NationStates Jolt Archive

What if nuclear weapons were never discovered? Would the world be a better place? I do accept the fact that, seeing as they do exist, in the modern world they are tools for peace, as long as all the nations in a given dispute have them, but how would the world be different if, for some reason, mankind just never unlocked the secrets of turning an atom into a weopen, or if you prefer decided it was too unthinkable?

Russia and the United States would have ended up having to invade Japan, which would have been a messy affair, as the Japanese were prepared to fight to the death. About a million American and Russian soldiers probably would have died and Japan would have been crippled beyond recovery. However, is it possible that in all the bloodshed and carnage, the Soviets and the Americans could have formed a sort of bond, a shared experience that would allow us both to not only emerge from World War II as superpowers, but as allies?

Think about it, two superpowers cooperating with the UN would eliminate the need for nuclear weapons. I mean, it’s not like anything that’s actually useful invented by NASA during the space race couldn’t have been invented by someone else.

Think about it, no Korean War, no Vietnam War, no Darfur, no War on Terror...

I've been thinking

Stop the presses!

:p

Okay, seriously. Cold war was about the two conflicting styles of economy. I don't think I need to go into what they were here. The Cold War might have been averted if either nation converted to the other's type of economy. Otherwise, it might not have been as tense as it was with nuclear weapons, but I imagine we'd see a great deal more bio and chemical weapons developed.

If nuclear weapons weren't discovered, we would have found other ways to kill eachother. Not to mention, our modern technology would be completely different.
If we only focus on treating the symptoms, we'll never cure the disease.

- Computers would not have taken off as quickly.
- The space race would never have occurred.
- We'd have no nuclear power, fission or fusion.
- It'd have eventually come to war anyway. The Cold War was about socialism and capitalism. The US and the USSR could never have been long-term allies without one of them changing political and economic model, because the two hate each other and are incompatible.

Two principles: You can't permanently treat the symptoms without curing the root problem, and war is the mother of invention.

The deterrence effect of nuclear weaponry has probably saved countless millions of lives. The risk, of course, is that they are actually used. As long as they are not, their effect is mostly positive; if they are, the results will probably be so catastrophic as to make their positive effects negligible by comparison.

We'd be just as afraid of catapulted cows. Actually, I AM afraid of being in the way of a catapulted cow.

Think about it, no Korean War, no Vietnam War, no Darfur, no War on Terror...

Dear New Undeland,

I fully agree with you. I hate that the US developed nuclear weapons. :(

If the US never existed, the world would have far fewer problems today. :(

We'd be just as afraid of catapulted cows. Actually, I AM afraid of being in the way of a catapulted cow.

Run away! Run away!

Think about it, no Korean War, no Vietnam War, no Darfur, no War on Terror...

those would've all still happened

the Cold War was not over nukes, but rather over economical systems, all the proxy wars would've happened.

If anythign it would've been worse, as open war without the threat of nuclear warfare was a possibility

World War III is much more probable if nukes hadent been discovered.

Dear New Undeland,

I fully agree with you. I hate that the US developed nuclear weapons. :(

If the US never existed, the world would have far fewer problems today. :(
The Germans, the Americans and the Russians all attempted to develop nuclear weapons. We just got them first.
Computers would not have taken off as quickly.
Why ever not?
The space race would never have occurred.
So?
It'd have eventually come to war anyway. The Cold War was about socialism and capitalism. The US and the USSR could never have been long-term allies without one of them changing political and economic model, because the two hate each other and are incompatible.
I’ve never accepted that. It was about conflicting interests. The different economic systems (which weren’t really different, just the styles of government were) made it an easier sell.
Two principles: You can't permanently treat the symptoms without curing the root problem, and war is the mother of invention.
A powerful UN would have treated the root problem.

Dear New Undeland,

I fully agree with you. I hate that the US developed nuclear weapons. :(

If the US never existed, the world would have far fewer problems today. :(

You're insane. The US was the first fully free and just country, the first real non-authoritarian state, in history, and the most successful since Rome. We've saved Europe from collapsing in on itself twice, rebuilt it after we saved it, and have been saving various other regions and countries for a century. We helped to break up the authoritarian, mercantilist-imperialist British Empire and thus aided the freeing of dozens of nations and peoples from foreign tyranny. Later, we saved the world from near-total control twice, by the Nazis and the USSR. We've singlehandedly pumped inumerable amounts of economic value into the global market, increased standards of living and per capita wealth everywhere, kickstarted the global transition to democracy and away from tyranny, and have provided hundreds of billions of dollars in pure aid, the trillions in economic development aside. We founded the UN. (though that is not much of an achievement nowadays)

The achievements and benefits of the US are almost an endless list. I don't think we should be a Pax Americana or the world's arrogant policeman-cum-spoiled-brat-with-nukes, but one thing is certainly true - the world owes us big time.

The Germans, the Americans and the Russians all attempted to develop nuclear weapons. We just got them first.

Why ever not?

So?

I’ve never accepted that. It was about conflicting interests. The different economic systems (which weren’t really different, just the styles of government were) made it an easier sell.

A powerful UN would have treated the root problem.

You've yet to justify that a lack of nuclear weapons would make the UN more powerful, or, for that matter, that it would resolve a conflict of interests.

And yes, it was about different economic systems. Hence Vietnam. Do you really think we would have gone in if it hadn't been for the fact that the North Vietnamese were commies?

You're insane. The US was the first fully free and just country, the first real non-authoritarian state, in history, and the most successful since Rome. We've saved Europe from collapsing in on itself twice, rebuilt it after we saved it, and have been saving various other regions and countries for a century. We helped to break up the authoritarian, mercantilist-imperialist British Empire and thus aided the freeing of dozens of nations and peoples from foreign tyranny. Later, we saved the world from near-total control twice, by the Nazis and the USSR. We've singlehandedly pumped inumerable amounts of economic value into the global market, increased standards of living and per capita wealth everywhere, kickstarted the global transition to democracy and away from tyranny, and have provided hundreds of billions of dollars in pure aid, the trillions in economic development aside. We founded the UN. (though that is not much of an achievement nowadays)

The achievements and benefits of the US are almost an endless list. I don't think we should be a Pax Americana or the world's arrogant policeman-cum-spoiled-brat-with-nukes, but one thing is certainly true - the world owes us big time.
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Okay, all of you, settle down. This is not a pro/anti America thread. This is a what would have happened with no nukes thread.

Nuclear weapons were the savior of civilization.

You're insane. The US was the first fully free and just country, the first real non-authoritarian state, in history, and the most successful since Rome. We've saved Europe from collapsing in on itself twice, rebuilt it after we saved it, and have been saving various other regions and countries for a century. We helped to break up the authoritarian, mercantilist-imperialist British Empire and thus aided the freeing of dozens of nations and peoples from foreign tyranny. Later, we saved the world from near-total control twice, by the Nazis and the USSR. We've singlehandedly pumped inumerable amounts of economic value into the global market, increased standards of living and per capita wealth everywhere, kickstarted the global transition to democracy and away from tyranny, and have provided hundreds of billions of dollars in pure aid, the trillions in economic development aside. We founded the UN. (though that is not much of an achievement nowadays)

The achievements and benefits of the US are almost an endless list. I don't think we should be a Pax Americana or the world's arrogant policeman-cum-spoiled-brat-with-nukes, but one thing is certainly true - the world owes us big time.

Rome's politics were hardly successful. Except for Octavian. That guys does not count.

Why ever not?

Computers had their genesis in WW2, but their development in the Cold War. Military funds and necessity initially drove virtually every technological revolution of this century.

So?

Space has enormous economic value, from the standpoints of resources, territory, and functional use. The total energy stored in the entire Earth is a tiny fraction of that present in the solar system, as are the matter resources. The territory is vast. Unique possibilities in manufacturing, technology, etc. are present in space. It holds literally endless value. Not to mention that our species is over, caput, if an asteroid strikes, the icecaps melt, the poles flip, or any of a trillion other disasters. We need to shift eggs out of the basket, and space travel is the only way to do that.

I’ve never accepted that. It was about conflicting interests. The different economic systems (which weren’t really different, just the styles of government were) made it an easier sell.

If the fundamental political-economic paradigm was the same, there wouldn't have been the tensions there were. What do you think the Truman Doctrine, the Red Scare, and the 'hot flashes' of Vietnam and Korea were about? The expansion of two incompatible ideologies. Conflicting interests is right. Every country that fell to one was to the detriment of the other, both in terms of the two superpowers and the two ideologies they represented.

A powerful UN would have treated the root problem.

The UN only arose after the nuke was developed and it became apparent that another World War could very easily end in species extinction. It wouldn't have developed, at the very least not so soon and with less support, without the threat of nuclear war making it a necessity.

Without nuclear weapons, I believe that the cold war would have rapidly become a hot war, probaably over Korea. Many millions would have been killed by conventional weapons. After all, conventional weapons have killed far more people than Nuclear.

How would the world be different today? I highly doubt that America or the USSR would have remained superpowers for long. They most likely would fight each other to a standstill, and the war would peter out after both squandered their economies fighting it.

Rome's politics were hardly successful. Except for Octavian. That guys does not count.

The fact that they ruled most of a continent for contiguous centuries, expanded rapidly and successfully with perfect organization, and were extremely economically powerful means nothing? They didn't rule as much territory as Genghis Khan, but he kept his for his own life, and that's it. China ruled quite a bit of territory and were highly civilized - but they didn't expand or change much, just ruled the territory they had, and were conquered by the Mongols anyway.

Rome was arguably the single most successful civilization in human history - their military, their expansion, their wealth, their system - it was amazing. Not to mention their legacy - they live on in the entire Western world, which is basically universally descended from them. Language, legal code, etc. They were the dominant force in the world for a very, very long time.

Tic-Tat-Tow......Nobody Wins.

Thats why we are all still here today!!!

Tic-Tat-Tow......Nobody Wins.

Thats why we are all still here today!!!

The only way to win is not to play....

Nuclear weapons were the savior of civilization.
I don't disagree with that.
Space has enormous economic value, from the standpoints of resources, territory, and functional use. The total energy stored in the entire use is a tiny fraction of that present in the solar system, as are the matter resources. The territory is vast. Unique possibilities in manufacturing, technology, etc. are present in space. It holds literally endless value. Not to mention that our species is over, caput, if an asteroid strikes, the icecaps melt, the poles flip, or any of a trillion other disasters. We need to shift eggs out of the basket, and space travel is the only way to do that.You actually believe there’s a future in space travel? You’ve been watching too much Star Trek. The Earth is humanity’s cradle and its prison.

What evidence do you have to support that assertion? If there's the economic impetus to go, and the productive capacity and technology to get there, we'll head out. And all of those things exist and are getting better all the time.

Do you really think that it's our destiny to rot here on Earth, consuming every last resource and getting progressively more fucked-up until we drive ourselves to extinction or finally succumb to the planet-wrecking natural disaster that statistically speaking is always just around the corner? I don't. As technological advancement accelerates progressively faster, productivity increases massively, and new material and energy resources are needed more and more, private industry will more and more begin doing business in space. Shortly after, as the cost comes down and technology continues to advance faster and faster, we'll begin expanding in earnest as a species.

And for the record I can barely stand Star Trek.

What evidence do you have to support that assertion? If there's the economic impetus to go, and the productive capacity and technology to get there, we'll head out. And all of those things exist and are getting better all the time.

Do you really think that it's our destiny to rot here on Earth, consuming every last resource and getting progressively more fucked-up until we drive ourselves to extinction or finally succumb to the planet-wrecking natural disaster that statistically speaking is always just around the corner? I don't. As technological advancement accelerates progressively faster, productivity increases massively, and new material and energy resources are needed more and more, private industry will more and more begin doing business in space. Shortly after, as the cost comes down and technology continues to advance faster and faster, we'll begin expanding in earnest as a species.

And for the record I can barely stand Star Trek.
Mass space travel is impossible. Space is too large and hostile, and human lives are too short and fragile.
Human beings will go extinct on Earth, as every other species has done or will eventually do.

I’ve been thinking…
OMG RUN AWAY! :eek:

The problems can be gotten around. Safety can be mostly assured given sufficient technology, resources, and productive capability, almost all of which are either here already or just over the horizon. Not to mention that we don't need to move everyone - just a significant number who want to. A near-infinite number can be supported, and as it becomes more attractive plenty of people will sign on.

Later, biological compatibility won't be an issue - we'll be a predominantly digital/machine civilization. You may be right in one thing - organic, biological, baseline humanity may go extinct.

We'd be just as afraid of catapulted cows. Actually, I AM afraid of being in the way of a catapulted cow.

Personally, I'm afraid of Trojan rabbits...

Mass space travel is impossible. Space is too large and hostile, and human lives are too short and fragile.
Human beings will go extinct on Earth, as every other species has done or will eventually do.
Gee! That's so optimistic I just wanna crawl off somewhere and die! :rolleyes:

I get the feeling Neo is a nihilist....

I get the feeling Neo is a nihilist....

You're quick.

He's been like this for as long as I've seen him in action.

For the record, the Space Race was absolutely useless in terms of getting us into space. OK so we got a dozen men on the moon. Big whoop. Rather than develop a stable and useful platform for space travel (and yes we have the Space Shuttle, it needs a successor and fast. I don't see one, do you?) we cobbled together something a micron faster than the opponent then said "we beat you to this" then went on to the next arbitrary hurdle rather than setting out a way of making the whole thing more efficient.

*sigh* I've always seen the Cold War as a waste of time, whatever the necessities of it we spent far more time on dick comparison than on acheiving anything with a wider goal.

OMG RUN AWAY! :eek:

Heh. I beat you to it.

For the record, the Space Race was absolutely useless in terms of getting us into space. OK so we got a dozen men on the moon. Big whoop. Rather than develop a stable and useful platform for space travel (and yes we have the Space Shuttle, it needs a successor and fast. I don't see one, do you?) we cobbled together something a micron faster than the opponent then said "we beat you to this" then went on to the next arbitrary hurdle rather than setting out a way of making the whole thing more efficient.

Government will never do it - inefficiency is practically part of their job description. It's in private industry's very capable hands at this point, which is why we need to make it easier for them, and stop wasting money, by privatising NASA and selling it for scrap to private spaceflight companies, and using a fraction of the freed-up funding to subsidize those companies for a decade or so.

Russia and the United States would have ended up having to invade Japan, which would have been a messy affair, as the Japanese were prepared to fight to the death.

Actually probably not, as Japan had made overtures concerning surrender through the Soviets, but they had become lost in red tape and thus nobody in any position of power knew that a less bloody outcome could be possible.

Computers had their genesis in WW2...

Does the name Charles Babbage ring any bells?

The achievements and benefits of the US are almost an endless list. I don't think we should be a Pax Americana or the world's arrogant policeman-cum-spoiled-brat-with-nukes, but one thing is certainly true - the world owes us big time.

The world owes you nothing.

Heh. I beat you to it.
:p

Government will never do it - inefficiency is practically part of their job description. It's in private industry's very capable hands at this point, which is why we need to make it easier for them, and stop wasting money, by privatising NASA and selling it for scrap to private spaceflight companies, and using a fraction of the freed-up funding to subsidize those companies for a decade or so.
http://www.virgingalactic.com/ :D