NationStates Jolt Archive

NOTE: Conservatives in this thread refers to the Canadian political party, the Conservatives, and not the American conservatives, just to clarify.

France offers Canada evacuation help (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1153389184842&col=968705899037&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News)

Honestly... the Harper government is too busy cosying up to the Bush administration that it was taking far too long to adequately reply to a crisis, that we were left with citizens stranded and a family of 8 dead due to heavy Israeli bombardment (gee... and yet, Hezbollah hasn't bombed the foreign nationals and Harper praises Israel for "measured" attacks?)

So, we only got 260 or so evacuated (counting those who were able to get out on their own, even with difficulty.

So, we only got one ship in? Lame...

And we only got our first boatload out yesterday? This is just disgusting.

Conservatives, why aren't you "Standing up for Canada"?

But, at least we have someone helping our citizens out.

Thank you France. Canada thanks you for your help and hopes that the collaberation works out smoothly.

EDIT: Do not use this thread to bash France please.

France offers Canada evacuation help (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1153389184842&col=968705899037&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News)

Honestly... the Harper government is too busy cosying up to the Bush administration that it was taking far too long to adequately reply to a crisis, that we were left with citizens stranded and a family of 8 dead due to heavy Israeli bombardment (gee... and yet, Hezbollah hasn't bombed the foreign nationals and Harper praises Israel for "measured" attacks?)

So, we only got 260 or so evacuated (counting those who were able to get out on their own, even with difficulty.

So, we only got one ship in? Lame...

But, at least we have someone helping our citizens out.

Thank you France. Canada thanks you for your help and hopes that the collaberation works out smoothly.

EDIT: Do not use this thread to bash France please.


Oh, I guess it's US's fault that Canadian citizens aren't being evacuated by US ships... :rolleyes:

Oh, I guess it's US's fault that Canadian citizens aren't being evacuated by US ships... :rolleyes:
DK - did I insult the US?

Read the note. I had to edit it.

So, take your foot out of your mouth and read it. I'm praising France, not insulting the US. I prefer to lambast your country and its neo-cons in a Bush thread regardless of whether it kisses his ass or insults him 'til the cows come home.

DK - did I insult the US?

Read the note. I had to edit it.

So, take your foot out of your mouth and read it. I'm praising France, not insulting the US. I prefer to lambast your country and its neo-cons in a Bush thread regardless of whether it kisses his ass or insults him 'til the cows come home.


Yep I agree entirly, anti Bush sentiment does not = anti USA sentiment.

DK - did I insult the US?

Read the note. I had to edit it.

So, take your foot out of your mouth and read it. I'm praising France, not insulting the US. I prefer to lambast your country and its neo-cons in a Bush thread regardless of whether it kisses his ass or insults him 'til the cows come home.

You seem to imply that it's the US's fault.

The Canadian government doesn't have a lot in the way of any ability to project itself to rescue anyone. What with the leaky subs, the crippled destroyers, and the helicopters older than I am. And it's not Harper's fault that the Canadian Armed Forces are too lame to really help here.

Who was in charge of the government in Canada for the past 10 years of defense spending?

You seem to imply that it's the US's fault.

The Canadian government doesn't have a lot in the way of any ability to project itself to rescue anyone. What with the leaky subs, the crippled destroyers, and the helicopters older than I am. And it's not Harper's fault that the Canadian Armed Forces are too lame to really help here.

Who was in charge of the government in Canada for the past 10 years of defense spending?
Not the guys I voted for. I voted for the NDP, and I couldn't have voted until five years prior. So, really? I didn't get a chance to participate in the elections when it mattered.

Ok... and so, we're using leaky subs to evacuate people? :rolleyes: Dude, what are you smoking and where can I get some? Really...

You seem to imply that it's the US's fault.

The Canadian government doesn't have a lot in the way of any ability to project itself to rescue anyone. What with the leaky subs, the crippled destroyers, and the helicopters older than I am. And it's not Harper's fault that the Canadian Armed Forces are too lame to really help here.

Who was in charge of the government in Canada for the past 10 years of defense spending?Who needs armed forces to evacuate the civilians? There's no Bundeswehr over there, and the Germans are making it out fine.

Not the guys I voted for. I voted for the NDP, and I couldn't have voted until five years prior. So, really? I didn't get a chance to participate in the elections when it mattered.

Ok... and so, we're using leaky subs to evacuate people? :rolleyes: Dude, what are you smoking and where can I get some? Really...

The point is Canada doesn't have an ability to rescue anyone.

You do, however, own some crap subs you bought from the UK.

Just goes to show you that the Canadians will buy anything. It used to be that in the 1950s and 1960s, they bought American crap, and now they buy UK crap.

Harper wasn't in charge of anything as far as purchasing any defense equipment goes. His party wasn't in charge of anything.

I guess whoever was in charge can take the blame for Canada's complete impotence in this situation.

Who needs armed forces to evacuate the civilians? There's no Bundeswehr over there, and the Germans are making it out fine.

The OP is complaining that no official force is evacuating Canadians.

Maybe we should ask him that question.

Who needs armed forces to evacuate the civilians? There's no Bundeswehr over there, and the Germans are making it out fine.

As did the Dutch.

The OP is complaining that no official force is evacuating Canadians.

Maybe we should ask him that question.
Seems more like he's complaining about the amount of effort and not the forces. You don't need military to evacuate people and the only way I can see the OP implying that Canada should send its military over there is if you assume that that's the only way civilians can be evacuated.

The OP is complaining that no official force is evacuating Canadians.

Maybe we should ask him that question.
I'm complaing because the damn Conservatives did shit and resulted in the Canadians being the last ones out. I don't care what they use; I don't care if they put out a bunch of rafts.

What I care about is the fact that the response was slow, clumsey and they didn't start until Wednesday.

Seems more like he's complaining about the amount of effort and not the forces. You don't need military to evacuate people and the only way I can see the OP implying that Canada should send its military over there is if you assume that that's the only way civilians can be evacuated.

It is certainly easier to order a military ship to heave into a harbor in Lebanon than it is to convince a civilian owned vessel that you'll pay for its loss if something goes wrong.

One of those "nice to haves".

I doubt if Canada even had any money laying around, just for such an occasion.

You have a wierd, random point.

The threads point is while America isn't really doing anything for the canadians over there, France is offering help to get canadians out of lebanon. His point was about how the canadians should be re-evaluating their relationships and priorities in international politics.

Then you jump in about canadian defense spending.

It is certainly easier to order a military ship to heave into a harbor in Lebanon than it is to convince a civilian owned vessel that you'll pay for its loss if something goes wrong.Isn't that how the US is doing it though? Last I heard, they were leasing a Greek ship.

EDIT: Indeed, this is the case:
As boats arrived in Cyprus, the evacuee population there mushroomed. About 1,000 Americans arrived early Thursday on board a chartered cruise ship, and ships from other Western countries delivered hundreds of evacuees.Link (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/20/lebanon.evacuation/index.html)

It is certainly easier to order a military ship to heave into a harbor in Lebanon than it is to convince a civilian owned vessel that you'll pay for its loss if something goes wrong.

One of those "nice to haves".

I doubt if Canada even had any money laying around, just for such an occasion.

And yet plenty of civilian ships and planes have been evacuating people.

How many evacuating ships and planes have been damaged, much less destroyed?

And yet plenty of civilian ships and planes have been evacuating people.

How many evacuating ships and planes have been damaged, much less destroyed?

I am quite sure that most of the ones who were willing to do so have already been engaged.

Any more, and you'll either have to wait, or hire someone at an exorbitant price.

If I had a working ship, I could charge the Canadian government 100 million dollars per trip - they would either have to wait, or pay me.

Isn't that how the US is doing it though? Last I heard, they were leasing a Greek ship.

Correct and the people that will make use of it will be charged the fees as if they chartered a cruise. At a later time of course. "We don't ask people for money when under duress" - Professional Liar at the US embassy

It's funny but the shrub as usually missed an publicity opportunity. "The US will help any country that needs help evacuating their people!"

Correct and the people that will make use of it will be charged the fees as if they chartered a cruise. At a later time of course. "We don't ask people for money when under duress" - Professional Liar at the US embassy

It's funny but the shrub as usually missed an publicity opportunity. "The US will help any country that needs help evacuating their people!"

I bet the Greek shipping company is making an undisclosed huge sum of money.

Their insurers wouldn't allow anything else.

I am quite sure that most of the ones who were willing to do so have already been engaged.

Any more, and you'll either have to wait, or hire someone at an exorbitant price.

If I had a working ship, I could charge the Canadian government 100 million dollars per trip - they would either have to wait, or pay me.

Hmmm aren't you the one selling bottles of water for exorbitant prices after a disaster?

EDIT: Do not use this thread to bash France please.

What kind of twat would use a thread to bash another nation? Oh nevermind I see what kind.

Hmmm aren't you the one selling bottles of water for exorbitant prices after a disaster?

Gotta love war and disasters.

If we all followed the Swiss example...

What kind of twat would use a thread to bash another nation? Oh nevermind I see what kind.
The kind that thinks before they post?

And no, I never intended to insult the US. The problem is the Canadian Conservatives had the exact same handle as the American Conservatives. I'm used to not throwing the Canadian part in.

Anyway.

Yes, I noticed that a number of nation uses civilian vessels. The only ones who really uses military vessels were the US and Britain, though other nations had military staff or embassy staff on hand to help.

The kind that thinks before they post?

And no, I never intended to insult the US. The problem is the Canadian Conservatives had the exact same handle as the American Conservatives. I'm used to not throwing the Canadian part in.

Anyway.

Yes, I noticed that a number of nation uses civilian vessels. The only ones who really uses military vessels were the US and Britain, though other nations had military staff or embassy staff on hand to help.


If you've already paid for an amphibious assault ship, and it happens to be nearby, it's perfect for this sort of thing.

Or, you can shell out the extra cash for whatever the market will bear in civilian ships and planes.

I am quite sure that most of the ones who were willing to do so have already been engaged.

Any more, and you'll either have to wait, or hire someone at an exorbitant price.

If I had a working ship, I could charge the Canadian government 100 million dollars per trip - they would either have to wait, or pay me.

Good for you.

Ships take time to sail. Especially bigger ones, that can take large numbers of people. I'm sure a number of ships are to busy, or too far away, to even make it to lebanon in any realistic time frame.

From everything I've seen, everyone's priority, civilian or governmental, is to evacuate people, not screw people over.

I bet the Greek shipping company is making an undisclosed huge sum of money.

Their insurers wouldn't allow anything else.Then maybe the Canadian government should be using all that money they didn't spend on armaments on hiring ships to rescue Canadian citizens, no?

Then maybe the Canadian government should be using all that money they didn't spend on armaments on hiring ships to rescue Canadian citizens, no?
Zing!

No kidding. That's exactly why I'm complaining.

The point is Canada doesn't have an ability to rescue anyone.

Rescuing people is all about what our army is centered about. We can't figth but we can help.

We are pissed off at Harper because he did'nt do shit and, at the opposite of popular Canadian culture, he's kissing Izreal butt.

We are even more mad at him because he's doing a Media stunt by using is personnal plane to rescue 120 people when we have 40 000 of canadian in Libanon

Then maybe the Canadian government should be using all that money they didn't spend on armaments on hiring ships to rescue Canadian citizens, no?

That's also true.

Looks like, in either case, no Canadian government to date was ever prepared for this sort of thing.

Buying useless submarines instead.

Rescuing people is all about what our army is centered about. We can't figth but we can help.

We are pissed off at Harper because he did'nt do shit and, at the opposite of popular Canadian culture, he's kissing Izreal butt.

We are even more mad at him because he's doing a Media stunt by using is personnal plane to rescue 120 people when we have 40 000 of canadian in Libanon
You know that the could've put MORE than 120 on his plane if they had left the PM's staff in Paris, along with him and sent just the cabin crew and the pilots.

They could've carried more...

I agree that we are pissed off. He shouldn't have sided with either group; he should've allowed Canada to remain neutral.

You know that the could've put MORE than 120 on his plane if they had left the PM's staff in Paris, along with him and sent just the cabin crew and the pilots.

They could've carried more...

I agree that we are pissed off. He shouldn't have sided with either group; he should've allowed Canada to remain neutral.

I think we still have some old Bomarc missiles to sell you...

I think we still have some old Bomarc missiles to sell you...
Nah... we don't want to wind up like Sideshow Bob, DK.

Nah... we don't want to wind up like Sideshow Bob, DK.
Something tells me that after 50 years of spending billions on crap stuff from the US and UK, that Canada would wise up and stop buying stuff. Seriously. Every major expenditure since the Arrow program was cancelled seems to be an exercise in being fleeced.

The point is Canada doesn't have an ability to rescue anyone.
You're mistakenly assuming that you need to put your military over there to rescue your civilians. As far as I know, only the RAF did that.

You're mistakenly assuming that you need to put your military over there to rescue your civilians. As far as I know, only the RAF did that.
No, I'm saying you either have to have a military vessel of some type OR the money sitting around just in case.

Doesn't seem like Canada has either.

No, I'm saying you either have to have a military vessel of some type OR the money sitting around just in case.

Doesn't seem like Canada has either.
WE have vessels - they didn't get there in time because our PM and his administration are bumbling at very turn and failing to adequately "Stand up for Canada"... (oh yeah! That slogan is going to come back to haunt them next election!)

No, I'm saying you either have to have a military vessel of some type OR the money sitting around just in case.

Doesn't seem like Canada has either.
Hmmm, that's odd. The Irish government just put all the Irish civvies on a bus to Damascus from where they flew home.

WE have vessels - they didn't get there in time because our PM and his administration are bumbling at very turn and failing to adequately "Stand up for Canada"... (oh yeah! That slogan is going to come back to haunt them next election!)

What vessels? IIRC, you have a lot of crap destroyers that are in the shop, a lot of submarines in the shop, helicopters in the shop...

the few ships you have deployed are probably too far from Lebanon.

Hmmm, that's odd. The Irish government just put all the Irish civvies on a bus to Damascus from where they flew home.

The Irish had some money available for emergencies.

Hmmm, that's odd. The Irish government just put all the Irish civvies on a bus to Damascus from where they flew home.

To be fair, the Irish govt. was probably too busy drinking guiness to get too involved in a crisis that barely affects them. They probably did the sensible thing.

Why would a party dominated by Western (especially Albertan) social conservatives give two hoots about France even if it did help evacuate Canadian citizens?

The reaction of the Canadian government to events in Lebanon should have been more faster and more decisive. Oddly enough, we have the capability to do these rescue missions. However, they are run by DART, which is part of the Canadian Armed Forces. The government of Canada is smart enough to realise that Canada should not be sending their armed forces to Lebanon right now, no matter if they are 'crap destroyers in the shop' or the same ones we sent to help out after Katrina.

Therefore, other means would need to be utilised. Ignoring false dichomoties for a second, i.e. 'you either have to have a military vessel of some type OR the money sitting around just in case', we must look at our options. And we have more than some may realise. Canada has worked hard to extend goodwill to all nations, resulting in a strong network of allies. It is a pity that Harper took so long to utilise this resource.

I am grateful to France for helping us. Sometimes goodwill can be as helpful as an ongoing military presence in the Middle East.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaster_Assistance_Response_Team

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina

The Irish had some money available for emergencies.
Mayube that's cos our government hasn't been cutting taxes blindly.

Therefore, other means would need to be utilised. Ignoring false dichomoties for a second, i.e. 'you either have to have a military vessel of some type OR the money sitting around just in case', we must look at our options. And we have more than some may realise. Canada has worked hard to extend goodwill to all nations, resulting in a strong network of allies. It is a pity that Harper took so long to utilise this resource.

I am grateful to France for helping us. Sometimes goodwill can be as helpful as an ongoing military presence in the Middle East.
I concede. Our Prime Minister's administration if they needed heklp, could've turned to its allies if it needed the resources. That's why you have allies, for help in times of war and in times of peace.

France did us a great favour. Goodwill is the way to peace.

I'm complaing because the damn Conservatives did shit and resulted in the Canadians being the last ones out. I don't care what they use; I don't care if they put out a bunch of rafts.

What I care about is the fact that the response was slow, clumsey and they didn't start until Wednesday.

Perhaps those stuck there were conditioned to depend on the government instead of fending for themselves??? Socialism will do that to ya. (My countrymen are guilty also, so don't take it as a slam against yours)

Perhaps those stuck there were conditioned to depend on the government instead of fending for themselves??? Socialism will do that to ya. (My countrymen are guilty also, so don't take it as a slam against yours)

:rolleyes: