NationStates Jolt Archive

Hezbollah sharply rejected talk of a cease-fire Monday, accusing international proposals for the end of violence a ploy to help Israel continue striking Lebanon.

"The international envoys have conveyed Israeli conditions. These conditions are rejected," said Hezbollah legislator Hussein Haj Hassan. "We accept what secures our country's interest and pride and dignity and not to submit to Israeli conditions," he said on al-Jazeera television.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203908,00.html

Looks like Hezbollah doesn't want peace after all as they promise more rocket attacks. Goes to show you cannot negotiate with terrorists.

They don’t, but I’m sure the families of the two hundred dead civilians do.

yes, one wonders how getting steam-rolled by the Israeli army is in the best interests of Lebanon.

They are likely correct though that no one has discussed Lebanese terms for a ceasefire... but then again, that's what happens when you start a fight you can't finish.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203908,00.html

Looks like Hezbollah doesn't want peace after all as they promise more rocket attacks. Goes to show you cannot negotiate with terrorists.

If anyone's surprised by this, thump yourself. Hezbollah want to goad Israel into more attacks ehich create more dead, more injured and more resentment.

And if Israel reoccupy Lebanon then hezbollah becomes a legitemate force again (their charter was to kick the Israelis out of Lebanon, they want to continue existing because, by now most of them are professional revolutionaries...)

So why is the Israeli government playing into their hands?
What terms were offered to Hezbollah?

Seriously, I would love it if you guys would post some of your reasoning on the thread What are the motives behind Israel's present actions?.
I think you would have a lot to contribute.

So why is the Israeli government playing into their hands?
What terms were offered to Hezbollah?

Basically hand over the soldiers or else. Hezbollah is making a serious mistake in rejecting talks for a cease-fire.

Seriously, I would love it if you guys would post some of your reasoning on the thread What are the motives behind Israel's present actions?.
I think you would have a lot to contribute.

They want their soldiers back and they want the attacks to stop now.

Basically hand over the soldiers or else. Hezbollah is making a serious mistake in rejecting talks for a cease-fire.



They want their soldiers back and they want the attacks to stop now.

Corneliu, has it ever occurred to you that someone acts for a deeper motive than they themselves proclaim?

It's nice to think that people really do only want what they claim but it'd put the advertising industry out of business the moment it was tried...

Basically hand over the soldiers or else. Hezbollah is making a serious mistake in rejecting talks for a cease-fire.

It was? You've seen the text? Could you show me the link?
I suspect it was something that was totally unacceptable because the Israeli government is not acting like a side that wants a cease-fire, as most of its statements in response to UN and G8 press releases have showed.


They want their soldiers back and they want the attacks to stop now.

Really?
You are utterly sure?
Because I keep posting several reasons why this statement does not match the actions of the Israeli government and you keep avoiding posting any reasoned arguement to disprove mine and, when I ask you to, you ignore it or move to another thread.

I am genuinely interested in what you have to say, provided there are reasons to back up your statements. If you are right and my reasoning is flawed then prove it.

Please.

Corneliu, has it ever occurred to you that someone acts for a deeper motive than they themselves proclaim?

It's nice to think that people really do only want what they claim but it'd put the advertising industry out of business the moment it was tried...

Ok truth be told, they want Hamas destroyed as well as Hezbollah but they'll settle for having their soldiers back and the attacks to stop.

Ok truth be told, they want Hamas destroyed as well as Hezbollah but they'll settle for having their soldiers back and the attacks to stop.

*sound of the point whizzing about 10 feet above Corneliu's head and smacking into Inconvenient Truths (who has plenty already but he showed up just after you did)*

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203908,00.html

Looks like Hezbollah doesn't want peace after all as they promise more rocket attacks. Goes to show you cannot negotiate with terrorists.
They want Israel wiped off the map. Haven't you heard? :eek:

Ok truth be told, they want Hamas destroyed as well as Hezbollah but they'll settle for having their soldiers back and the attacks to stop.

Well, we will start with Hamas. I don't think that there is anything larger beyond Israel's actions in Gaza other than the normal motivations in that area.

On to Hezbollah.

Attacking the targets it has hit in Lebanon will do very little to hinder Hezbollah. The fact that the movement was started and thrived in an environment of Israeli occupation indicates that lobbing bombs and shells over the border will achieve very little in terms of actually damaging it.
Conclusion: If several years of on the ground occupation by the IDF could not defeat Hezbollah then the current scale of campaign will fail as well.

Israel has asked that the Lebanese Government disband Hezbollah and occupy the southern region of Lebanon. Simultaneously Israel has targeted the Lebanese army, all routes the Lebanese army could use to attack Hezbollah and all mechanisms that could be used to mobilise the army.
Conclusion: Israel has no interest in the Lebanese Government disarming Hezbollah.

The IDF has continued to hit areas with notable civilian concentrations. These attacks have, more often then not, missed any Hezbollah and instead killed a number of innocent civilians. The civilian victims of Operation 'Just Reward' have no real influence over the militias that hold them, while the militias themselves are thrive on the media coverage those deaths receive. It is possible that acts such as the destruction of Beirut airport and yesterday's killing of yet more civilians might divide Hezbullah and its supporters from the rest of the country, but only at the risk of triggering another civil war and creating a vacuum that Israel's enemies in Syria and Iran will find easier to exploit.
Conclusion: Israel is seeking to achieve a goal other than a stable and peaceful region.

Operation Just Reward is clearly an 'off the shelf' plan which means that it has a very clear, very specific set of goals set a substantial period of time before the recent series of events. To me, the IDF strategy seems to be hinting towards a more strategic initiative.
Conclusion: Israel is either seeking to occupy parts of Lebanon once more or it is seeking an engagement with a different nation/nations and this is all a means to an end.

The safe retrieval of all hostages has been rarely achieved by military force. The times that it has (that I can recall) came when the attacks were carried out by surprise and by special forces. IDF attempts to retrieve their men have consisted of tactical shelling and bombing and (recently) minor incursions to take out strong points near to the border. None of their military actions are consistent with hostage rescue/ return protocols from any of the modern militaries that I have studied.
Conclusion The return of the captured soldiers is of secondary or tertiary importance to the Israeli government.

Corneliu?

They want Israel wiped off the map. Haven't you heard? :eek:

THAT'S IT! That's the solution! WHy the hell didn't I think of it before?

We wipe Israel off the maps! Wait, now bear with me:

We make new maps. The maps don't have Israel on it. We leave em off the maps. We'll build a huge fence around the area where Israel 'used to be' and declare it a radioactive wasteland. The walls and fences are to potect people from contamination. We can make up a news story like Israel's nuclear arsenal accidentally going off, or leaking or something.

And poof! Israel is off the maps and everyone is happy. :)

Makes sense, as that´s their strategy.
The longer the crisis lasts the better chances for Syria and Iran to be dragged into a wider conflict with unknown consequences.

Makes sense, as that´s their strategy.
The longer the crisis lasts the better chances for Syria and Iran to be dragged into a wider conflict with unknown consequences.

And what about Lebanon in the mean time? They are the ones caught in the cross fire in all of this.

Wipe Hizbolla off the face of the earth and destroy any nation that supports them and you will have peace .

Thats how to bargain with terrorist . you kill them .

And what about Lebanon in the mean time? They are the ones caught in the cross fire in all of this.
Unfortunately Lebanon will be the one with least to say in this conflict.
I don´t really think Hezbollah is worried about the consequences for Lebanon, for them it will just be "colateral damage"

Wipe Hizbolla off the face of the earth and destroy any nation that supports them and you will have peace .

Thats how to bargain with terrorist . you kill them .

ANd when Earth is empty of human life, the ants can take over. :)

...until termite terrorists come out of the woodwork. :(

Unfortunately Lebanon will be the one with least to say in this conflict.
I don´t really think Hezbollah is worried about the consequences for Lebanon, for them it will just be "colateral damage"

Lebanon does have a say in the conflict. They can either help do something about Hezbollah or do nothing about them which would give assent to Hezbollah's methods. Damned if they do something and damned if they don't do something.

Lebanon does have a say in the conflict. They can either help do something about Hezbollah or do nothing about them which would give assent to Hezbollah's methods. Damned if they do something and damned if they don't do something.
Lebanon ahs no control aover Hezbollah

Hezbollah coudl pr bly beat the Lebanese army

Lebanon does have a say in the conflict. They can either help do something about Hezbollah or do nothing about them which would give assent to Hezbollah's methods. Damned if they do something and damned if they don't do something.

And how do you suggest that they 'do something about Hezbollah'?

ANd when Earth is empty of human life, the ants can take over. :)

...until termite terrorists come out of the woodwork. :(


The earth will be empty of terrorist life forms . Humans will manage not to blow up in public places and target civilians while hiding amongst innocent poulation .

Do the math.

And how do you suggest that they 'do something about Hezbollah'?

Does this really deserve an answer because really the answer itself is quite obvious. Heck even the PM of Lebanon hinted at doing it yesterday.

The earth will be empty of terrorist life forms . Humans will manage not to blow up in public places and target civilians while hiding amongst innocent poulation .

Do the math.

There will always be terrorists. The act of killing them creates them. To get them all, you'd have to kill all humans.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert says the attacks on Lebanon will be kept up until two captured soldiers are freed.


Israel also, independently, rejects talk of cease-fire.

Does this really deserve an answer because really the answer itself is quite obvious. Heck even the PM of Lebanon hinted at doing it yesterday.
Have a foreign army destroy them? And half your infrastructure while they're there?

Lebanon does have a say in the conflict. They can either help do something about Hezbollah or do nothing about them which would give assent to Hezbollah's methods. Damned if they do something and damned if they don't do something.
In theory yes, but they simply do not have the capability to oust Hezbollah.
A Lebanese friend told me 2 days ago, and I quote "... we can´t oust them, will we try we are gone for another civil war, just the pretext Syrians need to take over again, only the Israelis can possibly oust them..."

There will always be terrorists. The act of killing them creates them. To get them all, you'd have to kill all humans.
Please don't.

That kind of logic results in the same look you get on a canary after teaching it quantum physics.

Does this really deserve an answer because really the answer itself is quite obvious. Heck even the PM of Lebanon hinted at doing it yesterday.
You do realize that Lebanon has no real power over their government as is, and wouldn't survive attacking an organization that is considered to be a part of god for over half of their population.

Does this really deserve an answer because really the answer itself is quite obvious. Heck even the PM of Lebanon hinted at doing it yesterday.

And cause an internal conflict?

Remember the North is mainly Christian and the South is Shiite.

He probably won't order and armed response on them.

You do realize that Lebanon has no real power over their government as is, and wouldn't survive attacking an organization that is considered to be a part of god for over half of their population.

There are over 2 million Hezbollahs? ;)

You do realize that Lebanon has no real power over their government as is, and wouldn't survive attacking an organization that is considered to be a part of god for over half of their population.

Hence why the sudden change of attitude from the Lebanonese Prime Minister who hinted the other day of using the army along the border to stop Hezbollah.

Hence why the sudden change of attitude from the Lebanonese Prime Minister who hinted the other day of using the army along the border to stop Hezbollah.
The PM (not Shia) would love to give the Sunni Hezbollah a kick in the crotch. His ability to actually do it is another matter. Lebanon simply lacks the power to stop Hezbollah.

Does this really deserve an answer because really the answer itself is quite obvious. Heck even the PM of Lebanon hinted at doing it yesterday.

Um, yes. Until you post reasoning supporting it then I would say that the deliberate targeting of the Lebanese army, its resources and the infrastructure it could use to get to Hezbollah would make disarming the organisation rather difficult.

Kind of like continually punching a small boy in the face whilst screaming at him that you won't stop until he beats up his older brother.

I really, really, really wish that you would actually post a reasoned response or argument to something rather than ignoring/ patronising those who take the time to do so.
Either you can't - Which proves them right.
Or you won't - Which is pointless as I would guess that everyone assumes the former reason lies behind your actions if you don't.

The PM (not Shia) would love to give the Sunni Hezbollah a kick in the crotch. His ability to actually do it is another matter. Lebanon simply lacks the power to stop Hezbollah.

Most of Hezbollah is Shia and not sunni. In fact, sunni muslims are condemning Hezbollah. :rolleyes:

*snip*

WHat I posted is what they want. They want their troops back and the rocket attacks to stop and for Hezbollah to be pushed back from the border. In fact, they want 1559 to be implemented.

That's all they want from Lebanon. Period. Dot, period, end of story.

Nothing needs to be explained about that. Not my fault you want to read something into it that is plainly not there though they would also love it if Hezbollah ceased to exist but really, they just want their soldiers back and for the rocket attacks to end.

How is that so hard to comprehend?

There are over 2 million Hezbollahs? ;)


Hizbollah's military strength is roughly 3,000 men, heavily dependent on part-time and irregular forces. Many are highly experienced, often well educated forces. Composed of a core of just 300 to 500 guerrillas. Hizballah has deliberately cut its force over the past years to prevent infiltration and leaks. Hezbollah fighters are old by comparison to Israeli fighters. Any age up to 35, usually married, often university students or professional men.

Heavily supplied and financed by Iran, but Syrian personnel seem to be involved in training and in coordinating with Iran. Iranian and Syrian coordination of support for military supply and possibly operations of Hezbollah seems to occur at the general officer, deputy minister level.

By the late 1990s Iran was flying three 747 cargo jets monthly to Hezbollah via Syria in an effort to upgrade their arms capabilities. Weapons include the Russian made Sagger and Strella antitank missiles. Iran's military camps in Lebanon with some 150-250 Iranian troops appeared to be offering training on the more advanced systems. Intelligence reports estimate Iranian aid to Hezbollah to be between 65 and 120 million dollars a year.

From 1998, Hizbollah forces were carrying out an average of two operations a day against the SLA and Israeli forces. Some missions involve long range shelling while others have included sophisticated roadside bombings and commando missions involving 40 well-trained guerrillas operating as a team. Guerrilla mortar strikes have improved in both accuracy and range, indicating better range-finding systems, low signature weapons, and the use of mortar boosters that enable consistent hits for 2 to 3 miles. Improved radio detonated roadside bombs were very effective against the Israelis. Some were disguised as large rocks. The fake rocks were bought from garden shops and ten packed with explosives.

Hizbollah is equipped with APCs, artillery, multiple rocket launchers, mortars, anti-tank guided missiles (including AT-3s), recoilless rifles, SA-7s, anti-aircraft guns. New longer range anti-tank weapons capable of burning through the armor plate of Israel's M-60 tanks. The supply of Katyusha rockets is estimated to have risen to 1,000. These include 30 Iranian produced 240 mm rockets with a range of 40 km, according to Israeli intelligence reports. Most of the rockets are 120 mm and 127 mm variants with a maximum range of 22 km


http://www.cedarland.org/hizb.html


BIG gap .


Lebanon is comprised of about 1.2 million Shiites and 2.8 million citizens of other sects. Elections last year gave Hezbollah a strong parliament presence of 11 lawmakers and two seats in the Cabinet, increasing predictions among many Lebanese that the group would abandon guerrilla action and become a political party

BIG gap .


Already the new fighting has deepened divisions in Lebanon, mostly along sectarian lines. The country's 1.2 million Shiites largely support Hezbollah, while Sunnis, Christians and Druse mostly oppose it.

Lebanon's army of about 70,000 soldiers far outnumbers Hezbollah's estimated 6,000 fighters, but its troops lack the guerrillas' battle experience.

Largely manned by Shiite Muslims, the army could also break up along sectarian lines, while the guerrillas can call on thousands of supporters. And Hezbollah's religious zeal - and willingness to die in battle - also makes it a formidable foe, increasing fears that the latest conflict could tear Lebanon apart.

"Hezbollah has taken the country hostage. They have destroyed people's homes and infrastructure," cried Mohammed Bazazo, 50, a merchant in the predominantly Sunni southern port city of Sidon.



Even bigger gap .

Um, yes. Until you post reasoning supporting it then I would say that the deliberate targeting of the Lebanese army, its resources and the infrastructure it could use to get to Hezbollah would make disarming the organisation rather difficult.


If you noticed, they haven't been bombing the north. The bridges, communications, and general infrastructure have been in the South and south Beruit where Hezbollah works.

Some bridges were in "safe" area but where hit because they could be used for support.

A coworker is from there and his wife and family went to the mountains as a precaution. He paints an interesting story which the news agencies don't report......

WHat I posted is what they want. They want their troops back and the rocket attacks to stop and for Hezbollah to be pushed back from the border. In fact, they want 1559 to be implemented.

That's all they want from Lebanon. Period. Dot, period, end of story.

Nothing needs to be explained about that. Not my fault you want to read something into it that is plainly not there though they would also love it if Hezbollah ceased to exist but really, they just want their soldiers back and for the rocket attacks to end.

How is that so hard to comprehend?
probably because Israel declined the Hezbollah offer for cease-fire when this all started

Hezbollah is not the peaceful kind, so I'm hardly surprised.

Unfortunately they had also been struggling with influence and membership in recent years. I watched a documentary recently about TV in Lebanon, and it talked about how the young people are watching music videos, comedians and soapies rather than the Hezbollah channel and other religious programs.

Without a war people were no longer interested in Hezbollah, and they were criticised a lot for being the only party from the civil war that still hadn't disarmed.

This is giving them the perfect excuse to stay around, gives them extra support in the population as well as plenty of extra cash and equipment from all around the world.

I mean, if I was the head of the IDF...it just makes no military or political sense to do all this.

probably because Israel declined the Hezbollah offer for cease-fire when this all started

I would reject it myself. Prisoner exchange? Give me a break.

WHat I posted is what they want. They want their troops back and the rocket attacks to stop and for Hezbollah to be pushed back from the border. In fact, they want 1559 to be implemented.


Because throwing bombs and shells at the places where your guys might be held whilst simultaneously attacking the one force in the area that might help and refusing the help of another force that would doesn't seem to make sense if you want these guys back.
Where are the ground troops, the raids, the negotiations? Where is the evidence that the IDF are making a real attempt to resuce two men?

How will bombing areas so confusing that 12 out of 13 deaths aren't the right target be more effective than a four year on-the-ground-occupation at dismantling a terrorist movement? Who is the only group to benefit from the destruction of the Lebansese army?
How does bombing the Lebanese army and all routes to their 'target' (i.e. all the routes into Southern Lebanon) help them defeat Hezbollah?

Seriously, just saying 'I'm right and you are refusing to see it' all the time is not a convincing arguement.

WHat I posted is what they want. They want their troops back and the rocket attacks to stop and for Hezbollah to be pushed back from the border. In fact, they want 1559 to be implemented.

That's all they want from Lebanon. Period. Dot, period, end of story.

Nothing needs to be explained about that. Not my fault you want to read something into it that is plainly not there though they would also love it if Hezbollah ceased to exist but really, they just want their soldiers back and for the rocket attacks to end.

How is that so hard to comprehend?

I blanked on what 1559 was.

There is also the problem of the farm area that Israel holds. It was an argument point between Lebanon and Syria. Syria says Lebanon is the holder but they never gave any formal paperwork saying it was.

It would probably be a bargaining point if the land was declared formally to belong to Lebanon.

Hezbollah is not the peaceful kind, so I'm hardly surprised.

Unfortunately they had also been struggling with influence and membership in recent years. I watched a documentary recently about TV in Lebanon, and it talked about how the young people are watching music videos, comedians and soapies rather than the Hezbollah channel and other religious programs.

Without a war people were no longer interested in Hezbollah, and they were criticised a lot for being the only party from the civil war that still hadn't disarmed.

This is giving them the perfect excuse to stay around, gives them extra support in the population as well as plenty of extra cash and equipment from all around the world.

I mean, if I was the head of the IDF...it just makes no military or political sense to do all this.

People forget about the amount of Christians that live there.

My coworker says people are pissed at Hezbollah because this will screw the tourism business this year. He said even in the current state, they still (before the fighting) get about 1 million tourists.....

I blanked on what 1559 was.

There is also the problem of the farm area that Israel holds. It was an argument point between Lebanon and Syria. Syria says Lebanon is the holder but they never gave any formal paperwork saying it was.

It would probably be a bargaining point if the land was declared formally to belong to Lebanon.

It is internationally recognized as Syrian territory and not Lebanonese territory.

Because throwing bombs and shells at the places where your guys might be held whilst simultaneously attacking the one force in the area that might help and refusing the help of another force that would doesn't seem to make sense if you want these guys back.
Where are the ground troops, the raids, the negotiations? Where is the evidence that the IDF are making a real attempt to resuce two men?

How will bombing areas so confusing that 12 out of 13 deaths aren't the right target be more effective than a four year on-the-ground-occupation at dismantling a terrorist movement? Who is the only group to benefit from the destruction of the Lebansese army?
How does bombing the Lebanese army and all routes to their 'target' help them defeat Hezbollah.

Seriously, just saying 'I'm right and you are refusing to see it' all the time is not a convincing arguement.


So what part of this do you NOT understand ?

Already the new fighting has deepened divisions in Lebanon, mostly along sectarian lines. The country's 1.2 million Shiites largely support Hezbollah, while Sunnis, Christians and Druse mostly oppose it.

Lebanon's army of about 70,000 soldiers far outnumbers Hezbollah's estimated 6,000 fighters, but its troops lack the guerrillas' battle experience.

Largely manned by Shiite Muslims, the army could also break up along sectarian lines, while the guerrillas can call on thousands of supporters. And Hezbollah's religious zeal - and willingness to die in battle - also makes it a formidable foe, increasing fears that the latest conflict could tear Lebanon apart.

"Hezbollah has taken the country hostage. They have destroyed people's homes and infrastructure," cried Mohammed Bazazo, 50, a merchant in the predominantly Sunni southern port city of Sidon.


Israel can do what Lebenon cant do ..its that simple.

I would reject it myself. Prisoner exchange? Give me a break.
well, if Hezbollah rejects this it puts them on the same level, so stop hitting on Hezbollah so much for rejecting a cease-fire

It is internationally recognized as Syrian territory and not Lebanonese territory.

My coworker says Syria said the farm area belongs to Lebanon.

So what part of this do you NOT understand ?



Israel can do what Lebenon cant do ..its that simple.

No they can't.

So what part of this do you NOT understand ?

Israel can do what Lebenon cant do ..its that simple.

Maybe Lebanon doesn't want another internal fight again.

Besides I don't think their army is trained for gorilla fighting.....

So what part of this do you NOT understand ?
Israel can do what Lebenon cant do ..its that simple.

So, you are saying that Israel can disarm/destroy Hezbollah, unlike Lebanon?

I agree that the Lebanese army are certainly in no position too, certainly after the missions carried out against them by Israel.

Let's say that you are right and that, this time, the IDF can succeed where four bloody years of full occupation failed to get anywhere close to. Let's say that they succeed against every precedent that has been set over the last 50 years. Let's say that a good confrontation with an overly aggressive IDF isn't the shot in the arm that Hezbollah need.

Where is the ground invasion?

Point to a single case in modern history when a bombing campaign destroyed an insurgent army. Especially one that splits its resources (to allow it to bomb the Lebanese army)?

And why is Israel against the UN sending in troops to keep the ceasefire, which would intrinsically mean trying to disarm Hezbollah?

And I take it that you agree that Israel is not making any true effort to rescue its missing men?

People forget about the amount of Christians that live there.
I haven't. But then, Hezbollah was never going to be big with the Christians, was it? ;)

I meant your average Sunnis and Shi'ites.

EDIT:
Have a read.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,427043,00.html
A spiral of violence has stymied peace in the Middle East for decades. Now, as bombs are being dropped on Beirut, rockets fired at Haifa and tanks sent into Gaza, Israel and Muslim extremists have brought the region to the brink of all out war. And the Israelis are being confronted by the wreckage of their own security policies.
A good summary of the situation.

Typical Fox News.

Hezbollah sharply rejected talk of a cease-fire Monday, accusing international proposals for the end of violence a ploy to help Israel continue striking Lebanon.

The guerrilla group remains that it wants an unconditional cease-fire.

So, you are saying that Israel can disarm/destroy Hezbollah, unlike Lebanon?

I agree that the Lebanese army are certainly in no position too, certainly after the missions carried out against them by Israel.

Let's say that you are right and that, this time, the IDF can succeed where four bloody years of full occupation failed to get anywhere close to. Let's say that a good confrontation with an overly aggressive IDF isn't the shot in the arm that Hezbollah need.

Where is the ground invasion?

Point to a single case in modern history when a bombing campaign destroyed an insurgent army.

And why is Israel against the UN sending in troops to keep the ceasefire, which would intrinsically mean trying to disarm Hezbollah?

You do not compile the troops and equipment for a ground campaign overnight . Israel already did a few raids to destroy launch sites. Give them time to assemble the proper amount of overwhelming and devastating force and stand back and watch . They WILL move every hezbolla still alive beyond the area that they can attack Israel from .

And if you have not NOTICED the UN is a JOKE they have not stopped CRAP for years . would YOU trust the UN to secure YOUR border ? I think not .
They ARE supposed to be keeping Israel from being attacked as part of the aggreement that had israel LEAVE Southern Lebenon..remember ...RIGHT SWELL JOB THEY ARE DOING wouldnt you say ?

Guys, the UN already has 2000 peacekeepers in the region. Just so you all know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIFIL

well, if Hezbollah rejects this it puts them on the same level, so stop hitting on Hezbollah so much for rejecting a cease-fire

Hezbollah started all of this and want known crooks released. Sorry but not gonna happen this time.

Check the mandate for the UNFIL deployment. They have been notably successful actually.

I see you continue to ignore the points I make that do not support your arguement (other than the ground invasion) and you continue not to provide any evidence to support yours.

I take it that the IDF, who moved into Gaza in a few hours, do not have the capability or the expertise to mobilise the rest of their army? They have had several days and the world has seen no sign of a significant build up.

So, how much time will they need? If they are going to push Hezbollah north then why the bombing of civilian areas now? Why provoke Hezbollah into upping its rocket attacks?

Why didn't the Israeli government play for time? Pretended to negotiate. Get their forces forces into position. Then launched their attacks?

Hezbollah has been inflicting pinprick attacks on Israel for years. Why is Israel responding now? It clearly isn't because of the kidnap of the soldiers as they have made it plain they don't consider them a high priority.

My coworker says Syria said the farm area belongs to Lebanon.

Well duh since they are the one's funding Hezbollah but the International Community (which is more nations than Syria) recognize the farm area as Syrian territory and NOT Lebanonese. excuse me for believing them over your friend.

I haven't. But then, Hezbollah was never going to be big with the Christians, was it? ;)

I meant your average Sunnis and Shi'ites.

EDIT:
Have a read.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,427043,00.html

A good summary of the situation.

I will give it a read.

But I think they (for now) don't want to expand it. A bomb fell near the Syrian border and Israel and Syria were quick to say it didn't hit Syrian soil.....

Most of Hezbollah is Shia and not sunni. In fact, sunni muslims are condemning Hezbollah. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: well done you've managed to nitpick a mistake. If you read five seconds earlier in the same sentance you'd realize that. Now, are you going to actually rebut my statement or are you just going to sit there with a smug look on your face because you 'scored' a technical victory.

Guys, the UN already has 2000 peacekeepers in the region. Just so you all know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIFIL

And what are they doing to stop this crap? Nothing.

Peacekeepers not keeping the peace? Perish the thought.

And what are they doing to stop this crap? Nothing.

Peacekeepers not keeping the peace? Perish the thought.

What do you want them to do?

Well duh since they are the one's funding Hezbollah but the International Community (which is more nations than Syria) recognize the farm area as Syrian territory and NOT Lebanonese. excuse me for believing them over your friend.

:D Actually you only want to belive what fits in your view of things. Like those dirty activist courts when they don't follow your views. :rolleyes:

Lebanon wants it not because Syria funds Hezbollah. :rolleyes:

And what are they doing to stop this crap? Nothing.

Peacekeepers not keeping the peace? Perish the thought.


They are watching porn in the porn bunker , trying to avoid being taken hostage and paraded on the internet begging for their lives...they are not alllowed to fight. They may as well be target dummies .

And what are they doing to stop this crap? Nothing.

Peacekeepers not keeping the peace? Perish the thought.
I belive most of those Peacekeepers are observers, and widely dispersed.

A large international force has been proposed, and large numbers of peacekeepers, with actual fightign equipment, and concentrated, can hopefulyl controll teh situation

What do you want them to do?

I'd kind of expected them to keep other nation's terror groups from crossing the border.

Now there are talks of sending additional peacekeepers to the region. Hopefully they'll have the mandate to kick some some terrorist ass straight to hell where these animals belong.

I belive most of those Peacekeepers are observers, and widely dispersed.

As I said...doing nothing.

A large international force has been proposed, and large numbers of peacekeepers, with actual fightign equipment, and concentrated, can hopefulyl controll teh situation

One can only hope.

I'd kind of expected them to keep other nation's terror groups from crossing the border.

Now there are talks of sending additional peacekeepers to the region. Hopefully they'll have the mandate to kick some some terrorist ass straight to hell where these animals belong.
What, you mean like how they stop the IDF from crossing the border?


You have some high expectations of a peacekeeping force which has a hard enough time keeping itself funded with it's limited operations, much less playing border cop.

Hopefully they'll have the mandate to kick some some terrorist ass straight to hell where these animals belong.
Hehe. There goes all the talk about national sovereignty down the drain...

Something tells me that like most "peacekeepers", they show up after everything is essentially over.

If the IDF takes the border area in less than a week (which is feasible), they'll have the border buffer they asked for.

Then "peacekeepers" from the UN arrive, and sit in the buffer zone, occasionally rocketed by Hezbollah who remain.

After a decade, the buffer zone is essentially a permanent thing.

Hehe. There goes all the talk about national sovereignty down the drain...

Hey it worked in Iraq right? ;)

What, you mean like how they stop the IDF from crossing the border?

The IDF is not a terror organization. They are waging this action in self defense. Period.

You have some high expectations of a peacekeeping force which has a hard enough time keeping itself funded with it's limited operations, much less playing border cop.

Goes to show why I don't have a high view of the UN now does it?

As I said...doing nothing.

yeah, but its not liek they could do anythign of substance

the observers are not well armed, and are horribly dispersed, stop bashing the peacekeepers

yeah, but its not liek they could do anythign of substance

the observers are not well armed, and are horribly dispersed, stop bashing the peacekeepers

When peacekeepers can't keep the peace, they deserve the bashing.

Goes to show why I don't have a high view of the UN now does it?

What? Your President's boy Bolton didn't fix it yet?

Hehe. There goes all the talk about national sovereignty down the drain...

National SOVEREIGNTY includes being able to controll your territory and keep your own militia forces from declaring war on other countries when you do not want them to.

The Lebenese didnt LOSE their sovereignty they gave it to HEZBOLLA .

When peacekeepers can't keep the peace, they deserve the bashing.

What about the guys in Iraq?

What about the guys in Iraq?
Those are "warmonger" not "peacekeepers".

They do what warmongers do.

What about the guys in Iraq?

Are there Peacekeepers in Iraq? No? didn't think so.

When peacekeepers can't keep the peace, they deserve the bashing.
they are observers, not peacekeepers

they are there to observe and report to the UN

they are in no position to hold the peace in Southern Lebanon

The Lebenese didnt LOSE their sovereignty they gave it to HEZBOLLA .
In other words...if the international community decides through the UN to...say...declare the Republican Party a terrorist organisation, establishes its clear links to the NRA and various militias, the UN is cleared to go into the US and destroy the Republican Party?

It is not the UN's job to decide someone is a terrorist and then go there and destroy them.

In other words...if the international community decides through the UN to...say...declare the Republican Party a terrorist organisation, establishes its clear links to the NRA and various militias, the UN is cleared to go into the US and destroy the Republican Party?

It is not the UN's job to decide someone is a terrorist and then go there and destroy them.

Everyone knows that Hezbollah is a terror organization. Everyone knows that Hamas is a terror organization. the NRA hasn't gone around blowing up civilians intentional and neither has the Republican party. :rolleyes:

National SOVEREIGNTY includes being able to controll your territory and keep your own militia forces from declaring war on other countries when you do not want them to.

The Lebenese didnt LOSE their sovereignty they gave it to HEZBOLLA .
Lebanon was occupied by Israel or Syria for a long period of time

during this time, Lebanon has had no army, and Hezbollah did pretty much what it wanted

Once the Syrians (the last occupiers) retreated, Lebanon found itself in quite a problem with Hezbollah.

The fact is, that if the IDF and the Syrian army cannot defeat Hezbollah, then the puny Lebanese army cannot

so the Lebanese have indeed lost their sovereignty to Hezbollah

Everyone knows that Hezbollah is a terror organization. Everyone knows that Hamas is a terror organization. the NRA hasn't gone around blowing up civilians intentional and neither has the Republican party. :rolleyes:
Which is hardly the point. Not "everyone" knows...if you ask the entire world community, you'll get quite a few dissenting voices.

By the same token, ask about Bush and his mates around the world. You get the picture - it's dangerous to let an organisation like the UN make these decisions.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203908,00.html

Looks like Hezbollah doesn't want peace after all as they promise more rocket attacks. Goes to show you cannot negotiate with terrorists.
I guess Hezbollah didn't like what the "terrorists" offered? :rolleyes:

I guess Hezbollah didn't like what the "terrorists" offered? :rolleyes:

And what did Hamas offer to Hezbollah?

In other words...if the international community decides through the UN to...say...declare the Republican Party a terrorist organisation, establishes its clear links to the NRA and various militias, the UN is cleared to go into the US and destroy the Republican Party?

It is not the UN's job to decide someone is a terrorist and then go there and destroy them.

And how many rockets has the GOP launched into Mexico? How many people has the NRA beheaded? Where in their official party platforms does it call for what amounts to genocide?

And what did Hamas offer to Hezbollah?

Not too much since Hamas goes for training from Hezbollah.

In other words...if the international community decides through the UN to...say...declare the Republican Party a terrorist organisation, establishes its clear links to the NRA and various militias, the UN is cleared to go into the US and destroy the Republican Party?

It is not the UN's job to decide someone is a terrorist and then go there and destroy them.

How in Odins name did that response have anything to do with LEBENON GIVING UP THEIR SOVEREIGNTY TO HEZBOLLA ???????? If the GOVERNMENT of LEBENON cant controll the southern part of their country they have CEEDED it to HEZBOLLA and Hezbolla is using it to make war on Israel .
Since hezbolla is both part of the Lebanese government AND a militia and a terrorist organization that was SUPPOSED to be disarmed by the Lebanese government , it is UP TO ISRAEL to defend itself and do the job of the Lebanese government and the UN ...who both have FAILED to protect Israels borders as they aggreed to do when Israel pulled out of Southern Lebanon .

so now if you can explain how the UN and the NRA come into play in this discusion ...it would really be an eye opener .

Who even MENTIONED the international community ?

If the international community had any balls there would have been no war in Iraq ...the UN would have forced Saddanm to comply with the cease fire terms instead of getting rich off oil for food for ten years..Iran would be begging to have sanctions lifted and would have agreed to abide by the treaties on nuclear power it signed and stopped its support for terrorist . Syria would be begging to have the sanctions lifted imposed for supporting and Arming terrorist and the Palestinians would either have their own state or would be in UN occupied territory looking for handouts . NK would be totally isolated and under sanctions if not having already been attacked to remove its nuclear capability.
And IF the UN had ANY balls what so ever the world would be a happy place indeed .

But we live in the real world .... How long have the missiles been flying now a week or more ???...whats up with the security council...did they even order donuts yet ? Whats up with the UN period are they going to at least ask nice ffor the terrorist to put away their toys ?

WTF are they waiting for ? A missile to land in Tel Avi ...so that Iran can be turned to a glass bowl ?

Who even MENTIONED the international community ?
Corneliu said he wanted the UN to go and kick some terrorist ass. I'm saying that there are significant issues with allowing the UN to do that sort of thing, especially if you're one of those (usually American) types that think any multinational organisation is somehow an infringement on national sovereignty.

Corneliu said he wanted the UN to go and kick some terrorist ass. I'm saying that there are significant issues with allowing the UN to do that sort of thing, especially if you're one of those (usually American) types that think any multinational organisation is somehow an infringement on national sovereignty.

If Lebanon agrees to that type of mandate, then there wouldn't be any problems. If they don't, then we go back to square one and Israel bombs Lebanon for a few more days.

If Lebanon agrees to that type of mandate, then there wouldn't be any problems. If they don't, then we go back to square one and Israel bombs Lebanon for a few more days.
So Lebanon agrees to hand over its sovereignty and Israel stops. Well, it seems we know what Israel wants.

Oh, and Israel has just fired upon the Lebanese Army. Assholes don't want to stop Hezbollah, they're attacking the Lebanese.

So Lebanon agrees to hand over its sovereignty and Israel stops. Well, it seems we know what Israel wants.

Oh, and Israel has just fired upon the Lebanese Army. Assholes don't want to stop Hezbollah, they're attacking the Lebanese.

The Lebanese Army is essentially useless. Who cares? They were probably seen helping Hezbollah.

So Lebanon agrees to hand over its sovereignty and Israel stops. Well, it seems we know what Israel wants.

Oh, and Israel has just fired upon the Lebanese Army. Assholes don't want to stop Hezbollah, they're attacking the Lebanese.

Who said anything about handing full soveriegnty over to them? The troops will be near the border to keep Hezbollah from launching rockets into Israel. If they move towards the border, the troops should have the authority to shoot. If Lebanon wants hezbollah disarmed,(and they are obligated to under 1559) they are going to have to have help in doing so for we all know that they can't for political reasons.

The Lebanese Army is essentially useless. Who cares? They were probably seen helping Hezbollah.
:rolleyes: Not even the israeli mouthpiece on the beeb is saying that. Israel is just attacking Lebanon, not Hezbollah. They lied. They're not after Hezbollah, they're after taking control over Lebanon.

So Lebanon agrees to hand over its sovereignty and Israel stops. Well, it seems we know what Israel wants.

Oh, and Israel has just fired upon the Lebanese Army. Assholes don't want to stop Hezbollah, they're attacking the Lebanese.

Well...Israel is blaming Lebanon for not following through on 1559. What did you expect? Also, Hezbollah are lebanonese as well.

:rolleyes: Not even the israeli mouthpiece on the beeb is saying that. Israel is just attacking Lebanon, not Hezbollah. They lied. They're not after Hezbollah, they're after taking control over Lebanon.
It would appear that they gave Lebanon a few days to make up their mind whether or not to drive out Hezbollah.

Lebanon only answered with weak promises, and no action.

Looks like Lebanon was unwilling to drive out Hezbollah, so now the Israelis will do it for them.

Oh, and Israel has just fired upon the Lebanese Army.
If that is true...I swear to all that is holy...I've been trying to not get into conspiracy theories, to believe that they're after establishing security by killing off Hezbollah (however foolish the idea may be)...if the IDF is now intentionally attacking the Lebanese Army, they've lost the last shred of my support. You don't go around and start wars like this. It would be even more wrong than the whole Iraq-thing was.

:rolleyes: Not even the israeli mouthpiece on the beeb is saying that. Israel is just attacking Lebanon, not Hezbollah. They lied. They're not after Hezbollah, they're after taking control over Lebanon.

If you firmly believe that then I have several bridges for sail in Pittsburgh.

If that is true...I swear to all that is holy...I've been trying to not get into conspiracy theories, to believe that they're after establishing security by killing off Hezbollah (however foolish the idea may be)...if the IDF is now intentionally attacking the Lebanese Army, they've lost the last shred of my support. You don't go around and start wars like this. It would be even more wrong than the whole Iraq-thing was.

They hit a lebanonese military base. According to Lebanonese officials, 11 dead and 35 wounded.

They hit a lebanonese military base. According to Lebanonese officials, 11 dead and 35 wounded.
Did they say why they did it?

Did they say why they did it?

So now you are going to condemn them for hitting yet another military target? They are holding Lebanon responsible for not doing something about Hezbollah.

So now you are going to condemn them for hitting yet another military target? They are holding Lebanon responsible for not doing something about Hezbollah.
Which is bullshit, and they know it. Lebanon never was in a position to do something about them. The Syrians only left a few months ago.

Not only that, but the Lebanese government and Hezbollah were in talks about Hezbollah's disarmament for some time before this kidnapping.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51052
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060629/wl_mideast_afp/lebanonpolitics_060629172610
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=52241&SelectRegion=Middle_East&SelectCountry=LEBANON

Which is bullshit, and they know it. Lebanon never was in a position to do something about them. The Syrians only left a few months ago.

Not only that, but the Lebanese government and Hezbollah were in talks about Hezbollah's disarmament for some time before this kidnapping.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51052
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060629/wl_mideast_afp/lebanonpolitics_060629172610
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=52241&SelectRegion=Middle_East&SelectCountry=LEBANON

Now look at it from the Israerli side. From their pov, Lebanon did not comply with 1559 and thus why they are blaming the government of Lebanon for what is going on.

Now look at it from the Israerli side. From their pov, Lebanon did not comply with 1559 and thus why they are blaming the government of Lebanon for what is going on.
You don't credit the Israelis with much brains, do you. They know exactly what was going on in Lebanon and what they could expect. Which is why this is so perplexing to me.

I seriously wanna know what the IDF said were their reasons, because I can't think of any that wouldn't belong into the conspiracy theory column.

You don't credit the Israelis with much brains, do you. They know exactly what was going on in Lebanon and what they could expect. Which is why this is so perplexing to me.

I seriously wanna know what the IDF said were their reasons, because I can't think of any that wouldn't belong into the conspiracy theory column.

It's entirely possible that the Lebanese Army, such as it is, has already begun to separate along sectarian lines (it is organized that was officially by brigades), and some of the Lebanese Army may be quite loyal to Hezbollah, while the rest are not.

Without the information first hand from the ground, you have no way of knowing what the reason is, and not all of them are conspiracy theories.

Without the information first hand from the ground, you have no way of knowing what the reason is, and not all of them are conspiracy theories.
Hey, I try and figure out likely reasons myself...I just wanna know how they jusitified it publically, because I have to start somewhere.

As it is, everyone knows that the Lebanese government (and army) and Hezbollah are seperate. So far Israel has been attacking Hezbollah and Lebanese infrastructure in order to hurt Hezbollah (not always jusitifiably so IMHO).
If they are now explicitly attacking the Lebanese government, they're introducing an entirely new, pretty much innocent, party into the war (although the civilians were in it already anyways, "Just Reward" indeed :rolleyes: ).
I wanna know what they have to say for themselves.

Hey, I try and figure out likely reasons myself...I just wanna know how they jusitified it publically, because I have to start somewhere.

As it is, everyone knows that the Lebanese government (and army) and Hezbollah are seperate. So far Israel has been attacking Hezbollah and Lebanese infrastructure in order to hurt Hezbollah (not always jusitifiably so IMHO).
If they are now explicitly attacking the Lebanese government, they're introducing an entirely new, pretty much innocent, party into the war (although the civilians were in it already anyways, "Just Reward" indeed :rolleyes: ).
I wanna know what they have to say for themselves.


They might be attacking what are essentially separate elements of the Lebanese Army. It is no secret that the brigades of the Lebanese Army are distinct by sectarian group.

During conflict, they are well known to go their own way.

They might be attacking what are essentially separate elements of the Lebanese Army.
I don't care though about your rationalisations after the fact. I want to know what they said why they did it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203908,00.html

Looks like Hezbollah doesn't want peace after all as they promise more rocket attacks. Goes to show you cannot negotiate with terrorists.
Why ceasefire when the longer the "fight" goes, the more Hezbollah wins?

Why ceasefire when the longer the "fight" goes, the more Hezbollah wins?

I guess you consider losing 40 to 50 percent of your military weaponry inside of a week "winning".

Why ceasefire when the longer the "fight" goes, the more Hezbollah wins?

Funny. Seems to me Hezbollah isn't gaining that much support from the population of Lebanon except from the Shia community.

Funny. Seems to me Hezbollah isn't gaining that much support from the population of Lebanon except from the Shia community.

Care to post some evidence to support that claim?

I guess you consider losing 40 to 50 percent of your military weaponry inside of a week "winning".

Even if they have lost the amount that the IDF (hardly likely to be an unbiased source) claim, I still don't see Israel actually dismantling Hezbollah.
It took them three days to launch an invasion last time. How long has it taken them this time? A week and counting? Any significant build up of forces? Any evidence that they are going to curtail the bombing which isn't killing a significant number of militants but is hitting the populace of Lebanon? Any evidence of actually planning to employ effective suppression/ dismantlement methods against Hezbollah?
Please, post some evidence. Show me where I am wrong.

I don't care though about your rationalisations after the fact. I want to know what they said why they did it.

I can't find any press release justifying deliberatly targeted attacks on the Lebanese army. It may exist somewhere but, as far as I can ascertain, they are pretending that the strikes aren't happening.

If anyone else has found a press release justifying the attacks on the Lebanese military then please post the link here.
Thank you.

Funny. Seems to me Hezbollah isn't gaining that much support from the population of Lebanon except from the Shia community.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0718/p01s03-wome.html

I guess you consider losing 40 to 50 percent of your military weaponry inside of a week "winning".
I suppose you consider winning an ever increasing amount of support "losing."

I still don't see Israel actually dismantling Hezbollah.
It took them three days to launch an invasion last time. How long has it taken them this time?

Also, considering two decades of occupation didn't seem to destroy them, I wonder what makes people think this time will be any different?

Care to post some evidence to support that claim?

have you heard anyone supporting Hezbollah outside of Iran and Syria? Even the Arab League condemned Hezbollah.

Even if they have lost the amount that the IDF (hardly likely to be an unbiased source) claim, I still don't see Israel actually dismantling Hezbollah.
It took them three days to launch an invasion last time. How long has it taken them this time? A week and counting?

You do know that Israel doesn't want to make this a wider but right now, they are holding off an invasion but it still is not out of the question.

Any significant build up of forces? Any evidence that they are going to curtail the bombing which isn't killing a significant number of militants but is hitting the populace of Lebanon? Any evidence of actually planning to employ effective suppression/ dismantlement methods against Hezbollah?
Please, post some evidence. Show me where I am wrong.

Why should I when it is apparent that no matter what I post you are going to ignore. It is quite obvious that you have ignored many political aspects of this whole thing and have focused primarily on the military aspect of it. There is more going on here than a simple military operation. Politics are also involved here. Do you not understand that? In war, there is more forces at work than just military. Its high time you get that into your head.

Israel doesn't want to start a full blown war in the reason but by God, they will not tolerate cross border violence from other nations. Lebanon has 2 choices, either risk civil war or let Hezbollah destroy Lebanon. Right now, looks like they are going to let Hezbollah destroy Lebanon.

I can't find any press release justifying deliberatly targeted attacks on the Lebanese army. It may exist somewhere but, as far as I can ascertain, they are pretending that the strikes aren't happening.

What proof is needed when that nation is at war?

If anyone else has found a press release justifying the attacks on the Lebanese military then please post the link here.
Thank you.

Its called ummm war?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0718/p01s03-wome.html

Do you know what the demographic is of Lebanon? It is 48% shia.

I suppose you consider winning an ever increasing amount of support "losing."

Care to point where I said that?

have you heard anyone supporting Hezbollah outside of Iran and Syria? Even the Arab League condemned Hezbollah.
You obviously did not read my link.


You do know that Israel doesn't want to make this a wider but right now, they are holding off an invasion but it still is not out of the question.
I consider bombing airports and neighborhoods and blockading a country to be invading.


Why should I when it is apparent that no matter what I post you are going to ignore.
Like a certain link containing information contradictory to your (idiotic) belief that Israel's assault is not going to fuel Hezbollah and multiply hatred for Israel throughout the Arab world.

What proof is needed when that nation is at war?
There is no war.

Do you know what the demographic is of Lebanon? It is 48% shia.

You didn't even look at the link.

Care to point where I said that?
Was I quoting you? No.

um... can youfid this on a better source than Faux News?

You do know that Israel doesn't want to make this a wider but right now, they are holding off an invasion but it still is not out of the question.

How is an invasion limited to Southern Lebanon going to make it any wider than it is now? Israeli jets are hitting targets in the far north of Lebanon.
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150886004416&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull - 56k -
And there have been multiple ground incursions by the IDF since the incident.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/12/israel-lebanon.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1822988,00.html

Why should I when it is apparent that no matter what I post you are going to ignore.

I don't ignore your posts. You tend to ignore mine. I have issues with what you say because all you produce are conclusions, never any evidence, or a source, or a reasoned argument.

It is quite obvious that you have ignored many political aspects of this whole thing and have focused primarily on the military aspect of it. There is more going on here than a simple military operation. Politics are also involved here. Do you not understand that? In war, there is more forces at work than just military. Its high time you get that into your head.
Oddly, I do understand that. Indeed, the whole point of my posts has been to try and understand what politics lies beyond the military attacks and the stated justifications for the attacks. All of those justifications are military objectives. Most of the IDF's actions look like they are seeking a political objective. The reasoning of which I have posted many times and there is a thread dedicated to. One which I invited you to participate in...

Lebanon has 2 choices, either risk civil war or let Hezbollah destroy Lebanon. Right now, looks like they are going to let Hezbollah destroy Lebanon.
Please explain to me how they are going to do that with the IDF bombing them and shelling them.
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885985413&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull - 91k -
ww.haaretz.com/.../ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=737860&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0 - 812k
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article1183342.ece
http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2206259
And all routes into and out of the area that Hezbollah are operating from?

Its called ummm war?
So Israel has actually declared war on Lebanon?
Could you post a link to that statement please?

How is an invasion limited to Southern Lebanon going to make it any wider than it is now? Israeli jets are hitting targets in the far north of Lebanon.

Hello!!! Ports aren't just in the South. Notice the targets they are hitting. Ports have been used by Hezbollah to smuggle in weapons to be used against Israel. It makes sense to bomb those ports to deny smuggling to Hezbollah. Its smart military tactics.

And there have been multiple ground incursions by the IDF since the incident.

As opposed to the incursion by Hezbollah that started this whole affair. Also, Israel has not stayed in Lebanon when they do launch their incursion. Heaven forbid if they do decide to move in and stay to wipe out their enemies.

I don't ignore your posts. You tend to ignore mine. I have issues with what you say because all you produce are conclusions, never any evidence, or a source, or a reasoned argument.

There's no need for evidence when all the evidence is in the friggin press. If you pay attention to the news once in awhile you wouldn't be so ignorant as to what is really going on.

Oddly, I do understand that. Indeed, the whole point of my posts has been to try and understand what politics lies beyond the military attacks and the stated justifications for the attacks. All of those justifications are military objectives. Most of the IDF's actions look like they are seeking a political objective. The reasoning of which I have posted many times and there is a thread dedicated to. One which I invited you to participate in...

And where I am not going to get drawn into a fight over this with someone who has failed to understand the politics of this whole thing. Military operations are one thing. We can debate those till we are blue in the face.

Please explain to me how they are going to do that with the IDF bombing them and shelling them.

All they have to do is make the moves to do so. Also, they can ask for help in disarming Hezbollah. Guess what? Syria won't let them do that. You think Lebanon is totally independent? Guess what? They are not.

And all routes into and out of the area that Hezbollah are operating from?

Good. Israel bombing routes to keep Hezbollah from being supplied from Syria which has already been proven. Not to mention an Iranian missile has already been taken out before it can launch. This is not a game anymore. This is a fight for survival. It is unfortunate the Lebanon is the one caught in the crossfire but war does not care who gets caught in it.

So Israel has actually declared war on Lebanon?
Could you post a link to that statement please?

Since when does one have to have a declaration of war to be considered a war? Here's a tip for you my young padawan! One does not need a declaration of War to have a war.

Do you know what the demographic is of Lebanon? It is 48% shia.
?

Where did you get your number? Mine said it was 35%

Where did you get your number? Mine said it was 35%

From what I'm seeing 65% are muslim with just over half of them are Shia.

So for now, I'll concede it. Point is, they are still the largest demographic in Lebanon.

Where did you get your number? Mine said it was 35%
It's Corneliu - he wrote down the numbers 1-100 on pieces of paper, put them in a hat, then pulled one out.

From what I'm seeing 65% are muslim with just over half of them are Shia.

So for now, I'll concede it. Point is, they are still the largest demographic in Lebanon.

Don't forget there is a large Druze population as well.

If I remember right there are 18 factions in the country so even in the Shiite, they break down into groups.

Not all the Shiite follow Hezbollah to the core. Much of it is due to the fact they are poor and Hezbollah provides education, medical and food......

Don't forget there is a large Druze population as well.

If I remember right there are 18 factions in the country so even in the Shiite, they break down into groups.

Not all the Shiite follow Hezbollah to the core. Much of it is due to the fact they are poor and Hezbollah provides education, medical and food......

Not to mention a good sized christian population.

Hello!!! Ports aren't just in the South. Notice the targets they are hitting. Ports have been used by Hezbollah to smuggle in weapons to be used against Israel. It makes sense to bomb those ports to deny smuggling to Hezbollah. Its smart military tactics..

So they use all these ports, roads, and the international airport. And according to wikipedia "Its strength has been variously estimated as "several thousand" [36] and "several thousand supporters and a few hundred terrorist operatives"[37]."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

They certainly seem to be everywhere, seeing as civillians only get killed by the IDF when being hugged by "terrorists" and infrastructure blown sky high because they use it......

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203908,00.html

Looks like Hezbollah doesn't want peace after all as they promise more rocket attacks. Goes to show you cannot negotiate with terrorists.


Are you surprised by this?

Hello!!! Ports aren't just in the South. Notice the targets they are hitting. Ports have been used by Hezbollah to smuggle in weapons to be used against Israel. It makes sense to bomb those ports to deny smuggling to Hezbollah. Its smart military tactics.
Sorry, but no.

What is the point in bombing the ports?
You say: To stop the smuggling in of weapons, or out of the seized soldiers.

I say: Bullshit.
You know why?

Because there is a naval blockade in place by the Israeli Navy, along the entire Lebanese coast. Nothing gets in or out without their say so.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41902000/gif/_41902716_leb_is_gaz_map629_23.gif

And where I am not going to get drawn into a fight over this with someone who has failed to understand the politics of this whole thing. Military operations are one thing. We can debate those till we are blue in the face.
The military and political aspects have to be interlinked. Otherwise, the IDF is doing as it pleases, free from governmental control.


Not to mention an Iranian missile has already been taken out before it can launch.
The fact that the ordinance was manufactured in Iran has no bearing whatsoever on the situation. No one blames China or the United States or Russia when their ordinance is used in conflicts. Merely because one place builds it, does not mean it is responsible for the later actions of its owners.

This is not a game anymore. This is a fight for survival. It is unfortunate the Lebanon is the one caught in the crossfire but war does not care who gets caught in it.
Fight for survival my ass. Was Hezb'allah that close to bringing the colossus down? :rolleyes:

Since when does one have to have a declaration of war to be considered a war? Here's a tip for you my young padawan! One does not need a declaration of War to have a war.
*blinks*
Wow. Just....wow. Ignorance must be bliss.

*snip*

Sorry but this is just plain ignorant.

But then, I don't suspect you to know much about war or how it is conducted.

Ports and airports are strategic targets that are normally the first to go in war. You may call bullshit as to the reason but that is not my problem that you decided to be in denial that weapons are smuggled into the country at those entry points.

I do not care if you like the reasons. That isn't for us to say but for the Israelis to decide. They have made their decisions to bomb these points so obviously they have their reasons why they did so. We may not fully understand the reasons why but such is the nature of war.

As to be called ignorant to what I said about declaring war....

Was the Korean War a declared war? No it wasn't but it was a war none the less. Was Vietnam a declared war? No it was not but a war none the less. Was the 1st Persian Gulf War a declared war? no it was not but it was a war none the less. The 2nd gulf war was also a war even though it was not declared.

I could go on but we also had an undeclared air war going on over Kosovo.

Hello!!! Ports aren't just in the South. Notice the targets they are hitting. Ports have been used by Hezbollah to smuggle in weapons to be used against Israel. It makes sense to bomb those ports to deny smuggling to Hezbollah. Its smart military tactics.
So, an invasion of South Lebanon widens the affair, but lots of incursions and jets destroying targets on the borders of other countries doesn't?


As opposed to the incursion by Hezbollah that started this whole affair.
Seriously. What has this got to do with anything? If you want to get into who crossed where first then this is going to get real complicated, real quickly.


There's no need for evidence when all the evidence is in the friggin press. If you pay attention to the news once in awhile you wouldn't be so ignorant as to what is really going on.
Interesting. My job is news analysis. Everyday my government pays me to follow world news.
My interests are world news and politics.
I read the front page and 'World' sections of 7 different papers, from different countries, every day. I also read the independent news sites and track across several forums to pick up news.
I am older than you, I am more experienced than you, I am more objective than you and I am better trained than you.
I suggest that you resist throwing even more insults around, they only reflect poorly on you.

And where I am not going to get drawn into a fight over this with someone who has failed to understand the politics of this whole thing. Military operations are one thing. We can debate those till we are blue in the face.
Yes, my thread on the military aspects of the situation against the political backdrop that explicitly points to the actions of the IDF being politically motivated and designed to achieve political objectives totally shows my failure to understand the politics involved. I did point this out to you.

All they have to do is make the moves to do so. Also, they can ask for help in disarming Hezbollah. Guess what? Syria won't let them do that. You think Lebanon is totally independent? Guess what? They are not.
What moves would that be? Gather at an army base? A port? An airport? Somewhere they can marshall forces before trying to get to Hezbollah? Oh no, wait, they've all been bombed. Israel has said it will not cease until Hezbollah is disarmed so the Lebanese would have to dodge IDF planes and fight the terrorists. Do you not understand that what Israel is asking of them is politically, socially and militarily impossible!
Who do you suggest that the government turn to in order to disarm a popular movement?
"Please Mr. Bush/Olhmert/Blair/Annan, could you send Foreign troops into our country to disarm a popular movement? I am sure that no one in my country would have an issue with it?" Do you have any idea what would happen if the Lebanese government invited foreign troops in and then watched as they engaged in the same sort of warfare that we are seeing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now?
And who would be stupid enough to commit their troops to that sort of operation?

Good. Israel bombing routes to keep Hezbollah from being supplied from Syria which has already been proven. Not to mention an Iranian missile has already been taken out before it can launch. This is not a game anymore.
That has cut a popular movement off from some of its supplies (the ones that would go all the way south and that don't come in over the border or are carried round the craters) for a couple of weeks.
1) Have you any idea what sort of stockpiles a robust guerrilla army will have built up? Their most serious cause of expendables is the firing of rockets into Israel and that is doing nothing to actually weaken them in the face of the IDF.
2) If you look at any of the successful guerrilla movements you will see that bombing roads and bridges won't even slow their supplies down.
As an aside, the map of the world I am looking at shows that Lebanon shares a fairly substantial border with Syria. So I am not sure what destroying the ports and air fields actually achieve in cutting supplies.

A piece of advice, their are a number of good book lists on Amazon on understanding military strategy and analysis. There are similar ones for news analysis and two particularly good ones on political analysis in the 21st Century.
I suggest you actually do some research.

Lets see...
Sorry but this is just plain ignorant.
Good refutation.


But then, I don't suspect you to know much about war or how it is conducted.
Ooh, an assumption. Even better.

Ports and airports are strategic targets that are normally the first to go in war. You may call bullshit as to the reason but that is not my problem that you decided to be in denial that weapons are smuggled into the country at those entry points.
Dodged the point.

I do not care if you like the reasons. That isn't for us to say but for the Israelis to decide. They have made their decisions to bomb these points so obviously they have their reasons why they did so. We may not fully understand the reasons why but such is the nature of war.
Well, duh.


As to be called ignorant to what I said about declaring war....

Was the Korean War a declared war? No it wasn't but it was a war none the less.
Well, the UN did ratify action- so yeah. I'm going to go with a 'Yes' on that one.

Was Vietnam a declared war?
No, not officially, legally or technically, no.

No it was not but a war none the less.
...it wasn't....but it was... ???

Was the 1st Persian Gulf War a declared war?The Second Persian Gulf War (1991ish?) Again, action was ratified against S. Hussein by the UNSC. So, again- yes. It was a war.

The 2nd gulf war was also a war even though it was not declared.
The Third Persian Gulf War? Yup. Don't you remember most of the world getting pissy at Mr. Bush for circumventing the UN and launching 'an illegal war'?

I could go on but we also had an undeclared air war going on over Kosovo.
Hence why it was called the Kosovo Conflict, not War.

Remember, the word 'War' is a nice media tidbit. Easy to explain, easy to pictorialise, easy to put into sparkly graphics and easy to drag out on air quickly. Having to explain to Joe Schlub the difference between a legal war, and a conflict would make his wee head explode.

Oooh, I'm about to piss a lot of people off.

Guess what? If a country can't keep its citizens from attacking a foreign nation, then maybe someone else SHOULD fix the problem. Fuck Lebanon, it's failed miserably in stopping Hezbollah from attacking a foreign nation. Let Israel do what it needs to do to protect itself. Besides, all this complaining means diddly. Let Syria and Iran jump in to save Lebanon. The US won't have to lift a finger. Israel has taken on the majority of the Middle East single-handedly before and they are more capable and determined now than they were then. They have some of the most skilled pilots in the world, one of the single most effective intel units (Mossad), and their army is high-tech and highly trained. I'm going to laugh all the way through this one, which may last two weeks, assuming Leb gets some help, making this coming war the longest so far. Seriously, if Lebanon isn't going to fix it, then why not let Israel?

And if you think a single European nation is going to send troops against Israel, you are out of your fucking mind. Every country in the EU is going to sit and watch, and bitch loudly but uselessly.

So, an invasion of South Lebanon widens the affair, but lots of incursions and jets destroying targets on the borders of other countries don't?

Since they haven't attacked any other country, have not launched a permanent invasion, so far things have not widen more than just between Lebanon and Israel.

Seriously. What has this got to do with anything? If you want to get into who crossed where first then this is going to get real complicated, real quickly.

Now there I won't argue. It would get quite complicated but since we are only dealing with this conflict and not the past, Hezbollah crossing the border has everything to do with it.

Interesting. My job is news analysis.

Now there's the problem.

Everyday my government pays me to follow world news.
My interests are world news and politics.

How nice. Does that mean that you sit on your butt all day in an office typing things out or do you actually go into the field to study what is going on? The news only reports half the truth. They never report the full truth. If you are really a news analysis, you of all people should know that.

I read the front page and 'World' sections of 7 different papers, from different countries, every day. I also read the independent news sites and track across several forums to pick up news.

Oh how nice. Something that I also do. Not much different is it?

I am older than you, I am more experienced than you, I am more objective than you and I am better trained than you.

It is quite obvious that you haven't learned a thing in regards to actual news coverage. Now age has nothing to do with this but actual studying of history and politics of the region. It is quite obvious that you don't. Now I'm not MidEast expert but it doesn't take a genious to figure out that someone is pushing this and it ain't Hezbollah, Lebanon, or Israel who are pushing this. Is your news analysising brought you that connection?

Yes, my thread on the military aspects of the situation against the political backdrop that explicitly points to the actions of the IDF being politically motivated and designed to achieve political objectives totally shows my failure to understand the politics involved. I did point this out to you.

But you have a slight problem. When your question got answered, you didn't like the answer. The answers in this case are simple. I stated them but yet you did not like the fact that the answers are pretty easy.

What moves would that be? Gather at an army base? A port? An airport? Somewhere they can marshall forces before trying to get to Hezbollah? Oh no, wait, they've all been bombed. Israel has said it will not cease until Hezbollah is disarmed to the Lebanese would have to dodge IDF planes and fight the terrorists. Do you not understand that what Israel is asking of them is politically, socially and militarily impossible!
Who do you suggest that the government turn to in order to disarm a popular movement?[//quote]

I guess you really do not follow the news at all do you? SYRIA IS STILL IN CONTROL BECAUSE THEY FUND HEZBOLLAH AND HEZBOLLAH RUNS SOUTH LEBANON! How many times does this have to be stated to you? Do you not know that Syria is supplying Hezbollah? Do you not know that Syria is still partially calling the shots in Lebanon? The Lebanonese government hates Syria. They won't go to them for help! You of all people should know that! Lebanon and Israel both want peace. Frankly the ball is all in Hezbollah's court but it is apparent they want to continue what they are doing and ignoring calls for cease-fire. Israel isn't going to be the first to cease-fire though I wish they would but I can also understand why they are not.

[quote]"Please Mr. Bush/Olhmert/Blair/Annan, could you send Foreign troops into our country to disarm a popular movement?

Actually, it isn't all the popular with most of Lebanon. For that we can be grateful.

I am sure that no one in my country would have an issue with it?" And who would be stupid enough to commit their troops to that sort of operation? Do you have any idea what would happen if the Lebanese government invited foreign troops in and then watched as they engaged in the same sort of warfare that we are seeing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now?

Do you have any idea what would happen if hezbollah is not disarmed? ever thought of that? You know there is more to this than you give credit for. I guess I would hand in my degree if I thought like you. Lebanon is getting hammered and all the blame is on Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran.

1) Have you any idea what sort of stockpiles a robust guerrilla army will have built up? Their most serious cause of expendables is the firing of rockets into Israel and that is doing nothing to actually weaken them in the face of the IDF.

And they have a limited number of those Katushya rockets. I'm more worried about the fact that they could possible hit Tel Aviv. Do you have any idea what the IDF could do if they decide to hit Tel Aviv?

2) If you look at any of the successful guerrilla movements you will see that bombing roads and bridges won't even slow their supplies down.

Yea you are right to a point. But this is not your typical guerrilla movement either.

A piece of advice, their are a number of good book lists on Amazon on understanding military strategy and analysis. There are similar ones for news analysis and two particularly good ones on political analysis in the 21st Century.
I suggest you actually do some research.

Hehe. Sorry my friend but to be honest with you, I suggest you are the one that needs to invest in books. Books about history and politics would do you some good. I have read military strategy books as well as military analysis books but there is one thing I have learned reading these books. That it is better to come up with your own analysis of what you are studying.

Oooh, I'm about to piss a lot of people off.

Guess what? If a country can't keep its citizens from attacking a foreign nation, then maybe someone else SHOULD fix the problem. Fuck Lebanon, it's failed miserably in stopping Hezbollah from attacking a foreign nation. Let Israel do what it needs to do to protect itself. Besides, all this complaining means diddly. Let Syria and Iran jump in to save Lebanon. The US won't have to lift a finger. Israel has taken on the majority of the Middle East single-handedly before and they are more capable and determined now than they were then. They have some of the most skilled pilots in the world, one of the single most effective intel units (Mossad), and their army is high-tech and highly trained. I'm going to laugh all the way through this one, which may last two weeks, assuming Leb gets some help, making this coming war the longest so far. Seriously, if Lebanon isn't going to fix it, then why not let Israel?

And if you think a single European nation is going to send troops against Israel, you are out of your fucking mind. Every country in the EU is going to sit and watch, and bitch loudly but uselessly.

I do believe that Lebanon wants some help but the problems lie with Syria who still has a stranglehold on Lebanon despite popular belief.

What proof is needed when that nation is at war?
And as I outlined before, their stated enemy was Hezbollah, not Lebanon.

By attacking the Lebanese military they may well have introduced a new party into the conflict, apparently unprovoked. I would expect some sort of statement about that at some point.

And as I outlined before, they're stated enemy was Hezbollah, not Lebanon.

And since Hezbollah is part of the Political environment of Lebanon, it makes perfect sense to bomb Hezbollah strongholds as well as infrastructure used by Hezbollah.

By attacking the Lebanese military they may well have introduced a new party into the conflict, apparently unprovoked. I would expect some sort of statement about that at some point.

This isn't the first time they bombed a Lebanonese military base. They hit another one a few days ago.

Since they haven't attacked any other country, have not launched a permanent invasion, so far things have not widen more than just between Lebanon and Israel.
But they are at war? They are destroying its infrastructure (as well as Hezbollah's) and they are trying to accuse Iran of being directly invovled with military troops

How nice. Does that mean that you sit on your butt all day in an office typing things out or do you actually go into the field to study what is going on? The news only reports half the truth. They never report the full truth. If you are really a news analysis, you of all people should know that.
Yes, yes it does. I get to sit on my butt and study things. I then spend my holidays going to places and finding out more things.
How do you learn?
And yes, as I have pointed out to you in the past, the press is not 100% accurate, which is why you read more than one paper, talk to more than one person and then try and put together the whole picture.
What do you do? Go everywhere and listen to everything simultaneously? First hand? Be an expert in everything?


Oh how nice. Something that I also do. Not much different is it?

I use my sources to support my arguements and to build opinions on situations. I have seen very little evidence that you do.

It is quite obvious that you haven't learned a thing in regards to actual news coverage.
Interesting...
Now age has nothing to do with this but actual studying of history and politics of the region.
Well, it does if you have had more time to study and live through some of those events yourself. But yes, the most important thing is a study and understanding of the issues at hand.
It is quite obvious that you don't.
Ah, it all makes sense now:rolleyes:
Now I'm not MidEast expert but it doesn't take a genious to figure out that someone is pushing this and it ain't Hezbollah, Lebanon, or Israel who are pushing this. Is your news analysising brought you that connection?
Yes, my study and learning about the region and the issues involved, including news analysis, led me to that conclusion.
What about you?

But you have a slight problem. When your question got answered, you didn't like the answer. The answers in this case are simple. I stated them but yet you did not like the fact that the answers are pretty easy.
True. I though your answers were simplistic, unrealistic, unsupported and biased by a prejudgment on the issue. They also failed to show any true understanding of points made by anyone holding a different view point or any real interest in finding a truth outside the one that you believed before you came to the conversation. When other people raised similar points but in a more useful way I discussed it with them and, in some cases, changed my opinion to match theirs.

I guess you really do not follow the news at all do you? SYRIA IS STILL IN CONTROL BECAUSE THEY FUND HEZBOLLAH AND HEZBOLLAH RUNS SOUTH LEBANON! How many times does this have to be stated to you? Do you not know that Syria is supplying Hezbollah? Do you not know that Syria is still partially calling the shots in Lebanon? The Lebanonese government hates Syria. They won't go to them for help! You of all people should know that!
Not sure where I said that the Lebanese government would go to Syria for help.
And yes, I am aware of the Syrian-Hezbollah connections which is why I mentioned that the destruction of the ports and airfields won't significantly impact the supplies reaching Hezbollah. Because they will come over the border from Syria.

Lebanon and Israel both want peace. Frankly the ball is all in Hezbollah's court but it is apparent they want to continue what they are doing and ignoring calls for cease-fire. Israel isn't going to be the first to cease-fire though I wish they would but I can also understand why they are not.
Yes, they do.
No, that's not how it works and of course they do.
And no, history suggests that Israel won't call a ceasefire until more of its objectives are met. Hence the timeframe statement made about the introduction of an intervention force by an IDF spokesman.

Do you have any idea what would happen if hezbollah is not disarmed? ever thought of that? You know there is more to this than you give credit for. I guess I would hand in my degree if I thought like you. Lebanon is getting hammered and all the blame is on Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran.
Yes. Their struggle would continue until the 'contested land' was returned and, because of the nature of Hezbollah and their power base, I would suspect beyond that.
But I do not see them being disarmed in any future scenario stemming from the current actions of Israel, the UN or Syria.
I have already stated how I would go about removing Hezbollah, but it is a long term process.
I think that there are more factions responsible than you name, including the UN and Israel. The immeditate roots of the problem, as has been pointed out lie in the past century.

Hehe. Sorry my friend but to be honest with you, I suggest you are the one that needs to invest in books.
Very true. The day I stop investing in books to read will be the day that I am very surprised, or far too grouchy.
However, please accept my apologies for some of my comments. They were crass and provoking.
I hate when I see other people do it so I think I am going to take sometime to chill-out, maybe do some more reading. :D

Yes, yes it does. I get to sit on my butt and study things. I then spend my holidays going to places and finding out more things.
By any chance do you work for some Foreign Affairs/State Dept/Foreign Office institution?

Just wondering, sounds awful familiar to that type of work and all.

And one thing I should mention, I don't put stock in analysists to much for like everyone else, what they say is what they believe is going to happen. Doesn't mean its right nor does it mean its wrong.

Its just an opinion.

But they are at war? They are destroying its infrastructure (as well as Hezbollah's) and they are trying to accuse Iran of being directly invovled with military troops

They are in the same type of war that we are in.

Yes, yes it does. I get to sit on my butt and study things. I then spend my holidays going to places and finding out more things.
How do you learn?

Reading everything I can get my hands.

I use my sources to support my arguements and to build opinions on situations. I have seen very little evidence that you do.

That's because alot of it is opinion. Opinions do not equal facts. I have stated that numerous times to various people.

Interesting...

Well, it does if you have had more time to study and live through some of those events yourself. But yes, the most important thing is a study and understanding of the issues at hand.

You will get no argument out of me :)

Yes, my study and learning about the region and the issues involved, including news analysis, led me to that conclusion.
What about you?

I read everything I can and study the culture of the area when possible. Its fascinating learning different cultures. I enjoy it.

True. I though your answers were simplistic, unrealistic, unsupported and biased by a prejudgment on the issue. They also failed to show any true understanding of points made by anyone holding a different view point or any real interest in finding a truth outside the one that you believed before you came to the conversation. When other people raised similar points but in a more useful way I discussed it with them and, in some cases, changed my opinion to match theirs.

Well point number 1 is never judge someone based on what's posted here.On your other points, I am not biased on this issue. Yes I do support Israel but I also support the Lebanonese people. I would love for the violence to stop right now but unfortunately, it doesn't look like that's going to happen :(

Not sure where I said that the Lebanese government would go to Syria for help.
And yes, I am aware of the Syrian-Hezbollah connections which is why I mentioned that the destruction of the ports and airfields won't significantly impact the supplies reaching Hezbollah. Because they will come over the border from Syria.

Kinda hard when the area is gotting bombed and shelled.

Yes. Their struggle would continue until the 'contested land' was returned and, because of the nature of Hezbollah and their power base, I would suspect beyond that.

Since the contested land was pulled out of over six years ago, there's nothing to contest.

But I do not see them being disarmed in any future scenario stemming from the current actions of Israel, the UN or Syria.
I have already stated how I would go about removing Hezbollah, but it is a long term process.

That's the problem. But I guess it would be inevitable that it would be a long term process.

I think that there are more factions responsible than you name, including the UN and Israel. The immeditate roots of the problem, as has been pointed out lie in the past century.

Here, I can pretty much agree with

Very true. The day I stop investing in books to read will be the day that I am very surprised, or far too grouchy.

Here I can understand that. LOL

However, please accept my apologies for some of my comments. They were crass and provoking.
I hate when I see other people do it so I think I am going to take sometime to chill-out, maybe do some more reading. :D

Its not a problem. Sometimes tempers run high on these forums and I keep forgetting that I should never judge people based on what is spoken here on a political forum. I hope you accept my apology in return for my comments towards you for the same reason.

And since Hezbollah is part of the Political environment of Lebanon, it makes perfect sense to bomb Hezbollah strongholds as well as infrastructure used by Hezbollah.



This isn't the first time they bombed a Lebanonese military base. They hit another one a few days ago.

Lebanon isn't really doing much about Hezbollah, maybe this will encourage them.