NationStates Jolt Archive

Something I thought up: if you ever get shit flung at you because of being German and the whole WWII affair, how do you handle it?

being from Wisconsin I'm mostly german but being an American I can still villify those evil krauts ;)

interesting thing. There is a town called New Berlin that changed its pronunciation from Ber-lin to Berlun when US entered the war. Saurkraut became liberty cabbage (freedom fries anyone?):p and there was something else. Another name change in WI if I remember correctly. Can't remember what it is though

O, another interesting thing. I know the swastika isn't only german but it is engraved on a few of the older buildings on campus (in the brickwork) and its really interesting and kinda cool!

Do people still vilify Germany? I wasn't aware that they did... especially in the US where so many of us are of German descent anyhow...

i was joking of course but greater alem is upset because nobody but him thinks the commies were worse than the nazi's

I grin stupidly.

Except one old man on a bus once. I dared say something German to a friend of mine who did German at school.

So the old guy went off at me, and we had a debate for 15 minutes until the bus stopped. What a dick that guy was...

I get more annoyed at the type of people who claim they are German, usually because of ancestry. Being German is not a matter of blood, it's a mindset, a collection of experiences...and a passport.

I get more annoyed at the type of people who claim they are German, usually because of ancestry. Being German is not a matter of blood, it's a mindset, a collection of experiences...and a passport.

Your face.

Something I thought up: if you ever get shit flung at you because of being German and the whole WWII affair, how do you handle it?

Never happened to me.... I guess I would try to explain that those were my grandparents, not me. If that didn't help, I'd just smile at them until I found an excuse to get away.

Your face.

considers himself not to be a mix of german, polish, and slovak, but rather an American

Do people still vilify Germany? I wasn't aware that they did... especially in the US where so many of us are of German descent anyhow...

Weren't you in another thread just the other day saying how you were an Italian American? Or perhaps you were just saying that you lived in an Italian immigrant neighborhood?

Either way, IF you are both Italian AND German, and if YOU don't get teased for WWII events then I doubt anyone gets teased for Axis WWII heritage. It could only get worse if you have a Japanese Uncle somewhere along the family lines as well huh? :p


As to the topic, I'm married to a German Wisconsin girl, in the New Berlin/Ripon/Green-lake area, and there are TONS of them still there. Just last weekend we took our infant baby girl there to get her baptized by her grandparent's house and they invited all of their relatives (Germans on both sides of the Mom's side) and we practically filled the chapel with ancient German Wisconsinite farmers, but I don't think the English/French descended minister was nervous at all ;) Maybe they don't get teased just because there are so many of them.

Your face.
Well, compare me to you, or to our Wisconsin friend here. Hell, compare me to someone who's never left Germany.

There are pretty fundamental differences in pretty much all the things that allow us to make up differences between cultures and peoples.

So apart from the fact that you have to have a German citizenship to officially be German, it is the experience of growing up in Germany that makes a person German, not who my great-grandparents were. Because I've seen that theory debunked when a whole lot of "Volga-Germans" came to live not too far away from us because they allegedly had German ancestry. Turns out they didn't fit in much better than the brown people...:rolleyes:

Weren't you in another thread just the other day saying how you were an Italian American?

I'm American whose background is Italian (specifically Sicilian) and also Puerto Rican (which is btw also US American for those keeping score.) When I said "in the US where so many of us are of German descent", I meant it in the collective sense, where so many US citizens are descended from German immigrants.

I suppose my point is that since many people here either have some German heritage or know someone who does, it's surprising to think they're still treated badly for something that happened 70 years ago and has no relation to them today. And hell, my folks have been to Germany twice so far and want to return.

So apart from the fact that you have to have a German citizenship to officially be German, it is the experience of growing up in Germany that makes a person German, not who my great-grandparents were. Because I've seen that theory debunked when a whole lot of "Volga-Germans" came to live not too far away from us because they allegedly had German ancestry. Turns out they didn't fit in much better than the brown people...:rolleyes:

Seconded. SO seconded.

Sorry, I thought that the topic of the thread was about persons who were either German or of Germanic descent, and whether they were still vilified. :rolleyes:

Sorry, I thought that the topic of the thread was about persons who were either German or of Germanic descent, and whether they were still vilified. :rolleyes:

Good point. Question to the OP :

Did that actually ever happen to you? Before you voiced your opinion about how much you admired the Nazis, that is?

I get more annoyed at the type of people who claim they are German, usually because of ancestry. Being German is not a matter of blood, it's a mindset, a collection of experiences...and a passport.Not to mention the ability to speak German to a degree that most natives would be able to understand you.

Puerto Rican (which is btw also US American for those keeping score.)
Only so America could have a larger pool to draw the WWI draft from.
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I really don't care, my distant relatives fought for retribution of WWI.

Only so America could have a larger pool to draw the WWI draft from.
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I really don't care, my distant relatives fought for retribution of WWI.

Whatever. :rolleyes:

Good point. Question to the OP :

Did that actually ever happen to you? Before you voiced your opinion about how much you admired the Nazis, that is?

That pretty much sums up my life. And I never admired the Nazis.

That pretty much sums up my life. And I never admired the Nazis.

You do sound like you're suffering from a severe case of vicitm complex though

And as for not admiring the Nazis... I think you had pretty much everyone on here fooled, then.

You do sound like you're suffering from a severe case of vicitm complex though

That usually happens when you're a victim.

That usually happens when you're a victim.

Ah, yes. And who victimises you?

Ah, yes. And who victimises you?

Virtually everyone who hears the word "German."

Not to mention the collective victimisation.

Virtually everyone who hears the word "German."
So you run around, telling random people that you are German?

Dude, people can hear that I am German by just listening to me speak. They wouldn't be able to do that with you. And I have no intention of ever pretending I am a victim of any sort of ongoing discrimination.

You do have a victim complex, and justified it ain't.

Virtually everyone who hears the word "German."

Not to mention the collective victimisation.

I'd suggest moving to Europe or America, then, as I can honestly say I never experienced any negativity regarding my nationality. Not even when I was in England or France :D

So you run around, telling random people that you are German?

No, they ask. Ethnicity is one of the first questions you get asked around here.

I'd suggest moving to Europe or America, then, as I can honestly say I never experienced any negativity regarding my nationality. Not even when I was in England or France :DI got spoken to in German in France once, once I mentioned I was German :p

No, they ask. Ethnicity is one of the first questions you get asked around here.

That was much the same when I was in Canada. People were impressed that I spoke both languages so well as a German, and most happily told me about their relations to the country, or about how they admired certain artists (Pina Bausch, Nina Hagen, Joseph Beuys, etc). Or else we would talk about football :D

No, they ask. Ethnicity is one of the first questions you get asked around here.
So, can you give me an idea of one of that type of conversation then?

I got spoken to in German in France once, once I mentioned I was German :p

Same here. But they happily switched back to French when they realised I spoke it ok. They were very encouraging. :)

So, can you give me an idea of one of that type of conversation then?

"Hi. What's your name? What's your natio (nationality)?"

"Hi. What's your name? What's your natio (nationality)?"

And what do you do if someone actually believes you're a German national and asks you to translate something for them? :p :D

And what do you do if someone actually believes you're a German national and asks you to translate something for them? :p :D

Nobody does. By natio, they mean ethnicity.

There was a Jewish guy on my dorm floor Freshman year who found anything and everything German despicable. He hated me from the first day of class, without having ever talked to me. One time I cornered him and tried to figure out what was up with his behavior. He went on some rant about how all Germans were beasts, and unworthy of living in a civilized country. He said all people of German descent had collective guilt for the holocaust, and that the guilt could never be lifted.

I, of course, responded to the charge. I promptly informed him that my family had been in the United States since well before the civil war. My relatives fought in the First World War and the Second World War for the United States. I tried to show him the flaw of his claim of collective ethnic guilt, and I failed, because he just wouldn't listen.

So, finally, I informed him that my family was also Polish, and were forced to flee from Poland following the Partition by Prussia, Austria and Russia. That my ancestors had experienced pain at the hands of Germans too, and I held nothing against myself. He had nothing to counter that argument, but he persisted in his false beliefs on the issue.

interesting thing. There is a town called New Berlin that changed its pronunciation from Ber-lin to Berlun when US entered the war. Saurkraut became liberty cabbage (freedom fries anyone?):p and there was something else. Another name change in WI if I remember correctly. Can't remember what it is though
My hometown, North Canton, Ohio, changed it's name during the First World War from New Berlin to what it is now.

It just goes to show that some people are idiots no matter where they go. So instead of getting upset that someone is offended by your German roots, take comfort in knowing they are small-minded idiots.

"Hi. What's your name? What's your natio (nationality)?"
You: "I'm German."
They: ?

I wanna know the whole thing.

And try to stay half-way realistic. I know quite a few people who used to live in Melbourne, and they've never mentioned this obsesssion with ethnicity that you live for. They usually say that it's no different to Brisbane.

It just goes to show that some people are idiots no matter where they go.
Tragically true.

You: "I'm German."
They: ?

I wanna know the whole thing.

And try to stay half-way realistic. I know quite a few people who used to live in Melbourne, and they've never mentioned this obsesssion with ethnicity that you live for. They usually say that it's no different to Brisbane.

It's not as bad as it used to be, because I'm in with the Croatian crowd, and they'd probably be Nazis if given the option. Very proud of the Ustashe. One of their chants is "Isus, Maria, Ustasha, Croatzia!"

This is a conversation back then:

Me: I'm German
Them: So you're one of Hitler's relatives?

Along those lines. I dunno, maybe it's just my area. It's very ethnic. I live in the most ethnic street in Victoria, it was in the Herald on Australia Day.

Me: I'm German
Them: So you're one of Hitler's relatives?
Hehe, and that's all?

Don't worry about it, you'd get worse if you were from New Zealand.

Hehe, and that's all?

Don't worry about it, you'd get worse if you were from New Zealand.

That's just the first conversation.

That's just the first conversation.
Well then bloody well tell me already. I asked you what this discrimination consists of in your case, and you still haven't answered me.

Well then bloody well tell me already. I asked you what this discrimination consists of in your case, and you still haven't answered me.

Well, it's just intense versions of that. When we were doing the Holocaust for ethics in RE in Year 9, some kid said "Good, they're just stupid Jews." The teacher said "Do we have a little Hitler here?" And some other kid said "I don't think he's the one you should be calling Hitler," obviously referring to me.

Like most Americans, I'm a mixture, but more German than anything else. But the subject of my nationality has never come up, except on certain websites where someone asks dumb questions about people of German descent. ;)

As for any Nazi comparisons, my ancestors have been in the US since before the 1st WW.

Something I thought up: if you ever get shit flung at you because of being German and the whole WWII affair, how do you handle it?
Well...its a funny story, and it has more to do with stupid Americans than anything.

Throughout high school my friends would make fun of me because most people in school thought I looked like the stereotypical German....so they would sometimes do the Heil Hitler thing to me (not seriously...they didnt beleive in Nazism or anything) and then the ones who knew I was Jewish just had a field day with me and would say stuff like "Arnt you supposed to hate yourself...being a Jewish-German...and...I didnt know there were anymore of you left." (These were usually coutnered by a well-placed ethnic joke by me).;)

Anyway, in conclusion while I do like my background and I do take pride in my familys history...I dont call myself a German (unless we are talking about ethnicity)....culturally...or nationality-wise I always call myself an American. Always.

But I am going to start German class this fall so maybe that will change.;) :D

Never happened to me.... I guess I would try to explain that those were my grandparents, not me. If that didn't help, I'd just smile at them until I found an excuse to get away.

funny how people use their ancestors in many many ways. like if your ancestors were slaves then you claim that you have emotional damage from them being oppressed and that you can feel their emotions.

but if your grandparents were Nazi's then you say that they were just your grandparents and they are not you.

so which one is it? do we help people out because they have been oppressed for hundreds and thousands of years or do we say these are new times and what your ancestors did doesnt matter?

It's not as bad as it used to be, because I'm in with the Croatian crowd, and they'd probably be Nazis if given the option. Very proud of the Ustashe. One of their chants is "Isus, Maria, Ustasha, Croatzia!"

This is a conversation back then:

Me: I'm German
Them: So you're one of Hitler's relatives?

Along those lines. I dunno, maybe it's just my area. It's very ethnic. I live in the most ethnic street in Victoria, it was in the Herald on Australia Day.


Sounds like you must get around in the wrong circles. I live in Melbourne, in the heartland of the Western Suburbs, and my friends are from many cultures, ethnicities, countries and religions, and none of them talk about such victimisation as you're trying to describe. Sounds like you hanging with the bottom of the gene pool, and need to get amongst more intelligent circles - tear yourself away from the germanophobic crowd...

Dont take this kid (the OP) too seriously. He ran a poll a while ago trying to prove that US Americans were all stupid.
The way to prove this, according to him was asking the question "What do you associate Nazis with?". If you answered Germans, Hitler, WW2 or war, this would automatically prove that all Americans are stupid.

He seems to be just kinda fcked up.

Dont take this kid (the OP) too seriously. He ran a poll a while ago trying to prove that US Americans were all stupid.
The way to prove this, according to him was asking the question "What do you associate Nazis with?". If you answered Germans, Hitler, WW2 or war, this would automatically prove that all Americans are stupid.

He seems to be just kinda fcked up.

Really not a nice thing to say, but I have to agree with you here. A regular flamebaiter, obiosuly with nothing much better to do.

Dont take this kid (the OP) too seriously. He ran a poll a while ago trying to prove that US Americans were all stupid.
The way to prove this, according to him was asking the question "What do you associate Nazis with?". If you answered Germans, Hitler, WW2 or war, this would automatically prove that all Americans are stupid.

He seems to be just kinda fcked up.

No I didn't. That might have been Ny Nordland.

No I didn't. That might have been Ny Nordland.
Since you didnt see my post I'm posting it again...I think you should follow the advice in the second to last paragraph:

Something I thought up: if you ever get shit flung at you because of being German and the whole WWII affair, how do you handle it?
Well...its a funny story, and it has more to do with stupid Americans than anything.

Throughout high school my friends would make fun of me because most people in school thought I looked like the stereotypical German....so they would sometimes do the Heil Hitler thing to me (not seriously...they didnt beleive in Nazism or anything) and then the ones who knew I was Jewish just had a field day with me and would say stuff like "Arnt you supposed to hate yourself...being a Jewish-German...and...I didnt know there were anymore of you left." (These were usually coutnered by a well-placed ethnic joke by me).;)

Anyway, in conclusion while I do like my background and I do take pride in my familys history...I dont call myself a German (unless we are talking about ethnicity)....culturally...or nationality-wise I always call myself an American. Always.

But I am going to start German class this fall so maybe that will change.;) :D

funny how people use their ancestors in many many ways. like if your ancestors were slaves then you claim that you have emotional damage from them being oppressed and that you can feel their emotions.

but if your grandparents were Nazi's then you say that they were just your grandparents and they are not you.

so which one is it? do we help people out because they have been oppressed for hundreds and thousands of years or do we say these are new times and what your ancestors did doesnt matter?

I'm not saying it didn't matter. I am who I am and what I am because of my ancestors. But that doesn't make me responsible for their actions, does it?

I'm not saying it didn't matter. I am who I am and what I am because of my ancestors. But that doesn't make me responsible for their actions, does it?

i was more on your side. too many people use their ancestors as shields and the ability to take freebies. i really have to question if these people even knew anything about their ancestrial heritage or if they are just trying to get a free ride through life. and in some instances people are blamed for their ancestors decisions. or ancestors of someone else in your race decisions.

with humans in the question equality will never happen

No I didn't. That might have been Ny Nordland.

I really seem to remember it was you. It definitely wasnt Ny Nordland. But as I cannot even find the thread anymore, I may just have been drunk or made up that entire thread in my mind.

Which would be very disturbing.

I really seem to remember it was you. It definitely wasnt Ny Nordland. But as I cannot even find the thread anymore, I may just have been drunk or made up that entire thread in my mind.

Which would be very disturbing.

No, I recall that thread too. But it wasn't me; I'm fairly pro-American.

Although if it was me, I'd be very surprised, and at the same time, not.

No, I recall that thread too. But it wasn't me; I'm fairly pro-American.

Although if it was me, I'd be very surprised, and at the same time, not.

So, either we were both delusional. Or the thread really exists and I simply can't find it anymore. Either way, a very strange situation, indeed...

No, I recall that thread too. But it wasn't me; I'm fairly pro-American.

Although if it was me, I'd be very surprised, and at the same time, not.
Dude, why are you ignoring my post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11389910&postcount=49)to you???

Dude, why are you ignoring my post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11389910&postcount=49)to you???

Maybe because your post to him was all about you...

Maybe there was nothing in it worth responding to...

Maybe he takes a while to formulate a response...

Don't stress, it's only a post!

Maybe because your post to him was all about you...

Maybe there was nothing in it worth responding to...

Maybe he takes a while to formulate a response...

Don't stress, it's only a post!

No I told him that there as advice to him in the second to last paragraph..sort of to his whole "German identity" thing.

I get more annoyed at the type of people who claim they are German, usually because of ancestry. Being German is not a matter of blood, it's a mindset, a collection of experiences...and a passport.
So evolution doesn't mean anything? This absurd obsession that your kind have with ranting on about how 'everyone's the same' annoys me.
Who you are is defined by your genetics, as well as your surroundings. Different environments, over time, produce different selection pressures, which is what makes race more than just skin deep.
It's one of the more idiotic fashions going around nowadays that evolution between races stops at skin colour.

Both sides of my family have a lot of German in them, but I've never been harrassed about it. But then about 25% of the population of my area is of German descent. Also, I've never had anyone ask me what my ethnicity was.

While my family did originate in Germany, I certainly don't claim to be German. My original ancestor in North America was one of the Hessian troops that was captured by Washington at Trenton. He ended up settling in Ohio after the war, and the family stayed there until the 1880's when a number of them moved up to Michigan to work in the lumber industry. I think we've been here long enough to be "American" instead of "German".

So evolution doesn't mean anything? This absurd obsession that your kind have with ranting on about how 'everyone's the same' annoys me.
Who you are is defined by your genetics, as well as your surroundings. Different environments, over time, produce different selection pressures, which is what makes race more than just skin deep.
It's one of the more idiotic fashions going around nowadays that evolution between races stops at skin colour.

German evolution? *roflmao

Honey, there's no such thing as a "German race". I'm German, born and bred, I spent the longest time of my life in that country, I'm a native speaker and my passport states I'm German, too.
When it comes to ancestry, or "evolution" as you seem to prefer to call it, my father's Austrian, my family name is Swedish (a lost soldier during the 30 years' war, as we found out), half of my grandmother's family is from Hungary, some of them of Jewish ansecstry, and part of my family is now American.
"Racislly" speaking, I'm Celtic, Slavic, Roman, and most likely Viking.

And still, I'm plain and simply German, same as all the other Germans who share my upbringing, culture, language and nationality.

being from Wisconsin I'm mostly german but being an American I can still villify those evil krauts ;)

interesting thing. There is a town called New Berlin that changed its pronunciation from Ber-lin to Berlun when US entered the war. Saurkraut became liberty cabbage (freedom fries anyone?):p and there was something else. Another name change in WI if I remember correctly. Can't remember what it is though

O, another interesting thing. I know the swastika isn't only german but it is engraved on a few of the older buildings on campus (in the brickwork) and its really interesting and kinda cool!
Well, the swastika was some Chinese symbol long before it got used by Nazis. It's a pity you can't doodle it on your paper or anything nowadays, because geometrically, it's pretty interesting.

but if your grandparents were Nazi's then you say that they were just your grandparents and they are not you.

so which one is it? do we help people out because they have been oppressed for hundreds and thousands of years or do we say these are new times and what your ancestors did doesnt matter?

Does anyone here believe "the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the children even unto the seventh generation"?

I do believe that there are some people who do use "our people were slaves" as an excuse -- just as there are some who claim workman's comp when they aren't really hurt. But: for those who have been denied basic skills and education by a dysfunctional family, neighborhood, and system, doesn't it make sense to get the ones who want it on their feet so they can better themselves?

German evolution? *roflmao

Honey, there's no such thing as a "German race". I'm German, born and bred, I spent the longest time of my life in that country, I'm a native speaker and my passport states I'm German, too.
When it comes to ancestry, or "evolution" as you seem to prefer to call it, my father's Austrian, my family name is Swedish (a lost soldier during the 30 years' war, as we found out), half of my grandmother's family is from Hungary, some of them of Jewish ansecstry, and part of my family is now American.
"Racislly" speaking, I'm Celtic, Slavic, Roman, and most likely Viking.

And still, I'm plain and simply German, same as all the other Germans who share my upbringing, culture, language and nationality.
Nope. Your claim is unfounded crap that is scientifically false. 've had this argument many times before, and with far smarter lefties than you, so I know what I'm on about.
Go ahead. Prove me wrong. Prove that the thousands of years of separation between populations of humans resulted in nothing but different levels of melanin in the skin.

Nope. Your claim is unfounded crap that is scientifically false. 've had this argument many times before, and with far smarter lefties than you, so I know what I'm on about.
Go ahead. Prove me wrong. Prove that the thousands of years of separation between populations of humans resulted in nothing but different levels of melanin in the skin.

Prove to me it did. It's your claim, after all. Show me how a German can be gentetically identified.

I'd say the only reason for going into WWII was to give America an excuse to increase it's presence in the world.

I grin stupidly.

Except one old man on a bus once. I dared say something German to a friend of mine who did German at school.

So the old guy went off at me, and we had a debate for 15 minutes until the bus stopped. What a dick that guy was...

I get more annoyed at the type of people who claim they are German, usually because of ancestry. Being German is not a matter of blood, it's a mindset, a collection of experiences...and a passport.

Oh! I had a great great great great grandpa who was German! And a great great great grandmother who was 'American Indian'! (Take that Sinuhue! Ha!)

Prove to me it did. It's your claim, after all. Show me how a German can be gentetically identified.
A couple of examples that I just found so you can begin to understand this:
http://xo.typepad.com/blog/2003/10/genetics_make_w_1.html
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/content_objectid=13502852_method=full_siteid=50082_headline=-Genetics-make-Welsh-distinct-name_page.html
http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Jewish_Genes.asp
http://www.clanmacleodusa.org/DNA%20Study%20Genetics%20Of%20Clan%20Macleod.htm

Now, as for Germans:
http://www.businessweek.com/1996/26/b348132.htm
Then, you have to wonder how Germany took on almost the whole world TWICE and nearly won both times, was one of only two countries to defeat the Romans - they then went on to sack Rome, who made a war-torn desolate country into the 2nd wealthiest country in the world in a few short years (after WW2), etc etc.
The thing is, you don't get populations doing well at something sometimes, then badly at others; they have inherited abilities that decide what they are capable of.
For example, compare German military history to Italian military history - a country whose military history is dotted with stories of cowardice and dissent throughout history. You can also compare the white and oriental-run world with the black-run world. Race is fact.

A couple of examples that I just found so you can begin to understand this:
http://xo.typepad.com/blog/2003/10/genetics_make_w_1.html
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/content_objectid=13502852_method=full_siteid=50082_headline=-Genetics-make-Welsh-distinct-name_page.html
http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Jewish_Genes.asp
http://www.clanmacleodusa.org/DNA%20Study%20Genetics%20Of%20Clan%20Macleod.htm

Now, as for Germans:
http://www.businessweek.com/1996/26/b348132.htm
Then, you have to wonder how Germany took on almost the whole world TWICE and nearly won both times, was one of only two countries to defeat the Romans - they then went on to sack Rome, who made a war-torn desolate country into the 2nd wealthiest country in the world in a few short years (after WW2), etc etc.
The thing is, you don't get populations doing well at something sometimes, then badly at others; they have inherited abilities that decide what they are capable of.
For example, compare German military history to Italian military history - a country whose military history is dotted with stories of cowardice and dissent throughout history. You can also compare the white and oriental-run world with the black-run world. Race is fact.

You're quoting an article about a book that was written in 1939, at a time when theories about races were rampant around the world and no research into genetic background could be made yet, 3 articles about isolated small communities and one page that won't load? And you expect me to read that as proof that Germans are distincly genetically different from Italians?

Have you ever heard about a thing called culture? Germans have developed a culture that lays a different emphasis on certain aspects of life than the French culture would. Or the English culture. Or, for that matter, the Italian culture. If what you claimed about military successes were indeed genetically, one would have to wonder how the Italians managed to lose said gene withing a couple of years during the decline of the Roman Empire, to never find it again? It was a culture that ended, not a gene.

Then, you have to wonder how Germany took on almost the whole world TWICE and nearly won both times, was one of only two countries to defeat the Romans - they then went on to sack Rome, who made a war-torn desolate country into the 2nd wealthiest country in the world in a few short years (after WW2), etc etc.
The thing is, you don't get populations doing well at something sometimes, then badly at others; they have inherited abilities that decide what they are capable of.
For example, compare German military history to Italian military history - a country whose military history is dotted with stories of cowardice and dissent throughout history. You can also compare the white and oriental-run world with the black-run world. Race is fact.

All I can read is "Im a nazi, ignore meh!"

A couple of examples that I just found so you can begin to understand this:
http://xo.typepad.com/blog/2003/10/genetics_make_w_1.html
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/content_objectid=13502852_method=full_siteid=50082_headline=-Genetics-make-Welsh-distinct-name_page.html
http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Jewish_Genes.asp
http://www.clanmacleodusa.org/DNA%20Study%20Genetics%20Of%20Clan%20Macleod.htm

Now, as for Germans:
http://www.businessweek.com/1996/26/b348132.htm
Then, you have to wonder how Germany took on almost the whole world TWICE and nearly won both times, was one of only two countries to defeat the Romans - they then went on to sack Rome, who made a war-torn desolate country into the 2nd wealthiest country in the world in a few short years (after WW2), etc etc.
The thing is, you don't get populations doing well at something sometimes, then badly at others; they have inherited abilities that decide what they are capable of.
For example, compare German military history to Italian military history - a country whose military history is dotted with stories of cowardice and dissent throughout history. You can also compare the white and oriental-run world with the black-run world. Race is fact.

Aw, damn. :(
So having a grandmother who was half Italian makes me an eighth coward? I better not even mention her French mother then! :eek: :rolleyes:

Wow, this forum is full of hippies!

You're quoting an article about a book that was written in 1939, at a time when theories about races were rampant around the world and no research into genetic background could be made yet
So what if the structure of DNA hadn't yet been discovered (which is what you mean). You don't need a knowledge of the chemical structure of genes to work out that some characteristics are inherited in them.
3 articles about isolated small communities and one page that won't load?
Welsh and Jews are isolated communities? What are you on? (Probably everything... hippy). I posted 4 links (all of them work) that show that genes vary between populations (races), which you didn't refute.
And you expect me to read that as proof that Germans are distincly genetically different from Italians?
Why? Because it hasn't been stamped by a scientist? I'll eat my words when you're able to properly retort to my claims, rather than just whinging.
Have you ever heard about a thing called culture? Germans have developed a culture that lays a different emphasis on certain aspects of life than the French culture would. Or the English culture. Or, for that matter, the Italian culture.
I wondered when you'd mention culture. Culture means nothing. Humans (particuarly in the same economic groups) are brought up in the same way. People in Germany, France, Italy, the UK, etc are all brought up exposed to the same culture, music, etc, yet their people are different. How? Is it all the paste and olive oil that the Italians make that makes them such shit soldiers? Also, doesn't culture change over time? Isn't the culture of the German barbarians different from that in Hitler's or the Kaiser's Germany? Isn't it different nowadays? Yet, they still run the 2nd most powerful country in the world, and still fight like no one else on the planet.
You're talking bollocks, I'm afraid.
I'll put it into an analogy to help you understand: Your brain develops just like any other organ - it's contents are originally determined by what your parents' DNA says. It can, however, be altered slightly throughout time, yet core thought processes (whether you're a logical thinker etc), and talents will remain the same. Now, in a country like Germany, where life was physically tough for its people (cold winters with lack of food, etc) and where war was common (the Barbarian tribe inter-wars etc) the people who were smarter and more resourceful, and who were better soldiers, would survive the harsh conditions, and the wars, to breed and pass on their new genes. Understand?
The brain is like any other organ because its actions are part-genetic/part-environment-determined... like cancer (if your mum had breast cancer, and you also smoke, your risk goes up).
If what you claimed about military successes were indeed genetically, one would have to wonder how the Italians managed to lose said gene withing a couple of years during the decline of the Roman Empire, to never find it again? It was a culture that ended, not a gene.
Ah, but the Roman Empire wasn't won by Italian men. I knew you'd bring this up.

In your next reply, instead of just whining like a girl, look up some scientific evidence that disregards race. I'll take your opinion seriously then.

So evolution doesn't mean anything? This absurd obsession that your kind have with ranting on about how 'everyone's the same' annoys me.
Who you are is defined by your genetics, as well as your surroundings. Different environments, over time, produce different selection pressures, which is what makes race more than just skin deep.
It's one of the more idiotic fashions going around nowadays that evolution between races stops at skin colour.

You forget one of their most ironic thing. The people who says "everyone's same" usually hates "generalizations". :D

You forget one of their most ironic thing. The people who says "everyone's same" usually hates "generalizations". :D

Not me. I generalize all the time. :)

and still fight like no one else on the planet.


Awesome :D.

I know, I know, I really shouldn't bother with even reading your posts, let alone replying to them (I can only wish I had Cabra's patience), but this actually made me laugh out lout.

We "still fight like no one else on the planet"? Now, how exactly did you come to that conclusion?

I'm loving this. :p

*giggles*

Awesome :D.

I know, I know, I really shouldn't bother with even reading your posts, let alone replying to them (I can only wish I had Cabra's patience), but this actually made me laugh out lout.

We "still fight like no one else on the planet"? Now, how exactly did you come to that conclusion?

I'm loving this. :p

*giggles*

Popcorn? It's butterrryyyyyy....

Popcorn? It's butterrryyyyyy....
Tempting, but it's already like watching a train wreck, so I think I'll pass. :p

Awesome :D.

I know, I know, I really shouldn't bother with even reading your posts, let alone replying to them (I can only wish I had Cabra's patience), but this actually made me laugh out lout.


Dogmatic thinking? I thought you were more open minded than that...


We "still fight like no one else on the planet"? Now, how exactly did you come to that conclusion?

I'm loving this. :p

*giggles*

You are easily amused...Lucky you...

I am of German descent (I tracked to when my ancestors came to America and from where they left), and I take great pride in being German, just as any Italian descent would. Only a lot more (:D ). I always get real annoyed/offended when someone makes a correlation between Jews/Germans/Naziism in any manner.

This is because it seems to me that many people believe German = Nazi. That is a horrible insult to any German. This assumes that Germans were mindless drones of Naziism and that all Germans hate(d) Jews. That's simply not true. The average soldier or citizen was no big Nazi supporter. If you denied the party, you were either killed or put in the concentration camps. What kills me worse is when people say 'Oh, then they should have resisted the Nazis.' Resist? Would you like men storming your house over it? Would you give up your life over something easily faked? No.

Oh, and before I forget, when people fling shit at me, I simply respond with 5 words: Native Americans, Japanese, Germans, Irish.

Please tell me someone understands the five words.

Now, as for Germans:
http://www.businessweek.com/1996/26/b348132.htm
Then, you have to wonder how Germany took on almost the whole world TWICE and nearly won both times, was one of only two countries to defeat the Romans - they then went on to sack Rome, who made a war-torn desolate country into the 2nd wealthiest country in the world in a few short years (after WW2), etc etc.
The thing is, you don't get populations doing well at something sometimes, then badly at others; they have inherited abilities that decide what they are capable of.
For example, compare German military history to Italian military history - a country whose military history is dotted with stories of cowardice and dissent throughout history. You can also compare the white and oriental-run world with the black-run world. Race is fact.Err...your own link contradicts you.

Explanations of the same type as cultivated by the Nazis--that something in the `nature' of the Germans, a racial or biological inheritance, was responsible for the course of events--can be discounted as fantasy-constructs.

Err...your own link contradicts you.
Ba--ZING! :p

As much as I would like to believe it was genes that gave Germany kickass generals throughout history, it cant be proven in any way without sounding. . .

Nazi--ish. or Eugenic.

I love my German descent. However, people can't call me a Nazi because my gramps ought against them In WWII. Cool story to. He was a tail gunner in a B-17 Flying Fortress, was shot down in France, was captured by Germans, put in a P.O.W. camp, saw people die, and escaped with a Russian. But I am insulted when people say things like that.

Interesting, I actually have a German uncle (or some sort of relation) that is a Holocaust denier. I was too young too talk about it properly the times I saw him, but it is interesting.
But as for normal Germans, IMO they should show no shred of apology or remorse simply because it was not their generation. They should not even try to justify themselves because they have nothing to justify; they have done nothing.

In your next reply, instead of just whining like a girl, look up some scientific evidence that disregards race. I'll take your opinion seriously then.

Did anyone else find this part to be exceptionally funny?

So evolution doesn't mean anything? This absurd obsession that your kind have with ranting on about how 'everyone's the same' annoys me.
Hehe. You really do fit right in.

Just like with everybody else, my genetics are from all over: What is today the Czech Republic, what is today a part of Russia, as well as Italy. All mixed together with some of the German natives. I'd like you to find me the German who can trace his history back to Arminius, and always have "pure blood".

Who you are is defined by your genetics, as well as your surroundings. Different environments, over time, produce different selection pressures, which is what makes race more than just skin deep.
There is no German race. Some people like to go on about a Germanic ethnicity, but that includes all sorts of people who aren't Germans and never have been, and which therefore aren't subject to any sort of discrimination based on where they're from.
If there is a German race that is different to a French race or an Italian race...is the Hamburgian race different from the Bavarian race?
Why not?

Kann mir bitte jemand verraten, wer die ganzen Idioten heute wieder rausgelassen hat? Ich glaub das einfach nicht!!!

We "still fight like no one else on the planet"? Now, how exactly did you come to that conclusion?
Recently, I'll have you know, Hippymeister. My dad's best friend is a Sergeant Major in the British Army. He trains and deploys alongside Germans all the time. He says that the effienciency that they can learn tactics, use their heads, and their general field discipline, is completely unmatched.
Did anyone else find this part to be exceptionally funny?
... not really.... hippies are easily-amused.
Hehe. You really do fit right in.
What the hell do you keep saying that for?
Just like with everybody else, my genetics are from all over: What is today the Czech Republic, what is today a part of Russia, as well as Italy. All mixed together with some of the German natives. I'd like you to find me the German who can trace his history back to Arminius, and always have "pure blood".
Czechs, for one, are Germanic people.
Anyway, we've had the same anti-genetics crap over here in the UK that we're all 'mongrels', but when the DNA from a selection of white Brits was analysed last year, it was found to be identical to the DNA taken from ancient fossils taken from human bones from the Roman era. This is just another pile of crap that the Left-wing has jumped on.
There is no German race. Some people like to go on about a Germanic ethnicity, but that includes all sorts of people who aren't Germans and never have been, and which therefore aren't subject to any sort of discrimination based on where they're from.
If there is a German race that is different to a French race or an Italian race...is the Hamburgian race different from the Bavarian race?
Why not?
Bavarians have more Italian blood in them than other Germans, so they are different. If indeed there is no German race, show me your proof, or is this just another Leftist opinion of yours that you haven't got any thought behind?
It's easy to say 'there is no German race' (as you bluntly did) but can you give the slightest shred of proof that a German is genetically the exact same as any other human being? This is a genuine request.

... not really.... hippies are easily-amused.

Oh noes! I was called a hippy!

Anyway, I thought it was funny that you told Cabra to stop whining like a girl because she is in fact female.

Although I will say that Germans are indeed fine soldiers. When I was training in Grafenwoehr (wherever the crazy umlauts and things go in that name) about four years ago I did get to interact a bit with German troops and they certainly seemed to know their business. I still wish I'd been able to try out for the Schutzenschnur.

What's really funny is your "You guys are all hippies because you disagree with me!" line you keep spouting. Do you think anyone really feels stung by your feeble attempts at ad hominem?

What's really funny is your "You guys are all hippies because you disagree with me!" line you keep spouting. Do you think anyone really feels stung by your feeble attempts at ad hominem?
Since when was 'hippy' an insult? It's what you are. And I'm not typing 'wallonochia' every time I reply to you.
I was told about how you lot use that 'ad hominem' crud... sad attempt to get at me because you're too thick to reply to retort to my race discussion.

Since when was 'hippy' an insult? It's what you are. And I'm not typing 'wallonochia' every time I reply to you.
I was told about how you lot use that 'ad hominem' crud... sad attempt to get at me because you're too thick to reply to retort to my race discussion.

I'm not particularly concerned with your race discussion. I'm merely commenting on how silly you're being by throwing the word "hippy" at everyone who disagrees with you. If you didn't do things like that people might possibly take you more seriously. As it is, your constant use of ad hominem only hurts your argument and many people will discount what you say without reading what you're actually saying. If you're going to take a contraversial position it often helps to conduct yourself in such a way that people can't attack your use of ad hominem and can only respond to your arguments.

As it is, your constant use of ad hominem only hurts your argument and many people will discount what you say without reading what you're actually saying. If you're going to take a contraversial position it often helps to conduct yourself in such a way that people can't attack your use of ad hominem and can only respond to your arguments.
What. A. Loser..... 'narf, your use of ad hominen renders your argument null, narf'. Get a life.

You do care what I say on my race discussion - this is why you're writing this piss. I don't care if you accuse me of 'ad hominen' (this is so sad... 'ad hominen'... I can't believe I'm discussing this) or any other cack, because I know that it's because you can't find anything to contradict my argument...... no one has yet....
Saying 'ad hominen!' doesn't magically mean you've won the argument, you cuntflap hippy fuck scatface...... uh-oh, I insulted you.... 'Ad Hominen!!!!'

What. A. Loser..... 'narf, your use of ad hominen renders your argument null, narf'. Get a life.

You do care what I say on my race discussion - this is why you're writing this piss. I don't care if you accuse me of 'ad hominen' (this is so sad... 'ad hominen'... I can't believe I'm discussing this) or any other cack, because I know that it's because you can't find anything to contradict my argument...... no one has yet....
Saying 'ad hominen!' doesn't magically mean you've won the argument, you cuntflap hippy fuck scatface...... uh-oh, I insulted you.... 'Ad Hominen!!!!'

Hey man, I was just trying to help you out. On a topic like this people will gladly jump on any mistake you make, and you'll have a hard time getting them to address what you're actually saying. I don't personally think that using an ad hominem renders your argument null, but you'll be amazed how many people will use it as an excuse not to actually address your points. As I said, when taking a contraversial stance you really need to stick to your argument and not allow them any way to get away from that. Good luck convincing people to accept your point of view with the way you're presenting your case.

I love my German descent. However, people can't call me a Nazi because my gramps ought against them In WWII. Cool story to. He was a tail gunner in a B-17 Flying Fortress, was shot down in France, was captured by Germans, put in a P.O.W. camp, saw people die, and escaped with a Russian. But I am insulted when people say things like that.

Hmm, my German grandfather fought also. He was actually more against the Japanese then the Nazis, not necessarily idealogically, but he fought on the Japanese front. He has an old Japanese sword and I asked him how he got it in the war and he falls asleep.

My swiss grandpa, on the other hand, fought under Gen. Patton's command as a medic. So, I'm pretty sure he saw a lot of people die. He was a seargent, but he got demoted for playing cards with underanked officers, pretty stupid.

Saying 'ad hominen!' doesn't magically mean you've won the argument, you cuntflap hippy fuck scatface...... uh-oh, I insulted you.... 'Ad Hominen!!!!'
No. Flaming. Official Warning.

Learn our rules before you start waving your "it's the Internet, so I can say whatever I want" banner. We don't put up with that crap.

Something I thought up: if you ever get shit flung at you because of being German and the whole WWII affair, how do you handle it?

Once or twice, but only jokingly.

Well, I live in a heavily German area (German was actually more common than English until everyone stopped speaking it around WW2), so it usually doesn't come up, but if does, I throw the Dresden bombings at them.

Whatever. :rolleyes:
It is true!
Still can't vote even!

My Great Grandmother was German.:(

Wow, this forum is full of hippies! Wow, you've really no idea what a hippie is, do you?


So what if the structure of DNA hadn't yet been discovered (which is what you mean). You don't need a knowledge of the chemical structure of genes to work out that some characteristics are inherited in them.

That would be true if it could be exclusively proven that the traits in question are there when the individual was born and not learned at some stage in life. Anything regarding behaviour is virtually impossible to clearly link to genetic material, with the exception of a few hereditary forms of organically caused mental illnesses (schizophrenia falls into that category in some instances)


Welsh and Jews are isolated communities? What are you on? (Probably everything... hippy). I posted 4 links (all of them work) that show that genes vary between populations (races), which you didn't refute.

Welsh are geographically isolated and have been for centuries, if not millenia. The same would be true for most people on the British Isles, including Ireland. There was the odd group of people coming to those islands every now and again, but they were completely untouched by the mass movement of peoples and tribes that Central Europe saw time and again.
Jews didn't intermarry on a regular basis with gentiles, and in most parts of the world they still don't. They are not geographically isolated, but isolated themselves from the gene pool.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/vary/vary_2.htm
http://www.answers.com/topic/race-1#after_ad1
www.apa.org/journals/releases/amp6019.pdf

Some links to refute your claim that anything as specific as a "German race" exists.

To give you a general idea:

These scientists attached hi-
erarchical designations to these categorizations, claiming
that differences in skin color, physiognomy, and geography
were associated with scientifically measurable differences
in character, aptitude, and temperament (Smedley, 1998).
Studies supporting these claims have since been refuted as
severely flawed (Gould, 1981). Yet, in descriptions of
human genetic variation, categorization of humans by “ra-
cial” and “ethnic” groups continues. Researchers must re-
main mindful of this historical legacy of the science of
heredity as the genomic era unfolds.
Current genetic data also refute the notion that races
are genetically distinct human populations. There are no
gene variants that are present in all individuals of one
population group and in no individuals of another. No
sharp genetic boundaries can be drawn between human
population groups.


Why? Because it hasn't been stamped by a scientist? I'll eat my words when you're able to properly retort to my claims, rather than just whinging.

If your claim that your view is scientific, you had better be able to back it up with science.


I wondered when you'd mention culture. Culture means nothing. Humans (particuarly in the same economic groups) are brought up in the same way. People in Germany, France, Italy, the UK, etc are all brought up exposed to the same culture, music, etc, yet their people are different. How? Is it all the paste and olive oil that the Italians make that makes them such shit soldiers? Also, doesn't culture change over time? Isn't the culture of the German barbarians different from that in Hitler's or the Kaiser's Germany? Isn't it different nowadays? Yet, they still run the 2nd most powerful country in the world, and still fight like no one else on the planet.
You're talking bollocks, I'm afraid.

You really assume that you had the exact same childhood as a German kid, or a French kid? I assume you never even left your home town if you honestly are going to make a claim like that.
Culture matters, and it matters immensely. And it varies, a lot more than any form of traceable genetic pattern. Culture is actually different from area to area, even from town to town. And yes, culture does change over time. Which is one reason why you will not see any military parades to celebrate the national holiday in Germany, but you will see tanks in the streets for the same occasion in France.
But the emphasis and value placed on certain character traits can remain the same, even in a changing culture.
There's a lot more to culture than simply diet :rolleyes:


I'll put it into an analogy to help you understand: Your brain develops just like any other organ - it's contents are originally determined by what your parents' DNA says. It can, however, be altered slightly throughout time, yet core thought processes (whether you're a logical thinker etc), and talents will remain the same. Now, in a country like Germany, where life was physically tough for its people (cold winters with lack of food, etc) and where war was common (the Barbarian tribe inter-wars etc) the people who were smarter and more resourceful, and who were better soldiers, would survive the harsh conditions, and the wars, to breed and pass on their new genes. Understand?
The brain is like any other organ because its actions are part-genetic/part-environment-determined... like cancer (if your mum had breast cancer, and you also smoke, your risk goes up).

By that logic, you'd find the best fighters not in Germany but in places like Skandinavia and Russia.
I do agree that the brain functions are partly based on genetics (the organic part) and part on environmental influences. I just don't agree with the ratio you seem to apply.
Character traits and intelligence are to some degree hereditary, nobody can yet say for sure how much is inherited and how much is in fact learned.

http://wilderdom.com/personality/L4-1IntelligenceNatureVsNurture.html


Ah, but the Roman Empire wasn't won by Italian men. I knew you'd bring this up.

Oh, yes. I forgot. Julius Caesar was German, too, right? :rolleyes:


In your next reply, instead of just whining like a girl, look up some scientific evidence that disregards race. I'll take your opinion seriously then.

I'll try and whine like a man, then, shall I? :rolleyes:

Nope. Your claim is unfounded crap that is scientifically false. 've had this argument many times before, and with far smarter lefties than you, so I know what I'm on about.
Go ahead. Prove me wrong. Prove that the thousands of years of separation between populations of humans resulted in nothing but different levels of melanin in the skin.The geographic area of what is now Germany and the population found therein can hardly be referred to as "isolated" in the biological sense. There's always been an influx of non-native genetic material.

The geographic area of what is now Germany and the population found therein can hardly be referred to as "isolated" in the biological sense. There's always been an influx of non-native genetic material.

As I said before, I've git Hungarian, Austrian, possibly Jewish and Skandinavian ancestry. I'm pretty sure yours will be a simillar mix. Doesn't change the fact that we're both Germans. :)

Dogmatic thinking? I thought you were more open minded than that...



You are easily amused...Lucky you...

She's got me for that :p

And no, I giggled as well when I read that. That guy has been making false assumptions before, but this one was the funniest one so far.

As I said before, I've git Hungarian, Austrian, possibly Jewish and Skandinavian ancestry. I'm pretty sure yours will be a simillar mix. Doesn't change the fact that we're both Germans. :)No clue. I've never read into my German or American family trees. :p

Kann mir bitte jemand verraten, wer die ganzen Idioten heute wieder rausgelassen hat? Ich glaub das einfach nicht!!!

Och, lass sie doch. Wenn's ihr truebes Leben aufheitert....
Ich koennt mich nur totlachen dass es immer die anderen sind die meinen zu wissen, wer Deutscher ist und was Deutschland ist. Und was es fuer Probleme hat. :D

Weren't you in another thread just the other day saying how you were an Italian American? Or perhaps you were just saying that you lived in an Italian immigrant neighborhood?

Either way, IF you are both Italian AND German, and if YOU don't get teased for WWII events then I doubt anyone gets teased for Axis WWII heritage. It could only get worse if you have a Japanese Uncle somewhere along the family lines as well huh? :p


As to the topic, I'm married to a German Wisconsin girl, in the New Berlin/Ripon/Green-lake area, and there are TONS of them still there. Just last weekend we took our infant baby girl there to get her baptized by her grandparent's house and they invited all of their relatives (Germans on both sides of the Mom's side) and we practically filled the chapel with ancient German Wisconsinite farmers, but I don't think the English/French descended minister was nervous at all ;) Maybe they don't get teased just because there are so many of them.

you still live in WI? I grew up in the Fox Valley and now go to school @ UW - Milwaukee

She's got me for that :p
And I have to say, I got by far the better end of that deal - I can lean back and point & laugh while you're doing all the work. :p :fluffle:

Although you gotta love how not considering the guy's Rassenlehre drivel replyworthy now constitutes "dogmatic thinking". Awesome, Ny Norland. :p

because I know that it's because you can't find anything to contradict my argument...... no one has yet....Except of course that I already did in this thread, in post #79, which you ignored.

Wow, you've really no idea what a hippie is, do you?


That would be true if it could be exclusively proven that the traits in question are there when the individual was born and not learned at some stage in life. Anything regarding behaviour is virtually impossible to clearly link to genetic material, with the exception of a few hereditary forms of organically caused mental illnesses (schizophrenia falls into that category in some instances)


You are very wrong. Behaviour is linked with genes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/15/health/15gene.html?ei=5088&en=03536a9763b397ea&ex=1308024000&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=all



Welsh are geographically isolated and have been for centuries, if not millenia. The same would be true for most people on the British Isles, including Ireland. There was the odd group of people coming to those islands every now and again, but they were completely untouched by the mass movement of peoples and tribes that Central Europe saw time and again.
Jews didn't intermarry on a regular basis with gentiles, and in most parts of the world they still don't. They are not geographically isolated, but isolated themselves from the gene pool.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/vary/vary_2.htm
http://www.answers.com/topic/race-1#after_ad1
www.apa.org/journals/releases/amp6019.pdf

Some links to refute your claim that anything as specific as a "German race" exists.

To give you a general idea:

These scientists attached hi-
erarchical designations to these categorizations, claiming
that differences in skin color, physiognomy, and geography
were associated with scientifically measurable differences
in character, aptitude, and temperament (Smedley, 1998).
Studies supporting these claims have since been refuted as
severely flawed (Gould, 1981). Yet, in descriptions of
human genetic variation, categorization of humans by “ra-
cial” and “ethnic” groups continues. Researchers must re-
main mindful of this historical legacy of the science of
heredity as the genomic era unfolds.
Current genetic data also refute the notion that races
are genetically distinct human populations. There are no
gene variants that are present in all individuals of one
population group and in no individuals of another. No
sharp genetic boundaries can be drawn between human
population groups.




It says no sharp boundaries. Even the quote you gave doesnt rule out SOME boundaries.



If your claim that your view is scientific, you had better be able to back it up with science.



The most recent survey, taken in 1985 (Lieberman et al. 1992), asked 1,200 scientists how many disagree with the following proposition: "There are biological races in the species Homo sapiens." The responses were:

* biologists 16%
* developmental psychologists 36%
* physical anthropologists 41%
* cultural anthropologists 53%


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race#Modern_racial_debates

As you can see an overwhelming majority of biologists either has no opinion or they think biological races exist. I know it's an old survey but there are no newer ones. For political correctness reasons perheps? And yes, political correctness get in the way of science:


Even study leader Keith Cheng said he was at first uncomfortable talking about the new work, fearing that the finding of such a clear genetic difference between people of African and European ancestries might reawaken discredited assertions of other purported inborn differences between races -- the most long-standing and inflammatory of those being intelligence.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/15/AR2005121501728_pf.html

Also, another suggested example of SOME boundaries, if not SHARP.


Black-White-East Asian IQ differences at least 50 percent genetic, scientists conclude in major law journal.


Summary: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-04/cdri-bai042505.php

Full Report:
http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushtonpdfs/PPPL1.pdf



You really assume that you had the exact same childhood as a German kid, or a French kid? I assume you never even left your home town if you honestly are going to make a claim like that.
Culture matters, and it matters immensely. And it varies, a lot more than any form of traceable genetic pattern. Culture is actually different from area to area, even from town to town. And yes, culture does change over time. Which is one reason why you will not see any military parades to celebrate the national holiday in Germany, but you will see tanks in the streets for the same occasion in France.
But the emphasis and value placed on certain character traits can remain the same, even in a changing culture.
There's a lot more to culture than simply diet :rolleyes:


Actually there are even studies which suggests that genes affect cultures. It'd make sense. If genes affect behaviour, it means they indirectly affect culture because cultures are result of human behavior over time.


The hypothesis is examined that genes bias the development of complex social behavior in one direction over alternatives. Studies of altruism and political attitudes in twins estimate that approximately 50% of the variance is associated with direct genetic inheritance, virtually 0% with the twin's common family environment, and the remainder with each twin's specific environment. Studies of human marriages show that spouses choose each other on the basis of similarity, assorting on the most genetically influenced of a set of homogeneous attributes. These data imply a genetic canalization of social influences such that, within the constraints allowed by the total spectrum of cultural alternatives, people create environments maximally compatible with their genotypes.


http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=386712



By that logic, you'd find the best fighters not in Germany but in places like Skandinavia and Russia.
I do agree that the brain functions are partly based on genetics (the organic part) and part on environmental influences. I just don't agree with the ratio you seem to apply.
Character traits and intelligence are to some degree hereditary, nobody can yet say for sure how much is inherited and how much is in fact learned.

http://wilderdom.com/personality/L4-1IntelligenceNatureVsNurture.html

<snip>


If you knew character traits are to some degree hereditary, why did you say: "Anything regarding behaviour is virtually impossible to clearly link to genetic material"?

You are very wrong. Behaviour is linked with genes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/15/health/15gene.html?ei=5088&en=03536a9763b397ea&ex=1308024000&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=all
Maybe you didn't read the article, or maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word "maybe"... It appears in the title: ...Maybe it runs in the Family.

And I have to say, I got by far the better end of that deal - I can lean back and point & laugh while you're doing all the work. :p :fluffle:

Although you gotta love how not considering the guy's Rassenlehre drivel replyworthy now constitutes "dogmatic thinking". Awesome, Ny Norland. :p

It is. You probably label his posts as what? Racist? Then you say you shouldnt probably read it, yet alone reply to it. You are dismissing his views because they belong to some label (hence you shouldnt read them). It is dogmatic thinking. You are also making fun of him. Very mature. Do you really need to be amused that bad?

It is. You probably label his posts as what? Racist? Then you say you shouldnt probably read it, yet alone reply to it. You are dismissing his views because they belong to some label (hence you shouldnt read them). It is dogmatic thinking. You are also making fun of him. Very mature. Do you really need to be amused that bad?Where does it say that mature people can't have fun? :D

Maybe you didn't read the article, or maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word "maybe"... It appears in the title: ...Maybe it runs in the Family.

Have you read just the title of the article? I know what maybe means. For ex: Maybe your reading comprehension skills are at grade 5 level? From the article:


A growing understanding of human genetics is prompting fresh consideration of how much control people have over who they are and how they act. The recent discoveries include genes that seem to influence whether an individual is fat, has a gift for dance or will be addicted to cigarettes. Pronouncements about the power of genes seem to be in the news almost daily, and are changing the way some Americans feel about themselves, their flaws and their talents, as well as the decisions they make.

Where does it say that mature people can't have fun? :D

I'm beginning to think you and whereyouthinkyougoing could make a harmonious couple....

<snip>


Nice bit of work. But all that basically says is, if there are races, they cannot be distinctly identified, not do they have clear boundaries.
I'd agree that if for whatever reason you need to make distinctions, you can of course differanciate between, say, Africans and Europeans. But to uphold that there are seperate, distinct European races in Central Europe, a place that has seen the migration of hundereds of different tribes and groups over the centuries, is a bit naive at best.

And I don't regard intelligence as a character trait.

Have you read just the title of the article? I know what maybe means. For ex: Maybe your reading comprehension skills are at grade 5 level? From the article:
Here, let me bold the important parts for you:
A growing understanding of human genetics is prompting fresh consideration of how much control people have over who they are and how they act. The recent discoveries include genes that seem to influence whether an individual is fat, has a gift for dance or will be addicted to cigarettes. Pronouncements about the power of genes seem to be in the news almost daily, and are changing the way some Americans feel about themselves, their flaws and their talents, as well as the decisions they make.
And here's the part that sums the most important message up:
Then he heard that scientists at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle had linked risk-taking behavior in mice to a gene.The idea that this also applies to humans sounds plausible, but it isn't proven by "linking risk taking behavior in mice to a gene".

I'm beginning to think you and whereyouthinkyougoing could make a harmonious couple....We divorced a long, long time ago. You're eons behind ;)

Here, let me bold the important parts for you:

And here's the part that sums the most important message up:
The idea that this also applies to humans sounds plausible, but it isn't proven by "linking risk taking behavior in mice to a gene".

Oh, were you expecting 100% proof? The existance of "seem" in the text invalidates all the scientific work, marking them inconclusive? Then keep in mind that almost all our major understanding of life, like quantum theory, theory of relativity, theory of gravity are all theories, meaning they arent 100% proven, meaning they only SEEM to work.
Also, another quote:


"The scientific facts have changed," said Steven Pinker, a psychologist at Harvard who documented cultural resistance to the influence of genetics on behavior in his 2002 book "The Blank Slate."

"We now have real evidence that some of the variation in personality is inherited," Dr. Pinker said, "and I think it may be affecting people's everyday choices."


Edit: The most important message isnt about "risk taking gene". The article is about the genetic influence on personality and other characteristics. The title and the introduction are to give the article a more readable context for newspaper (NY Times) readers rather than making the article sound like a medical journal article, with a title, "Affects of Genes, Study #77298".

Oh, were you expecting 100% proof? The existance of "seem" in the text invalidates all the scientific work, marking them inconclusive? Then keep in mind that almost all our major understanding of life, like quantum theory, theory of relativity, theory of gravity are all theories, meaning they arent 100% proven, meaning they only SEEM to work.
Also, another quote:Well, not a hundred percent, but more proof is needed for the following to disappear:
"The scientific facts have changed," said Steven Pinker, a psychologist at Harvard who documented cultural resistance to the influence of genetics on behavior in his 2002 book "The Blank Slate."

"We now have real evidence that some of the variation in personality is inherited," Dr. Pinker said, "and I think it may be affecting people's everyday choices."

Well, not a hundred percent, but more proof is needed for the following to disappear:

"We now have real evidence that some of the variation in personality is inherited" means genes affect personality. And that was my point. What is yours?

"We now have real evidence that some of the variation in personality is inherited" means genes affect personality. And that was my point. What is yours?

Still leaves you to prove that those genes that affect personality are in fact linked to the 0.1 gentic difference between the assumed races.

It is. You probably label his posts as what? Racist?
I don't need to "label" them anything - they are racist, no matter what I think about them.

Then you say you shouldnt probably read it, yet alone reply to it. You are dismissing his views because they belong to some label (hence you shouldnt read them). It is dogmatic thinking. Noticing that he is spewing racist crap and not thinking that entitles him to be taken seriously by me is dogmatic thinking? Mmmmkay.

You are also making fun of him. Very mature. Do you really need to be amused that bad? Honey, it's either making fun of him, losing my temper and getting banned, or slowly going crazy. I'd very much opt for the fun here. Especially since he makes it so deliciously easy. :p

I'm beginning to think you and whereyouthinkyougoing could make a harmonious couple.... Laerod, komm an mein Herz! Eine Verbindung gesegnet von den internationalen Rassisten - na, wenn das nicht hält! :p :fluffle:

We divorced a long, long time ago. You're eons behind ;) Damn, forgot about that, you old cheater :(. Was it official already?

Nice bit of work. But all that basically says is, if there are races, they cannot be distinctly identified, not do they have clear boundaries.
I'd agree that if for whatever reason you need to make distinctions, you can of course differanciate between, say, Africans and Europeans. But to uphold that there are seperate, distinct European races in Central Europe, a place that has seen the migration of hundereds of different tribes and groups over the centuries, is a bit naive at best.

And I don't regard intelligence as a character trait.

Fannytopia was arguing against "leftist" view of "we are all same". And that view has been debunked. Nice to see that you agree with that. There are indeed some or many differences and we've found them although we are only beginning to discover the genetic code.
About central europe, I'm sure there are some distinctions between different people but I dont think they are enough to devide them into races...

"We now have real evidence that some of the variation in personality is inherited" means genes affect personality. And that was my point. What is yours?My point is that "some" is an important part of that statement.
Not that it really matters, as this has nothing to do with "races".

Laerod, komm an mein Herz! Eine Verbindung gesegnet von den internationalen Rassisten - na, wenn das nicht hält! :p :fluffle: Meh, auf deren Segen kann ich getrost verzichten! :p

Damn, forgot about that, you old cheater :(. Was it official already?What? You're the one telling ME that we're divorced and now you have second thoughts? Make up your mind... :p

Fannytopia was arguing against "leftist" view of "we are all same". And that view has been debunked. Nice to see that you agree with that. There are indeed some or many differences and we've found them although we are only beginning to discover the genetic code.
About central europe, I'm sure there are some distinctions between different people but I dont think they are enough to devide them into races...

Acutally, Fannytopia assumed that there were races and that they determined our personalities to some extend. That hasn't been proven at all.
I never assumed that we were all the same, we are all individuals in our genetic makeup after all.
There's no evidence that races are different in any aspect related to intelligence, personality or culture. ;)

Meh, auf deren Segen kann ich getrost verzichten! :p Am I detecting some "dogmatic thinking" there? :eek:

What? You're the one telling ME that we're divorced and now you have second thoughts? Make up your mind... :pWell, you cheated on me first, IIRC, so a divorce way really unavoidable. But just making up my mind would be too easy. :p

I don't need to "label" them anything - they are racist, no matter what I think about them.

Noticing that he is spewing racist crap and not thinking that entitles him to be taken seriously by me is dogmatic thinking? Mmmmkay.

<snip, you 2 were married? :eek: Arent "hippies" supposed to be against that since it's religious and all? :D >



Yes, you dismiss his views because they belong to a certain label (racist), not because they dont make sense. It's like religious people in medieval times dismissing views that Earth isnt flat because they belong to a certain label (blasphemous). Or like some conservative circles in USA dismiss global warming as some hippy crap and hence shouldnt be taken seriously. As you can see, all 3 examples hold different views but their way of thinking is same. Dogmatic.

Yes, you dismiss his views because they belong to a certain label (racist), not because they dont make sense. Actually, it's more like labelling his views because they don't make sense, being wild conspiracy theories about how the "leftists" are attempting to cover up Stalin's crimes to make themselves look better. And then you dismis them.
It's like religious people dismissing views that Earth isnt flat because they belong to a certain label (blasphemous). Or like dismissing their views that the earth is flat. Quite dogmatic too, don't you think?

Well, you cheated on me first, IIRC, so a divorce way really unavoidable. But just making up my mind would be too easy. :pYou're running out of time though...

Acutally, Fannytopia assumed that there were races and that they determined our personalities to some extend. That hasn't been proven at all.
I never assumed that we were all the same, we are all individuals in our genetic makeup after all.
There's no evidence that races are different in any aspect related to intelligence, personality or culture. ;)

There are studies that suggest those (One of them is a 30 year old study). And they havent been debunked. Hence, there's no evidence that races are SAME in any aspect related to intelligence, personality or culture.

Again:

Summary: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-04/cdri-bai042505.php

Full Report:
http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushtonpdfs/PPPL1.pdf

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=386712

Actually, it's more like labelling his views because they don't make sense, being wild conspiracy theories about how the "leftists" are attempting to cover up Stalin's crimes to make themselves look better. And then you dismis them.
IOr like dismissing their views that the earth is flat. Quite dogmatic too, don't you think?

Nah. Scientific evidence as well as our own eyes (via photos and videos from space) proved that beyond doubt. Dismissing someone who says Earth is flat, therefore, isnt dogmatic.

Nah. Scientific evidence as well as our own eyes (via photos and videos from space) proved that beyond doubt. Dismissing someone who says Earth is flat, therefore, isnt dogmatic.Just because you have proof doesn't mean it isn't dogmatic ;)

Actually, it's more like labelling his views because they don't make sense, being wild conspiracy theories about how the "leftists" are attempting to cover up Stalin's crimes to make themselves look better. And then you dismis them.
What he said. Is that really so hard to grasp?

You're running out of time though... Meh, you'll not really be gone anyway. Plus, you'll be back. So, eh. ;)

Fannytopia was arguing against "leftist" view of "we are all same". And that view has been debunked. Nice to see that you agree with that. There are indeed some or many differences and we've found them although we are only beginning to discover the genetic code.
About central europe, I'm sure there are some distinctions between different people but I dont think they are enough to devide them into races...
Generally speaking, anthropologists regard there is more variation inside of a "race" regarding genetic traits, then there is between "races".

Just because you have proof doesn't mean it isn't dogmatic ;)

LOL. You'd better look up what dogma and/or dogmatic means....:rolleyes: What you said is as silly as you bolding the word "some" as if "some alteration" means "no alteration"....

There are studies that suggest those (One of them is a 30 year old study). And they havent been debunked. Hence, there's no evidence that races are SAME in any aspect related to intelligence, personality or culture.

Again:

Summary: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-04/cdri-bai042505.php

Full Report:
http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushtonpdfs/PPPL1.pdf

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=386712

I've posted it before, but here you go again:

Intelligence is only partially based in genetics as far as research shows. Part of the genetically based side might in fact have to do with race, however as it is not yet entirely determined how much of it is acutally based in our genes, it's impossible to say what fraction of that is related to our ancestry.

There are cultural, dietary, educational, social and other organic factors that play into the equation. Studies show for example that intelligence has growing exponentially in just a couple of decades:

http://wilderdom.com/images/intelligenceFlynnEffect.jpg

Source (http://wilderdom.com/personality/L4-1IntelligenceNatureVsNurture.html)

Intelligence varies with:

* Infant malnutrition (-ve)
* Birth weight
* Birth order
* Height
* Number of siblings (-ve)
* Number of years in school
* Social group of parental home
* Father's profession
* Father's economic status
* Degree of parental rigidity (-ve)
* Parental ambition
* Mother's education
* Average TV viewing (-ve)
* Average book-reading
* Self-confidence according to attitude scale measurement
* Age (negative relationship, applies only in adulthood)
* Degree of authority in parental home (-ve)
* Criminality (-ve)
* Alcoholism (-ve)
* Mental disease (-ve)
* Emotional adaptation

from the same source. No mention of race, as you may notice.

LOL. You'd better look up what dogma and/or dogmatic means....:rolleyes: What you said is as silly as you bolding the word "some" as if "some alteration" means "no alteration"....If saying that to yourself helps you live your delusions, be my guest :)

What he said. Is that really so hard to grasp?

You were dismissing his views because they were racist, not because they are non-sense. Dont switch your position just to say "Is that really so hard to grasp?".
Besides Laerod used bunch of straw man. Fannytopia wasnt arguing about leftist stalin conspiracies. It is interesting that you people dumb down the argument yourself and respond to that argument based on your version....

Besides Laerod used bunch of straw man. Fannytopia wasnt arguing about leftist stalin conspiracies. It is interesting that you people dumb down the argument yourself and respond to that argument based on your version....You make it too easy :)
No, my problem is the way that the generally Left-wing media continually smears the Right by constantly parroting on about far-Right ideologies like Nazism, while the image of the Left remains - undeservedly - untainted.You are either lying, or you missed that. You can find it here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11390873&postcount=421).

<snip>


Look at the references of that article. They are all old. Of course that doesnt invalidate the article but I'm just pointing out. One of the references is from a study of Jensen, co-author of this study:

Summary: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-04/cdri-bai042505.php

Full Report:
http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushtonpdfs/PPPL1.pdf


Jensen (1973, pp. 107–119) tested the regression predictions with data from
siblings (900 White sibling pairs and 500 Black sibling pairs). These provide an
even better test than parent–offspring comparisons because siblings share very
similar environments. Black and White children matched for IQ had siblings who
had regressed approximately halfway to their respective population means rather
than to the mean of the combined population. For example, when Black children
and White children were matched with IQs of 120, the siblings of Black children
averaged close to 100, whereas the siblings of White children averaged close to
110. A reverse effect was found with children matched at the lower end of the IQ
scale. When Black children and White children are matched for IQs of 70, the
siblings of the Black children averaged about 78, whereas the siblings of the
White children averaged about 85. The regression line showed no significant
departure from linearity throughout the range of IQ from 50 to 150, as predicted
by genetic theory but not by culture-only theory



Culture-only hypotheses have not explained the mean Black–White group
differences in IQ. (They have especially not explained the findings on East
Asians.) One early view was that the mean Black–White group difference in IQ
was due to the then obvious differences in (segregated) school facilities (Myrdal,
1944). However, despite the U.S. Supreme Court Brown v. Board of Education
(1954) decision striking down segregated schooling, and the consequent nation-
wide program of school busing, the mean Black–White group difference has not
decreased. Moreover, the Coleman Report (Coleman et al., 1966) found that the
racial composition of schools per se was not related to achievement in either
Blacks or Whites. Most of the variation in IQ scores occurred within schools and
less than 20% occurred between schools. Negligible, and in some cases, negative
correlations were found between IQ and variables such as pupil expenditure,
266
RUSHTON AND JENSEN
Page 33
teachers’ salaries, teachers’ qualifications, student/teacher ratios, and the avail-
ability of other school professionals (see also Coleman, 1990–1991).
The most frequently stated culture-only hypothesis is that the mean IQ
differences are due to SES. In fact, controlling for SES only reduces the mean
Black–White group difference in IQ by about a third, around 5 IQ points. The
genetic perspective does not regard this control for SES as being entirely envi-
ronmental. It holds that the parents’ socioeconomic level in part reflects their
genetic differences in intelligence. Moreover, according to the culture-only the-
ory, as Black groups advance up the socioeconomic ladder, their children should
be less exposed to environmental deficits and therefore should do better and, by
extension, close the distance separating the Black mean with the White. In fact,
the magnitude of the mean Black–White group difference in IQ for higher SES
levels, when measured in standard deviations, is larger (Herrnstein & Murray,
1994, pp. 286–289).
Other nongenetic hypotheses are that standard IQ tests are culturally biased
because the test items are not equally familiar and motivating to all groups or that
they only measure familiarity with middle-class language or culture. However,
despite attempts to equate items for familiarity and culture-fairness, no “culture-
fair” test has eliminated the mean group difference. American Blacks actually
have higher average scores on culturally loaded tests than on culturally reduced
tests, which is the opposite to what is found for some other groups such as
Mexican Indians and East Asians. (The mean Black–White group differences are
greatest on the g factor, regardless of the type of test from which g is extracted;
see Section 4.) Moreover, the three-way pattern of mean Black–White–East Asian
group differences occurs worldwide on culture-fair reaction time measures, which
all children can do in less than 1 s (see Section 3).
Subsequent culture-only hypotheses have pointed to specific aspects of de-
privation as possible determinants of IQ. These include the following: (a) lack of
reading material in the home, (b) poor cultural amenities in the home, (c) weak
structural integrity of the home, (d) foreign language in the home, (e) low
preschool attendance, (f) no encyclopedia in the home, (g) low level of parental
education, (h) little time spent on homework, (i) low parental educational desires
for child, (j) low parental interest in school work, (k) negative child self-concept
(self-esteem), and (l) low child interest in school and reading. However, both
within-race kinship studies and across-race adoption studies show that these
environmental variables have increasingly smaller effects on the adoptees’ IQ as
they reach adolescence (see Sections 5 and 7). Moreover, other studies found that
American Indians and East Asians averaged higher in IQ than Blacks, even
though they averaged lower on these proposed causal factors (Coleman et al.,
1966, p. 20). Another example comes from the Inuit, who live above the Arctic
Circle and have higher average IQs than do either American or Jamaican Blacks
(Berry, 1966; MacArthur, 1968) even though their socioeconomic conditions are
extremely poor and unemployment is high (P. E. Vernon, 1965, 1979).


It goes on and on. Much newer than your article...If you have the patience, search "culture" in your web browser and read other failings of culture only theory, which is the theory in your source...

Edit: Actually, it's not even a theory. Just hypothesis. Correction...

You make it too easy :)
You are either lying, or you missed that. You can find it here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11390873&postcount=421).

And how did you reached the conclusion of him suggesting "wild conspiracy theories" by that quote?

Look at the references of that article. They are all old. Of course that doesnt invalidate the article but I'm just pointing out. One of the references is from a study of Jensen, co-author of this study:

Summary: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-04/cdri-bai042505.php

Full Report:
http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushtonpdfs/PPPL1.pdf





It goes on and on. Much newer than your article...If you have the patience, search "culture" in your web browser and read other failings of culture only theory, which is the theory in your source...

Edit: Actually, it's not even a theory. Just hypothesis. Correction...


You quote a 30 year old source, and you claim that my source, with most of its references from 1997 is old???

Generally speaking, anthropologists regard there is more variation inside of a "race" regarding genetic traits, then there is between "races".

Your opinions are outdated...


Distribution of genetic variation within/between populations

Some scientists have argued there exists more variation within racial groups than between, and therefore human races have no taxonomic value. This opinion can be traced back to a 1972 paper by Richard Lewontin. Some researchers report the variation between racial groups (measured by Sewall Wright's population structure statistic FST) accounts for as little as 5-7% of human genetic variation. This argument was widely popularized after Lewontin's original publication.

However, most geneticists now recognize that low FST values do not invalidate the suggestion that there might be different human races because of technical limitations of FST (Edwards, 2003), see Lewontin's Fallacy.

Populations within continents are more closely related to one another than to populations on other continents. Genetic variation between races is highly structured (Risch, 2002). Thus, when one considers many points (i.e., genetic loci) of variation one can distinguish groups and allocate people into groups (Bamshad, 2004).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_views_on_race

You quote a 30 year old source, and you claim that my source, with most of its references from 1997 is old???

The source I quoted was published in 2005. I meant to say it contained 30 years of research to emphasize its comrehensiveness....

You were dismissing his views because they were racist, not because they are non-sense. Dont switch your position just to say "Is that really so hard to grasp?".
Besides Laerod used bunch of straw man. Fannytopia wasnt arguing about leftist stalin conspiracies. It is interesting that you people dumb down the argument yourself and respond to that argument based on your version....
Oh my God, I guess it is just that hard to grasp.

Racism doesn't "make sense". To dismiss someone's posts because they are racist is to dismiss them because they never made sense to begin with. Maybe others find it in them to try to reply and show him the fallacies of his thinking in the hopes of getting through to him - like e.g. Cabra has been doing again and again in this thread - and while I think that's admirable, I certainly don't have any obligation to extend him the same courtesy. Not him or others like him, as for example you.

If you offer up a ludicrous, inhuman and disgusting premise, you bet I won't take the time to "look at your arguments". Just why the hell should I?

People, let´s read what this Thread means ...........

Something I thought up: if you ever get shit flung at you because of being German and the whole WWII affair, how do you handle it?

This had nothing with "races" or "genes". This is how people (GERMAN PEOPLE not "german race") feels about it.

Side Note: Interresting how people of other countries like to say that exist a "german race", and the true germans think diferent. :rolleyes:

People, let´s read what this Thread means ...........



This had nothing with "races" or "genes". This is how people (GERMAN PEOPLE not "german race") feels about it.

Side Note: Interresting how people of other countries like to say that exist a "german race", and the true germans think diferent. :rolleyes:

Well, the discussion moved to the question what constitutes "German", and the ridiculous claim of a "German race" was made. And right now we've come to a point where people are just throwing different studies at each other, trying to prove that it's not culture that defines Germany but rather race...

Oh my God, I guess it is just that hard to grasp.

Racism doesn't "make sense". To dismiss someone's posts because they are racist is to dismiss them because they never made sense to begin with.


This is dogma. And how do you define racism? If you apply the dictionary definition you'd reach the conclusion that doctors who make research on medicines and/or doctors who perscribe medicine based on race (such drugs exist) are racist. Then by your dogmatic world view, you have to classify these doctors and research (which are very effective) as racist and hence non-sense, then dismiss it which would be very idiotic. Now did you get what is hard to grasp and who isnt grasping it?


Maybe others find it in them to try to reply and show him the fallacies of his thinking in the hopes of getting through to him - like e.g. Cabra has been doing again and again in this thread - and while I think that's admirable, I certainly don't have any obligation to extend him the same courtesy. Not him or others like him, as for example you.

If you offer up a ludicrous, inhuman and disgusting premise, you bet I won't take the time to "look at your arguments". Just why the hell should I?


You dont have to do anything I say. I havent got the power to enforce anything on you anyways. I was just pointing out your dogmatic view which is really ironic, given your delusions about being open minded. Things just got carried away...

Well, the discussion moved to the question what constitutes "German", and the ridiculous claim of a "German race" was made. And right now we've come to a point where people are just throwing different studies at each other, trying to prove that it's not culture that defines Germany but rather race...

This studies never proves nothing (or may proves wathever you wish). :p

I agree with your position that the "culture" defines better what a country is. Although my European inheritance ( german and italian), I am Brazilian therefore I share the Brazilian culture that does not have nothing to see with the European one.

You dont have to do anything I say. I havent got the power to enforce anything on you anyways. I was just pointing out your dogmatic view which is really ironic, given your delusions about being open minded. Things just got carried away..."If you're open-minded to verbal diarrhea, you shouldn't be surprised when it turns out you have shit for brains." ;)

German race? ROFL. Racial traits:

+1 to sauerkraut, -2 to DEX ('beer belly')

"If you're open-minded to verbal diarrhea, you shouldn't be surprised when it turns out you have shit for brains." ;)

Another "mature" joke I guess, more suited for your age group to laugh. Although I think it's very chevalier of you to defend your "ex-wife".

Another "mature" joke I guess, more suited for your age group to laugh."Takes one to know one." ;)
Although I think it's very chevalier of you to defend your "ex-wife".Run out of convincing arguments, have we?

"Takes one to know one." ;)
Run out of convincing arguments, have we?

I thought you were older...Just checked your profile....

Although I think it's very chevalier of you to defend your "ex-wife". Why yes, isn't it? :) And with such a snappily wrapped truth, to boot. :fluffle:

I thought you were older...Just checked your profile....Well I suppose I'll take that as a compliment then. :)

I've lived in the UK for two years now and nobody has ever flung shit at me about the war.

However, should anyone start shit, then I'll kick his sorry arse in the sea, Dunkirk style. :D:D:D

By J. Phillipe Rushton, Department of Psychology, University of Western Ontario:
http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/jpr_gould_paid.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sketch-4race-transparent2.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IQ-4races-rotate-highres.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GRE_by_race.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TBC-BW-IQ-SES-withDiff.png ('SES' = 'Socioeconomic Status')

Mean cranial capacity (cc)
Measurement East Asian European African
Autopsy 1351 1356 1223
Endocranial volume 1415 1362 1268
External head measurements 1335 1341 1284
Corrected for body size 1356 1329 1294
Mean 1364 1347 1267

He says that the effienciency that they can learn tactics, use their heads, and their general field discipline, is completely unmatched.
My dad was in the German army. He says their hang for playing Skat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skat) all the time and drinking their heads off whenever they get the chance is completely unmatched. :D

Anyway, we've had the same anti-genetics crap over here in the UK that we're all 'mongrels', but when the DNA from a selection of white Brits was analysed last year, it was found to be identical to the DNA taken from ancient fossils taken from human bones from the Roman era.
Proof?

This is just another pile of crap that the Left-wing has jumped on.
The fact that much of my ancestry did not come from what is today considered German? That there is absolutely no way in hell that I could trace back my genes to Arminius and the Cheruskan warriors which destroyed Varus' Legions and thus "founded" what later became known as Germany?

And besides, the fact that you acknowledged that the Czechs are of German ethnicity pretty much killed your argument. No one is disputing that there is such a thing as German ethnicity, a sub-group of the larger Indo-European ethnic group. I am disputing your assertion that political boundaries represent divisions in ethnicity in Europe to any extent whatsoever. Especially in Germany, which didn't really have stable borders for most of its existence anyways.

Bavarians have more Italian blood in them than other Germans, so they are different.
Proof?

If indeed there is no German race, show me your proof, or is this just another Leftist opinion of yours that you haven't got any thought behind?
See above. German ethnicity, yes. Specifically German genes that only apply to those people living in Germany, Austria and parts of Switzerland and Belgium? No.

By J. Phillipe Rushton, Department of Psychology, University of Western Ontario
Now, you would be perfectly aware that Rushton is an extremely criticised guy, whose methods have been said to contain serious errors time and time again (penis size tells you something about intelligence, does it?).
Furthermore, you know that Rushton only distinguishes three races, Whites, Blacks and Asians. So he accepts that biologically there are no differences between Germans, Italians and Russians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Phillipe_Rushton#Race_evolution_hypothesis
Start there and keep reading. It highlights the issues at hand quite well.

My question to you is...where do you people keep finding these guys? Is there some sort of central website for racialists of all types with just a giant collection of links to these attempts at research?

By J. Phillipe Rushton, Department of Psychology, University of Western Ontario:
http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/jpr_gould_paid.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sketch-4race-transparent2.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IQ-4races-rotate-highres.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GRE_by_race.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TBC-BW-IQ-SES-withDiff.png ('SES' = 'Socioeconomic Status')

Mean cranial capacity (cc)
Measurement East Asian European African
Autopsy 1351 1356 1223
Endocranial volume 1415 1362 1268
External head measurements 1335 1341 1284
Corrected for body size 1356 1329 1294
Mean 1364 1347 1267

Ah yes, Rushton seems to be a favorite by people who cling desperately to the idea that one "race" or another is inherently more intelligent (thus, the superior ubermensch!) than another.

It seems you don't even see the need to make an actual argument, just copy-and-paste. Like people are really going to go "Aha! Yes! Blacks are stupid and Europa reigns supreme!" after reading your bigoted trash. ;) All you are doing is giving a vigorous wank to people who already agree with you - other closet racists, essentially.

No clue. I've never read into my German or American family trees. :p
Ewww, American!
The By-product of a Fraternising GI even?:eek:

i was joking of course but greater alem is upset because nobody but him thinks the commies were worse than the nazi's

I do to.

Mean cranial capacity (cc)
Measurement East Asian European African
Autopsy 1351 1356 1223
Endocranial volume 1415 1362 1268
External head measurements 1335 1341 1284
Corrected for body size 1356 1329 1294
Mean 1364 1347 1267I find it hilarious that cranial capacity is used to assert that those with larger capacities are more intelligent when the Neanderthals had larger cranial capacities than homosapiens.

Just so you know, I don't condone this Fanny person and his views.

My dad was in the German army. He says their hang for playing Skat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skat) all the time and drinking their heads off whenever they get the chance is completely unmatched. :D
The same army which nearly beat the entire world twice. Not only that - it's your army, and you're sitting there ripping it. And you lot ridicule people who say left-wingers are unpatriotic...
Proof?
I believe it was conducted by the L'Oreal Group. Look it up if you're so interested in it.
That there is absolutely no way in hell that I could trace back my genes to Arminius and the Cheruskan warriors which destroyed Varus' Legions and thus "founded" what later became known as Germany?
Proof?
And besides, the fact that you acknowledged that the Czechs are of German ethnicity pretty much killed your argument. No one is disputing that there is such a thing as German ethnicity, a sub-group of the larger Indo-European ethnic group. I am disputing your assertion that political boundaries represent divisions in ethnicity in Europe to any extent whatsoever. Especially in Germany, which didn't really have stable borders for most of its existence anyways.
What are you on about? I didn't say that the Germanic people stopped at the German border. Germans, Czechs, Western Poles, Austrians, and, to some extent, the Dutch, Belgians, Swiss and English are Germanic people - they are the people that are descended from the Barbarian tribes that once inhabited that area.
Proof?
What do you mean, proof? Bavaria borders with Germany. You've been parrotting on about interbreeding between countries - isn't it common sense? Do you get as many tall, blonde, nordic people in Bavaria as you do in Prussia? Don't be silly
See above. German ethnicity, yes. Specifically German genes that only apply to those people living in Germany, Austria and parts of Switzerland and Belgium? No.
Why wouldn't, say a Germanic, barbarian-descended person be different to, say, an Italian? I suggest you read up on natural selection (which you obviously don't fully-understand) before you start trying to argue against what I just said. Different environments (climate, food availability, war, etc etc) all induce different selection pressures.
An analogy: If you take 2 cultures of bacteria. Then you mix an antibiotic agent into one of those cultures; this will mean the weaker bacteria will die, leaving the stronger ones behind (natural selection), whereas the other culture will still be dominated by weaker bacteria.
It's as simple as that. You are just complicating things with your silly personal ideologies.
Now, you would be perfectly aware that Rushton is an extremely criticised guy, whose methods have been said to contain serious errors time and time again (penis size tells you something about intelligence, does it?).
Furthermore, you know that Rushton only distinguishes three races, Whites, Blacks and Asians. So he accepts that biologically there are no differences between Germans, Italians and Russians.
Rushton is just one of many experts that agree intelligence varies with race.
The three races he categorises (Blacks, whites, asians) act as a microcosm of what I'm saying - that different human races have all evolved to be different in their different environments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Phillipe_Rushton#Race_evolution_hypothesis
Start there and keep reading. It highlights the issues at hand quite well.
Is this supposed to sway me? That link is just an explanation of his opinions, which he's backed-up with data. Just because you find it shocking and 'racist' doesn't mean it's wrong. I link to the page in my next post that shows most scientists involved in this area agree with him, to an extent.
Rushton is the perfect example of how the media smears anyone involved in this kind of research.
My question to you is...where do you people keep finding these guys? Is there some sort of central website for racialists of all types with just a giant collection of links to these attempts at research?
Not that I know of....(?!) Is there a site that you use that has a list of all the 'racists' who need to be smeared and terrorised for daring to look into this ill-researched (because it's been censored) area of anthropology?
attempts at research?
Attempts at research? These people are so-far the only ones that have come up with hard facts to support their views. The scum who smear them can only retort with possible little loophopes in their research. Science is on my side, I'm afraid.
PS, you might like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study

Just so you know, I don't condone this Fanny person and his views.
Yes, because you're scared that you get hounded and called a 'racist'.
I find it hilarious that cranial capacity is used to assert that those with larger capacities are more intelligent when the Neanderthals had larger cranial capacities than homosapiens.
That is the most stupid comeback I've ever heard. Neanderthals and homo sapiens are different species. The frontal lobe (thinking part) in neanderthals might be tiny, but the part related to smell might be huge, and actually consitute a larger brain, overall. That's like saying "you're wrong. Elephants have bigger heads than us."
To clear it up, look at this: (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence_(Average_intelligence_gaps_among_races)
Cortical neurons (billions)
East Asian European African
13.767 13.665 13.185
Ah yes, Rushton seems to be a favorite by people who cling desperately to the idea that one "race" or another is inherently more intelligent (thus, the superior ubermensch!) than another.

It seems you don't even see the need to make an actual argument, just copy-and-paste. Like people are really going to go "Aha! Yes! Blacks are stupid and Europa reigns supreme!" after reading your bigoted trash. ;) All you are doing is giving a vigorous wank to people who already agree with you - other closet racists, essentially.
Why would I need to type-out an argument, when the hard facts are there for all to see? Fantastic argument you've constructed there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence_%28Media_portrayal%29
"94 percent of experts believed there is evidence for significant within-group heritability (with an average estimate of ~60% heritability)"

Das ist fuer mich kein Problemm. Es ist etwas 60 Jahren seit dem Zweiten Welt Krieg gewesen und Ich kenne niemand den Deutscher hasst. It's not a problem. I am not from Germany but my Dad is and he doesn't have any problems.

That is the most stupid comeback I've ever heard. Neanderthals and homo sapiens are different species. The frontal lobe (thinking part) in neanderthals might be tiny, but the part related to smell might be huge, and actually consitute a larger brain, overall. That's like saying "you're wrong. Elephants have bigger heads than us."
To clear it up, look at this: (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence_(Average_intelligence_gaps_among_races)
Cortical neurons (billions)
East Asian European African
13.767 13.665 13.185Posting an article that one has to actively look for because it the link doesn't work, with the caption:
The neutrality of this article is disputed.and using it for the basis of an argument is even worse a comeback.

Why would I need to type-out an argument,

Hey, good point!

when the hard facts are there for all to see? Fantastic argument you've constructed there.

Now why should *I* need to type out an argument? When the facts are plain to see.

Well, that was fun. (I know, next you'll claim the facts support you, not me. Then we're into an actual argument... almost. If you can be arsed to type one out.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence_%28Media_portrayal%29
"94 percent of experts believed there is evidence for significant within-group heritability (with an average estimate of ~60% heritability)"

Huh! That quote supports what hypothesis exactly?

This is the problem when you just shrug and shy away from your racist arguments. You allow (well, force) others to construct your arguments FOR you.

Thus I assume you're basically like Ny Nordland and the other closet racists who cite Rushdon to support their racist beliefs. Of course, being closet racists, you all lack the balls to come out and say anything definitive either way, just prancing around your beliefs like a giggling schoolgirl. ;)

Just so you know, I don't condone this Fanny person and his views.That's good to hear. :)

Huh! That quote supports what hypothesis exactly?

This is the problem when you just shrug and shy away from your racist arguments. You allow (well, force) others to construct your arguments FOR you.

Thus I assume you're basically like Ny Nordland and the other closet racists who cite Rushdon to support their racist beliefs. Of course, being closet racists, you all lack the balls to come out and say anything definitive either way, just prancing around your beliefs like a giggling schoolgirl. ;)I love this part of that article especially:
The study is almost twenty years old and it is unknown if its results still apply.

Just so you know, I don't condone this Fanny person and his views.


Yes, because you're scared that you get hounded and called a 'racist'.


Ha! Just shows what a poor understanding you have of GA. He doesn't mind being called a bigot, as he already is called such. I rather think he likes it. So afraid of it? Please.

No, what you must now learn to cope with - and I'll try to hold your hand all 12 steps - is that GA doesn't agree with your views. Period.

The same army which nearly beat the entire world twice. Not only that - it's your army, and you're sitting there ripping it. And you lot ridicule people who say left-wingers are unpatriotic...

Well, I don't have an army, and if you're talking about the Bundeswehr I've see nthe sorry state they keep drinking themselves into on more than enough occasion.
Why would we ridicule people who say left wingers are unpatriotic? I personally would thank them for the compliment....


Proof?

After decades of research, my grandfather was able to trace parts of my family back to the early 17th century. There's virtually no possibility of going back further, as most documentation has been destroyed by the Swedish and Fench.


What do you mean, proof? Bavaria borders with Germany. You've been parrotting on about interbreeding between countries - isn't it common sense? Do you get as many tall, blonde, nordic people in Bavaria as you do in Prussia? Don't be silly

Bavaria borders on Germany, indeed *roflmao
Many patriotic Bavarians would thank you for that comment.
And yes, tall blonde and "nordic" people are just as frequent in Bavaria as they are throughout Central Europe.


Why wouldn't, say a Germanic, barbarian-descended person be different to, say, an Italian? I suggest you read up on natural selection (which you obviously don't fully-understand) before you start trying to argue against what I just said. Different environments (climate, food availability, war, etc etc) all induce different selection pressures.
An analogy: If you take 2 cultures of bacteria. Then you mix an antibiotic agent into one of those cultures; this will mean the weaker bacteria will die, leaving the stronger ones behind (natural selection), whereas the other culture will still be dominated by weaker bacteria.
It's as simple as that. You are just complicating things with your silly personal ideologies.

Oh yes, life was always easy and fun in Italy, never any wars, never any famines, never any epedemics, throughout the millenia. It's paradise on earth. I can definitely see how an environment like that would weaken the population... :rolleyes:

What do you mean, proof? Bavaria borders with Germany. You've been parrotting on about interbreeding between countries - isn't it common sense? Do you get as many tall, blonde, nordic people in Bavaria as you do in Prussia? Don't be sillyInteresting. Did you miss the creation of the German Empire in 1871, or why do you consider Bavaria a separate state? Did you miss the end of WWII, or why do you talk about Prussia as if it still existed?

Just so you know, I don't condone this Fanny person and his views.
I hadn't thought you would, but that's still good to hear. :)

or why do you consider Bavaria a separate state?

I doubt many Bavarians would mind.

Bavaria: The Texas of Germany.

I doubt many Bavarians would mind.
Depends. The ones in the larger cities are usually more reasonable :D
Bavaria: The Texas of Germany.
Nah, Texas is the Bavaria of the US. Texas isn't quite as bad, since they don't have their own Conservative Party that's a sister party to the Republicans as the CSU is to the CDU over here. :p

That is the most stupid comeback I've ever heard. Neanderthals and homo sapiens are different species. The frontal lobe (thinking part) in neanderthals might be tiny, but the part related to smell might be huge, and actually consitute a larger brain, overall. <Shrug> This might be true for Asians, also.

That's like saying "you're wrong. Elephants have bigger heads than us."
To clear it up, look at this: (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence_(Average_intelligence_gaps_among_races)
Cortical neurons (billions)
East Asian European African
13.767 13.665 13.185No, it's like saying that simply because a member of a race has a bigger head doesn't mean that that particular race is more intelligent, and even if that particular race is more intelligent, there isn't necessarily a correlation between cranial capacity and intelligence.

Something I thought up: if you ever get shit flung at you because of being German and the whole WWII affair, how do you handle it? I am of German descent but I am also from polish and scottish descent but people on look at the german part.


its hard to handle I made the biggest mistake in my history class we were talking about our heritage and I said I was polish and scottish everybody thought that was cool but then I said my great grandfather which is true was German and fought for the Americans and as soon as I said that my history teacher said hey a nazi as a joke and I was labeled that and now thats all I get called. And its not like I am german and I immigrated over I as well as my whole family lives in here in the US but my ancestors from long ago were German,Polish and Scottish but I still got labeled for my ancestry

Something I thought up: if you ever get shit flung at you because of being German and the whole WWII affair, how do you handle it? I am of German descent but I am also from polish and scottish descent but people on look at the german part.


its hard to handle I made the biggest mistake in my history class we were talking about our heritage and I said I was polish and scottish everybody thought that was cool but then I said my great grandfather which is true was German and fought for the Americans and as soon as I said that my history teacher said hey a nazi as a joke and I was labeled that and now thats all I get called. And its not like I am german and I immigrated over I as well as my whole family lives in here in the US but my ancestors from long ago were German,Polish and Scottish but I still got labeled for my ancestry

Ignore it. Just don't react to it at all.

As you observed very well, neither you nor the rest of your family ever had any relations to Nazi Germany... well, no positive ones, anyway. So just don't let them stick a false label on you.
Don't defend yourself, that'll just make it worse.
Don't accuse them back.
Just smile at them, shake your head and walk away. :)

Ignore it. Just don't react to it at all.

As you observed very well, neither you nor the rest of your family ever had any relations to Nazi Germany... well, no positive ones, anyway. So just don't let them stick a false label on you.
Don't defend yourself, that'll just make it worse.
Don't accuse them back.
Just smile at them, shake your head and walk away. :)

I think it'd be fun to play it up. Instead of being the bigger man and walking away, say with a perfect Dr Strangelove voice, "Our family were NOT nazis, mein furhe- I mean, my friend."

Or the more subtle approach. Deny it all with rationality and reason, but occasionally let slip a little "heil teacher!" or goose-step for 0.3 seconds. Just to keep people on edge. :p

I think it'd be fun to play it up. Instead of being the bigger man and walking away, say with a perfect Dr Strangelove voice, "Our family were NOT nazis, mein furhe- I mean, my friend."

Or the more subtle approach. Deny it all with rationality and reason, but occasionally let slip a little "heil teacher!" or goose-step for 0.3 seconds. Just to keep people on edge. :p

That'll only work if he has the talent to pull it off, though. A bit of a John Cleese attitude would be required. I don't know if he has that, or wants to go to such length.

But if you do, Scotmercia, tape it and post it here :D

Well, I don't have an army, and if you're talking about the Bundeswehr I've see nthe sorry state they keep drinking themselves into on more than enough occasion.
Why would we ridicule people who say left wingers are unpatriotic? I personally would thank them for the compliment....



After decades of research, my grandfather was able to trace parts of my family back to the early 17th century. There's virtually no possibility of going back further, as most documentation has been destroyed by the Swedish and Fench.



Bavaria borders on Germany, indeed *roflmao
Many patriotic Bavarians would thank you for that comment.
And yes, tall blonde and "nordic" people are just as frequent in Bavaria as they are throughout Central Europe.


His point was nordic people are less % of the population in Bavaria then in Northern Germany. Are you going to dispute that? For ex, does Bavaria have more blonds than Schleswig-Holstein?



Oh yes, life was always easy and fun in Italy, never any wars, never any famines, never any epedemics, throughout the millenia. It's paradise on earth. I can definitely see how an environment like that would weaken the population... :rolleyes:

Climate plays a big role in natural selection. Again, are you going to dispute the fact Italy and Germany has very different climates?

Interesting. Did you miss the creation of the German Empire in 1871, or why do you consider Bavaria a separate state? Did you miss the end of WWII, or why do you talk about Prussia as if it still existed?

I thought that was obvious. He was referring to Northern Germany when he said Prussia...

I shouldn't even bother replying to this - none of you has yet to offer me, or nordligmark any evidence to even slightly contradict us. All you've yet to offer is pointless, snivelling remarks. You may be satisfied with yourself, but your arguments don't hold up.
By the way, when I said 'Bavaria borders with Germany' it was a typing error; i meant Bavaria borders (nearly) with Italy.
and using it for the basis of an argument is even worse a comeback.
The argument's neutrality is disputed because people like you have tagged it as such. Does that tag nullify the research and experiments it has cited? It certainly does not. Try again.
Hey, good point!
Now why should *I* need to type out an argument? When the facts are plain to see.
Well, that was fun. (I know, next you'll claim the facts support you, not me. Then we're into an actual argument... almost. If you can be arsed to type one out.)
Do you think that making sneid little comments like above, instead of making proper, intellectual retorts are satisfactory? I posted links to the data. Is that not all right for you, or do I need to write an essay for each link I use?
Huh! That quote supports what hypothesis exactly?
That anyone who knows anything about this subject agrees that this is a good theory, that is scientifically sound.
This is the problem when you just shrug and shy away from your racist arguments. You allow (well, force) others to construct your arguments FOR you.
Thus I assume you're basically like Ny Nordland and the other closet racists who cite Rushdon to support their racist beliefs. Of course, being closet racists, you all lack the balls to come out and say anything definitive either way, just prancing around your beliefs like a giggling schoolgirl. ;)
Boring. Call me a racist all you want, it just shows how desperate you are.
After decades of research, my grandfather was able to trace parts of my family back to the early 17th century. There's virtually no possibility of going back further, as most documentation has been destroyed by the Swedish and Fench.
So what was the point of Neu Leonstein making that point in the first place? None - there isn't one.
Oh yes, life was always easy and fun in Italy, never any wars, never any famines, never any epedemics, throughout the millenia. It's paradise on earth. I can definitely see how an environment like that would weaken the population... :rolleyes:
Every country has it's problems, although I don't remember Italy having any famines...
Does Italy have sub-zero winters? Were Italians attacked continuously throughout history? Were barbarian hordes rampaging across Italy slaughtering people like they were in Germany? No. You'd be very silly to assume that Italy and Germany have exactly the same history.
Look, would you agree that countries like Germany have always fought better than the Italians (keeping in mind that the Roman legions were pretty much entirely made of recruits from their colonies)? Yet, does Germany preech war to everyone of its citizens, and does Italy teach its people to be wimps? No. Your culture 'theory' is complete rubbish.

<snip>

Rushton is just one of many experts that agree intelligence varies with race.
The three races he categorises (Blacks, whites, asians) act as a microcosm of what I'm saying - that different human races have all evolved to be different in their different environments.


Is this supposed to sway me? That link is just an explanation of his opinions, which he's backed-up with data. Just because you find it shocking and 'racist' doesn't mean it's wrong. I link to the page in my next post that shows most scientists involved in this area agree with him, to an extent.
Rushton is the perfect example of how the media smears anyone involved in this kind of research.

Not that I know of....(?!) Is there a site that you use that has a list of all the 'racists' who need to be smeared and terrorised for daring to look into this ill-researched (because it's been censored) area of anthropology?

Attempts at research? These people are so-far the only ones that have come up with hard facts to support their views. The scum who smear them can only retort with possible little loophopes in their research. Science is on my side, I'm afraid.
PS, you might like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study

Fannytopia, I think you should create a seperate thread for this discussions. It really is very far from the original topic and it might get more readers.
Btw, Neu Leonstein, if these were "attempts at research", why are people taking these so seriously?


Steven Pinker argues a fear of the implications of the science of human nature ("mind, brain, genes, and evolution") has led to the perception that these are dangerous ideas.[130] Pinker argues this has resulted in a denial of human nature in which "large swaths of the intellectual landscape have been reengineered to try to rule [...] hypotheses out a priori (race does not exist, intelligence does not exist, the mind is a blank slate inscribed by parents)." Scientists working in these areas have in the past been targets of censorship, violence, and comparisons to Nazis.[131]




Supporters of race and intelligence research have accused other scientists of suppressing scientific debate for political purposes. Behavioral geneticist Glayde Whitney argued in his controversial 1995 presidential address to the Behavior Genetics Association that suppression of debate on both individual and group hereditary differences has occurred as a result of a larger ideology of "environmental determinism for all important human traits ... [a] 'Marxist-Lysenkoist' denial of genetics."[7]

Scientists who openly support the hereditary hypothesis have in a number of occurrences faced harassment and interference with their work or funding. Critic of race science William H. Tucker considers these events to be unjustified, "intolerable violation of academic freedom” (Tucker 2002). When J. Phillipe Rushton was being censured by superiors at his University of Western Ontario in 1989 "despite," as Tucker notes, "being the recipient of a prestigious Guggenheim fellowship and having one of the most productive records of peer-reviewed publication in his department," even notable scientists who had criticized his work, such as James Flynn and Jack Block, wrote to the university on his behalf (Tucker 2002).




Source: Wiki

So is it normal for superiors at universities to censor reasearch??

His point was nordic people are less % of the population in Bavaria then in Northern Germany. Are you going to dispute that? For ex, does Bavaria have more blonds than Schleswig-Holstein?
I seriously doubt that there are statistics on that, but you are talking to a natural blonde from Bavaria here, if it's any consolation.
If there is a difference in numbers of blonde people, it's not noticable or even striking.


Climate plays a big role in natural selection. Again, are you going to dispute the fact Italy and Germany has very different climates?

Are you comparing Sicily to Mecklenburg or Milan to Konstanz?

Every country has it's problems, although I don't remember Italy having any famines...

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-27675


Does Italy have sub-zero winters?
Bolzano has temperatures of -10 Celsius and below in January and February


Were Italians attacked continuously throughout history?


Let's see... Vandals, Huns, Visigoths, Vikings, later on Austrians, Germans, Russians... not to mention the fighting that went on between rivaling Italian cities like Genua and Venice, Florence and Pisa, etc.

Were barbarian hordes rampaging across Italy slaughtering people like they were in Germany?

See above.


No. You'd be very silly to assume that Italy and Germany have exactly the same history.
Look, would you agree that countries like Germany have always fought better than the Italians (keeping in mind that the Roman legions were pretty much entirely made of recruits from their colonies)? Yet, does Germany preech war to everyone of its citizens, and does Italy teach its people to be wimps? No. Your culture 'theory' is complete rubbish.

You may want to read up a bit on Italian history.
Of course they're histories are not identical. no two towns have the same history! And yet, Italian history and German history show more parallels than say German and British history.

Did you spot the flaw in your argument about the troops from the colonies yourself, or do you want me to point out to you that in order to recruit from colonies, one first has to conquer them?

I seriously doubt that there are statistics on that, but you are talking to a natural blonde from Bavaria here, if it's any consolation.
If there is a difference in numbers of blonde people, it's not noticable or even striking.


There might even be more blonds in Bavaria, since it's population is higher than S-H. However I was asking about percentages.



Are you comparing Sicily to Mecklenburg or Milan to Konstanz?

:rolleyes: You know I meant "overall". Most of Italy doesnt have the climate of 1500 m up in Italian Alps...

There might even be more blonds in Bavaria, since it's population is higher than S-H. However I was asking about percentages.



Find the statistics if you can, I can only speak from experience here when I say there's no noticable difference.


:rolleyes: You know I meant "overall". Most of Italy doesnt have the climate of 1500 m in Italian Alps...

Overall I guess slightly warmer and noticably drier.
Oh, and Milan is a good deal away from the alps...

The map...so you can see it. This shows the distribution of light hair and light eyes. (http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haireyemapsk5.jpg)

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/3176/haireyemapdo3.th.jpg (http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haireyemapdo3.jpg)

As you can see, what was called "Prussia" and the area of Bavaria are different in that there are more fair people in Northern Germany.

The same army which nearly beat the entire world twice.
No, dude. Those were two other armies. The Bundeswehr makes a big deal out of stressing that they don't consider themselves direct successors to the Wehrmacht and the Imperial Army before that.
Maybe they'd make a link with the Reichswehr though, no idea.

Not only that - it's your army, and you're sitting there ripping it. And you lot ridicule people who say left-wingers are unpatriotic...
Oh, I'm an internationalist. I am unpatriotic.

Proof?
Well, there may be little parts in it. But for example the aforementioned Italians (or Romans, beating the entire world and being the top culture, of course, following up from the Greeks) did quite a lot of mixing with many tribes.
Not only that, but the Franks and Saxons largely destroyed or pushed away the original Germanic tribes.

What are you on about? I didn't say that the Germanic people stopped at the German border. Germans, Czechs, Western Poles, Austrians, and, to some extent, the Dutch, Belgians, Swiss and English are Germanic people - they are the people that are descended from the Barbarian tribes that once inhabited that area.
That depends on the time of the Barbarians you're talking about. Many of the original tribes were either wiped out or bred out by the Romans, and then mixed with the other tribes that followed.
And then...wouldn't "natural selection pressures" make everyone the same anyways?

Do you get as many tall, blonde, nordic people in Bavaria as you do in Prussia? Don't be silly
Yes. I suggest you go and visit the place. Just keep your mouth shut, or Antifa might make the trip somewhat less enjoyable for you.

Why wouldn't, say a Germanic, barbarian-descended person be different to, say, an Italian?
Because about a million barbaric tribes marched into Italy at many different points in time. That's the point - Europe has a common history, and that caused massive amounts of mixing and interbreeding between whatever ethnic groups there might have been originally.

I suggest you read up on natural selection (which you obviously don't fully-understand) before you start trying to argue against what I just said. Different environments (climate, food availability, war, etc etc) all induce different selection pressures.
That's big words, mate. You're telling me that 2000 years or so are enough to create distinct and different races within an environment that is largely homogenous.
And besides, natural selection would mean that...say, brown-eyed children are more likely to die in Sweden than blue-eyed ones. That'll require some backing up on your part.

An analogy: If you take 2 cultures of bacteria. Then you mix an antibiotic agent into one of those cultures; this will mean the weaker bacteria will die, leaving the stronger ones behind (natural selection), whereas the other culture will still be dominated by weaker bacteria.
Bacteria will have thousands of generations in a matter of minutes. Humans need a lot longer.
And not only that - you haven't shown that within Europe selection pressures are any different. Climates don't vary widely, food availability and war are short-term phenomenons and thus don't change genetics through national selection in any significant way.

Rushton is just one of many experts that agree intelligence varies with race.
Now you're doing the same thing some people do with global warming. You pick and choose the nutcases and present them as if they were a valid view.

The three races he categorises (Blacks, whites, asians) act as a microcosm of what I'm saying - that different human races have all evolved to be different in their different environments.
Just assuming that your world was real - it should be pretty obvious that the genetic difference between blacks, whites and asians is larger than the genetic difference between Italians and Germans.

Just because you find it shocking and 'racist' doesn't mean it's wrong.
You read the penis thing, didn't you? Not only has research indicated that black men have longer, not thicker, penises (thus questioning his "big" scale), but he's been ridiculed for putting up absolutely no support for the idea. The only proof he has is his personal opinion:
Rushton has stated that the evolution of intelligence is inversely related to the evolution of penis size, representing a genetic trade-off saying "it's more brain or more penis. You can't have everything." Rushton has not provided any direct evidence to support a relation between penis size and either intelligence or reproductive frequency in humans, and relies on examples of evolutionary trade-offs between brain size and reproductive frequency that permeates the r-K evolutionary scale.
That's the quality of his research. Find some of your other experts.

The scum who smear them can only retort with possible little loophopes in their research.
The problem is that those are the sort of loopholes they put in there quite knowingly because they change the outcome. Selection bias, faulty reasoning, wrong statistical methods...all these things that indicate that these "researchers" have a result first and then just look for ways to create some tables to supports them.

Science is on my side, I'm afraid.
PS, you might like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study
You read the 'interpretations' bit, right?

The map...so you can see it. This shows the distribution of light hair and light eyes. (http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haireyemapsk5.jpg)
Source?

EDIT: Yay!
http://rcatholic-l.freeservers.com/nordic.html
I
Behold, my child, the Nordic man,
And be as like him, as you can;
His legs are long, his mind is slow,
His hair is lank and made of tow.

II
And here we have the Alpine Race:
Oh! What a broad and foolish face!
His skin is of a dirty yellow.
He is a most unpleasant fellow.

III
The most degraded of them all
Mediterranean we call.
His hair is crisp, and even curls,
And he is saucy with the girls.

I'm a quarter German and I handle the whole WWII thing by telling people to STFU.

My German ancestors left Germany 20 years before World War I and their son, my grandfather, was a member of the US Army during WWII. So seeing as I am not related to anyone who fought for the Nazi army or even lived in Germany (as far as I know) during WWII, I don't see why I should get any criticism for my descent.

In relation to the image posted a few posts ago, I have dark brown hair and brown eyes, not exactly very German. :p

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-27675

Mmm, fascinating. Italy had a famine. Is this meant to prove me wrong? Aside from the point that you brought up famine, not me (my questioning of Italy's famines was just a query) famine is not a factor in natural selection. Famine is the lack of food as a whole (ie drought), rather than difficulty in obtaining food, as such (ie a deer is harder to catch than a chicken) which was what my point actually was.
Bolzano has temperatures of -10 Celsius and below in January and February
And Bolzano, which is high in the alps, represents all of Italy? What is the point in saying that?
Let's see... Vandals, Huns, Visigoths, Vikings, later on Austrians, Germans, Russians... not to mention the fighting that went on between rivaling Italian cities like Genua and Venice, Florence and Pisa, etc.
Exaggerately slightly:
Vandals - raided some ports a couple of times.
Huns - invaded and destroyed much of northern Italy easily. Then left.
etc, etc.
No country in Europe or Western Asia was left out of attacks from the barbarians. It's the norm for every country, so is irrelevant to this subject.
However, when you take into account that a good portion of those attacking barbarians were actually German themselves, the situation changes.
See above.
As I said, the Italians were more than happy to be walked over by any invaders (which, by-the-way, were often Germans).
You may want to read up a bit on Italian history.
See above.
Of course they're histories are not identical. no two towns have the same history!
Exactly my point! However, are the histories of Munich and Nuremberg; London and York; etc, going to be as different as those of, say, Berlin and Rome? The climates change, national borders appear, etc. If Munich is attacked by Huns from the East, it's likely so will Nuremberg, but not Rome. People can gradually (sometimes suddenly) change as you cross the continents.
And yet, Italian history and German history show more parallels than say German and British history.
That's quite a claim to say you know the entire military history of those 3 countries, and for the past few thousand years, and even more so that you can compare them to each other.
The English are mostly Anglo-Saxon to begin with (from Germany). They're virtually the same people.
Did you spot the flaw in your argument about the troops from the colonies yourself, or do you want me to point out to you that in order to recruit from colonies, one first has to conquer them?
The beginning of Rome was a mixture of luck and economic power. Their first real wars were against the Greeks (who beat the Romans, but couldn't sustain the fight) and the Carthaginians, who beat the Romans almost every time they met, except at the Battle of Carthage, which was the important one. And from there it moved on.
Rome's sheer power and wealth was what allowed it to succeed.

You can argue with me about European history if it makes you feel happy, but this isn't really proving the data you've been shown wrong, is it now?

You can argue with me about European history if it makes you feel happy, but this isn't really proving the data you've been shown wrong, is it now?

I suppose you'd whine like you did when someone mentioned your ad hominems, if I pointed out that the burden of proof is on you, eh?

Something I thought up: if you ever get shit flung at you because of being German and the whole WWII affair, how do you handle it?

I just explain to people that not everyone in Germany were Nazis during World War II. And not many Germans knew the truth about what the Nazis were doing behind closed doors. All they had to go on, were the words of the Propaganda Minister.

As for whether or not a person is German, I looked it up at the German Consulate General Office in Atlanta, Ga. And I quote:


Question 2
How do I obtain German citizenship ?

- by birth to a German parent
Laws regarding citizenship have been changed several times over the last decades. Whether or not a person has acquired German citizenship may therefore depend on the person's date of birth:

If you were born before January 1, 1975:

- If your parents were married at the time of your birth you acquired German citizenship if your father was German; you did not acquire German citizenship if only your mother was German (unless you would otherwise have been stateless).
- If your parents were not married at the time of your birth you acquired German citizenship if your mother was German; you did not acquire German citizenship if only your father was German.

If you were born on or after January 1, 1975:

If your parents were married at the time of your birth you acquired German citizenship if at least one parent was German.
If your parents were not married at the time of your birth you acquired German citizenship if your mother was German; you did not acquire German citizenship if only your father was German. However: a person born out of wedlock on or after July 1, 1993 can acquire German citizenship if only the father is German and if the father acknowledges paternity.


-by birth in Germany
If you were born after December 31, 1999 to foreign parents in Germany.
One of the parents must have been a legal resident in Germany for at least eight years at the time of your birth.
In addition, at least one parent must have an unlimited residence permit ("unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis") or a residence entitlement ("Aufenthaltsberechtigung") at the time of your birth
If you obtain another citizenship by birth, you have to give up one citizenship between ages 18 and 23.

According to this, anyone born after January 1st, 1975, and was born to at least 1 German parent with German citizenship, and they were married at the time of your birth, you are in fact, a German citizen, and you can formalize your citizenship by applying to your local German Consulate General Office for a Certificate of Citizenship. That Certificate, in certain cases, will allow you to obtain your German passport (if you so wish to do so).

This is how I am able to claim that I am a German citizen, as I was born after Jan. 1st, 1975, both of my parents are German with German citizenship, AND they were married at the time of my birth. All I need is the Certificate of Citizenship and a German passport to make it official.

I'm about half German and Dutch and a quarter Italian. No one has ever made any comments about WWII to me.

The only way my German ancestry has affected me was that I attempted to learn some German in middle school (mostly unsuccessfully: I'm really bad at pronouncing words), and that I pretty much always play as Germany in Civilization 4 :).

I seem to be much more in touch with my Italian heritage. Well, it's more like I'm very fascinated with ancient Rome. I love the Latin language very much.

This is how I am able to claim that I am a German citizen, as I was born after Jan. 1st, 1975, both of my parents are German with German citizenship, AND they were married at the time of my birth. All I need is the Certificate of Citizenship and a German passport to make it official.
Yeah. "Auslandsdeutsch".

But you obviously haven't had the experience of growing up in Germany. And if you look at the way Germans act - it's a complex combination of social phenomena, from Black Bread over the weather to the whole Nazi-guilt thing. I'm arguing that you can't learn that unless you grow up there.

Three links, two for you, one for Fanny.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return#Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_German
They're Russians. And now they live in Germany. Blood is of no consequence, they speak Russian, they act like Russians, they eat Russian food. There is nothing wrong with that, but it just tells me that blood isn't important in this question.

And this is a huge essay about the origin of the "European Races". I suggest Fanny and people who agree with him read it.
http://www.hschamberlain.net/hankins/racialbasis01.html

I think the consulate would make that distinction. And since they don't, I disagree. Just because I grew up in the States, doesn't mean I didn't live like a German. My parents have never once changed their ways since living here. I grew up in a German household.

So, I find it, insulting, for you to tell me I haven't lived like a German. And I have spent half my life making vacation trips to Germany, living with relatives, etc. I don't see much difference between the social structure of Germany and that of the United States. What differences I do see, are that Germany's society is far more open-minded and far less arrogant (in most respects) than American society. For one, I don't see Germany making homosexuals look like 2nd-class citizens because they live a different lifestyle. I also see a much better healthcare system, a much cheaper and more productive education system. But Germany does have its social issues. For example, all the Turks that are now living in Germany. They're identical to the immigration issue facing the US with the Mexicans right now.

So, I don't see your point.

I think the consulate would make that distinction.
I'm afraid so.

So, I find it, insulting, for you to tell me I haven't lived like a German.
Is a kid born to Chinese parents in the States the same as a kid born to Chinese parents in China?
I'm not implying anything more than that the social environment makes a major difference, and the US and Germany certainly are very different. I find it difficult to forget your outburst in that football thread, and particularly the sort of things you said to justify them. They were very (pardon the word) "un-German". Very American.

...a much cheaper and more productive education system.
Cheaper, yes. Productive...well, no. :D

I find it difficult to forget your outburst in that football thread, and particularly the sort of things you said to justify them. They were very (pardon the word) "un-German". Very American.

Riiiiiight. Like I've never seen a German react the same way before. You must live in a very unique part of Germany to have never seen a German react in a "un-German" way. That, or your more naive than I am.

In relation to the image posted a few posts ago, I have dark brown hair and brown eyes, not exactly very German. :p

Meh, you dont have to have light hair and light eyes (or a combo of the two) to of German blood. Infact, blondes are the minority in every country...so to say that not being Blonde makes you un-German..is just dumb.:p

Meh, you dont have to have light hair and light eyes (or a combo of the two) to of German blood. Infact, blondes are the minority in every country...so to say that not being Blonde makes you un-German..is just dumb.:p

Yeah. My parents are brown haired and brown eyed, and yet, they were born and raised in Germany.

Yeah. My parents are brown haired and brown eyed, and yet, they were born and raised in Germany.

Right. Like I said, blondes are the minority in every country..its just that in some places there are more than others.

I'd say the average German has Blue eyes and meduim Brown hair. If I had to guess.

Right. Like I said, blondes are the minority in every country..its just that in some places there are more than others.

I'd say the average German has Blue eyes and meduim Brown hair. If I had to guess.

Sounds about right :). But I've found more Germans with brown eyes or hazel eyes than blue.

Sounds about right :). But I've found more Germans with brown eyes or hazel eyes than blue.
I think it depends where you go. My parents said that Germans in Bavaria tend to have darker features (not dark..just darker) than Germans in Berlin, Frankfurt or Hamburg...I have been to Schleswig Holstein and Rostock...and the majority of the people there had blue eyes for sure...but then, those were in the extreame German north.

Riiiiiight. Like I've never seen a German react the same way before.
Well, the others here certainly didn't start going on tirades about Native Americans and about German nationalism. There certainly are Germans who talk like that. They even have a political party! It's called NPD.

My question is - what is so great about Germany that randoms from all over the planet go ahead and identify themselves with it? :confused:

Mmm, fascinating. Italy had a famine. Is this meant to prove me wrong? Aside from the point that you brought up famine, not me (my questioning of Italy's famines was just a query) famine is not a factor in natural selection. Famine is the lack of food as a whole (ie drought), rather than difficulty in obtaining food, as such (ie a deer is harder to catch than a chicken) which was what my point actually was.

So you're saying it's easier to find food in Italy than it is in Germany? Based on the climate (especially considering rainfall and temperature) it's easier to grow and find food in Germany.


And Bolzano, which is high in the alps, represents all of Italy? What is the point in saying that?

Your assumption that Italy doesn't have subzero winters. There are plenty of places in Germany where the temperature won't fall below freezing during a regular winter, either.


Exaggerately slightly:
Vandals - raided some ports a couple of times.
Huns - invaded and destroyed much of northern Italy easily. Then left.
etc, etc.
No country in Europe or Western Asia was left out of attacks from the barbarians. It's the norm for every country, so is irrelevant to this subject.
However, when you take into account that a good portion of those attacking barbarians were actually German themselves, the situation changes.

As I said, the Italians were more than happy to be walked over by any invaders (which, by-the-way, were often Germans).

Well, if it's the norm for every country, why would you quote it as something particular to Germany?
Germany was "walked over" by invaders just as often. The Saxons come to mind, as do the Romans, the Huns, later on the Swedish, the French, the Russians.... the list is endless.


Exactly my point! However, are the histories of Munich and Nuremberg; London and York; etc, going to be as different as those of, say, Berlin and Rome? The climates change, national borders appear, etc. If Munich is attacked by Huns from the East, it's likely so will Nuremberg, but not Rome. People can gradually (sometimes suddenly) change as you cross the continents.

That's quite a claim to say you know the entire military history of those 3 countries, and for the past few thousand years, and even more so that you can compare them to each other.
The English are mostly Anglo-Saxon to begin with (from Germany). They're virtually the same people.

I was talking about the fact that Italy, like Germany, only became a nation in the late 19th century. Before that, Italian countries and cities, just like the German ones, spent a lot of time fighting each other.
Britain became a nation very early on and never faced such problems.

Oh, and if Munich was attacked by the Huns, chances were that Nuremberg would help the Huns rather than Munich.



You can argue with me about European history if it makes you feel happy, but this isn't really proving the data you've been shown wrong, is it now?


And what data did you show yet to prove that there is a genetic basis in Germany for military prowess? None.
You speculted based on observations and a highly biased perception of racial theories.

Well, the others here certainly didn't start going on tirades about Native Americans and about German nationalism. There certainly are Germans who talk like that. They even have a political party! It's called NPD.

My question is - what is so great about Germany that randoms from all over the planet go ahead and identify themselves with it? :confused:

The grass is always greener on the other side.

The one thing that clearly shows that none of these people have an understanding of German mentality is the simpe fact that they want to be German.
Germans don't normally want to be German, they just are. The best you'll get in regards to partiotism would be a disinterested shrug.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

The one thing that clearly shows that none of these people have an understanding of German mentality is the simpe fact that they want to be German.
Germans don't normally want to be German, they just are. The best you'll get in regards to partiotism would be a disinterested shrug.

What about people in Luxembourg?

Exaggerately slightly:
Vandals - raided some ports a couple of times.
Huns - invaded and destroyed much of northern Italy easily. Then left.
etc, etc.
No country in Europe or Western Asia was left out of attacks from the barbarians. It's the norm for every country, so is irrelevant to this subject.
However, when you take into account that a good portion of those attacking barbarians were actually German themselves, the situation changes.
Vandals? No, not just raiding. They sacked ROME herself. They raided everything to Carthage. That's no simple feat for a tribe of unwashed barbarians. Even Hannibal didn't have the strength and skill to assault Rome herself. And the Huns didn't really leave, per se. They had other conquest to attend to, more lands to envelope into their empire. There's much more to it than riding in, killing people and leaving. They did it to teach the Empires a lesson. Granted they weren't even Germanic, but the bulk of their troops were at that point. And part of the reason the Germans attacked so many places was that empires bought German mercenaries, spreading them everywhere. If you spread any people somewhere foreign, they're bound to have all sorts of trouble with the indigenous peoples. Which is what happened when the Huns invaded. The Germanic tribes were desperate and terrified. They had nowhere to go, and when the Roman Empires were less than favorable to refugees, they had no other option but to fight for their very lives. Like when the Ostrogoths, a very peaceful tribe, sued the Eastern Empire for entry. The Legionaires treated them horribly. They weren't getting their rations, their women were given to the soldiers and they weren't being processed into the Empire's lands as promised. So they formed a half-starving mob and broke through the Roman boarderguard, forcing the Emperor to recognize his agreement. But when they got to Adrianople and tried to peacefully claim what the Emperor had promised them for so long, they were refused entry. So they revolted and sacked the Balkan peninsula to the gates of Constantinople itself. They even took it later, during another revolt, but that's really a separate issue. And centuries before that, it was the Mycenaeans and the Achaeans who came west and invaded modern-day Greece. The Dorians who invaded Greece and Italy. The Latin tribes who overthrew the Etruscans and ultimately conquered the lands that became known as the Roman Empire. What about the Assyrians, the Persians? They fought with all sorts of peoples. Everyone around them. The Persians had an impressive empire at one point. Ever hear of their attempts at conquering Greece? Or what of Alexander the Great's conquests all the way into India? Barbarian or no, war is war, conquest is conquest.

As I said, the Italians were more than happy to be walked over by any invaders (which, by-the-way, were often Germans).
No! No one wanted to be conquered. They wouldn't mind if someone crushed their overlords on occasion, but they didn't want to be conquered themselves.

Exactly my point! However, are the histories of Munich and Nuremberg; London and York; etc, going to be as different as those of, say, Berlin and Rome? The climates change, national borders appear, etc. If Munich is attacked by Huns from the East, it's likely so will Nuremberg, but not Rome. People can gradually (sometimes suddenly) change as you cross the continents.

That's quite a claim to say you know the entire military history of those 3 countries, and for the past few thousand years, and even more so that you can compare them to each other.
The English are mostly Anglo-Saxon to begin with (from Germany). They're virtually the same people.
Ha! No, they aren't. The Angli and the Saxons both invaded Britannia and had to adapt to the native Celts to solidify their permanent migration to the region, which fundamentally altered their own cultures. In fact, the new Anglo-Saxons combined a number of traits from all three groups, so while they may have been significantly Germanic in origin, the English, as they came to be called, were not the same as the Germans.

The beginning of Rome was a mixture of luck and economic power. Their first real wars were against the Greeks (who beat the Romans, but couldn't sustain the fight) and the Carthaginians, who beat the Romans almost every time they met, except at the Battle of Carthage, which was the important one. And from there it moved on.
Rome's sheer power and wealth was what allowed it to succeed.

No, the beginning of Rome was a mixture of desperation and revolution. Economic power followed after they had rid themselves of their Etruscan oppressors, making them free to trade with other peoples. Their initial wars were actually to conquer Italy and absorb the other Latin and Italian tribes. Wealth was Rome's power. Without it they couldn't have won their wars agains the Greek city-states or Carthage. And the Battle of Zama (the real name of the battle outside Carthage) was the exception to Roman inadequacy. Scipio Africanus had been using Hannibal's own methods against him, which is what drove Hannibal to return to Carthage, and during the final battle, Hannibal's army was reduced mostly to raw recruits with a few veterans. Scipio's army was composed of veteran soldiers who had crushed the Carthaginians in Spain. And Scipio had the advantage of the Numidian cavalry, which Hannibal had previously had. Roman troops generally weren't very good, though, until the reforms of Gaius Marius. And what really allowed them to succeed was the division of Europe into small tribes. The Romans never could have broken a united Gall or Germania. Well, they never entirely broke Germania, anyway, despite their efforts.

What about people in Luxembourg?

Huh? I'm pretty sure they don't want to be German, why?

I shouldn't even bother replying to this - none of you has yet to offer me, or nordligmark any evidence to even slightly contradict us. All you've yet to offer is pointless, snivelling remarks. You may be satisfied with yourself, but your arguments don't hold up.
By the way, when I said 'Bavaria borders with Germany' it was a typing error; i meant Bavaria borders (nearly) with Italy.You have yet to provide conclusive evidence in favor of both your racist agendas.
The argument's neutrality is disputed because people like you have tagged it as such. Does that tag nullify the research and experiments it has cited? It certainly does not. Try again.Now of course, when I'm asked to describe people like me, I'd probably use terms such as "reasonable", "serious", and "trustworthy". I'm sure there's plenty of people that would dispute that I'm all of those, but that doesn't mean "the people that tagged it" aren't.
It's funny that you're invoking an argument that implies a conspiracy in order to defend an unreliable source. Wikipedia is a good place to start, but in the end it's still a consumer edited source, and is hardly an unbreakable basis for a debate. If the article is even tagged as disputed, don't even bother posting information from it. It weakens your credibility.
Boring. Call me a racist all you want, it just shows how desperate you are.Or what a racist you are. Indeed, the argument that the word "racist" gets flung at people that don't deserve it too often has its merits. However that doesn't mean it never gets flung at real racists.

I thought that was obvious. He was referring to Northern Germany when he said Prussia...I know plenty of North Germans that would take offense to that...

Vandals? No, not just raiding. They sacked ROME herself. They raided everything to Carthage. That's no simple feat for a tribe of unwashed barbarians. Even Hannibal didn't have the strength and skill to assault Rome herself.-snippage-.
I imagine that could very well be mostly true but Hannibal actually did assault Rome itself.

I imagine that could very well be mostly true but Hannibal actually did assault Rome itself.
True, he was at the gates, but he never succeeded in sacking the city, iirc.

Huh? I'm pretty sure they don't want to be German, why? Oh, you know how those Luxembourgers are. <.< :p

Oh, you know how those Luxembourgers are. <.< :p
Care to enlighten those of us who aren't so familiar with them?

Care to enlighten those of us who aren't so familiar with them?'Twas a joke. I know nothing about Luxembourgers.

- snip appalling bullshit -
You might want to delete that shit ASAP, or I'll actually personally report it to moderation.

You might want to delete that shit ASAP, or I'll actually personally report it to moderation.

i don't recall every saying 'snip apalling bullshit. ..

My question is - what is so great about Germany that randoms from all over the planet go ahead and identify themselves with it? :confused:

If you're referring to me, it's because my mother is German. My father is also Ukrainian, and I identify with that, too, but it doesn't come up as much because it's a slightly less... controversial... nation. And the average Australian doesn't know where it is; I usually describe it as "Russia Jr.", although most Ukrainians would fucking hate that distinction.

If my parents were French, I'd identify with France. It's that simple. I don't know how it is in Germany, but here, you identify with your ethnic background, especially if your family carries on ethnic traditions.

i don't recall every saying 'snip apalling bullshit. .. I'm not in the habit of quoting offensive posts. Kinda defeats the purpose.

*Schnipp schnapp*
You're helping someone post around a ban, and that can earn you a ban of your own or a deletion here...
Not that spreading comments like that is considered legal anyway...;)

i never said anything close to 'snip appaling bullshit' i posted that someone I just met said hi. . .

if thats not cool then I guess you are all as closeminded as I heard

i never said anything close to 'snip appaling bullshit' i posted that someone I just met said hi. . .

if thats not cool then I guess you are all as closeminded as I heardA comment like "I'm sorry my ancestors didn't finish the job" isn't something I'll keep my mind open to. Like I said before, you're posting on behalf of someone that's been banned. That is an infringement of the rules even without the glorification of genocide.

I'm still waiting to hear where I said 'snip appaling bullshit'

i don't recall every saying 'snip apalling bullshit. ..

I can't imagine the mods will be happy with you posting for a DOSed guy... there most likely was a reason for his permanent ban, and from what he told you there it's easy enough to see what it might have been.

I'm still waiting to hear where I said 'snip appaling bullshit'

*snip* is used as a way to quote a large or unquotable post.

i never said anything close to 'snip appaling bullshit' i posted that someone I just met said hi. . .

if thats not cool then I guess you are all as closeminded as I heard
My God, are you kidding me?

"Snipping" anything is done to replace the original content of the quoted post - I snipped the appalling bullshit that was the content of your post.

And I can only hope you're kidding if you tell me that you just posted that "someone you just met said hi". Actually, nevermind, I wouldn't even want to think you're kidding seeing what that would say about your sense of "humour".

I'm still waiting to hear where I said 'snip appaling bullshit'
'Snip' is an accepted way of replying to a post without quoting the entire text, presumably in this case so what you wrote wasn't repeated. The 'appaling bullshit' is a pretty accurate way of summing up what you said.

My God, are you kidding me?

"Snipping" anything is done to replace the original content of the quoted post - I snipped the appalling bullshit that was the content of your post.

And I can only hope you're kidding if you tell me that you just posted that "someone you just met said hi". Actually, nevermind, I wouldn't even want to think you're kidding seeing what that would say about your sense of "humour".

what post was so incorect that the freedoms of my country wouldn't allow it?

*edit*

hums jeprady theme

what post was so incorect that the freedoms of my country wouldn't allow it?

*roflmao
The "freedoms of your country" don't relate to the forum rules. And I'm pretty sure you broke those rules there.... you had better go and delete the post.

all I did was post that someone said they wanted me to say hi :rolleyes:

what post was so incorect that the freedoms of my country wouldn't allow it?
Words fail me.

Take your "freedoms of your country" and run out on the street and call for all Jews, homosexuals, Sinti & Roma, and political dissidents to be eradicated already - we'll see how that goes - but this is not the US, this is an internet forum with rules, and posting for a permabanned ex-user is just as forbidden as *gasp* promoting genocide. Funny, isn't it?

'Twas a joke. I know nothing about Luxembourgers.
Aha! Exposed!:p

all I did was post that someone said they wanted me to say hi :rolleyes:
Drop the naive act already, it's not very convincing, what with switching between invoking the "freedoms of your country" and claiming ignorance.

Words fail me.

Take your "freedoms of your country" and run out on the street and call for all Jews, homosexuals, Sinti & Roma, and political dissidents to be eradicated already - we'll see how that goes - but this is not the US, this is an internet forum with rules, and posting for a permabanned ex-user is just as forbidden as *gasp* promoting genocide. Funny, isn't it?

this may be not an American site, I realized that with the .co.uk. Since you apparently don't know US rules I'll tell you that I could run into the streets and say that. I'm not going to, but since you don't know that I guess I'll tell you. Neither am I promoting genicide. But I guess emotions run higher than facts, eh? Funny isn't it

this may be not an American site, I realized that with the .co.uk. Since you apparently don't know US rules I'll tell you that I could run into the streets and say that. I'm not going to, but since you don't know that I guess I'll tell you. Neither am I promoting genicide. But I guess emotions run higher than facts, eh? Funny isn't it
Oh no? Maybe you shouldn't go around relaying messages for people who do, then.
Your post has been deleted by moderation, by the way.

all I did was post that someone said they wanted me to say hi :rolleyes:And it was against the rules. That's why it was deleted.