NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm pointing out what appears to be the favored debate tactic of a tremendous section of the forums. It's the tactic of taking a situation or statement and blowing it up into a major issue.

For instance,
S (statement): I disagree with gay marriage. I have no problem with civil unions. We should protect the sanctity of marriage, as it is a religious institution.

Now this is how an opponent will represent the individual who made the statement

R (reply): In that case, you are bigoted and shouldn't even participate in these forums because you hate gay people.

Note that nowhere in that statement does the person claim to hate gays, but it makes them look worse if you exaggerate their statement to include a level of opposition to gay marriage they never claimed.

Or...

S: (News Article) Community members opposed the construction of a mosque (/News Article)
I believe the Muslims building the mosque should avoid conflict by finding a nearby location that doesn't have vehement community opposition.

R: This is clearly a case of Muslims civil rights being threatened, and we must stand behind them and force these community members to halt their violent opposition and prejudiced behavior, by force if necessary, and you are bigoted too for thinking the Muslims should give in to more of America's Muslim hating practices.

Now, here, they invoke civil rights when clearly the gov't has made no attempt to halt the construction of the mosque, and community members have made no violent or illegal gestures toward the Muslim population, but it sounds better to turn this into a repeat of the indignities African-Americans and women suffered in the struggle for civil rights. Also, offering a sensible solution to avoid conflict is turned into supporting a hateful and intolerant sect of murderous gov't conspirators trying to kick the Muslims out of the country.


Be on the lookout for this practice, and when it happens, just CALL THEM ON IT! It is the most effective way to defeat this tactic that I see employed all too often. Don't let them put words in your mouth.

Be on the lookout for this practice, and when it happens, just CALL THEM ON IT! It is the most effective way to defeat this tactic that I see employed all too often. Don't let them put words in your mouth.
Right then, I call you on it right now. Your examples are clearly straw man attacks on liberals. You could at least have tried to show balance.

Why are you trying to stifle free speech? Free speech is one of the pillars of Western Civilization. What kind of barbaric savage are you?

wha...

Yep, heres another example.

Mr X posts 100 posts on how much he hates christianity and it's beliefs. No one cares.

Mr Y complains slightly about the Islamic teachings.

Mr X goes mad and calls Mr Y and biggoted racist, and makes it seem like Mr Y wants to kick all muslims out of his country.

Pure hyprocracy.

Overexaggerating and name-calling is a time-honoured debate tactic. Just look at any Parliament in the world. Why change now? What the hell has civility ever done for us?

R (reply): In that case, you are bigoted and shouldn't even participate in these forums because you hate gay people.


R: This is clearly a case of Muslims civil rights being threatened, and we must stand behind them and force these community members to halt their violent opposition and prejudiced behavior, by force if necessary, and you are bigoted too for thinking the Muslims should give in to more of America's Muslim hating practices.

True and true.

I prefer the non-sequiter approach to debate.

I prefer the non-sequiter approach to debate.
Indeed. Have a cookie.

Right then, I call you on it right now. Your examples are clearly straw man attacks on liberals. You could at least have tried to show balance.

That was actually an accident, and if you think the negative statements I generated are more easily ascribed to liberals, then you said it, not me.


This is NOT an attack on liberals. Conservatives do it too. If you fail to see the validity of this, then I really don't care.

True and true.
I love it when ignorance rears its head. Now, were ALL of those thousands of posts as singularly useless and ridiculously antagonistic as this one?

Sensationalist Overstatement
Lol, just above the "USA is doomed"-thread :p

Overexaggerating and name-calling is a time-honoured debate tactic. Just look at any Parliament in the world. Why change now? What the hell has civility ever done for us?
I never said anyone should stop doing it. I merely pointed it out, and then showed how to defend against it :)

By the way, LOL on the USA Is Doomed juxtaposition

Overexaggerating and name-calling is a time-honoured debate tactic. Just look at any Parliament in the world. Why change now? What the hell has civility ever done for us?

Well it favours liberalism, you can't call a liberal a biggoted racist can you?

Why are you trying to stifle free speech? Free speech is one of the pillars of Western Civilization. What kind of barbaric savage are you?

DCD just won this thread.

Well it favours liberalism, you can't call a liberal a biggoted racist can you?
Sure you can.

You can also tell him he's spelled "bigoted" incorrectly. I normally don't go Grammar Nazi unless it's a spicy word or one used pejoratively. Seems to me if someone's going to bandy about invective, the least they could do is not make themselves look deliberately ignorant.

I never said anyone should stop doing it. I merely pointed it out, and then showed how to defend against it :)

Ah. Gotcha.

Well it favours liberalism, you can't call a liberal a biggoted racist can you?

What favours liberalism? Overreacting, fingerpointing and namecalling? It's neither conservative or liberal. It's just a debate tactic.

And plenty of liberals are bigoted racists. And I'd be happy to point that out, if I weren't so god-damned polite all the time. ;)

Sure you can.

You can also tell him he's spelled "bigoted" incorrectly. I normally don't go Grammar Nazi unless it's a spicy word or one used pejoratively. Seems to me if someone's going to bandy about invective, the least they could do is not make themselves look deliberately ignorant.

It's an easy mistake to make, and i've always been a terrible speller. It doesn't change the argument one bit.

Stinking gramma nazi

Ah. Gotcha.



What favours liberalism? Overreacting, fingerpointing and namecalling? It's neither conservative or liberal. It's just a debate tactic.

And plenty of liberals are bigoted racists. And I'd be happy to point that out, if I weren't so god-damned polite all the time. ;)

Well i was mainly refering to the examples the OP uses.

Let me change it a bit, you may be able to call the liberal racist and bigoted, but not any liberal ideals.

Well i was mainly refering to the examples the OP uses.

Let me change it a bit, you may be able to call the liberal racist and bigoted, but not any liberal ideals.

You certainly could. For instance, many might argue that affirmative action programs are racist, despite their good intentions. That's definitely a product of the 'liberal camp'. Also, PETA, who is definitely on the liberal side of the equation, have been denounced for their 'anti-semitic, holocaust on your plate' commercials that they aired a while back.

And most importantly, I reserve the right to say what I want, even though I may be completely incorrect.

*snip intro*
For instance,
S (statement): I disagree with gay marriage. I have no problem with civil unions. We should protect the sanctity of marriage, as it is a religious institution.

Now this is how an opponent will represent the individual who made the statement

R (reply): In that case, you are bigoted and shouldn't even participate in these forums because you hate gay people.
You had me until here.

I've never read a post in which someone demands another leave the entire forum. It's even rare that someone demands another leave the thread. You're using the tactic you warn against.

Note that nowhere in that statement does the person claim to hate gays, but it makes them look worse if you exaggerate their statement to include a level of opposition to gay marriage they never claimed.
Definitely call someone on that when it happens. Deliberate misinterpretation or exaggeration is a strategy for thoughtless cretins who can barely form sentences, let alone arguments. Agreed.

S: (News Article) Community members opposed the construction of a mosque (/News Article)
I believe the Muslims building the mosque should avoid conflict by finding a nearby location that doesn't have vehement community opposition.

R: This is clearly a case of Muslims civil rights being threatened, and we must stand behind them and force these community members to halt their violent opposition and prejudiced behavior, by force if necessary, and you are bigoted too for thinking the Muslims should give in to more of America's Muslim hating practices.
You lost me again.

Why in the world would Muslims seek to build a mosque outside of an area where Muslims actually live? It's happened here in Seattle. Lots of people just don't want a mosque going up at all. Seems to me the example here is indeed a legitimate response from the "R" voice, and once again, YOU have exaggerated by suggesting that anyone has ever suggested that an opposition be silenced by force in any way other than joking, hyperbole or angry ranting.


Now, here, they invoke civil rights when clearly the gov't has made no attempt to halt the construction of the mosque, and community members have made no violent or illegal gestures toward the Muslim population, but it sounds better to turn this into a repeat of the indignities African-Americans and women suffered in the struggle for civil rights. Also, offering a sensible solution to avoid conflict is turned into supporting a hateful and intolerant sect of murderous gov't conspirators trying to kick the Muslims out of the country.
How is it a sensible solution to attempt to derail an attempt by Muslims to put up a place of worship in the vicinity of which they live? "Vehement community opposition" is basically Not In My Back Yard writ slightly more politely.

Be on the lookout for this practice, and when it happens, just CALL THEM ON IT! It is the most effective way to defeat this tactic that I see employed all too often. Don't let them put words in your mouth.
Lke you just did.

I call you on it.

Done.

Anything else we "should" do, sir?

Stinking gramma nazi
Guilty as charged!

DCD just won this thread.
ROFL!

And what do you think you are, a moderator!? Why don't you go start a thread if you want to play referee. Just like an intolerant liberal, dashing about taking over everything and pretending they're God :) .

ROFL!

And what do you think you are, a moderator!? Why don't you go start a thread if you want to play referee. Just like an intolerant liberal, dashing about taking over everything and pretending they're God :) .

I'm not amused.

ROFL!

And what do you think you are, a moderator!? Why don't you go start a thread if you want to play referee. Just like an intolerant liberal, dashing about taking over everything and pretending they're God :) .

Ahhh, so now it comes clear.


You do have an agenda. I call you on making such sensationalist statements.

ROFL!

And what do you think you are, a moderator!? Why don't you go start a thread if you want to play referee. Just like an intolerant liberal, dashing about taking over everything and pretending they're God :) .

DCD was winding you up by the way. Don't take his anti free speech statement too seriously.

*snip*
Lke you just did.

I call you on it.

Done.

Anything else we "should" do, sir?

Well, despite the fact that I attempted to make a thread that didn't point fingers at anyone, someone had to take offense. Now, since you chose to interpret my examples in a way they were not intended, I'd say that ends this argument. If you choose to see my post as an attempt to prove anything, then you missed the point.

Bye the way, the Muslim example was from a real topic, and someone literally did suggest arresting and imprisoning anyone who opposed the building of the mosque. So perhaps you should know what you are talking about. That "R" wasn't made up by me. I did, however, paraphrase.

Also, I have been told I shouldn't speak in these forums because someone found my opinions offensive. I have seen it happen to others. And I've been around these forums for a few years, so I might know ;) .

Now, let's try not hijacking sensible threats with bullheadedly ignorant posts that leave no room for opposition. We call that "Intolerance!"

DCD was winding you up by the way. Don't take his anti free speech statement too seriously.
I was joking back in like kind, I got the joke lol :p

EDIT: Obviously Dragon DIDN'T get the joke. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

I was joking back in like kind, I got the joke lol :p

Woops, my mistake.

Well, despite the fact that I attempted to make a thread that didn't point fingers at anyone, someone had to take offense. Now, since you chose to interpret my examples in a way they were not intended, I'd say that ends this argument. If you choose to see my post as an attempt to prove anything, then you missed the point.

Bye the way, the Muslim example was from a real topic, and someone literally did suggest arresting and imprisoning anyone who opposed the building of the mosque. So perhaps you should know what you are talking about. That "R" wasn't made up by me. I did, however, paraphrase.

Also, I have been told I shouldn't speak in these forums because someone found my opinions offensive. I have seen it happen to others. And I've been around these forums for a few years, so I might know ;) .

Now, let's try not hijacking sensible threats with bullheadedly ignorant posts that leave no room for opposition. We call that "Intolerance!"

But you yourself are makinh ignorant, bull-headed statements.

But you yourself are makinh ignorant, bull-headed statements.
Wow. I WAS JOKING BACK!
idiot...


I mean seriously, other people do it, and I specifically stated it was a JOKE!
What the fuck else do I have to do to get you to see that? They made a joke, i.e. the free speech post, so I returned a volley of solid humor, without any angst, and you STILL took issue. I will not acknowledge you again after this post if thats the best I can expect from you.


And I have not attacked anyone's beliefs, so all these people taking offense to my post and trying to show my "true purpose", which apparently was to attack liberals, are really just making obvious your own insecurities.

I love it when ignorance rears its head. Now, were ALL of those thousands of posts as singularly useless and ridiculously antagonistic as this one?
No. They were all well thought out. This was simply ridiculously antagonistic.

No. They were all well thought out. This was simply ridiculously antagonistic.
Really? How so? I'd like you to elaborate on how my original post offended you, and then how my subsequent post did the same?

Yep, heres another example.

Mr X posts 100 posts on how much he hates christianity and it's beliefs. No one cares.

Mr Y complains slightly about the Islamic teachings.

Mr X goes mad and calls Mr Y and biggoted racist, and makes it seem like Mr Y wants to kick all muslims out of his country.

Pure hyprocracy.

But this forum lives on liberal, conservative and religious hypocracys! If we didn't have them... it just would be the same

Really? How so? I'd like you to elaborate on how my original post offended you, and then how my subsequent post did the same?
I'm not offended. Sometimes, I'm sarcastic.

I'm not offended. Sometimes, I'm sarcastic.
Ah. In that case sometimes I'm wrong. Like now.

*whistles unobtrusively*

Oh look! Time for work!

Ah. In that case sometimes I'm wrong. Like now.

*whistles unobtrusively*

Oh look! Time for work!
I'm guilty of what you mention sometimes but usually it isn't without knowing something of the poster. For instance, a poster who brings up that thing about the mosque and also has three other threads referring to towelheads... sometimes you pick up on larger issues at work.

But, for the most part, you're completely in the right.

I prefer the non-sequiter approach to debate.

Heh...that's a pretty funny cartoon...