NationStates Jolt Archive

The Israeli Air Force dropped 23 tons of explosives ontop of a Hezbollah bunker that is rumored to have Hezbollah's leader inside it.

23 tons? WOW! The bunker is also 100ft below ground and was built by the Iranians.

Is the Hezbollah chief dead or did he escape before the bombing?

Linkage?

If they were smart, no one is in the Hezbollah bunker except old people, women, and children. Just like that bunker in Baghdad during the 1991 Gulf War - a command and control center by day, and a packed civilian shelter by night.

Of course, after 23 tons of bombs, you won't be able to tell who anyone was.

CNN has it on their website.

Linkage?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,204482,00.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/19/mideast/index.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13929959/

Also in the news today: Israeli 'targeted' missiles strike house, kill two UN officials. Good going guys.

From what I heard, it didnt kill anyone.

From what I heard, it didnt kill anyone.

Is that coming from Hezbollah? As anything been heard from their leader yet?

Hezbollah said it was a "mosque under construction"

Sure.:rolleyes:

As anything been heard from their leader yet?
Don't worry, you will. That guy has a tendency to not get killed. Remember last time Israel tried to wipe out Hezbollah? He was the only winner.

And anyway, why would it matter if the leader got killed?
Aside from the PR value, I sincerly doubt it would impact the group or its supporters that much.

Hezb'allah aren't going to collapse because of it.

And anyway, why would it matter if the leader got killed?
Aside from the PR value, I sincerly doubt it would impact the group or its supporters that much.

Hezb'allah aren't going to collapse because of it.

Your right about that but this could throw them off balance for a bit and take them time to recover from it.

And anyway, why would it matter if the leader got killed?
Aside from the PR value, I sincerly doubt it would impact the group or its supporters that much.

Hezb'allah aren't going to collapse because of it.


Yea..so we should do nothing about them and let them run rampant in southern lebanon firing rockets into Israel day and night...right??? WRONG...kill them and destroy their resources so they can't re-arm themselves...block off al transport into Lebanon..and then take out the funders...Syria and Iran. That should do the trick. If all this doesnt happen then we will be in this same situation in another two years

Yea..so we should do nothing about them and let them run rampant in southern lebanon firing rockets into Israel day and night...right??? WRONG...kill them and destroy their resources so they can't re-arm themselves...block off al transport into Lebanon..and then take out the funders...Syria and Iran. That should do the trick. If all this doesnt happen then we will be in this same situation in another two years

Hezbollah rockets have killed 8 people, total.

Hezbollah rockets have killed 8 people, total.


Bullshit, the Israeli death toll is at 29, Israel is just lucky the thousands of rockets that have fallen in Israel so far have been pretty inaccurate and haven't been on target.

This war isn't about who has killed more. It has to do with getting Hizballa out of Lebanon and off the face of the earth, whatever the cost may be.

The blood is on the hands of Hizballah...whose cross border raid and murder of 8 soldiers led to this recent escalation of violence. Stop apologizing for terror.

Hezbollah rockets have killed 8 people, total.

Try that number again.

I gotta go write them another check...damm Israeli's having all the fun BRB ..

Hezbollah rockets have killed 8 people, total.

Try that number again.

Hezbollah rockets have killed 8 people, total.


Bullshit, the Israeli death toll is at 29, Israel is just lucky the thousands of rockets that have fallen in Israel so far have been pretty inaccurate and haven't been on target.

This war isn't about who has killed more. It has to do with getting Hizballa out of Lebanon and off the face of the earth, whatever the cost may be.

The blood is on the hands of Hizballah...whose cross border raid and murder of 8 soldiers led to this recent escalation of violence. Stop apologizing for terror.

EDIT: linkage...http://www.cnn.com/ should still be on the homepage

Yea..so we should do nothing about them and let them run rampant in southern lebanon firing rockets into Israel day and night...right??? WRONG...kill them and destroy their resources so they can't re-arm themselves...block off al transport into Lebanon..and then take out the funders...Syria and Iran. That should do the trick. If all this doesnt happen then we will be in this same situation in another two years
Way to miss the point completely.

Did it work for the near two decades Israel occupied Lebanon? No.
Did Israel kill its leaders and high ranking officers? Yes.
Was Hezb'allah crushed then? No.
Is Hezb'allah still around today regardless? Yes.

What makes this brief attack any more successful than the loooooonnnngg occupation? Nothing.

"That should do the trick". :rolleyes:

Way to miss the point completely.

Did it work for the near two decades Israel occupied Lebanon? No.
Did Israel kill its leaders and high ranking officers? Yes.
Was Hezb'allah crushed then? No.
Is Hezb'allah still around today regardless? Yes.

What makes this brief attack any more successful than the loooooonnnngg occupation? Nothing.

"That should do the trick". :rolleyes:

Wait a minute...was Israel forced to hold back the last time they were in Lebanon? Did International pressure force them to halt attacks and call for a pre mature cease-fire? I believe they did. Israel needs to finish the job and not just go in and pull out quickly. They need to completely decimate Hizballah and eventually get their funders.

Do some research, all the disinformation and anti-Israel rhetoric did a good job in getting the world to come out against Israel back then. But these are different times. Israel won't sit back and let these animals cross their border and murder their soldiers and rain rockets down on their cities. It's simply not going to be tolerated anymore.

Murder soldiers? Hold on, this is a war! thats right, you can only murder civilians.

but of course, every soldier is so meaningful to mother israel that even if he was KIA, he was murdered, thats how important they are. :rolleyes:

Wait a minute...was Israel forced to hold back the last time they were in Lebanon? Did International pressure force them to halt attacks and call for a pre mature cease-fire? I believe they did. Israel needs to finish the job and not just go in and pull out quickly. They need to completely decimate Hizballah and eventually get their funders.

Do some research, all the disinformation and anti-Israel rhetoric did a good job in getting the world to come out against Israel back then. But these are different times. Israel won't sit back and let these animals cross their border and murder their soldiers and rain rockets down on their cities. It's simply not going to be tolerated anymore.

I agree completely. Just like the US is doing an amazing job of hunting down terrorists and their leaders in Iraq, that proves this method of combating terrorism works *nods*.

Hezbollah said it was a "mosque under construction"

Sure.:rolleyes:


100 feet below ground....was that Bahgdad BOB making that announcement ?

I'm glad to see he found a new job ..I kinda missed him .


We need to get a clock that marks the time hezbollah has left to inhabit the earth .


time to send israel another check..gotta be sure they dont run short on ammo.

They have been preparing for this ...so the talking heads say..for six years..so why is it ...to be fair..the last two times they sent ground forces into Lebenon..in the last couple days..Hezbollah kicked their ass ?

So whats up with that ?

Murder soldiers? Hold on, this is a war! thats right, you can only murder civilians.

but of course, every soldier is so meaningful to mother israel that even if he was KIA, he was murdered, thats how important they are. :rolleyes:


The killing of the first eight soldiers was murder as it was the initiation of hostilities against Israel.

And for all the Israel haters out there...how woudl YOU go about ending the incessant rocket attacks and border attacks? I would really love to know.

Wait a minute...was Israel forced to hold back the last time they were in Lebanon? Did International pressure force them to halt attacks and call for a pre mature cease-fire? I believe they did. Israel needs to finish the job and not just go in and pull out quickly. They need to completely decimate Hizballah and eventually get their funders.
Finish the job?
They were there from 1982 until 2000. They didn't 'finish the job' then- not from lack of trying, but because it is job that is impossible to finish.


Do some research, all the disinformation and anti-Israel rhetoric did a good job in getting the world to come out against Israel back then.
I don't need to do research. I can talk to my father who was there for 5 years during the Second Israeli invasion.

But these are different times. Israel won't sit back and let these animals cross their border and murder their soldiers and rain rockets down on their cities. It's simply not going to be tolerated anymore.

Trash talk extraordinare.

Its not about destroying Hezb'allah. Its not about getting their soldiers back. Its not about stopping 'these animals' crossing the border.

Its about buying time- buying a few more years of relative peace. Like when Barak pulled out in 2000. They got roughly 6 years or relative peace. Thats all this is again.

The Israeli Air Force dropped 23 tons of explosives ontop of a Hezbollah bunker that is rumored to have Hezbollah's leader inside it.

23 tons? WOW! The bunker is also 100ft below ground and was built by the Iranians.

Is the Hezbollah chief dead or did he escape before the bombing?

Given the Israeli track record so far the building's as likely to be a hospital as it is to be a bunker...

If it was 30 metres below ground, with the reinforcement that that implies, then the bombs didn't do shit.

If it was 30 metres below ground, with the reinforcement that that implies, then the bombs didn't do shit.


you need bunker busters..I am not aware israel has any or the ability to deliver them..they may have been using bombs designed to destroy by shockwaves and concussion. If so theey may not have peetrated the bunker but would have created shockwaves to turn anyy organic life into a blended pool of flesh and bone...if all of the oxegen was not removed from the space also .


google Janes ordinance...there is some NASTY stuff for bunkers..the best is the bunker buster..both Nuke and conventional but I believe the US is the only country that has a stock..theyy are VERY difficult to produce and require an aircraft with a huge payload to deliver them .

but there are other ordinance designed to attack fortification and cave and tunnel complexes....it depends on what they used and how well designed the iranian bunker was built..it also depends on whether anyone was at home when they knocked on the door :D


http://books.idealo.com/15R1C15L74K0-History-Military-Science.html


Guide to 'bunker-busting' bombs


The Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28), often known as a "bunker buster", was developed during the 1991 Gulf War for penetrating fortified Iraqi command centres deep underground.
These relatively simple, yet devastatingly effective weapons are now being used against underground positions in Afghanistan.

Carried by B-2 stealth bombers and F-15 fighters, the GBU-28 is a 5,000lb laser-guided, conventionally-armed bomb fitted with a 4,400lb penetrating warhead.

The operator illuminates a target with a laser and the bomb guides itself on to the mark.



Bunker busters can be delivered by B-2 stealth bombers

The BBC's defence correspondent Jonathan Marcus says the US armed forces have been increasingly interested in developing a new range of weapons to hit deeply buried targets.

"The need arose during the air campaign against Iraq, but strategic concerns in the Korean peninsula and elsewhere have added to the urgency of developing such systems," he said.

"The concern is driven by the fact that as the power of surveillance and satellite systems increase, so an enemy is likely to bury vital assets below ground.

Mountain missile bases

"The Americans, for example, believe that key elements of North Korea's nuclear programme may be underground. And the utility of cave networks and subterranan passages for groups like al-Qaeda is obvious."

The US Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, said in a media briefing on Thursday that "a lot of countries have done a lot of digging underground" - it was not unique to Afghanistan.

"It does make much more complicated the task of dealing with targets because, as you've known from photographs you've seen of North Korea, it is perfectly possible to dig into the side of a mountain and put a large ballistic missile in there and erect it and fire it out of the mountain from an underground post."

He said equipment such as that used to dig the Channel Tunnel could cut holes 50ft across and 200ft deep in a day.

Referring to the attacks in Afghanistan, he added: "You bet, to the extent we see a good deal of activity, a lot of so-called adits and tunnel entries and external indication of internal activity, we have targeted them."

Gulf War

Bunker busters were developed extremely quickly during the air campaign in the Gulf War in 1991 after it became clear that existing weapons were proving ineffective against underground targets.



The bombs were originally carried by now-retired F-111 aircraft


The GBU-28 was not even in the planning stages when Kuwait was invaded in 1990. The US Air Force asked for ideas a week after military operations started.

The first bunker buster was built on 1 February 1991 using surplus 8-inch artillery tubes. The project received an official go-ahead a fortnight later.

Success

Initial development and testing proved that the bombs could penetrate more than 20 ft of concrete, while a flight test demonstrated the bomb's ability to penetrate more than 100 ft of earth.



A ground-support team prepares to attach a 'bunker buster'


The first operational bombs were delivered to the Gulf on 27 February. Only two bunker busters were dropped in Desert Storm, both by F-111 fighter-bombers.

One bomb hit its target, confirmed by the aircraft's onboard video camera which revealed smoke pouring from a bunker entrance about six seconds after impact.

After Operation Desert Storm, the Air Force made modifications and undertook further testing.

In 1997, the US spent $18.4m on producing more than 160 GBU-28s, a sign that the weapon had become an integral part of the US arsenal.

Although spurred by the campaign against Iraq, our correspondent says strategic concerns in the Korean peninsula and elsewhere have added to the urgency of developing such systems.

The Americans, for example, believe that key elements of North Korea's nuclear programme may be underground.




Aerojet, which operates a facility in Socorro, soon will start producing a conventional-explosive "bunker-buster" warhead under a contract with Raytheon Missile Systems, company officials say.

The $8 million contract will involve work at both an Aerojet operation in Camden, Ark., where the "explosive loading" of the warhead will be done, and at the Socorro facility, where final assembly of the TOW (Tube- Launched, Optically Tracked, Wired-Guided) Bunker Buster will take place, according to a Raytheon release.


Aerojet's Socorro workers already assemble and do random testing on other, similar TOW anti-tank and anti-armor missiles at the nearby New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology. Representatives of both Raytheon and Aerojet wouldn't say if the bunker buster warheads will be tested at the Tech range, but a school official says that's a "possibility."




The GBU-28 has in the past been fitted with a delay fuze (FMU-143) so that it explodes after penetration rather than on impact. There has also been a good bit of research into smart fuzes that, using a microprocessor and an accelerometer, can actually detect what is happening during penetration and explode at precisely the right time. These fuses are known as hard target smart fuzes (HTSF). See GlobalSecurity.org: HTSF for details.

The GBU-27/GBU-24 (aka BLU-109) is nearly identical to the GBU-28, except that it weighs only 2,000 pounds (900 kg). It is less expensive to manufacture, and a bomber can carry more of them on each mission.

To make bunker busters that can go even deeper, designers have three choices:

They can make the weapon heavier. More weight gives the bomb more kinetic energy when it hits the target.

They can make the weapon smaller in diameter. The smaller cross-sectional area means that the bomb has to move less material (earth or concrete) "out of the way" as it penetrates.

They can make the bomb faster to increase its kinetic energy. The only practical way to do this is to add some sort of large rocket engine that fires right before impact.
One way to make a bunker buster heavier while maintaining a narrow cross-sectional area is to use a metal that is heavier than steel. Lead is heavier, but it is so soft that it is useless in a penetrator -- lead would deform or disintegrate when the bomb hits the target.
One material that is both extremely strong and extremely dense is depleted uranium. DU is the material of choice for penetrating weapons because of these properties. For example, the M829 is an armor-piercing "dart" fired from the cannon of an M1 tank. These 10-pound (4.5-kg) darts are 2 feet (61 cm) long, approximately 1 inch (2.5 cm) in diameter and leave the barrel of the tank's cannon traveling at over 1 mile (1.6 km) per second. The dart has so much kinetic energy and is so strong that it is able to pierce the strongest armor plating.

Depleted uranium is a by-product of the nuclear power industry. Natural uranium from a mine contains two isotopes: U-235 and U-238. The U-235 is what is needed to produce nuclear power (see How Nuclear Power Plants Work for details), so the uranium is refined to extract the U-235 and create "enriched uranium." The U-238 that is left over is known as "depleted uranium."

U-238 is a radioactive metal that produces alpha and beta particles. In its solid form, it is not particularly dangerous because its half-life is 4.5 billion years, meaning that the atomic decay is very slow. Depleted uranium is used, for example, in boats and airplanes as ballast. The three properties that make depleted uranium useful in penetrating weapons are its:

Density - Depleted uranium is 1.7 times heavier than lead, and 2.4 times heavier than steel.

Hardness - If you look at a Web site like WebElements.com, you can see that the Brinell hardness of U-238 is 2,400, which is just shy of tungsten at 2,570. Iron is 490. Depleted uranium alloyed with a small amount of titanium is even harder.

Incendiary properties - Depleted uranium burns. It is something like magnesium in this regard. If you heat uranium up in an oxygen environment (normal air), it will ignite and burn with an extremely intense flame. Once inside the target, burning uranium is another part of the bomb's destructive power.
These three properties make depleted uranium an obvious choice when creating advanced bunker-busting bombs. With depleted uranium, it is possible to create extremely heavy, strong and narrow bombs that have tremendous penetrating force.
The problem with depleted uranium is the fact that it is radioactive. The United States uses tons on depleted uranium on the battlefield. At the end of the conflict, this leaves tons of radioactive material in the environment. For example, Time magazine: Balkan Dust Storm reports:

NATO aircraft rained more than 30,000 DU shells on Kosovo during the 11-week air campaign… About 10 tons of the debris were scattered across Kosovo.
Perhaps 300 tons of DU weapons were used in the first Gulf war. When it burns, DU forms a uranium-oxide smoke that is easily inhaled and that settles on the ground miles from the point of use. Once inhaled or ingested, depleted-uranium smoke can do a great deal of damage to the human body because of its radioactivity. See How Nuclear Radiation Works for details.
Tactical Nuclear Weapons
The Pentagon has developed tactical nuclear weapons to reach the most heavily fortified and deeply buried bunkers. The idea is to marry a small nuclear bomb with a penetrating bomb casing to create a weapon that can penetrate deep into the ground and then explode with nuclear force. The B61-11, available since 1997, is the current state of the art in the area of nuclear bunker busters.

From a practical standpoint, the advantage of a small nuclear bomb is that it can pack so much explosive force into such a small space. (See How Nuclear Bombs Work for details.) The B61-11 can carry a nuclear charge with anywhere between a 1-kiloton (1,000 tons of TNT) and a 300-kiloton yield. For comparison, the bomb used on Hiroshima had a yield of approximately 15 kilotons. The shock wave from such an intense underground explosion would cause damage deep in the earth and would presumably destroy even the most well-fortified bunker.

From an environmental and diplomatic standpoint, however, the use of the B61-11 raises a number of issues. There is no way for any known penetrating bomb to bury itself deeply enough to contain a nuclear blast. This means that the B61-11 would leave an immense crater and eject a huge amount of radioactive fallout into the air. Diplomatically, the B61-11 is problematic because it violates the international desire to eliminate the use of nuclear weapons. See FAS.org: Low-Yield Earth-Penetrating Nuclear Weapons for details.

For more information on the GBU-28, the B61-11 and depleted uranium, check out the links on the next page.

Next Page >>


http://science.howstuffworks.com/bunker-buster.htm


You why I say I doubt israel has these...but I bet they wish they did.

If it was 30 metres below ground, with the reinforcement that that implies, then the bombs didn't do shit.

If you drop a 2000 lb bomb on the same spot several times, you do indeed dig your way down.

After 23 bombs (assuming precision guidance) on the same spot, you could have quite a deep hole. Regardless of the reinforcement.

At the very least, whoever was down there is permanently entombed with no air or water.

The Israeli Air Force dropped 23 tons of explosives ontop of a Hezbollah bunker that is rumored to have Hezbollah's leader inside it.

23 tons? WOW! The bunker is also 100ft below ground and was built by the Iranians.

Is the Hezbollah chief dead or did he escape before the bombing?
Daaamn... 23 tonnes? Shit, that's a lot of explosives...

And, even if he did die, you know damn well, that they will find a new guy, they always do.

It's like killing roaches in an open field.

Daaamn... 23 tonnes? Shit, that's a lot of explosives...

And, even if he did die, you know damn well, that they will find a new guy, they always do.

It's like killing roaches in an open field.

Well, once they run out of places to hide underground, the Israelis can start using MLRS to deliver cluster munitions over wide areas to catch Hezbollah personnel who no longer have cover.

That, and aircraft delivered cluster munitions.

I'm not sure I would make the "roaches" analogy. It's offensive.

Well, once they run out of places to hide underground, the Israelis can start using MLRS to deliver cluster munitions over wide areas to catch Hezbollah personnel who no longer have cover.

That, and aircraft delivered cluster munitions.

I'm not sure I would make the "roaches" analogy. It's offensive.

Gotta love cluster munitions. Unexploded bomblets for children to find for years to come.

Gotta love cluster munitions. Unexploded bomblets for children to find for years to come.

Not since the mid-1990s.

All US made cluster munitions have a 48 hour lifespan.

After which, they detonate.

The US found them to be extremely problematic during the 1991 Gulf War - US soldiers ended up wounded by quite a few of the unexploded ones.

So a policy decision and technological improvement was made.

You can also note that current US bomblets are using "smart" technology. In addition to the self-destruct timer, they have IR or millimeter wave homing capability. Depending on whether they are anti-personnel, or anti-vehicle, every person and vehicle in the footprint gets their own personal bomblet.

Much, much more effective than they used to be. In addition, the MLRS rocket is GPS guided - so the rocket unloads the bomblets right where you asked for them, instead of scattering them all over creation.

Hezbollah is of course claiming no casualties, but I'd take that claim with a grain of salt considering they said earlier that it was a mosque.

Hezbollah is of course claiming no casualties, but I'd take that claim with a grain of salt considering they said earlier that it was a mosque.

Not to mention, nothing has been heard of from their leader either.

Hezbollah Bunker gets Hammered

And this will teach Hezbollah not to party while a war is going on outside. And if not, the hangover mixed with the sound of falling bombs will.

Not to mention, nothing has been heard of from their leader either.
Well, even if he was alive, it's not like he would hold a press conference and tell everyone where he is.

Well, even if he was alive, it's not like he would hold a press conference and tell everyone where he is.

Still nothing has been heard from him. You would think we would have a taped response by now.

Well, even if he was alive, it's not like he would hold a press conference and tell everyone where he is.
He's been regularly making statements. Haven't heard one since the attack.

As Ken "Hawk" Harrelson would say, HE GONE!!!!!!!!

Might also want to ask if the Israelis bought any of these kits to go with the JDAM we sold them.

The Advanced Unitary Penetrator (AUP), a candidate to be integrated with a GBU-31 guidance kit, is a 2000 lb. class penetrator warhead intended as an upgrade/replacement for the BLU-109 warhead in applications requiring increased penetration. The AUP is designed to provide increased penetration capability over the BLU-109 warhead while maintaining the same overall weight, mass properties, dimensions, and physical interfaces associated with the BLU-109 warhead. This concept integrates the AUP warhead with the GBU-31, the JDAM tail kit for 2,000 lb class warheads. This concept uses the Hard Target Smart Fuze (HTSF), an accelerometer based electronic fuze which allows control of the detonation point by layer counting, distance or time. The accelerometer senses G loads on the bomb due to deceleration as it penetrates through to the target. The fuze can distinguish between earth, concrete, rock and air.

The boosted penetrator concept is based on achieving maximum penetration without sacrificing operational flexibility. Total system weight will be less than 2,250 pounds so that it can be carried by all AF tactical aircraft and bombers as well as the Navy’s F/A-18. The goal is to achieve greater penetration than the GBU-28 with a near term, affordable design. A dense metal warhead will be used with a wraparound rocket motor to allow internal carriage in the F-117. Advanced explosives will be used to compensate for the reduced charge weight. This concept integrates the boosted penetrator warhead with a JDAM guidance kit with an adverse weather Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR).

A GBU-28 can penetrate 100 feet of earth and 20 feet of concrete. If this bomb kit allows a BLU-109 to do better (an ordinary 2000-lb bomb), then they might have dropped these on the bunker.

In which case, the bunker has been completely destroyed.

Might also want to ask if the Israelis bought any of these kits to go with the JDAM we sold them.



A GBU-28 can penetrate 100 feet of earth and 20 feet of concrete. If this bomb kit allows a BLU-109 to do better (an ordinary 2000-lb bomb), then they might have dropped these on the bunker.

In which case, the bunker has been completely destroyed.

YEOW!

Well, once they run out of places to hide underground, the Israelis can start using MLRS to deliver cluster munitions over wide areas to catch Hezbollah personnel who no longer have cover.

That, and aircraft delivered cluster munitions.

I'm not sure I would make the "roaches" analogy. It's offensive.

Mr. "Sterilize All The Muslims" suggesting that the "roaches" analogy is offensive? Pretty disingenuous. Your solution is one approach used for pest control so you of all people ought to find that an appropriate reference.

:rolleyes:

Oh and cluster bombs. Boy those are real precision guided weapons aren't they? Even less civilian casualties than solid ordinance. And the real fun comes from the unexploded bomblets that kids might happen upon later.

Oh, but I forgot. It's okay for Israel to kill civvies as long as they weren't being aimed at and it's all "an accident."

Mr. "Sterilize All The Muslims" suggesting that the "roaches" analogy is offensive? Pretty disingenuous. Your solution is one approach used for pest control so you of all people ought to find that an appropriate reference.

:rolleyes:

Oh and cluster bombs. Boy those are real precision guided weapons aren't they? Even less civilian casualties than solid ordinance. And the real fun comes from the unexploded bomblets that kids might happen upon later.

Oh, but I forgot. It's okay for Israel to kill civvies as long as they weren't being aimed at and it's all "an accident."


Guess you didn't read the post I made on how cluster munitions aren't the ones your daddy told you about at that Green Party meeting.

Unexploded bomblets no longer occur in current US munitions. They found it to be a hazard to US troops, so major improvements were made, including making all bomblets home in on either people or vehicles, and dispose of themselves after 48 hours.

Guess you didn't read the post I made on how cluster munitions aren't the ones your daddy told you about at that Green Party meeting.

Unexploded bomblets no longer occur in current US munitions. They found it to be a hazard to US troops, so major improvements were made, including making all bomblets home in on either people or vehicles, and dispose of themselves after 48 hours.

Yet I have to conclude that you were talking out of your arse.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-10-cluster-bomb-cover_x.htm

Yet I have to conclude that you were talking out of your arse.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-10-cluster-bomb-cover_x.htm


From the article:

By Jack Gruber, USA TODAY
Iraqi armor that took cover in such date palm groves as this one in Yusifiyah was bombed by U.S. forces.

The choices could be agonizing. He says he asked himself, "How many Americans do I have to let get killed before I take out that (Iraqi) weapons system?" Ten to 15 times, Cayce advised commanders against firing on a target; they never overruled him. Five times, in fact, they decided against using cluster munitions even after he gave them the go-ahead because they believed the risk to civilians was too great. "We didn't just shoot there willy-nilly," he says. "It was the enemy who was putting his civilians at risk. ... They put their artillery right in town. Now who's at fault there?"

Rather than call upon their artillery to hit a target with cluster munitions, U.S. ground forces preferred either to use other weapons, such as M-16 rifles or tank rounds, or to summon the Air Force to hit Iraqi targets from the sky with precision bombs. "Cluster munitions were the last choice, not the first," Cayce says.

Additionally, check out the new types of cluster munitions:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/cbu-97.htm

These were dropped from three B-52 aircraft on the two Republican Guard divisions on their sortie out of Baghdad to try and stop the Marine advance on the capital.

The Iraqi divisions took 80 percent casualties in a little over 30 seconds. Because these home in on you.

And...

The BLU-108/B submunition is currently produced for the SFW (NSN 1325-01-8801), a wide-area munition in the 1000-pound class. The BLU-108/B submunition weighs approximately 60 pounds, contains four warheads, and orientation and stabilization system, a radar altimeter, and a rocket motor. Each warhead fires an explosively-formed projectile triggered by a two-color infrared sensor. At a preset altitude sensed by a radar altimeter, a rocket motor fires to spin the submunition and initiate an ascent. The submunition then releases its four projectiles, which are lofted over the target area. The projectile's sensor detects a vehicle's infrared signature, and an explosively formed penetrator fires at the heat source. If no target is detected after a period of time, the projectiles automatically detonate after a preset time interval, causing damage to material and personnel.

and

Area Denial Anti-personnel Mine (ADAM) mines are delivered by 155mm howitzer. ADAM should not be planned on hard surface roads or airfields as the mines will shatter or break when hitting asphalt or concrete.

ADAM is an antipersonnel mine activated by deployed trip lines. There are 36 wedge-shaped mines contained in the 155-mm projectile. Minefield density can be selectively determined by altering the number of rounds applied. There are currently three densities: low, medium, and high. The mines are expelled from the projectile (approximately 600 meters) over the designated target. Shortly after ground impact, up to seven trip line sensors are released out to a maximum length of 20 feet. The detonators are armed to fiction in the event of any small disturbance. The ADAM mine has lethality out to 15 feet. Self-destruct times are 4 hours for short self-destruct (M731) and 48 hours for long self-destruct (M692).

Maybe reporters don't know jack shit about weapons, and how careful we might be about using them.

*snip*

And the reliability of these weapons is 100%?

You seem to know a little about munitions so you'll be aware that there hasn't been a weapons system developed that never failed.

Oh, and while the military may be cautious about using them, you seem fairly excited:

Well, once they run out of places to hide underground, the Israelis can start using MLRS to deliver cluster munitions over wide areas to catch Hezbollah personnel who no longer have cover.

That, and aircraft delivered cluster munitions.

And the reliability of these weapons is 100%?

Reliable enough that the US military sees it as a radical improvment in safety to our own troops.

You seem to know a little about munitions so you'll be aware that there hasn't been a weapons system developed that never failed.
That's a far cry from "sucks just as much as the old ones" or "that will never work". I recall idiots saying that the hit-to-kill mechanism would "never work" and now it has worked in combat. These are technical solutions to technical problems.

Oh, and while the military may be cautious about using them, you seem fairly excited:
If you are in the military, and know the target area is clear for cluster munitions, you use them promptly. Yes, it is quite exciting to see people caught in the blizzard of what looks like thousands of lightning flashes - and then they're all gone.

If you are in the military, and know the target area is clear for cluster munitions, you use them promptly. Yes, it is quite exciting to see people caught in the blizzard of what looks like thousands of lightning flashes - and then they're all gone.

Especially if they're Muslim. I don't even know why you make such a big deal about civilian casualities when they're all the same to you.

:rolleyes:

That's a far cry from "sucks just as much as the old ones" or "that will never work". I recall idiots saying that the hit-to-kill mechanism would "never work" and now it has worked in combat. These are technical solutions to technical problems.

See this is where you and I differ. I would have described it as a technical solution to a humanitarian problem. Cluster munitions will leave bomblets on the ground, be it lots or few they will still kill in years to come. This bothers me but I doubt I'll ever be able to explain this to the kind of people who think collateral damage is an acceptable way of describing dead civilians.

Especially if they're Muslim. I don't even know why you make such a big deal about civilian casualities when they're all the same to you.

:rolleyes:

Because it is imperative, if there's going to be a solution to the problem, that their children be forcibly re-educated.

Weapons don't kill everyone, no matter how well designed.

See this is where you and I differ. I would have described it as a technical solution to a humanitarian problem. Cluster munitions will leave bomblets on the ground, be it lots or few they will still kill in years to come. This bothers me but I doubt I'll ever be able to explain this to the kind of people who think collateral damage is an acceptable way of describing dead civilians.

An ordinary artillery shell doesn't have a self-destruct mechanism.

Look at what a previously fired 155mm shell did on a beach in Palestinian territory. It blew up long after it was fired.

Putting self-destruct mechanisms in every type of warhead is a good idea - not just in cluster munitions.

As far as collateral damage goes, the Fourth Geneva Convention is quite clear.

Forces that do not separate themselves from civilian populations are solely responsible for any civilian casualties that result.

Of course, I've noticed that no one wants to read the actual words in the Conventions, but would rather skew the interpretation to protect insurgents and damn any Western nation that fights them.

An ordinary artillery shell doesn't have a self-destruct mechanism.

Look at what a previously fired 155mm shell did on a beach in Palestinian territory. It blew up long after it was fired.

Putting self-destruct mechanisms in every type of warhead is a good idea - not just in cluster munitions.

As far as collateral damage goes, the Fourth Geneva Convention is quite clear.

Forces that do not separate themselves from civilian populations are solely responsible for any civilian casualties that result.

Of course, I've noticed that no one wants to read the actual words in the Conventions, but would rather skew the interpretation to protect insurgents and damn any Western nation that fights them.

Ahh, I get it. You do understand the distinction between legal right and moral right don't you? Just because something is legal, it doesn't always follow that it's moral.

Ahh, I get it. You do understand the distinction between legal right and moral right don't you? Just because something is legal, it doesn't always follow that it's moral.

And just because something is moral, doesn't mean it's conducive to survival.

Firing back at Hamas and Hezbollah had to occur sometime. You can only take so many suicide attacks and rocket attacks and kidnappings - which, IMHO, are only proxy attacks by Syria and Iran.

Sooner or later, you have to shoot back, and it's war.

People get killed in war. Despite a legal code that would hand out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

Firing back at Hamas and Hezbollah had to occur sometime. You can only take so many suicide attacks and rocket attacks and kidnappings - which, IMHO, are only proxy attacks by Syria and Iran.

Israel have been firing back at Hamas and Hezbollah for years. What have they achieved? Alot of dead people on both sides and a swelling of their ranks as grief stricken families join up to get revenge.

Only a fucking idiot would argue that a military solution is the best one to use against a terrorist force. Give me an example of a terrorist organisation being destroyed utterly by force.

Israel have been firing back at Hamas and Hezbollah for years. What have they achieved? Alot of dead people on both sides and a swelling of their ranks as grief stricken families join up to get revenge.

Only a fucking idiot would argue that a military solution is the best one to use against a terrorist force. Give me an example of a terrorist organisation being destroyed utterly by force.

And only a fool would stand by and do nothing while your citizens are getting blown up by suicide bombers.

And only a fool would stand by and do nothing while your citizens are getting blown up by suicide bombers.

So you really believe that the current application of force will reduce the number of terrorist attacks on Israel?

And only a fool would stand by and do nothing while your citizens are getting blown up by suicide bombers.
Sorry, can you show me when the last time Hezb'allah suicide bombed in Israel-proper? As a matter of interest.

Damn it, DK got himself banned. I guess I'll be off then.

Does anyone else find Corn's war boner a bit... disturbing?

So you really believe that the current application of force will reduce the number of terrorist attacks on Israel?

There hasn't been one yet :D

I know I know its only been a week but so far, the worst that has happened is the Katushya rocket attacks on Israel.

Sorry, can you show me when the last time Hezb'allah suicide bombed in Israel-proper? As a matter of interest.

Yea you're right. In regards to Hezbollah, they got tired of 1) the rocket attacks and 2) didn't take to kindly to the cross border violence from lebanon and attacked them.

Yea you're right. In regards to Hezbollah, they got tired of 1) the rocket attacks and 2) didn't take to kindly to the cross border violence from lebanon and attacked them.
Grand. At least you admit what you were implying/stating outright, was in fact, incorrect.

Because it is imperative, if there's going to be a solution to the problem, that their children be forcibly re-educated.


50 or more years of being on the receiving end has made no impact whatsoever. But part of being locked in arrogance and bereft of human empathy is an endless repetition of the same mistake.

Grand. At least you admit what you were implying/stating outright, was in fact, incorrect.

I was thinking about Hamas at the time and not Hezbollah. Hey, it happens :)

Well I guess he is still alive has he has just stated that he will not release the soldiers unless the air attacks stop whereas Israel says they will stop when the soldiers are released.

Also in the news today: Israeli 'targeted' missiles strike house, kill two UN officials. Good going guys.

Anyone have the coordinates for the rest of the UN? Hopefully someone will get them to Israel before the end of the conflict, sure would be nice to get rid of the UN and start a real, sensible, International forum that would help crush the islamic facists and rid the world of this problem.

Hezbollah rockets have killed 8 people, total.
How many people have died in their terrorist attacks???

How many people have died in their terrorist attacks???

How utterly insensitive of you, didn't you mean to say "freedom fighter" attacks...

:p

Does anyone else find Corn's war boner a bit... disturbing?

I'm still caught up with the title. I mean, I realize that Hezbolah is technically a party, but that doesn't mean that they're always getting hammered. :p

Damn it, DK got himself banned. I guess I'll be off then.

Banned? Where?

Banned? Where?

Read his locked Journalism captured by Hezbollah thread.

Banned? Where?
A one day forum ban.

Have a gander in moderation.

Only a fucking idiot would argue that a military solution is the best one to use against a terrorist force. Give me an example of a terrorist organisation being destroyed utterly by force.

The Shining Path in Peru. Once the military was motivated to actually get off their asses and FIGHT, the Shining Path was as dust in the wind.

Terrorists can be defeated by military force. But you must follow these rules to do so:

1. Be ruthless. If the terrorists are hiding among civilians, hit them anyway. If the local population is helping the terrorists, destroy their economy so that they cannot (if they are already opposed to you, being nice won't change that).

2. Deny them safe harbour. An insurgency cannot exist without safe havens in which to train and resupply. Deny them this by any means necessary.

3. Never let up. You have more soldiers and resources than they do; this is guaranteed. Use this advantage. If they seek to create no-go zones, push into them. If they attack garrisons, reinforce those garrisons and fortify them.

4. Win the propaganda war. Deny the enemy spin-doctors access to your people; kill them or imprison them if you can. Always show the enemy in the worst possible light, and deny outright that they have any legitimate grievance (especially if they do - but remember to try and solve any such grievance post-war. You don't want to have to do this again in 20 years).

This is what the Peruvian armed forces did. And it appears to be what the IDF is doing in Lebanon.