NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: No nation is safe from religious controversy it seems. Even Canada is now facing a conundrum. I would love to know what our Canadian friends on here think their government will or should do about this.


Muslim Group Wants Christian Leader
Barred from Canada (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200607/CUL20060717a.html)


By Alison Espach
CNSNews.com Correspondent
July 17, 2006
(CNSNews.com) - An Islamic advocacy group wants Rev. Franklin Graham barred from entering Canada because of allegedly hateful statements made towards Islam. Graham's spokesman says the Evangelical minister's comments have been "misconstrued" by some Muslims.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations of Canada (CAIR-CAN) claims allowing Graham into Canada would be evidence of a "double standard." British Muslim Riyad ul-Haq was denied entry into Canada in June after being accused of inciting hatred towards Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims - a violation of Canada's so-called "hate propaganda laws."

"We do not welcome hate-mongers," said Leslie Harmer, spokesperson for Immigration Minister Monte Solberg, the official who ordered that Canadian authorities block ul-Haq from entering the country.

CAIR-CAN noted that shortly after the 9/11 attacks Graham called Islam "a very evil and a very wicked religion." The group argues that, like ul-Haq, Graham should be forbidden to come to Canada for a scheduled visit later this year.

"The comments they have made are very widely available, and there isn't a great deal of difference between the two individuals," CAIR-CAN Communications Director Halima Mautbur told Cybercast News Service.

The group is further dismayed with the government's decision, because ul-Haq promised he would not speak about anything controversial while he was in Canada.

CAIR-CAN Executive Director Karl Nickner said in a news release Thursday that "some Canadian Muslims are wondering whether a double standard is being applied."

"As Muslims and as Canadians," Nickner added, "we stand firmly against any hateful religious speech by representatives of all faiths."

But Graham, who is president of his father's Billy Graham Evangelistic Association (BGEA), previously explained that he does not hate Muslim people and only wants to speak out about crimes committed in the name of Islam.

Jeremy Blume, a spokesman for the association, said Graham would not comment further on the matter because he already responded in an opinion-editorial piece for the Wall Street Journal, clarifying statements he said the Muslim community misconstrued.

"It is not what he is about. He is about relief work, about spreading hope of Jesus Christ," Blume said. "People misconstrue when he talks about it. They think he is against Islam and people of Islam. That is why he wrote this, so people could refer to it and just be done with it so he can get back to relief work.""

In his essay, Graham said that he does not believe Muslims are evil people because of their faith, adding that he has many Muslim friends.

"While as Christians we disagree with Islamic teachings, if we obey the teachings of Jesus, we will love all Muslims," Graham wrote.

"But I decry the evil that has been done in the name of Islam, or any other faith - including Christianity," Graham continued. "I believe it is my responsibility to speak out against the terrible deeds that are committed as a result of Islamic teaching."

Despite Graham's explanation, CAIR-CAN is demanding that the Canadian government clarify its position on freedom of speech.

"We have sort of entered into an area which is creating a lot of confusion for our community given the differential treatment of these two clerics," said Mautbur. "It is incumbent on the government to provide some information to Canadians about how exactly this sort of policy of censorship is going to be used, and when it is going to be used."

Canadian officials have not responded to CAIR-CAN's complaints. Graham is still scheduled to visit Winnipeg in October.

So much for the perfect mutlicultural Canada...and so much for the idea that Muslims are the ones being picked on and that they are really...."tolerant" people who simply suffer oppression from the West.

But thats just my opinion.

So much for the perfect mutlicultural Canada...and so much for the idea that Muslims are the ones being picked on and that they are really...."tolerant" people who simply suffer oppression from the West.

But thats just my opinion.

Did you read the article?

Do you think Muslim hatemongers should be subject to a different standard than Christian hatemongers?

i can't remember the last time i heard people complaining about canada...you've got the right idea, atlantian islands.

talk about hyopcrisy...

Personally, from what has been quoted in the article, I don't think his speech is particularly hateful.

"While as Christians we disagree with Islamic teachings, if we obey the teachings of Jesus, we will love all Muslims," Graham wrote.

"But I decry the evil that has been done in the name of Islam, or any other faith - including Christianity," Graham continued. "I believe it is my responsibility to speak out against the terrible deeds that are committed as a result of Islamic teaching."

He applies the same standard to Christianity and Islam, and he is simply criticising the atrocities committed in the name of Islam, which all sane people should do. It's certainly very different to "KILL THE INFIDELS!" we see sometimes from radical Muslims.

Did you read the article?

Do you think Muslim hatemongers should be subject to a different standard than Christian hatemongers?

so just because he's a christian doesn't allow this american to complain about the people who attacked his nation...?

He applies the same standard to Christianity and Islam, and he is simply criticising the atrocities committed in the name of Islam, which all sane people should do. It's certainly very different to "KILL THE INFIDELS!" we see sometimes from radical Muslims.

Weird.... Somehow his categorization of Islam as "a very evil and a very wicked religion" doesn't fit that story.

Weird.... Somehow his categorization of Islam as "a very evil and a very wicked religion" doesn't fit that story.

Well, he is not inciting hatred against Muslims in that he still encourages Christians to "love all Muslims".

Hey, it's Canada. It will be debated by a committee for a while, and see if they can't avoid hurting anyone's feelings.

And then they'll deliberate some more, until everyone just gives up and turns on the hockey game.

Thumbs up Canada. Good move. I like any country that actively works to keep Christians out.

Hey, it's Canada. It will be debated by a committee for a while, and see if they can't avoid hurting anyone's feelings.

And then they'll deliberate some more, until everyone just gives up and turns on the hockey game.
LOL! And don't forget the beer, either! :p

Did you read the article?

Do you think Muslim hatemongers should be subject to a different standard than Christian hatemongers?

Funny thing is, Reverend Graham isn't a muslim hatemonger.

Thumbs up Canada. Good move. I like any country that actively works to keep Christians out.

Uh dude, He's still scheduled to speak in Canada. They haven't kept him out.

LOL! And don't forget the beer, either! :p

Did someone forget the beer?!?!

*sharpens hockey stick*

*snip*
Christian hate-mongers should be barred from entering, too. If that preacher is fucktard enough to hold prejudiced views like the sweeping generalizations he allegedly made, we don't need his kind here.

However, our laws are against speech and actions. If he comes over and doesn't say a word against Islam, then there's no problem. There is no such thing as a thought crime.

I saw ban him. Let's keep the idiots out as much as possible, imo.

Did we succeed in banning Eminem too? I can't remember.

Christian hate-mongers should be barred from entering, too. If that preacher is fucktard enough to hold prejudiced views like the sweeping generalizations he allegedly made, we don't need his kind here.

However, our laws are against speech and actions. If he comes over and doesn't say a word against Islam, then there's no problem. There is no such thing as a thought crime.

He doesn't have a problem with Islam, just the atrocities committed in the name of Islam or any other faith.

*Waits for someone to cross the blue line with their head down!! :D

He doesn't have a problem with Islam, just the atrocities committed in the name of Islam or any other faith.
IF it is gonna be a hate speech, he can stay home. :eek:

Did someone forget the beer?!?!

*sharpens hockey stick*
Hehehe! I like the way you think! :D

He doesn't have a problem with Islam, just the atrocities committed in the name of Islam or any other faith.

Islam is "a very evil and a very wicked religion."

Nope, no mention of the atrocities comitted in the name of Islam or any other faith. Just a baseless, prejudiced, sweeping generalization that puts all Muslims into the same basket.

If he says things such as these here, I will be the first to clap at all the lawsuits and criminal charges that will rain upon his sorry, bigoted ass.

IF it is gonna be a hate speech, he can stay home. :eek:

Since when is condemning religious violence hate speech? :confused:

Did we succeed in banning Eminem too? I can't remember.

Are you joking? Did Canadians really ban Emineme? If your not joking that just settles it..Canadians are vaginas with legs.

What will the Canadian gov't do?
Nothing.

What should the Canadian gov't do?
Nothing.

Islam is "a very evil and a very wicked religion."

Nope, no mention of the atrocities comitted in the name of Islam or any other faith. Just a baseless, prejudiced, sweeping generalization that puts all Muslims into the same basket.

If he says things such as these here, I will be the first to clap at all the lawsuits and criminal charges that will rain upon his sorry, bigoted ass.

And where prey tell did he say that?

And where prey tell did he say that?
Someone posted an un-sited quote and then the christian/religion haters have jumped on that as "gospel".

Someone posted an un-sited quote and then the christian/religion haters have jumped on that as "gospel".

Why doesn't that surprise me?

Someone posted an un-sited quote and then the christian/religion haters have jumped on that as "gospel".
Right. Reread my posts and it should be clear that I am perfectly aware that this is speculation. I didn't say "ban him, OMFG!!11!!1!!Eleven!". I said if he did in fact hold such a discourse, then he'd be unwelcome to say that here.

We ban muslims who promote hate, we should ban christians who promote hate as well, if there's any thruth to the allegations. I'd be the first one to applaud a ban on Fred Phelps or any other fucktard of the sort, for example. If the allegations are true, then that christian guy can stay in his own country.

Someone posted an un-sited quote and then the christian/religion haters have jumped on that as "gospel".

You mean this un-cited quote:

"CAIR-CAN noted that shortly after the 9/11 attacks Graham called Islam "a very evil and a very wicked religion." The group argues that, like ul-Haq, Graham should be forbidden to come to Canada for a scheduled visit later this year."

You mean this un-cited quote:

"CAIR-CAN noted that shortly after the 9/11 attacks Graham called Islam "a very evil and a very wicked religion." The group argues that, like ul-Haq, Graham should be forbidden to come to Canada for a scheduled visit later this year."

Now if they can actually prove that he said those very same words then maybe they'll have a case. Until such time, it is just an allegation.

Uh dude, He's still scheduled to speak in Canada. They haven't kept him out.
He's free to keep whatever schedule he wants, that doesn't mean that he'll be allowed in or not.

Uh dude, He's still scheduled to speak in Canada. They haven't kept him out.
I didnt say they did, I said they tried. Thats all that matters, to show effort in keeping Christians out.

Now if they can actually prove that he said those very same words then maybe they'll have a case. Until such time, it is just an allegation.
Our point is that anyone who holds such a discourse here is gonna be punished. Whether he said so before or not, if he comes in Canada and repeats that, he's in for criminal charges.

I didnt say they did, I said they tried. Thats all that matters, to show effort in keeping Christians out.

And people claim that Canada is a tolerant nation. Seems to me they are becoming quite intolerant if the keep Graham out for doing nothing but speaking out against religious violence of all kinds.

I didnt say they did, I said they tried. Thats all that matters, to show effort in keeping Christians out.
It's not about keeping Christians out. It's about keeping hate-mongering fundamentalists out. All of them. Without bothering about their religion or denomination.

Your average, run-of-the-mill, not-hateful Christian is still very much welcome in our frozen wastes.

Our point is that anyone who holds such a discourse here is gonna be punished. Whether he said so before or not, if he comes in Canada and repeats that, he's in for criminal charges.

Even though he didn't say any such thing? Goes to show the Free speech is alive and well in Canada.

And people claim that Canada is a tolerant nation. Seems to me they are becoming quite intolerant if the keep Graham out for doing nothing but speaking out against religious violence of all kinds.
Which is not at all what he's doing if the allegations are true. You repeating it won't make it any more true.

They'll review the allegations, and if they're proven to be true, he'll be kept out. If they're unfounded, he'll be welcome. That's all.

Which is not at all what he's doing if the allegations are true. You repeating it won't make it any more true.

They'll review the allegations, and if they're proven to be true, he'll be kept out. If they're unfounded, he'll be welcome. That's all.

He'll be welcomed because all he's done is speak out against religious violence. This group has no case.

Even though he didn't say any such thing? Goes to show the Free speech is alive and well in Canada.
Don't insult my intelligence, Corny. I've stated quite clearly that if he hasn't held such a discourse, he should be let in. If he has, he'll be kept out.

Stop trying to make this seem like a repressive measure from the Canadian government to limit freedom. If you want limitations on freedom, look into your own country's so-called anti-terrorist measures.

The law against hate speech is a sensible one, and has the support of most of the Canadian population.

He'll be welcomed because all he's done is speak out against religious violence. This group has no case.
You don't have anything either. Your opinion does not have any more credibility than theirs.

The competent authorities will look inot this, and decide accordingly.

Now if they can actually prove that he said those very same words then maybe they'll have a case. Until such time, it is just an allegation.

It's in direct quotes. He said it. That's from a news source. They check their work. If it were false, there would be a libel charge on their ass already.

Corny, far-right apoligist or not, at some point facts become facts, whether or not they don't reveal what you want.

It's in direct quotes. He said it. That's from a news source. They check their work. If it were false, there would be a libel charge on their ass already.

Corny, far-right apoligist or not, at some point facts become facts, whether or not they don't reveal what you want.
The news source didn't quote Graham... Cair-CAN did.... and that's a big difference....

Show me a news source that quotes Graham saying that and then, as Corny has already said, Cair-CAN would have a case.

The news source didn't quote Graham... Cair-CAN did.... and that's a big difference....

Show me a news source that quotes Graham saying that and then, as Corny has already said, Cair-CAN would have a case.

From PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week616/cover.html

SEVERSON: Falwell joins a growing chorus of Christian Right commentators and ministers condemning Islam. The Reverend Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham, has repeatedly called Islam evil.

From Newsday: http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-oppin114813207jul11,0,6468462.column?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines

His son Franklin has continued some of that same nuanced approach to politics. Franklin gave the invocation for Bush's first inauguration, and he has not been afraid to speak his mind about international issues, as when he said, in reference to terrorism, "The God of Islam is not the same God of the Christian or the Judeo-Christian faith. It is a different God, and I believe a very evil and a very wicked religion." One unavoidable element of belief, to be sure, is that if you believe you know The Way, it's hard to think that other Ways are equally valid. Indeed, just about every religion can be found speaking invidiously of just about every other religion.

I suppose that these are just more "false" statements? :rolleyes:

We oughtta just throw one Christian to a pack of lions once a year and finally give 'em what they want - some actual basis for fear of persecution. Imagine how fulfilling it would be for Christendom. Just like in those movies with Charlton Heston. And think of how many dull hours on wintry nights spent contemplating the Lord'll be displaced by countless hours on wintry nights spent speculating on who will be the next to go.

From PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week616/cover.html



From Newsday: http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-oppin114813207jul11,0,6468462.column?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines



I suppose that these are just more "false" statements? :rolleyes:
Fair enough.... Canada should prevent Graham from entering and speaking in Canada.

I'd like to point out to both sides of this argument that Canada has no actual involvemnt.
A group ASKED Canada to refuse Graham entry.
That's not quite the same as the Canadian Gov't throwing up roadblocks when they heard Billy Graham's son was coming to town.

I'd like to point out to both sides of this argument that Canada has no actual involvemnt.
A group ASKED Canada to refuse Graham entry.
That's not quite the same as the Canadian Gov't throwing up roadblocks when they heard Billy Graham's son was coming to town.
Canada has the laws that can be used to deny him entry. THose laws have been applied in the past towards hate-mongers of other religions. Those laws should be used against christian hate-mongers as well.

No double standards. I hate double-standards.

From PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week616/cover.html



From Newsday: http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-oppin114813207jul11,0,6468462.column?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines



I suppose that these are just more "false" statements? :rolleyes:

Who gives a shit...I sat at a dinner party and heard Former Mayor of New York Koch say the say exact things..except he made a whole speech about it.
And you know what, Koch and the Rev. are both right on about this. I agree.


And its pretty lame that you guys care so much anyway..I see MILLIONS of NS leftists say how much they hate Christianity and I see even more saying they hate the Judeo Christian God because of how violent he is and blah blah blah..the Abrahamic religions are violent ..yada yada yada.

Its stuff we see here everyday, dont know why this is such a big deal...this is not news.

Canada has the laws that can be used to deny him entry. THose laws have been applied in the past towards hate-mongers of other religions. Those laws should be used against christian hate-mongers as well.

No double standards. I hate double-standards.
Exactly... Canada has it's own set of laws. Like them or not, since Graham has indeed committed what Canada has determined as hate speach/mongering then Canada should treat him as any other hate speach/monger.

Exactly... Canada has it's own set of laws. Like them or not, since Graham has indeed committed what Canada has determined as hate speach/mongering then Canada should treat him as any other hate speach/monger.
Precisely. He shouldn't get a free "get out of jail" card just because he's a Christian. Hate-speech is condemnable, and punishable. He must get the same treatments as the muslim fundies who preach hate towards christian.

The only way we'll defuse that war of religions is by treating everyone on an equal footing, and stop tolerating shows of ignorance and prejudice between faiths.

I think canada should invade Southern Lebenon and beat some peace into hezbolla .

Canada has the laws that can be used to deny him entry. THose laws have been applied in the past towards hate-mongers of other religions. Those laws should be used against christian hate-mongers as well.

No double standards. I hate double-standards.
Well, except for the minor fact that Mr. Graham isn't a "hate-monger," I agree with you.

Who gives a shit...I sat at a dinner party and heard Former Mayor of New York Koch say the say exact things..except he made a whole speech about it.
And you know what, Koch and the Rev. are both right on about this. I agree.


And its pretty lame that you guys care so much anyway..I see MILLIONS of NS leftists say how much they hate Christianity and I see even more saying they hate the Judeo Christian God because of how violent he is and blah blah blah..the Abrahamic religions are violent ..yada yada yada.

Its stuff we see here everyday, dont know why this is such a big deal...this is not news.
I give a shit. And hate-mongerers need not bother coming here. The links provided
From PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionande...616/cover.html

From Newsday: http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/...ints-headlines
clearly reveal Mr. Graham as such; therefore, he is not welcome.

End of story. Enjoy my gift.



*edit: Eut, look up the links and re-think your previous post.

I give a shit. And hate-mongerers need not bother coming here. The links provided

clearly reveal Mr. Graham as such; therefore, he is not welcome.

End of story. Enjoy my gift.

*edit: Eut, look up the links and re-think your previous post.
Neither of those links work.

Neither of those links work.
That's funny, they worked for me.

That's funny, they worked for me.
That's 'cause you're speshul. :D

And people claim that Canada is a tolerant nation. Seems to me they are becoming quite intolerant if the keep Graham out for doing nothing but speaking out against religious violence of all kinds.
I could care less about tolerance, I just don't like Christians.

Islam is "a very evil and a very wicked religion."

The Islamic guy was excluded because he'd said hatefl thinkgs about Christians and Jews. Those are people. This remark only denigrates a religion.

There's a difference in kind, there.

I could care less about tolerance, I just don't like Christians.
And you're exactly the kind of person that Canada is trying to keep out.

Funny thing is, Reverend Graham isn't a muslim hatemonger.

That's Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwell's jobs. :D

That's 'cause you're speshul. :D

If you check them in the origional post, they should work. I guess the quotes somehow screw up the links.

Who gives a shit...I sat at a dinner party and heard Former Mayor of New York Koch say the say exact things..except he made a whole speech about it.
And you know what, Koch and the Rev. are both right on about this. I agree.


And its pretty lame that you guys care so much anyway..I see MILLIONS of NS leftists say how much they hate Christianity and I see even more saying they hate the Judeo Christian God because of how violent he is and blah blah blah..the Abrahamic religions are violent ..yada yada yada.

Its stuff we see here everyday, dont know why this is such a big deal...this is not news.

I freely admit to having a strong dislike of the Judeo-Christian God. That doesn't mean that I beleive his followers to be stupid and evil. I do beleive that there are people who do stupid and evil things claiming that they are "In his name", but I don't use hate language about their religion.

It's also a matter of not being a hypocrite. If Canada keeps Muslims out for hating christians, but doesn't return the favor, they are showing a bias. A bias is wrong.

Islam is no more-or-less violent than any other religion. We just do a bad job at looking at it with an unbiased eye.

It's in direct quotes. He said it. That's from a news source. They check their work. If it were false, there would be a libel charge on their ass already.

Corny, far-right apoligist or not, at some point facts become facts, whether or not they don't reveal what you want.
What world do you live in? :confused:

Did you read the article?

Do you think Muslim hatemongers should be subject to a different standard than Christian hatemongers?

Quite true. Although its bound to happen.

What world do you live in? :confused:

One where the big players can drop a libel suit at the press of a phone button. How about you?

Did you read the article?

Do you think Muslim hatemongers should be subject to a different standard than Christian hatemongers?

Given that we haven't seen the transcripts from the speeches made by this particular reverand, I think its a little soon to pass judgement. However if he is saying in his sermons what he says he is saying (IE speeking out against evils perpertrated in the name of a faith as opposed to saying that a faith is evil) then I think he is within his rights.

Canada has the laws that can be used to deny him entry. THose laws have been applied in the past towards hate-mongers of other religions. Those laws should be used against christian hate-mongers as well.

No double standards. I hate double-standards.

We can only call double standards if they are both preeching hate. So far, we havent seen the transcripts of either of their sermons so I fail to see that we can prove eithers case.

I think Canada should arrange a public, live-aired debate between Franklin Graham and Riyad ul-Haq. ;)


Well, christians, jews and muslims worship the same God (albeit in different ways) but while Islam in itself isn't more violent (quite the opposite in fact, whic only makes the extremists perversion of it all the worse), the extreme muslims that advocate violence in God's name have a larger influence that is less tempered by laws advocating moderation in the countries where they reside

A sign of this I'd say is the relatively recent emregence of an international peace organization within islam. Up until then, Islam had no (to my knowledge) organization that worked towards peace.


(There is one though. http://www.mpfweb.org/
The way forward (http://www.forusa.org/fellowship/sept-oct-04/editorial.html))

Hey, it's Canada. It will be debated by a committee for a while, and see if they can't avoid hurting anyone's feelings.

And then they'll deliberate some more, until everyone just gives up and turns on the hockey game.
And that is why I want to live in Canada. And I'm not even kidding.

It's in direct quotes. He said it. That's from a news source. They check their work. If it were false, there would be a libel charge on their ass already.

Ok then, find me those statements that are not quoted by this group. I want to see Graham's exact words to this from him himself and not words he allegedly said by a muslim group who was pissed off that a fellow muslim was barred from Canada.

Corny, far-right apoligist or not, at some point facts become facts, whether or not they don't reveal what you want.

If they are facts then you shoud have a link to Graham saying such things. Until you provide it, all it is is an allegation.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm having trouble seeing the downside to reducing the amount of Billy Graham-ism in one's country. :P

From PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week616/cover.html



From Newsday: http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-oppin114813207jul11,0,6468462.column?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines



I suppose that these are just more "false" statements? :rolleyes:

All I asked was for proof that he really said it. No need to be sarcastic with me. They do have a case to bar him.

Next time someone asks you for a link, provide it without getting an attitude.

That's Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwell's jobs. :D

I don't like to speak ill of other christians but those 2 need to be committed.

Thumbs up Canada. Good move. I like any country that actively works to keep Christians out.
Move to Iran then.

One where the big players can drop a libel suit at the press of a phone button. How about you?
the one where the press routinely get it wrong and where they have no problem lying about famous people. You buy the Inquirer or Star a lot?:confused: