NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, this is my second try at this board. We’ll see how this round goes.

Anyway, in skimming the forum, I am impressed about how many people feel that religion is this thing that controls, brainwashes, and seeks to limit the freedoms and happiness of the masses. I would like to propose the idea that this is not true.

---Disclaimer--- I am not interested in a flame war where a bunch of people start screaming at why religion is or is not true, or about how stupid Christian/Muslims/Atheists/whatever are. I simply want to propose my church’s views on the nature of religion and see what other people think about them. Feel free to post your own ideas about what this whole religion thing is about.

First of all, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, more commonly known as a Mormon. Understand that the views of my church are different from almost any other Christian sect. Also understand that we indeed still believe in Christ and the Bible. Finally, this is the abridged version of our beliefs. For the sake of time and typing space, I’ve simplified things. And this is, by no means, the entirety of our doctrine. If you have questions, feel free to post or go to www.LDS.org.

From the top:
There is a man called God. He is not a spirit, although he possesses one. He has a resurrected, immortal body and is all powerful, all knowing, and all seeing. He has a wife, and therefore God is the LITERAL father of our spirits. God and his wife created all of us before the Earth was created. Now, God loves his children. He wants them to be as happy as possible, and the way to achieve ultimate happiness is to become like him, to gain a body, be resurrected, live with him in Heaven and become a God, have your own children, etc etc. This is where out doctrine really differs from other religions. So, technically, us Mormons are polytheistic, in the fact that we BELIEVE in multiple gods, but we worship one, that is, God, our Heavenly Father.

Now, we could all gain bodies, that was easy, but God couldn’t let us all get a free ticket into heaven, that would be irresponsible. We had to prove that we were willing to always follow him, to follow his commandments, ie, be good. This posed a problem, because in order to be tested, there had to be the possibility to fail, which meant that some of us might not make it back to Heaven and be forever separated from God. The other, much larger problem is that in order to be tested, we had to have the opportunity to sin, and since none of his children, except one (Christ), was perfect, we would all sin. And, since you had to be sinless to get back into Heaven, we would all fail our test and be forever separated from God, ie, thrust down to Hell. To solve this problem, Christ, who was perfect, and our literal brother, offered to suffer for all of the sins of mankind, to pay the price for all sin, and thus allow the rest of us to repent and be able to make it back to Heaven. So God created Earth, made us in HIS IMAGE, and a few thousand years later he sent his son to die for us.

SO, here is the point of religion:
God wants us all to be happy. In order to gain ultimate happiness, we have to be able to make it back to him in Heaven. To be able to get into Heaven, you must be perfect, which is impossible. Christ’s sacrifice made it possible to repent, to atone for our sins. God give us commandments because following them will make us happy, because we are doing the right, the good thing, and because if we follow them to our best ability, we can, through the Grace of Christ, inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Note, we cannot, by our own accord, become perfect; it is only because Christ paid the price for our sins that we are able to be made perfect. And the whole thing is driven by love.

A few other things we believe:
We believe that in order to enter Heaven you must be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, ie, become a member of the Church of Christ. We DO realize that many billions of people have died before Christ’s seven churches or out church came into existence, and that not everyone had the chance to hear it’s message, or even know if its existence. We, therefore, baptize and confirm people in our temples in PROXY of the dead, for them. One of the missions of the Church is to baptize and confirm every soul that has died and is needing of those ordinances. We also believe that in the time after you die and before Judgment day that all those who did not receive the gospel will be preached to in the afterlife and be given the choice to accept Christ as their savior and repent of their sins. The only catch is, you are still the same person in death as in life; if you were a raging racist in life, you still will be in death. So, unfortunately, still not everyone will be willing to repent and go to Heaven.

Finally, we believe that God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct and separate beings. God and Christ have resurrected bodies; the Holy Ghost does not at this time.

I would like to close with my testimony that God and Christ live, that they love each and every one of us, that the Bible and Book of Mormon are the words of God, and that what they contain are true.

Questions, comments, observations, etc are always welcome. Flaming, intolerance, bigotry and the like are not. I would ask, please don’t try to tell me why I am wrong and all religions are false. You won’t convince me, I promise you.

what about people who don't accept Christ in the "afterlife" but get baptized by proxy anyway, what happens to them?

They are ressurected, judged, and allowed to inherit a lesser degree of heaven. We believe that everyone will be ressurected, eventually, and that there are three degrees of glory in heaven. Only those who accept Christ and repent will inherit the highest glory and become Gods.

EDIT:
Unless they had a witness of Christ, KNEW that he was the savior, and later denied him. Then they are thrust down to hell.

How do you reconcile these beliefs with the Bible? and with Christ's own words that He is the only way to heaven?

He is. It is only through him that we can be saved, and even if we tried our darndest to be perfect, we couldn't do it. We do as much as we can, accept him as our savior, love him, and he makes up the difference. You can't work your way into Heaven without Christ.

Well, first of all congratulations on having the courage to declare your beliefs so openly in this forum. More often than not, it's a good way to expose that which one holds most dear to abuse and ridicule, but if you consider that the people that would do such things are idiots anyway, then it's not a problem.

One thing that stuck out in your post though:
it is only because Christ paid the price for our sins that we are able to be made perfect. And the whole thing is driven by love.

I would think that Christ's sacrifice was for all people, not just Christians, Mormons, etc., so even if one doesn't believe in Christ's divinity, one would have had the price of their sins paid for anyway. At least this is the conclusion I come to. Is it interpreted differently in LDS beliefs?

FWIW, I'm a Nichiren Buddhist, so if you wanted to know where I was coming from, there it is.

Well, first of all congratulations on having the courage to declare your beliefs so openly in this forum. More often than not, it's a good way to expose that which one holds most dear to abuse and ridicule, but if you consider that the people that would do such things are idiots anyway, then it's not a problem.


Thank you.

No, you are correct. We believe that Christ suffered for the sins of ALL MANKIND. Everyone get's the chance to have their sins forgiven, it's just that not everyone will accept the offer.

Just one thing struck me from your post: What if you are a "raging racist" or bigot, or any other such thing, but are also a fervent believer in the truth of the Mormon church? Can you be sent to hell for being a bigot, even though you believe in the truth of the LDS?

Assuming that this hypothetical bigot refuses to repent, because he doesn't see anything to repent for.

Thank you.

No, you are correct. We believe that Christ suffered for the sins of ALL MANKIND. Everyone get's the chance to have their sins forgiven, it's just that not everyone will accept the offer.
Just out of curiosity, why would anyone not accept the offer to have all of their sins forgiven, and go to eternal paradise? If given the choice, why would anyone choose to go to hell over heaven?

Why do people in this life, who go to church, still intenionally break commandments? Like, big ones. Adultery comes to mind. I appologize if this soudns offensive, but some people, in my belief, are too focused on temporal things, physical pleasures, etc, and are not willing to choose to follow Christ. That won't change after you die.

Also, repentance isn't a free ticked either. We belive that there are four basic steps in repentance. First, you have to admit your sin to everyone involved. If you stole something, you have to tell them. Second, you have to truely regret that you sinned. You have to feel sorry that you stole their car. Third, you have to make a restitution, if possible. You have to return their car, or buy them a new one since you totalled it. Fourth, you have to forsake that sin. You have to promise to NEVER steal again, and abide by that promise as well as you can. If you had commited some really serious crimes, I imagine that it would not be a comftorable thing to atone for them. I do hope, however, that most people will.

Also, we belive that the only people who are sent to Hell are those who had a witness of God and Christ and then denied them.

Thank you.

No, you are correct. We believe that Christ suffered for the sins of ALL MANKIND. Everyone get's the chance to have their sins forgiven, it's just that not everyone will accept the offer.

Oh, ok, that's different from what I was thinking. I was thinking everyone's sins were already forgiven. I didn't realize that it was just the opportunity to have them forgiven that was offered. After all, Publisher's Clearing House gives everyone the opportunity to win ten million dollars, but that isn't anywhere near as valuable as actual ten million dollars.

Mostly, it's just logic and causality that causes the most confusion. I mean, what is it that is actually being worshipped: the entity or the concept of the entity? I tend to think it's the concept that is being worshipped ultimately, in which case the entity being worshipped is a symbol of the concept. After all, people will follow a leader because they move them in the direction they want to go, but if their leader is not leading them where they want to go, then they stop following.

So are you proposing that all of the billions people humans and semi-evolved homonids that existed in the hundreds of thousands of years before christ simply went to hell? Are they still there? At what stage did human kind gain a soul? Homo-Erectus? Homo-Habilis? Do all animals have a soul? Do animals who fail to recognise christ go to hell?

Your superstition is full of holes

We worship God, out Eternal Father. We rejoice in Christ, regard the sacrifice that he was willing to make a sacred thing, and strive to be more like him, but the Ten Commandments still apply; we only worship our God.

So are you proposing that all of the billions people humans and semi-evolved homonids that existed in the hundreds of thousands of years before christ simply went to hell? Are they still there? At what stage did human kind gain a soul? Homo-Erectus? Homo-Habilis? Do all animals have a soul? Do animals who fail to recognise christ go to hell?

Your superstition is full of holes

So are you proposing that all of the billions people humans and semi-evolved homonids that existed in the hundreds of thousands of years before christ simply went to hell? Are they still there? At what stage did human kind gain a soul? Homo-Erectus? Homo-Habilis? Do all animals have a soul? Do animals who fail to recognise christ go to hell?

Your superstition is full of holes

Ummm.. no. First of all, we belive that every living thing has a soul, from pond scum to homo sapien. We also belive that only those forms of life capable sentient thought and therefore of understand God's plan for our redemption are responsible for following it. And, in case you did not read, redemption is possible after death.

Just one thing struck me from your post: What if you are a "raging racist" or bigot, or any other such thing, but are also a fervent believer in the truth of the Mormon church? Can you be sent to hell for being a bigot, even though you believe in the truth of the LDS?

Assuming that this hypothetical bigot refuses to repent, because he doesn't see anything to repent for.

You would not go to hell. You would need to repent, however, if you wanted to inherit the highest glory of Heaven. Christ said that the second most important commandment was to love your neigherbor, ie, love all of mankind, and to always forgive. If you hated people, for whatever reason, you are breaking that commandment.

Just out of curiosity, why would anyone not accept the offer to have all of their sins forgiven, and go to eternal paradise? If given the choice, why would anyone choose to go to hell over heaven?

Either they don't beleive it's true, or they don't want anything to do with a great blackmailer in the sky.

You would not go to hell. You would need to repent, however, if you wanted to inherit the highest glory of Heaven. Christ said that the second most important commandment was to love your neigherbor, ie, love all of mankind, and to always forgive. If you hated people, for whatever reason, you are breaking that commandment.

Okay. Cool. Sounds good. And you said there were three levels to Heaven, correct? Could I ask what characterizes each level, and what one must do to attain each level?

And so, you are saying that the fact that the racist believes, perhaps even "knows" he has comitted no sin, because he believes others to be inhuman, has no bearing on his situation and must repent?

Ummm.. no. First of all, we belive that every living thing has a soul, from pond scum to homo sapien. We also belive that only those forms of life capable sentient thought and therefore of understand God's plan for our redemption are responsible for following it. And, in case you did not read, redemption is possible after death.
Oh, alright then. Whoops. Sorry, this sounds like pretty important stuff. That being said, eternity is a long time and I think it would be quite imprudent to neglect the fate of my eternal soul. However, I find myself shocked at my own ignorance on the subject. All of the things you just told me are completely new news to me! I can't beleive I missed that update "Fate of eternal soul" amongst all my other self-preservation instincts. Tell me Prycon, from whence did you draw all of this knowledge on matters so esoteric and otherworldly in nature?

or they don't want anything to do with a great blackmailer in the sky.

If a blackmailer loved me, sent his son to die for me and promised that if I tried to do what he said and in return I would become a God like him, I think I'd try to do what he said.

If a blackmailer loved me, sent his son to die for me and promised that if I tried to do what he said and in return I would become a God like him, I think I'd try to do what he said.

Bully for you. I'd tell him where he could shove his blackmail.

Oh, alright then. Whoops. Sorry, this sounds like pretty important stuff. That being said, eternity is a long time and I think it would be quite imprudent to neglect the fate of my eternal soul. However, I find myself shocked at my own ignorance on the subject. All of the things you just told me are completely new news to me! I can't beleive I missed that update "Fate of eternal soul" amongst all my other self-preservation instincts. Tell me Prycon, from whence did you draw all of this knowledge on matters so esoteric and otherworldly in nature?

We have a little book called the Book of Mormon, and the words of our prophets. I can give you the references if you'd like.

Bully for you. I'd tell him where he could shove his blackmail.

You know, if you aren't going to add anything constructive to this thread, why are you bothering to post? The least you could do is say that you disagree, and then say why.

First of all, I'm impressed by your courage and honesty.

I was raised Roman Catholic, so u know my perspective. Here's my problem with God, in general. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful and all-loving, why does God let bad things happen. I'm not talking about things that result from sin, like diseases that result from polution or smoking, or victims of crimes. I'm talking about a mother who contracts a cancer and dies, leaving behind children who need a mother. What kind of God allows for the death of a good, loving, person who is still needed in the world?

We have a little book called the Book of Mormon, and the words of our prophets. I can give you the references if you'd like.

The Book of Mormon? Prophets? Wow... So where did you guys get this book? And where did the Prophets get their ideas?

Are you planning on having more than one wife?

That is an interesting issue. I'd like to share a passage from the Doctrine and Covenats: D&C 122:7 and if thou should be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentance of death passed upon thee; if thout be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy, if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elemnts vombine to hedge up the wat; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good

This is what God said to Joseph Smith after spending several months in a county jail. Smith was our first prophet, and he was tarred and feathered several times, had multiple murder appempts, and was eventually assinated at Carthage jail. We believe that he was a prophet of God, yet he was allowed to suffer and be murdered. Why? Becuase our trials and tribulations will give us strength. God does not allow his eternal plan to be disrupted, that's why he parted the red sea and all that. He still allows all of us to suffer trials so that we can, hopefully, learn and grow from them.

On a further level, what would the word be like if God did not allow bad things to happen to good people? Everyone would be good. There would not be any difficulty in following Christ if good things always happened to good people and bad things always happened to bad people. I personally believe that those people who are put into terrible situations are those who are strong enought to overcome them. I don't think I would be able to stay commit to God if my mother died when I was three, my father left me and I was left with nothing. I personally belive that those who are in those situations are stronger, better people than me. They have to be to overcome what they've been through.

Also, if God didn't allow the big disasters to happen, like Katrina, the Holocaust, etc, where would the dividing line be drawn where he wouldn't allow somthing to happen? He has to let things happen, especially in situations like the Holocaust; if he had stopped Hitler, he would have been infringing on Hitler's free will to do with his life what he would. He would not letting Hitler be tested.

Finally, if someone good dies, it may just be their time. They've completed what they needed to do and learn in this life and are ready to learn more in the next.

One note, we believe that those who die before the age of acountability, eight years old, are not capable of comitting sin, since their brains have not developed enough to truely understand what sin is. We belive that all young children who die go to the highest level of heaven, the Celestial Kingdom.

Do you understand? Any more concerns on this topic?

First of all, we no longer endorse poligamy. If you have more than one wife, you are excommunicated. Period. I am planning on having on wife.

The Book of Mormon? Prophets? Wow... So where did you guys get this book? And where did the Prophets get their ideas?

We believe that Joseph Smith saw a vision where God and Jesus Christ told him that all of the Churches on the earth had lost the truth; none of them were the same as the Church Peter began. We believe that the priesthood was lost during the period of Roman persecution against the curch. The Book of Mormon is a record of a group of Jews who left Jerusalem a few years before it was conquered by Babylon and sailed to the Americas. Christ visited those people after he was ressurected, for us explaining John 10:16, which reads "And other Sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepheard." The Book of Mormon contains words of other prophets who lived from 600BC to 400 AD.

We also belive that Joseph translated the Book of Mormon. We also believe that Joseph and others were ordained to the priesthood and have passed that down all the way to our current prophet, Gordon B. Hinckly. Finally, we believe that, like in Biblical times, God now reveals his will and words through his prophets. Many of those revelations are contained in two books called the 'Doctrine and Covenants' and 'Journal of Discources.' The D&C contains most of the important revelations given. Also, you can read what our prophets say in our magazine, called the Ensign, and we have a General Conferece twice a year, when the prophet, apostles, and other church athorities give sermons. You can download both at http://www.lds.org/. You can also order the Ensign and watch General Conference either on our website or on your TV provider, if they have the KBYU channel. The next one will be on September 30th and October 1st.

What makes this Joseph Smith guy special anyway? I saw God, he talked me, you should make me a prophet that you follow. God told me your going down the wrong path.

oh, sorry, I didn't see this Grape-Eaters.

Okay. Cool. Sounds good. And you said there were three levels to Heaven, correct? Could I ask what characterizes each level, and what one must do to attain each level?

And so, you are saying that the fact that the racist believes, perhaps even "knows" he has comitted no sin, because he believes others to be inhuman, has no bearing on his situation and must repent?

Three levels, yes. The lowest is the Telestial, compared to the Glory of the stars. It is better than anything we can comprehend. Out of the Godhead, only the Holy Ghost can go here. Such people as Adolf Hitler, Jack the Ripper, and other really nasty people will end up here. Next is the Terrestrial, which is compared to the glory of the Moon. Christ can visit here. People here are generally good people, who just weren't willing to forsake all of their sins and devote themselves to God. Last is the Celestial, which is compared to the glory of the Sun. God lives there. People who accept Christ, forsake their sins, and therefore stand blamless on the judgement day get to go there. You can become a God in the Celestial Kingdom.

About people who do not know about sin; we belive that everyone has what is called the light of Christ, which is basically an internal sense of right and wrong. We gained this when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit. A racist who simply though that others were subhuman would first NOT be loving his common man, but on some level he would know what he was doing was wrong. Besides, when he dies, he will be able to understand that his hatred was not justified, as we are ALL literal children of God, and can repent. What depends is if he wants tp.

We believe that Joseph Smith saw a vision where God and Jesus Christ told him that all of the Churches on the earth had lost the truth; none of them were the same as the Church Peter began. *snip*
So god/jc told him? Wow, thats pretty big. Surely if that is the case, then every one would be mormon, right?! How come some people still aren't Mormon even after God and JC told Joseph Smith that every other religion was wrong?

First of all, they were not WRONG, they did not have the complete truth. Second, the answer is becuase the other religions do have truth. If they were all flat out wrong, and our church was the only religion that held truth, I do think that most of the world would be Mormon now. However, since many churches, especially such ones as the (Reformed) Catholic Church and (true) Islam are so close to having the Truth, many people are drawn to them. This is not our doctrine, but my personal belief. And I would appreciate if you could turn down the sarcasm just a bit.

oh, sorry, I didn't see this Grape-Eaters.



Three levels, yes. The lowest is the Telestial, compared to the Glory of the stars. It is better than anything we can comprehend. Out of the Godhead, only the Holy Ghost can go here. Such people as Adolf Hitler, Jack the Ripper, and other really nasty people will end up here. Next is the Terrestrial, which is compared to the glory of the Moon. Christ can visit here. People here are generally good people, who just weren't willing to forsake all of their sins and devote themselves to God. Last is the Celestial, which is compared to the glory of the Sun. God lives there. People who accept Christ, forsake their sins, and therefore stand blamless on the judgement day get to go there. You can become a God in the Celestial Kingdom.

About people who do not know about sin; we belive that everyone has what is called the light of Christ, which is basically an internal sense of right and wrong. We gained this when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit. A racist who simply though that others were subhuman would first NOT be loving his common man, but on some level he would know what he was doing was wrong. Besides, when he dies, he will be able to understand that his hatred was not justified, as we are ALL literal children of God, and can repent. What depends is if he wants tp.

So, but in reference to Hitler and the like going to the Telestial level of Heaven, but...what if, after his death, he repents fully, and accpts Christ and such? I mean, I doubt he heard of Mormonism in life, so, shouldn't he get the chance? In other words, no matter how bad a person was, he or she could get into the Celestial level of eaven after death, correct?

If so, I am set.

Correct. If he was willing to forsake all of his sins, then yes, it is theoretically possible that he could still make it to the Celestial Kingdom. I just think that, since he was so far seperated from God in life, that he won't be much more willing to rectify himself in death. I may be wrong though. .

Basically, if you are a good person who is willing to do what is right, you probaby can make it to the Celestial kingdom. If you are unwilling or don't want to be forgiven, then you are probably not going to get there. And since you are the same person after you die as you were in life, if you were not willing to repent in life, you probably won't be willing in death.

You know, if you aren't going to add anything constructive to this thread, why are you bothering to post? The least you could do is say that you disagree, and then say why.

How does one respond to a one-off one line response to an answer to someone elses question? Contructive? What's to construct? I'm not going to refute the existence or lack-thereof of your God, I certainly can't claim to know or care about whether or not it exists (and besides which, like every other member of the God debate, you don't honestly care what anyone else says, you won't be convinced. You said so in your OP).

If anything, I wonder at the point of your post at all. What do you intend to do with it? Evangelize? If so, why are you driven to such obnoxious, ultimately futile behavior? Is it a coming out of the closet for you? Do you feel as though there is a social pressure that you can only alleviate by stating to the world at large what you beleive? Or are you truly trying to provoke the fight that you claim not to be trying to provoke? Your OP certainly draws no conclusions towards debate (or indeed discussion of any form). Is it spam then?

No, I simply replied to a question asked by someone with honesty. I was attempting to clarify that there were many good reasons to turn down a "bargain" with the God figure, and that the two primary ones were either a refusal to be blackmailed, or a disbeleif that there is, in fact, an answer.

Since you obviously don't want to debate on the subject (you say so in your first post), I am at a loss about what "constructive" input you want from me? Back patting sympathies for your beleifs that I don't mean?

If I were trying to evangelize, I would do it. In case you did not see, I said that this is what I believe, and what other people thought about what I believed. I was not arguing the existance of a God, or lack there of. I was curious what others though about my beliefs about God, and I had hoped others would share theirs. If you would like to articulate what you think about my beliefs, please be specific. If you think my entire paradigm if flawed because I believe in a higher being, that's fine. But the least you can do is be polite about it.

Another venue you might want to persue if to say "I don't believe in a God. This is why. What do you think about that?" Then I could say "This is why I believe in God." And if neither of us can persuade eachother, then we can agree to disagree. I said you are not going to CONVINCE me that God does not exist, but I am quite willing to listen to and talk about alternate viewpoints. If I did not state that clearly enough in my first post, I apologise for the confusion.

Now, I would ask; why you feel that what God offers is Blackmail?

How does one respond to a one-off one line response to an answer to someone elses question? Contructive? What's to construct? I'm not going to refute the existence or lack-thereof of your God, I certainly can't claim to know or care about whether or not it exists (and besides which, like every other member of the God debate, you don't honestly care what anyone else says, you won't be convinced. You said so in your OP).

If anything, I wonder at the point of your post at all. What do you intend to do with it? Evangelize? If so, why are you driven to such obnoxious, ultimately futile behavior? Is it a coming out of the closet for you? Do you feel as though there is a social pressure that you can only alleviate by stating to the world at large what you beleive? Or are you truly trying to provoke the fight that you claim not to be trying to provoke? Your OP certainly draws no conclusions towards debate (or indeed discussion of any form). Is it spam then?

No, I simply replied to a question asked by someone with honesty. I was attempting to clarify that there were many good reasons to turn down a "bargain" with the God figure, and that the two primary ones were either a refusal to be blackmailed, or a disbeleif that there is, in fact, an answer.

Since you obviously don't want to debate on the subject (you say so in your first post), I am at a loss about what "constructive" input you want from me? Back patting sympathies for your beleifs that I don't mean?


*applause*

And hey, so, but what if I want to repent, but want to live a little first? You know, experience sin, maybe? Just a little bit?

Can I still repent later on?

Of course you can. I have just found, that in my own life, that I am happier when I am NOT sinning. So I try to sin as little as possible.

I'm going to cut up your response and rearrange what you said, so I might better reply. Hope you don't mind.

Do you understand? Any more concerns on this topic?
In general, yes, I think I understand what you are trying to say. I am not completely satisfied with your answer, though, and do have some more concerns. (Please dont think I'm picking on you. These are questions I discuss with anyone who wants to talk about religion, particularly those who seem knowledgeable. Also, I have yet to get an answer I find satisfactory. It is in no way a reflection upon you if I do not leave this thread satisfied.) So, with that out of the way, to business.


That is an interesting issue. I'd like to share a passage from the Doctrine and Covenats: D&C 122:7 and if thou should be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentance of death passed upon thee; if thout be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy, if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elemnts vombine to hedge up the wat; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good
Thank you for that quote. I do not follow the Book of Mormon or Mormon Bible, since I was raise Roman Catholic. Nonetheless, it is poetic and meaningful.

As to the logic behind the quote - it is basically saying the ends justify the means. But, morally speaking, is that acceptable. Perhaps its acceptable for God, but lets put God aside, for a moment. Is it acceptable for a human to say the ends justify the means? Is it okay for a parent to beat his or her child so that the child does not steal? Even if the parent beats the child so hard that the child is scarred for the rest of his or her life? I am going to go out on a limb here and say no. Even if a positive lesson is learned - not to steal - the extreme ways in which this lesson is taught is unacceptable.

Lets, then, transition this to God. We shall continue with my examply of a mother dying and leaving behind young children. Even if the death of the mother has positive impacts on the children, teaches them to be strong and to empathize, and to respect and love and honor life, and its fragility, do the benefits of these lessons outweigh the lifelong emotional scars the children will have to deal with? I do not think so. This, then, is why I do not find this response satisfactory.


This is what God said to Joseph Smith after spending several months in a county jail. Smith was our first prophet, and he was tarred and feathered several times, had multiple murder appempts, and was eventually assinated at Carthage jail. We believe that he was a prophet of God, yet he was allowed to suffer and be murdered. Why? Becuase our trials and tribulations will give us strength. God does not allow his eternal plan to be disrupted, that's why he parted the red sea and all that. He still allows all of us to suffer trials so that we can, hopefully, learn and grow from them.

Also, if God didn't allow the big disasters to happen, like Katrina, the Holocaust, etc, where would the dividing line be drawn where he wouldn't allow somthing to happen? He has to let things happen, especially in situations like the Holocaust; if he had stopped Hitler, he would have been infringing on Hitler's free will to do with his life what he would. He would not letting Hitler be tested.
This I understand. Its the free-will phenomon. For God to allow for free will, there has to be opportunity for terrible things, like all the suffering Joseph Smith experienced, and like all the monstrous actions of Hitler. People have the freedom to act, those actions have consequences, sometimes horrible ones. I understand and can accept all of this.

I do not understand Katrina, unless one argues it was a result of global warming. Why should hundreds of people die, because of a weather pattern? If God is all powerful, and may not interfere with free will, God should still be able to interfere with weather patterns!

On a further level, what would the word be like if God did not allow bad things to happen to good people? Everyone would be good. There would not be any difficulty in following Christ if good things always happened to good people and bad things always happened to bad people.
Logical enough. Plus, I suppose, "the reward is in heaven". How about we replace good people with innocent, then. Also, I do not think bad people should have bad things happen to them. If God is all-loving why does he let bad things happen to any one at all? (please do not repeat the Holocaust example. I mean, like cancer, or an anurism, or something that is not caused by someone else or ones self, but is simply "fate").

Also, a there are several Biblical rebuttles to your ascertation about everyone doing good. See Sodom and Ghomorra or the story of Noah's Ark for examples.


I personally believe that those people who are put into terrible situations are those who are strong enought to overcome them. I don't think I would be able to stay commit to God if my mother died when I was three, my father left me and I was left with nothing. I personally belive that those who are in those situations are stronger, better people than me. They have to be to overcome what they've been through.
Ah, the "God only gives people what they can handle" arguement. There may be truth to this. But why should anyone have to handle it at all? This isnt a very good rebuttle, I know. This seems to be your best arguement. Remember it for future discussions! ;) (I'm still not convinced, but I concede its a good point)

Finally, if someone good dies, it may just be their time. They've completed what they needed to do and learn in this life and are ready to learn more in the next.
Another common arguement. My response is: bullshit. There is plenty of good that could've been done by plenty of people if they'd lived longer. Again, take the mother example. Everyone dies, this is a fact of life that I can accept. But my neighbor's mother died before she even graduated from grade school. Surely there is much the mother could've taught her daughter had she lived to see her daughter marry, or have children. Children need parents. It is something nearly everyone recognizes. Why is it okay for God to tear them away?

One note, we believe that those who die before the age of acountability, eight years old, are not capable of comitting sin, since their brains have not developed enough to truely understand what sin is. We belive that all young children who die go to the highest level of heaven, the Celestial Kingdom.
This specifically is not something I am familiar with, but I am familiar of the definition of sin. Sin has 2 parts, 1st, knowing what you are doing is wrong, and 2nd, doing it regardless. Clearly an act that is wrong but done without the knowledge it is wrong is not a sin. So I understand this point.

I hope I was clear. I'd be happy to specify on any point, if you like.
PS, I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me.

Of course you can. I have just found, that in my own life, that I am happier when I am NOT sinning. So I try to sin as little as possible.

Well, I have found, in my own life, that I am happier sinning. At least, for the moment. If that changes, I will be sure not to.

And so then, I'm set. Celestial Kingdom, HERE I COME!!

Actually, I'm not going there. I amgoing to hell. Even if Christ shows up to offer me goodness for repentance, I'll spit in his eye and laugh while I fall.

Cause I refuse to apologize for doing things that I like that don't hurt others. And I refuse to follow a god thats as much of a bitch as the Christian god. Damn, I despise that dude.

I do not believe I am a bigot, nor am I a person who thinks irrationally. Both my wife and I were brought up as church attending Christians to believe in a wise, all-knowing , merciful God.
Three years ago my wife was diagnosed with an incurable cancer. For all but 2 months since then she has been in ever increasing pain. She is now confined to bed, where sleep is the only relief from excruciating pain.
Neither of us now retain the slightest belief in God. What sort of compassionate Being would put my wife, myself, and our three children through such torture.
Please now tell me why my wife will end up in hell because she is not a believer. By the way do not try to rely on the cop-out that she will find God in the end--that is simply not in any way possible.

Of course you can. I have just found, that in my own life, that I am happier when I am NOT sinning. So I try to sin as little as possible.
You should learn how to use the quote feature when posting, it avoids confusion of who your responding to. just click on the thing that says "quote"

If I were trying to evangelize, I would do it. In case you did not see, I said that this is what I believe, and what other people thought about what I believed. I was not arguing the existance of a God, or lack there of. I was curious what others though about my beliefs about God, and I had hoped others would share theirs. If you would like to articulate what you think about my beliefs, please be specific. If you think my entire paradigm if flawed because I believe in a higher being, that's fine. But the least you can do is be polite about it.

I tend to be passive-agressive. If you don't push an issue, I won't push back. I was answering a question with the first post I made in this thread, not stating a personal beleif. It is logical to assume that a response to my answer is a criticism of my answer, and therefore the cause to open debate. I did so by responding exactly the way you did. A short statement based upon personal preference and not around logical argument.

Another venue you might want to persue if to say "I don't believe in a God. This is why. What do you think about that?" Then I could say "This is why I believe in God." And if neither of us can persuade eachother, then we can agree to disagree. I said you are not going to CONVINCE me that God does not exist, but I am quite willing to listen to and talk about alternate viewpoints. If I did not state that clearly enough in my first post, I apologise for the confusion.

I still don't understand what the purpose of arguing with you is. If you state that no matter what argument is made, you will not change your position, why should I waste my time arguing the issue? I honestly don't give a damn whether or not a God exists, and so that's certainly not an issue I care to debate anyway. So I ask you. If I will not be able to convince you with argument, why should I bother?

Now, I would ask; why you feel that what God offers is Blackmail?

If a God exists, and it's bargain falls in line with that of the traditional stance of the Judeo-christian religion, where if you do what the figure wants and get rewarded with eternal life in a "good" place (I fail to see how any eternal life would be good, but hey, I have a short attention span), or do what the figure doesn't want and get eternal life in a "Bad" place (arguably, both are equal torment, since as X and 2X approach infinity in value for X, there is no appreciatable difference between the two values), then it is demanding that we abandon our own ability to judge right or wrong (therefore losing the "free will" that it clams exists) or suffer. Obviously blackmail is the wrong word (extortion? Menacing behaviour?). So, to fit with the "bargain" of God, we have to take economic harm, moral harm, loss of time and effort, and try to make others accept the bargain. If we don't do this, we "burn for eternity".

I don't know what you call that, but I call that extortion (blackmail is technically the wrong word, from a legal standpoint, I guess).

I do not believe I am a bigot, nor am I a person who thinks irrationally. Both my wife and I were brought up as church attending Christians to believe in a wise, all-knowing , merciful God.
Three years ago my wife was diagnosed with an incurable cancer. For all but 2 months since then she has been in ever increasing pain. She is now confined to bed, where sleep is the only relief from excruciating pain.
Neither of us now retain the slightest belief in God. What sort of compassionate Being would put my wife, myself, and our three children through such torture.
Please now tell me why my wife will end up in hell because she is not a believer. By the way do not try to rely on the cop-out that she will find God in the end--that is simply not in any way possible.

Because she left him, if you were a Christian, why would you want to turn away if your going to die? Wouldn't you want the comfort of heaven over pain, if you truly believed that would happen? Yes, that is a bad situation, but I think in your rage you want to point the blame at something.

I am not pointing the blame at God. I am simply trying to understand how a merciful being can allow such pain to happen. As I can find no rational answer, the only explanation is that God does not exist.

It's all good. I love talking about this stuff.

First of all, just to clarify, we use the King James Translation of the Bible, for English at least. We don't have our own translation. Joseph Smith did go through section of the Bible and offer clarification for it, but in our bibles those are footnotes.

Before I go on, our church believes that marrige and family is eternal. You will see you family again in the afterlife.

About a parent beating their child, I don't think it is correct to ever do anything that will emotionaly scar a child. I do think, however, that it is very important to dicipline your children, to teach them that there is right and wrong, and that there are consquences for doing wrong. Where that line lies of where dicipline stops and abuse begins, I do not know, but I try to stay as far away from it as possible. And I do not advocate beating children.

To Katrina, if God stopped hurricanes, should he stop firestorms caused by lightening? Should he stop mudslides? How about sunburns? I think, in order to be consistant, God does not stop naturally occuring events. We may disagree here, but I think that this is an all or nothing case, that if God stopped massive earthquakes because they hurt people, he would also have to stop bug bites. Again, we may disagree.

About a mother dying early, I don't have a good answer for you right now. I will think and pray on it, though. I do know that they are promised that they will see eachother again. I also think that any trial that you are able to overcome and grow from is a good thing, and the benifits and rewards you will gain from that growth will, in the eternal time frame, far outstretch the pain you felt in your mortal life.

About God letting bad things happen to people, consider this. If you have a little boy, who is two years old, and is bent on touching lightbulbs, for example, you, as a responsible parents, will of course tell him to not touch the light bulb. The are hot, they will burn you, and it will hurt. If they persist, if they still want to touch that lightbulb, even after you have told them and told them that you shouldn't, you have two options. Stop them for touching a lightbulb for a very long time, or let him touch it and learn for himself that he shouldn't touch it. It won't kill him, and I gaurentee that he won't touch a lightbulb for a very long time. This is how we gain experience and wisdom, by doing the wrong thing and learning from it. In the same way, I believe, God allows his children to suffer, to learn and gain experience to themselves to prepare them for a new level of existance and understanding.

We also believe that Christ not only suffered for our sins, but endured all of our hardships as well. He knows what it's like to murder, and what it's like to die of skin cancer. In our doctrine, suffering will allow us to have a fuller appreciation for Christ's sacrifice AND to be able to find comfort in Christ when we do have trials.

Noah's Ark and Soddom and Ghomorra were special examples. With Noah, him and his family were the only people on the face of the earth who were not wicked. The only ones. With Soddom and Ghomorra, Lot and his family were the only ones. They, the Earth and the cities, had become so corrupt and evil that they would have interfered with God's plan. Another point of view is that it was better for those people to die not allow more souls to be born in such corruption. I personally believe that it is a mixture of the two.

"God only gives people what they can handle," why should they handle it? So they can first of all, gain experience, and second, prove that they are still willing to obey God, even when their situation isn't ideal, even when it's terrible.

Again, I need to take some time and think about a mother dying in her early life. I do think that if her children needed her, that they would not be able to overcome her death, that God would not allow her do die of natural causes.

What do you think?

I am not pointing the blame at God. I am simply trying to understand how a merciful being can allow such pain to happen. As I can find no rational answer, the only explanation is that God does not exist.

because your trying to get something materialistic out of Christianity.
God says in the Bible that Christians lives aren't going to be a walk in the park, so I always expect hardships. I pray for strength, and move on. I also believe that I never know what's in store for me, sometimes something good comes out of a completely devastating situation. This happenned in my family, and we did loose a very loved one, who suffered for the last several years of his life. At first he said, God why me, but he eventually saw how God was bringing him closer to him. He began to speak to others about his experience and saved people's lives. God might allow this to happen to test your faith because it obviously isn't strong enough.

God shows his mercy by taking us back from our own destruction, and giving us an eternal peace in heaven. This peace lasts an infinity times more than any pain experienced in this short life.

If a God exists, and it's bargain falls in line with that of the traditional stance of the Judeo-christian religion, where if you do what the figure wants and get rewarded with eternal life in a "good" place (I fail to see how any eternal life would be good, but hey, I have a short attention span), or do what the figure doesn't want and get eternal life in a "Bad" place (arguably, both are equal torment, since as X and 2X approach infinity in value for X, there is no appreciatable difference between the two values), then it is demanding that we abandon our own ability to judge right or wrong (therefore losing the "free will" that it clams exists) or suffer. Obviously blackmail is the wrong word (extortion? Menacing behaviour?). So, to fit with the "bargain" of God, we have to take economic harm, moral harm, loss of time and effort, and try to make others accept the bargain. If we don't do this, we "burn for eternity".


Eternity in heaven, where you get to hang out with an all powerful god who loves you, surrounded by people you care for, in bliss where you can progress, learn, and by happy forever, or spend eternity in Hell with Satan and burn... hmmm, which sounds better?

It seems to be that you are very angry about this subject, for what reason I can't understand. Also, the only sin that cannot be forgiven is denying God after you KNOW he exists, not after you have faith, not after you believe, but after you know. That is the only way to get into hell. And even if you do not want to be forgiven, the world you live in forever if infinately better than this one. Is this the work of a malicious god? I think we disagree on a fundamental level on what the nature of God is.


Neither of us now retain the slightest belief in God. What sort of compassionate Being would put my wife, myself, and our three children through such torture.
Please now tell me why my wife will end up in hell because she is not a believer. By the way do not try to rely on the cop-out that she will find God in the end--that is simply not in any way possible.

To put it simply, it's not my place to tell you. That is between your family and God. But would you rather have a life where you had NO hardships at all? Where nothing ever went wrong? Considering we are all flawed, inperfect individuals, I don't think I'd want to live in that world.

And you wife will not go to hell. Did the two of you KNOW, without a shadow of a doubt, that God lived? If not, then the two of you don't even qualify to be a son, or daughter, or perdition, who are the only ones who are thrust down to Hell. At least, that's what I belive.

And don't think I haven't lost people that I loved.

Eternity in heaven, where you get to hang out with an all powerful god who loves you, surrounded by people you care for, in bliss where you can progress, learn, and by happy forever, or spend eternity in Hell with Satan and burn... hmmm, which sounds better?

It seems to be that you are very angry about this subject, for what reason I can't understand. Also, the only sin that cannot be forgiven is denying God after you KNOW he exists, not after you have faith, not after you believe, but after you know. That is the only way to get into hell. And even if you do not want to be forgiven, the world you live in forever if infinately better than this one. Is this the work of a malicious god? I think we disagree on a fundamental level on what the nature of God is.

God is one of three things.

Either:

A) He doesn't really give a damn, and falls into the category of the deist god, the clockmaker. If this is the case he is irrelivent.

B) He doesn't exist. If this is the case, he's also irrelevant.

C) He is a controlling bastard who requires people to follow his rules or suffer for eternity, while putting on the pretense of offering "free will" and the pretense of "love". In this case, those that grant him authority are surrending to a basically immoral creature. Therefore, it is rational and moral to treat him as irrelevant.

I do not choose to blind myself by attempting to make excuses for the evils and excesses praticed by the so-called "God of Love" by offering empty platitudes and excuses based on words alone.

I'd rather burn in hell that bend my knee to a controling, moralizing authoritarian in the sky.

C) He is a controlling bastard who requires people to follow his rules or suffer for eternity, while putting on the pretense of offering "free will" and the pretense of "love". In this case, those that grant him authority are surrending to a basically immoral creature. Therefore, it is rational and moral to treat him as irrelevant.

I do not choose to blind myself by attempting to make excuses for the evils and excesses praticed by the so-called "God of Love" by offering empty platitudes and excuses based on words alone.

I'd rather burn in hell that bend my knee to a controling, moralizing authoritarian in the sky.

If that's really what you think, then I truely feel sorry for you.

God is one of three things.

Either:

A) He doesn't really give a damn, and falls into the category of the deist god, the clockmaker. If this is the case he is irrelivent.

B) He doesn't exist. If this is the case, he's also irrelevant.

C) He is a controlling bastard who requires people to follow his rules or suffer for eternity, while putting on the pretense of offering "free will" and the pretense of "love". In this case, those that grant him authority are surrending to a basically immoral creature. Therefore, it is rational and moral to treat him as irrelevant.

I do not choose to blind myself by attempting to make excuses for the evils and excesses praticed by the so-called "God of Love" by offering empty platitudes and excuses based on words alone.

I'd rather burn in hell that bend my knee to a controling, moralizing authoritarian in the sky.

you can choose that path of destruction, but I think
a, he does care that's why he sent his son
b,he exists, that's why the world does
c,he offers a way out, the reason his rules should be followed is because he's the only true God, any rules set by anyone or anything else would be false and worthless

So God created pain to test people. God created the tsunami to test people? Sorry, but I would like to live in a world where there is no pain, grief, hardship, torture, famine, disease etc. If God created everything, he is responsible for all of these things.
I would prefer not to believe in a supreme being, if that being only used me as a plaything to be tested

I am not pointing the blame at God. I am simply trying to understand how a merciful being can allow such pain to happen. As I can find no rational answer, the only explanation is that God does not exist.
I'm sorry about your wife, and her pain, and your entire family's suffering.:(

you can choose that path of destruction, but I think
a, he does care that's why he sent his son
b,he exists, that's why the world does
c,he offers a way out, the reason his rules should be followed is because he's the only true God, any rules set by anyone or anything else would be false and worthless

A) means nothing. If he's truly all capable then the loss of his son was unnecessary. If he's not all capable, then he's not important. In fact, the whole "He sent his son" nonesuch makes no sense. Why would he bother? If he was truly all-powerful, then he wouldn't need to. Either he sent his son as a guilt trip, or he didn't and there's no God.

B) So the magic God came out of nothing, just like the magic Big Bang? Lemme tell you, I aint convinced by any of the creation stories, since they're all equally impossible given what we know right now.

C) Following the rules of a meaningless dictator is immoral. It sacrifices the ability to make your own rational moral descisions. Therefore it abandons your moral duty to try and do good. Therefore, by that logic, accepting the "law of God" is a choice to not carry out your moral duty, and therefore immoral in nature.

I've chosen a path of destruction, all right, and I'm following it with my middle finger held high? You wanna know why? Because if God is the great dictator in the sky, I have the moral high ground. If not, it's irrelevant anyway.

"God only gives people what they can handle," why should they handle it? So they can first of all, gain experience, and second, prove that they are still willing to obey God, even when their situation isn't ideal, even when it's terrible.
Again, I need to take some time and think about a mother dying in her early life. I do think that if her children needed her, that they would not be able to overcome her death, that God would not allow her do die of natural causes.

What do you think?
I think I am very tired (its 2 am, my time) and I only skimmed over your response. In the morning if I get a chance I shall try to fully respond to your post.

The part I bolded is something else I dont understand, not directly relevant to my first post. Why does God test people? If a husband loves his wife, he does not set up a situation for her to be unfaithful to test her fidelity. He loves her, and knows that she loves him. To test is mean, immature, and dumb. Besides, its not like God doesnt already know all things.

I'm sorry I cant fully reply. I'm glad I've given you something to think about and pray over.

Speaking of praying, my aunt was just diagnosed with breast cancer. For various reasons, I don't pray for people any more. Would you, and any one else who reads this and honestly prays to a god of any sort please think of my aunt, and all women who are fighting breast cancer?

I am not asking for anyone to be sorry for me, I am asking for an explanation why God allows (sorry Demands for he is all powerful) such pain. Please do not come back with the hoary old chestnut---"He moves in mysterious ways". That is always the response given by someone who will not address the issue.
I join kinda sensible with my finger in the air.

God shows his mercy by taking us back from our own destruction, and giving us an eternal peace in heaven. This peace lasts an infinity times more than any pain experienced in this short life.

God shows his mercy by drawing us back from the brink of our own destruction and showing us the way to peace not only in heaven but here on earth. One of the interesting things that you can learn from discussions with a theology major is that in the New Testament, the Greek word that is used for "salvation" or "saved" is SO, sigma-omega. It is used to mean "made whole", rather than the conventional meaning of "saved" (e.g. saved from eternal damnation).

As such, it appears that God wishes us first to make this world a better place.

Why does God wish us to make this world a better place? Why does he not do it himself?

I am not asking for anyone to be sorry for me, I am asking for an explanation why God allows (sorry Demands for he is all powerful) such pain. Please do not come back with the hoary old chestnut---"He moves in mysterious ways". That is always the response given by someone who will not address the issue.
I join kinda sensible with my finger in the air.

God allows such things because God allowed us free will and these are the things that we have released from Pandora's Box. For me, the hard times in my life (and there have been a number) have been times that made me a better person. With God's help, I was able to get good out of the bad.

I know that it is not that way for everyone, and I can't really speak to whatever pain you are in because I don't know it.

I am not asking for anyone to be sorry for me, I am asking for an explanation why God allows (sorry Demands for he is all powerful) such pain. Please do not come back with the hoary old chestnut---"He moves in mysterious ways". That is always the response given by someone who will not address the issue.
I join kinda sensible with my finger in the air.


I think I will join you two as well.

Perhaps we should form a movment.

My wife is dying in great pain. How will this experience make her a better person?

God allows such things because God allowed us free will and these are the things that we have released from Pandora's Box. For me, the hard times in my life (and there have been a number) have been times that made me a better person. With God's help, I was able to get good out of the bad.

I know that it is not that way for everyone, and I can't really speak to whatever pain you are in because I don't know it.

Free will is a bit of a sham. I think. A bit tired to reason well, but there's always the whole "God knows what will happen, and therefore you cannot choose differently anyway" bit.

Free will is a bit of a sham. I think. A bit tired to reason well, but there's always the whole "God knows what will happen, and therefore you cannot choose differently anyway" bit.

Free will is a sham? By your reasoning (as I understand it), free will is a sham because God is omniscient and is therefore able to know all things, including what you will do. But if we accept that God is benevolent (as in Christianity), then if there is no free will, the bad in the world must have been created by God, disproving our own postulate that God exists and is good.

Free will is a sham? By your reasoning (as I understand it), free will is a sham because God is omniscient and is therefore able to know all things, including what you will do. But if we accept that God is benevolent (as in Christianity), then if there is no free will, the bad in the world must have been created by God, disproving our own postulate that God exists and is good.

But God doesn't exist, you see? Anyway, I do not accept that God (if he exists) is benevolent. Looking at, if nothing else, natural disasters (you cannot argue that those are necessary to free will) show me that God is one baaad mothafucka.

And the bad in the world was created by God in any case, as he created everything. If He had not created evil, it would not exist at all.

I think we have finally reached the nub of the matter. If God exists he DID CREATE the bad in the world. As an all powerful being it can only have come from him.
My own belief is that there is no God which helps me to accept this pain.

Now, we could all gain bodies, that was easy, but God couldn’t let us all get a free ticket into heaven, that would be irresponsible. We had to prove that we were willing to always follow him, to follow his commandments, ie, be good. This posed a problem, because in order to be tested, there had to be the possibility to fail, which meant that some of us might not make it back to Heaven and be forever separated from God. The other, much larger problem is that in order to be tested, we had to have the opportunity to sin, and since none of his children, except one (Christ), was perfect, we would all sin. And, since you had to be sinless to get back into Heaven, we would all fail our test and be forever separated from God, ie, thrust down to Hell. To solve this problem, Christ, who was perfect, and our literal brother, offered to suffer for all of the sins of mankind, to pay the price for all sin, and thus allow the rest of us to repent and be able to make it back to Heaven. So God created Earth, made us in HIS IMAGE, and a few thousand years later he sent his son to die for us.

So he needed to test us, except his test was a little too hard, and he gave up on it, and decided to just let us repent and pass anyway?
That's like a teacher saying, "OK, sorry class, I made the test a bit too hard. How 'bout this? You just write your name on the paper and I'll give you a hundred."

What is all the good/evil fuss about if all that matters is repentance?

(arguably, both are equal torment, since as X and 2X approach infinity in value for X, there is no appreciatable difference between the two values).

Sophistry.

In the functions X and 2X, as X--> infinity, the difference (2X - X) --> infinity.
They get farther apart, dumbass.

What is all the good/evil fuss about if all that matters is repentance?

That's what Paul said:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

And as for the X and 2X issue:

Hell would be either a zero or a negative x (depending on whether you consider it to be just a total lack of enjoyability or actively unenjoyable). Therefore, the difference as time approaches infinity will also be infinity.

What is all the good/evil fuss about if all that matters is repentance?

Could it be that morals actually depend on something independent of religion?
No, that couldn't possibly be the case.
Morals justified as a means to enabling a free society (and thus more profitable life)? Yeah right. Only God could inspire something like morals.

"I feel better when I'm not sinning" (may not be an exact quote)

So since we've determined that your religion is completely amoral (not immoral, amoral), what purpose does it serve?

Could it be that morals actually depend on something independent of religion?
No, that couldn't possibly be the case.
Morals justified as a means to enabling a free society (and thus more profitable life)? Yeah right. Only God could inspire something like morals.

"I feel better when I'm not sinning" (may not be an exact quote)

So since we've determined that your religion is completely amoral (not immoral, amoral), what purpose does it serve?
I've got news for you: we haven't "determined" shit. Most of us kinda ignored you while you sat in your corner arguing about how anything such as religion which is moral is therefore immoral. I don't have time to argue this in depth this late at night, but I'll get back to you tomorrow.

Perhaps one of the most interesting results of the internet is its ability to explore people's beliefs in a forum such as this one. Christians, Muslims, and other world religions have for centuries enjoyed their own support groups of communal prayer, singing and sermons etc where hard questions are not asked. As I move from belief to agnosticism and beyond, I would have loved an opportunity to stand up in the pulpit and ask the hard questions which were never addressed by our minister. or more properly PREACHER. I have to say that I have always turned away Mormons from my door. I now realise how right I was to do so. I have rarely read such mumbo-jumbo as set down by Prycon.
I may be wrong in my understanding of the universe but at least I have grappled to understand who I am. I believe that I am a better person for making the attempt. I will care for my wife and family, but there is simply no way that I will ever accept the existence of a benevolent God.

I've got news for you: we haven't "determined" shit. Most of us kinda ignored you while you sat in your corner arguing about how anything such as religion which is moral is therefore immoral. I don't have time to argue this in depth this late at night, but I'll get back to you tomorrow.

If morality isn't a factor in the afterlife, then obviously morality isn't an integral part of the religion - a religion which bases all of its legitimacy on the afterlife and how no one knows what happens and therefore they can't be proven wrong.
Anyway, did you mean you'd get back to me on this forum... I might forget to come back...

"Religion which is moral"
Huh? I can see the late-night-ness. Wonder what I look like.

Perhaps one of the most interesting results of the internet is its ability to explore people's beliefs in a forum such as this one. Christians, Muslims, and other world religions have for centuries enjoyed their own support groups of communal prayer, singing and sermons etc where hard questions are not asked. As I move from belief to agnosticism and beyond, I would have loved an opportunity to stand up in the pulpit and ask the hard questions which were never addressed by our minister. or more properly PREACHER. I have to say that I have always turned away Mormons from my door. I now realise how right I was to do so. I have rarely read such mumbo-jumbo as set down by Prycon.
I may be wrong in my understanding of the universe but at least I have grappled to understand who I am. I believe that I am a better person for making the attempt. I will care for my wife and family, but there is simply no way that I will ever accept the existence of a benevolent God.

See, I wouldn't turn mormons away, I'd invie them in, talk with them, start a debate, maybe. Cause I prefer arguement and debate in person, rather than over a forum. Much more fun, and one can mess with the opposition much more easily. Lots of fun. Maybe take a fat bong rip while chilling in front of them, to unnerve them. Unless I thought they'd call the cops.

They probably would.

My question to you is how do you and the LDS church in general answer many of the claims that people levy against your beliefs? Such as the book of mormon being archaeologically and historically unsupported and contradicted, plagiarized, sometimes contradictory to actual mormon beliefs, contrary to Biblical belief, etc. Or what about the controversy and skepticism surrounding the events of Joseph Smith's supposed translation of the tablets?

I've read a lot of these types of articles, but I've never really been able to give a mormon a chance to defend themselves from these allegations.

For example, an article like this: http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/bomproblems.htm

Perhaps one of the most interesting results of the internet is its ability to explore people's beliefs in a forum such as this one. Christians, Muslims, and other world religions have for centuries enjoyed their own support groups of communal prayer, singing and sermons etc where hard questions are not asked. As I move from belief to agnosticism and beyond, I would have loved an opportunity to stand up in the pulpit and ask the hard questions which were never addressed by our minister. or more properly PREACHER. I have to say that I have always turned away Mormons from my door. I now realise how right I was to do so. I have rarely read such mumbo-jumbo as set down by Prycon.
I may be wrong in my understanding of the universe but at least I have grappled to understand who I am. I believe that I am a better person for making the attempt. I will care for my wife and family, but there is simply no way that I will ever accept the existence of a benevolent God.

Good observation.

*bows*

Your superstition is full of holes

OK, so I don't beleve this ether but that was prity harsh

OK, so I don't beleve this ether but that was prity harshWhy? It's a superstitious belief, centered around the paradox of a benign deity that mostly concerns itself with making people miserable.

I think the bit you quoted summed it up quite nicely.

How does one respond to a one-off one line response to an answer to someone elses question? Contructive? What's to construct? I'm not going to refute the existence or lack-thereof of your God, I certainly can't claim to know or care about whether or not it exists (and besides which, like every other member of the God debate, you don't honestly care what anyone else says, you won't be convinced. You said so in your OP).

If anything, I wonder at the point of your post at all. What do you intend to do with it? Evangelize? If so, why are you driven to such obnoxious, ultimately futile behavior? Is it a coming out of the closet for you? Do you feel as though there is a social pressure that you can only alleviate by stating to the world at large what you beleive? Or are you truly trying to provoke the fight that you claim not to be trying to provoke? Your OP certainly draws no conclusions towards debate (or indeed discussion of any form). Is it spam then?

No, I simply replied to a question asked by someone with honesty. I was attempting to clarify that there were many good reasons to turn down a "bargain" with the God figure, and that the two primary ones were either a refusal to be blackmailed, or a disbeleif that there is, in fact, an answer.

Since you obviously don't want to debate on the subject (you say so in your first post), I am at a loss about what "constructive" input you want from me? Back patting sympathies for your beleifs that I don't mean?

I remember somone did an "ask a muslim" thread, that was very informative and I beleve illuminating for those who decided to participate. I enjoy learning about other views and I know next to nothing about the CLDS, now I know more. I see the point, if you do not you are free to leave the thread.
Thank you

Why? It's a superstitious belief, centered around the paradox of a benign deity that mostly concerns itself with making people miserable.

I think the bit you quoted summed it up quite nicely.

What have you got against religion, realy? It may seem like superstition to you but it makes him happy, gives him a place in the cosmos.
Isn't that good enough (Worried we may be hi-jacking this)

My Opinion: Religion can, and has been a force for good in the world, but if it is used as an excuse to break the law, perform evil acts (like genocide and such), and hate those who don't believe exactly the way you do (example, hollering "Allah Akbar!" as your jetliner plows into a highrise), then it must be tempered from within and resisted (violently if necessary) from without...

A) means nothing. If he's truly all capable then the loss of his son was unnecessary. If he's not all capable, then he's not important. In fact, the whole "He sent his son" nonesuch makes no sense. Why would he bother? If he was truly all-powerful, then he wouldn't need to. Either he sent his son as a guilt trip, or he didn't and there's no God.

B) So the magic God came out of nothing, just like the magic Big Bang? Lemme tell you, I aint convinced by any of the creation stories, since they're all equally impossible given what we know right now.

C) Following the rules of a meaningless dictator is immoral. It sacrifices the ability to make your own rational moral descisions. Therefore it abandons your moral duty to try and do good. Therefore, by that logic, accepting the "law of God" is a choice to not carry out your moral duty, and therefore immoral in nature.

I've chosen a path of destruction, all right, and I'm following it with my middle finger held high? You wanna know why? Because if God is the great dictator in the sky, I have the moral high ground. If not, it's irrelevant anyway.

A. Very well put

B. Vacuums don't actualy exist...electrons apper and disapper constantly within them...this is (as far as we know) scientific fact. Now make the void infinate, over all dimentions completly without boundary. "God" could come out of pure potentiality, particuly in a universe where there is nothing for physics to excert itself, therefore no physical laws, therefore no possable or imposable. So ether god is posability manafest...or an uber-electron.
Or come out with your own solution, which will involve the universe coming out of nothing anyways (good luck).

C. Also, a very good point.

I think I'll meet you in hell

My Opinion: Religion can, and has been a force for good in the world, but if it is used as an excuse to break the law, perform evil acts (like genocide and such), and hate those who don't believe exactly the way you do (example, hollering "Allah Akbar!" as your jetliner plows into a highrise), then it must be tempered from within and resisted (violently if necessary) from without...

Agreed.

Now if I may put a question or two to Prycon;

1. Why doesn't god give us conclusive proof he exists now, and then test us?...it'ld be nice to see the question before we gave the answers

2. If we are the children of a perfect god and a perfect godess, why are we not perfect

3. If god knows what will happen (does he?) why let us run out this fasicle in the first place?

4. Why is no attention paid to the mother of all creation?

5. Do angels exist, and if so what are the names and hirachy of the choirs?

6. Isn't it realy unfair to ex-comunicate (and therefore damn eternaly?) your own numbers for an act retroactivly declared a crime?

Err...thats it for now, blessed be

Three levels, yes. The lowest is the Telestial, compared to the Glory of the stars. It is better than anything we can comprehend. Out of the Godhead, only the Holy Ghost can go here. Such people as Adolf Hitler, Jack the Ripper, and other really nasty people will end up here. Next is the Terrestrial, which is compared to the glory of the Moon. Christ can visit here. People here are generally good people, who just weren't willing to forsake all of their sins and devote themselves to God. Last is the Celestial, which is compared to the glory of the Sun. God lives there. People who accept Christ, forsake their sins, and therefore stand blamless on the judgement day get to go there. You can become a God in the Celestial Kingdom.
Okay I missed a few pages while asleep so forgive me if you have already covered this..

what do you mean by "forsaking their sins"? and who exactly goes to hell?

sorry. I am not used to someone who will actually answer my questions, I am very curious.

Also, I may not get to reply for a while, I am heading out to church in a bit.

I dont normally get involved with religious debate, but I did some looking on the net, and i think this just about sums me up:

Agnosticism

Agnostics hold that the existence of God or any deity is uncertain. Possible reasons for holding this view are a belief that the existence of any deity has not yet been sufficiently proven, that the existence of a deity cannot be proven, or, quite simply, that claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity make no sense. Agnostics may claim that it isn't possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of supernatural beings or, alternatively, that while certainty may be possible, they personally have no such knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

I am not asking for anyone to be sorry for me, I am asking for an explanation why God allows (sorry Demands for he is all powerful) such pain. Please do not come back with the hoary old chestnut---"He moves in mysterious ways". That is always the response given by someone who will not address the issue.
I join kinda sensible with my finger in the air.
I don't have an explanation, I'm searching for one myself. Have been for a very long time. All I was trying to offer was my sympathies.

Well, this is my second try at this board. We’ll see how this round goes.

God doesn't love sin and He doesn't love unrepentent sinners. He yearns for sinners to repent and come home to Him, but He doesn't love sin and wickedness.

Saying "God and Christ" is a somewhat flawed view of Christian truth. God is Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Saying "God and Christ" is like saying Father, Son, Holy Ghost and Son.

First of all, I'm impressed by your courage and honesty.

I was raised Roman Catholic, so u know my perspective. Here's my problem with God, in general. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful and all-loving, why does God let bad things happen. I'm not talking about things that result from sin, like diseases that result from polution or smoking, or victims of crimes. I'm talking about a mother who contracts a cancer and dies, leaving behind children who need a mother. What kind of God allows for the death of a good, loving, person who is still needed in the world?

Being Christian-turned-agnostic, I'll tell you why. God IS all-powerful, but, Satan is pretty powerful too, and occasionally God has to take the lives of the terminally ill because it won't be good for them later. For the people the death affects, it teaches them something.

And note: I do believe in some type of afterlife, but I don't think we'll find out until AFTER we die, or IF the IS a Higher Power (I personally think there may be, but still, we won't find out for sure until after we die).

Being Christian-turned-agnostic, I'll tell you why. God IS all-powerful, but, Satan is pretty powerful too, and occasionally God has to take the lives of the terminally ill because it won't be good for them later. For the people the death affects, it teaches them something.

Dark Nova, please come back to God. He misses you. Hopefully after you get through the hedonistic college environment, you will return to God.

Dark Nova, please come back to God. He misses you. Hopefully after you get through the hedonistic college environment, you will return to God.

I don't go to college... I'm too young. I still am with God... just not in a Christian way. I prefer to take my own path with God, instead of the path that Christianity tells me to take. I do believe in God and an afterlife, I just don't believe Christianity is the way (or the only way) to it. I believe the way to Heaven hasn't *completely* been figured out yet, or there would be a lot more people going there.

Well, this is my second try at this board. We’ll see how this round goes.

Anyway, in skimming the forum, I am impressed about how many people feel that religion is this thing that controls, brainwashes, and seeks to limit the freedoms and happiness of the masses. I would like to propose the idea that this is not true.

---Disclaimer--- I am not interested in a flame war where a bunch of people start screaming at why religion is or is not true, or about how stupid Christian/Muslims/Atheists/whatever are. I simply want to propose my church’s views on the nature of religion and see what other people think about them. Feel free to post your own ideas about what this whole religion thing is about.

First of all, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, more commonly known as a Mormon. Understand that the views of my church are different from almost any other Christian sect. Also understand that we indeed still believe in Christ and the Bible. Finally, this is the abridged version of our beliefs. For the sake of time and typing space, I’ve simplified things. And this is, by no means, the entirety of our doctrine. If you have questions, feel free to post or go to www.LDS.org.

From the top:
There is a man called God. He is not a spirit, although he possesses one. He has a resurrected, immortal body and is all powerful, all knowing, and all seeing. He has a wife, and therefore God is the LITERAL father of our spirits. God and his wife created all of us before the Earth was created. Now, God loves his children. He wants them to be as happy as possible, and the way to achieve ultimate happiness is to become like him, to gain a body, be resurrected, live with him in Heaven and become a God, have your own children, etc etc. This is where out doctrine really differs from other religions. So, technically, us Mormons are polytheistic, in the fact that we BELIEVE in multiple gods, but we worship one, that is, God, our Heavenly Father.

Now, we could all gain bodies, that was easy, but God couldn’t let us all get a free ticket into heaven, that would be irresponsible. We had to prove that we were willing to always follow him, to follow his commandments, ie, be good. This posed a problem, because in order to be tested, there had to be the possibility to fail, which meant that some of us might not make it back to Heaven and be forever separated from God. The other, much larger problem is that in order to be tested, we had to have the opportunity to sin, and since none of his children, except one (Christ), was perfect, we would all sin. And, since you had to be sinless to get back into Heaven, we would all fail our test and be forever separated from God, ie, thrust down to Hell. To solve this problem, Christ, who was perfect, and our literal brother, offered to suffer for all of the sins of mankind, to pay the price for all sin, and thus allow the rest of us to repent and be able to make it back to Heaven. So God created Earth, made us in HIS IMAGE, and a few thousand years later he sent his son to die for us.

SO, here is the point of religion:
God wants us all to be happy. In order to gain ultimate happiness, we have to be able to make it back to him in Heaven. To be able to get into Heaven, you must be perfect, which is impossible. Christ’s sacrifice made it possible to repent, to atone for our sins. God give us commandments because following them will make us happy, because we are doing the right, the good thing, and because if we follow them to our best ability, we can, through the Grace of Christ, inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Note, we cannot, by our own accord, become perfect; it is only because Christ paid the price for our sins that we are able to be made perfect. And the whole thing is driven by love.

A few other things we believe:
We believe that in order to enter Heaven you must be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, ie, become a member of the Church of Christ. We DO realize that many billions of people have died before Christ’s seven churches or out church came into existence, and that not everyone had the chance to hear it’s message, or even know if its existence. We, therefore, baptize and confirm people in our temples in PROXY of the dead, for them. One of the missions of the Church is to baptize and confirm every soul that has died and is needing of those ordinances. We also believe that in the time after you die and before Judgment day that all those who did not receive the gospel will be preached to in the afterlife and be given the choice to accept Christ as their savior and repent of their sins. The only catch is, you are still the same person in death as in life; if you were a raging racist in life, you still will be in death. So, unfortunately, still not everyone will be willing to repent and go to Heaven.

Finally, we believe that God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct and separate beings. God and Christ have resurrected bodies; the Holy Ghost does not at this time.

I would like to close with my testimony that God and Christ live, that they love each and every one of us, that the Bible and Book of Mormon are the words of God, and that what they contain are true.

Questions, comments, observations, etc are always welcome. Flaming, intolerance, bigotry and the like are not. I would ask, please don’t try to tell me why I am wrong and all religions are false. You won’t convince me, I promise you.
Explain thy self anti-pudding!Just kidding but I've never realy gotten why that certain churches name is sooooo long. And the latter day saints part?Later preists?

I don't go to college... I'm too young. I still am with God... just not in a Christian way. I prefer to take my own path with God, instead of the path that Christianity tells me to take. I do believe in God and an afterlife, I just don't believe Christianity is the way (or the only way) to it. I believe the way to Heaven hasn't *completely* been figured out yet, or there would be a lot more people going there.
*COUGH*Athiest*COUGH

God doesn't love sin and He doesn't love unrepentent sinners. He yearns for sinners to repent and come home to Him, but He doesn't love sin and wickedness.

Saying "God and Christ" is a somewhat flawed view of Christian truth. God is Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Saying "God and Christ" is like saying Father, Son, Holy Ghost and Son.
We all want 2 sons but don't repeat thy self anti-pudding!

I don't go to college... I'm too young. I still am with God... just not in a Christian way. I prefer to take my own path with God, instead of the path that Christianity tells me to take. I do believe in God and an afterlife, I just don't believe Christianity is the way (or the only way) to it. I believe the way to Heaven hasn't *completely* been figured out yet, or there would be a lot more people going there.

Dark Nova, you are so loving to wish for all mankind to go to heaven.

However, our Lord said: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:13-14

God doesn't love sin and He doesn't love unrepentent sinners. He yearns for sinners to repent and come home to Him, but He doesn't love sin and wickedness.

Saying "God and Christ" is a somewhat flawed view of Christian truth. God is Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Saying "God and Christ" is like saying Father, Son, Holy Ghost and Son.
pssssst

mormons dont subscribe to the trinity. as he said in the post you quoted, mormons believe in an actual physical god who had an actual physical son, jesus (and who is the spiritual father of us all)

thus his "god and christ" is correct from the mormon point of view. and since the trinity is unprovable (even by the bible) christian dogma, the mormon view is as likely to be true as any other interpretation of the essence of god.

Dark Novae----if God is all powerful that is the end of the matter as Satan is then irrelevant. Infinite power versus pretty power---no contest.
God has to take the lives of the terminally ill because it is good for them later???. Please explain who created the fatal illness? The only explanation is that it was created by God. In my wife's case, the cancer is literally eating her bones.
Now do you understand why I simply cannot conceive of a merciful, just, benevolent God. We all have to die but why should the passage to death have to be torture? I prefer to live in a world where bad things happen because they happen, not to fulfil God's design. I see no evidence of any sort that there is any God.

Sophistry.

In the functions X and 2X, as X--> infinity, the difference (2X - X) --> infinity.
They get farther apart, dumbass.

There is still no appreciable difference from the human perspective. Both still are infinite, and therefore do not differ from the human perspective. Yes, there are degrees of infinity, no, they do not differ to the human perspective.

Please refrain from using meaningless insults, as they cross the line into actual flames.

*Enters topic, intent on confusing all involved*

So, just what the heck is this God thing anyway?

Dark Nova, you are so loving to wish for all mankind to go to heaven.

However, our Lord said: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:13-14

So the all-capable God can't change this? Or he chooses not to?

If the first is the case, he's no God at all. If the second is the case he's another useless, moralizing creten. What reason is there to worship either?

One distinct pattern I notice in threads like this is the attempt to dismiss God simply on the basis that the whole idea doesn't make sense. The world doesn't work like that. By the same logic, bumblebees should go crashing to the ground once one realizes that they don't understand how they are capable of flying. I would say a more sensible way to go about it is to expound what does make sense.

In Buddhism, there are plenty of teachings that are presented as "expedient means" to lead people to enlightenment. Basically, the idea is that even if you come out and tell someone the absolute truth, they are not going to believe you, so you come up with something that they can believe, even if it's not the entire truth, preach that, and come out and expound the ultimate truth later once people have been practicing what has been preached before.

One example from the secular world I can think of would be physics. When people are taught elementary mechanics, they are told to ignore friction. People are happy to do so because it makes the math simpler and they can get the concepts of energy and momentum down better. Later, people are taught about how to take friction into account and while it makes things more complicated, it makes for more accurate modeling. If one were to have tried teaching friction from the beginning, students would have been overwhelmed and not even tried to learn.

So here's the question: are the teachings of the Mormon religion an expedient means to teach people and prepare them for something that is closer to a more comprehensive truth?

God doesn't love sin and He doesn't love unrepentent sinners. He yearns for sinners to repent and come home to Him, but He doesn't love sin and wickedness.

Saying "God and Christ" is a somewhat flawed view of Christian truth. God is Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Saying "God and Christ" is like saying Father, Son, Holy Ghost and Son.

And saying "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" is a somewhat flawed view of the truth as set down in the Hebrew scripture... yet Christians seem to think it's okay to contradict the earlier text.

yeah... I remember why I ditched last time. Anyway, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. If any of you want to ask any specifics on our doctrine, or continue a discussion, talk about this stuff in general, or whatever, feel free to telegram me or drop me an email at hyunhochang@gmail.com. If not, I'll see you around.

So the all-capable God can't change this? Or he chooses not to?

If the first is the case, he's no God at all. If the second is the case he's another useless, moralizing creten. What reason is there to worship either?

God puts the Message out for the masses. It is up to us to find and, once found, follow it. Few people will find or stay on the straight and narrow path, because it is easier to travle down the wider one, and enraptured by all the false pleasure of the world, easily miss the opportunity to come into God.

I am starting to believe that all religion threads have outlived their usefulness the moment the OP clicks "Submit". No, athiests, this is not more ammo for you. My point is that everyone would rather argue their own position (defensible or no) than listen to anything. I cut my NS General teeth on the "Is there a God" thread (remember that, a few months back? I think it got to around 7000 posts, and was still partly on topic), and have been fairly into the religion-type threads since then. But I have very rarely seen a thread of this type be useful.

Granted, this one has taught me a little about Mormon theology. But in general, the Christians are preaching and the athiests are trying to logically disprove the existence of God. People ask to be convinced of the other's point of view, and then start firing away when someone starts disagreeing with them.