NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you believe in it or not?

I personally, as a follower of Christ, do not believe in any sort of destiny. I beleive that God might have his will for me, and if I choose to follow that will, then i might do what He wants. But I have the choice to decide what I become and what happens to me in the end. And although there are some things that might happen to me that i can't control, i can decide to react to those events in ways to help determine my own desired fate.

What do you think?

To cut a long viewpoint short, Humans suffer from no predetermined fate that God himself is not subject to.

Do you believe in it or not?

I personally, as a follower of Christ, do not believe in any sort of destiny. I beleive that God might have his will for me, and if I choose to follow that will, then i might do what He wants. But I have the choice to decide what I become and what happens to me in the end. And although there are some things that might happen to me that i can't control, i can decide to react to those events in ways to help determine my own desired fate.

What do you think?

You know, Lutherans follow Christ too.

Everything has a purpose. Everyone has a purpose.

it gets tricky... very tricky

it's very hard for me to explain

it's one of those things you know?

I'm not sure if it's comforting to know that I was destined to be what I am or not. Is the thought of me being predestined comforting to you?

Everything has a purpose. Everyone has a purpose.


I just can't believe that. I don't know why.

predestination is the most useless and depressing of all possible christian doctrines.

why would anyone want to believe that god planned to have polpot murder millions of cambodians? (trying not to godwin the thread)

if i am predestined to be whatever god wants of me, why should i put any effort into it? if its what god wants, it will happen no matter what i do.

I just can't believe that. I don't know why.
you don't believe that God has a purpose for everyone?

You know, Lutherans follow Christ too.


Didn't say they don't :p

you don't believe that God has a purpose for everyone?


Well I think he might have a will for us all, but its our choice whether or not to fulfill that or not. Not like how some believe that it will happen no matter what.

I refuse to believe in destiny, fate, what have you. I don't like the feeling that I have absolutely no control.

Do you believe in predestination??

This thread was inevitable.

Well I think he might have a will for us all, but its our choice whether or not to fulfill that or not. Not like how some believe that it will happen no matter what.
ah, okay.

predestination is the most useless and depressing of all possible christian doctrines.

why would anyone want to believe that god planned to have polpot murder millions of cambodians? (trying not to godwin the thread)

if i am predestined to be whatever god wants of me, why should i put any effort into it? if its what god wants, it will happen no matter what i do.


Agreed

This thread was inevitable.


Does that make me God then? :p

Does that make me God then? :p
blasphemy

you don't believe that God has a purpose for everyone?
no

god having a purpose for us goes against the idea of free will

god has a desire for us, that is that we do whatever it is that would qualify us for heaven. our lives are completely up to us.

blasphemy


Hush ye, I will smite thee, for I am thy lord, Zilam! hah

This thread was inevitable.
Along with the idea of predestination, here's a thought:
If something is absolutely inevitable, can it be bad?

no

god having a purpose for us goes against the idea of free will

god has a desire for us, that is that we do whatever it is that would qualify us for heaven. our lives are completely up to us.
how does having a purpose negate free will?

blasphemy


Yup. Because he is, by implication, questioning my divinity. I really should strike him down. But I'm feeling in a very good mood today.

Um.

If the universe can be boiled down to a series of predictable events (assuming an ultimate level of understanding) then a form of predestination does exist.

Um.

If the universe can be boiled down to a series of predictable events (assuming an ultimate level of understanding) then a form of predestination does exist.
However, quantum physics has shown the universe to be random and chaotic on its smallest scale, and so you really can't predict what will happen.

Well I think he might have a will for us all, but its our choice whether or not to fulfill that or not. Not like how some believe that it will happen no matter what.

Think of Oedipus. He was prophesized to kill his father and marry his mother. Even though there was an attempt at preventing this, it happened anyway.

So goes life. Nature has a will for you, otherwise you wouldnt be here.

Just imagine us all as Sims.

However, quantum physics has shown the universe to be random and chaotic on its smallest scale, and so you really can't predict what will happen.

Technically you can because everything happens.

I don't believe in predestination. If there is a deity out there, I don't think he's sadistic enough to effectively condemn part of humanity to Hell in advance.

Technically you can because everything happens.
In alternate universes, theoretically. But not all possibilities can happen simultaneously within the same space-time fabric, because probability fields collapse when the event is measured by an observer.

(Maybe there should be a Godwin's Law about degenerating into pointless metaphysics)

Do you believe in it or not?

I personally, as a follower of Christ, do not believe in any sort of destiny. I beleive that God might have his will for me, and if I choose to follow that will, then i might do what He wants. But I have the choice to decide what I become and what happens to me in the end. And although there are some things that might happen to me that i can't control, i can decide to react to those events in ways to help determine my own desired fate.

What do you think?

I don't believe in predestination, but I don't believe we have a choice in what happens to us.

When it comes to predestination, I'm inclined to think there's something to it, although not necessarily in the exact sense it's usually thought of.

Basically everything people do is the result of some kind of if/then or other cause/effect calculation, whether conscious or unconscious. Each equation builds on the previous ones. So if all the factors are known, every action and occurance should be entirely predictable. And if just some of the factors are known, it's often still easy to make a pretty darned good guess. Just by normal human understanding, for instance, you can predict with decent accuracy whether someone you know is likely to suddenly walk off the job/quit school--and that's with most of the factors likely hidden from you.

To me, it's easy to see how a being of sufficiently massive intelligence (ie, God) and enough known data could know exactly what will happen with everything, while not needing to force the issue at all.

you don't believe that God has a purpose for everyone?
I can't buy that either, at least not on the Big Deep Cosmic Level which usually is implied by that phrase. And I don't know what drives people to seek a Purpose, or a Meaning in life.

Plus, I've never been one to really care about the concept of capital-P "Purpose," at least not in any good way. I don't like the idea at all. It's way too much like a parent trying to decide their child's career path, or who they should marry. It's bad enough when a parent tries it, and the parent can't send you to Hell for telling them how bad their idea sucks.

And, if there was a Purpose, I think it'd be made a lot more obvious to people. I can't imagine God really going, "yeah, you've got a purpose--but figure it out for yourself." Any Big Purpose would be too important to leave to the meager chances that some human is going to fluke in on it, while the person is ignorant of what it is. And, leaving the Purpose unstated also leaves a huge opening for evil clods, fanatics, and other slimeballs to advance their own agenda as if it's a Great Purpose in Life.

Personally I'm better off living my life, than caring about whether there's any Purpose to it or worrying about whether I'm fulfilling said purpose.

Do you believe in it or not?

I personally, as a follower of Christ, do not believe in any sort of destiny. I beleive that God might have his will for me, and if I choose to follow that will, then i might do what He wants. But I have the choice to decide what I become and what happens to me in the end. And although there are some things that might happen to me that i can't control, i can decide to react to those events in ways to help determine my own desired fate.

What do you think?What happens if one person's will is dependent upon another person's, and that first person fails in their will?

If something is absolutely inevitable, can it be bad?

Yes. It was absolutely inevitable that they would make a sequel to Highlander. It was very bad.

if i am predestined to be whatever god wants of me, why should i put any effort into it? if its what god wants, it will happen no matter what i do.

Well, if you're predestined to put effort into it, it doesn't matter either way, does it?

I don't believe in predestination. If there is a deity out there, I don't think he's sadistic enough to effectively condemn part of humanity to Hell in advance.

Why not? Go Sadism!

What happens if one person's will is dependent upon another person's, and that first person fails in their will?

The Theory of Co-Dependent Will states that failure by either party will result in a complete refund of fate.

The Theory of Co-Dependent Will states that failure by either party will result in a complete refund of fate.

Yay refunds!

Two words: Quantum Mechanics

how does having a purpose negate free will?
that depends on what you mean by purpose eh?

god desires that we do what is necessary to join him in heaven for eternity. that is a supposition of christian faith.

if god has a purpose for us in this life, that means he has an active plan on how human life should go. a plan that we can work with or against. how can he have a plan if he doesnt exert any control over the situation? freewill requires that he exert no control over human actions. without controlling anyone's actions there can be no plan. wihtout a plan what purpose could we possibly have beyond living a life good enough to get into heaven?

and beyond that, what would be the point of having a purpose if we have no way of knowing what that purpose is?

I just can't believe that. I don't know why.

Because you have no evidence of it?

That's the best reason not to believe something.

that depends on what you mean by purpose eh?

god desires that we do what is necessary to join him in heaven for eternity. that is a supposition of christian faith.

if god has a purpose for us in this life, that means he has an active plan on how human life should go. a plan that we can work with or against. how can he have a plan if he doesnt exert any control over the situation? freewill requires that he exert no control over human actions. without controlling anyone's actions there can be no plan. wihtout a plan what purpose could we possibly have beyond living a life good enough to get into heaven?

and beyond that, what would be the point of having a purpose if we have no way of knowing what that purpose is?

It's probably that I am in an indepth study of Ephesians right now, but I could argue that God's desire is not for us to "do what is required to be in heaven" but he desires that we live our lives to glorify him. Therefore we have a purpose, whether or not we choose to live up to what we are designed for is up to us.

Of course I could always argue the complete opposite view too.

Do you believe in it or not?

I personally, as a follower of Christ, do not believe in any sort of destiny. I beleive that God might have his will for me, and if I choose to follow that will, then i might do what He wants. But I have the choice to decide what I become and what happens to me in the end. And although there are some things that might happen to me that i can't control, i can decide to react to those events in ways to help determine my own desired fate.

What do you think?

Predestination has nothing to do with free will.

What do you mean by predestination? As in the general philosophical position of determinism (hard or soft) or the whole religious 'God has a plan for me already, I have a destiny' trip?

I'm a determinist - free will is an illusion. Quantum probabilistic perturbations resolve statistically into absolute events on the macro level (like the decay of radionuclides), so all events above the level of particles are determinate, and those are the ones that actually matter. Information change and movement is absolutely predictable, fundamentally, and conserved. And that's the only possible point of controversy - otherwise, there is nothing at all that points towards absolute volition. Determinism is literally a physical axiom - it arises inescapably from the universe's observed system.

Seeing as how there is no divine power in the universe, it'd be pretty fucking hard for destiny to exist.

It's probably that I am in an indepth study of Ephesians right now, but I could argue that God's desire is not for us to "do what is required to be in heaven" but he desires that we live our lives to glorify him. Therefore we have a purpose, whether or not we choose to live up to what we are designed for is up to us.

Of course I could always argue the complete opposite view too.
to me, that falls under the generic "do what needs to be done to get into heaven" category since it is the same for every human being on earth.

are there people who glorify god who arent good enough to get into heaven? are there people who get into heaven who dont glorify god?


my definition of purpose would be something taylored to the individual. as in people who say that their purpose is to run the local homeless shelter or to be a good wife and mother. whatever. as long as it is specific to the individual.

my definition of purpose would be something taylored to the individual. as in people who say that their purpose is to run the local homeless shelter or to be a good wife and mother. whatever. as long as it is specific to the individual.
Self-indulgency is a purpose, but I don’t think many spiritualists would argue that that gets you into heaven. One reason that I hate religion or anything resembling it.

predestination is the most useless and depressing of all possible christian doctrines.

why would anyone want to believe that god planned to have polpot murder millions of cambodians? (trying not to godwin the thread)

if i am predestined to be whatever god wants of me, why should i put any effort into it? if its what god wants, it will happen no matter what i do.

Exactly. If God is perfect within himself, and needs nothing, what the hell would be the point in creating something without free will? If he wanted to do things for us, the world certainly wouldn't be the way it is now.

I believe that people have a purpose, a 'destiny', but they are not neccessarily bound to it. I think of fate as being something much different; however, the strongest bonds of fate are self-forged.

Exactly. If God is perfect within himself, and needs nothing, what the hell would be the point in creating something without free will? If he wanted to do things for us, the world certainly wouldn't be the way it is now.

I believe that people have a purpose, a 'destiny', but they are not neccessarily bound to it. I think of fate as being something much different; however, the strongest bonds of fate are self-forged.
i think of it as thirds. one third is our genetics; one third is our upbringing and surroundings; one third is our own determination. its probably not so evenly divided but i like to imagine that i have at least that much control over my own destiny.

too many people bind themselves to a fate they dont want simply because they think it can be no other way.

to me, that falls under the generic "do what needs to be done to get into heaven" category since it is the same for every human being on earth.
living a life that is truely glorifying to God has nothing to do with "trying to get into heaven" it's not your goal of "getting into heaven" that needs to be achieved, it's selfish to think so. A person who is selfish is hardly glorifying God.
are there people who glorify god who arent good enough to get into heaven?
that would depend on how you define "glorifying God"

are there people who get into heaven who dont glorify god?
that again depends on your definition of glorifying God

my definition of purpose would be something taylored to the individual. as in people who say that their purpose is to run the local homeless shelter or to be a good wife and mother. whatever. as long as it is specific to the individual.
I believe we have a specific purpose, one tailored to our individual being, but can only realize that purpose and choose to pursue it through living a life that is glorifying to God because in the grand scheme that is what we are made for, we glorify Him through our life, through our circumstances, through our living out our purpose to the best of our ability.

My signature says it all.

For the record, I'm an agnostic.