NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=fe5b12c28a8a30c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage


The Israeli villains' campagin of terrorism and destruction has so far claimed about 300 civilian lives. Completely despicable.

I imagine the US is radicalizing quite a few arabs and muslims by announcing that it will let the israelis continue for another week before bothering to intervene.

At the very least there needs to be intervention to forcibly stop the Israeli navy from blockading Lebanon.

Lebanon's numbers don't discriminate between Hezbollah and civilian lives so that number is quite misleading when you take that into effect.

Most civilians killed are in southern Lebanon. The area is densely populated and the Ketyushas are being fired from populated areas. Israeli batteries have counter-battery RADARs that pinpoint the origin of incoming rounds. Israel's M109A6 Paladins return fire. It isn't Israel's fault that Hezbollah puts themselves around civilians as human shields. It is Hezbollah's fault.

At the very least there needs to be intervention to forcibly stop the Israeli navy from blockading Lebanon.
It's legal during a state of war. NO truce has been signed from the 48 war let alone the other ones so Israel is legally allowed to do so.

Lebanon's numbers don't discriminate between Hezbollah and civilian lives so that number is quite misleading when you take that into effect.

Most civilians killed are in southern Lebanon. The area is densely populated and the Ketyushas are being fired from populated areas. Israeli batteries have counter-battery RADARs that pinpoint the origin of incoming rounds. Israel's M109A6 Paladins return fire. It isn't Israel's fault that Hezbollah puts themselves around civilians as human shields. It is Hezbollah's fault.
So you think this is all Hezbollah's fault?

So you think this is all Hezbollah's fault?

I think it's their fault for starting this whole mess. That doesn't excuse any wrongdoings on the Israeli side but it is Hezballah's fault.

Prior to their reckless kidnapping of those soliders there were signs of real progress in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as well as a larger agreement with the rest of the Arab world. Other than Syria and Iran every other state in the Middle East is condemning the actions of Hezballah and laying blame on them for this crisis; it's therefore clear who is to blame, and it's not Israel.

So you think this is all Hezbollah's fault?
They fired rockets and then kidnapped 2 soldiers in Israel. Yes it is. Most of the deaths are caused by Israel's counterbattery fire. That fire is quite legal as its intent is to suppress the fire from Ketyusha batteries.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=fe5b12c28a8a30c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage


The Israeli villains' campagin of terrorism and destruction has so far claimed about 300 civilian lives. Completely despicable.

I imagine the US is radicalizing quite a few arabs and muslims by announcing that it will let the israelis continue for another week before bothering to intervene.


Not another one of these. This ISN'T terrorism. This is Israel defending itself from the countless people wishing to destroy it, this is fine and Israel is doing no wrong.

It's just not fair for the majority of Lebanese who don't like Hezbollah, who don't support them (or didn't, until now) and who just wanted to build up their new country in peace.

Here are a few transcripts of Dateline on Australian TV yesterday night. Especially the interview with Prince Hassan of Jordan is very worthwhile.
http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/index.php?page=archive&daysum=2006-07-19#

Also:
THOM COOKES: Do you think there is enough being done, are the right things being done?
NAOM SHALIT, CAPTURED SOLDIERS FATHER: I can not judge this because basically I think that for the moment, there is a war going on, so naturally it is going to be a second priority for this specific days.

THOM COOKES: What do you think about the idea of people being taken hostage during a situation like this?

NAOM SHALIT: That won't be good for them because they can achieve better at the negotiation table but not in this way, with the prison issue. They can achieve better at the negotiation table and not with this kind of actions.

THOM COOKES: Do you think that the Israeli government should negotiate some kind of deal like a swap with prisoners, do you think that…?

NAOM SHALIT: Eventually they will have to make some sort of deal. And they will have to reach some agreement with the Palestinians. Thousands of Palestinians are suffering every day been killed and injured. Thousands of innocent Palestinians are suffering every day in the Gaza Strip, what good will come out of it?

THOM COOKES: Are you hopeful?

NAOM SHALIT: I am hopeful, I am trying to be, that is the only way that I can handle this issue.

They fired rockets and then kidnapped 2 soldiers in Israel. Yes it is. Most of the deaths are caused by Israel's counterbattery fire. That fire is quite legal as its intent is to suppress the fire from Ketyusha batteries.


The attacks on missile batteries arent what keep killing civilians, the attacks on suburbs are.

Israel's terrorism in blockading lebanon and destroying its airport should result in war reparations.

The Israeli taxpayer should have to pay the families of all the country's lebanese victims the same ammount that Libya was made to pay for its Lockerbie terrorism.

Not another one of these. This ISN'T terrorism. This is Israel defending itself from the countless people wishing to destroy it, this is fine and Israel is doing no wrong.

Israel's stated aim is to terrorize the lebanese people into turning against hitzbollah.

Attacking civilians and civilian infrastructure to coerce a political outcome is the definition of terrorism.

Israel should face sanctions and pay war reparations.

It's legal during a state of war. NO truce has been signed from the 48 war let alone the other ones so Israel is legally allowed to do so.

They turned away transports moving foreign nationals out of Lebanon.

Israel's stated aim is to terrorize the lebanese people into turning against hitzbollah.

Attacking civilians and civilian infrastructure to coerce a political outcome is the definition of terrorism.

Israel should face sanctions and pay war reparations.



Riiight. So should Iran, Syria, Pakistan and most other Muslim middle east nations pay the same or just get a cookie and a pat on the back?

They turned away transports moving foreign nationals out of Lebanon.
Bullshit. Then why the hell have thousands of Americans arrived in Cyprus over the past few hours?

Riiight. So should Iran, Syria, Pakistan and most other Muslim middle east nations pay the same or just get a cookie and a pat on the back?

If they want to be welcomed into the international fold like Libya, they certainly should.

Terrorism doesnt become acceptable just because Israelis do it instead of Libyans or Iranians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=fe5b12c28a8a30c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage


The Israeli villains' campagin of terrorism and destruction has so far claimed about 300 civilian lives. Completely despicable.

I imagine the US is radicalizing quite a few arabs and muslims by announcing that it will let the israelis continue for another week before bothering to intervene.

Only a week ? what are they nuts ! They should allow at least a month and send free ammo ...damm liberals ...Whats wrong with the US ?

Bullshit. Then why the hell have thousands of Americans arrived in Cyprus over the past few hours?

At least one transport chartered by the UN to pick people up was turned away by the israeli navy. I've stopped capitalising israel, heh.

The attacks on missile batteries arent what keep killing civilians, the attacks on suburbs are.

Israel's terrorism in blockading lebanon and destroying its airport should result in war reparations.

The Israeli taxpayer should have to pay the families of all the country's lebanese victims the same ammount that Libya was made to pay for its Lockerbie terrorism.
Actually, more casualties are in the southern cities where counterbattery fire is hitting. It's Hezbollah's fault for putting the rocket launchers there.

It isn't terrorism to blockade. By your definition, Kennedy committed terrorism in blockading Cuba.:rolleyes: Israel destroyed the airport to cut Hezbollah's supply line. It's a legal target in that case.

The Lebanese won't get anyting. They shouldn't have harbored Hezbollah.

At least one transport chartered by the UN to pick people up was turned away by the israeli navy. I've stopped capitalising israel, heh.
Wow, you're intelligent.:rolleyes:

That is 1 transport. What about the dozens of others?

Actually, more casualties are in the southern cities where counterbattery fire is hitting. It's Hezbollah's fault for putting the rocket launchers there.

It isn't terrorism to blockade. By your definition, Kennedy committed terrorism in blockading Cuba.:rolleyes: Israel destroyed the airport to cut Hezbollah's supply line. It's a legal target in that case.

The Lebanese won't get anyting. They shouldn't have harbored Hezbollah.

Kennedy 'quarantined' Cuba. A blockade is grounds for war. :)

So you think this is all Hezbollah's fault?


WELL DUH

Wow, you're intelligent.:rolleyes:

That is 1 transport. What about the dozens of others?

What was israel doing turning back a UN chartered ship?

Kennedy 'quarantined' Cuba. A blockade is grounds for war. :)
It was a blockade. Kennedy just used a different word to avert war.

What was israel doing turning back a UN chartered ship?
Who knows? There must've been a reason. They have allowed dozens of other ships allowed to pass through so I think your point is really dumb. The US Coast Guard turns ships back all the time. Are they committing illegal acts?

Actually, more casualties are in the southern cities where counterbattery fire is hitting. It's Hezbollah's fault for putting the rocket launchers there.

It isn't terrorism to blockade. By your definition, Kennedy committed terrorism in blockading Cuba.:rolleyes: Israel destroyed the airport to cut Hezbollah's supply line. It's a legal target in that case.

The Lebanese won't get anyting. They shouldn't have harbored Hezbollah.


Until 9/11 Hezbollah had commited more acts of terrorism against america than anybody else.....Thats what has been said, but I need some valid numbers for it.

Israel's stated aim is to terrorize the lebanese people into turning against hitzbollah.

Attacking civilians and civilian infrastructure to coerce a political outcome is the definition of terrorism.

Israel should face sanctions and pay war reparations.


Sure it is show me Israels stated aim...I know it was the UN 's aim to have Lebenon disarm hezbolla ...but the UN kinda sucks so Israel is forced to defend itself...AGAIN.

Who knows? There must've been a reason. They have allowed dozens of other ships allowed to pass through so I think your point is really dumb. The US Coast Guard turns ships back all the time. Are they committing illegal acts?

The US doesn't turn back ships chartered to save foreign nationals from artillery fire. :)

The US doesn't turn back ships chartered to save foreign nationals from artillery fire. :)

Maybe there was a risk of the ships being hit by artillery fire.

Sure it is show me Israels stated aim...I know it was the UN 's aim to have Lebenon disarm hezbolla ...but the UN kinda sucks so Israel is forced to defend itself...AGAIN.


Not at all shocking, the UN is a waste of time. Nations need to help themselves because the UN can't be trusted.

The Lebanese won't get anyting. They shouldn't have harbored Hezbollah.
This must be very difficult for you, hey. That there are Arabs which are not concerned with destroying Israel, whose main enemy are other Arabs which occupied most of their country for many years, which left them to start building up a political process and a legitimate government, and that that takes many years.

Blame Hezbollah. Blame Syria. Blame Iran. Don't blame the Lebanese government, and don't blame the majority of Lebanese who don't like Hezbollah.

Until 9/11 Hezbollah had commited more acts of terrorism against america than anybody else.....Thats what has been said, but I need some valid numbers for it.
Yeah...if you start expanding the word to include bombing soldiers. :rolleyes:

WELL DUH
.

Err. I was curious to see whether s/he thought that Israel was in any way wrong.

Until 9/11 Hezbollah had commited more acts of terrorism against america than anybody else.....Thats what has been said, but I need some valid numbers for it.


Start with the 280 plus marines and others killed in the suicide bombing of the barracks in lebenon and add up from there ..not to mention the kidnappings and other acts of terrorism..

Yeah...if you start expanding the word to include bombing soldiers. :rolleyes:


So attacking troops for no good reason is OK then? :rolleyes:

So attacking troops for no good reason is OK then? :rolleyes:
Maybe it's OK if you're from Germany

Maybe it's OK if you're from Germany



Or Iran.

Only a week ? what are they nuts ! They should allow at least a month and send free ammo ...damm liberals ...Whats wrong with the US ?

Your a putz. Damn conservatives... What's wrong with the U.S.?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=fe5b12c28a8a30c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage


The Israeli villains' campagin of terrorism and destruction has so far claimed about 300 civilian lives. Completely despicable.

I imagine the US is radicalizing quite a few arabs and muslims by announcing that it will let the israelis continue for another week before bothering to intervene.

Your also a putz.

You're a putz
Thus begins the Yiddush swear war.

Maybe it's OK if you're from Germany

thats not fair ..Nue leonstein might not agree with you but why bring his heritage into it ? he lives in Australia no ?

And BTW I am German and Italian..My Father came from Bayern with his parents after WW I ..his dad ...my Grandpop fought against his Prussian family in WW II... and My dad fought in Korea .


so whats your point ?

Your a putz. Damn conservatives... What's wrong with the U.S.?

sure shmuck whatever you say .

So attacking troops for no good reason is OK then? :rolleyes:
Hehe...I expected as much.

Did I say "OK"? No, I did not.

I doubted whether that is terrorism, because by pretty much any given definition, Marines ain't civilians.

But hey, why not. It is afterall much easier to simply paint every dissent or doubt as support for criminals than to ask questions of one's own convictions.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=492512
My personal definition of terrorism (which I think is a good one, most people would probably agree with it):
Terrorism is intentionally hurting civilians in order to create fear in order to achieve a political, social, economic or religious goal.
As you can see, many things Hezbollah has done was terrorism, but I don't count the bombing of US Marines. And if you don't count that, then the idea that Hezbollah terrorism had killed more Americans than any other group, is wrong (I believe, Tim McVeigh might have killed more for example).

Now, to come back to the issue at hand, which isn't rationalisations for violence, but the fact that so many people are dying at the moment and many are innocent, I have two more articles, one from each side:
"I Try to Be Happy in Front of my Kids" (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,427525,00.html)
Bunker Life and Rocket Attacks (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,427551,00.html)

so whats your point ?
It's no secret that I despise Germany. I'm not alone. You just can't forgive 1/3 of your population being killed. I never would even consider buying a German car.

sure shmuck whatever you say .
YES! A Yiddush swear answered with another Yiddush swear!:p

Hehe...I expected as much.

Did I say "OK"? No, I did not.

I doubted whether that is terrorism, because by pretty much any given definition, Marines ain't civilians.

But hey, why not. It is afterall much easier to simply paint every dissent or doubt as support for criminals than to ask questions of one's own convictions.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=492512
My personal definition of terrorism (which I think is a good one, most people would probably agree with it):

As you can see, many things Hezbollah has done was terrorism, but I don't count the bombing of US Marines. And if you don't count that, then the idea that Hezbollah terrorism had killed more Americans than any other group, is wrong (I believe, Tim McVeigh might have killed more for example).

Now, to come back to the issue at hand, which isn't rationalisations for violence, but the fact that so many people are dying at the moment and many are innocent, I have two more articles, one from each side:
"I Try to Be Happy in Front of my Kids" (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,427525,00.html)
Bunker Life and Rocket Attacks (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,427551,00.html)


you neglected to mention they were on a " Peace keeping mission " .

so whats your point ?
He's got a bit of a problem with Germans. I think it's projection of the irrational guilt he feels for not actually living in Israel but always giving his comments about it nonetheless.
[/bitch]

Now, let's move away from the personal attacks, shall we?

you neglected to mention they were on a " Peace keeping mission " .
Which doesn't make them civilians, does it.

As I said, I don't agree with that attack either. It just doesn't fit my definition of terrorism.

WELL DUH


I'll second that , DUH! The majority of the world inculding several Arab nations thinks it's Hezbollahs fault. The panzies have to hide in civilian communities to fight a war. Which doubly makes it their fault for any civilian casulities in Lebanon. Hezbollah is the one that should be paying retributions to the Lebanonese.

I have absolutley no sympathy, non, non at all for terroist communities that choose to exploit civilians and Islam for their own power gains.

It's no secret that I despise Germany. I'm not alone. You just can't forgive 1/3 of your population being killed. I never would even consider buying a German car.

Well not being a hebrew or jewish ...or a gypsy a gay or a slav ..or any number of the millions killed by the Nazi's in WW II ...I guess I can understand..but we are many generations removed now from the actual killers ..are we not ? When DO you begin to forgive and to heal...as I mentioned MANY Americans from Germany fought against the Nazi's ...can you place blame on an ENTIRE race ?

Thats not very "Jewish" of you is it ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=fe5b12c28a8a30c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage


The Israeli villains' campagin of terrorism and destruction has so far claimed about 300 civilian lives. Completely despicable.

I imagine the US is radicalizing quite a few arabs and muslims by announcing that it will let the israelis continue for another week before bothering to intervene.
You are, of course... in the interest of fairness, keeping track of all of the Israeli civilians targetted and killed by Hezbollah and Hamas and the martyrs brigade etc.?

What's that number again?

sure shmuck whatever you say .

Thanks I knew you'd see it my way ;-)

Well not being a hebrew or jewish ...or a gypsy a gay or a slav ..or any number of the millions killed by the Nazi's in WW II ...I guess I can understand..but we are many generations removed now from the actual killers ..are we not ? When DO you begin to forgive and to heal...as I mentioned MANY Americans from Germany fought against the Nazi's ...can you place blame on an ENTIRE race ?

Thats not very "Jewish" of you is it ?
I'll agree it isn't very Jewish, but I am far from alone. German cars aren't looked upon too kindly in a temple parking lot. I guess my generation won't be the one to bury the hatchet. Perhaps a future one will, but I still know people who went through it. You just can't forgive what occured. I blame all Germans (minus resistance fighters) for they allowed it to happen.

Which doesn't make them civilians, does it.

As I said, I don't agree with that attack either. It just doesn't fit my definition of terrorism.

suicide truck bomb on the Barracks of sleeping peace keepers...


not exactly an act of war dude.

thats terrorism ..a deliberate act to change the politics ..the Marines were not at " war "with anyone.

Go buy a new dictionary .

not exactly an act of war dude.
So, was Pearl Harbour terrorism? Or just an act of war?
Fall Weiß (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_September_Campaign)?
Operation Barbarossa?
Fort Sumter?

Surprise attacks against soldiers, regardless of what they're doing at the time, don't count as terrorism as far as I'm concerned. And since I don't have my definition from the dictionary, but I made it up myself and stick to it, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Just be careful to not dilute the word "terrorism" too much. Otherwise its use as a justification will start to look pretty hollow.

I blame all Germans (minus resistance fighters) for they allowed it to happen.
*laughs evily, holding giant Lederhosen-encased beer belly and grooming little moustache*

So, was Pearl Harbour terrorism? Or just an act of war?
Fall Weiß (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_September_Campaign)?
Operation Barbarossa?
Fort Sumter?

Surprise attacks against soldiers, regardless of what they're doing at the time, don't count as terrorism as far as I'm concerned. And since I don't have my definition from the dictionary, but I made it up myself and stick to it, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Just be careful to not dilute the word "terrorism" too much. Otherwise its use as a justification will start to look pretty hollow.

since when do hezbolla count as soldiers ? when did they form a country ?

why did you use acts of war by soldiers against soldiers as an argument ?
Country against country?

You are not that thick headed are you ?


or is it just the German in you comming out ?:p

since when do hezbolla count as soldiers ?
Well, they are a "militia" and were a party in the civil war.

But I don't think you can make terrorism or not terrorism a function of who's doing it. Otherwise you just end up with an arbitrary namecalling sort of thing.

since when do hezbolla count as soldiers ? when did they form a country ?

why did you use acts of war by soldiers against soldiers as an argument ?
Country against country?

You are not that thick headed are you ?


or is it just the German in you comming out ?:p

So terrorism is not committed by soldiers or countries, just unofficial organizations in pursuit of a goal?

Otherwise you just end up with an arbitrary namecalling sort of thing.

You do anyway. "Terrorism" is just a term attached by people to violence they don't like. There are good objective definitions, but most of the time they aren't actually used.

*laughs evily, holding giant Lederhosen-encased beer belly and grooming little moustache*

While simultaneously working on a machine of an indecipherable but obviously complex and militaristic nature...

So terrorism is not committed by soldiers or countries, just unofficial organizations in pursuit of a goal?

when Sherman marched through the South deliberately burning and pludering...was it war or terrorism ?

when the Russians murdered every German they could get their hands on behind the lines ...they were Partisans to some...but to the germans they were terrorist..especially when they rolled through Germany raping everything with two pr four legs.

terrorism is in the eyes of the beholder.

to the American people ..Hezbolla is a terrorist group to others they are Islamic hero's and freedom fighters .

I am an American I vote to kill the terrorist...they are Hezbolla they vote to kill me..thats all that matters .

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=fe5b12c28a8a30c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage


The Israeli villains' campagin of terrorism and destruction has so far claimed about 300 civilian lives. Completely despicable.

I imagine the US is radicalizing quite a few arabs and muslims by announcing that it will let the israelis continue for another week before bothering to intervene.

I guess someone forgot that Israel is at war? Why blame the US? We didn't tell Israel "yo go hit lebanon".

While simultaneously working on a machine of an indecipherable but obviously complex and militaristic nature...


while being whipped by a tall blonde love goddess in shiny leather and spiked heals ...no less ..:)

So you think this is all Hezbollah's fault?

Yes I do

while being whipped by a tall blonde love goddess in shiny leather and spiked heals ...no less ..:)

Thank God I'm half German...at least I can get some of that.

Pic Warning: Not for those sensitive to 9/11









When another certain country was attacked by terrorists:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/WTC_attack_9-11.jpg

What did they do? They invaded the country that was sheltering them. So it's ok if the US does it, but not Israel.

I guess someone forgot that Israel is at war? Why blame the US? We didn't tell Israel "yo go hit lebanon".


Well DUH its all BUSH's fault ! Dont you get it by now ?

Yes I do

Sorry. When Israel is killing civilians, that's Israel's fault. Israel may be able to justify it by reference to Hezbollah's actions, but they are the ones doing most of the killing right now.

So it's ok if the US does it, but not Israel.

No, it's not okay if the US does it, and I've argued as much on other threads.

Incidentally, that is not the topic of this one.

They turned away transports moving foreign nationals out of Lebanon.

Oh that's crap as foreign nationals are moving out of the country on boats and helicopters.

Thank God I'm half German...at least I can get some of that.

so am I ...only half of me likes tall blonde love goddess 's with whips...the other half chases a sicilian women around when I can hide her switch blade .:D

At least one transport chartered by the UN to pick people up was turned away by the israeli navy. I've stopped capitalising israel, heh.

Linky please.

I think it's their fault for starting this whole mess. That doesn't excuse any wrongdoings on the Israeli side but it is Hezballah's fault.

Prior to their reckless kidnapping of those soliders there were signs of real progress in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as well as a larger agreement with the rest of the Arab world. Other than Syria and Iran every other state in the Middle East is condemning the actions of Hezballah and laying blame on them for this crisis; it's therefore clear who is to blame, and it's not Israel.


+1

"Sorry. When Israel is killing civilians, that's Israel's fault. Israel may be able to justify it by reference to Hezbollah's actions, but they are the ones doing most of the killing right now."---Soheran


why don't you quit blaming the victim? it takes more than your dislike of israel to make them the bad guys in this situation.

So it's ok if the US does it, but not Israel.
No, because Lebanon isn't sheltering or protecting Hezbollah like the Taliban did with Bin Laden and his dudes.

The Lebanese government is a pretty new construct, and they never had the ability to tackle Hezbollah head-on. A fact though that is easily forgotten at the moment is that the government and Hezbollah had been holding talks about disarming the militia and integrating those who wanted into the army for some time. Then Hezbollah backstabbed the Lebanese government by attacking Israel.

Sorry. When Israel is killing civilians, that's Israel's fault. Israel may be able to justify it by reference to Hezbollah's actions, but they are the ones doing most of the killing right now.


so I see ....ITS LIKE BASEBALL ...you go by the score ...not by who did what to whom !

FANCY THAT....So as long as I invade another country and they kill more of my people than I kill of theirs I AM RIGHT !


Cool NEW rules....let me go get some dudes I need dead and attack Mexico.......BRB.

Excuse me ? What exactly are they doing besides letting hezbolla do what they want... when they want... where they want ?


Israel has every right to remove hezbollah from the face of the earth...and the sooner the better.

I'm going to send them a check in fact to help them pay for it .

anyone else can to ..the JDF.

At least they have the balls to do what needs to be done .

why don't you quit blaming the victim?

I will quit blaming Israel for killing Lebanese children when Israel stops killing Lebanese children. This will accomplish nothing; their brutal incursion into Gaza sparked this operation in the first place, and it was after all their last devastation of Lebanon that brought Hezbollah into existence. Killing them doesn't stop them killing you. You'd think somebody would have learned this lesson in several decades of needless violence on both sides.

I want them to stop - to propose an unconditional cease-fire and stop the killing on both sides.

Sorry. When Israel is killing civilians, that's Israel's fault. Israel may be able to justify it by reference to Hezbollah's actions, but they are the ones doing most of the killing right now.

Sorry but when a soveriegn country is attacked and 2 soldiers captured, that's an act of war. You do know that terrorists hide behind civilians? Yes in war there are civilian casualties. That is inevitable. Live with it.

You do know that terrorists hide behind civilians? Yes in war there are civilian casualties. That is inevitable. Live with it.
Or die with it, as the case may be.

Sorry but when a soveriegn country is attacked and 2 soldiers captured, that's an act of war.

Yes, I do.

You do know that terrorists hide behind civilians?

Bombing Beirut is not targeting Hezbollah, it is needless, ineffective violence that will only spark more conflict. And the people in charge of Israel already know this, are complete fools, or both.

And to think that the person in charge of this operation is the supposed left-wing peace candidate Peretz - only other illustration of the hypocrisy and cowardice of Israel's so-called peace camp.

Yes in war there are civilian casualties. That is inevitable. Live with it.

A good reason to avoid war, one would think.

They fired rockets and then kidnapped 2 soldiers in Israel. Yes it is. Most of the deaths are caused by Israel's counterbattery fire. That fire is quite legal as its intent is to suppress the fire from Ketyusha batteries.

well i suppose it is difficult to understand a country defending itself from the honorable islamofascists,happily lobbing rockets(intentionally)into civilian population centers.

put another way..if israel,just decided one sunny morn,to shell the shit out of lebanon,for no apparent reason..then i would be the first to condemn them.

if the "freedom fighters were for real "freedom fighters and not despicable cowards...then they would fire at the israili army positions,not at citys,hiding behind terrified civilians on their side.
no doubt,people terrified of them as well,seeing they have the weapons and the bloodlust to kill innocent people.

how can no one still not understand the simple fact...intentionally targetting civilians is terrorism and bullshit...then hiding behind innocents to avoid retribution is cowardly and evil...and quite pathetic when they then turn around and say..oh my god..you killed innocent people(never mind by accident)

i have a great amount of sympathy for the palistinian's,even though i am not fully informed about the situation,and i certainly am not a kneejerk israili apologist...but hizbollah in my opinion is just trying to stay relevant,and trying to goad israel into a larger war in lebanon to keep it's relevance..never mind the shitstorm they brought down on a country just getting on it's feet.or the innocent people they supposedly care so much about.

bunch of evil selfish war loving scum if you ask me.

i have no qualms about israel defending itself from an unprovoked attack,and they have every right to see that it doesnt happen again.
the warm and fuzzy militant supporters will never agree,of coarse...it is always the us or the jews at fault..no matter what..nevermind the hesmullahs jumped the border,kidnapped 2 soldiers and started firing missiles into israili cities.

the attitude some have,1 can only imagine the reaction if israel just out of the blue started bombing lebanon...but the irony is..it was the other way around,and the jews are the bad guys...get a grip.

Yes, I do.

Glad we agree on that.

Bombing Beirut is not targeting Hezbollah, it is needless, ineffective violence that will only spark more conflict. And the people in charge of Israel already know this, are complete fools, or both.

Umm Hezbollah Headquarters is in Beirut. :rolleyes:

And to think that the person in charge of this operation is the supposed left-wing peace candidate Peretz - only other illustration of the hypocrisy and cowardice of Israel's so-called peace camp.

So you are saying that Israel shouldn't defend itself?

A good reason to avoid war, one would think.

Sometimes war is unavoidable.

Umm Hezbollah Headquarters is in Beirut. :rolleyes:

And, last time I checked, Hezbollah Headquarters is not lobbing missiles into Israel either.

So you are saying that Israel shouldn't defend itself?

No, that's not what I said.

Sometimes war is unavoidable.

And sometimes it's perfectly avoidable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=fe5b12c28a8a30c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage


The Israeli villains' campagin of terrorism and destruction has so far claimed about 300 civilian lives. Completely despicable.

I imagine the US is radicalizing quite a few arabs and muslims by announcing that it will let the israelis continue for another week before bothering to intervene.
Where was all this outrage when the Moslem terrorists were blowing up buses and cafes in Israel?

And, last time I checked, Hezbollah Headquarters is not lobbing missiles into Israel either.

Hezbollah is and thus their HQ gets bombed.

No, that's not what I said.

You implied it.

And sometimes it's perfectly avoidable.

Yep. And this one was if Lebanon had done something about Hezbollah as described in 1559. They didn't.

Where was all this outrage when the Moslem terrorists were blowing up buses and cafes in Israel?

I was angered when those atrocities happened. Every time. They were atrocious, despicable, and inexcusable. Same for Hezbollah's indiscriminate rocket firing into Haifa.

Where was all this outrage when the Moslem terrorists were blowing up buses and cafes in Israel?

When Israelis get blown up its ok but heaven forbid that muslims who are supporting terror get blown up.

"I will quit blaming Israel for killing Lebanese children when Israel stops killing Lebanese children."---Soheran


"I want them to stop - to propose an unconditional cease-fire and stop the killing on both sides."---Soheran


Israel hasn't killed any Lebanese children----Lebanon is to blame for the human shields used by a terrorist group that they support. as for stopping the killing on both sides---that's a wonderful idea.......now you just have to talk a bunch of terrorists into taking up chess or hockey instead of murder. good luck with that.

Hezbollah is and thus their HQ gets bombed.

And innocent people with it.

You implied it.

I already said what I thought Israel should do:

I want them to stop - to propose an unconditional cease-fire and stop the killing on both sides.

Yep. And this one was if Lebanon had done something about Hezbollah as described in 1559. They didn't.

Nor should they have. Preserving basic democratic structures is more important than pandering to Israel and the US.

So you think this is all Hezbollah's fault?
I do. Before they kidnapped the Israeli soldiers, there were positive signs. Now, the whole fragile structure of a possible peace is collapsing. It's not to Hezbollah's or Hamas' advantage for there to be peace. War keeps them in power, money and bulletts.

Nor should they have. Preserving basic democratic structures is more important than pandering to Israel and the US.
Huh? That makes no sense to me. Care to explain?

"I will quit blaming Israel for killing Lebanese children when Israel stops killing Lebanese children."---Soheran


"I want them to stop - to propose an unconditional cease-fire and stop the killing on both sides."---Soheran


Israel hasn't killed any Lebanese children----Lebanon is to blame for the human shields used by a terrorist group that they support. as for stopping the killing on both sides---that's a wonderful idea.......now you just have to talk a bunch of terrorists into taking up chess or hockey instead of murder. good luck with that.
Yeah, that's it! Israel can do no wrong! They've never killed any innocent people, ever!

Nor should they have. Preserving basic democratic structures is more important than pandering to Israel and the US.

So Hezbollah shouldn't be disarmed as is proscribed in 1559 where it states that all lebanonese militias are to be disarmed?

Yeah, that's it! Israel can do no wrong! They've never killed any innocent people, ever!
He didn't say that. DO try to address what people actually say, as opposed to what you might wish they had said, hmmm?

Israel hasn't killed any Lebanese children

Wrong. I'd link to the pictures, but that would get me banned.

Lebanon is to blame for the human shields used by a terrorist group that they support.

And you know that Hezbollah is using human shields because...?

as for stopping the killing on both sides---that's a wonderful idea.......now you just have to talk a bunch of terrorists into taking up chess or hockey instead of murder. good luck with that.

The guerrilla group remains that it wants an unconditional cease-fire.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203908,00.html

*snip*

If they want a cease-fire then go on TV and we'll stop the rocket attacks if you stop the bombings.

"I will quit blaming Israel for killing Lebanese children when Israel stops killing Lebanese children."---Soheran


"I want them to stop - to propose an unconditional cease-fire and stop the killing on both sides."---Soheran


Israel hasn't killed any Lebanese children----Lebanon is to blame for the human shields used by a terrorist group that they support. as for stopping the killing on both sides---that's a wonderful idea.......now you just have to talk a bunch of terrorists into taking up chess or hockey instead of murder. good luck with that.
Guy walks into a bank and attempts an armed robbery. The police arrive before he can get away so he does what robbers do and takes a hostage. He has this hostage with an arm around her neck, while with his other hand is waving a hand gun. He opens fire on the police, who return fire. The hostage gets hit and killed by a round from a police shooter.

The question is... who in this situation is guilty of murder?

Huh? That makes no sense to me. Care to explain?

Hezbollah is more than a militant group, it is also a major political party, and it dominated last year's elections in southern Lebanon. If I recall correctly, it is also part of the governing coalition - it was brought in to give the impression of unity after the splits of the "Cedar Revolution." To destroy it would be to end effective democracy in Lebanon.

Ideally, Hezbollah would be disarmed, but in the current state of things in Lebanon, that is not going to happen, and to force the Lebanese government to do it would not be ultimately productive.

"And you know that Hezbollah is using human shields because...?"---Soheran

because they are scum......the only reason that anybody could launch rockets at innocent people while hiding behind other innocent people

Hezbollah is more than a militant group, it is also a major political party, and it dominated last year's elections in southern Lebanon. If I recall correctly, it is also part of the governing coalition - it was brought in to give the impression of unity after the splits of the "Cedar Revolution." To destroy it would be to end effective democracy in Lebanon.

Ideally, Hezbollah would be disarmed, but in the current state of things in Lebanon, that is not going to happen, and to force the Lebanese government to do it would not be ultimately productive.

And thus why Israel is bombing the crap out of Lebanon because they didn't do nothing about disarming Hezbollah when all the other militias in Lebanon did disarm.

If they want a cease-fire then go on TV and we'll stop the rocket attacks if you stop the bombings.
No, no! They said "unconditional." That means that YOU have to stop, but they don't. [ I speak fluent "Terrorist." ] :D

"Guy walks into a bank and attempts an armed robbery. The police arrive before he can get away so he does what robbers do and takes a hostage. He has this hostage with an arm around her neck, while with his other hand is waving a hand gun. He opens fire on the police, who return fire. The hostage gets hit and killed by a round from a police shooter.

The question is... who in this situation is guilty of murder?"---Epsilon Squadron


the robber. he is the only one in the story that acted beyond his own rights in any way.

I do. Before they kidnapped the Israeli soldiers, there were positive signs.

Like the conflagration in Gaza?

It's not to Hezbollah's or Hamas' advantage for there to be peace. War keeps them in power, money and bulletts.

Hamas, too, asked for a cease-fire. Israel refused.

Not another one of these. This ISN'T terrorism. This is Israel defending itself from the countless people wishing to destroy it, this is fine and Israel is doing no wrong.
Thank you, finally someone defending Isreal.

He didn't say that. DO try to address what people actually say, as opposed to what you might wish they had said, hmmm?
Israel hasn't killed any Lebanese children
What does that imply?

Hezbollah is more than a militant group, it is also a major political party, and it dominated last year's elections in southern Lebanon. If I recall correctly, it is also part of the governing coalition - it was brought in to give the impression of unity after the splits of the "Cedar Revolution." To destroy it would be to end effective democracy in Lebanon.

Ideally, Hezbollah would be disarmed, but in the current state of things in Lebanon, that is not going to happen, and to force the Lebanese government to do it would not be ultimately productive.
How utterly ... Byzantine. :confused:

Thank you, finally someone defending Isreal.

Finally?

No, no! They said "unconditional." That means that YOU have to stop, but they don't.

In which case Israel should agree, and call their bluff if they violate it. It isn't as if the current situation is any better for Israel - much to the contrary.

Like the conflagration in Gaza?

Yep just like there too. Israel pulls out of Gaza and how are they repaid? They get attacked yet again and have to go back in. Thanks Hamas!

Hamas, too, asked for a cease-fire. Israel refused.

Never negotiate with terrorists.

Yep just like there too. Israel pulls out of Gaza and how are they repaid? They get attacked yet again and have to go back in. Thanks Hamas!

Well, no. It was a little more complicated than that. Israel conducted a raid into Gaza, arresting two people (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/210A85AB-DA23-4A86-B49F-2243255AE8AC.htm). A Palestinian group attacked Israeli soldiers in response (and in response to numerous airstrikes). Israel then launched its invasion.

Never negotiate with terrorists.

And there are plenty of Lebanese and Palestinians right now who are likely shouting exactly the same thing - about the other side.

Yep just like there too. Israel pulls out of Gaza and how are they repaid? They get attacked yet again and have to go back in. Thanks Hamas!



Never negotiate with terrorists.

ummm...you may have a point there.

Well, no. It was a little more complicated than that. Israel conducted a raid into Gaza, arresting two people (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/210A85AB-DA23-4A86-B49F-2243255AE8AC.htm). A Palestinian group attacked Israeli soldiers in response (and in response to numerous airstrikes). Israel then launched its invasion.[/quote]

In response to this? This happened several days before Hamas launched their attack which precipitated the Israeli's response.

And there are plenty of Lebanese and Palestinians right now who are likely shouting exactly the same thing - about the other side.

Yea because we all know that no matter what, its all Israel's fault :rolleys:

What does that imply?
You took his phrase "Isreal hasn't killed any Lebanese children" without taking his explanation about why.

If someone hides inside a densely populated area and launches it's attacks from there, it's their fault when retaliation rounds hit the population they are in the middle of.

In response to this? This happened several days before Hamas launched their attack which precipitated the Israeli's response.

I don't remember hearing that Hamas specifically kidnapped Shalit, though it's possible that I missed it; for various reasons I was forced to rely on CNN at the time.

As for it happening several days afterward, that's hardly relevant; the time interval was still not great. I doubt they just randomly decided to attack; it was in response to intensified Israeli airstrikes and that incursion.

Yea because we all know that no matter what, its all Israel's fault :rolleys:

No, it's not all Israel's fault. Note that I never indicated that it was.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=fe5b12c28a8a30c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage


The Israeli villains' campagin of terrorism and destruction has so far claimed about 300 civilian lives. Completely despicable.

I imagine the US is radicalizing quite a few arabs and muslims by announcing that it will let the israelis continue for another week before bothering to intervene.
I love you go on blaming America when Canada, Australia, India, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan(not sure on this one), Romania, Denmark, Germany, Holland (I think) all agree with America and Israel.

I love you go on blaming America when Canada, Australia, India, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan(not sure on this one), Romania, Denmark, Germany, Holland (I think) all agree with America and Israel.

Don't forget the Arab League.

Yep just like there too. Israel pulls out of Gaza and how are they repaid? They get attacked yet again and have to go back in. Thanks Hamas!



Never negotiate with terrorists.

The reason Hamas attacked was because Israel broke the ceasefire. Don't you recall the massacre of a family on a beach. Do you think Hamas is just going to sit there and take it. Hamas isnt a bunch of crazy people who just attack people for no reason, the fact is, Hamas was better at keeping a ceasefire than Israel.

I love you go on blaming America when Canada, Australia, India, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan(not sure on this one), Romania, Denmark, Germany, Holland (I think) all agree with America and Israel.


These nations condemned both actions, the Hezbollah attack, and the disproportionate Israeli response. the USA is one of the only nation not to condemn Israeli actions.

The reason Hamas attacked was because Israel broke the ceasefire. Don't you recall the massacre of a family on a beach.

You realize that there is absolutely no evidence proving that Israel was at fault? You realize this I hope! I really hate conspiracy theories like these that have no basis of facts with them.

Do you think Hamas is just going to sit there and take it. Hamas isnt a bunch of crazy people who just attack people for no reason, the fact is, Hamas was better at keeping a ceasefire than Israel.

Which is complete and utter crap unless of course you believe that the Israeli navy uses 155mm guns on their ships.

These nations condemned both actions, the Hezbollah attack, and the disproportionate Israeli response. the USA is one of the only nation not to condemn Israeli actions.

Actually...they really aren't condemning the Israeli attacks. They believe that Israel has the right to defend themselves but what they are complaining about is the type of response, not the attacks themselves.

You realize that there is absolutely no evidence proving that Israel was at fault? You realize this I hope! I really hate conspiracy theories like these that have no basis of facts with them.

A number of experts in the field examined the site, and said tha artillery was compatible with what Israel uses.
This wasnt the only attack though, a number of attacks preceeded this one. Hence, these intensifying attacks provoked hamas.

If one is to take a moral and arguably human perspective, all those who commit and wage war, are wrong. The death of any human being is a tragedy, but like all tragedies it occurs. I can not claim to be the end all be all expert on this subject, and I can not claim to be unbiased. I am Jewish, and as such am inclined to support Israel.

The most commonly believed start of this current conflict was the act of Hezbollah crossing into Israel and kidnaping two Israeli soldiers. I do not know the official rules of war, but such an act would constitute and act of war in my book. A government has an obligation to its people and soldiers to protect them from harm.

From there the conflict began to escalate with bombings of Lebanon and missiles being fired into Israel. Neither act is moral and people have died because of both sides actions. Innocent people have died. While I can not be certain of the intention of every attack, for the most part it seems that Israel’s attacks are targeting Hezbollah and trying to avoid civilian casualties. Despite these intention many more civilians than Hezbolla members have died. The blood of those deaths are on both sides hands. Hezbollah provoked the conflict and has chosen to hide amongst the civilian populous, but it is still the Israeli’s who have done the actual killing.

Beyond that Hezbollah has launched multiple rockets into Israel with the apparent goal of killing civilians. While one can not expect them to have laser guided munitions it has been made clear they wish to cause civilian deaths.

So it begins to come down to numbers and intention. One can argue that the Israelis hold the higher intention ground but lower numbers ground, and the inverse of Hezbollah. So it comes down to that I guess, do you think in numbers or in intentions.

It is not as simple as this, and more complicated issues can be delved into for both sides. Hesbollah assisting the Palestinians for example, or the fact that Israel sits in the midst of a region that hates it and for the sake of its own survival it cant “fuck around”.

War sucks and its rarely black and white. Those who are taking a single side 100% are fools in my opinion, with all due respect.

Within all of that my opinion may have been a bit hazy, as is often the case in these situations, so I guess I will make it clear. I do not approve of the actions of Israel, I do not hold a love for the death they deal, but I understand it. I understand it and know why it must be done, in their eyes, and due to that I am more inclined to side with Israel on the issue.

It was a blockade. Kennedy just used a different word to avert war.


What? Like it matters? What would Cuba do if they declared war on us? Invade? Ha! That is almost amusing.

If one is to take a moral and arguably human perspective, all those who commit and wage war, are wrong. The death of any human being is a tragedy, but like all tragedies it occurs. I can not claim to be the end all be all expert on this subject, and I can not claim to be unbiased. I am Jewish, and as such am inclined to support Israel.

The most commonly believed start of this current conflict was the act of Hezbollah crossing into Israel and kidnaping two Israeli soldiers. I do not know the official rules of war, but such an act would constitute and act of war in my book. A government has an obligation to its people and soldiers to protect them from harm.

From there the conflict began to escalate with bombings of Lebanon and missiles being fired into Israel. Neither act is moral and people have died because of both sides actions. Innocent people have died. While I can not be certain of the intention of every attack, for the most part it seems that Israel’s attacks are targeting Hezbollah and trying to avoid civilian casualties. Despite these intention many more civilians than Hezbolla members have died. The blood of those deaths are on both sides hands. Hezbollah provoked the conflict and has chosen to hide amongst the civilian populous, but it is still the Israeli’s who have done the actual killing.

Beyond that Hezbollah has launched multiple rockets into Israel with the apparent goal of killing civilians. While one can not expect them to have laser guided munitions it has been made clear they wish to cause civilian deaths.

So it begins to come down to numbers and intention. One can argue that the Israelis hold the higher intention ground but lower numbers ground, and the inverse of Hezbollah. So it comes down to that I guess, do you think in numbers or in intentions.

It is not as simple as this, and more complicated issues can be delved into for both sides. Hesbollah assisting the Palestinians for example, or the fact that Israel sits in the midst of a region that hates it and for the sake of its own survival it cant “fuck around”.

War sucks and its rarely black and white. Those who are taking a single side 100% are fools in my opinion, with all due respect.

Within all of that my opinion may have been a bit hazy, as is often the case in these situations, so I guess I will make it clear. I do not approve of the actions of Israel, I do not hold a love for the death they deal, but I understand it. I understand it and know why it must be done, in their eyes, and due to that I am more inclined to side with Israel on the issue.


*Applauds*

Good answer man!

You realize that there is absolutely no evidence proving that Israel was at fault? You realize this I hope! I really hate conspiracy theories like these that have no basis of facts with them.
A number of experts in the field examined the site, and said tha artillery was compatible with what Israel uses.

For the Army sure but reports indicate that it came from a navy ship which is false since their navy doesn't use 155mm guns. Also, the reports cannot prove that it was the Israelis that did it.

This wasnt the only attack though, a number of attacks preceeded this one. Hence, these intensifying attacks provoked hamas.

Despite the fact that Hamas started the Gaza fight, I'm calling your bs.

Which is complete and utter crap unless of course you believe that the Israeli navy uses 155mm guns on their ships.


Check this site out http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2006/672/672p17b.htm

This qoute from it just shows your utter misunderstanding,
"But in its June 13 media statement, HRW said it had sent researchers to the site of the explosion, who found a large piece of jagged shrapnel with “155mm” stamped on it, consistent with the M-109 artillery shells used by the IDF."

Despite the fact that Hamas started the Gaza fight, I'm calling your bs.


When did hamas start the gaza fighting? how? Their attack was just a response to Israel Brutality.

When did hamas start the gaza fighting? how? Their attack was just a response to Israel Brutality.
Willful blindness. Unfortunately there is no cure.

These nations condemned both actions, the Hezbollah attack, and the disproportionate Israeli response. the USA is one of the only nation not to condemn Israeli actions.
Well..lets see about that:

Egypt
Foreign minister Aboul Gheit stated "Targeting civilians under the pretext of fighting terrorism is unacceptable and unjustified. Israeli practices violate international law. We condemn any military action that targets civilians. We consider it a terrorist act, regardless of who the civilians are or its source." [2] Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian president, condemned the Israeli military aggression in Lebanon but also indirectly criticised Hezbollah for harming Arab interests. [3]

India
The Ministry of External Affairs expressed concern over the growing tensions in Lebanon and urged all parties to end the violence in favor of peaceful negotiation. "We are seriously concerned about the escalating tension in West Asia as a result of developments on the Israel-Lebanese border since yesterday which have the potential to inflame the region further and widen the conflict," the statement issued said. "India condemns the abduction of two Israeli soldiers on 12 July, 2006 by Lebanese militants and calls for their immediate release." [6]

Japan
Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi urged restraint and stated “I understand the anger of the Israelis, but I hope you will not seek an eye for an eye and keep in mind the importance of peace.” [12]

Jordan
A statement from the Jordanian Government said "Jordan stands against whoever exposes the Palestinian people and their cause, Lebanon and its sovereignty to unexpected dangers. Israel's use of force against unarmed civilians and the outcome in terms of the human loss and destruction of civil institutions." [2] Jordan has also denounced Hezbollah's actions believing them to be harmful to Arab interests in the region. [13]

Saudi Arabia
A Saudi official quoted by the Saudi Press Agency accused Hezbollah guerrillas - without naming them - of "uncalculated adventures" that precipitated the latest Middle East crisis. "The kingdom sees that it is time for those elements to alone shoulder the full responsibility for this irresponsible behavior and that the burden of ending the crisis falls on them alone."[18]

Denmark
The Danish foreign minister Per Stig Møller said that the Lebanese government has to take responsibility to prevent further terror attacks from Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. Israel has also the right to act in self defense, but are also obligated to not exaggerate with the power of the attack. [29]

Germany
Chancellor Angela Merkel says "We call on the powers in the region to seek to bring about a de-escalation of the situation. We cannot confuse cause and effect. The starting point is the capture of the Israeli soldiers. It is important that the government in Lebanon, which is on a peaceful path, should be strengthened, but it must be made clear that the capture [of the soldiers] cannot be tolerated. The attacks did not start from the Israeli side, but from Hezbollah's side." [2] Sunday, German Development Minister Heidemarie Wieczorek-Zeul has voiced criticism against Israel's attacks on civilian infrastructure in Lebanon, calling it "completely unacceptable." [35]

Greece
Spokesman Evangelos Antonaros urged Hezbollah to release the captured Israeli soldiers. "Greece expresses its serious concern and is intensely troubled," the spokesman said. "It is vital, to stop the (situation) worsening, Hezbollah must immediately release the soldiers taken hostage. At the same time, Greece calls on the government of Israel to avoid the use of excessive and pointless force which cannot provide a solution to the problem." [36]

Netherlands
The Dutch foreign minister Bernard Bot has expressed "understanding for Israel's reaction" but said "it would be hard to support Israel in case there will be many civilian casualties". Moreover Israel should try everything it can to minimize civilian casualties.

Romania
On July 13th, the Romanian Foreign Affairs Ministry (MAE) voiced concern over the crisis. The ministry called on the involved parties to show calm and refrain from any actions that might further deteriorate the situation and might lead to new victims and inflict material damages. The MAE also stated that Hezbollah should free the two captured Israeli soldiers immediately and unconditionally and stop the attacks on Israel.[42] [43]

On July 19th, the Romanian President Traian Băsescu said in a press conference that we are starting to face a humanitarian crisis and urged UN Security Council to quickly adopt a solution to put an end to the insecurity in the area. "We recognize Israel’s right to security but it has generated a humanitarian crisis",[44] "The parts must protect the civilians", and "The incapacity of the international community to enforce the UN resolutions led to the current situation" Băsescu said. Also present, the Foreign Affairs Minister Răzvan Ungureanu said that "it is absolutely necessary the hostilities to cease".[45]

Canada
Prime Minister Stephen Harper has said “Israel has the right to defend itself,” as well as “I think Israel's response under the circumstances has been measured.” Regarding resolution to the conflict he has stated “It's essential that Hezbollah and Hamas release their Israeli prisoners and any countries in that area that have influence on these organizations should encourage an end to violence and recognize and encourage the recognition of Israel's right to exist.” [60] Harper's characterisation of Israel's response as "measured" created controversy in Canada. On July 17, 2006, Harper noted that the situation had deteriorated since his initial comments, but that it was difficult for Israel to fight "non-governmental forces" when they are embedded in the civilian population. Harper added that "the attack [on Israel] is the cause of this immediate conflict," and that "Israel must show restraint as part of the solution but it is essential that the attacks against Israel would stop and it is essential that Israeli soldiers be returned to Israel." [61] [62] On July 17, a group of protesters, primarily expatriate Lebanese, gathered in front of the Israeli consulate in Montreal and protested the continued bombing in Lebanon. Opinions on the conflict are mixed in Canada, as is reflected by the editorial content of the nation's media. Some outlets, such as the Toronto Star, have criticized Israel's response to Hezbollah's actions as disproportionate, while others, such as the National Post, have come out in support of the scope of Israel's military action. Commentators in other outlets (for example, the Globe and Mail and the CBC) have represented a variety of views.

United States
The United States has blamed Hezbollah and Syria for the crisis .[63]President George W. Bush said "I want the world to address the root cause of the problem, and the root cause of the problem is Hezbollah." Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs David Welch condemns what he calls a “dangerous escalation” and calls for the release of the Israeli soldiers.[64] United States Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said, “We must hold the governments of Syria and Iran accountable for their continued support to Hezbollah. So long as these governments are failing to live up to their responsibilities, no one should question the right of the government of Israel to act in self-defense against terrorists operating from Lebanon.” Frist also said that the Lebanese government should uphold its responsibility under a United Nations resolution to make sure its territory isn’t being used for Hezbollah or other groups.[65][66] President Bush remarked [67] that Israel has the right to defend itself. “The soldiers need to be returned,” he said. “It’s really sad where people are willing to take innocent life in order to stop that progress (for peace). As a matter of fact, it’s pathetic.” He also said, "The democracy of Lebanon is an important part of laying a foundation of peace in that region," and "The concern is that any activities by Israel to protect herself will weaken the (Siniora) government."[68] The President also rejected Lebanon's calls for a cease-fire in escalating Mideast violence on Friday, saying only that Israel should try to limit civilian casualties as it steps up attacks on its neighbor. "The president is not going to make military decisions for Israel," said White House spokesman Tony Snow.[69]. Bush also told UK PM Tony Blair that "We're not blaming Israel and we're not blaming the Lebanese government" in a conversation that was intended to be private, but was picked up by the G8 television network. [70]

On 15 July President Bush called upon Syria to exert its influence over Hezbollah militants to get them to "lay down their arms". US President George W. Bush rejected calls for a ceasefire stating only that Israel should try to limit civilian casualties as it steps up attacks on its neighbor.[71]

On 15 July the United States sent a security team to Beirut in an effort to begin planning the evacuation of American citizens from Lebanon to Cyprus.[72] The U.S. is believed to be using the facilities at the British Sovereign Base Areas on Cyprus, which includes RAF Akrotiri. [73]

On July 17, President Bush and Prime Minister Blair were caught having a candid conversation at the G8 conference when their comments were broadcast by a live microphone. "What about Kofi Annan?" Bush asked. "I don't like the sequence of it. His attitude is basically cease-fire and everything else happens." "I think the thing that is really difficult is you can't stop this unless you get this international presence agreed," Blair responded. Bush reasserted his view that the impetus needed to be placed on Hezbollah to end the conflict. "What they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit, and it's over," Bush told Blair.[74]

US Ambassador to the UN John Bolton said there was no moral equivalence between the civilian casualties from the Israeli raids in Lebanon and those killed in Israel from "malicious terrorist acts". Asked to comment on the deaths in an Israeli air strike of eight Canadian citizens in southern Lebanon Sunday, he said: "it is a matter of great concern to us ...that these civilian deaths are occurring. It's a tragedy." "I think it would be a mistake to ascribe moral equivalence to civilians who die as the direct result of malicious terrorist acts," he added, while defending as "self-defense" Israel's military action, which has had "the tragic and unfortunate consequence of civilian deaths".[75]

Australia
Prime Minister John Howard has stated that he is "appalled at the loss of life on both sides". However, he blamed the conflict on Hezbollah's breaches of UN resolutions and international law. [76]

Willful blindness. Unfortunately there is no cure.


What are you suggesting

Check this site out http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2006/672/672p17b.htm

This qoute from it just shows your utter misunderstanding,
"But in its June 13 media statement, HRW said it had sent researchers to the site of the explosion, who found a large piece of jagged shrapnel with “155mm” stamped on it, consistent with the M-109 artillery shells used by the IDF."

And yet there are several posts on this board which show that HRW never saw the actual piece. Also, as I said before which you clearly ignored, the Navy does not use such pieces and Hamas claims that it was a naval vessle that fired the shell. So if we are to believe that it was a naval vessel that fired the so called shell then we can clearly assume that it did not come from Israel as their ships do not fire 155mm shells.

As I said, I'm calling your bs.

When did hamas start the gaza fighting? how? Their attack was just a response to Israel Brutality.

So do you support hamas and Hezbollah?

The Atlantian islands,
Most of those nations still call on Israel not to use disproportionate force.

So you think this is all Hezbollah's fault?
They're certainly the one's who fanned the flames. Many of Israel's biggest enemies even agree on that.

So do you support hamas and Hezbollah?

I havent said anything about hezbollah, so dont put shit in my mouth.
Hamas didnt attack for no reasons, their attack was a response.
By saying that, does that make me a supporter?

The Atlantian islands,
Most of those nations still call on Israel not to use disproportionate force.

But it didn't say that they couldn't attack.

The Atlantian islands,
Most of those nations still call on Israel not to use disproportionate force.
And how do they determine exactly what "disproportionate force" is? Is it unreasonable to drop a bomb on the location where a half dozen Katyusha Rockets were just launched? Is it disproportionate to cripple the weapons delivery infrastructure? How does one define disproportionate when another group is using force against you?

I havent said anything about hezbollah, so dont put shit in my mouth.
Hamas didnt attack for no reasons, their attack was a response.
By saying that, does that make me a supporter?

Since it seems that you do not understand that Hamas never needs a reason to attack Israel....

Do you support Hezbollah and Hamas.

And yet there are several posts on this board which show that HRW never saw the actual piece. Also, as I said before which you clearly ignored, the Navy does not use such pieces and Hamas claims that it was a naval vessle that fired the shell. So if we are to believe that it was a naval vessel that fired the so called shell then we can clearly assume that it did not come from Israel as their ships do not fire 155mm shells.

As I said, I'm calling your bs.

So, if it didnt come from the Navy, the attack must not have come from Israel at all.
This attack is consistent with Israeli artillery, hence making it Israels fauly. Who else do you suggest fired 155mm artillery?

Since it seems that you do not understand that Hamas never needs a reason to attack Israel....

Do you support Hezbollah and Hamas.

How many times do I have to tell you, Hamas attacks came as a response to Israeli Aggression.
I havent said anything about hezbollah, so stop suggesting that I support them.

So, if it didnt come from the Navy, the attack must not have come from Israel at all.
This attack is consistent with Israeli artillery, hence making it Israels fauly. Who else do you suggest fired 155mm artillery?

Do you know how many 155mm shells there are lying around? Doesn't prove it came from Israel either nor does it prove that it did. The reports I have seen point to the fact that it did not come from the Israeli navy as hamas claims. That's the rub right there.

Since it seems that you do not understand that Hamas never needs a reason to attack Israel....

Do you support Hezbollah and Hamas.

I thought hamas always had a reason to attack israel, that israel was illegally occupying palestinian land vis a vis the west bank, now gaza again.

Looks to me like hezbollah's attack on the israeli military which has led to israeli reprisal attacks against civilians was in response to israel's reprisal attacks against gaza after the palestinians attacked and captured some israeli military targets.

I dont support destroying israel or attacking israeli civilians, but israel is in the wrong in what its done the last couple weeks, and it is in the wrong in the occupied territories.

How many times do I have to tell you, Hamas attacks came as a response to Israeli Aggression.
I havent said anything about hezbollah, so stop suggesting that I support them.

Ok forget Hezbollah. Do you support Hamas? Stop dodging and answer. Its not a difficult question to answer.

Both sides need to use restraint, but Israel cleary is just in invading Lebanon. Hezbola has been hiding behind the 'Soverignty of Nations" thingy for WAAAYYY too long

Both sides need to use restraint, but Israel cleary is just in invading Lebanon. Hezbola has been hiding behind the 'Soverignty of Nations" thingy for WAAAYYY too long

And yet, Lebanon is not actually invaded. Excursions have been launched but no permanent troops have crossed into lebanon. Israel doesn't want to do that at all.

The Atlantian islands,
Most of those nations still call on Israel not to use disproportionate force.

But it didn't say that they couldn't attack.

Right, it said they support Israel, the arabs started it...but told Israel to relax a bit...not to not defend themselves.

What? Like it matters? What would Cuba do if they declared war on us? Invade? Ha! That is almost amusing.
Cuba wouldn't, but the USSR would and that would definitely be something to ponder. It is obvious you know **** about history.

And yet, Lebanon is not actually invaded. Excursions have been launched but no permanent troops have crossed into lebanon. Israel doesn't want to do that at all.
Still... It may just come to an occupation if the Arab world doesn't quiet down.

Ok forget Hezbollah. Do you support Hamas? Stop dodging and answer. Its not a difficult question to answer.


I dont support Hamas, I support the Palestinian people.

So, if it didnt come from the Navy, the attack must not have come from Israel at all.
This attack is consistent with Israeli artillery, hence making it Israels fauly. Who else do you suggest fired 155mm artillery?
Is this the beach incident a couple of weeks back? You know, the one where the kids were playing on a beach Hamas had littered with Soviet OZM Anti-Personnel Bounding Mines? And given the nature of how the HRW guy decided it was a 155mm AP Shell, one might also draw the exact same conclusion that it was an OZM. His basis for his analysis was by virtue of the fact that the wounds were on the upper portion of the body, he made the claim that a landmine would not have made such an injury because it would explode upwards. That would be the case if it were a ground fragmenting mine, but the Soviet OZM Bounding Mine can bound anywhere from half a meter to two full meters up. That would certainly cause upper body wounds.

Still... It may just come to an occupation if the Arab world doesn't quiet down.

Israel doesn't want to occupy Lebanon. After all, they were there for 18 years and left due to rising casualties.

I dont support Hamas, I support the Palestinian people.
And the Palestinian people support Hamas. You -> Palestinians -> Hamas. One degree of separation is not all that much as far as beliefs are concerned.

Israel doesn't want to occupy Lebanon. After all, they were there for 18 years and left due to rising casualties.
THey may not want to, but as I said, they may have to, just to prove to the cursed Jihadists that they mean buisness. And why the @#!? aren't we supporting them? Obviously, Hezbola works out of Syria, Lebanon and Iran.

I dont support Hamas, I support the Palestinian people.

In that case, do you agree that Hamas and Al Aqsa Martyers Brigade are stopping any hope for peace as well as a 2 state solution?

And the Palestinian people support Hamas. You -> Palestinians -> Hamas. One degree of separation is not all that much as far as beliefs are concerned.

Not all Palestinians support Hamas.

Is this the beach incident a couple of weeks back? You know, the one where the kids were playing on a beach Hamas had littered with Soviet OZM Anti-Personnel Bounding Mines? And given the nature of how the HRW guy decided it was a 155mm AP Shell, one might also draw the exact same conclusion that it was an OZM. His basis for his analysis was by virtue of the fact that the wounds were on the upper portion of the body, he made the claim that a landmine would not have made such an injury because it would explode upwards. That would be the case if it were a ground fragmenting mine, but the Soviet OZM Bounding Mine can bound anywhere from half a meter to two full meters up. That would certainly cause upper body wounds.

Hamas would not kill its own people. These conspiracy theories are a load of crap.

THey may not want to, but as I said, they may have to, just to prove to the cursed Jihadists that they mean buisness. And why the @#!? aren't we supporting them? Obviously, Hezbola works out of Syria, Lebanon and Iran.

The US is supporting Israel :rolleyes:

And the Palestinian people support Hamas. You -> Palestinians -> Hamas. One degree of separation is not all that much as far as beliefs are concerned.
Brilliant. You may now draw to the conclusion that Arabs cannot handle democracy, as they will only elect orginizztions like Hamas. THey need some good old fasioned tyranny, Machiavelli style...

:sniper: they have every right to blast them bastards out they started it dont blame them for returning fire. :upyours:

Hamas would not kill its own people. These conspiracy theories are a load of crap.
They didn't intend to kill their own people. What they intended to do was prevent Israeli spec-ops teams from inserting on that beach. Only problem being that they didn't mark it very well. I'm not charging conspiracy, I'm charging stupidity.

Hamas would not kill its own people. These conspiracy theories are a load of crap.
Really? The past says otherwise. Muslims have always been willing to sacrifice their own people to further their own agendas, YOU sir are the one blinded by propaganda.

In that case, do you agree that Hamas and Al Aqsa Martyers Brigade are stopping any hope for peace as well as a 2 state solution?

In some cases they may be slowing this down. But, Israel is the main cause of stopping the 2 state solution.

Hamas would not kill its own people.

HAHA! Oh this is rich. *dies of laughter*! Ever hear of suicide bombings? Hamas killing their own members to get at a few Israelis. Yea they don't kill their own people. :rolleyes:

[qoute]These conspiracy theories are a load of crap.[/QUOTE]

The only conspiray theorist here is you.

The US is supporting Israel :rolleyes:
Not openly. I am talking about another Crusade, but come people call me crazy...

Brilliant. You may now draw to the conclusion that Arabs cannot handle democracy, as they will only elect orginizztions like Hamas. THey need some good old fasioned tyranny, Machiavelli style...
My comment was out of line. But you're taking my childish insult out of context.

Brilliant. You may now draw to the conclusion that Arabs cannot handle democracy, as they will only elect orginizztions like Hamas. THey need some good old fasioned tyranny, Machiavelli style...

They've had Machiavellian tyranny for the past century or so...I don't quite think that's the solution seeing as how it contributes to the problem. :p

My comment was out of line. But you're taking my childish insult out of context.
Of course I am. What they really need is the moralistic democracy outlined by said Italian genius in the Discourses

:sniper: they have every right to blast them bastards out they started it dont blame them for returning fire. :upyours:

Welcome to the forums!

Please try to use caps, a bit of grammer, and refrain from smileys if you are trying to be serious. Besides that, hope you have a great time here.

Edit: Silly Spelling error :rolleyes: Dont I look smart.

HAHA! Oh this is rich. *dies of laughter*! Ever hear of suicide bombings? Hamas killing their own members to get at a few Israelis. Yea they don't kill their own people. :rolleyes:

[qoute]These conspiracy theories are a load of crap.

The only conspiray theorist here is you.[/QUOTE]


Oh, so hamas forces suicide bombers to do what they do.
These suicide bombers do it under their own will, hence the "suicide" in the name "suicide bomber".

Welcome to the forums!

Please try to use caps, a bit of grammger, and refrain from smileys if you are trying to be serious. Besides that, hope you have a great time here.
lol

The only conspiray theorist here is you.


Oh, so hamas forces suicide bombers to do what they do.
These suicide bombers do it under their own will, hence the "suicide" in the name "suicide bomber".[/QUOTE]
Actually, they do it because their religion falsely leads them to believe that they will gain salvation from their actions, so they are blinded by Islamic propaganda....

In some cases they may be slowing this down. But, Israel is the main cause of stopping the 2 state solution.

Yea uh uh. Israel rewards true peace. Here's some history for you.

When Egypt and Israel signed their peace treaty, Egypt got the Sinai Peninsula back. When Israel signed their peace treaty with Jordan, Jordan got land back as well.

So who is really stopping the 2 state solution? Everytime an agreement is reached on achieving that 2 state solution goal, terrorists and not Israel sabotage that.

In some cases they may be slowing this down. But, Israel is the main cause of stopping the 2 state solution.
*cough* CAMP DAVID *cough*

Are you really that biased that you ignore facts?

Oh, so hamas forces suicide bombers to do what they do.
These suicide bombers do it under their own will, hence the "suicide" in the name "suicide bomber".

While it is most likely the case most bombers carry out their missions under their own will, you can not be 100% sure that that will is still really their own. I have a good friend from Afghanistan and he says brain washing is very VERY common.

Not openly. I am talking about another Crusade, but come people call me crazy...

We are supporting them openly and a crusade is not needed.

I imagine the US is radicalizing quite a few arabs and muslims by announcing that it will let the israelis continue for another week before bothering to intervene.
:headbang:
pissed if the US does intervene and pissed when the US doesnt intervene

Actually, they do it because their religion falsely leads them to believe that they will gain salvation from their actions, so they are blinded by Islamic propaganda....

No exactly, Israeli occupation and oppression has created a breeding ground for anger.
These people have lost all their hope, some may have had their own families killed. Hence they believe the only way to respond is to sacrifice themselves.

Yea uh uh. Israel rewards true peace. Here's some history for you.

When Egypt and Israel signed their peace treaty, Egypt got the Sinai Peninsula back. When Israel signed their peace treaty with Jordan, Jordan got land back as well.

So who is really stopping the 2 state solution? Everytime an agreement is reached on achieving that 2 state solution goal, terrorists and not Israel sabotage that.

When did Jordan get land back?

*cough* CAMP DAVID *cough*

Are you really that biased that you ignore facts?

So, by building a apartheid wall, and expanding settlements in the West Bank, Israel is paving the road to peace?

:headbang:
pissed if the US does intervene and pissed when the US doesnt intervene


Pissed when the US does something wrong by intervening where it shouldnt or how it shouldnt.

Pissed when the US does something wrong by not intervening where and how it should.

Honesty, Slaughterhouse five, Honesty!

No exactly, Israeli occupation and oppression has created a breeding ground for anger.
These people have lost all their hope, some may have had their own families killed. Hence they believe the only way to respond is to sacrifice themselves.
All because a drug addict name Muhammed was jeaslous of Christianity so made up a violent religion that he could use to dominate his world. Thats it, end of story.

When did Jordan get land back?
The land in the Arava specifically, plus a level of control over water rights regarding the Jordan River.

When did Jordan get land back?
They didn't, but they still made peace with Israel. The only Jordanian land taken by Israel is the West Bank. It was Jordanian Land, not Palestinian land because Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1948. There never has been a Palestinian State.

When did Jordan get land back?

Sorry they didn't. It was a nonbelligerency agreement in 1994. However, this did resolve territorial disputes between them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Jordan_Treaty_of_Peace

All because a drug addict name Muhammed was jeaslous of Christianity so made up a violent religion that he could use to dominate his world. Thats it, end of story.

Are being serious.
You are truly an ignorant son of a bitch.

All because a drug addict name Muhammed was jeaslous of Christianity so made up a violent religion that he could use to dominate his world. Thats it, end of story.

Sigh... this helps nothing.

No exactly, Israeli occupation and oppression has created a breeding ground for anger. These people have lost all their hope, some may have had their own families killed. Hence they believe the only way to respond is to sacrifice themselves.

People have been repressed before and didn't resort to murdering civilians; they either used peaceful methods or armed resistance against occupying soliders, not bombs in the middle of nightclubs or shopping malls. The reason why people commit these attacks against Israel is because hateful, extremist organizations direct their people's anger away from the real enemies like Hamaitself or the repressive states of the Islamic world that treat the Palestinians like garbage.

The real enemy of the Palestinian people is the Arab states, not Israel. Iran and Syria are perfectly willing to prolong the suffering of the Palestinians in order to advance their cause of militant fundamentalism under the guise of national liberation.

Pissed when the US does something wrong by intervening where it shouldnt or how it shouldnt.

Pissed when the US does something wrong by not intervening where and how it should.

Honesty, Slaughterhouse five, Honesty!

tell you what, for now on you own the UNited States. you tell us what to do with our country and where we need to intervene

because obviously you must know everything thats right and everything thats wrong

stopping a man that has threatened the United States (our country) and has killed thousands is obviously wrong.

where stopping a country that is a very good ally with the united states and is taking action rather then standing idle while a terrorist organization continues to attack it is very very wrong.

They didn't, but they still made peace with Israel. The only Jordanian land taken by Israel is the West Bank. It was Jordanian Land, not Palestinian land because Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1948. There never has been a Palestinian State.

Im sick of people saying there was never a palestinian state. THis is purely technicality. Just because the palestinians were constantly under occupation, by the ottomans, and then the british, does this make the land not theirs.
People who lived there, was that land never their home, even if their ancestors from generations back lived their?

No exactly, Israeli occupation and oppression has created a breeding ground for anger.
These people have lost all their hope, some may have had their own families killed. Hence they believe the only way to respond is to sacrifice themselves.


Yeah.....

So, for some reason, for 16 months they forgot 60 years of "oppression" and "occupation".

And now they start screaming again. Ohwell, Israel has it's own bullet factory (IMI, they sell it over here at Walmart under the winchester brand GOOD stuff!), keep sending your sons to die needlessly and they will.

People have been repressed before and didn't resort to murdering civilians; they either used peaceful methods or armed resistance against occupying soliders, not bombs in the middle of nightclubs or shopping malls. The reason why people commit these attacks against Israel is because hateful, extremist organizations direct their people's anger away from the real enemies like Hamaitself or the repressive states of the Islamic world that treat the Palestinians like garbage.

The real enemy of the Palestinian people is the Arab states, not Israel. Iran and Syria are perfectly willing to prolong the suffering of the Palestinians in order to advance their cause of militant fundamentalism under the guise of national liberation.


Since when is anti-fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood-smashing syria in the business of promoting fundamentalism... ?

Reality check.

Im sick of people saying there was never a palestinian state. THis is purely technicality. Just because the palestinians were constantly under occupation, by the ottomans, and then the british, does this make the land not theirs.

1) Palestine was never a state. That much is true.
2) There is no such thing as a palestinian race
3) What makes the land theirs?

People who lived there, was that land never their home, even if their ancestors from generations back lived their?

In that case, then a case can be made that it actually belongs to the Jews as well for Jews also lived and had a kingdom in that area.

People have been repressed before and didn't resort to murdering civilians; they either used peaceful methods or armed resistance against occupying soliders, not bombs in the middle of nightclubs or shopping malls. The reason why people commit these attacks against Israel is because hateful, extremist organizations direct their people's anger away from the real enemies like Hamaitself or the repressive states of the Islamic world that treat the Palestinians like garbage.

The real enemy of the Palestinian people is the Arab states, not Israel. Iran and Syria are perfectly willing to prolong the suffering of the Palestinians in order to advance their cause of militant fundamentalism under the guise of national liberation.


[bowdown]

because obviously you must know everything thats right and everything thats wrong


Sometimes things are crystal clear :)

Since when is anti-fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood-smashing syria in the business of promoting fundamentalism... ? Reality check.

Syria supplies Hezballah with aid as a means of preserving its control over Lebanon. It's also a close ally of fundamentalist Iran, which more than confirms their willingness to promote fundamentalist ideology in the Middle East. They may not support it personally, but they're sure as hell willing to aid the fundamentalists if it means launching Damascus back in to the international limelight.

Im sick of people saying there was never a palestinian state. THis is purely technicality. Just because the palestinians were constantly under occupation, by the ottomans, and then the british, does this make the land not theirs.
People who lived there, was that land never their home, even if their ancestors from generations back lived their?
Many, many Jewish families have also lived in Israel for many generations. Some have been there since the early eighteen-hundreds. They purchased the land from the local Arabs. How far must one go back to determine who is the rightful holder of contested land? 100 years? 200 years? 1000 years? 5000 years? How long?

1) Palestine was never a state. That much is true.
2) There is no such thing as a palestinian race
3) What makes the land theirs?


You second point, there was no palestinian race, how do you justify that.
Who used to live on that land? Why cant the be called Palestinian.

Since when is anti-fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood-smashing syria in the business of promoting fundamentalism... ?

Reality check.
They benefit from the conflict. It's a vital tool for keeping their people in line. Direct their hatred towards Israel, and they forget the privations they have suffered at the hands of their government.

Who used to live on that land? Why cant the be called Palestinian.

How far do you want to go back, and what makes a just period of time?

You second point, there was no palestian race, how do ypu justify that.
Who used to live on that land? Why cant the be called Palestinian.

What makes one a palestinian? As to your second question, the Jews.

Syria supplies Hezballah with aid as a means of preserving its control over Lebanon. It's also a close ally of fundamentalist Iran, which more than confirms their willingness to promote fundamentalist ideology in the Middle East. They may not support it personally, but they're sure as hell willing to aid the fundamentalists if it means launching Damascus back in to the international limelight.


So it isnt like you said, where supporting fundementalism is the end and supporting palestinian resistance and hitzbollah is the means...

...its the opposite of what you said, where supporting fundementalists is the means to some other end.

You second point, there was no palestinian race, how do you justify that.
Who used to live on that land? Why cant the be called Palestinian.
Palestine means "The land between the river Jordan and the Sea." The residents of the region have been traditionally quite transient, with no ethnic group staying for extended periods of time, until the latter years of the Ottoman rule, and the years following that.

People have been repressed before and didn't resort to murdering civilians; they either used peaceful methods or armed resistance against occupying soliders, not bombs in the middle of nightclubs or shopping malls. The reason why people commit these attacks against Israel is because hateful, extremist organizations direct their people's anger away from the real enemies like Hamaitself or the repressive states of the Islamic world that treat the Palestinians like garbage.

The real enemy of the Palestinian people is the Arab states, not Israel. Iran and Syria are perfectly willing to prolong the suffering of the Palestinians in order to advance their cause of militant fundamentalism under the guise of national liberation.

thank god someone finally said it...jordan,syria,egypt..et all...turned their backs on the palistinians,they could have easily assimilated into the respective cultures.but they did not want to give them a homeland,from their own lands..so they looked towards israel.
i fear they think of them like the u.s. thought of slaves in days gone by,and they are a usefull distraction to the arab monarchies/dictatorships now,and then,as a distraction to their own population,as to direct the anger at their own shitty lives towards the jews..rather then look at their own governments.
simplistic..perhaps.
but a possible reason why they would not allow palistinian refugees in to their countries.
omitting the fact that their is no palistinian country,ever..their was a land called palestine(named by the british i think..could be wrong)but they,as the jews,are all the same race/culture....religion is the difference here...gotta love religion.
have to admit it was a very convenient exscuse to hate israel for the other countries(or should i say their religion)and have used the palistinians as pawns in a war of religions.

No, because Lebanon isn't sheltering or protecting Hezbollah like the Taliban did with Bin Laden and his dudes.

The Lebanese government is a pretty new construct, and they never had the ability to tackle Hezbollah head-on. A fact though that is easily forgotten at the moment is that the government and Hezbollah had been holding talks about disarming the militia and integrating those who wanted into the army for some time. Then Hezbollah backstabbed the Lebanese government by attacking Israel.
LEbanon negotiated with terrorists and they were part of the government. That is similar to sheltering them.

The jews lived on the land some 2000 years ago, some seem to forget that some of these ancient jews would have been converted into christians, and then some into muslims, creating the current palestian population. Some jews remained part of the palestinian population too.

The jews lived on the land some 2000 years ago, some seem to forget that some of these ancient jews would have been converted into christians, and then some into muslims, creating the current palestian population. Some jews remained part of the palestinian population too.
The vast bulk of the Jews were kicked out of Israel, both under the Diaspora, and the threats that they felt during the Crusades by both Christan and Muslim Armies. And by vast bulk, I mean more than eighty percent.

So it isnt like you said, where supporting fundementalism is the end and supporting palestinian resistance and hitzbollah is the means...

...its the opposite of what you said, where supporting fundementalists is the means to some other end.

It's many things. Iran wants to further its fundamentalist revoultion for a mainly religious rather than political reasons, so it supports the various fundamentalist groups in Palestine and Hezballah to achieve that end. At the same time, Syria sees Iran's moves as an accessory to expanding its power in the region as well as reclaiming indirect control over Lebanon; they're more interested in power than religion but are perfectly willing to further the cause of fundamentalism if they benefit from it in the end.

After the Muslims seized the area some time back, they allowed the Jews to live their, side by side, in peace. THis was during the Crusades period.

The vast bulk of the Jews were kicked out of Israel, both under the Diaspora, and the threats that they felt during the Crusades by both Christan and Muslim Armies. And by vast bulk, I mean more than eighty percent.

And don't forget the Jewish uprising in 70 AD I think it was that resulted in their temple being destroyed. That also got them kicked out too.

After the Muslims seized the area some time back, they allowed the Jews to live their, side by side, in peace. THis was during the Crusades period.

:rolleyes: care to back that one up?

After the Muslims seized the area some time back, they allowed the Jews to live their, side by side, in peace. THis was during the Crusades period.

Saladin and Richard the lion hearted sent each other gifts sometimes. Once when RTLH was sick, Saladin sent him some of the best delicacies to help him out. He even sent him a horse when his soldiers reported he was going into battle without one :eek:

Sort of weird.

The PAs and the Israelis had peace for 16 months, then Hamas had to launch rockets and kidnap some IDF guys...

After the Muslims seized the area some time back, they allowed the Jews to live their, side by side, in peace. THis was during the Crusades period.
That lasted until 1830 when Egypt took over for a decade and instilled hatred for Jews. The Jews of Jerusalem were butchered by the "Palestinians." The violence then erupted once more in 1920 when the Grand Mufti took over. This was 30 years before Israel.

:rolleyes: care to back that one up?

Im trying to find a source

The real enemy of the Palestinian people is the Arab states, not Israel. Iran and Syria are perfectly willing to prolong the suffering of the Palestinians in order to advance their cause of militant fundamentalism under the guise of national liberation.
Iran, perhaps. Syria has no cause of militant fundamentalism, just ask the thousands of Islamists rotting away in their jails.
Other than that minor detail, you are pretty spot. Many Arab countries have denied Palestinian refugees time and time again.

Do people really think that young fathers with their families love that bit of earth so much that they wouldn't try to give their wife and kids a better life in Egypt or Jordan or somewhere else - if those countries would let them?

LEbanon negotiated with terrorists and they were part of the government. That is similar to sheltering them.
So negotiating with terrorists is the same as sheltering, or supporting them?
Why don't you tell the Israelis? They'd love to hear about it, because I hear they're starting to run out of targets.

The Lebanese government negotiated with a political party, representing a militia that has for decades now been a major force in the country. What were they supposed to do? Sit back and ignore the fact that there is a second army in the country, pretend Hezbollah doesn't exist and is as powerful as they are?

Hezbollah cannot be destroyed by force of weapons. Israel has tried often enough to know that. They can be hurt, but they'll just come back again after a few years.
Without addressing the motivation behind it, there is no way of stopping it. So many Lebanese have worked to integrate Hezbollah into the political life, give them a legitimate outlet and take the sting out of them (the final chapter of which would have been the proposed integration of their military arm into the Lebanese Army).
Those were the reasons for the negotiations, those were the reasons for the Lebanese PM to put Hezbollah ministers in his coalition, despite the fact that he wouldn't have needed them to make a majority. It was pragmatism, dictated by the circumstances.

It didn't pay off, because Hezbollah decided to stab the government and the people of Lebanon in the back.

How that makes the Lebanese government, military or civilians legitimate targets is beyond me.

After the Muslims seized the area some time back, they allowed the Jews to live their, side by side, in peace. THis was during the Crusades period.

During the Crusades, the Middle East was a prosperous region ruled by generally competent and pragmatic leaders who encouraged the free flow of trade, information, and scientific research while simultaneously encouraging the evolution of Islamic theology and study of its holy texts. Not coincidentally, the Muslims of the period were much more tolerant of other religions especially compared to the Christians of the time.

Perhaps if the Islamic leaders who profess their admiration of Saladin ruled more like him, the problems of terrorism and economic stagnation would start to solve themselves.

Heres a quote from this site,
"When the Muslims captured Jerusalem in 638, they invited the Jews to return to the holy city"

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/jerarms.htm

Iran, perhaps. Syria has no cause of militant fundamentalism, just ask the thousands of Islamists rotting away in their jails.
Other than that minor detail, you are pretty spot. Many Arab countries have denied Palestinian refugees time and time again.

Syria's motivation for supporting fundamentalist groups is for power; they don't like the fact that their influence in the region has declined so they are willing to ally with the fundamentalists in order to exert indirect control over Lebanon as well as bring themselves closer to Iran, who they likely percieve as heir to the Saudi Arabia/Egypt power bloc that previously dominated Middle Eastern affairs. It's like Pinochet: he may be a son of a bitch, but at least he's our son of a bitch.

Do people really think that young fathers with their families love that bit of earth so much that they wouldn't try to give their wife and kids a better life in Egypt or Jordan or somewhere else - if those countries would let them?

Most of them would. Unfortunately, the hostility towards the Palestinians in other Middle Eastern countries is so great that these countries treat them like subhuman garbage if they let them enter at all. As I've said before,the true enemies of the Palestinians are these corrupt dictators, not the Israelis.

Seems the majority opinion is that Israel can never do wrong, and that the world will be a better place once all the Muslims are dead or subjugated.

Seems the majority opinion is that Israel can never do wrong, and that the world will be a better place once all the Muslims are dead or subjugated.

The world will be a better place when Muslims are freed from their corrupt regimes and they have access to real education, economic prosperity, and freedom of press and politics. The Islamic world was a center of innovation and commerce during the Middle Ages, so there's no reason why it can't become one again.

Most of them would. Unfortunately, the hostility towards the Palestinians in other Middle Eastern countries is so great that these countries treat them like subhuman garbage if they let them enter at all. As I've said before,the true enemies of the Palestinians are these corrupt dictators, not the Israelis.

Yet instead of relating to the constant rejection and persecution the Palestinians face as the Pawns and Tool of the Middle East, the Israelis seem more than happy to treat them like the rest. And that of course only feeds the fires of Radical Islam which gives the Palestinians the false hope that someone is on their side, when they're just really shit being kicked around in the political football match of "Jew or No Jew?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=fe5b12c28a8a30c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage


The Israeli villains' campagin of terrorism and destruction has so far claimed about 300 civilian lives. Completely despicable.

I imagine the US is radicalizing quite a few arabs and muslims by announcing that it will let the israelis continue for another week before bothering to intervene.



Greetings

Not to sidechoose here but I think this is far more complexed than you make it look.

You could try changing a few words and this will appear:

I imagine the Libanese is radicalizing quite a few Jews and christians by announcing that it will let the Hizbolla continue for another week ( or year ) before bothering to intervene.

BTW why don´t they just deliver the napped soldiers back, that would ease tensions a great deal;) , and even schoolkids know the Israelis won´t negociate so why nap them in the first place ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=fe5b12c28a8a30c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage


The Israeli villains' campagin of terrorism and destruction has so far claimed about 300 civilian lives. Completely despicable.

I imagine the US is radicalizing quite a few arabs and muslims by announcing that it will let the israelis continue for another week before bothering to intervene.
I perfer OceanDrive to you.

The world will be a better place when Muslims are freed from their corrupt regimes and they have access to real education, economic prosperity, and freedom of press and politics. The Islamic world was a center of innovation and commerce during the Middle Ages, so there's no reason why it can't become one again.


Greetings

True words, not even economy would be a problem if the corrupt leaders would stop stealing from their own citicens.

That goes for a great deal of the African states/countries too

...and even schoolkids know the Israelis won´t negociate so why nap them in the first place ?
Say, do you rely on schoolkids for your information? You probably shouldn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elchanan_Tenenbaum

Say, do you rely on schoolkids for your information? You probably shouldn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elchanan_Tenenbaum


Greetings

Just a sort of speaking

No rules without exceptions, I didn´t know that but thanks for the info.

Do the Israelis categorize that as negotiation with terrorists or just as a part of POW swapping?

Do the Israelis categorize that as negotiation with terrorists or just as a part of POW swapping?
Well, they have been calling Hezbollah terrorists for many, many years now. But I'd imagine that they would deny it when you ask whether they ever negotiated with terrorists.

But yeah, they did. It wasn't the first and it probably won't be the last prisoner swap they did.

It's like Pinochet: he may be a son of a bitch, but at least he's our son of a bitch.

For the sake of pointless quibbling: FDR (allegedly) said that several decades before Pinochet took power, about the then-dictator of Nicaragua, Anastasio Somoza.

But you have the sentiment right.

The world will be a better place when Muslims are freed from their corrupt regimes and they have access to real education, economic prosperity, and freedom of press and politics. The Islamic world was a center of innovation and commerce during the Middle Ages, so there's no reason why it can't become one again.
I hope for that day also. What's sad is that it's currently the Dark\middle Ages there. And the Clerics are supressing any sort of Revival of knowledge, basicly the Inquistion on Steroids are running the show.

So you think this is all Hezbollah's fault?

You have a firm grip on the obvious.

The whiners, criers, Islamofascist enablers and Israel-haters who wail and gnash their teeth about "civilian casualties" are devoid of intellectual honesty. If they had any, they would demand that Hezbollah leave civilian areas. That would end the "civilian casualties" immediately. But Hezbollah, like all Islamofascists, are basically cowards at heart and love to hide behind women and children when they aren't killing them.

While we're on the subject, there's serious doubt about the "civilian" status of those who allow Hezbollah to operate in their homes and neighborhoods in the first place.

The sole and exclusive responsibility for "civilian casualties" in Lebanon lies with Hezbollah.

And for those who presume to invoke the Geneva Convention to protect Hezbollah, Hamas, the so-called Iraqi "insurgents" and other Islamofascist terrorists from the consequences of their crimes, the following provisions are germane:

Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (1949) (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm )

Article 34
The taking of hostages is prohibited.

Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts, 8 June 1977 (http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/protocol1.html )

Art. 51. - Protection of the civilian population

1. The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in all circumstances.

2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.

3. Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

4. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are: (a) those which are not directed at a specific military objective; (b) those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or (c) those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol;
and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

5. Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate: (a) an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects; and
(b) an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

. . . .

7. The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.

. . . .

Hezbollah, like Hamas, the so-called Iraqi "insurgents" and other Islamofascist terrorists, violate the provisions of the Geneva Convention, particularly the highlighted sections, at every turn. "Those who come into equity must come with clean hands." Clearly, the terrorists' hands are unclean, literally as well as figuratively. They are entitled to no consideration in return.

Well, they have been calling Hezbollah terrorists for many, many years now. But I'd imagine that they would deny it when you ask whether they ever negotiated with terrorists.

But yeah, they did. It wasn't the first and it probably won't be the last prisoner swap they did.


I know the Hizbollah does a lot of social work in the south Libanon, Schools, hospitals, food etc., like Hamas in the Gaza, that gives them support and sympati from the people whose daily needs are taken care of in that way.

But what is their objective?, clearly Hizbollah is a shadowgoverment trying to force Libanon in to a war it has no chance of winning.

And what do you think can be done to straighten this up?

But what is their objective?, clearly Hizbollah is a shadowgoverment trying to force Libanon in to a war it has no chance of winning.
Well, they started out as the representation (and since it was civil war, as the army) of the Shi'ites in Lebanon. Iran was the main force in their creation.

Their goal back then was to push Israel out of Lebanon. They sorta achieved that, but their military wingnuts are quite obviously still pushing for the total destruction of Israel.

They also have a civilian arm, which has been building schools, doing other civil work and the like. They also have a TV Station (which plays Islamist and anti-Israeli, at times anti-semitic, propaganda), but no one is really watching it these days as the Lebanese find comedy, music videos and the like more appealing.

And finally they are now a political party. When Syria left and the elections were held a few months ago, they were one of the very few movements who didn't fall over themselves denouncing the Syrians. They ran on a pro-Syrian platform, and they won the majority (I think) of the Shi'ites vote. However, the other groups in Lebanon (Sunnis, Christians, Druze, etc) didn't vote for them at all.

But because the new PM wanted to build a government of national unity to build up the country after the Syrians left, he included Hezbollah politicians in his government, even though he didn't need to by the numbers.

Unfortunately, Hezbollah is at its heart still a violent Islamist movement that has a serious issue with the fact that Israel exists and is there to stay. So they tend to act independently and ignore the central government, even though they have a small representation in it.

I believe they kidnapped the soldiers and fired missiles in order to open up a second front and help their Islamist friends (even though they believe in different versions of Islam, they have a common enemy).

And that obviously left the Lebanese government looking very bad. Their government of national unity is history, and thanks to the Israeli response, so is pretty much everything else they'd achieved. I don't think the tears of the Lebanese PM on TV were faked.

And what do you think can be done to straighten this up?
Israel and the Lebanese government need to sit down together, ideally with some serious international pressure to make something happen. Syria could perhaps get involved (the Iranians would never agree).
I don't agree with Hezbollah. Any legitimacy they might have gained over the past years as they became more mainstream they have lost through this attack. The goal to take them out as a force in the region is clearly a good one.
But I don't agree with the method of choice. I think it's a relatively inexperienced Israeli cabinet having been hijacked by senior IDF hawks and which now has no choice but to let the IDF do as it wants. Peres had his doubts, and rightly so, because he was the PM last time Israel tried to take out Hezbollah with guns (it failed horribly).

When rocket installations can be identified, attack them. But the Lebanese people aren't the enemy. Taking out electricity, water and food hurts the civilians, not Hezbollah. Even destroying the airport and blockading the ports is a disproportionate response - yes, occasionally missiles and other weapons will come through that way, but most of the traffic is civilian in nature. The weapons could still be intercepted later, even though the risk may be greater. At some point you have to make a choice and not automatically assume that one Israeli is worth an unlimited amount of Lebanese.

As for the longer-term solution...we need to take the same road as we did in the Balkans: A major international effort to work out and put in place a region-wide concept for the future, to be worked out in neutral ground, away from all the propaganda and so on. We need some vision there.
That won't solve the Palestine issue, by the way (and IMHO Hamas has no place in the world, they failed at the chance I gave them when they came into power). But it will sort out the place the Arab nations will take in that conflict, which will form a secure base for a solution.

Well, they started out as the representation (and since it was civil war, as the army) of the Shi'ites in Lebanon. Iran was the main force in their creation.

Their goal back then was to push Israel out of Lebanon. They sorta achieved that, but their military wingnuts are quite obviously still pushing for the total destruction of Israel.

They also have a civilian arm, which has been building schools, doing other civil work and the like. They also have a TV Station (which plays Islamist and anti-Israeli, at times anti-semitic, propaganda), but no one is really watching it these days as the Lebanese find comedy, music videos and the like more appealing.

And finally they are now a political party. When Syria left and the elections were held a few months ago, they were one of the very few movements who didn't fall over themselves denouncing the Syrians. They ran on a pro-Syrian platform, and they won the majority (I think) of the Shi'ites vote. However, the other groups in Lebanon (Sunnis, Christians, Druze, etc) didn't vote for them at all.

But because the new PM wanted to build a government of national unity to build up the country after the Syrians left, he included Hezbollah politicians in his government, even though he didn't need to by the numbers.

Unfortunately, Hezbollah is at its heart still a violent Islamist movement that has a serious issue with the fact that Israel exists and is there to stay. So they tend to act independently and ignore the central government, even though they have a small representation in it.

I believe they kidnapped the soldiers and fired missiles in order to open up a second front and help their Islamist friends (even though they believe in different versions of Islam, they have a common enemy).

And that obviously left the Lebanese government looking very bad. Their government of national unity is history, and thanks to the Israeli response, so is pretty much everything else they'd achieved. I don't think the tears of the Lebanese PM on TV were faked.


Israel and the Lebanese government need to sit down together, ideally with some serious international pressure to make something happen. Syria could perhaps get involved (the Iranians would never agree).
I don't agree with Hezbollah. Any legitimacy they might have gained over the past years as they became more mainstream they have lost through this attack. The goal to take them out as a force in the region is clearly a good one.
But I don't agree with the method of choice. I think it's a relatively inexperienced Israeli cabinet having been hijacked by senior IDF hawks and which now has no choice but to let the IDF do as it wants. Peres had his doubts, and rightly so, because he was the PM last time Israel tried to take out Hezbollah with guns (it failed horribly).

When rocket installations can be identified, attack them. But the Lebanese people aren't the enemy. Taking out electricity, water and food hurts the civilians, not Hezbollah. Even destroying the airport and blockading the ports is a disproportionate response - yes, occasionally missiles and other weapons will come through that way, but most of the traffic is civilian in nature. The weapons could still be intercepted later, even though the risk may be greater. At some point you have to make a choice and not automatically assume that one Israeli is worth an unlimited amount of Lebanese.

As for the longer-term solution...we need to take the same road as we did in the Balkans: A major international effort to work out and put in place a region-wide concept for the future, to be worked out in neutral ground, away from all the propaganda and so on. We need some vision there.
That won't solve the Palestine issue, by the way (and IMHO Hamas has no place in the world, they failed at the chance I gave them when they came into power). But it will sort out the place the Arab nations will take in that conflict, which will form a secure base for a solution.




Greetings

Thanks for the input and info, wise words

I enjoyed reading it since I´m in 99% agreence with you

Lets hope they start talking seriosly before this conflict spreads or extends( right now Iran is quite happy as focus is off them for the moment)

I was watching CNN the other day and I really couldn't decide which of the following three had the flimsier grasp on reality:
1. A report had a CNN reporter being shown round the destruction wrought by the Israelli attacks and the Hizbollah guide loudly proclaiming that Hizbollah has never never NEVER acted violently towards Israel merely, always, reacted to Israels viscious attacks.

2. A Hizbollah spokesman happily declared that the Israelli tank incursions were proof that the airstrikes weren't working and that Israel were now on the back foot.

3. John Bolton making the statement that the US opposes a ceasefire because one can't make a ceasefire with a terrorist organisation. That it's never been done before and would never work anyway.
Obviously he's never heard of, for example, two small countries called England and Ireland and the problems they had, then sorted via a ceasefire, with a terrorist organisation called the IRA.
But we can't expect the US ambassodor to the UN to know of such things, can we?

So anyway, it got me all confused over which one of the above is most in cuckoo-la-la land. What do others think?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=fe5b12c28a8a30c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage


The Israeli villains' campagin of terrorism and destruction has so far claimed about 300 civilian lives. Completely despicable.

I imagine the US is radicalizing quite a few arabs and muslims by announcing that it will let the israelis continue for another week before bothering to intervene.

I guess you're assuming that the Israelis have hit zero Hezbollah personnel. Or that the Hezbollah will actually report any of their actual casualty figures. And that when Hezbollah targets are destroyed, you take their word for it that every Hezbollah structure is a mosque full of innocent women and children.

Personally, I think the following link says it all about the supposed Israeli "moral superiority"

http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2006/07/humanity-of-israeli-society.html



They are all crazy in that area, I say nuke'em all, Israelis, palestinians, etc..

:D that would fix the problem!

I was watching CNN the other day and I really couldn't decide which of the following three had the flimsier grasp on reality:
1. A report had a CNN reporter being shown round the destruction wrought by the Israelli attacks and the Hizbollah guide loudly proclaiming that Hizbollah has never never NEVER acted violently towards Israel merely, always, reacted to Israels viscious attacks.

2. A Hizbollah spokesman happily declared that the Israelli tank incursions were proof that the airstrikes weren't working and that Israel were now on the back foot.

3. John Bolton making the statement that the US opposes a ceasefire because one can't make a ceasefire with a terrorist organisation. That it's never been done before and would never work anyway.
Obviously he's never heard of, for example, two small countries called England and Ireland and the problems they had, then sorted via a ceasefire, with a terrorist organisation called the IRA.
But we can't expect the US ambassodor to the UN to know of such things, can we?

So anyway, it got me all confused over which one of the above is most in cuckoo-la-la land. What do others think?
Welcome to Madness, Population: All of the above.

This whole situation leaves me despising the Hizbollah even more, loosing my faith in Israel, and completely obliterating all credibility the US (the current administration) had left as a peace broker and in all matters regarding humanitarian crises.

Saladin and Richard the lion hearted sent each other gifts sometimes. Once when RTLH was sick, Saladin sent him some of the best delicacies to help him out. He even sent him a horse when his soldiers reported he was going into battle without one :eek:

Sort of weird.

The PAs and the Israelis had peace for 16 months, then Hamas had to launch rockets and kidnap some IDF guys...

Isn't that the most logical move for Hamas to make.. during those 16 months Palestine fell on the brink of civil war, and the President of Palestine was about to undermine Hamas authority by bringing a peace treaty to referendum.. All of these actions have served to distract attention away from Hamas short commings as a government authority, and now peace with Israel is ever farther away. Yet another example of the Palestineans being shot in the foot by their own government

Welcome to Madness, Population: All of the above.

This whole situation leaves me despising the Hizbollah even more, loosing my faith in Israel, and completely obliterating all credibility the US (the current administration) had left as a peace broker and in all matters regarding humanitarian crises.

according to most international critics of the US.. we shouldn't be interfering in the international affairs of other sovergine nations to begin with... this matter should be left up to the security council ...

And I would shudder to think how long it would take for THEM to pass a resolution of action..

according to most international critics of the US.. we shouldn't be interfering in the international affairs of other sovergine nations to begin with... this matter should be left up to the security council ...

And I would shudder to think how long it would take for THEM to pass a resolution of action..
It'd take them...oh, neveryears.
Especially as the US has veto rights which, considering what Bolton has already said, they'd almost definitely use if the Security council did condemn Israel and demand a ceasefire.

And the award for the most idiotic leftist tin-foil hat statement goes to....

The Israeli villains' campagin of terrorism and destruction has so far claimed about 300 civilian lives. Completely despicable.

according to most international critics of the US.. we shouldn't be interfering in the international affairs of other sovergine nations to begin with... this matter should be left up to the security council ...

And I would shudder to think how long it would take for THEM to pass a resolution of action..

Which would mean technically speaking, no other nation would interfere in the process of another.

Nationalists would love it. Interventionists would hate it. Warhawks would ignore it.

And we'd be in the exact same position then as we are now.

It'd take them...oh, neveryears.
Especially as the US has veto rights which, considering what Bolton has already said, they'd almost definitely use if the Security council did condemn Israel and demand a ceasefire.

The UN is already demanding a cease-fire. :rolleyes:

And the award for the most idiotic leftist tin-foil hat statement goes to....
Hey I'm considered leftist, but I agree with your statement. Wait what am I anyway... Is there such thing as a Warhawk Liberal?

So you think this is all Hezbollah's fault?

No doubt about it it is Hezbollah's fault.

It isn't Israel's fault that Hezbollah puts themselves around civilians as human shields. It is Hezbollah's fault.

Of course not. Israel abhors the idea of harming a hair on their heads and would never treat Arab life as worth less than anyone elses.

Btw, that isn't the same Israel that this lot are talking about, is it?


20 July 2006: Israeli Soldiers use civilians as Human Shields in Beit Hanun

B'Tselem's initial investigation indicates that, during an incursion by Israeli forces into Beit Hanun, in the northern Gaza Strip, on 17 July 2006, soldiers seized control of two buildings in the town and used residents as human shield. .
Full article here (http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp)

The attacks on missile batteries arent what keep killing civilians, the attacks on suburbs are.

The missile batteries are IN the suburbs, smart one.

Until 9/11 Hezbollah had commited more acts of terrorism against america than anybody else.....Thats what has been said, but I need some valid numbers for it.

Hezbollah bombed the U.S. marine barracks in Beirut back in the 80's, killing a couple hundred marines. We still need to get them back for that.

Hezbollah bombed the U.S. marine barracks in Beirut back in the 80's, killing a couple hundred marines. We still need to get them back for that.That can hardly be construed as an act of terror, considering the State Departments definition thereof...