camps because Arab governmenyts do not allow them to assinalate into populations. I bet no one here can name just one time where Israel attacked one nation that boarders it, no the Arab nations have attacked the jews many times (and each time got there butts kicked). I also believe that Israel has the right to keep all the lands they took during the wars, because they were not the aggressors, they were the victors....

While this is all fun; the creation of Israel, who's "wrong", who's land was "stolen first" and all that jazz, can we get back to the topic please?

Hezb'allah and Lebanon? ;)

Bullshit.

Proof (http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2006/no57.pdf)

Question 12.

Question 17.

Question 24: Why did you vote for Hamas?

43% said to end corruption.
18.8% said for religious factors
11.8% political agenda.


None of these poll answer choices specify how they want Hamas to achieve the goals of "ending the occupation" and such. We all know how Hamas tries to achieve these things.

What's more is that on Question 18 when asked about suicide bombings, 22.4% said they strongly support it and 33.8% said they somewhat supported it. That's 56.2% of Palestinians that show some sort of support for suicide bombings. Do that poll anywhere else in the world and I think you'll have different answers. These people know what they want and how they want to go about getting it done.

You can hardly claim that Jordan and Egypt are trying to destroy Israel nowadays...


No, they are at peace thank G-d. I was referring to much of the Arab world in general.

None of these poll answer choices specify how they want Hamas to achieve the goals of "ending the occupation" and such. We all know how Hamas tries to achieve these things.

What's more is that on Question 18 when asked about suicide bombings, 22.4% said they strongly support it and 33.8% said they somewhat supported it. That's 56.2% of Palestinians that show some sort of support for suicide bombings. Do that poll anywhere else in the world and I think you'll have different answers. These people know what they want and how they want to go about getting it done.

So it would be better to stand by while Israel antagonises them. You can't just take one side without the other. Terrorism is the poor mans weapon, and while I cannot support it neither am I willing to support Israels constant hammering of the palestinian peoples.

None of these poll answer choices specify how they want Hamas to achieve the goals of "ending the occupation" and such.

Question 19: 51.5% said they oppose the resumptions of military operations against Israel and indeed found them to be harmful to the Palestinian cause.

Question 12:66.3% said they want Hamas to continue political negotiations with Israel.

You cannot dispute the figures.


What's more is that on Question 18 when asked about suicide bombings, 22.4% said they strongly support it and 33.8% said they somewhat supported it. That's 56.2% of Palestinians that show some sort of support for suicide bombings. Do that poll anywhere else in the world and I think you'll have different answers. These people know what they want and how they want to go about getting it done.
Which has nothing to do with your claim thatHamas was elected by the people because they seek the complete obliteration of Israel.

Clearly, that is not the reason they voted them into power. A small minority said they voted for Hamas for political reasons. Over 40% said it was to combat corruption.

You were wrong on both counts.

You cannot dispute the figures.

56.2% of Palestinians SUPPORT, either somewhat or strongly, SUCICIDE BOMBINGS. Lets do an NS poll of who supports sucide bombings. Better yet, lets do a national poll on the US, or any other civilized country. Try and find me a country..any Western country that can produce 56.2% of its population to support suicide bombing, and I will concede this point to you.

So it would be better to stand by while Israel antagonises them. You can't just take one side without the other. Terrorism is the poor mans weapon, and while I cannot support it neither am I willing to support Israels constant hammering of the palestinian peoples.


Israel pulled out of Gaza one year ago, left no Jew or soldier in sight. Rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza every day since they left. Israel pulled out of Gaza...but violence still coming from Gaza? Doesn't make sense does it. They don't want peace, and they will never accept Israel as a state. Hamas must be done away with for good.

No, they are at peace thank G-d. I was referring to much of the Arab world in general.You might want to restructure the last sentence then, because there's no way you can read "the rest of the Arab world" out of:
The West Bank was then ANNEXED by Jordan and Egypt took Gaza and then they threw the Palestinians into camps and have been trying to destroy Israel ever since.

56.2% of Palestinians SUPPORT, either somewhat or strongly, SUCICIDE BOMBINGS. Lets do an NS poll of who supports sucide bombings. Better yet, lets do a national poll on the US, or any other civilized country. Try and find me a country..any Western country that can produce 56.2% of its population to support suicide bombing, and I will concede this point to you.

Yeah.... and?
Sympathising with suicide bombings =/= Wanting the destruction/obliteration of Israel.

You made a massive leap. You went from A to F. Again, that has nothing to do with your claim that the Palestinians voted for Hamas because they wanted the destruction of Israel.

Despite the figures showing you otherwise, you still don't admit it.

Unless this is going back to Lebanon and Hezb'allah- I'm done here.
*dusts hands*

Yeah.... and?
Sympathising with suicide bombings =/= Wanting the destruction/obliteration of Israel.

You made a massive leap. You went from A to F. Again, that has nothing to do with your claim that the Palestinians voted for Hamas because they wanted the destruction of Israel.

Despite the figures showing you otherwise, you still don't admit it.

Unless this is going back to Lebanon and Hezb'allah- I'm done here.
*dusts hands*

Palestinians said they wanted to end the occupation. I've talked to many Palestinians and their supporters who believe that violence and suicide bombing is a way to end the occupation. They find many ways to justify their reasons. That the Intifada targets bus stations because IDF soldiers frequent busstops. Things like this. That kidnapping soldiers is legitimate means of freeing thousands of terrorists in jail that were ot kidnapped but caught comiting terror acts against Israel.

I am linking the want to end the occupation with the means on doing so...that is, sucide bombing. It's impossible to deny a connection betwen the two.

Unfortunatly I must now leave this conversation, as I have other business to attend to. I may return to this thread at a later time, as there is still much to discuss (or argue anyway). I will continue to disagree with the pro-Israeli rhetoric that has been put on disply here, just as I expect everyone to leave this conversation with little more than justifiable anger at the others stubborn refusal to accept ones point of view, such is the nature of a heated argument.
I wish you all the best of health, disagreement should not promote hatred.

Palestinians said they wanted to end the occupation. I've talked to many Palestinians and their supporters who believe that violence and suicide bombing is a way to end the occupation. They find many ways to justify their reasons. That the Intifada targets bus stations because IDF soldiers frequent busstops. Things like this. That kidnapping soldiers is legitimate means of freeing thousands of terrorists in jail that were ot kidnapped but caught comiting terror acts against Israel.

I am linking the want to end the occupation with the means on doing so...that is, sucide bombing. It's impossible to deny a connection betwen the two.

Final words before I leave, How is this any different than your justification of why Israel is bulldozing Palestinian groves? They both have self promoting logic that just aggravates the situation.

Israel pulled out of Gaza one year ago, left no Jew or soldier in sight. Rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza every day since they left. Israel pulled out of Gaza...but violence still coming from Gaza? Doesn't make sense does it. They don't want peace, and they will never accept Israel as a state. Hamas must be done away with for good.

But why would they stop when the West Bank and East Jerusalem are still occupied?

Wow.

A quickly typed post gets almost all good reviews.

Is it just me, or do I suck at creating enemies? Well, I can always try again.

Re East Jerusalem, they're not getting that back. We are NOT giving up the Old City. A Muslim authority to administer Muslim holy sites, OK. Palestinian rule, not a chance in hell.

Re East Jerusalem, they're not getting that back. We are NOT giving up the Old City. A Muslim authority to administer Muslim holy sites, OK. Palestinian rule, not a chance in hell.
Well, you guys are going to have to split. Israel has no real right to the city anyways, you just happened to conquer it in a war.

And since my favourite option (making the city a free city, perhaps locating UN HQ there) ain't gonna happen, Israel and Palestine are going to have to share. No way around that.

But I'd agree that with the Temple Mount/Old City area, no side should have control over that. It's too important for both sides (I just shudder to occasionally hear about those Orthodox nutcases wanting to destroy the Dome of the Rock to look for old Temple artifacts underneith...), and the only way to have both sides guaranteed access for all eternity is if neutrals take over. Maybe the Chinese or Japanese, they don't really have an interest there religion-wise.

Here's another idea.

Israel keeps Jerusalem. However, the Palestinians get a sort of hostage - Hebron and the Tomb of the Patriarchs. Israel takes care of the Dome of the Rock, the Palestinians take care of the Tomb of the Patriarchs.

Though locating UN HQ next to the Old City and giving the UN authority over the Old City doesn't sound bad.

56.2% of Palestinians SUPPORT, either somewhat or strongly, SUCICIDE BOMBINGS. Lets do an NS poll of who supports sucide bombings. Better yet, lets do a national poll on the US, or any other civilized country. Try and find me a country..any Western country that can produce 56.2% of its population to support suicide bombing, and I will concede this point to you.Let's do a poll in the US to see how many people support nuclear carpet bombing of the Middle East. I wonder what kind of percentages THAT would result in...

Here's another idea.

Israel keeps Jerusalem. However, the Palestinians get a sort of hostage - Hebron and the Tomb of the Patriarchs. Israel takes care of the Dome of the Rock, the Palestinians take care of the Tomb of the Patriarchs.

Though locating UN HQ next to the Old City and giving the UN authority over the Old City doesn't sound bad.I've always considered Jerusalem to be better off as an autonomous city state ruled by some form of joint council comprised of the three Abrahamic religions that lay claim to it.

I've been arguing the viewpoint that the Lebanese people don't deserve the current punishment, because they (unlike the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank) aren't big fans of Hezbollah.

Many people here seem to disagree and prefer to throw them all into one pot.

So I have this article here, which attempts to analyse what the Lebanese think of Hezbollah, especially now that Israel is destroying their country.

Tell me what you think.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,427754,00.html
Good article. Thanks for sharing :)

I also believe that Lebanon is being unfairly treated. But what better way to get rid of a militant group than to piss of the people inside? Some of you may think that it will only get the population to join said militant group, but when you're facing an army such as israel's, what's the next best choice? kick out the militant group. Give in to their demands.

I think this is what Israel is pushing towards. I don't think they're trying to punish lebanon, but more so, "Encourage," them to turn over Hezbollah. Eventually you will have Lebanon on your side, due to the fact that their will to fight will dissapere.

I also believe that Lebanon is being unfairly treated. But what better way to get rid of a militant group than to piss of the people inside?

On the contrary, what better way to get people to turn from Lebanon's fledgling democracy to support a terrorist anti-israeli organisation?

Some of you may think that it will only get the population to join said militant group, but when you're facing an army such as israel's, what's the next best choice? kick out the militant group. Give in to their demands.

Not everyone in the Middle East is that spineless, i'm afraid. After 40 years of occupation it hasn't worked in Palestine.

I think this is what Israel is pushing towards. I don't think they're trying to punish lebanon, but more so, "Encourage," them to turn over Hezbollah. Eventually you will have Lebanon on your side, due to the fact that their will to fight will dissapere.

If anything, this is going to make Israel less popular, not more. Hint: bullies =/= popular.