NationStates Jolt Archive

I just felt the need to point this out - Al-Zakarwi's death hasn't changed anything in Iraq, and has actually made the insurgency stronger.

Nice one, the Coalition. The attacks are getting better organised, for one thing, and better executed.

What we all need to remember is that Al-Qaeda are not the only group fighting the Coalition, and that there are probably thousands of groups around that are willing to fight.

Examples of well-planned attacks in the last week and a half alone (sorry about the use of different sources for different events, BBC News is working very slowly for men and Euronews doesn't have archived new) :


http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=detail_info&article=369847&lng=1 (it's got a video of the news footage, too)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5171486.stm

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/07/15/head_of_iraqs_olympic_committee_kidnapped/

500lb bombs do not Iraq a safe place make.

I just felt the need to point this out - Al-Zakarwi's death hasn't changed anything in Iraq, and has actually made the insurgency stronger.None of the news I was watching claimed that things would get better. Where did you hear that Zarqawi's death would make the insurgency tamer?

None of the news I was watching claimed that things would get better. Where did you hear that Zarqawi's death would make the insurgency tamer?
From almost every single right-wing American on this forum.

"Yes! We've killed him! Victory is assured!"

It's like the Tet Offensive all over again. It shows that the US just can't win.

None of the news I was watching claimed that things would get better. Where did you hear that Zarqawi's death would make the insurgency tamer?

Primarily the war hawks on NS who went along the lines of "Now that he's dead, things will get calmer"

Pretty much the same bunch who said that capturing Saddam would bring stability to Iraq.

True. I heard several reports saying this was a 'turning point' and a 'pivotal moment in the war'.. Meh. Same old shit, different day.

True. I heard several reports saying this was a 'turning point' and a 'pivotal moment in the war'.. Meh. Same old shit, different day.
I'd say it's actually got worse. They've killed someone who wasn't very competant and now they're doing better.

Still, can't wait for Eutrusca and Cornlieu to say what a great change it is, or for DesignatedMarksman to say "it was fantastic" or somesuch.

Primarily the war hawks on NS who went along the lines of "Now that he's dead, things will get calmer"

Pretty much the same bunch who said that capturing Saddam would bring stability to Iraq.

Hell, quite some time ago, I tried to explain to people how the impending operation in Fallujah wouldn't break the spine of the insurgency. What was that, like two years ago? ;)

Hell, quite some time ago, I tried to explain to people how the impending operation in Fallujah wouldn't break the spine of the insurgency. What was that, like two years ago? ;)
About a day after Bush won, yeah.

The troops were told to attack as soon as Bush won and not a second before, for some reason... :rolleyes:

I'd say it's actually got worse. They've killed someone who wasn't very competant and now they're doing better.

Still, can't wait for Eutrusca and Cornlieu to say what a great change it is, or for DesignatedMarksman to say "it was fantastic" or somesuch.Oh, I'd personally say it's fantastic that he's dead. I don't miss him in the least, I just didn't have any illusions that he wouldn't get replaced.

Oh, I'd personally say it's fantastic that he's dead. I don't miss him in the least, I just didn't have any illusions that he wouldn't get replaced.
Don't you think that maybe it's better to have someone rubbish in charge of killing other people, rather than someone talented?

Don't you think that maybe it's better to have someone rubbish in charge of killing other people, rather than someone talented?

Don't you think it would be a better idea to kill both, rather than sit back and try to figure out who is more talented.

I mean, it's not like this is Insurgent Idol or something.

Considering the rate of casualties for insurgents, and the relative rate of casualties for the US, at this rate, Iraq would be depopulated long before we ran out of Americans.

Don't you think it would be a better idea to kill both, rather than sit back and try to figure out who is more talented.
No, if you can see that someone's crap, then leave them be.
I mean, it's not like this is Insurgent Idol or something.

Considering the rate of casualties for insurgents, and the relative rate of casualties for the US, at this rate, Iraq would be depopulated long before we ran out of Americans.
Their casualty rates have fallen since Zaqarwi was killed. At the rate of improvement of their skills, the US are buggered in a couple of years' time.

Hell, quite some time ago, I tried to explain to people how the impending operation in Fallujah wouldn't break the spine of the insurgency. What was that, like two years ago? ;)

Well, you see, thing is, with people like Corny and DK, they've got this mantra that they recite everyday. It goes like this.

"Liberals lie. Liberals are dirty. Anyone who does not agree with me is a liberal. And reality is a liberal"

:p

No, if you can see that someone's crap, then leave them be.

*looks at President Bush.*

Um...

*looks at President Bush.*

Um...
I mean "at killing people". Bush is not crap at killing people, he has perfected the art of annihilating bystanders and freedom fighters alike, and taking the survivors to camp X-ray.

...
What we all need to remember is that Al-Qaeda are not the only group fighting the Coalition, and that there are probably thousands of groups around that are willing to fight.
...

Yep. Only a matter of time before the U.S. is leading the "True Believers" and the other side are known as "The Coalition."

Yep. Only a matter of time before the U.S. is leading the "True Believers" and the other side are known as "The Coalition."
Indeed.

Their casualty rates have fallen since Zaqarwi was killed. At the rate of improvement of their skills, the US are buggered in a couple of years' time.

It's still around 40 to 1. And that is with insurgents trying to stick to using IEDs.

It's still around 40 to 1. And that is with insurgents trying to stick to using IEDs.
It's falling, though... that's the point...

It's falling, though... that's the point...

Sorry - what is the point?

Do you think the US is running out of... expendables no one is ever going to mention by NAME ( they should - but won't ( mention 'em) ) until 30 years later?

Not with a huge number of latino immigrants.

I just felt the need to point this out - Al-Zakarwi's death hasn't changed anything in Iraq, and has actually made the insurgency stronger.

Nice one, the Coalition. The attacks are getting better organised, for one thing, and better executed.

What we all need to remember is that Al-Qaeda are not the only group fighting the Coalition, and that there are probably thousands of groups around that are willing to fight.

Examples of well-planned attacks in the last week and a half alone (sorry about the use of different sources for different events, BBC News is working very slowly for men and Euronews doesn't have archived new) :


http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=detail_info&article=369847&lng=1 (it's got a video of the news footage, too)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5171486.stm

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/07/15/head_of_iraqs_olympic_committee_kidnapped/

500lb bombs do not Iraq a safe place make.

i'd say that turning sections over to the Iraqi army and police force Indicates great progress.

And what you failed to note or even mention is that the Iraqi minister of war
declared war on the Insurgency and the Iraqi's with US in support have been sweeping through otherwise untouched areas of insurgent support and activity. Aside from convincing a bunch of Sunni's to join the government and an offer of amnesty..all this has done is increase the level of desperation for the insurgents ..so what do expect them to do ..wave a white flag ?

They are being ratted out by the people who they think are supporting them and being hunted down by Iraqi's ...I call that progress.

You want to make the mistake of playing with your dumb ass numbers..go for it.
Events are much more telling and carry much more significance.The Insurgents are running out of places to hide as more Iraqi's get trained and start going to work...they KNOW ..their country much better than the US ..and their are a whole lot more of them..(150,000 US ) over 200,000 so far. In a country of 26 million . The Sunni's that where with Saddam are fighting for their lives ..they represent the majority of the insurgents .
What do expect THEM to do ? Just walk up and say " please shoot me or hang me " ?

So what happened to Al Queda in Iraq ? They have been somewhat busy blowing up shiite civilians trying to show they still have some significance..but they are mostly spending alot of time trying not to get dead . Thats what happens when you get turned in as a favor to the new government..who do you think pointed out Zarquawi ???? So now Al Queda...is on its own fighting everyone.

So when will the left wing..who of all people you would think support Democracy...start showing support for the millions of Iraqi's who voted and are trying to stabilise THEIR country ?

Instead of this typical liberal doom and gloom bullshit..that ignores every positive aspect of whats ACTUALLY going on .


As long as Iraqi's see progress from their government..and Iraqi soldiers and police fighting and winning , its a downhill battle for the insurgents..they have already lost and we are witnessing their slow death .
They are running out of space out of numbers and out of time .


Show me differently Mr. gloom .

...
Instead of this typical liberal doom and gloom bullshit..that ignores every positive aspect of whats ACTUALLY going on .

A rising death toll, is what's going on. I love the Democracy thing, but if this is a war on terror, it's being lost.

Show me differently Mr. gloom .
I'm not speaking for Mr Gloom. I'm Mr. I Told You So.

A rising death toll, is what's going on. I love the Democracy thing, but if this is a war on terror, it's being lost.


I'm not speaking for Mr Gloom. I'm Mr. I Told You So.


Tell me again how it is being lost, Mr I Told You So.

At 40:1, the Arabs run out of muslims before the Yankies run out of Latinos.

From almost every single right-wing American on this forum.

"Yes! We've killed him! Victory is assured!"

It's like the Tet Offensive all over again. It shows that the US just can't win.

Ohh the Tet offensive. Learn your history Yootopia. The Tet offensive was a disaster for the Vietnamese and not for the United States despite what the Press tried to portray it as.

As for this...most of us knew that things will not get better right away.

Also, did you know that an entire provence has been handed back to the Iraqis? Not just a town but an entire Provence?

It's falling, though... that's the point...

Effectively no. Even Zarqawi's own notes indicate that the insurgents will run out of people long before they achieve anything at all.

I'd say it's actually got worse. They've killed someone who wasn't very competant and now they're doing better.

Still, can't wait for Eutrusca and Cornlieu to say what a great change it is, or for DesignatedMarksman to say "it was fantastic" or somesuch.

It was a turning point. No doubt about that. Just like Midway was the Turning point in WWII in the Pacific. Stalingrad on the Eastern Front in europe.

Just because something is a turning point/pivotal moment, doesn't mean things will get better right away.

At 40:1, the Arabs run out of muslims before the Yankies run out of Latinos.

Dude, your need to slap me down at any cost has secured you a place on my sig. :D

Dude, your need to slap me down at any cost has secured you a place on my sig. :D

YaY!

YaY!

Has anyone ever told you you're slightly odd?

5 years into the GWAT and still don't understand the nature of it.

Plus there is one thing that you (hawks) completely blank out: it's not about who's running out of people earlier. The Insurgency side (all who hate the USA) will keep sacrificing themselves until the last man. The US population is not going to be willing to do that. There will be a casualty treshold where the American people will say: "That's it! What do we care about democracy in Iraq...it's our sons and daughters giving their lives over there." Where are we currently? Somewhere between 2500 and 3000, if I'm not mistaken. Plus thousands injured and quite a few mutilated (thanks to the IED). Who much of this will the American population take? It didn't make the oil cheaper. You're still hovering around Orange Alert. Troops need to stay longer than planed. The country is spending billions on a war, that could be spent for issues within the country. At the moment Bush and friends have the media under control. Will that still be the same when the death toll reached 5000?

My prognosis: it will start to calm down a bit over time. Maybe 3-5 years. Then the coalition will start to withdraw their troops. Coruption will take over. Secterian fighting will resume. Civil war. Iran will use it's Shiite influence...and there you are, you have excactely the opposite of what was planned.

Take me up on it in 2015! ;)

Has anyone ever told you you're slightly odd?

I remember when I was slightly odd. *sighs wistfully*

Then I became completely odd. Still, I have fond memories of those early days. :)

I remember when I was slightly odd. *sighs wistfully*

Then I became completely odd. Still, I have fond memories of those early days. :)
Everyones knows YOU are odd.... :p

I remember when I was slightly odd. *sighs wistfully*

Then I became completely odd. Still, I have fond memories of those early days. :)
LG, he was talking to BogMarsh.

Everyones knows YOU are odd.... :p
I bet Chuck Norris doesn't.;)

LG, he was talking to BogMarsh.

This Is A Public Announcement

MSTREETD IS A LADY...well, woman anyway.. lady might be stretching it

This Is A Public Announcement

MSTREETD IS A LADY...well, woman anyway.. lady might be stretching it
POSI cares not!

Actually, this is my first time seeing you here.

POSI cares not!

Actually, this is my first time seeing you here.

I've seen you about ;)

there should be a topic of how the chicken ,give life to stupidity,thought:upyours:

I've seen you about ;)
O Noes!

Prolly cuz I go to bed just before you come on, and when I come on your posts are covered with spam and Chuck Norris facts.

O Noes!

Prolly cuz I go to bed just before you come on, and when I come on your posts are covered with spam and Chuck Norris facts.
alas, I do spam, but dont we all

Chuck Noris facts are not my specialist subject - I know none!

Ohh the Tet offensive. Learn your history Yootopia. The Tet offensive was a disaster for the Vietnamese and not for the United States despite what the Press tried to portray it as.
I know, it's not like the VC instantly regained its numbers, or that it was finally descovered that Westmoreland (sorry, that name might be wrong) and his staff were liars and that the war could basically never be won or anything...

Of course, being on the losing side slightly distorts one's views of the events.
As for this...most of us knew that things will not get better right away.
There were many people championing it as a "turning point" in the War on Terror.

Which is true, it's turned from bad to worse.
Also, did you know that an entire provence has been handed back to the Iraqis? Not just a town but an entire Provence?
All that means is that the Brits can't be arsed any more. Our recruitment levels into the army are very low, much the "required rates". Public support is minimal at best.

So Blair reckons that giving a small, quite peaceful province to the Iraqi Army will pacificy people, which it hasn't at all.

I know, it's not like the VC instantly regained its numbers, or that it was finally descovered that Westmoreland (sorry, that name might be wrong) and his staff were liars and that the war could basically never be won or anything...

Of course, being on the losing side slightly distorts one's views of the events.

And yet we never lost a battle in Vietnam. It was on the Political front which was lost. Not the military front. I suggest you actually learn that.

There were many people championing it as a "turning point" in the War on Terror.

Which is true, it's turned from bad to worse.

:rolleyes: And things got worse in the Pacific as well before they got better. Look at Guadalcanal. Look at the Solomons. Look at the Philippines. Every war has turning points and things got worse before they got better. Its a fact of life. Zarqawi's death was a turning point. The elections were a turning point. When your enemy becomes despirit, it becomes more dangerous. Shall I point to the Kamakazi's to illustrate my point?

All that means is that the Brits can't be arsed any more. Our recruitment levels into the army are very low, much the "required rates". Public support is minimal at best.

This has got to be the most dumbest thing you have ever said and you have said some pretty dumb things.

So Blair reckons that giving a small, quite peaceful province to the Iraqi Army will pacificy people, which it hasn't at all.

Or perhaps the powers that be knew that they were able to govern themselves? The troops just pulled back but will be back in there if the need arises. But the province itself is running things themselves and defending themselves.

Nice to see though that you have to try and turn it into some sort of political attack. But that is what I come to expect from you now.

This Is A Public Announcement

MSTREETD IS A LADY...well, woman anyway.. lady might be stretching it


Anyway, she's talking with me!
:fluffle:

Has anyone ever told you you're slightly odd?

Some people haven't - yet.

I'm working on that.

But anyway, I like getting sigged. What did he say?

And yet we never lost a battle in Vietnam. It was on the Political front which was lost. Not the military front. I suggest you actually learn that.
Doesn't that just make it worse? Never lost a battle but still lost the war?

Its ancient history- the United States lost the Vietnam War/Conflict. Deal with it- as you Americans chums are so fond of saying. ;)

Doesn't that just make it worse? Never lost a battle but still lost the war?

Its ancient history- the United States lost the Vietnam War/Conflict. Deal with it- as you Americans chums are so fond of saying. ;)


The Americans deal with it by force. Don't ueber-encourage them. Dangerous.

And yet we never lost a battle in Vietnam. It was on the Political front which was lost. Not the military front. I suggest you actually learn that.
Yeah, the US must be utterly gutted. It "beat" the Vietcong and NVA at pretty much every turn on the battlefield and still lost the war overall.

Bit of a waste of money that could have gone better spent, on, say, sorting out the huge slum problems at the time.
:rolleyes: And things got worse in the Pacific as well before they got better. Look at Guadalcanal. Look at the Solomons. Look at the Philippines. Every war has turning points and things got worse before they got better. Its a fact of life. Zarqawi's death was a turning point. The elections were a turning point. When your enemy becomes despirit, it becomes more dangerous. Shall I point to the Kamakazi's to illustrate my point?
I don't think that the Iraqis are desperate, I think that it's more that they've learned how to fight a media war, and that's the kind of war that the US has yet to win.

The Iraqi government has little or no popular support and it can't rule the green zone of Baghdad, let alone the whole state.
This has got to be the most dumbest thing you have ever said and you have said some pretty dumb things.
"That's dumb because war fatigue just doesn't exist", right?

What was stupid about my comment, exactly?
Or perhaps the powers that be knew that they were able to govern themselves? The troops just pulled back but will be back in there if the need arises. But the province itself is running things themselves and defending themselves.
The Iraqi government can't rule Baghdad and the surrounding area, I have no idea how it's going to fare with a whole province.

Let's see, as a suitable reference, how Vietnamisation went.

You can arm a government to the teeth, but if it's corrupt and has no support, and it can't afford to pay its own soldiers, then it's going to lose the war.

Yootopia, you really do not know what is going on, on the ground in Iraq. All you got is what you are getting from the press who exagerate everything.

on top of that, the people do want a democracy in iraq.

So why don't you take your anti-americanism elsewhere and actually learn a few facts about what is going on in Iraq and not what you are being spoonfed by the press.

Yootopia, you really do not know what is going on, on the ground in Iraq. All you got is what you are getting from the press who exagerate everything.

on top of that, the people do want a democracy in iraq.

So why don't you take your anti-americanism elsewhere and actually learn a few facts about what is going on in Iraq and not what you are being spoonfed by the press.

Pray tell, what is your unbiased first hand account of the 'true' situation in Iraq? Enlighten us as to your source- perhaps you live there these days?

Yootopia, you really do not know what is going on, on the ground in Iraq. All you got is what you are getting from the press who exagerate everything.
Ah, of course... the difference being I read vaguely left-wing newspapers and watch Euronews, and you read right-wing newspapers and watch FOX.

Clearly, yours is an unbiased source and mine only reports lies.
on top of that, the people do want a democracy in iraq.
Their voter turnout says otherwise.
So why don't you take your anti-americanism elsewhere and actually learn a few facts about what is going on in Iraq and not what you are being spoonfed by the press.
Ah right.

FOX : "This is Joe Stereotype reporting for FOX News... everything is fine and dandy, it's all gooood".

You : "Phewph... there go my worries!"

So what happened to Al Queda in Iraq ?

they were never a significant part of the resistance, and only existed at all due to a u.s. psyops campaign?

So what happened to Al Queda in Iraq ?.
The people at Fort Meade realised that the US population don't really buy that crap any more?

The people at Fort Meade realised that the US population don't really buy that crap any more?


*checks the stats for McDonalds*

Yooto - have another guess, please.

so why is the insurgency not diying?

so why is the insurgency not diying?

ied is diy

Yootopia, you really do not know what is going on, on the ground in Iraq. All you got is what you are getting from the press who exagerate everything.

Um, to be honest, I think that Yootopia is actually understating the case a little. Two of my friends recently returned from serving in Iraq and they were very unhappy about the situation there. Security anywhere other than army compounds is a joke. They can't rely on the local Iraqi forces (army or police) to carry out any operation, except looting. In Baghdad residents have been told not to obey the orders of the army or police unless US Coalition forces are there too. The few good units are husbanded by the US so that they don't get caught up in the internecine warfare that is going on. Support for the actual government (rather than for the idea that government represents) is so low as to be an actual joke around the camp. Civilian deaths are up and there is no cogent plan from high command on how to deal with them. Journalists are tightly controlled and, particularly in Britain, D-Notices are the norm rather than the exception.

All they would hear when they were out on patrol were people asking them to go home. When you are out risking your lives and the lives of your mates for people who don't even want you there and the reasons/plans for being their are fuzzier than a mirage then I think things are as bad as Yootopia says. Personally, I think that they are notably worse.

It's still around 40 to 1. And that is with insurgents trying to stick to using IEDs.
Russia's kill ratio in Afghanistan was 40:1. They killed one million Afghans and still lost, because the people looking after the economics of it, were dumbasses. Sounds familiar.

Russia's kill ratio in Afghanistan was 40:1. They killed one million Afghans and still lost, because the people looking after the economics of it, were dumbasses. Sounds familiar.

Remember that the USSR was also involved in heavily spending on the Cold War.

Remember that the USSR was also involved in heavily spending on the Cold War.
So, the US isn't heavily spending on this war?!

Remember that the USSR was also involved in heavily spending on the Cold War.
Comedy gold. :D

Um, to be honest, I think that Yootopia is actually understating the case a little. Two of my friends recently returned from serving in Iraq and they were very unhappy about the situation there. Security anywhere other than army compounds is a joke. They can't rely on the local Iraqi forces (army or police) to carry out any operation, except looting. In Baghdad residents have been told not to obey the orders of the army or police unless US Coalition forces are there too. The few good units are husbanded by the US so that they don't get caught up in the internecine warfare that is going on. Support for the actual government (rather than for the idea that government represents) is so low as to be an actual joke around the camp. Civilian deaths are up and there is no cogent plan from high command on how to deal with them. Journalists are tightly controlled and, particularly in Britain, D-Notices are the norm rather than the exception.

All they would hear when they were out on patrol were people asking them to go home. When you are out risking your lives and the lives of your mates for people who don't even want you there and the reasons/plans for being their are fuzzier than a mirage then I think things are as bad as Yootopia says. Personally, I think that they are notably worse.

Corny of course has his daddy in the military and has studied military history on his own. Therefore he knows more about Iraq than your two military buddies who actually served a tour in Iraq, and knows more about the war than even Colin Powell and the retired military generals who said Dumbsfeld is basically an incompetent, obstinate piece of shit.

:D

Corny of course has his daddy in the military and has studied military history on his own. Therefore he knows more about Iraq than your two military buddies who actually served a tour in Iraq, and knows more about the war than even Colin Powell and the retired military generals who said Dumbsfeld is basically an incompetent, obstinate piece of shit.

:D

Things are getting better slowly. Yes they want us out. Hell I want us out but what most people know is that if we leave, chaos will ensue. Not what we are seeing now which is bad enough.

Things are getting better and really, the trouble spots are in THREE PROVENCES. Those three provences are sunni populated.

Things are getting better and really, the trouble spots are in THREE PROVENCES. Those three provences are sunni populated.
Hehe, yeah, the western desert is a quiet place, hardly any violence. That must mean someone is doing something right!

Hehe, yeah, the western desert is a quiet place, hardly any violence. That must mean someone is doing something right!

No, it just goes to show you that if you manage to kill almost everyone, things get really, really quiet.