NationStates Jolt Archive

I’ve grown exceedingly tired of threats condemning “Zionist aggression” or wishing “death on the ragheads.” It’s time to have an actual debate about Israeli policy in the current war, including evidence and even (gasp!) links if someone asks for a source for your information. I gather from the title you can tell which side I’m on.

First, relations between Israel and its Arab neighbors have entered into a qualitatively new sphere. For the first time in Israeli history, Arab and Muslim nations are divided about Israel. A group led by Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia (that’s right; two out of the three aggressors in 67 and 73) condemned Hezbollah at an Arab League meeting and have demanded they cease attacking Israel. Now, why would repressive regimes who often pulled out the canard of the “Zionist enemy” to stifle internal dissent take Israel’s side in a war with other Muslims? Because they’re terrified of the consequences if Iran becomes a regional hegemon. With no Iraq to speak of to counterbalance Iranian influence, a psychotic president close to acquiring nuclear weapons becomes much more dangerous to regimes that are fundamentally less religious and Sunni Muslim (who, if Iraq and history serve as indicators, are as hated by Shi’a extremists as Jews). Beyond these geopolitical factors, Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah are controlled by crazies. I can’t stress this enough. The leaders of these nations and said group are hellbent on the destruction of the state of Israel (as Hezbollah, obviously controlled by Tehran, has said in recent press releases). The government of Iran is controlled by ayatollahs and a president that agrees with them, Hezbollah is controlled by a cleric, and Syria goes along for Iran’s ride. They don’t want the West Bank. They don’t want the Gaza Strip. They don’t even want the Golan Heights. They won’t settle for anything less; their warped interpretation of Islam demands it. So Israel can’t negotiate. Hell, the Iranian team refused to play Israel at the World Cup; do you really think they’d sit at the same negotiating table? Of course not. (Note: Much of this analysis comes from a piece by David Brooks in today’s New York Times; he develops this argument more than I do).

But what about the innocent Lebanese, you might say? A fair point. There have certainly been civilian casualties, and the Lebanese military isn’t involved in the fighting. But neither of these can serve as reasons to condemn Israel. On the contrary, if Israel was targeting civilians, then Beirut would no longer exist. Israeli bombs are 100% aimed at targets of military importance; no exceptions. It’s not Israel’s fault that Hezbollah hides its missiles in civilian population centers and refuses to wear military clothing (making them unlawful combatants under the Geneva Convention, I might add). If I were more cynical, I would think Hezbollah was doing that intentionally to cause civilian casualties to spark international outrage against Israel. Oh, wait…I am that cynical. If they really cared about Lebanon’s civilians, they wouldn’t put missiles where they place them. In fact, Israel does more to protect Lebanese civilians than Hezbollah – the IAF drops leaflets in population centers before bombings telling people to Leave. And the airport, bridges, etc? The means that Hezbollah uses to get supplies from Syria and Iran, making them legitimate military targets. In war, there are casualties. Israel is doing a commendable job to reduce them. I know if it were any other country in the world, especially hypocrites like France, in the same situation, many more innocent civilians would die. (As for Lebanese military involvement, the government has done nothing to combat Hezbollah. On the contrary, Hezbollah has ministers in the cabinet and is Lebanon’s single largest political party. The government has neither the capacity nor the will to stop Hezbollah.)

Let’s talk about innocent civilians, shall we? We’ve already established that Israel does not intentionally target civilians. But Hezbollah sure as hell does. Let’s talk about three target cities in the North that have suffered barrages of Katyushas and larger, Iranian made, missiles. Haifa; Israel’s third largest city and a major port. It contains no military targets of value. Hezbollah launched missiles into major civilian centers, killing at least 8 and wounding many more. For what purpose? To kill as many Jews as possible. Fuck the rules of war. Next, Tiberias. A resort town, literally nothing of military value (but a damn gorgeous view of the sea). Unsurprisingly, because it was inside Hezbollah’s range, a target. It has Jews, after all. Finally, Tzvat (or Safed, depending on your transliteration). A small, religious settlement known for candles, cheese, and old synagogues. Yet again, no military presence. Yet the residents of Tzvat were also targets, and have reported several dead and wounded.

Don’t talk to me about proportionality until your nation is under attack by an enemy who desires only the destruction of your country and everyone in it.

Oh, and I used to post under a different name before my country got deleted from inactivity.

I’ve grown exceedingly tired of threats condemning “Zionist aggression” or wishing “death on the ragheads.” It’s time to have an actual debate about Israeli policy in the current war, including evidence and even (gasp!) links if someone asks for a source for your information. I gather from the title you can tell which side I’m on.

First, relations between Israel and its Arab neighbors have entered into a qualitatively new sphere. For the first time in Israeli history, Arab and Muslim nations are divided about Israel. A group led by Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia (that’s right; two out of the three aggressors in 67 and 73) condemned Hezbollah at an Arab League meeting and have demanded they cease attacking Israel. Now, why would repressive regimes who often pulled out the canard of the “Zionist enemy” to stifle internal dissent take Israel’s side in a war with other Muslims? Because they’re terrified of the consequences if Iran becomes a regional hegemon. With no Iraq to speak of to counterbalance Iranian influence, a psychotic president close to acquiring nuclear weapons becomes much more dangerous to regimes that are fundamentally less religious and Sunni Muslim (who, if Iraq and history serve as indicators, are as hated by Shi’a extremists as Jews). Beyond these geopolitical factors, Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah are controlled by crazies. I can’t stress this enough. The leaders of these nations and said group are hellbent on the destruction of the state of Israel (as Hezbollah, obviously controlled by Tehran, has said in recent press releases). The government of Iran is controlled by ayatollahs and a president that agrees with them, Hezbollah is controlled by a cleric, and Syria goes along for Iran’s ride. They don’t want the West Bank. They don’t want the Gaza Strip. They don’t even want the Golan Heights. They won’t settle for anything less; their warped interpretation of Islam demands it. So Israel can’t negotiate. Hell, the Iranian team refused to play Israel at the World Cup; do you really think they’d sit at the same negotiating table? Of course not. (Note: Much of this analysis comes from a piece by David Brooks in today’s New York Times; he develops this argument more than I do).

But what about the innocent Lebanese, you might say? A fair point. There have certainly been civilian casualties, and the Lebanese military isn’t involved in the fighting. But neither of these can serve as reasons to condemn Israel. On the contrary, if Israel was targeting civilians, then Beirut would no longer exist. Israeli bombs are 100% aimed at targets of military importance; no exceptions. It’s not Israel’s fault that Hezbollah hides its missiles in civilian population centers and refuses to wear military clothing (making them unlawful combatants under the Geneva Convention, I might add). If I were more cynical, I would think Hezbollah was doing that intentionally to cause civilian casualties to spark international outrage against Israel. Oh, wait…I am that cynical. If they really cared about Lebanon’s civilians, they wouldn’t put missiles where they place them. In fact, Israel does more to protect Lebanese civilians than Hezbollah – the IAF drops leaflets in population centers before bombings telling people to Leave. And the airport, bridges, etc? The means that Hezbollah uses to get supplies from Syria and Iran, making them legitimate military targets. In war, there are casualties. Israel is doing a commendable job to reduce them. I know if it were any other country in the world, especially hypocrites like France, in the same situation, many more innocent civilians would die. (As for Lebanese military involvement, the government has done nothing to combat Hezbollah. On the contrary, Hezbollah has ministers in the cabinet and is Lebanon’s single largest political party. The government has neither the capacity nor the will to stop Hezbollah.)

Let’s talk about innocent civilians, shall we? We’ve already established that Israel does not intentionally target civilians. But Hezbollah sure as hell does. Let’s talk about three target cities in the North that have suffered barrages of Katyushas and larger, Iranian made, missiles. Haifa; Israel’s third largest city and a major port. It contains no military targets of value. Hezbollah launched missiles into major civilian centers, killing at least 8 and wounding many more. For what purpose? To kill as many Jews as possible. Fuck the rules of war. Next, Tiberias. A resort town, literally nothing of military value (but a damn gorgeous view of the sea). Unsurprisingly, because it was inside Hezbollah’s range, a target. It has Jews, after all. Finally, Tzvat (or Safed, depending on your transliteration). A small, religious settlement known for candles, cheese, and old synagogues. Yet again, no military presence. Yet the residents of Tzvat were also targets, and have reported several dead and wounded.

Don’t talk to me about proportionality until your nation is under attack by an enemy who desires only the destruction of your country and everyone in it.

Oh, and I used to post under a different name before my country got deleted from inactivity.

:eek:

Things were going pretty good under the ceasefire.....I think it lasted, what , 16 months? Incredible considering since 2000 the whole area's been a festering cesspool of carbombs and incoming katyusha rockets.

If 2 of the 3 67/73 agressors are on Israel's side, you gotta admit....Israel's either REALLY right or really kicking ass, most likely both.

More likely both. Then again, several of those countries are primarily sunni and Hezbollah is primarily shia.

Things were going pretty good under the ceasefire.....I think it lasted, what , 16 months? Incredible considering since 2000 the whole area's been a festering cesspool of carbombs and incoming katyusha rockets.
The cease fire more governed relations with the Palestinians, but yes. It was quite impressive that things were as safe as they were for so long given the intensity of the second Intifada. And then it all went to hell...

If 2 of the 3 67/73 agressors are on Israel's side, you gotta admit....Israel's either REALLY right or really kicking ass, most likely both.
:p

The cease fire more governed relations with the Palestinians, but yes. It was quite impressive that things were as safe as they were for so long given the intensity of the second Intifada. And then it all went to hell...


:p

I wish things over there would settle down 'cause I'd love to go on a trip and visit all the places Christ lived, walked, and died. That would be a huge highlight. And hopefully get to meet some Hebrew wimmenz.

I wish things over there would settle down 'cause I'd love to go on a trip and visit all the places Christ lived, walked, and died. That would be a huge highlight. And hopefully get to meet some Hebrew wimmenz.
I actually just got back from a 2 week trip. It's a really amazing place.

*nods*

and lebanon is mostly christian

The largest demographic is Shia Muslim.

I actually just got back from a 2 week trip. It's a really amazing place.

I wish things over there would settle down 'cause I'd love to go on a trip and visit all the places Christ lived, walked, and died. That would be a huge highlight. And hopefully get to meet some Hebrew wimmenz.

@Zvet and DesignatedMarksman....I spent two weeks in Israel during Christmas...its...an experience..though I like America and Northern Europe better.:)

The largest demographic is Shia Muslim.

yup, I thought I read somewhere that it was majority christian but I looked it up and I was wrong.

yup, I thought I read somewhere that it was majority christian but I looked it up and I was wrong.
It was that way before the Civil War. Then the Muslims moved in and made most of them leave.

It was that way before the Civil War. Then the Muslims moved in and made most of them leave.
leave to where?

The continued existence of the Israeli state remains a destabilizing factor in the Middle East.

The continued existence of the Israeli state remains a destabilizing factor in the Middle East.


The real problem is Arab tribalism.

*recommends a reading of*: The Trouble with Islam today.

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/index.html

More likely both. Then again, several of those countries are primarily sunni and Hezbollah is primarily shia.

Good observation. Most people miss this point and want to lump all muslims into one category. This is a big difference in the Muslim world. I know that my wifes family is Sunni and could give a rip about shia. It is more of a division than the Catholic/Protestant split.

The real problem is Arab tribalism.

*recommends a reading of*: The Trouble with Islam today.

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/index.html


Tribalism is a factor. If you look around the world in other areas. Tribalism causes many other problems in the non-muslim nations.

Good observation. Most people miss this point and want to lump all muslims into one category. This is a big difference in the Muslim world. I know that my wifes family is Sunni and could give a rip about shia. It is more of a division than the Catholic/Protestant split.


Join the club of the ignored staters-of-the-obvious.

What's the biggest weapon of Islamofascism? A reductionist definition of islam in which only the followers of Arab Sunni Central Command count, and all others are merely... statistics.

Tribalism is a factor. If you look around the world in other areas. Tribalism causes many other problems in the non-muslim nations.

So it does. *nods*

Join the club of the ignored staters-of-the-obvious.

What's the biggest weapon of Islamofascism? A reductionist definition of islam in which only the followers of Arab Sunni Central Command count, and all others are merely... statistics.


Only stating a point that most people fail to see. If you can view it in it's basic form than great. But the general layman does not know the interworkings of the different sects of Islam.

In my opinion the biggest problem I see in Islam and the difference between a American Muslim as myself and a Middle Eastren Muslim is a lack of tolerance. That is the one of the major root problems.

I’ve grown exceedingly tired of threats condemning “Zionist aggression” or wishing “death on the ragheads.” It’s time to have an actual debate about Israeli policy in the current war, including evidence and even (gasp!) links if someone asks for a source for your information. I gather from the title you can tell which side I’m on.

First, relations between Israel and its Arab neighbors have entered into a qualitatively new sphere. ...snip....

The leaders of these nations and said group are hellbent on the destruction of the state of Israelride.


Perhaps, but what if Isreal would agree to the formation of a Palestinian State?
If they were willing to agree to that, perhaps they wouldnt be seen as quite the aggressors they are at the moment.


Isreal is in the unique position to at least end the bloodshed within thier own borders, and making a small concession, and one that was even granted to them, not so long ago.
This certainly wouldnt dismiss the hatred against them, but perhaps it might alleviate a bit of the tension in the middle east.

Instead, they attack Lebanon, over the capture of two soldiers.
Forgive me if I sound callous, but two lives do not equal a thousand, or ten thousand.
Attacking Lebanon, and possibly Syria as well into a conflict will enivitably draw Iran into the conflcit as well.
If Iran becomes involved, you can bet the United States, and perhaps the European Union would become directly involved as well.

Do we really want to start a global conflict in the Middle East?

Yes, Isreal has a right to defend themselves against attack.
But this level of aggression is no better than carbombing a coffee shop.
Is Isreal ready to start some kind of world war?

@Zvet and DesignatedMarksman....I spent two weeks in Israel during Christmas...its...an experience..though I like America and Northern Europe better.:)
I'm here right now. This whole country is creepy crawly with tourists this year - they don't seem too worried. So y'all can come on down.

Only stating a point that most people fail to see. If you can view it in it's basic form than great. But the general layman does not know the interworkings of the different sects of Islam.

In my opinion the biggest problem I see in Islam and the difference between a American Muslim as myself and a Middle Eastren Muslim is a lack of tolerance. That is the one of the major root problems.

I'm to this very day utterly convinced that people don't do bad things because their religion tells 'em to do so.
They merely use religion as the official excuse for doing the things they had already decided to do.

I'll say a lot of very rude and calculatedly rude things about ... shari'a for one thing. Or fatwa's. And about the middle eastern arab ( Sunni ) majority - who have a fine track record of never missing a chance to genocide any other group.

But has Islam got much to do with it? I doubt it!

Replace jewish israeli's with kurds. Do you think that the arab mindset vis-a-vis Israel would change if only twere not a jewish state, but a muslim kurdic state instead? Or would... someone... try to hit 'em with chemical weapons - under a deafening silence from the Arab Sunni majority?

Isreal is in the unique position to at least end the bloodshed within thier own borders, and making a small concession, and one that was even granted to them, not so long ago.
This certainly wouldnt dismiss the hatred against them, but perhaps it might alleviate a bit of the tension in the middle east.

Instead, they attack Lebanon, over the capture of two soldiers.
Forgive me if I sound callous, but two lives do not equal a thousand, or ten thousand.
Attacking Lebanon, and possibly Syria as well into a conflict will enivitably draw Iran into the conflcit as well.
If Iran becomes involved, you can bet the United States, and perhaps the European Union would become directly involved as well.

Do we really want to start a global conflict in the Middle East?

Yes, Isreal has a right to defend themselves against attack.
But this level of aggression is no better than carbombing a coffee shop.
Is Isreal ready to start some kind of world war?The problem with this is that if Israel does nothing when its soldiers are kidnapped, and when its communitites are threatened a very weak precedent is set. And with these fundies, impression means alot. No - if Israel enters into conflict it must win - that's why it is a serious decision to make. However, Israel is not usually given the choice. There are those that those that are born to conflict, there are those that achieve conflict, and there are those that have conflict thrust upon them.

And by the way, Israel (leadership, and most of the citizens) are praying on bended knee that tehy will have someone to chuck the territories at and wash tehir hands. A Palestinian state is very much in Israel's interest, and moving towards one has been official policy for years.

And by the way, Israel (leadership, and most of the citizens) are praying on bended knee that tehy will have someone to chuck the territories at and wash tehir hands. A Palestinian state is very much in Israel's interest, and moving towards one has been official policy for years.


So then why have they refused every agreement regarding the formation of one, and refuse to negotiate the terms?

The problem with this is that if Israel does nothing when its soldiers are kidnapped, and when its communitites are threatened a very weak precedent is set. And with these fundies, impression means alot. No - if Israel enters into conflict it must win - that's why it is a serious decision to make. However, Israel is not usually given the choice. There are those that those that are born to conflict, there are those that achieve conflict, and there are those that have conflict thrust upon them.

And by the way, Israel (leadership, and most of the citizens) are praying on bended knee that tehy will have someone to chuck the territories at and wash tehir hands. A Palestinian state is very much in Israel's interest, and moving towards one has been official policy for years.

Yeah, well, a Palestinian State is very much not in the interest of arab nationalists. Who - starting with the Mufti of Jerusalem - always managed to botch all plans to make one. No plan for a Palestinian state is ever acceptable.

There is a Palestinian joke on the topic.

Arafat dies a martyr, and makes it to the gate of Paradise.
He finds there a large gathering of palestinian martyrs, all of whom are waiting for their 70 virgins.
None of 'em have been getting into Paradise, since, appearently, they are not on the list.
Arafat goes to complain to Allah, who thinks matters over and says:
We can't have you lot entering Paradise as you are now.
We're working on a proper solution - now, kindly stay in that camp that the angel Jabral is building for you!

So then why have they refused every agreement regarding the formation of one, and refuse to negotiate the terms?


Uh - it actually was the other way around?

Uh - it actually was the other way around?

I'd say its been pretty straightforward.

50/50.

Neither side really seems like they really want any such agreement.

I'm to this very day utterly convinced that people don't do bad things because their religion tells 'em to do so.
They merely use religion as the official excuse for doing the things they had already decided to do.
that's what confuses me about Hezbolla - they aren't really fighting for anything concrete! I mean, Israel left lebanon a couple years ago, they haven't got a chance at launching a real offensive war or capturing anyting, they have their own state to manhandle, unlike the palestinians that don't yet. So what's their beef?

Someone at my lab gave this expalnation:
Essentially, they are an orginization, that like every orginization, needs to guarantee its own survival. They won't get money and arms and justification from their donors (Syria, Iran) unless they kill a Jew once in a while. And hell, people are making a living off the orginization. So even though It's goals and actions are empty of true intent, they are sustained by economics and justified by extreme ideology.

that's what confuses me about Hezbolla - they aren't really fighting for anything concrete! I mean, Israel left lebanon a couple years ago, they haven't got a chance at launching a real offensive war or capturing anyting, they have their own state to manhandle, unlike the palestinians that don't yet. So what's their beef?

Someone at my lab gave this expalnation:
Essentially, they are an orginization, that like every orginization, needs to guarantee its own survival. they won't get money and arms and justification unless they kill a Jew once in a while. And hell, people are making a living off the orginization. So even though It's goals and actions are empty of true intent, they are sustained by economics and justified by ideology.


The person at your lab was right-on-the-spot.

( ideology ( btw ) is always the afterwards-excuse. How many different excuses have we heard about preempting in Iraq? )

I'd say its been pretty straightforward.

50/50.

Neither side really seems like they really want any such agreement.


So let me get this straight -
you are lambasting Israel for not coming to the conference table when it is pretty straight forward that :
the other party that should be there is not going to show up except for blocking meaningful proposals?

I'd say its been pretty straightforward.

50/50.

Neither side really seems like they really want any such agreement.
Well, it depends entirely on your perspective, and what you think is an acceptable compromise. Where your limits are of beyond-the-paleness. When you think it is justified to walk out of the negotiating room, or what you will bear while negotiating.

But basically, the reason I know a Palestinian state will occur with time is that it is in both sides' interests to have one. The process is painful, because we barely speak each other's languages. However, it'll happen with time. Like BogMarsh said, the only people in whose interest it is NOT to have a Palestinian state, is Islamic fundies in other countries, that might lose, or only weaken (after all, you can always still blame the Jews) one of their flagship rallying points.

So let me get this straight -
you are lambasting Israel for not coming to the conference table when it is pretty straight forward that :
the other party that should be there is not going to show up except for blocking meaningful proposals?


First off, Im not "lambasting" anyone.

Im asking questions becuase this is a very sticky situation an neither side can claim to be morally superior to the other.
Isreal has steadfastedly refused to bargain as much as the Palestinians.
How many times have they invaded the Gza strip after promising not to?

Neither, am I attempting to legitimize groups like Hezbollah, or Hamas that are claiming to be legitimate political parties, and authorizing terrorist attacks.

What I AM suggesting, is that Isreal may be stirriing up a hornets nest and provoking its neighbors, and other nations into a global conflict.

It’s time to have an actual debate about Israeli policy in the current war, including evidence and even (gasp!) links if someone asks for a source for your information. Alright, actual debate, sounds great. No simply villifying to opposition then, but actual arguments, right?

With no Iraq to speak of to counterbalance Iranian influence, a psychotic presidentI'd like a reference on the Iranian presidents mental state please.

Beyond these geopolitical factors, Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah are controlled by crazies. I can’t stress this enough.Again, objective psychological profiles please.

In fact, Israel does more to protect Lebanese civilians than Hezbollah – the IAF drops leaflets in population centers before bombings telling people to Leave.But the bombs still destroy their homes, neighbourhood and property just the same. You'd be ok with me tearing down your house, if I just give you advanced notice?

And the airport, bridges, etc? The means that Hezbollah uses to get supplies from Syria and Iran, making them legitimate military targets.Sure, why not bomb all the libanese farmland too? That's probably where Hezbollah gets their food from, after all, making it a legitimate target. Nevermind how many other people are effected, as long as it supposedly possibly harms Hezbollah.

In war, there are casualties. Israel is doing a commendable job to reduce them.There oughtn't be war in the first place.

especially hypocrites like FranceWhy are they hypocrits this time? Any objective criteria? Or is just anyone against your position a hypocrit, or, as above a crazy loon?

Let’s talk about innocent civilians, shall we? We’ve already established that Israel does not intentionally target civilians. They don't exactly not-target them either though. They destroy masses of civilian infrastructure, and don't in fact cause much of a problem for Hezbollah, which is happily terrorizing the north of israel with missiles.

But Hezbollah sure as hell does.You seem to treat this like a conflict where sides have to be chosen. You're all idiots, Hezbollah as much as the Israeli military.

Don’t talk to me about proportionality until your nation is under attack by an enemy who desires only the destruction of your country and everyone in it.I don't have the illusion I can be objective once my country is under attack.
Ironic how you want a debate, but not be talked to about proportionality. Even Putin called the violence disproportional, and he's responsible for tsjetsjenia (or however it's spelled).

The jewish population of Israel, like the black population of Sudan, the kurdish population of Kurdistan - and the iranian population of Iran,
provoke the sunni arab majority beyond endurance by existing in the first place.

We don't need to worry about upsetting arab sunni sensibilities.
What we need to do - globally - is making them very concerned about upsetting ours!

I don't have the illusion I can be objective once my country is under attack.
Ironic how you want a debate, but not be talked to about proportionality. Even Putin called the violence disproportional, and he's responsible for tsjetsjenia (or however it's spelled).Well, since we're on the subject of hypocrasy, good thing you brought that up

The main reason for still considering Hamas a terrorist group is apparently that they don't recognize the existence of Israel, in writing.
But Israel, by conducting military operations against Lebanon, a practically unarmed state, is refusing to recognize their existence, in fact.

Has anyone here noticed that the supposed rule "no two democratic nations have ever gone to war" just died?

The main reason for still considering Hamas a terrorist group is apparently that they don't recognize the existence of Israel, in writing.
But Israel, by conducting military operations against Lebanon, a practically unarmed state, is refusing to recognize their existence, in fact.

Has anyone here noticed that the supposed rule "no two democratic nations have ever gone to war" just died?

I know two democratic nations in the ME.
Israel - and Turkey.

Israel, Turkey, Iraq and Lebanon. Egypt if you consider politics above geography.

Israel, Turkey, Iraq and Lebanon. Egypt if you consider politics above geography.


Wow.
If Lebanon is a Democracy, then how come there is this kind of private militia around?

I wish things over there would settle down 'cause I'd love to go on a trip and visit all the places Christ lived, walked, and died. That would be a huge highlight.
Afterwards, why not go to London to see where Sherlock Holmes lived, walked and died?

After this, I suggest a tour of Sherwood Forest, on the off chance that you meet a descendant of Robin Hood.

Because those are just as real as Christ.

Because they're in books also, so it must be true.
And hopefully get to meet some Hebrew wimmenz.
The term is "Israeli" and if you callef them 'wimmenz' you'd likely get a slap.

...
The term is "Israeli" and if you callef them 'wimmenz' you'd likely get a slap.

:D Yep, they're fully modern females there. Even serve in the army.
EDIT: . . . . . . RTBS temporarily unavailable . . . . .

:D Yep, they're fully modern females there. Even serve in the army.

They even get an Uzi - for anything might happen on furlough.

But they don't get ammo - for anything might happen on furlough...

Wow.
If Lebanon is a Democracy, then how come there is this kind of private militia around?
Because they need protecting... Hezbollah does much the same job as I imagine the TA would if Britain was to be attacked.

Because they need protecting... Hezbollah does much the same job as I imagine the TA would if Britain was to be attacked.


The TA serves under National Command.
Hezbollah does not.

Coincidentally, if Hezbollah were so to serve Lebanon, than Israel has the right to hold Lebanon accountable by any and all means under the Land Warfare Convention. This right would include the option of ending the political existence of Lebanon.

They even get an Uzi - for anything might happen on furlough.

But they don't get ammo - for anything might happen on furlough...
Not sure if you're joking, but i've seen female soldiers here walking around with various types or weapons, ammo included.

Not sure if you're joking, but i've seen female soldiers here walking around with various types or weapons, ammo included.


It's an old Israeli joke.

I really would like to publish a survey of Israeli and Palestinian jokes - but most of my Palestinian sources are... concerned... about being 'caught' making jokes.

It's an old Israeli joke.

I really would like to publish a survey of Israeli and Palestinian jokes - but most of my Palestinian sources are... concerned... about being 'caught' making jokes.Just say it's plaigarism for a good cause

Just say it's plaigarism for a good cause

"'You shall pay for your treason… Make an example of you for others.'" Source: Raja Shehadeh quoting Arabic radio in Strangers in the House: Coming of Age in Occupied Palestine (South Royalton, Vermont: Steerforth Press, 2002), p. 68.


They don't speak because those who speak out of turn end up... dead.

"'You shall pay for your treason… Make an example of you for others.'" Source: Raja Shehadeh quoting Arabic radio in Strangers in the House: Coming of Age in Occupied Palestine (South Royalton, Vermont: Steerforth Press, 2002), p. 68.


They don't speak because those who speak out of turn end up... dead.

Naivety. Sheer naivete. In the west we have much more subtle ways. We shut them up, without getting quoted. It's called a Secret Service, and it's deniable.
EDIT: I refer to "Arabic radio, quoted in a <some book, without link>", not yourself. Naive.

I wish things over there would settle down 'cause I'd love to go on a trip and visit all the places Christ lived, walked, and died.I saw pictures of someone in my family visiting Jerusalem,Bethel, and some Churches .. she was able to go before the Wars.. It was so peaceful.

I saw pictures of someone in my family visiting Jerusalem,Bethel, and some Churches .. she was able to go before the Wars.. It was so peaceful.

Has it ever been peaceful? A city holy to Judaism, Islam, and Christianity?
["From prophets, deserts come."] removed.
ADDED:
Earth is essentially peaceful. We notice the violence.
Jerusalem is way down the list of places I want to see. Didn't read the book.

Instead, they attack Lebanon, over the capture of two soldiers.
Forgive me if I sound callous, but two lives do not equal a thousand, or ten thousand

Originally they moved into Lebanon to achieve the soldiers safe return. Then Hezbollah attaked with rockets, and they are defending themselves

Has anyone here noticed that the supposed rule "no two democratic nations have ever gone to war" just died?

If your talking about the PA, its about as democratic as Germany was with the Nazis

If your talking about Lebannon, its Hezbollah Israel are trying to fight, not Lebannon

The continued existence of the Israeli state remains a destabilizing factor in the Middle East.

Actually...the terrorists are the destabilizing factor in the region. Not Israel.

Actually...the terrorists are the destabilizing factor in the region. Not Israel.


Depends on how you look at it.

Perspective, you know?

There's still folks who claim that WWII was caused by the EBIL jewish-controlled Governments of Britain and France declaring war upon poor innocent Nazi Germany.

Perhaps, but what if Isreal would agree to the formation of a Palestinian State?
If they were willing to agree to that, perhaps they wouldnt be seen as quite the aggressors they are at the moment.

Psst. They have agreed to a formation of a Palestinian State. Been out of the loop long?

So then why have they refused every agreement regarding the formation of one, and refuse to negotiate the terms?

You do realize that it has been the terrorists and NOT ISRAEL that has kept a Palestinian state from existing?

If your talking about Lebannon, its Hezbollah Israel are trying to fight, not LebannonI'm sure that's a big comfort to Lebanon when they have to foot the bill for all the damages.

Depends on how you look at it.

Perspective, you know?

There's still folks who claim that WWII was caused by the EBIL jewish-controlled Governments of Britain and France declaring war upon poor innocent Nazi Germany.
Still how do you link it to israel?
It is all matter of perpective

I'm sure that's a big comfort to Lebanon when they have to foot the bill for all the damages.


Lets put a levy on the Oil, sorry, Gulf States - and make THEM pay for it.

Still how do you link it to israel?
It is all matter of perpective

I'd say to that that having the WRONG perspective brands you as an opponent in Global Politics.

But since you mention Israel:
as JHWH said:
I shall bless those who bless Israel
and curse those who curse Israel.

Wow.
If Lebanon is a Democracy, then how come there is this kind of private militia around?

I can say the same for Iraq :D

I can say the same for Iraq :D


The fixed idea that Iraq is a democracy is yours - not mine. :p

The fixed idea that Iraq is a democracy is yours - not mine. :p
:fluffle:

just cuz

Depends on how you look at it.

Perspective, you know?

There's still folks who claim that WWII was caused by the EBIL jewish-controlled Governments of Britain and France declaring war upon poor innocent Nazi Germany.

Despite Germany violating the territorial integrity of Poland. People are just ignorant of history.

Well that's better than a History professor saying that the Japs landed on midway island :rolleyes:

Or a History professor saying that the main contribution of the Roman Empire to humanity was the invention of the wheel, to use it in war chariots...

Has anyone ever imagined a legionnaire riding a war chariot?

Despite Germany violating the territorial integrity of Poland. People are just ignorant of history.

Well that's better than a History professor saying that the Japs landed on midway island :rolleyes:


They did. By parachute. Out of burning Zekes, Vals and Kates... :p

Not ignorant - merely working for the baddies. Or baddies themselves.

But since you mention Israel:
as JHWH said:
I shall bless those who bless Israel
and curse those who curse Israel.Heh, considering how often he cursed israel, he must have cursed himself under his breath a lot.

They did. By parachute. Out of burning Zekes, Vals and Kates... :p

Not ignorant - merely working for the baddies. Or baddies themselves.

Ya know..I never thought of that :D

Ya know..I never thought of that :D

See, have I got to do ALL the thinking around here? :D

What is that?

See, have I got to do ALL the thinking around here? :D
you can get a hard one out of it,becareful.people are known to exagerate.

What is that?JHWH is a name/title for God. It's like Jehova
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehova#YHWH

What is that?


Creator God - he is Yahwe
The Great 'I AM' - he is Yahwe
The Lord of All - he is Yahwe

Rose of Sharon - he is Yahwe
The Righteous Son - he is Yahwe
The Three-in-One -he is Yahwe

I wish things over there would settle down 'cause I'd love to go on a trip and visit all the places Christ lived, walked, and died. That would be a huge highlight. And hopefully get to meet some Hebrew wimmenz.

Stay away from the nice Jewish girls DM...

Alright, actual debate, sounds great. No simply villifying to opposition then, but actual arguments, right?
Hence the arguments about moral culpability and strategic considerations.

I'd like a reference on the Iranian presidents mental state please.
Forgive me for using the colloquial use of the term as opposed to the clinical one. Believe or not, people use crazy to mean things other than clinically insane.

But if you want proof to see if my colloquial use was accurate, I'm happy to provide it.

From Ahmadinejad: "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan."

More: "They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets."

From the wikipedia on Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah: "The Zionist entity's weakness is their Strong Adherence to This World... Our Strength is the Willingness to Sacrifice Our Blood & Children"

Bashar al-Assad, Syria's autocrat, on how the Jewish conspiracy controls the US: "The Israeli lobby has clout in the U.S., which means that re-arranging the region and controlling its resources one way or another, will serve Israel through its control over the American administration."

Again, objective psychological profiles please.
Semantic games don't answer my arguments.

But the bombs still destroy their homes, neighbourhood and property just the same. You'd be ok with me tearing down your house, if I just give you advanced notice?
That was a comparative statement as to why Israel is morally superior to Hezbollah. Further, you've conceeded two important arguments as to why that analogy is ridiculous: 1. Israel must attack Hezbollah because otherwise thousands of Israelis will die, and there's no way to negotiate with them, and 2. Hezbollah hides it's weapons among civilians in an attempt to get them killed to get the world on your side. Unfortunately, Israel has to attack said housing areas for self-preservation. It's remarkable that they go to such lengths to protect civilians that might even hamper their military strategy.

Sure, why not bomb all the libanese farmland too? That's probably where Hezbollah gets their food from, after all, making it a legitimate target. Nevermind how many other people are effected, as long as it supposedly possibly harms Hezbollah.
1. Not true. Hezbollah's provisions would be supplied by Syria and Iran. Plus, prove to me that Lebanon has any significant farming industry beyond subsistence farmers who couldn't provide any to an external group. You can't.

2. You missed the whole thing about how the IDF does as much as it can given the military situation to preserve civilian life. It's absurd for you to say they don't care about how it affects others. Put yourself in the IDF's place: what would you do when you were threatened by enemies that want nothing less than your total destruction who use their civilian populations as shields (further evidenced by the quote from Nasrallah above).

There oughtn't be war in the first place.
And that's Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran's fault. Don't blame Israel for being attacked and wanting to survive. That's like blaming the rape victim for killing the rapist.

Why are they hypocrits this time? Any objective criteria? Or is just anyone against your position a hypocrit, or, as above a crazy loon?
Read something about France's behavior when they ruled Lebanon and Syria. Or, have you heard ANYTHING about Algeria? The French don't give a shit about Arab lives when it's their interests on the line.

They don't exactly not-target them either though. They destroy masses of civilian infrastructure, and don't in fact cause much of a problem for Hezbollah, which is happily terrorizing the north of israel with missiles.
This was answered above. And it certainly is hampering Hezbollah activity. What major strikes have seen since Haifa yesterday?

You seem to treat this like a conflict where sides have to be chosen. You're all idiots, Hezbollah as much as the Israeli military.
Since many in the international community have this habit of condemning Israel and using institutions to hamper its self-defense, taking Israel's side is enormously important. Someone needs to prevent them from being condemned as "disproportionate" and stopped when on the verge of victory (I can't say if that's now or not).

I don't have the illusion I can be objective once my country is under attack.
Ironic how you want a debate, but not be talked to about proportionality. Even Putin called the violence disproportional, and he's responsible for tsjetsjenia (or however it's spelled).
You seem to have an odd habit of misunderstanding rhetorical flourishes. Sometimes people don't read everything literally.

Oh, and that just makes Putin a hypocrite who wants to distract attention away from his internal crackdown on dissent. You'd be a fool to think that he isn't consolidating power while the world is busy tut-tutting Israel.

Creator God - he is Yahwe
The Great 'I AM' - he is Yahwe
The Lord of All - he is Yahwe

Rose of Sharon - he is Yahwe
The Righteous Son - he is Yahwe
The Three-in-One -he is Yahwe
so if i don't give a fuck ,what then?

so if i don't give a fuck ,what then?
I'm not one for religiosity either. It has no place in politics.

I'm not one for religiosity either. It has no place in politics.
who decide it?

who decide it?
?

?
who decide politics has nothing to do with religion?
And vice versa

Grow your own opinions!

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Grow your own opinions!

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

And if you only got a clue that Israel only retaliates for the most part then you might be taken seriously.

who decide politics has nothing to do with religion?
And vice versaIt's an opinion. A lot of opinions are stated in a factual way. Some say "meat is delicous" others say "meat is murder", but stating it as fact doesn't make it so, it's all opinion.
And I think religion ought to stay out of politics.

Grow your own opinions!

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
That's the height of irony. I wrote my own original work; you post a link. And you tell me to get my own opinions...


Ever heard the one about stones and glass houses?

And if you only got a clue that Israel only retaliates for the most part then you might be taken seriously.

Please.

But then in the late 1800s a group in Europe decided to colonize this land. Known as "Zionists," this group consisted of an extremist minority of the world Jewish population. They wanted to create a Jewish homeland, and at first considered locations in Africa and South America, before finally settling on Palestine for their colony.

At first this immigration created no problems. However, as more and more Zionists immigrated to Palestine — many with the express wish of taking over the land for an exclusively Jewish state — the indigenous population became increasingly alarmed. Eventually, there was fighting between the two groups, with escalating waves of violence.

Finally, in 1947 the United Nations decided to intervene. However, rather than adhering to the democratic principle espoused decades earlier by Woodrow Wilson of "self-determination of peoples," in which the people themselves create their own state and system of government, the UN chose to revert to the medieval strategy whereby an outside power arbitrarily divides up other people’s land.

Under considerable pressure from high-placed American Zionists, the UN decided to give away 55 percent of Palestine to a Jewish state — despite the fact that this group represented only about 30 percent of the total population, and owned under 7 percent of the land.

Israel took their land, and you cant imagine why they are pissed?

When the inevitable war broke out the outcome was never in doubt, according to U.S. intelligence reports from the time. The Zionist army consisted of over 90,000 European-trained soldiers and possessed modern weaponry, including up-to-date fighter and bomber airplanes. The Arab forces, very much a third-world army, consisted of approximately 30,000 ill-equipped, poorly trained men. The U.S. Army, British intelligence, and the CIA all agreed: it would be no contest.

By the end of the 1948 war the Jewish state — having now declared itself "Israel" — had conquered 78 percent of Palestine — far more than that proposed even by the very generous UN partition plan.

Israel started this mess. Plain and simple.

That's the height of irony. I wrote my own original work; you post a link. And you tell me to get my own opinions...


Ever heard the one about stones and glass houses?

This link is an objective truth. I am telling you and everyone else here to see the way things really are, and develop an opinion based on it. I wasnt talking to you in particular. So before you attack me like this, try and think about what I intended to do.

*yawns*

Kazus, you are not going to win points by posting other people's opinions.

It's an opinion. A lot of opinions are stated in a factual way. Some say "meat is delicous" others say "meat is murder", but stating it as fact doesn't make it so, it's all opinion.
And I think religion ought to stay out of politics.
And politic is not orientated.

*yawns*

Kazus, you are not going to win points by posting other people's opinions.

Uh, its not an opinion.

And politic is not orientated.


I think that Democracy is great.

I think that nukes are... dangerous.

Sure - none of these things are orientated at all, right?

But then in the late 1800s a group in Europe decided to colonize this land. Known as "Zionists," this group consisted of an extremist minority of the world Jewish population. They wanted to create a Jewish homeland, and at first considered locations in Africa and South America, before finally settling on Palestine for their colony.
It was the natural location. Historical excavations have demonstrated the existence of past Jewish kingdoms there, not to mention that there was still a population of Jews living in "Palestine."

At first this immigration created no problems. However, as more and more Zionists immigrated to Palestine — many with the express wish of taking over the land for an exclusively Jewish state — the indigenous population became increasingly alarmed. Eventually, there was fighting between the two groups, with escalating waves of violence.
That's an odd interpretation of history. Do you know how Jews got land there? They bought it from Arabs who owned the land. And then when the Arabs regretted the deal, they attacked Jewish owned land and slaughtered unarmed farmers, sparking the purchase of weapons by Jewish farmers to defend themselves. "Fighting" is as close to the truth as you can get while ignoring every piece of history that might not support your viewpoint.

Finally, in 1947 the United Nations decided to intervene. However, rather than adhering to the democratic principle espoused decades earlier by Woodrow Wilson of "self-determination of peoples," in which the people themselves create their own state and system of government, the UN chose to revert to the medieval strategy whereby an outside power arbitrarily divides up other people’s land.
Uh, the partition plan was a result of intense, multiparty negotiation. Not to mention was approved by the vote of the international community which you are so quick to cite when it condemns Israel.

Under considerable pressure from high-placed American Zionists, the UN decided to give away 55 percent of Palestine to a Jewish state — despite the fact that this group represented only about 30 percent of the total population, and owned under 7 percent of the land.
Thanks, Walt and Mearsheimer. The Jews control the American government. But beyond that initial slander, your stats are enormously inaccurate. Read the Wikipedia on the subject; the land the Jews were given was the Negev desert and a few coastal cities. The Negev was not suitable for agriculture or population growth. The Muslims got all of the land that it was possible to do anything with given the population at the time. Read the Wikipedia on the subject.

When the inevitable war broke out the outcome was never in doubt, according to U.S. intelligence reports from the time. The Zionist army consisted of over 90,000 European-trained soldiers and possessed modern weaponry, including up-to-date fighter and bomber airplanes. The Arab forces, very much a third-world army, consisted of approximately 30,000 ill-equipped, poorly trained men. The U.S. Army, British intelligence, and the CIA all agreed: it would be no contest.
This is absurd. The conflict was only inevitable because Arab countries refused all partition: each combatant declared a desire to "drive the Jews into the sea," when the Jews agreed to a fair division.

As for the military segment, your source is so obviously biased that it's beyond me. I'm not going to bother summarizing the Wikipedia on the war here, which contains the accepted facts on the war. Suffice to say, Egypt alone had more troops than Israel taht were trained. In addition, the Haganah, an underground resistance force which constituted Israel's army, was lacking in the plane department.

By the end of the 1948 war the Jewish state — having now declared itself "Israel" — had conquered 78 percent of Palestine — far more than that proposed even by the very generous UN partition plan.

And then the Arabs refused to let the Palestinians live in the land they now demand Israel to cede. You really have a warped view of history.

I think that Democracy is great.

I think that nukes are... dangerous.

Sure - none of these things are orientated at all, right?
i think direct democracy is best,but i think brainwashing is bad

i think direct democracy is best,but i think brainwashing is bad

See, it's all opinion and orientation.

Same goes for secularism - just another opined orientation.

This link is an objective truth. I am telling you and everyone else here to see the way things really are, and develop an opinion based on it. I wasnt talking to you in particular. So before you attack me like this, try and think about what I intended to do.
1. No, it's not. The casualty reports you link to are a subject of much dispute. And there's no doubt in my mind, given the books displayed on the side of the website, that these are more than friendly to the Palestinian side.

2. They tell half of the story. Here's the other half that contextualizes your broader statistics. (http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440)

See, it's all opinion and orientation.

Same goes for secularism - just another opined orientation.
i never said otherwise

You do realize that it has been the terrorists and NOT ISRAEL that has kept a Palestinian state from existing?

Not according to Sharons former chief of staff....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3720176.stm

That's an odd interpretation of history. Do you know how Jews got land there? They bought it from Arabs who owned the land. And then when the Arabs regretted the deal, they attacked Jewish owned land and slaughtered unarmed farmers, sparking the purchase of weapons by Jewish farmers to defend themselves. "Fighting" is as close to the truth as you can get while ignoring every piece of history that might not support your viewpoint.
.

Yes, they bought up to the equivalent, as the other poster said, of 7% of the land.

Not according to Sharons former chief of staff....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3720176.stm

Actions speak louder than words. Israel has agreed to a 2 state solution. When things seem to be moving towards that, terrorists seem to come out of the woodwork and kill a bunch of Israelis and thus, no more progress for a few more months.

Israel wants peace. Its the terrorists that don't

What I don't understand is what the Israeli government's aim is?

Attacking the targets it has hit in Lebanon will do very little to hinder Hezbollah. The fact that the movement was started and thrived in an environment of Israeli occupation indicates that lobbing bombs and shells over the border will achieve very little in terms of actually damaging it.
Conclusion: If several years of on the ground occupation by the IDF could not defeat Hezbollah then the current scale of campaign will fail as well.

Israel has asked that the Lebanese Government disband Hezbollah and occupy the southern region of Lebanon. Simultaneously Israel has targeted the Lebanese army, all routes the Lebanese army could use to attack Hezbollah and all mechanisms that could be used to mobilise the army.
Conclusion: Israel has no interest in the Lebanese Government disarming Hezbollah.

The IDF has continued to hit areas with notable civilian concentrations. These attacks have, more often then not, missed any Hezbollah and instead killed a number of innocent civilians. The civilian victims of Operation 'Just Reward' have no real influence over the militias that hold them, while the militias themselves are thrive on the media coverage those deaths receive. It is possible that acts such as the destruction of Beirut airport and yesterday's killing of yet more civilians might divide Hezbullah and its supporters from the rest of the country, but only at the risk of triggering another civil war and creating a vacuum that Israel's enemies in Syria and Iran will find easier to exploit.
Conclusion: Israel is seeking to achieve a goal other than a stable and peaceful region.

Operation Just Reward is clearly an 'off the shelf' plan which means that it has a very clear, very specific set of goals set a substantial period of time before the recent series of events. To me, the IDF strategy seems to be hinting towards a more strategic initiative.
Conclusion: Israel is either seeking to occupy parts of Lebanon once more or it is seeking an engagement with a different nation/nations and this is all a means to an end.
What do other people think?

On a broader note:-
We could extend this to include more of a political history on the peace process and we could examine the motives of those invovled if people are interested?

Originally they moved into Lebanon to achieve the soldiers safe return. Then Hezbollah attaked with rockets, and they are defending themselves

I hit my brother. He attacks me back. He is the one who started the fight and I am the aggreived party. Is that what you're trying to say? Beause I wish I had you on my side a few years ago when that shit happened on a weekly basis.

The Palestinians only want the world to embrace Islam. I'm a progressive mainstraeam Democrat who strongly favors the seperation of church and state, and especially of "traditional" morality and state, but I wouldn't mind if the government wanted to broadcast Islamic Calls to Prayer because that would show how embracing we are.

Plus, it would address some of the root causes of terror. Embracing Islam in the government, since Islamic people want that as part of the government, is showing tolerance.

The Palestinians only want the world to embrace Islam. I'm a progressive mainstraeam Democrat who strongly favors the seperation of church and state, and especially of "traditional" morality and state, but I wouldn't mind if the government wanted to broadcast Islamic Calls to Prayer because that would show how embracing we are.

Plus, it would address some of the root causes of terror. Embracing Islam in the government, since Islamic people want that as part of the government, is showing tolerance.

And if they ban other forms of worship and execute those who worship someone other than Allah? Would you agree to them doing that?

And if they ban other forms of worship and execute those who worship someone other than Allah? Would you agree to them doing that?

I'm not sure. :( We need to be more tolerant though. Palestinians care very deeply about Allah. I think what Israel should do is start embracing more Islam (including using Shari'a in their courts when they can) in their country to show good faith with the Palestinians.

I'm not sure. :( We need to be more tolerant though. Palestinians care very deeply about Allah. I think what Israel should do is start embracing more Islam in their country to show good faith with the Palestinians.

You do realize that Israel doesn't mind having a palestinian state next door right? You do realize they recognize all their arab neighbors right? The ones being intolerant are the muslims who want to wipe Israel off the mape.

What results are Israel pursuing from the current crisis?

I'm not sure. :( We need to be more tolerant though. Palestinians care very deeply about Allah. I think what Israel should do is start embracing more Islam (including using Shari'a in their courts when they can) in their country to show good faith with the Palestinians.

Maybe. If the Palestians start embracing more of the jewish and christian religion and habits in their daily rountine as well. Fair trade, don't you think?

:rolleyes:

What results are Israel pursuing from the current crisis?

Simple answer. Their soldiers back and the attacks to stop.

Simple answer. Their soldiers back and the attacks to stop.

And to eradicate Hezbollah.

And to eradicate Hezbollah.

I push comes to shove then yes but right now all they want is their soldiers back and for the rocket attacks to stop and Hezbollah pulled back. That is their cease-fire conditions.

I push comes to shove then yes but right now all they want is their soldiers back and for the rocket attacks to stop and Hezbollah pulled back. That is their cease-fire conditions.

At the moment a cease-fire agreement looks years away. But pheh, it's politics, so you never know what might happen.

Simple answer. Their soldiers back and the attacks to stop.

I wish I saw the world like that still. Last time I thought people had simple motives like that was when I was 5.

Economically shattering a country has effects far beyond avenging a squad of reservists caught with their pants down. Either Israel is run by people too stupid to realise this (a thought I hardly credit given Olmert's realisation that retaining Gaza would see Jews outnumbered by Palestinians within a decade or so) or it has an ulterior motive in trying to destroy Lebanon.

At the moment a cease-fire agreement looks years away. But pheh, it's politics, so you never know what might happen.

No. You never know what can happen but if you listened to the Lebanonese PM earlier today, it doesn't sound like he's going to do what he hinted at what he might do. :(

No. You never know what can happen but if you listened to the Lebanonese PM earlier today, it doesn't sound like he's going to do what he hinted at what he might do. :(

What would that be? Linky maybe?

I wish I saw the world like that still. Last time I thought people had simple motives like that was when I was 5.

Its what they've been saying since this whole affair started. Want the attacks to stop then move hezbollah from the border, return our troops and stop the attacks. That's it. Plain and simple. Nothing should be read into it.

Economically shattering a country has effects far beyond avenging a squad of reservists caught with their pants down. Either Israel is run by people too stupid to realise this (a thought I hardly credit given Olmert's realisation that retaining Gaza would see Jews outnumbered by Palestinians within a decade or so) or it has an ulterior motive in trying to destroy Lebanon.

They don't want to destroy Lebanon. They want Lebanon to keep Hezbollah from launching rocket attacks into Israel. Goes to show that Syria still has a stranglehold on the nation :(

Simple answer. Their soldiers back and the attacks to stop.

Excellent.

Now if you just read my previous post you will find that I have posted a series of logical arguements that suggest that that is not even close to the real motivation behind their actions.

So, unless you are going to post counter-arguments, what do we think Israel is really after?

What would that be? Linky maybe?

He did hint at moving against Hezbollah. My guess is, between then and now some very nice gentlemen in expensive suits with handguns to match and syrian accents came and explained that they really didn't feel this was a good idea and might provide a free modification to his car in the form of high-explosives if he continued this foolishness.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

What would that be? Linky maybe?

He hinted that he might move the troops down south to the border and do something about Hezbollah a couple of days ago and today during an interview on Fox News, he stated a complete opposite of it. He blames Israel for the crisis and not Hezbollah though earlier he stated that Hezbollah needed to be reigned in.

He has more flip flops than an American Politician :(

Excellent.

Now if you just read my previous post you will find that I have posted a series of logical arguements that suggest that that is not even close to the real motivation behind their actions.

So, unless you are going to post counter-arguments, what do we think Israel is really after?

The Holy Grail?

He did hint at moving against Hezbollah. My guess is, between then and now some very nice gentlemen in expensive suits with handguns to match and syrian accents came and explained that they really didn't feel this was a good idea and might provide a free modification to his car in the form of high-explosives if he continued this foolishness.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

That seems to be the general consenses. As I said, goes to show that Syria still has a stranglehold on the nation despite no trooops in the nation :(

Maybe. If the Palestians start embracing more of the jewish and christian religion and habits in their daily rountine as well. Fair trade, don't you think?

:rolleyes:


Christianity has been shown to be oppressive time and again. And now, like a right-wing conservative, want to try to CHRISTIANIZE THE PALESTINIANS?!?

This is exactly what the extremist Anne Coulter wants to do.

If other Forum members want to make sure that Nuke Testament's ideas don't go into the government, we need to elect Whitehouse in Rhode Island, as well as Tester, Webb, Casey, and our Democratic team for the Senate, as well as for the House.

Its what they've been saying since this whole affair started. Want the attacks to stop then move hezbollah from the border, return our troops and stop the attacks. That's it. Plain and simple. Nothing should be read into it.



They don't want to destroy Lebanon. They want Lebanon to keep Hezbollah from launching rocket attacks into Israel. Goes to show that Syria still has a stranglehold on the nation :(

Corneliu, Corneliu. Think about it a little. Israel are blowing up key parts of the economy of Lebanon. Things that cannot be replaced in a hurry. Including ephemeral assets like reputation.

Lebanon will not recover in a hurry. The Israeli's threatened to 'bomb them back 20 years'. I think they will too.

Israel know full well that they cannot defeat Hezbollah by doing this. They DO know that they are shattering Lebanon. So where is the benefit? Who stands to gain and how?

The Holy Grail?

I suspect not. :rolleyes:

I have no idea what the Israeli Government's strategic motives are but I would like to know. That is why we are all here after all, to combine our knowledge and reasoning power and try to come to a consensus based on the evidence available, or reasonable supposition.

Christianity has been shown to be oppressive time and again. And now, like a right-wing conservative, want to try to CHRISTIANIZE THE PALESTINIANS?!?

Do you believe every single Left wing conspiracy theory?

This is exactly what the extremist Anne Coulter wants to do.

She's a bitch and not to be taken seriously.

If other Forum members want to make sure that Nuke Testament's ideas don't go into the government, we need to elect Whitehouse in Rhode Island, as well as Tester, Webb, Casey, and our Democratic team for the Senate, as well as for the House.

Why do I get the feeling that you actually work for the Democratic Party and not just a voter?

Christianity has been shown to be oppressive time and again. And now, like a right-wing conservative, want to try to CHRISTIANIZE THE PALESTINIANS?!?

Well, if we're using hyperbola. You're the one that suggested converting Isrealis to the islam. I merely added we should do a fair trade :p . And yes, christianity has beeen shown to be opressive. As is/was any other major religion.

This is exactly what the extremist Anne Coulter wants to do.

Who?

If other Forum members want to make sure that Nuke Testament's ideas don't go into the government...

1. Get my name right next time. It's TNT.
2. My ideas are going into the government? :eek:

...we need to elect Whitehouse in Rhode Island, as well as Tester, Webb, Casey, and our Democratic team for the Senate, as well as for the House.

Blahblahblah. There's a world outside of the US too, you know?

Actions speak louder than words. Israel has agreed to a 2 state solution. When things seem to be moving towards that, terrorists seem to come out of the woodwork and kill a bunch of Israelis and thus, no more progress for a few more months.

Israel wants peace. Its the terrorists that don't


I'm sorry but that ignores, as ever, the context of Arab actions. You don't seem to recall the condemnation of Sharons enlargement of the settlements.

"Israel redraws the roadmap, building quietly and quickly
Settler population grows as Sharon grabs more West Bank land than he returned in Gaza"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,16518,1594808,00.html

"EU accuses Israel over Jerusalem
A confidential report written for European Union foreign ministers has criticised Israel's policy on East Jerusalem, newspaper reports say.
The document, written by British officials, accuses Israel of rushing to annex Arab areas to prevent them becoming a future Palestinian capital. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4470118.stm

Bricklayers, cement mixers and spades are not attention grabbing, or spectacular, but in this instance they are as much a weapon of war as those jets bombing Lebanon. And when the Arab side reacts to this, its presented without this context.

:eek:

Things were going pretty good under the ceasefire.....I think it lasted, what , 16 months? Incredible considering since 2000 the whole area's been a festering cesspool of carbombs and incoming katyusha rockets.

If 2 of the 3 67/73 agressors are on Israel's side, you gotta admit....Israel's either REALLY right or really kicking ass, most likely both.


Only if you consider the occasional suicide bombing/rocket attacks good.

Israel is both really right and really kicking ass, I agree.