NationStates Jolt Archive

Can somebody give me information about the SUNBURN Missiles?

I didn't know we are near a war with Iran. Are you a troll or something?

I didn't know we are near a war with Iran. Are you a troll or something?

I think he's saying that the current geo-political situation is leading up to a US/Iran war and wants to know the performance specifications of the SUNBURN anti-shipping missiles Iran sports.

I didn't know we are near a war with Iran. Are you a troll or something?

You don't understand what I mean...

I think the USA are next to a war on Iran because of the efforts all the parts are doing: involving Israel attacking Lebanon, trying to strike Syria, that would lead to an open front against Iran; Bush & Friends supporting it...

I feel now between the USA and Iran (when we "know" that Iran is helping Hezbollah openly) the same I felt between USA and Iraq when the UN unveiled those portable facilities of MDW's... And it ended its way.

So my opinion is that the war between USA and Iran is next.

I think he's saying that the current geo-political situation is leading up to a US/Iran war and wants to know the performance specifications of the SUNBURN anti-shipping missiles Iran sports.

Nothing that anti-missiles can't handle.

I don't think it will result in war. Iran is on the brink of an energy and economic crisis right now, so soaring oil prices and destroyed infrastructure would be the last things they need in such a vulnerable period.

I think he's saying that the current geo-political situation is leading up to a US/Iran war and wants to know the performance specifications of the SUNBURN anti-shipping missiles Iran sports.

Basically what I've heard is that the possession of those missiles forced the US Navy to make a huge demonstration of power: Seven combat groups at once dancing by that zone... also I've heard that the USA Navy has no defense agains those missiles.

That's why I was trying to look for info for them.

(And yes, make the people move, think and express their views on a next Iran/USA war) :rolleyes:

You don't understand what I mean...

I think the USA are next to a war on Iran because of the efforts all the parts are doing: involving Israel attacking Lebanon, trying to strike Syria, that would lead to an open front against Iran; Bush & Friends supporting it...

Actually...I think Iran and syria are also for what is going on between Lebanon and Israel. They support Hezbollah and the US supports Israel. I think those two nations are egging this on and forcing Israel to respond.

I feel now between the USA and Iran (when we "know" that Iran is helping Hezbollah openly) the same I felt between USA and Iraq when the UN unveiled those portable facilities of MDW's... And it ended its way.

Considering that Iraq violated a cease-fire as well as 16 other UN resolutions....that had to be taken care of. Iran is a whole different ball game and right now, we are on the diplomatic tract. The ball is in Iran's court. Will they play by the rules of the NPT or will they continue to violate the rules of the NPT?

So my opinion is that the war between USA and Iran is next.

Doubtful that it will be occuring anytime in the near future.

I don't think it will result in war. Iran is on the brink of an energy and economic crisis right now, so soaring oil prices and destroyed infrastructure would be the last things they need in such a vulnerable period.

Agreed. If any part of the west were to stop buying oil from it, Iran would have no chance of survival. If there is a US-Iran conflict, it will be a waiting game of containment and starvation (if US commanders are smart).

I'm trying to find a link to the article I saw... it may help if you want to look for it if I tell you it was a voice inside of the US Navy who wrote it.

I'm trying to find a link to the article I saw... it may help if I tell you it was a voice inside of the US Navy who said it

Not like all of our technology is public knowledge.

I don't think it will result in war. Iran is on the brink of an energy and economic crisis right now, so soaring oil prices and destroyed infrastructure would be the last things they need in such a vulnerable period.
Israel is intent on dragging us into the current conflict. They’ll find a way and it will probably be by provoking Iran.

Israel is intent on dragging us into the current conflict. They’ll find a way and it will probably be by provoking Iran.

Highly doubtful.

Nothing that anti-missiles can't handle.

Those anti-missles alarm did not even go off when Iraq fired a Chinese Silkworm into Kuwait.

Those anti-missles alarm did not even go off when Iraq fired a Chinese Silkworm into Kuwait.

How long ago was this?

Those anti-missles alarm did not even go off when Iraq fired a Chinese Silkworm into Kuwait.

yea sure....bring something that happened 3 years ago into this type of debate.

Agreed. If any part of the west were to stop buying oil from it, Iran would have no chance of survival. If there is a US-Iran conflict, it will be a waiting game of containment and starvation (if US commanders are smart).

Here's the most ironic thing: Iran exports oil to the EU, India, and China but has to buy part of it back in gasoline from those same three sources. Their domestic refining capacity can't keep up with demand and subsidies are crushing their budget while simultaneously making them dependent on more imported fuel. Even worse for them, they can't get rid of the subsidies without causing riots and can't keep them without rationing.

Of course, it doesn't help that Iran's most affordable and common car gets only 12 miles per gallon (19.6l/100km)

Israel is intent on dragging us into the current conflict. They’ll find a way and it will probably be by provoking Iran.
I think its the other way around, Undelia...Israel is trying to keep this war on its current two fronts...but it may, unfortunatly, move into Southern Syria should Hezbollah flee there...and Israel..not giving a shit about what Syria thinks, will continue along and attack them there...here is where we cue Iran butting its ugly self into the war....for the purpose of "defending Syria" aka, waging the holy war against Israel. (You know, the one they promised to wage when they said they would wipe Israel off the map, or did you forget about that?)....:rolleyes:

Highly doubtful.
See my above post for a more possible and probably scenario.

How long ago was this?

At the begining of Gulf war II

yea sure....bring something that happened 3 years ago into this type of debate.

Do you think our anti-missle technology could take out a silkworm missile now. Iran has a lot of them and we just may find out if our anti-missile systems really work or if it just an excuse for the government to waste billions of dollars in tax money.

Do you think are anti-missle technology could take out a silkworm missile now. Iran has a lot of them and we just may find out if our anti-missile systems really work or if it just an excuse for the government to waste billions of dollars in tax money.

We already know that anti missiles defense systems actually do work. :rolleyes:

We already know that anti missiles defense systems actually do work. :rolleyes:

Yes of course it works perfectly because the government says so they never lie. Anti-missile system was not worth a shit 3 years ago when the silkworm missile was fired into Kuwait.

Yes of course it works perfectly because the government says so they never lie. Anti-missile system was not worth a shit 3 years ago when the silkworm missile was fired into Kuwait.

Just keep telling yourself this tripe and you might actually come to believe it. Oh wait, you already do. We have already seen evidence that it works. We already know that it works and to say that it doesn't only makes you look like a fool. But I guess that makes you one now does it.

I think its the other way around, Undelia...Israel is trying to keep this war on its current two fronts...but it may, unfortunatly, move into Southern Syria should Hezbollah flee there...and Israel..not giving a shit about what Syria thinks, will continue along and attack them there...here is where we cue Iran butting its ugly self into the war....for the purpose of "defending Syria" aka, waging the holy war against Israel. (You know, the one they promised to wage when they said they would wipe Israel off the map, or did you forget about that?)....:rolleyes:
Iran is far from innocent, but Israel shouldn’t be bombing the shit out of countries just because a criminal from that country commits a crime in theirs.

Can somebody give me information about the SUNBURN Missiles?

Wikipedia can

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-270_Moskit

I don't know what else you could possibly want.

I am assuming, of course, that you mean the P-270 rumoured to belong to China and Iran, and not the "other sunburn", the older P80/100. Iran *may* have 8 of the P-270s- enough to sink a carrier or two, if they're lucky.

P.S. This thread went off-topic from the very second post, and has descended into name-calling within the first page. Impressive

Just keep telling yourself this tripe and you might actually come to believe it. Oh wait, you already do. We have already seen evidence that it works. We already know that it works and to say that it doesn't only makes you look like a fool. But I guess that makes you one now does it.

Please show the evidence that says our anti-missile system can take out a silkworm. How do you know the anti-missile system really works did consumer reports do an objective independant study on our anti-missile system? What tripe prove me wrong we saw three years ago that the anti-missile system could not even detect the chinese silkworm missile much less shoot it down.

BTW: the Sunburn missile was built in the 1970s. Times have most definitely changes.

As to the chinese silkworm, it is part of the Hy series and can be dealt with.

Please show the evidence that says our anti-missile system can take out a silkworm. How do you know the anti-missile system really works did consumer reports do an objective independant study on our anti-missile system? What tripe prove me wrong we saw three years ago that the anti-missile system could not even detect the chinese silkworm missile much less shoot it down.

Funny that there are numerious types of anti-missile batteries with their limits. The navy can take care of the silkworm since it is primarily an ANTI-SHIP missile.

When slower missiles, like the French Exocet are used, the maximum theoretical response time for the defending ship is 150-120 seconds. This provides time to launch countermeasures and employ jamming before deploying "hard" defense tactics such as launching missiles and using quick-firing artillery. But the 3M82 "Mosquito" missiles are extremely fast and give the defending side a maximum theoretical response time of merely 25-30 seconds, rendering it extremely difficult employ jamming and countermeasures, let alone fire missiles and quick-firing artillery.

Difficult but not impossible.

yea sure....bring something that happened 3 years ago into this type of debate.

According to LG though, he served as a missile tech some time ago or a similar position on the navy. He said that while the SUNBURN missiles weren't too much of a threat since they required very good firing solutions before launching, which meant highly detectable radar/whatever emmissions, there were cheaper, albeit less accurate missiles that could be mass fired due to their small size without requiring high spec radars, or at all.

In this scenario, it is doubtful that naval defenses would be able to knock down all the missiles or even a majority percentage of them given the high volume of missiles.

here's something to read about the sunburn missiles...

http://www.rense.com/general59/theSunburniransawesome.htm

I'm not quite sure whether this author's information is legit, but if it is, he makes a very compelling argument.

here's something to read about the sunburn missiles...

http://www.rense.com/general59/theSunburniransawesome.htm

I'm not quite sure whether this author's information is legit, but if it is, he makes a very compelling argument.

One is intellectually deficient if they take anything from Rense's site seriously.

We already know that anti missiles defense systems actually do work. :rolleyes:

Like the tests for the F-22, I recommend looking at the results of the missile defence systems with a highly critical eye. Weighting the scales in the favor of the system is not exactly unknown in multi-billion dollar contracts after all.

Remember, although technically the F-22 did shoot down the targets in the tests, it's starting position was favorable to the point of impossibility. Starting behind target planes with a missile that never missed is not how you get a "fair and balanced" simulation.

Sunburn missiles ain't gonna do jack against USN missile defense. And if you point to the Falklands caimpaing as "proof", mind you the brits let the Argent bombers get RIGHT OVER THEM and hit them using WW2 bombs and tactics.

Hellstorm, raptor...or whatever the name of that system is that will spew out 2,000 20mm rounds a minute at incoming missiles.

One is intellectually deficient if they take anything from Rense's site seriously.

Which is why I added the disclaimer

Which is why I added the disclaimer

Indeed, thats why I didn't accuse you of being deficient.

here's something to read about the sunburn missiles...

http://www.rense.com/general59/theSunburniransawesome.htm

I'm not quite sure whether this author's information is legit, but if it is, he makes a very compelling argument.

Iran may or may not have 8 missiles, purchased from the Ukraine. This is enough to sink a carrier, two if they're lucky- not annihilate a battle group.

Indeed, thats why I didn't accuse you of being deficient.

Thank you, then.

Iran may or may not have 8 missiles, purchased from the Ukraine. This is enough to sink a carrier, two if they're lucky- not annihilate a battle group.

And that's assuming those missiles get through the battlegroup to begin with.

BTW: the Sunburn missile was built in the 1970s. Times have most definitely changes.

As to the chinese silkworm, it is part of the Hy series and can be dealt with.

That is the whole point the missile defense system could not even detect
a missile that was made in the 1970's
(I am sure it was an upgraded model.)

Sunburn missiles ain't gonna do jack against USN missile defense. And if you point to the Falklands caimpaing as "proof", mind you the brits let the Argent bombers get RIGHT OVER THEM and hit them using WW2 bombs and tactics.

The USS Stark was hit by an Exocet during the Falklands war. HMS Sheffield was also struck and sunk by a similar missile. It was neither a WW2 bomb nor was it dropped via overhead bombing.

Dive bombing with an Exocet is like firing a hand grenade out of a Glock. It's stupid and unworkable. And it wouldn't accomplish anything.

Get your facts straight.

And that's assuming those missiles get through the battlegroup to begin with.

Indeed. The beginning of the article was believable- the end, with the whole world turned against the poor, starving American sstranded in Baghdad, stuck me more as frothing at the mouth.

The Sunburn missile, NATO designation SS-N-22, Russian Designation 3M-80E Moskit (mosquito)
Is a ramjet powered sea-skimming anti-ship missile with an integrated ECM system and a 300kg warhead.
Supposedly, the sunburn is capable of penetrating U.S. naval defenses in order to destroy Nimitz class super carriers.
INn practice though, the U.S.N. Aegis (flight 2) is highly capable of defeating high-speed, low altitude missile targets through heavy ECM.
Though touted as a Carrier Killer by media and russian/chinese/iranian propoganda, it is highly unlikely that the sunburn would prove to be any serious threat to U.S. naval assets.
However, the AEGS system does not provide a comprehenisve off axis/cross-range capability. so, while easily capable of defending it's self from threats, the U.S. Navy can not defend a target unless ships are within very close proximity of the missiles target.

New systems, including Naval adaptations of the succesful THEL, and the Rolling Airframe Missile are being considered (or, in the case of the RAFM, have been recently implemented) which would both update the U.S.N.'s self defense capability and provide a greater ability to defend targets farther from the ships own axis of defense.

The RAFM was not available against the 2003 Silkworm attack, however it has since been added to the majority of U.S. naval vessles and would provide a greater level of security against such attacks.

The USS Stark was hit by an Exocet during the Falklands war. It is neither a WW2 bomb nor is it's use with tactics of the time (dive bombing except in the case of torpedo bombers) a viable strategy.

Dive bombing with an Exocet is like firing a hand grenade out of a Glock. It's stupid and unworkable. And it wouldn't accomplish anything.

Get your facts straight.

If I recall correctly, some Argent planes snuck up on some British navy ships and hit them with bombs.

I might be wrong

The USS Stark was hit by an Exocet during the Falklands war. It is neither a WW2 bomb nor is it's use with tactics of the time (dive bombing except in the case of torpedo bombers) a viable strategy.

Dive bombing with an Exocet is like firing a hand grenade out of a Glock. It's stupid and unworkable. And it wouldn't accomplish anything.

Get your facts straight.

Fired from a Mirage F1 fighter of the Iraqi airforce no less. According to reports (unconfirmed of course) it is believed that the pilot was executed though Iraq claims the pilot went unpunished. No one really knows but he's probably still alive.

If I recall correctly, some Argent planes snuck up on some British navy ships and hit them with bombs.

I might be wrong

HMS Sheffield was taken out by the same missile that damaged the Stark.

At the begining of Gulf war II

It certainly makes sense to fire a silkworm anti-ship missile in the desert.

Oh wait...

Silkworm-anti ship missile

Camels-"ships of the desert"

Poor beasts...

a) Lunatic Goofballs used to be in ship-based missile defense. He said to me once that he was most afraid of little things like the Exocet. Silkworms can still be dangerous when used in masses.

b) Yes, SS-N-22 Sunburn. Very dangerous. It flies low like an Exocet, but faster than sound, ie faster than any Western anti-ship missile in service at the moment. It needs someone to point a radar at the target though, which is where Iran is going to have trouble.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/moskit.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/moskit.htm
http://www.enemyforces.com/missiles/kh_41.htm
http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n2026.cfm
Yes, it was designed to also carry tactical nuclear warheads if things got really serious. But even as it is, given that the warhead is something like 200kg and flying at waaay above the sound barrier, it's going to be enough to do a lot of damage.

c) During the "Milennium Challenge" wargames, the retired US General who played the bad guys used ships pretending to be civilian to fire Moskits from relatively close range, and destroyed a carrier force that way.
The most likely Iranian carrier would be that little seaplane/ekranoplan thingy they unveiled recently during the wargames. If that works, it may be difficult to intercept or detect because it flies so low. In that case, I'd be worried.

d) The Russians have developed a newer version now, called "Yakhont". Primarily these are much more able to work together while in the air, striking the right places at the right times, and I think they're 'Fire and Forget' as well.

e) CIWS is out of date, these days ships use Rolling Airframe Missiles for point defence. They probably won't be 100% successful either though, not with things like this. However, Iran doesn't have an unlimited number of Moskits, and as I said before, it needs someone to point a radar at the target which would be difficult to do while there's US planes and missiles around.
The Soviets designed these missiles to take out US carriers. But the Soviets would've had the numbers and technology to use them properly, which Iran lacks at the moment.

The Sunburn Missile is an aging Russian missile that, while capable of high speeds, is of a rather short range for a cruise missile. It also relies on ancient technology that requires a radar guidance lock, something that Iran would have a severe problem with. Nor do the Iranians have an awful lot of them, this is a weapon from the bad old days when the Soviets thought they were going to go toe to toe with the US Navy in the Atlantic, and their primary attack platforms would be submarines and airplanes. It is not stealth, and contrary to the claims of alarmists, would not be able to evade the radar of an AEGIS ship, or the aging CIWS even. The SS-N-22 is an aging missile that dates back to 1980, and while a formidable challenge for a warship 25 years ago, it no longer contains the threat it once did.

HMS Sheffield was taken out by the same missile that damaged the Stark.

Perhaps I am thinking of a different part of the Falklands conflict?

Someone got the dibs on info?

:confused:

Fired from a Mirage F1 fighter of the Iraqi airforce no less. According to reports (unconfirmed of course) it is believed that the pilot was executed though Iraq claims the pilot went unpunished. No one really knows but he's probably still alive.

One can only hope

It certainly makes sense to fire a silkworm anti-ship missile in the desert.

Oh wait...

Silkworm-anti ship missile

Camels-"ships of the desert"

Poor beasts...

Listen you can make all the little jokes you want. The whole point is the silkworm was fired into kuwait without the anti-missile system even detecting it. It just proves the anti-missile system is not as good your propaganda gods want you to believe. If you have evidence otherwise prove it.
I know it is easier to insult and talk a bunch of bullshit than it is to prove your point.

Listen you can make all the little jokes you want. The whole point is the silkworm was fired into kuwait without the anti-missile system even detecting it. It just proves the anti-missile system is not as good your propaganda gods want you to believe. If you have evidence otherwise prove it.
I know it is easier to insult and talk a bunch of bullshit than it is to prove your point.

It is good. Not perfect, but it is good. nothing can be 100% perfect. Nothing human at anyrate.

I think we all know the Patriot system isn't perfect. Why?

Because Haifa had Patriots deployed around it.

Sunburn Specs (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/moskit.htm)

Its damned blipping fast 2-3 times faster than the Exocet, but it's also been around long enough that I'd bet that most Naval forces have adapted their point defense systems to handle them. Besides, once the missile is on independent, it uses active radar, which as I understand it should rather dramatically increase the weapons radar cross-section, making it easier to track and target, I would think.

Listen you can make all the little jokes you want. The whole point is the silkworm was fired into kuwait without the anti-missile system even detecting it. It just proves the anti-missile system is not as good your propaganda gods want you to believe. If you have evidence otherwise prove it.
I know it is easier to insult and talk a bunch of bullshit than it is to prove your point.
The Silkworm was fired from short distance, at extremely low, well mapped altitudes. It was essentially flying under the radar. If it wanted to hit a precise target, instead of a random spot in Kuwait city, it would have to gain altitude to get a radar image. It probably wasn't even in the air long enough to get a reaction from Anti-Missile weapons.

The Silkworm was fired from short distance, at extremely low, well mapped altitudes. It was essentially flying under the radar. If it wanted to hit a precise target, instead of a random spot in Kuwait city, it would have to gain altitude to get a radar image. It probably wasn't even in the air long enough to get a reaction from Anti-Missile weapons.

That is indeed true. Even the general at the press conference said that.

I think we all know the Patriot system isn't perfect. Why?

Because Haifa had Patriots deployed around it.
That was fifteen years ago. The Patriot was in it's original form, which was primarily for SAM duty against aircraft. It had been pressed into ATBM duty as well. The PAC-3 is far more capable than the original Patriot, and it can down inbound missiles with regularity.

Of course the navy would not be using the Patriot, they'd be using the AEGIS system, which had far better accuracy than the Patriot did in 1991, and it's done nothing but improve since then.

That was fifteen years ago.
I believe it was one day, but then...

Listen you can make all the little jokes you want. The whole point is the silkworm was fired into kuwait without the anti-missile system even detecting it. It just proves the anti-missile system is not as good your propaganda gods want you to believe. If you have evidence otherwise prove it.
I know it is easier to insult and talk a bunch of bullshit than it is to prove your point.

So I guess thats why Kuwait was a smoking crater huh?

POS chinese weapon...lousy turd world engineering.

Of course, it WOULD have worked better if the Iraqis had used it for what it was designed for.

POS chinese weapon...lousy turd world engineering.
Don't be silly.

The Silkworm is tiny and cheap to build. The trick with them is to fire so many of them that the defence system can't cope and some go through. You don't need fancy engineering for that.

And besides, the Chinese have better ones. Primarily the Yakhont, for which I have no doubt they'll be a prime customer.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Yakhont.html

EDIT: Thought right:
http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=19&issue_id=666&article_id=4701
...Two additional Sovremennyys are on order. Armed with the SS-N-22 Sunburn antiship missile, these warships pose a considerable risk to U.S. carriers and would effectively block off the Taiwan Strait as an operating area in the event of conflict. Moscow recently agreed to sell China the supersonic SS-N-26 Yakhont missile, which is even more awe-inspiring than the Sunburn and, once launched, cannot be intercepted. According to the U.S. Department of Defense report on Chinese military capabilities, released in 2002, Beijing's purchases of the Sovremennyys, "provide China with immediate improvement to its warfighting capabilities."

The Silkworm was fired from short distance, at extremely low, well mapped altitudes. It was essentially flying under the radar. If it wanted to hit a precise target, instead of a random spot in Kuwait city, it would have to gain altitude to get a radar image. It probably wasn't even in the air long enough to get a reaction from Anti-Missile weapons.

Um Qassr to Kuwait city how ever far that is. Of course it was flying low its a silkworm.

Don't be silly.

The Silkworm is tiny and cheap to build. The trick with them is to fire so many of them that the defence system can't cope and some go through. You don't need fancy engineering for that.

And besides, the Chinese have better ones. Primarily the Yakhont, for which I have no doubt they'll be a prime customer.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Yakhont.html

Have 3rd world countries EVER used things the way they are supposed to? That's the problem. If they did use them as they were supposed to, crappy engineering aside, they'd stand a MUCH better chance. But because they don't train they're pilots, missile techs, or even maintain the weapons, they won't get close to the actual performance they'd be getting if they took care of those missiles.

I believe it was one day, but then...
Oh, you mean what's going on right now? I'd imagine the Israelis would be using the Arrow system, not Patriot. They've got a penchant for home built systems.

What we're talking about right for inbounds is also radically different from what a naval ship would be facing. The Israelis are dealing with the Katyusha Rocket, an unguided artillery rocket from the second world war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha

The Rocket itself is a little over a meter long, and is filled with solid rocket fuel. It is treated more as an artillery shell than a guided rocket. It flies low and fast, and presents similar problems to interception as a conventional artillery projectile.

Ranged anti-missile systems are ill equipped to handle the Katyusha, while their effectiveness at sea would be virtually nil due to their unguided nature, and often erratic and imprecise flight paths. If one were to come close, the CIWS and the system replacing it are well equipped to handle multiple Katyushas.

Um Qassr to Kuwait city how ever far that is. Of course it was flying low its a silkworm.

In reality, It isn't all that far. Um Qassr is right dab smack on the border with Kuwait.

Um Qassr to Kuwait city how ever far that is. Of course it was flying low its a silkworm.
It was flying low over terrain, not the ocean. Due to the nature of radar when dealing with terrain, it would be tough to detect.

Depending on where in Kuwait City the missile hit, it could be anywhere from ten miles to fifty miles. And if I remember correctly, the missile hit in the northern part of the city. So, probably about twenty miles.

It was in the air for a little more than a minute.

Have 3rd world countries EVER used things the way they are supposed to? That's the problem.
Iran isn't some third-world country though. They're doing a lot of indigenous weapons development, and thanks to rising oil prices they've got a lot of money to spend as well. Plus, they produce Silkworms at home, so they have a virtually unlimited amount.

Oh, you mean what's going on right now? I'd imagine the Israelis would be using the Arrow system, not Patriot. They've got a penchant for home built systems.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276133,00.html

What we're talking about right for inbounds is also radically different from what a naval ship would be facing. The Israelis are dealing with the Katyusha Rocket, an unguided artillery rocket from the second world war.
So was it actually confirmed that it was a Katyusha rocket?

Well, whatever. My point was that the Patriot can be penetrated just like anything else. Obviously it's got nothing to do with Sunburns and ships.

In my view, the only way the Sunburns can do real damage is if they are used by these little ekranoplans which are likely to fly below radar and are therefore difficult to detect.
Especially if the target isn't a US warship, but an oil tanker...

I found out something interesting.

That Israeli warship that was hit by a missile...that was a Sa'ar 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%27ar_5) "missile boat". Those things are actually quite modern and fancy. The missile that hit it was reportedly a Chinese C-802 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-802).

But it nicely illustrates an important point: The Israelis turned off their defence systems.

That sort of thing happens all the time in war - surprises, human error, maintenance issues or just sheer luck.

Iran isn't some third-world country though. They're doing a lot of indigenous weapons development, and thanks to rising oil prices they've got a lot of money to spend as well. Plus, they produce Silkworms at home, so they have a virtually unlimited amount.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276133,00.html


So was it actually confirmed that it was a Katyusha rocket?

Well, whatever. My point was that the Patriot can be penetrated just like anything else. Obviously it's got nothing to do with Sunburns and ships.

In my view, the only way the Sunburns can do real damage is if they are used by these little ekranoplans which are likely to fly below radar and are therefore difficult to detect.
Especially if the target isn't a US warship, but an oil tanker...

Silkworms and Sunburns aren't the best to deal with the USN, now merchant marine? THAT is a threat to deal with. They don't have the radar, CWIS, or ANYTHING to even let them know the missile is coming.

There are only 3500 or so Oil tankers in the world....gotta keep them running.

It would take a two or three week air campaign to destroy Irans ability to wage war , and destroy the entire infastructure and the Iranian economy .

Then what . Irans fucked ...so what now ? do they elect another crazy bastard or someone with a little sense in his head ?

And remember you just took the entire Iranian oil prodution off line for years .

Iran is only slightly better than third world as a military ...but they have an economic ..OIL...edge worth more than the contribution of the collection of targets thats its military represents .

I found out something interesting.

That Israeli warship that was hit by a missile...that was a Sa'ar 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%27ar_5) "missile boat". Those things are actually quite modern and fancy. The missile that hit it was reportedly a Chinese C-802 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-802).

But it nicely illustrates an important point: The Israelis turned off their defence systems.

That sort of thing happens all the time in war - surprises, human error, maintenance issues or just sheer luck.

I heard the missile that hit the israeli boat was a guided suicide drone.

And YES, the Brits DID get bombed by the Argies during the Falklands campaign, using WW2 tactics and bombs. Of course, the Argies forgot to arm their weapons, which makes them sort of useless.

img100.imageshack.us/img100/3755/argentineskyhawkattacklh2.jpg

It would take a two or three week air campaign to destroy Irans ability to wage war , and destroy the entire infastructure and the Iranian economy .

Then what . Irans fucked ...so what now ? do they elect another crazy bastard or someone with a little sense in his head ?

And remember you just took the entire Iranian oil prodution off line for years .

Iran is only slightly better than third world as a military ...but they have an economic ..OIL...edge worth more than the contribution of the collection of targets thats its military represents .

They have a few good units-dedicated, well equipped, and high tempo. Those will be kept around Tehran to keep ahaminjead in power and safe from getting raped by the US/IDF.

I heard the missile that hit the israeli boat was a guided suicide drone.
That's what they thought at first. They didn't know Hezbollah had something as advanced as a C-802. The fact that they had it made them think that Syria or Iran helped them get it, aim it and fire it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203754,00.html
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2195553
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1184

This last one makes a mistake when it says the C-802 belongs to the Silkworm family, which it doesn't. But it just illustrates that Iran builds C-802s as well. Just one more reason not to start a war with them.

They have a few good units-dedicated, well equipped, and high tempo. Those will be kept around Tehran to keep ahaminjead in power and safe from getting raped by the US/IDF.


How are they going to stay alive unless they disperse and bury themselves ?

hellfire misssiles cant be fooled by camo..so what equipment will they use ?

The US never needs to set foot on the ground..bomb them into 5 th world status and let them run around trying to figure out how to eat and drink water . And if the military can find some equipment we missed ..use drones to kill it .

The US need not EVER set foot in Iran to destroy it .

That's what they thought at first. They didn't know Hezbollah had something as advanced as a C-802. The fact that they had it made them think that Syria or Iran helped them get it, aim it and fire it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203754,00.html
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2195553
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1184

This last one makes a mistake when it says the C-802 belongs to the Silkworm family, which it doesn't. But it just illustrates that Iran builds C-802s as well. Just one more reason not to start a war with them.

It's one more reason to start a war, and to make sure those weapons are out of action as soon as possible.

Of course, with the way things are heating up, Israel might do the job for us, leaving us with....nothing.

We still have a vendetta 'gainst Iran for the Embassy seige.

How are they going to stay alive unless they disperse and bury themselves ?

hellfire misssiles cant be fooled by camo..so what equipment will they use ?

The US never needs to set foot on the ground..bomb them into 5 th world status and let them run around trying to figure out how to eat and drink water . And if the military can find some equipment we missed ..use drones to kill it .

The US need not EVER set foot in Iran to destroy it .

Hide amongst civilian structures would work. Several *AHEM* known politicians would start crying, thus ending anything before it started.

It's one more reason to start a war, and to make sure those weapons are out of action as soon as possible.
And then people build new ones.

Of course, with the way things are heating up, Israel might do the job for us, leaving us with....nothing.
Naw. The Israeli Military might be decently equipped, but it's not large enough to run a proper campaign. It'd take them years and they would suffer too many casualties. They'll have to ask for help to take on Iran.

We still have a vendetta 'gainst Iran for the Embassy seige.
Yeah. I'll be damned if I understand it.

...Several *AHEM* known politicians would start crying...
Like George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld?

It's not the officials, it's public opinion that prevents it.

See Bush, you dumbass, this whole thing would've been solved had you left Saddam in power and an ally with the threat of Nuclear capability to scare the living shit out of the Iranians. If a war resulted, we'd support him and it would be a bloodbath between the two and it would be settled.

Perhaps I am thinking of a different part of the Falklands conflict?

Someone got the dibs on info?

:confused:

On the Falklands we had Britsh ships sunk by bombs too. The frigate ARDENT was sunk by bombs on 21st May.

See: http://www.naval-history.net/F41argaircraft.htm

or http://www.naval-history.net/F44airbattles.htm

Have 3rd world countries EVER used things the way they are supposed to? That's the problem. If they did use them as they were supposed to, crappy engineering aside, they'd stand a MUCH better chance. But because they don't train they're pilots, missile techs, or even maintain the weapons, they won't get close to the actual performance they'd be getting if they took care of those missiles.


True.

See: http://www.naval-history.net/F62brshipslost.htm

Note: If the frequent unexploded bombs (1-13) had detonated on striking some of the ships listed below, the Royal Navy's additional losses might quite possibly have put the eventual success of the British Task Force in doubt.

See Bush, you dumbass, this whole thing would've been solved had you left Saddam in power and an ally with the threat of Nuclear capability to scare the living shit out of the Iranians. If a war resulted, we'd support him and it would be a bloodbath between the two and it would be settled.

Oh this is so wrong on so many levels. If Iran wanted to start a war, he'd still hvae to attack Iraq and I do not think the other arab nations, except Syria, would support them.

And we already supported Iraq in the 8 year long Iran-Iraq War. It wasn't settled then and I doubt it would be settled now.

You don't understand what I mean...

I think the USA are next to a war on Iran because of the efforts all the parts are doing: involving Israel attacking Lebanon, trying to strike Syria, that would lead to an open front against Iran; Bush & Friends supporting it...

I feel now between the USA and Iran (when we "know" that Iran is helping Hezbollah openly) the same I felt between USA and Iraq when the UN unveiled those portable facilities of MDW's... And it ended its way.

So my opinion is that the war between USA and Iran is next.


Can the US afford another war that will have a possible worse out come than Iraq. Ugh. Some one get rid of the Bush Administration already. I think Israel launching a pre emptive strike against Iran is more likely. War sucks. Why can't ppl just get along (and no I'm not a leftie hippy).

Iran isn't some third-world country though. They're doing a lot of indigenous weapons development, and thanks to rising oil prices they've got a lot of money to spend as well. Plus, they produce Silkworms at home, so they have a virtually unlimited amount.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276133,00.html


So was it actually confirmed that it was a Katyusha rocket?
Well, that's what I'd assume it was. Katyusha rockets can be modded to get some crazy range in a garage, if you're really ambitious you can even give the bastards multiple stages. It takes some engineering skill, but it's nothing that you wouldn't be able to get at a decent University anywhere in the world.

Well, whatever. My point was that the Patriot can be penetrated just like anything else. Obviously it's got nothing to do with Sunburns and ships.
Of course, Patriot isn't perfect, it's just that to break through you either have to go with an ICBM inbound, or a tiny, tiny rocket like the Katyusha. Most midrange TBMs and Cruise Missiles wouldn't cut it.

In my view, the only way the Sunburns can do real damage is if they are used by these little ekranoplans which are likely to fly below radar and are therefore difficult to detect.
Especially if the target isn't a US warship, but an oil tanker...
They'd fly below aircraft radars, but the High Frequency radar used to detect submarine periscopes at range would probably be able to deal with that problem.

Can the US afford another war that will have a possible worse out come than Iraq. Ugh. Some one get rid of the Bush Administration already. I think Israel launching a pre emptive strike against Iran is more likely. War sucks. Why can't ppl just get along (and no I'm not a leftie hippy).
If we were all liberal democracies, with strong economic ties to each other we would get along. But we aren't all such, tragically enough.

HMS Sheffield was taken out by the same missile that damaged the Stark.

Nonsense. You can't use a single missile more than once :p

Unless you meant the same type of missile. :p

It certainly makes sense to fire a silkworm anti-ship missile in the desert.

Oh wait...

Silkworm-anti ship missile

Camels-"ships of the desert"

Poor beasts...

....

You're one of those people who would mark Australia as Iraq on a world map wouldn't you?

Iraq sits right next to the Euphrates-Tigris river which in turn empties into the Persian Gulf where the US fleet sits. In fact, there were even plans for an amphibious invasion of Iraq during the first Gulf War.

Get your facts straight before you look like more of an ass. At least take about 20 seconds or so to look it up.

Nonsense. You can't use a single missile more than once :p

Unless you meant the same type of missile. :p

Obviously I ment the same type of missle but yea...you're right. Can't use the same missile twice. :p

I was just about to post to this thread.
I saw the subject. I saw the posters. I thought twice, in each direction.
You guys do know this is a sandbox, ?