NationStates Jolt Archive


When Will They Stop???

Amadenijad
17-07-2006, 04:10
I cant even begin to tell you how tired i am of the middle east. Iran is trying to build nukes, syria is trying to get rid of israel, israel is trying to get rid of syria, israel is invading lebanon, iraq is...well its iraq...i'll let you people decide what to think there. But when will this whole thing end. What the hell is the problem with jews? Why do the muslims hate them so much. When will Bin Laden realize that he cant win because nobody will ever negotiate, when will hamas and hezzbolah learn the same lesson. Why cant israel just back off. They've already beaten Lebanon to a pulp and set the country back 50 years. Dont these countries and groups realize that what they're doing has been completely worthless so far. There is no base to it, they're going to fight, kill thousands, sign a peace treaty, which they will break in 5 years and we'll be back to where we were at the beginning. Its a pointless cycle that will never end.
The Atlantian islands
17-07-2006, 04:12
Yes...and come to think of it...things were peaceful (for the middle east) until Palestine and Lebanon attacked the country of Israel.

So no, there cant be peace until the arabs learn.
Amadenijad
17-07-2006, 04:16
Yes...and come to think of it...things were peaceful (for the middle east) until Palestine and Lebanon attacked the country of Israel.

So no, there cant be peace until the arabs learn.


im glad to see that people do think that this isnt israel's fault. I was thinking that since bush said that it was israels right to defend itself that instantly people would start thinking that israel started this mess, just so they could disagree.
The Atlantian islands
17-07-2006, 04:55
im glad to see that people do think that this isnt israel's fault. I was thinking that since bush said that it was israels right to defend itself that instantly people would start thinking that israel started this mess, just so they could disagree.
There are many who agree with me, its just that this forum is overloaded by the left..so it doesnt seem like it.

Anyway, geopolitically, countries that have outspokenly agree with me are America, Canada, Australia, Germany, Denmark, India, Romania, Saudi Arabia and maybe Japan and Greece.
DesignatedMarksman
17-07-2006, 04:55
Whenever the Arabs learn to not blow up Israelis. If they didn't do that you'd see a whole lot more anti-israeli things going on.
Wilgrove
17-07-2006, 04:59
The only way this will end if either Israel wiped off the face of the Map, or if Syria, Iran, and Palestine is wiped off the map.

Me personally, I want the entire middle east off the map, but that's just me.
The Atlantian islands
17-07-2006, 05:01
The only way this will end if either Israel wiped off the face of the Map, or if Syria, Iran, and Palestine is wiped off the map.

Me personally, I want the entire middle east off the map, but that's just me.
But that would require janitors to do the wipping...and that would require hiring illegals....So you see, even that option isnt perfect.
Eutrusca
17-07-2006, 05:03
The only way this will end if either Israel wiped off the face of the Map, or if Syria, Iran, and Palestine is wiped off the map.

Me personally, I want the entire middle east off the map, but that's just me.
I think we should pave it over and turn it into temporary parking for Japanese cars. :D
Wilgrove
17-07-2006, 05:05
I think we should pave it over and turn it into temporary parking for Japanese cars. :D

nah We need the world's biggest Wal-Mart!
Perite
17-07-2006, 05:06
well, if you think about it, things aren't going to be peaceful in the middle east for a long while. with so many differing belief systems, do you think they'll ever find enough common ground to remain peaceful for more than a few years at a time?

and you're right, atlantian islands and amadenijad...this wasn't israel's fault. they were provoked, but it was bound to happen sooner or later
The Atlantian islands
17-07-2006, 05:09
well, if you think about it, things aren't going to be peaceful in the middle east for a long while. with so many differing belief systems, do you think they'll ever find enough common ground to remain peaceful for more than a few years at a time?

and you're right, atlantian islands and amadenijad...this wasn't israel's fault. they were provoked, but it was bound to happen sooner or later

Ahh, good post. I didnt even think of it that way. You should post more, as you seem to know what you're talking about.:)
Anglachel and Anguirel
17-07-2006, 05:10
"Wasn't Israel's fault"...

People need to admit that neither side is right and both are fucked up. Israel takes land from Palestinians by force, and Palestinians decide to blow something up in retaliation. Then Israel tightens security, blows up some Palestinian things, and it keeps on like that.
The Atlantian islands
17-07-2006, 05:16
"Wasn't Israel's fault"...

People need to admit that neither side is right and both are fucked up. Israel takes land from Palestinians by force, and Palestinians decide to blow something up in retaliation. Then Israel tightens security, blows up some Palestinian things, and it keeps on like that.
Actually, you're wrong. Israel hasnt been taking Palestinian land and has actually, recently, GIVEN UP land to the Palestinians...and, in return for Israel giving Palestine some land, the Palestinians attack Israel...:rolleyes:
Kinda Sensible people
17-07-2006, 05:20
"Wasn't Israel's fault"...

People need to admit that neither side is right and both are fucked up. Israel takes land from Palestinians by force, and Palestinians decide to blow something up in retaliation. Then Israel tightens security, blows up some Palestinian things, and it keeps on like that.

^ Quoted for total and complete accuracy.

Nobody is an angel in the middle east. Both Isreal and the Arab nations around them have acted to make things worse.
Eutrusca
17-07-2006, 05:25
nah We need the world's biggest Wal-Mart!
Visit the Mall of the Middle East! :D
Perite
17-07-2006, 05:26
Actually, you're wrong. Israel hasnt been taking Palestinian land and has actually, recently, GIVEN UP land to the Palestinians...and, in return for Israel giving Palestine some land, the Palestinians attack Israel...:rolleyes:

can't argue with that. now why would someone attack after land is graciously given back to them? sounds like only one side is fucked up to me
Eutrusca
17-07-2006, 05:27
^ Quoted for total and complete accuracy.

Nobody is an angel in the middle east. Both Isreal and the Arab nations around them have acted to make things worse.
What newspaper do you read? What has Isreal done to "make things worse," other than attempt to defend itself?
Wilgrove
17-07-2006, 05:28
Visit the Mall of the Middle East! :D

The only mall with it's own Airport!
Eutrusca
17-07-2006, 05:31
The only mall with it's own Airport!
LMAO! AND its own port! :D
Adistan
17-07-2006, 05:35
Ah, the good old Israel vs Palestinians (who is right?) discussion. There is no answer to that, because it heavily depends on the paradigm. Imo the 'wrong doing' was when Israel was founded. Not because I don't want a Jewish nation (I don't care), but because it was founded by taking land from people who most definitely don't like Jews. I mean, what were they thinking? But then, even this argument can be countered by historical claims, etc., etc. Same thing goes with the way the 'war' is fought: many consider the suicide bombers terrorists...what happened to the good old (and heroised) freedom fighter?

Both sides are too fundamentalistic and stubborn in their approach to the situation, that I could see any peaceful way out of this. If you look at the way the borders in Europe were formed, you might see how the ME might be approached: by full-out war. Europeans slaughtered themselves for those borders...until we could say, fine....enough is enough...that's were we stand now and let's call it a day (there are only a few disputed regions left. And the disputes in the Balkans is because they've been kept from fighting it out for almost the last century ). I think this needs to happen in the ME - without any Western support for either side. I reckon, at the moment Israel would kick some butt - all around itself. But hei, maybe that's the way it needs to be in order to progress out of this situation.
One of the reasons that I see why the US has such a hard time in Iraq and Afghanistan is, because they fight wars where they're not supposed to hurt. How can you fight a war without hurting? It's absolutely stupid. Either you go to war and kill until you WON or you don't. (I still believe they shouldn't have...but that's my opinon.) Those half-measured things simply don't work.

So, as hard as it may be/sound: I think the West should keep its finger out of the situation and let them have their brawl. The winner takes it all.
Adistan
17-07-2006, 05:39
can't argue with that. now why would someone attack after land is graciously given back to them? sounds like only one side is fucked up to me

Hahaha. There you have objectivity.

See it this way: a guy much stronger than you, walks into your house, destroys everything in it, builds a huge fence around it so that you can't get out to work and starves half of you family. Then leaves your house and asks you to be greatful that he's leaving.

Yeah, right...
Ultraextreme Sanity
17-07-2006, 05:40
Well let irrael wipe out hizbolla in sothern Lebenon..that will help both lebenon and the world . hamas is what holds back the Palestinians and will have israel going back inti the west bank and gaza to hunt them and kill them .

That being said..Hizbolla and hamas are doing the bidding if syria and iran..Iran gets hizbolla to attack Israel on the very day that the EU set as a deadline for them to answer the Nuke propossal..So Europe here's your answer from Iran.... NEGOTIATE THIS ...Then Iran publicly claims a bond with Syria..." an attack obn Syria is an attack on Iran "...


So who should the UN and the rest of the world be condemning ?

ISRAEL ?

Or the terror states of Iran and Syria along with the terrorist organizations THAT BROKE THE PEACE ..and attacked Israel .

I could care less how leftist you think you are , if you have half a brain you should be able to figure out that peace will benifit the civilzed and the democracies...not those looking to erase a nation off the map .

Stop firing missiles and rockets and recognize Israel ..then sit down like men and work out the details .

Or die like dogs for no damm good reason and take your sponsor states down with you .
The Atlantian islands
17-07-2006, 05:41
So, as hard as it may be/sound: I think the West should keep its finger out of the situation and let them have their brawl. The winner takes it all.

That doesnt work, Israel has won tons of times and it still hasnt solved much...The arabs have to become civilized and realize that they are going to have to tolerate a Jewish Nation in the Middle East. That, and only that, is the only way to peace.
Asadia
17-07-2006, 05:53
That doesnt work, Israel has won tons of times and it still hasnt solved much...The arabs have to become civilized and realize that they are going to have to tolerate a Jewish Nation in the Middle East. That, and only that, is the only way to peace.

The only way for peace is to return the entire west bank to the palestinians. And allow them to build up a state.
Eutrusca
17-07-2006, 05:54
can't argue with that. now why would someone attack after land is graciously given back to them? sounds like only one side is fucked up to me

Hahaha. There you have objectivity.

See it this way: a guy much stronger than you, walks into your house, destroys everything in it, builds a huge fence around it so that you can't get out to work and starves half of you family. Then leaves your house and asks you to be greatful that he's leaving.

Yeah, right...
Better yet ... a mob forces you and your family from your home where you have lived for untold generations. You wander the landscape, looking for a place to live. Your family gets separated, people revile you for something you didn't do. Years later, you get a chance to move back home, but the only thing left is the land itself and someone else has been squatting on it. After a long legal battle ( and some fist-fights ) you move back in, build a new house that's better than any of your neighbors' and invite all your family back home.

But now, the relatives of those you had to evict from your land begin harassing you, even killing some of your children.

What would YOU do?
Adistan
17-07-2006, 05:55
hamas is what holds back the Palestinians

Just to remind you! The Palestinians actually VOTED for Hamas. This is one of the most hilarious things I've seen Bush do: forcing the Palestinians to vote. Great, it's a fundamentalist democracy now. It just shows that a) democracy-building only works in countries with a fundamental basis for democracy and b) that the Bush regime has NO clue about what is going on in the ME and how to solve the problem. They seriously thought 'if we give them democracy, they are going to be nice'. How STUPID can you be. Really. Again: (and this is not Israel-bashing, I basically don't care eitherway - it's just stating a fact) Israel has been occupying (whether justyfied or not doesn't matter) Palestinian land for decades, destroying everything (most importantly any basis of an economy that was there...and therefore all future prospects) and sending huge masses into refugee camps. Now we give the Palestinians democracy and expect them to say: "COOOOOOOL. DEMOCRACY. Way to go. The West is the best. And because we have democracy, we're going to forget that we have no future and that all those people got killed. I mean, who cares...we've got democracy now."
Asadia
17-07-2006, 05:59
May I remind everyone, that Most palestinians didnt vote for hamas in order to destroy Israel, but rather for their promises to stamp out corruption, and try to build something remotely close to an economy.
Perite
17-07-2006, 06:00
late reply to you, adistan....
yes, israel's foundation was not a great move, but with enough political sway and vocal support anyone can get their own nation. but the freedom fighter you're talking about all depends on your point of view. were our american heroes during the american revolution not terrorists in the eyes of the royal crown? i could go on and on with examples, but there's no point. if you share the same beliefs as a terrorist, that's your freedom fighter. if not, they're a terrorist and most likely the scum of the earth, in your opinion.

yes, there's no real peaceful way out of this, but full-blown war is not necessary. it just took europeans a while to come to their sense and decide that there really was no point to all that fighting since no progress was ever really made. the ME needs to sort this out themselves, yes, but what are the chances of that? the entire world is in everyone else's business and that's never going to change. america tries fight a politically correct war ever since the vietnam embarrassment. with that hanging low over our heads, we have to relearn how to fight well and fight smart. but i doubt that will happen any time soon.
The Atlantian islands
17-07-2006, 06:01
May I remind everyone, that Most palestinians didnt vote for hamas in order to destroy Israel, but rather for their promises to stamp out corruption, and try to build something remotely close to an economy.
Do you actually know that for a fact? Does it actually say that in a credible news source as a fact?

And anyway, would you vote for the Republicans if they said they promise to pull out of Iraq, solve world hunger, primove education and destroy Canada? I doubt it.
Adistan
17-07-2006, 06:02
Eutrusca: As I said in my original post: there is the historic argument. In my opinon that has no value at all. Otherwise, we should give Europe back the Romans, becasue they basically civilised it. And the White and Black Americans should all go back where they came from, because they certainly don't belong onto that continent. Same with Australians. It's funny how the historic argument is always brought up in the Israel discussion (the Jews haven't lived in the region for ages now - I mean, as a peoples...obviously there always were a few Jews around...that's Diaspora for you) - but so easily overlooked at home. People and borders have always moved - there is no intristic right to a particular land. That's as simple as it is. And hei, I say, let Israel fight for it. Fair enough. But don't 'give it' to them, just because they've lived there some thousands years ago. (Otherwise leave the USA right now and leave it to the Native Americans!)
Asadia
17-07-2006, 06:03
Do you actually know that for a fact? Does it actually say that in a credible news source as a fact?

There are some statistics, which I once saw, only some 11% voted for Hamas based on their political agenda. The rest were for Religious, and economical reasons.
I'm trying to find the source.
Asadia
17-07-2006, 06:09
Heres one source. Its not the best. Im trying to find a statistical source.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-hamas27.html
The Atlantian islands
17-07-2006, 06:12
Heres one source. Its not the best. Im trying to find a statistical source.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-hamas27.html

Oh. dude come on...Its gonna take more than word-of-arab-mouth to convince me.------ "Hamas' surprise victory in the Palestinian legislative elections was more a vote against corruption in the current government than an endorsement of the group's controversial politics, members of Chicago's Palestinian community:rolleyes: said Thursday."

Puh-lease.
The four perfect cats
17-07-2006, 06:13
I cant even begin to tell you how tired i am of the middle east. Iran is trying to build nukes, syria is trying to get rid of israel, israel is trying to get rid of syria, israel is invading lebanon, iraq is...well its iraq...i'll let you people decide what to think there. But when will this whole thing end. What the hell is the problem with jews? Why do the muslims hate them so much. When will Bin Laden realize that he cant win because nobody will ever negotiate, when will hamas and hezzbolah learn the same lesson. Why cant israel just back off. They've already beaten Lebanon to a pulp and set the country back 50 years. Dont these countries and groups realize that what they're doing has been completely worthless so far. There is no base to it, they're going to fight, kill thousands, sign a peace treaty, which they will break in 5 years and we'll be back to where we were at the beginning. Its a pointless cycle that will never end.

You expect logic, rationality, common sense where these things are concerned? You can only reason with reasonable people. These people aren't reasonable, just as, as you have stated, the situation isn't reasonable. When people perceive themselves as being backed into a corner, they will attack not talk.
Adistan
17-07-2006, 06:16
I completely agree on the 'Freedom Fighter' issue. It's obviously a point of view. However, these days the word terrorist is sinonimous (? - you know what I mean) with 'pure evil'. And it's just not as simple as that. (What do you expect - with a simpleton as head of the most influencial and powerful nations...such simplification are bound to make the round.) AND it's also a threat to human, legal and civial rights. Good example here in Oz the other week. Guy gets arrested on the new anti-terrorism laws for consipracy to blow up a building. Ok, there was no bomb. Well, there was also no plan. Ahm, there was no material. And there is nobody else involved. What is the reason for his arrest? He had a leaflet from a fundamentalist islamic group in his house. It took the reporter of the news report a full 10 minutes to locate it online and print it. For crying out loud. I read 'Mein Kamp'. Am I a Neo-Nazi because of it? Hell no - I HATE those mf's. I read it, because I wanted to know where they are coming from and how to argue with them (pointless anyway, I know...but I'm an idealist).

The meaning that has been attached to the word terrorism is overly simplistic and never shows the complexity of what it means to become and be a terrorist - or the reason (there is always a reason).
Asadia
17-07-2006, 06:16
Oh. dude come on...Its gonna take more than word-of-arab-mouth to convince me.------ "Hamas' surprise victory in the Palestinian legislative elections was more a vote against corruption in the current government than an endorsement of the group's controversial politics, members of Chicago's Palestinian community:rolleyes: said Thursday."

Puh-lease.

I had a statistical site. But my computer crashed a while ago, and I lost the document.
It actually had a break down of why people voted for Hamas.
The Atlantian islands
17-07-2006, 06:19
I had a statistical site. But my computer crashed a while ago, and I lost the document.
It actually had a break down of why people voted for Hamas.
Ok...so if you showed me that, and it was from a credible non-arab source..things might be looking a little different, but you cant just tell me that you used to have it and expect to win arguements and convince people.

Thats like coming to school and expecting good marks on last nights homework, even though you left your homework on your desk in your bedroom.
Asadia
17-07-2006, 06:22
If i ever find it I will publish it, I am gonna stop searching now, might later, but I got tons of work I gotta finish. ::(
The Atlantian islands
17-07-2006, 06:26
If i ever find it I will publish it, I am gonna stop searching now, might later, but I got tons of work I gotta finish. ::(
Alright. Rain check, then.
Pisteslovakia
17-07-2006, 06:27
I really hope the United States stays out of this because even though we could help, I really do not have faith in the leadership of this country to objectively decide which side to help. And who can ever decide such a thing anyways as an outsider?
The Atlantian islands
17-07-2006, 06:31
I really hope the United States stays out of this because even though we could help, I really do not have faith in the leadership of this country to objectively decide which side to help. And who can ever decide such a thing anyways as an outsider?.........Uh, steadfast allies? Smart individuals? Keepers of the peace?
Barbaric Tribes
17-07-2006, 07:10
It will never stop. Until everyone is dead.
Soviestan
17-07-2006, 07:12
It will never stop. Until everyone is dead.
yep, thats about right.
Mstreeted
17-07-2006, 07:17
I cant even begin to tell you how tired i am of the middle east. Iran is trying to build nukes, syria is trying to get rid of israel, israel is trying to get rid of syria, israel is invading lebanon, iraq is...well its iraq...i'll let you people decide what to think there. But when will this whole thing end. What the hell is the problem with jews? Why do the muslims hate them so much. When will Bin Laden realize that he cant win because nobody will ever negotiate, when will hamas and hezzbolah learn the same lesson. Why cant israel just back off. They've already beaten Lebanon to a pulp and set the country back 50 years. Dont these countries and groups realize that what they're doing has been completely worthless so far. There is no base to it, they're going to fight, kill thousands, sign a peace treaty, which they will break in 5 years and we'll be back to where we were at the beginning. Its a pointless cycle that will never end.

Dude, you answered your own question.
Eutrusca
17-07-2006, 15:45
Eutrusca: As I said in my original post: there is the historic argument. In my opinon that has no value at all. Otherwise, we should give Europe back the Romans, becasue they basically civilised it. And the White and Black Americans should all go back where they came from, because they certainly don't belong onto that continent. Same with Australians. It's funny how the historic argument is always brought up in the Israel discussion (the Jews haven't lived in the region for ages now - I mean, as a peoples...obviously there always were a few Jews around...that's Diaspora for you) - but so easily overlooked at home. People and borders have always moved - there is no intristic right to a particular land. That's as simple as it is. And hei, I say, let Israel fight for it. Fair enough. But don't 'give it' to them, just because they've lived there some thousands years ago. (Otherwise leave the USA right now and leave it to the Native Americans!)
You just overlooked one minor detail: "The Romans" ( who technically don't exist anymore, but just for the sake of argument ... ) aren't asking for their land back, and neither are the Amerinds ( except for certain tribes who have already had their land returned ). And the Amerinds were nomadic, not settled. The analogy breaks down when applied to virtually anyone except the Israelites.
Wester Koggeland
17-07-2006, 15:47
Yes...and come to think of it...things were peaceful (for the middle east) until Palestine and Lebanon attacked the country of Israel.

So no, there cant be peace until the arabs learn.

on the other hand, there werent many problems before israel existed either
Amadenijad
17-07-2006, 15:56
The only way this will end if either Israel wiped off the face of the Map, or if Syria, Iran, and Palestine is wiped off the map.

Me personally, I want the entire middle east off the map, but that's just me.


an ocean would look good there....hmmm
Isiseye
17-07-2006, 16:11
I cant even begin to tell you how tired i am of the middle east. Iran is trying to build nukes, syria is trying to get rid of israel, israel is trying to get rid of syria, israel is invading lebanon, iraq is...well its iraq...i'll let you people decide what to think there. But when will this whole thing end. What the hell is the problem with jews? Why do the muslims hate them so much. When will Bin Laden realize that he cant win because nobody will ever negotiate, when will hamas and hezzbolah learn the same lesson. Why cant israel just back off. They've already beaten Lebanon to a pulp and set the country back 50 years. Dont these countries and groups realize that what they're doing has been completely worthless so far. There is no base to it, they're going to fight, kill thousands, sign a peace treaty, which they will break in 5 years and we'll be back to where we were at the beginning. Its a pointless cycle that will never end.


My sympathies to you. Its shame here is so much conflict in that region cos it truely is a fantastic place