NationStates Jolt Archive

Thank God (har har) that somebody else read this exchange the same way I did! I was actually starting to wonder if I'd finally cracked the rest of the way...;)

Still doesn't mean I love your position (understatement ;)) but you've not done anything "wrong" in stating it.

So does Islam, so I guess pointing fingers will get us nowhere.

Islam also isn't the point. Getting defensive isn't going to get us anywhere either.

Still doesn't mean I love your position (understatement ;))

Can't say that comes as any surprise. :)


but you've not done anything "wrong" in stating it.
Yeah, I'd like to think that I've been around here long enough to know the rules.

Also, I'm not as batshit insane as some people think, and I'm not the least bit interested in killing people for being superstitious.

I would have had a lot more respect for that story if it had been asking the dude to sacrifice HIMSELF. Or if God said, "Kill your son for me," and the dude said, "No way. I have no right to give you any life other than my own."

Clearly, what that guy wanted best was to please God. He wanted it more than he wanted to cherish his own son's life.


Agreed. And this is the problem I have with the story.
But you probably guessed that.

If I were placed in that situation and I was that faithful? I'd have begged to give my life instead.

Or... who knows? It may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, and resulted in me turning from God.

The conclusion, though, is that he was not actually required to give up his son, but his strength of commitment instead led to many, many benefits for him and his descendants... whether you believe it or not.

I do have to say, in general -- I believe that I am fairly logical and well-educated, and I am also religious. I don't find that sciences and religion are incompatible. I simply look at the Bible as a series of stories that are an admittedly biased view of history (all texts are) and the New Testament as being a guide to being a decent person (don't cheat people, don't hurt people, don't use ridiculous laws and loopholes to control people, treat others with respect).

But hey, that's me.

Agreed. And this is the problem I have with the story.
But you probably guessed that.

If I were placed in that situation and I was that faithful? I'd have begged to give my life instead.

It makes me wonder if God was a little disappointed in how it played out. Maybe that was the reaction He was really looking for.


Or... who knows? It may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, and resulted in me turning from God.

I think that it would probably have been more helpful to a lot of Christians if the story had gone that way. That could have filled in a lot of blanks; how will God react if you "turn away" because you refuse to kill in his name? That's USEFUL information, and particularly so in today's world.


The conclusion, though, is that he was not actually required to give up his son, but his strength of commitment instead led to many, many benefits for him and his descendants... whether you believe it or not.

Yeah, and I can see why somebody would write it that way. It just gives me the willies because it endorses a set of priorities that I find disturbing, mainly because God doesn't seem alarmed by the fact that somebody is willing to kill their kid on his say-so. If I were God, and I wanted to help humanity "be all it can be," so to speak, then that's exactly the kind of thinking I would try to discourage!

Even if I wanted to test how much people are willing to do for me, I would be very very careful to NEVER appear like I condone or encourage killing other humans for me. There's just waaaaaaaay too much potential trouble lurking behind that.

Yeah, and I can see why somebody would write it that way. It just gives me the willies because it endorses a set of priorities that I find disturbing, mainly because God doesn't seem alarmed by the fact that somebody is willing to kill their kid on his say-so. If I were God, and I wanted to help humanity "be all it can be," so to speak, then that's exactly the kind of thinking I would try to discourage!

Even if I wanted to test how much people are willing to do for me, I would be very very careful to NEVER appear like I condone or encourage killing other humans for me. There's just waaaaaaaay too much potential trouble lurking behind that.
Ah, but you, Bottle of the Gods, appear to have more benevolence than the God of the Old Testament ever did. He's all about testing his followers in the hardest ways, and demanding sacrifices of blood from them. He is also very much about "Do it because I said so." But that's the nature of some deities, I suppose. What puts me off Christianity is the underlying assumption that the human race is fatally flawed and can never really measure up to God's expectations. If a parent were to behave toward his or her children that way the God of Christianity does towards us humans, that parent would be up on child abuse charges in a minute.

Ah, but you, Bottle of the Gods, appear to have more benevolence than the God of the Old Testament ever did. He's all about testing his followers in the hardest ways, and demanding sacrifices of blood from them. He is also very much about "Do it because I said so." But that's the nature of some deities, I suppose. What puts me off Christianity is the underlying assumption that the human race is fatally flawed and can never really measure up to God's expectations. If a parent were to behave toward his or her children that way the God of Christianity does towards us humans, that parent would be up on child abuse charges in a minute.
Maybe that's why I feel the way I do about the human characters in many parts of the Bible; I view them a lot like abused children or abused spouses. They're being brutalized, but they still are trying to win the love and respect of their abuser.

The thing that makes it even worse is that there are moments of genuine beauty throughout the Bible. There are stories where you can see why so many people perceive this God as loving, good, protective, just, and wise. Those stories make it that much more painful when God turns around and does things like ordering His people to maim and kill, or honoring men who rape their daughters, or sending down vicious punishments to those who dare to express simple human doubts.

Why does it seem like Christians want the apocolypse to happen? It's not the happy part of the bible.

Why does it seem like Christians want the apocolypse to happen? It's not the happy part of the bible.

Maybe they define happiness as standing in a pile of rubble shouting "I told you so!"

Why does it seem like Christians want the apocolypse to happen? It's not the happy part of the bible.Well, I'm not sure which Christians your talking about, but the radical evangelists like Jack Chick believe they'll be whisked away to heaven before hand, so they'd miss the more unpleasant parts of the tribulation.

Why does it seem like Christians want the apocolypse to happen? It's not the happy part of the bible.

Be sure to qualify that as "some Christians". I'm pretty sure most Christians don't want the end of the world.

Well, I'm not sure which Christians your talking about, but the radical evangelists like Jack Chick believe they'll be whisked away to heaven before hand, so they'd miss the more unpleasant parts of the tribulation.

And if you actually study bible prophecy, that is pretty much an accurate view.

And if you actually study bible prophecy, that is pretty much an accurate view.
I thought it was 3 years of joy, 3 years of hell, then the faithful get taken up and then there is the war to end all wars. Which would kind of throw the faithful right back to Earth since they are a part of God's army.

Be sure to qualify that as "some Christians". I'm pretty sure most Christians don't want the end of the world.
Well, you know. The vocal minority often sound like the majority.

I thought it was 3 years of joy, 3 years of hell, then the faithful get taken up and then there is the war to end all wars.

When you look at bible prophecy, the faithful will be taken up before the tribulation begins with the signing of the 7 year peace treaty with Israel.

This will usher in the tribulation which will last 3.5 years followed by the Great Tribulation which will last another 3.5 years.

When you look at bible prophecy, the faithful will be taken up before the tribulation begins with the signing of the 7 year peace treaty with Israel.

This will usher in the tribulation which will last 3.5 years followed by the Great Tribulation which will last another 3.5 years.
Most of my information is from a long time ago when my dad was a born again Christian.

I thought it was 3 years of joy, 3 years of hell, then the faithful get taken up and then there is the war to end all wars. Which would kind of throw the faithful right back to Earth since they are a part of God's army.
I don't know the timetable but unless all that apocalyptic stuff happens, the really, really, really good stuff like the Second Coming of Christ and the Kingdom of God on Earth and the New Jerusalem, none of that can happen. So Christians have to long for the Apocalypse, hoping they've been good enough to be whisked off beforehand or to live through it, so when the Last Day comes and the Trump (not Donald) sounds, they'll be led into Glory.

In other words, you gotta believe.

I don't know the timetable but unless all that apocalyptic stuff happens, the really, really, really good stuff like the Second Coming of Christ and the Kingdom of God on Earth and the New Jerusalem, none of that can happen. So Christians have to long for the Apocalypse, hoping they've been good enough to be whisked off beforehand or to live through it, so when the Last Day comes and the Trump (not Donald) sounds, they'll be led into Glory.

In other words, you gotta believe.
I'm trying to get in God's (if He exists) good graces with good behavior.

Well, you know. The vocal minority often sound like the majority.
I've noticed that those who are unwilling to paint Muslims in a bad light for the behavior of millions of rioting and killing Muslims are exceedingly willing to paint all Christians in a bad light for the mouths of a few.

I'm trying to get in God's (if He exists) good graces with good behavior.

Good behavior alone is not going to get you into heaven. Neither will good deeds. The only way into heaven is to accept the Lord Savior Jesus Christ and believe in him then you have a ticket into the Kingdom of Heaven. As it is written: Unless a man be born again, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I've noticed that those who are unwilling to paint Muslims in a bad light for the behavior of millions of rioting and killing Muslims are exceedingly willing to paint all Christians in a bad light for the mouths of a few.
Well, to be fair, there are plenty who do exactly the opposite. But you're right...both are equally silly.

The vast majority of the Christians I know are not happy about the prospect of the world ending. Some believe it is going to happen, and that in the end it will all be for the best, but even those folks aren't jumping for joy at the idea of the Rapture.

I've noticed that those who are unwilling to paint Muslims in a bad light for the behavior of millions of rioting and killing Muslims are exceedingly willing to paint all Christians in a bad light for the mouths of a few.
Probably has to do with how much of a foothold Christianity has in our culture. I'm not affected directly when Muslim leaders make a statement like I am when Christian leaders make a statement.

Well, to be fair, there are plenty who do exactly the opposite. But you're right...both are equally silly.

The vast majority of the Christians I know are not happy about the prospect of the world ending. Some believe it is going to happen, and that in the end it will all be for the best, but even those folks aren't jumping for joy at the idea of the Rapture.

If they aren't itching for the Rapture (which is something to be actually happy about) then I am going to have to question their beliefs for when the rapture comes, we will be with the Lord Savior Jesus Christ.

If they aren't itching for the Rapture (which is something to be actually happy about) then I am going to have to question their beliefs for when the rapture comes, we will be with the Lord Savior Jesus Christ.
I'll be sure to pass that along. :P

If they aren't itching for the Rapture (which is something to be actually happy about) then I am going to have to question their beliefs for when the rapture comes, we will be with the Lord Savior Jesus Christ.

Good thing I'm a Pentacostal. I don't have to wait for the end of the world to be with Jesus.

Good behavior alone is not going to get you into heaven. Neither will good deeds. The only way into heaven is to accept the Lord Savior Jesus Christ and believe in him then you have a ticket into the Kingdom of Heaven. As it is written: Unless a man be born again, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
I just don't believe that the most infallible being in the Universe could possibly have written something with so many contradictions. So, I'll see where good behavior gets me. I'm pretty decided on the matter.

Good thing I'm a Pentacostal. I don't have to wait for the end of the world to be with Jesus.
Oooh, BURN! I didn't know Pentacostals got cuts in line! :)

Good thing I'm a Pentacostal. I don't have to wait for the end of the world to be with Jesus.

You'll have to wait like everyone else :D

I just don't believe that the most infallible being in the Universe could possibly have written something with so many contradictions. So, I'll see where good behavior gets me. I'm pretty decided on the matter.

Then I'll be praying for you to accept Jesus Christ as your savior before it is to late.

Oooh, BURN! I didn't know Pentacostals got cuts in line! :)

And now, for an NS General religious lesson.

What's the difference between a Pentacostal and every other "born-again" fundamentalist Christian?

1. Just because you accept Jesus and are "saved" at this moment, doesn't mean you are going to Heaven. You have to keep being good, or you'll be smoking a turd in Hell.

2. The Spirit of God moves in the world today - right now. You don't have to wait for the Apocalypse or the Rapture to have a relationship with Jesus/God/Holy Spirit.

3. You have your own personal relationship, your way, and no one can question it or take it away.

Then I'll be praying for you to accept Jesus Christ as your savior before it is to late.
Thanks.

Thanks.
Another thing about Pentacostals.

I can't judge you, nor can I judge your goodness. That's between you and God, not you and me.

So keep on keeping on in your own way, as long as you are trying to be good.

Another thing about Pentacostals.

I can't judge you, nor can I judge your goodness. That's between you and God, not you and me.

So keep on keeping on in your own way, as long as you are trying to be good.
That is a pretty likable religion.

If they aren't itching for the Rapture (which is something to be actually happy about) then I am going to have to question their beliefs for when the rapture comes, we will be with the Lord Savior Jesus Christ.


There's no Rapture in the Bible.
The word is never used.

There's no Rapture in the Bible.
The word is never used.

You are right that the word is never used but by reading the texts, you can see that it is infact, alluding to the rapture.

And if you actually study bible prophecy, that is pretty much an accurate view.If a literal interpretation of the bible were correct, then yes.

Drive, you know what your problem is? You're dellussional, you think everyone can live in peace and harmony under the will of God and that's just not going to happen.

Isral; We defend them on every account for a reason, they're the only middle-eastern that hasn't bombed us. That's a feat within itself, secondly, as a Christian, you want to preserve Zion the Holy land, and how do you expect to preserve it if the middle east defiles it? Third, they're in the moral right here, for eons the Muslims have been attacking The Jews unfairly for "thier land" and look how fucking small it is! Hell we have states bigger then Isral, and they're fighting for that?! The hatred of Jews will not stop even after they get Isral, it's a copout. A bad one at that.. I also side with the Isralites because for such a small chunk of land they putup such a good fight. That's commendable.

However, the war is at home, not over there. The terrorists are barbarians sure, but they're not our biggest threat, our biggest threat is the athiests dicking up our constitution, brainwashing our children, and shitting all over our state rights. You want to talk about real Christians?! Where the hell were you when they decided abortion should be the new birth control?! Where were you when they decided a crucifix in urine was art?!

I speak on behalf of God when I say this;:upyours:

You are right that the word is never used but by reading the texts, you can see that it is infact, alluding to the rapture.


I can't see that as a fact, even though I was also taught that.
Cobbling together obscure references scattered across the New Testament does not make for sound doctrine.

If a literal interpretation of the bible were correct, then yes.

And I am one of those who do have a literal interpretation of the bible when it comes to prophecy.

I can't see that as a fact, even though I was also taught that.
Cobbling together obscure references scattered across the New Testament does not make for sound doctrine.

Well if you actually look at the texts, it does point to some event where christians who believe in the Lord Savior Jesus Christ do go up to heaven before the start of the tribulation. So what you are saying is that we should call this disappearence of christians before the tribulation by a different name other than the rapture?

And I am one of those who do have a literal interpretation of the bible when it comes to prophecy.


That's a bad practice.
Prophetic word is always laced with symbolism, taking symbolism literally will lead to weirdness.

Will a king with 10 horns actually arise? Or are the horns or even the king, symbolic?

Will there be whores and dragons battling? Or is that symbolic, not literal?

Well if you actually look at the texts, it does point to some event where christians who believe in the Lord Savior Jesus Christ do go up to heaven before the start of the tribulation. So what you are saying is that we should call this disappearence of christians before the tribulation by a different name other than the rapture?


Of all the things you should worry about as a Christian, the end times are the last thing that should be on your mind.

You should be far more worried about how you live your life, and your own personal salvation, than "who is the Antichrist?" and "I can't wait for the Apocalypse!"

So what you are saying is that we should call this disappearence of christians before the tribulation by a different name other than the rapture?

An improvement of humanity. :D

And I am one of those who do have a literal interpretation of the bible when it comes to prophecy.I know. I am also aware that you believing in a literal interpretation of the bible is no guarantee for that viewpoint being correct. It may be true, and it may not. I keep a big bottle of skepsis for when I'm confronted with literal interpretation dogma considering that a lot of the proponents of it I hear have to resort to lies to bring their points accross.

That's a bad practice.
Prophetic word is always laced with symbolism, taking symbolism literally will lead to weirdness.

Yes there is some symbolism and it takes careful study to know what is and is not symbolism.

Will a king with 10 horns actually arise? Or are the horns or even the king, symbolic?

The symbolism for the 10 kingdoms that will arise during the endtime events.

Will there be whores and dragons battling? Or is that symbolic, not literal?

I need to see the passage that you are refering too before I can give you my own opinion on that issue.

Well if you actually look at the texts, it does point to some event where christians who believe in the Lord Savior Jesus Christ do go up to heaven before the start of the tribulation. So what you are saying is that we should call this disappearence of christians before the tribulation by a different name other than the rapture?


Even so-called Bible Prophecy scholars can't agree whether this would be pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, pre-millenial or post millenial.

I've actually looked at the texts.
Frequently.

If they aren't itching for the Rapture (which is something to be actually happy about) then I am going to have to question their beliefs for when the rapture comes, we will be with the Lord Savior Jesus Christ.

If you are judged worthy. Remember that there are many who believe they are, but the gate is narrow.

It's so funny that the right wing accuses the left wing of being anti-American, when the simple reality is that the right wing is actively courting the very group which is hoping the hardest for the literal destruction of this country.
The right wing is also in favour of environmental destruction. That means that they are in favour of literally destroying their country's land for the gain of a few of its citizens. That sounds pretty anti-American to me.

Of all the things you should worry about as a Christian, the end times are the last thing that should be on your mind.

Care to point out where I am worrying about end time events?

You should be far more worried about how you live your life, and your own personal salvation, than "who is the Antichrist?" and "I can't wait for the Apocalypse!"

:confused: no where did I say I am looking forward to the Apocalypse nor am I worried about who the anti-christ is. Do I study it? Yes I do because it does fascinate me but am I worried about it? No I am not.

Even so-called Bible Prophecy scholars can't agree whether this would be pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, pre-millenial or post millenial.

I've actually looked at the texts.
Frequently.

So have I and if you have read it, you would see that it would occur before the tribulation starts. Now will this be before or after God saves the nation of Israel from her enemy to the north?

The right wing is also in favour of environmental destruction. That means that they are in favour of literally destroying their country's land for the gain of a few of its citizens. That sounds pretty anti-American to me.

Hardly.

The "right-wing" in the US is hardly in favor of "literally destroying" the land.

If you are judged worthy. Remember that there are many who believe they are, but the gate is narrow.

Yea that is indeed true.

The right wing is also in favour of environmental destruction. That means that they are in favour of literally destroying their country's land for the gain of a few of its citizens. That sounds pretty anti-American to me.

Quick quiz, hotshot.

Which political party started the Environmental Protection Agency?

Actually the quote is "Pop quiz hotshot".

For a "Christian" the majority of your posts on this forum have been really pro-militant Islam over the past year. I believe that you're about as Christian as those "Christians" who want Israel to keep bombing people.
He's about as Christian as you then.

This is a war. If I were looking for a "side" to support, I would ask myself which "side" wants to kill Christians when they're done killing each other.

That would be Hezbollah, who massacred Christians after the Israelis left Lebanon the last time.
Yesterday Israeli bombs landed, and exploded, in Christian communities in Lebanon. This campaign is radicalising the Lebanese against the Israelis, not against Hezbollah.

I'm not pointing fingers. I know Islam does but thats not what the title of this thread is. I am simply illustrating that Christianity always has had a bad name and has not just gained one becasue of a few Pastors in the US.
If Christianity has always had a bad name then why are most people in the Americas and Europe Christian?

Misconception that Christians want war. We don't but we also recognize the need for self-defense and that is what Israel is doing.
How far beyond its borders does Israel have to go to defend itself? Yesterday, 61 Lebanese were killed in Israeli attacks. 60 of them were civilians.

Shi'ite minority at 35% and sunnis at 32%

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291951723&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
I think we can all agree that between 33% and 40% of Lebanese are Christian. We don't need to be so bitchy as so argue over a few percentage points.
Sure, you can believe the head of Lebanese studies based in the UK, or you can believe the CIA's studies. I assume you will believe whichever one proves you right in this debate.
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
You're both basically agreeing that there are a lot of Christians in Lebanon. Between 33% and 40%. Does it matter which?

It is funny that a thread about a few Christians supporting a particular cause causes so much more of a violent response then all the millions of things which are millions of times worse in the world.
How can one be violent over the internet?

Yesterday Israeli bombs landed, and exploded, in Christian communities in Lebanon. This campaign is radicalising the Lebanese against the Israelis, not against Hezbollah.

Proof that they were Israeli bombs, and not Hezbollah rockets?

How far beyond its borders does Israel have to go to defend itself? Yesterday, 61 Lebanese were killed in Israeli attacks. 60 of them were civilians.

Prove that those who are civilians are actually civilians?

Proof that they were Israeli bombs, and not Hezbollah rockets?
Israel admitted to it.

Prove that those who are civilians are actually civilians?
I suppose we should discuss duck paintings.

I speak on behalf of God when I say this;:upyours:

You most assuredly do not speak for God when you use profanity and speak from Wrath; you speak for yourself.

Israel admitted to it.


I suppose we should discuss duck paintings.

The Israelis have been dropping leaflets telling people not to sleep or stand near anyone they know to be Hezbollah.

Of course, Lebanon is a small place, so standing near them may be rather unavoidable.

Quick quiz, hotshot.

Which political party started the Environmental Protection Agency?
The same one that publicly announced that they wanted to get rid of it in the 1980s.

More relevant, it is Republican politicians who get the worst environmental ratings from environmental groups. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Green party is on the left not the right?

Prove that those who are civilians are actually civilians?
How convenient, thanks to lackeys like you Israel can commit massacres all the while claiming that all their victims were combatants in civvie clothing.

The same one that publicly announced that they wanted to get rid of it in the 1980s.

More relevant, it is Republican politicians who get the worst environmental ratings from environmental groups. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Green party is on the left not the right?

Environmental groups are not always fonts of sage advice.

One reason I don't give money to Greenpeace is that they are idiots.

The Green Party essentially does not exist in the US.

The same one that publicly announced that they wanted to get rid of it in the 1980s.

More relevant, it is Republican politicians who get the worst environmental ratings from environmental groups. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Green party is on the left not the right?

And that the democrats always seem to stop legislation that would actually deal with environmental problems like the Healthy Forest Initiative that they killed.

You most assuredly do not speak for God when you use profanity; you speak for yourself.
How do you know?
Jesus is &#$@ing Metal.

How convenient, thanks to lackeys like you Israel can commit massacres all the while claiming that all their victims were combatants in civvie clothing.

Do you know anything about terrorism? Do I want a cease-fire? Yes I do but I also want to make sure that Israel's borders are secured.

Environmental groups are not always fonts of sage advice.
More so than the Republican party?

One reason I don't give money to Greenpeace is that they are idiots.

The Green Party essentially does not exist in the US.
Thus, the Republicans now are more environmentally friendly? I can't believe anyone would think that.

Of course, no parties really exist in the US other than the Democrats and Republicans. But the small, left-wing Green party do advocate pro-environment policies. The Republicans don't.

Do you know anything about terrorism?
Probably more than you.

The Israelis have been dropping leaflets telling people not to sleep or stand near anyone they know to be Hezbollah.

Of course, Lebanon is a small place, so standing near them may be rather unavoidable.
There sure must've been alot of Hezbollah guerillas in a Christian neighborhood where the only people supported less than Israel is Hezbollah.

You and Corneliu are so stuck on the "we are always right" thing, you change your argument frequently to try and prevent people from calling you out on bs.

Environmental groups are not always fonts of sage advice.

One reason I don't give money to Greenpeace is that they are idiots.

The Green Party essentially does not exist in the US.Greenpeace is hardly representative for all environmentalists :rolleyes:

You and Corneliu are so stuck on the "we are always right" thing, you change your argument frequently to try and prevent people from calling you out on bs.

Oh i know I'm not always right.

Yes there is some symbolism and it takes careful study to know what is and is not symbolism.


Some symbolism? It's almost entirely symbolism.


The symbolism for the 10 kingdoms that will arise during the endtime events.

Not if you take a literal interpretation.
I submit to you that Hal Lindsey et al that began all of the modern End Times teachings in the 70's might not have been as accurate in their interpretations as you were led to believe.


I need to see the passage that you are refering too before I can give you my own opinion on that issue.


Rev. 12 is about a Dragon and Woman

Probably more than you.

I will now call your bull.

How do you know?
Jesus is &#$@ing Metal.
He got those blue sparks bitches.

There sure must've been alot of Hezbollah guerillas in a Christian neighborhood where the only people supported less than Israel is Hezbollah.

You and Corneliu are so stuck on the "we are always right" thing, you change your argument frequently to try and prevent people from calling you out on bs.

Have I said that Israel is always right?

No.

But, I am quite certain that in the majority of cases where Israel has used weapons, they have taken some care at target identification. But nothing is perfect, and if I were Hezbollah, I would be "hugging" anyone else I could to avoid being killed.

I also believe that Israel is completely justified in attacking, and annihilating to the last person, a proxy organization that is fighting Israel on behalf of Syria and Iran.

Oh i know I'm not always right.
Sure you do. You never concede a discussion but rather morph the topic or ignore things altogether that prove you are wrong.

Have I said that Israel is always right?
Likewise with Kimchi.


I also believe that Israel is completely justified in attacking, and annihilating to the last person, a proxy organization that is fighting Israel on behalf of Syria and Iran.
Don't give me that bullshit, plenty of other people as well as myself know you have advocated the covert biological sterilization of all Muslims.

Do you know anything about terrorism? Do I want a cease-fire? Yes I do but I also want to make sure that Israel's borders are secured.
The current campaign is unlikely to achieve that. In this case violence is just going to beget more violence.

Oh know! A small minority of right wing christians support Israel in a war against the Hezbollah. That must automaticly mean that all right wing christians want the destruction of the earth and that all right wing people are christians! :rolleyes:

Same logic used as when people claim each and every Muslim is a Jihadist Borg that's part of a global hivemind out to topple the West and establish The Caliphate™.

"We are Muslim. Resistance is Futile. You will be Allah-similated."

:D

The current campaign is unlikely to achieve that. In this case violence is just going to beget more violence.

Then why don't you call up Hezbollah, tell them to stop rocketing Israel, retreat 30 km from the border, and hand over, alive, the two Israeli soldiers they kidnapped.

The alternative Hez faces is that they have already lost the majority of their heavier weapons, and will now start losing personnel at a frightening rate. With little area to retreat to, and reduced to lightly armed infantry in the open, they will be annihilated.

Don't give me that bullshit, plenty of other people as well as myself know you have advocated the covert biological sterilization of all Muslims.

The logic of your position is that Israel should sit there and let people kill them.

So superior are you!

The logic of your position is that Israel should sit there and let people kill them.
My God, Seargeant, what happened?
The strawmen, sir, th-they just appeared from nowhere.. there were just so many.. oh God, they were everywhere..

My God, Seargeant, what happened?
The strawmen, sir, they just appeared from nowhere.. there were so many.. oh God, they were everywhere..

You've posted many times that Israel should not bother firing back, or bother attacking Hezbollah, no matter what Hezbollah does.

No strawman involved. What you're saying is that if someone tries to kill you, let them.

Some symbolism? It's almost entirely symbolism.

So you think the dimming of the sun and stars by 1/3 is symbolism? Rivers and oceans turning to blood as symbolism? The earthquakes mentioned at the end of all 3 sets of judgments as symbolism?

Not if you take a literal interpretation.
I submit to you that Hal Lindsey et al that began all of the modern End Times teachings in the 70's might not have been as accurate in their interpretations as you were led to believe.

It is interesting that in most of the end time prophecies in the bible include 10 kingdoms. Daniel's dream interpretation for one includes the 10 kingdoms, his own dream has a beast with 10 horns (indicating the anti-christ and the 10 kingdoms subservient to him). Everywhere I looked in regards to the endtime events indicate 10 kingdoms. And its not just Hal Lindsey either but if you go back in time more, you would see that others had a fascination in end time events.

Is there symbolism? Oh most definitely there is symbolism.

Rev. 12 is about a Dragon and Woman

Yes that is pretty much symbolism but do we actually know that it is symbolism? I think it could be more symbolism than anything else.

The current campaign is unlikely to achieve that. In this case violence is just going to beget more violence.

Hezbollah should've thought of that before they crossed the border into Israel.

You've posted many times that Israel should not bother firing back, or bother attacking Hezbollah, no matter what Hezbollah does.
What I say and what you warp what I'm saying to say are not the same thing.

No strawman involved. What you're saying is that if someone tries to kill you, let them.
Whatever you tell yourself in your head Captain Muslim Genocide.

My2 cents: I am a Christian.. and as most US christians I am in no way related to these bad human beings.. Families are being bombed.. and these "Christians" want the War to keep going.. they want the blood to keep flowing..

Pastors urging the US government not to restrain Israel.

BBC News, Washington
19 July 2006 11:38 GMT
More than 3,400 evangelical Christians have arrived in Washington to lobby lawmakers as part of the first annual summit of Christians United for Israel.

"For the first time in the history of Christianity in America, Christians will go to the Hill to support Israel as Christians," he said.

The event was planned months ago, and is not a direct response to the ongoing violence in the region.

They see God's word being played out on their television sets

Timothy Shah, Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life

But the military conflict "certainly makes our meeting more significant," Pastor Hagee said.

The thousands of Christians in Washington will be urging the US government "not to restrain Israel..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5193092.stm


It couldn't be that they recognize Hezbollah and Hamas for the monsters they are, now could it??? :rolleyes:

If 65% are muslim, it is impossible to have 40% Christian.

5% are double agents.

Then why don't you call up Hezbollah, tell them to stop rocketing Israel, retreat 30 km from the border, and hand over, alive, the two Israeli soldiers they kidnapped.

The alternative Hez faces is that they have already lost the majority of their heavier weapons, and will now start losing personnel at a frightening rate. With little area to retreat to, and reduced to lightly armed infantry in the open, they will be annihilated.

Now, this is a good example of the false dichotomies that permeate US political thought. Either the status quo continues, or Hezbollah must surrender. DK proposes that these are the only two possible solutions to the conflict. Why must Hezbolah surrender? DK explains why in terms of convential warfare tactics, completely forgetting that Hezbollah is many things, like a political party and terrorist organisation, but it is not a conventional army.

DK: A possible third option: militants go to ground among sympathetic civilians, use the current crisis as propaganda for recruiting some suicide bombers, and the cycle continues.

Mu to you.

It couldn't be that they recognize Hezbollah and Hamas for the monsters they are, now could it??? :rolleyes:
All Arabs are terrorists, all arabs are terrorists!!!!11!!eleven

All Arabs are terrorists, all arabs are terrorists!!!!11!!eleven

He didn't mention arabs, he mentioned Hezbollah and Hamas. Which are terrorist organizations.

My God, Seargeant, what happened?
The strawmen, sir, th-they just appeared from nowhere.. there were just so many.. oh God, they were everywhere..

How is that a strawman??? Israel has given and given and given, only to have the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah send more terrorists, more rockets, and produce more anti-semetic propoganda each and every time. Israel has (I hope) finally seen the folly of negotiations with those who only use negotiations to stall and gain more power. If both sides are not negotiating in good faith, they are counter productive and will - as we are seeing now, lead to more death and destruction. If Israel had taken out the terrorists when they were weak, almost no one would have died and there would have been peace now for decades.

Well noone is going to care how many people die, as long as the Jews claim the "Holy Land" and begin the rapture right? Besides, the crusades should have given christianity a bad name.

All Arabs are terrorists, all arabs are terrorists!!!!11!!eleven

I sure hope not, seeings as I have one as a business partner.

Hamas and Hezbolla however, ARE terrorist organizations.

I sure hope not, seeings as I have one as a business partner.

Hamas and Hezbolla however, ARE terrorist organizations.

Actually they are political parties who are pissed at Israel.

He didn't mention arabs, he mentioned Hezbollah and Hamas. Which are terrorist organizations.
And he implied the whole of Lebanon is Hamas and Hezbollah. It isn't. It isn't even all Muslim.

And he implied the whole of Lebanon is Hamas and Hezbollah. It isn't. It isn't even all Muslim.

Yet they are targetting the Hezbollah, not all of Lebanon.

Actually they are political parties who are pissed at Israel.
Political parties with suicide bombers, rockets, grenades, and guns, who spend most of their day either building suicide bombs, planning suicide attacks, or indoctrinating their children that the genocide of every Jew is the only solution to their problem.

Actually they are political parties who are pissed at Israel.


Bullshit. They are terrorist organizations that have formed a political wing to look "legit".

Political parties with suicide bombers,

Actually I dont think suicide bombs are politically sanctioned. Praised maybe.

rockets, grenades, and guns,

What political party doesnt have these? BTW sounds alot like Israels.

who spend most of their day either building suicide bombs, planning suicide attacks, or indoctrinating their children that the genocide of every Jew is the only solution to their problem.

Just like the Jews indoctrinate their children into believing the Palestinians are worthless.

Actually I dont think suicide bombs are politically sanctioned. Praised maybe.



What political party doesnt have these? BTW sounds alot like Israels.



Just like the Jews indoctrinate their children into believing the Palestinians are worthless.

For godsake, even the UN recognize hamas and hezbollah as terrorist organiazations.

And he implied the whole of Lebanon is Hamas and Hezbollah. It isn't. It isn't even all Muslim.

I did no such thing. I am well aware of the demographic makeup of Lebanon. They have resented Hezbollah's presence also. They, for the most part would LOVE to have Hezbollah out of their country. I am sure they would rather not have Israel in there either, especially when the end result is at least a short term hardship from the war, but they have been trying to get rid of Syria and Hezbollah now for quite some time.

Just like the Jews indoctrinate their children into believing the Palestinians are worthless.

Really? Link me.

Really? Link me.

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

Really? Link me.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

Bullshit. They are terrorist organizations that have formed a political wing to look "legit".

Hamas is an acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or "Islamic Resistance Movement". It is a political party, regardless of what others label it as.

Hezbollah, or Party of God, is a Lebanese Shia Islamic group and political party.

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]
Those are right wing figures.

Show me the reference in a schoolbook, as the Palestinian schoolbooks do.

And now, for an NS General religious lesson.

What's the difference between a Pentacostal and every other "born-again" fundamentalist Christian?

Forgive my ignorance, but:

Which denominations of Christianity (if any) identify as "born-again"?

I have heard some people identify themselves as simply "born-again Christian," with no other denomination specified. Is "Born-Again Christian" a denomination, like "Methodist" or "Pentacostal," or does "born-again" include numerous denominations?

How do you know?
Jesus is &#$@ing Metal.
I dunno. I think there's clearly a punk rock Jesus, but there's also an emo Jesus, and a 60s-acoustic Jesus. Jesus transcends genre.

Those are right wing figures.

Show me the reference in a schoolbook, as the Palestinian schoolbooks do.

He can't. He's just another terrorist enabler and is not concerned with the truth.

Yet they are targetting the Hezbollah, not all of Lebanon.


Ah, so that's why they also shelled a Christian neighborhood.

He can't. He's just another terrorist enabler and is not concerned with the truth.
Terrorist enabler?? Terrorism is like alcoholism?

Just like the Jews indoctrinate their children into believing the Palestinians are worthless.
Um, can we please at least specify which Jews we're talking about? Because I grew up in a predominantly Jewish suburb, and I just can't seem to picture Mr. and Mrs. Rosenburg telling Marc and Lucy to blow up Palestinians. Mrs. Rosenburg baked us peace-symbol cookies for World Day in 7th grade.

Terrorist enabler?? Terrorism is like alcoholism?

I thought that the whole enabling thing was to do with 'feeders' and fat folk....or like those websites that keep saying "WMD found" every 6 months and those who need to feel justified and clean again.

Terrorist enabler?? Terrorism is like alcoholism?


Nope - but people like that are enablers just the same.

that keep saying "WMD found"

Don't get me started!
:D


But I cannot help it - we DID find them.

Only in the same "we" never went to the moon but did it for under 20,000 on a soundstage. The rest went on alien-brain research for the secret war inside the hollow earth.

Forgive my ignorance, but:

Which denominations of Christianity (if any) identify as "born-again"?

I have heard some people identify themselves as simply "born-again Christian," with no other denomination specified. Is "Born-Again Christian" a denomination, like "Methodist" or "Pentacostal," or does "born-again" include numerous denominations?


Born Agains encompass the Evangelical denominations. They are your fundamentalists, Baptists and Pentacostals mostly.

Then why don't you call up Hezbollah, tell them to stop rocketing Israel, retreat 30 km from the border, and hand over, alive, the two Israeli soldiers they kidnapped.
I would love that to happen, but I can't do it.

You really can't seem to think beyond using violence to solve every problem, can you?

With little area to retreat to, and reduced to lightly armed infantry in the open, they will be annihilated.
How many times have Israel tried and failed to do this before? They may significantly weaken Hezbollah temporarily, and that will be good in the short term. But they are turning the population of Lebanon against Israel, thus shoring up support for the Hezbollah cause.

Hezbollah should've thought of that before they crossed the border into Israel.
Are you saying that the Israeli leadership is incapable of thought, and bears no responsibility for its own actions?

Hezbollah wants violence, but I think that Israel does not. But Israel's policy is playing into terrorist hands.

All Arabs are terrorists, all arabs are terrorists!!!!11!!eleven
And you were complaining about straw men?

Actually they are political parties who are pissed at Israel.
With paramilitary wings. Ordinary parties do not possess rocket launchers.

Yet they are targetting the Hezbollah, not all of Lebanon.
Which is why the ordinary Lebanese who oppose Hezbollah support the Israeli actions. :rolleyes:

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]
Israel's politics are a real interesting picture. You have every shade, left and right. You have a wide variety of religious views also. There are extremist Rabbis like this one who advocate a "final solution" to the Palestinian problem. Then there are Rabbis who will sacrifice their own lives to save Palestinians. Please stop generalising.

Are you saying that the Israeli leadership is incapable of thought, and bears no responsibility for its own actions?

Hezbollah wants violence, but I think that Israel does not. But Israel's policy is playing into terrorist hands.

I'm sorry but if someone launched a cross border attack on my troops, I would sure as hell do the exact same thing that Israel is doing. Are you saying Meath Street that Israel shouldn't do anything when their soveriegnty got violated by a known terror group of a Lebonanese Political Party?

And that the democrats always seem to stop legislation that would actually deal with environmental problems like the Healthy Forest Initiative that they killed.
They are accursed right-wing Democrats who have taken over that party in the past 20 years.

They are accursed right-wing Democrats who have taken over that party in the past 20 years.

Now I'm definitely calling BS here.

Only in the same "we" never went to the moon but did it for under 20,000 on a soundstage. The rest went on alien-brain research for the secret war inside the hollow earth.


Aw jeeze, you had to do it!

Please take a look at the ISG report. Specifically annex "F" under the chemical weapons section. There are 53 instances of WMD's in that section alone.

Beginning in May 2004, ISG recovered a series of chemical weapons from Coalition military units and other sources. A total of 53 munitions have been recovered, all of which appear to have been part of pre-1991 Gulf war stocks based on their physical condition and residual components.

The most interesting discovery has been a 152mm binary Sarin artillery projectile—containing a 40 percent concentration of Sarin—which insurgents attempted to use as an Improvised Explosive Device (IED). The existence of this binary weapon not only raises questions about the number of viable chemical weapons remaining in Iraq and raises the possibility that a larger number of binary, long-lasting chemical weapons still exist.

http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/pdf/duelfer3_bc.pdf


Also from the recently declassified senate select committee on intelligence document.:

Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contained degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent.

---- chemical munitions are assessed to still exist.

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/pubfiles/iraqwmd.pdf

In Richard Miniter's Book "Disinformation" he documents the following:(please note this is not a direct quote.)

On June 23rd, 2004 U.S. forces seized 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium - the kind used to make Nuclear Bombs. (I have heard some here claim that this is also used in Nuclear Power plants, yet Iraq HAS NO nuclear power plants)

U.S. Dept of Energy experts also removed 1,000 radioactive materials in easily dispersed powder form - ideal for use in a "dirty bomb".

Polish troops bought 17 chemical weapons warheads from terrorists in Iraq some of which were found to be loaded with cyclosarin - which is 100 times more deadly than the already extremely deadly sarin gas.

U.S. Soldiers stormed a warehouse in Mosul on August 8th 2005 and found 1,500 GALLONS of chemical agents. It is still up for debate as to when these were manufactured and where they originated.

A binary sarin shell was exploded in an IED and the troops exhibited classic symptoms of sarin exposure - thankfully they recieved immediate treatment. If this had been detonated properly the two agents would have combined properly and killed everyone in the area.

Hans Blix himself - a staunch opponent of the war - admitted he could not account for 6,500 chemical weapons, could not prove that Iraq destroyed the anthrax it admitted to having, and his inspectors found evidence that Iraq was producing VX nerve gas as well as thiodiglycol. Blix also has testified that inspectors found some evidence that Iraq had been preparing to produce missiles that were specifically banned.

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/Bx27.htm

Before this gets out of hand, take the Iraq war crap elsewhere.

Before this gets out of hand, take the Iraq war crap elsewhere.


Sorry. You are right.

.. like those websites that keep saying "WMD found" every 6 months and those who need to feel justified and clean again.

But I cannot help it - we DID find them.USalpenstock, saying "we found the WMD" makes you feel justified and clean ??

USalpenstock, saying "we found the WMD" makes you feel justified and clean ??

Much less the same WMDs Dear Leader officially gave up looking for. Man, just goes to show how Busheviks will try to out-Bushevik Bush himself at times.

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]
"The Arabs are Donkeys and Beasts".. "The nation of Israel is pure and the Arabs are a nation of donkeys. They are an evil disaster, an evil devil, and a nasty affliction. The Arabs are donkeys and beasts. They want to take our girls. They are endowed with true filthiness. There is pure and there is impure and they are impure."
--Haaretz, March 21, 2006--
-The head of the Magen David Yeshiva in Jerusalem-
__________________________________

expect DeepKinchi to say that Haaretz is Rigth wing or something like that

Much less the same WMDs Dear Leader officially gave up looking for. Man, just goes to show how Busheviks will try to out-Bushevik Bush himself at times.

Didn't you get the memo update?

Sadaam was an ebil ducktater! This is about helping the people of Iraq!

"The Arabs are Donkeys and Beasts".. "The nation of Israel is pure and the Arabs are a nation of donkeys. They are an evil disaster, an evil devil, and a nasty affliction. The Arabs are donkeys and beasts. They want to take our girls. They are endowed with true filthiness. There is pure and there is impure and they are impure."
--Haaretz, March 21, 2006--
-The head of the Magen David Yeshiva in Jerusalem-
__________________________________

expect DeepKinchi to say that Haaretz is Rigth wing or something like that

OHMYGAWD!

Are you suggesting Israel has racists just like every other country?

OHMYGAWD!

Are you suggesting Israel has racists just like every other country?

If some random Christian says "we need to Nuke La Mecca" ..its not as if it was the Pope (or a high Church official/leader) saying that enormity.

if you read my post.. it gives the full credits to:
-The head of the Magen David Yeshiva in Jerusalem-

If some random Christian says "we need to Nuke La Mecca" ..its not as if it was the Pope saying that enormity.

if you read my post.. it gives the full credits to:
-The head of the Magen David Yeshiva in Jerusalem-

Hence Black Forest's comment :rolleyes:

Did you hear what some of the Lebanon Christians said about this?
Just as bad.

1) A married couple never had sex in an era where consummating a marriage made it official.
2) Jesus was god's son/god himself.
3) Moses moved a massive amount of water with a wave of his hand.
4) God is seemingly unable to do anything without massive slaughter. Seriously, count the fucking genocides he commited.
5) Every animal in the world, on a dingy. Actually two of them, which is woefully insufficent genetic material to propogate a species.
6) Geocentric universe!
7) Poly/cotton blends are sinful.
8) Shellfish=TEH EVUL!
9) God is all good/all powerful/all knowing/all impotent.

It's late I know but hey...

1) Mary and Joseph were not married when Christ was concieved. They had a whole bunch of regular kids later. Joseph had a whole great angst-trip over the fact he wasn't the one who knocked Mary up until Gabriel told him what had happened.

2) There's a dozen interpretations of this one. But if you believe in god then it's hardly a great leap of faith that he had offspring. At least we don't have Zeus going around screwing every pretty girl or boy he sees :p

3) 'Faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains'. Personally I never knew what to make of much of the whole story, most of it felt like an excercise in sick humour...

4) Given that he managed to get the lot of us eternal life with one death (and even then Jesus came back...). I'd say he's become a lot more efficient over time.

5) TARDIS ;) Or allegory.

6) Never got taught that one at church maybe I missed it *shrug*. it was a common belief of most people at one time or another.

7/8) Leviticus was revoked pretty much, between the Revalation and Christ's commandments...

9) I never subscribed to the 'god is perfect' thing. if he was perfect, why did he get so much more forgiving and reasonable over time? Then again, I'm the one who put forward the description of God as a 'dictator' when we considered his nature at a youth meeting :)

It's late I know but hey...

5) TARDIS ;) Or allegory.

That Arc was a Gitmo for angry genocidal trash cans :P