NationStates Jolt Archive

After reading some letters to the editor in the Los Angeles Times, I have a general idea of the world according to Zionists.

Israel assassinates militants and imprisons thousands of Lebanese and Palestinians: Warfare that is legitimate
BY CONTRAST
Lebanese and Palestinians capture Israeli soldiers: Kidnapping and abduction

Palestinians fire rockets into Israel: Terrorism
BY CONTRAST
Israel attacks civilian targets, kills dozens of civilians and uses collective punishment to devastate the Lebanese and Palestinians: Self-defense

According to Zionists, every nation has the right to defend itself: of course by "every nation" Zionists mean "only Israel." Certainly not North Korea, Iran, Iraq, or (heaven forbid) Lebanon and Palestine.

Can Zionists get any more bigoted?

Sigh. Where are the politically correct people when it's one of the very few times they can be really useful? :headbang:

It does smack a bit of a double standard, true..And let's not forget that the Israeli's themselves did use terrorist warfare (yes, that is a real term) when they set up their own state there, a often completely ignored fact.

Sigh. Where are the politically correct people when it's one of the very few times they can be really useful? :headbang:

i've been wondering that myself. :confused:

Sigh. Where are the politically correct people when it's one of the very few times they can be really useful? :headbang:

Ha ha. A hawk calling for PC intervention. I thought I'd never see the day.

I'm with the OP on this one.

Ha ha. A hawk calling for PC intervention. I thought I'd never see the day.

I'm with the crank OP.

great another supporter.

It does smack a bit of a double standard, true..And let's not forget that the Israeli's themselves did use terrorist warfare (yes, that is a real term) when they set up their own state there, a often completely ignored fact.

oh but no, the Zionists completely ignore that. Because they're always right, and anyone who points out Israel's terrorist history is an anti-Semite and a Nazi, right?

Ha ha. A hawk calling for PC intervention. I thought I'd never see the day.

I'm with the OP on this one.
And there you have it, folks: one of the politically correct has spoken. Strange how it's in favor of labelling Isreal "Zionist." Hmm. Thought you didn't like "labels."

Israel was founded on Jewish Zionist principles. What the hell has Eutrusca been smoking?

After reading some letters to the editor in the Los Angeles Times, I have a general idea of the world according to Zionists.

Israel assassinates militants and imprisons thousands of Lebanese and Palestinians: Warfare that is legitimate
BY CONTRAST
Lebanese and Palestinians capture Israeli soldiers: Kidnapping and abduction

Palestinians fire rockets into Israel: Terrorism
BY CONTRAST
Israel attacks civilian targets, kills dozens of civilians and uses collective punishment to devastate the Lebanese and Palestinians: Self-defense

According to Zionists, every nation has the right to defend itself: of course by "every nation" Zionists mean "only Israel." Certainly not North Korea, Iran, Iraq, or (heaven forbid) Lebanon and Palestine.

Can Zionists get any more bigoted?
If Israel decided to use collective punishment against the Lebanese there wouldn't be dozens of Lebanese dead right now (at least some of them Hezbollah members) there would be thousands of Lebanese dead.

Israel has been repayed for pulling out of Gaza by being attacked by Hamas. It's been repayed for pulling out of southern Lebanon by being attacked by Hezbollah. I personally don't know how they maintain their level of restraint. If I ran Israel Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon and Syria would be drenched with the blood of Israel's enemies today.

EDIT: I wrote Hamas instead of Hezbollah.

Israel was founded on Jewish Zionist principles. What the hell has Eutrusca been smoking?
Whatever it is, he got burned.

If Israel decided to use collective punishment against the Lebanese there wouldn't be dozens of Lebanese dead right now (at least some of them Hezbollah members) there would be thousands of Lebanese dead.

Didn't I mention that thousands of Lebanese have been imprisoned? That would be classified as collective punishment.

Israel has been repayed for pulling out of Gaza by being attacked by Hamas. It's been repayed for pulling out of southern Lebanon by being attacked by Hamas. I personally don't know how they maintain their level of restraint. If I ran Israel Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon and Syria would be drenched with the blood of Israel's enemies today.

I'm not saying that what Hamas is doing is right either. I'm just pointing out Israel's hyprocrisy.

Whatever it is, he got burned.

lol :)

And there you have it, folks: one of the politically correct has spoken. Strange how it's in favor of labelling Isreal "Zionist." Hmm. Thought you didn't like "labels."


And here I thought israel unequivocally self-identified as "zionist" and was itself the material goal of the zionist movement.

Earth to eutrusca???

Didn't I mention that thousands of Lebanese have been imprisoned? That would be classified as collective punishment.
Are they ordinary Lebanese folks or are they Hezbollah militants?

hmm israel is a tad hypocritical

oh but no, the Zionists completely ignore that. Because they're always right, and anyone who points out Israel's terrorist history is an anti-Semite and a Nazi, right?
According to them, apparently, yes..According to myself? I know I'm neither..I just feel that certain people there need to drop this "I'm holier than thou, so nyah!:p" attitude..(yes, I feel it's childish, if it isn't already obvios)

If Israel decided to use collective punishment against the Lebanese there wouldn't be dozens of Lebanese dead right now (at least some of them Hezbollah members) there would be thousands of Lebanese dead.

Israel has been repayed for pulling out of Gaza by being attacked by Hamas. It's been repayed for pulling out of southern Lebanon by being attacked by Hamas. I personally don't know how they maintain their level of restraint. If I ran Israel Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon and Syria would be drenched with the blood of Israel's enemies today.

I'm with you on that one!

Didn't I mention that thousands of Lebanese have been imprisoned? That would be classified as collective punishment.

Thousands of rapists have been imprisoned in the united states. Is that collective punishment?

No, they're fucking rapists. Just because people from Lebanon are in jail doesn't mean they didn't do something to deserve it.

Both sides are equally as bad as each other in my opinion. Trying to defend one while attacking the other is like debating the merits of dog shit vs. cat.

However, that being said, I agree with Drunk Commies in that I am surprised that Israel is showing so much restraint. But if the conflict escalates I am positive that it would be the start of another major war.

Are they ordinary Lebanese folks or are they Hezbollah militants?

both but mostly civilians

Thousands of rapists have been imprisoned in the united states. Is that collective punishment?

No, they're fucking rapists. Just because people from Lebanon are in jail doesn't mean they didn't do something to deserve it.

civilians. Lebanese civilians.

hmm israel is a tad hypocritical

exactly

both

You know you just agreed with everyone who is posting in this thread against you, right?

EDIT: Nice and quick edit there.

only a few of the prisoner;s israel has taken are hezbollah militants. the majority are lebanese civilians who israel has inprisoned just because they're arab.

EDIT: Nice and quick edit there.
thanks

I believe that Israel both has a right to exist and defend itself. Israel did/does use terrorist like tactics to defend itself, fighting fire with fire. In some ways it is working, although it may not be that legal. The best way to end the current conflict would be for the Hezballa (however its spelled) and Hamas to release the Israeli soldiers and accept the fact that the "zionists" are there to stay. Once they stop the terror tactics then surely Israel will too.

both but mostly civilians

Do you have proof from a non-biased source?

civilians. Lebanese civilians.
Terrorists are technically "civlians."

Once they stop the terror tactics then surely Israel will too.
Oh, surely. :rolleyes:

only a few of the prisoner;s israel has taken are hezbollah militants. the majority are lebanese civilians who israel has inprisoned just because they're arab.
Aaaand ... your proof???

I believe that Israel both has a right to exist and defend itself. Israel did/does use terrorist like tactics to defend itself, fighting fire with fire. In some ways it is working, although it may not be that legal. The best way to end the current conflict would be for the Hezballa (however its spelled) and Hamas to release the Israeli soldiers and accept the fact that the "zionists" are there to stay. Once they stop the terror tactics then surely Israel will too.

Let us remove from ourselves this stupid idea that whenever a civilian dies it's terrorism.

Terrorism is killing civilians indiscriminantly for the sake of killing civilians. Civilians who die because they were near a building that housed Hezbollah HQ, or an airport used to move supplies to Hezbollah, or radio stations that were used to communicate with them, or roads that they were using for transport is not terrorism.

It's the invevitable civilian casualties of war, which is not only unavoidable, but under international conventions, perfectly legal.

After reading some letters to the editor in the Los Angeles Times, I have a general idea of the world according to Zionists.

Israel assassinates militants and imprisons thousands of Lebanese and Palestinians: Warfare that is legitimate
BY CONTRAST
Lebanese and Palestinians capture Israeli soldiers: Kidnapping and abduction

Palestinians fire rockets into Israel: Terrorism
BY CONTRAST
Israel attacks civilian targets, kills dozens of civilians and uses collective punishment to devastate the Lebanese and Palestinians: Self-defense

According to Zionists, every nation has the right to defend itself: of course by "every nation" Zionists mean "only Israel." Certainly not North Korea, Iran, Iraq, or (heaven forbid) Lebanon and Palestine.

Can Zionists get any more bigoted?
Eh? Zionists? Is this supposed to be synonymous with the sovereign nation of Israel? Have there been any attacks by American terror organizations on North Korea or Iran? Have their soldiers been kidnapped?

The comparison is invalid. There is a specific UN resolution that demands that Lebanon disarm Hezbullah, and attempting to root out Hezbullah on their own is Israel's right, albeit misguided.

Sigh. Where are the politically correct people when it's one of the very few times they can be really useful?We can't be everywhere at once ;)

We can't be everywhere at once ;)
Thank God, or the universe, for small favors! :D

I believe that Israel both has a right to exist and defend itself. Israel did/does use terrorist like tactics to defend itself, fighting fire with fire. In some ways it is working, although it may not be that legal. The best way to end the current conflict would be for the Hezballa (however its spelled) and Hamas to release the Israeli soldiers and accept the fact that the "zionists" are there to stay. Once they stop the terror tactics then surely Israel will too.
I agree that Israel has a right to exist and defend itself but I do think that it sometimes use too harsh methods. It's not self defence anymore, not even close.

Of course that would be the best way but I doubt that it will ever happen. I just hope that both Palestinian and Lebanese governments grow strong enough so that they actually can do something about terrorism inside their countries. Most (not all, most) Lebanese hate Hezbollah but they are too weak to do anything about it.

edit.
too many beers. off to bar...

only a few of the prisoner;s israel has taken are hezbollah militants. the majority are lebanese civilians who israel has inprisoned just because they're arab.
Yep. It's always good for a nation's economy to spend money to keep ordinary civilians fed and clothed in prison. I have a hard time believing that Israel would waste time and money to keep ordinary civilians locked up. It just doesn't make sense.

Oh, surely. :rolleyes:

Name one time since the formation of Israel where they have attacked another nation without provocation or imminent threat.

Don't say the 6 days war unless you want to count troops massing on the border as a lack of provacation.

Aaaand ... your proof???
Oh, pshaw. Even if O-Zone provides it to you, you've already proclaimed (loudly and clearly, at every opportunity) that you don't care. About anyone's point-of-view. Other than your own, natch.

That being the case, Eut - I'd characterize your (three-word) question as flamebait. As you have no intention of considering any response O-Zone actually gives.

All of which begs the question, 'Why are you still here?', anyway? Reliving the great squabbles of yesteryear?

Let us remove from ourselves this stupid idea that whenever a civilian dies it's terrorism.

Terrorism is killing civilians indiscriminantly for the sake of killing civilians. Civilians who die because they were near a building that housed Hezbollah HQ, or an airport used to move supplies to Hezbollah, or radio stations that were used to communicate with them, or roads that they were using for transport is not terrorism.

It's the invevitable civilian casualties of war, which is not only unavoidable, but under international conventions, perfectly legal.
I know that, but what I'm talking about are the "uncomfirmed" reports of Israeli jets bombing villages in retaliation for terrorist attacks on them. I support Israel in its campaign against Hezbollah. As for civilian casualties, the Lebanese government, like all governments should not risk the lives of the innocents in there borders to protect terrorists, the Lebanese government is at fault here too.

Name one time since the formation of Israel where they have attacked another nation without provocation or imminent threat.

Don't say the 6 days war unless you want to count troops massing on the border as a lack of provacation.

Strike on the Iraqi Nuclear Reactor, and this incident most recently.

Oh, pshaw. Even if O-Zone provides it to you, you've already proclaimed (loudly and clearly, at every opportunity) that you don't care. About anyone's pint-of-view.

That being the case, Eut - I'd characterize your (three-word) question as flamebait. As you have no intention of considering any response O-Zone actually gives.

All of which begs the question, 'Why are you still here?', anyway? Reliving the great squabbles of yesteryear?
ouch, touche.

Strike on the Iraqi Nuclear Reactor, and this incident most recently.

I can probably give you the reactor but why this incident since it was a CROSS BORDER attack that killed 8 IDF soldiers and 2 taken captive. Seems like a provocative attack to me.

Palestinians fire rockets into Israel: Terrorism
BY CONTRAST
Israel attacks civilian targets, kills dozens of civilians and uses collective punishment to devastate the Lebanese and Palestinians: Self-defense


Lemme explain the difference to you.

You fire a rocket across your border into a village that has no strategic or military value and kill people - terrorism

You demolish a building that houses the headquarters of your enemy which, unfortunatly results in civilian casualties - valid wartime operation

See the difference here? If not lemme ask you a question. Which one of these is a valid military objective which by necessisity will unfortunatly result in civilian death, and which one of these is killing civilians for the sole and express purpose of killing civilians?

When you figure that out, you'll understand the difference between war, and terrorism.

Oh, pshaw. Even if O-Zone provides it to you, you've already proclaimed (loudly and clearly, at every opportunity) that you don't care. About anyone's point-of-view. Other than your own, natch.

That being the case, Eut - I'd characterize your (three-word) question as flamebait. As you have no intention of considering any response O-Zone actually gives.

All of which begs the question, 'Why are you still here?', anyway? Reliving the great squabbles of yesteryear?
Hmmm. Who's posting flamebait??? I think his initials are "Dobbsworld." :p

Oh, pshaw. Even if O-Zone provides it to you, you've already proclaimed (loudly and clearly, at every opportunity) that you don't care. About anyone's point-of-view. Other than your own, natch.

That being the case, Eut - I'd characterize your (three-word) question as flamebait. As you have no intention of considering any response O-Zone actually gives.

All of which begs the question, 'Why are you still here?', anyway? Reliving the great squabbles of yesteryear?
You're suggesting that O-Zone will have a good response handy after tossing around the term "Zionists" to the degree they did?

I know that, but what I'm talking about are the "uncomfirmed" reports of Israeli jets bombing villages in retaliation for terrorist attacks on them. I support Israel in its campaign against Hezbollah. As for civilian casualties, the Lebanese government, like all governments should not risk the lives of the innocents in there borders to protect terrorists, the Lebanese government is at fault here too.

Any time any group kills innocent civilians without any military justification, for the sole point of killing civilians, that is terrorism. And if Israel is guilty of it then they are guilty of terrorist acts.

But I haven't seen it HERE.

I can probably give you the reactor but why this incident since it was a CROSS BORDER attack that killed 8 IDF soldiers and 2 taken captive. Seems like a provocative attack to me.

I'm not defending Hezbollah, just trying to think of something where Israel attacked first.

Any time any group kills innocent civilians without any military justification, for the sole point of killing civilians, that is terrorism. And if Israel is guilty of it then they are guilty of terrorist acts.

But I haven't seen it HERE.
Neither have I. The "uncomfirmed" bombing of a village by IDF happened years before.

I'm not defending Hezbollah, just trying to think of something where Israel attacked first.

But Israel didn't attack first here, Hezbollah did, witht he death and capture of IDF soldiers, which prompted this whole thing.

I can sorta give you the reactor, although I could argue that an enemy building nuclear capabilities is pretty freaking provacative.

Although in the grand scheme of things, surgically taking out one reactor with a precision bombing run is not necessarily a "bad thing"

You're suggesting that O-Zone will have a good response handy after tossing around the term "Zionists" to the degree they did?
No, he's just part of the clique (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=491958) that's going out of its way to heckle me into getting myself perma-banned. :)

You demolish a building that houses the headquarters of your enemy which, unfortunatly results in civilian casualties - valid wartime operation


One thing that has always bothered me. They bomb a lot of buildings and in most cases only civilians die. If they are so sure about where the terrorists are, why aren't they able to kill the terrorists and their leaders? And they say "Mossad is the bestest eva"

Neither have I. The "uncomfirmed" bombing of a village by IDF happened years before.

And if I see proof of it then I will denounce it as a terrorist act. Killing innocent civilians for the sole purpose of killing innocent civilians IS terrorism.

yes, even if Israel does it.

But Israel didn't attack first here, Hezbollah did, witht he death and capture of IDF soldiers, which prompted this whole thing.

I can sorta give you the reactor, although I could argue that an enemy building nuclear capabilities is pretty freaking provacative.

Although in the grand scheme of things, surgically taking out one reactor with a precision bombing run is not necessarily a "bad thing"

I'm not going to get into arguments of what is "good" or "bad". But Israel deliberately attacked a nation that did not attack them first. Lets just leave out whether it was justified or not for right now.

And if I see proof of it then I will denounce it as a terrorist act. Killing innocent civilians for the sole purpose of killing innocent civilians IS terrorism.

yes, even if Israel does it.
That is why I post it as uncomfirmed, I've heard of it but saw no hard evidence.

One thing that has always bothered me. They bomb a lot of buildings and in most cases only civilians die. If they are so sure about where the terrorists are, why aren't they able to kill the terrorists and their leaders? And they say "Mossad is the bestest eva"

You sure about "only civilians"? Terrorists don't exactly walk around with a sign that says "Hi, I'm a terrorist!"

Besides, as pointed out, in many cases terrorists ARE civilians. THe distinction that needs pointing out is the difference between civilian terrorist and innocent civilian.

You bomb a terrorist cell you'll kill a lot of civilians. But they'll be terrorists too. When we hear "israel killed X number of civilians" keep in mind that this doesn't mean they were not, in fact, terrorists.

No, he's just part of the clique (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=491958) that's going out of its way to heckle me into getting myself perma-banned. :)

Wouldn't that be more like a cabal?

Hmmm. Who's posting flamebait??? I think his initials are "Dobbsworld." :p
I give odds that if I go look in Moderation right now, there'll be a brand-spanking new complaint thread about me visciously, and with malice of forethought, initially describing you in this as a 'hawk', which in your backwoods parlance would probably roughly translate as something as nonsensical and contrived as, 'impotent ****** bastard with a false leg what oppresses puppy-dogs and ladybugs and is thoroughly icky besides'.

I ain't gonna bother going lookin'. Man.

I'm not going to get into arguments of what is "good" or "bad". But Israel deliberately attacked a nation that did not attack them first. Lets just leave out whether it was justified or not for right now.

Well technically Israel attacked first in the 6 day war. However other nations were massing troops for an attack, Israel just did it preemptivly. That's probably the biggest example of Israel attacking FIRST.

The question is whether they've ever attacked first without just provocation. I'll be more than happy to admit Israel has attacked first on a few occassions, 6 day war being the most glaring example of that. However in the 6 day war I find it MORE than justified.

Whether the attack on the Iraqi nuclear reactor was a justified first response is...a little more gray.

I'm not defending Hezbollah, just trying to think of something where Israel attacked first.

But here, Israel was attacked first. First by Hamas in Gaza and now Hezbollah in Lebanon.

But here, Israel was attacked first. First by Hamas in Gaza and now Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Did Lebanon attack Israel? No? Ok, So Israel attacked Lebanon first.

Did Lebanon attack Israel? No? Ok, So Israel attacked Lebanon first.

Hezbollah holds 23 out of 120 seats in the Lebanese Parliament. Hezbollah is an official government party and plays a part in the politics of Lebanon.

Hezbollah is Lebanon.

Or, if you want to go the other way. Isreal isn't attacking lebanon, Israel is attacking Hezbollah.

Unfortunatly Lebanon just happens to be in the way.

By your definition Israel could NEVER attack Hezbollah without attacking Lebanon, as any attack on Hezbollah would, at minimum, require ordinance to be fired across borders.

Did Lebanon attack Israel? No? Ok, So Israel attacked Lebanon first.
Southern Lebanon was occupied by terrorists, Israel attacked the terrorists in Lebanon, so one could argue that Israel is doing Lebanon a favor.

Did Lebanon attack Israel? No? Ok, So Israel attacked Lebanon first.

You cannot be this ignorant of politics. Hezbollah is a political PARTY of Lebanon. They also occupy south Lebanon and have free reign down there.

The attacks came from LEBANON into ISRAEL. Hezbollah militants crossed the border,attacked the IDF and fled back across the border with 2 captives.

So yes...Lebanon (though not with government sanction) attacked Israel.

Did Lebanon attack Israel? No? Ok, So Israel attacked Lebanon first.

Actually, that's kind of irrelevant.

My question was not "name one time where israel has attacked first"

It was "Name one time since the formation of Israel where they have attacked another nation without provocation "

If your argument is "hezbollah attacked Israel, not Lebanon, but Israel attacked Lebanon, thus attacking first" I can SORTA see the logic of that.

However that's not what I asked. I said name once when Israel attacked without provocation.

Supporting a terrorist group, helping them defy calls to disarm, and electing them to your government, failing to do anything to halt the attacks and failing to denounce the kidnapping of these soldiers is, certainly, provocation.

Hezbollah holds 23 out of 120 seats in the Lebanese Parliament. Hezbollah is an official government party and plays a part in the politics of Lebanon.

Hezbollah is Lebanon.

Or, if you want to go the other way. Isreal isn't attacking lebanon, Israel is attacking Hezbollah.

Unfortunatly Lebanon just happens to be in the way.

By your definition Israel could NEVER attack Hezbollah without attacking Lebanon, as any attack on Hezbollah would, at minimum, require ordinance to be fired across borders.

But Israel IS attacking Lebanon. They've cratered the runways at the airport, and they're blocking the ports. IMO, Israel wants to ovethrow the current Lebanese government and establish a Christian puppet state that would act as a barrier.

I would equate this to, say, France attacking the United States because the Green Party is holding 2 French soldiers captive.

You cannot be this ignorant of politics. Hezbollah is a political PARTY of Lebanon. They also occupy south Lebanon and have free reign down there.

The attacks came from LEBANON into ISRAEL. Hezbollah militants crossed the border,attacked the IDF and fled back across the border with 2 captives.

So yes...Lebanon (though not with government sanction) attacked Israel.

Doesn't really matter since the comment still fails the test. I can give him the argument that "hezbollah doesn't speak for lebanon and thus lebanon didn't attack" I can see the logic there.

But what I said was when has israel attacked without provocation? To claim that Israel NEVEr attacked first is both ignorant and wrong, they have, the Iraqi reactor and the 6 day war come to mind.

But the question is when have they done it without sufficient provocation? ANd the Lebanese government, though they may not have technically attacked, did quite provoke this situation.

Actually, that's kind of irrelevant.

My question was not "name one time where israel has attacked first"

It was "Name one time since the formation of Israel where they have attacked another nation without provocation "

If your argument is "hezbollah attacked Israel, not Lebanon, but Israel attacked Lebanon, thus attacking first" I can SORTA see the logic of that.

However that's not what I asked. I said name once when Israel attacked without provocation.

Supporting a terrorist group, helping them defy calls to disarm, and electing them to your government, failing to do anything to halt the attacks and failing to denounce the kidnapping of these soldiers is, certainly, provocation.

I wasn't answering your question though in that post.

Hezbollah is Lebanon
Ok..Is every person in the USA a republican then? Or every Russian a communist? Or every British citizen a Labour voter?
Of course not. One should not blame everybody for the actions of certain people..I am sure that there are plenty of innocent people in Lebanon, and are suffering along with the rest, in their case (note: I am not defending hezbollah) unjustly.

I would equate this to, say, France attacking the United States because the Green Party is holding 2 French soldiers captive.

If the green party had launched missles into France, killed innocent french civilians, sent 14 year old girls to die with bombs strapped to their chests, and THEN kidnapped 2 soliders (while killing 8) and the government of the US supported all of it, and proclaimed them heroes of the American people, then your analogy would work. And then france would be certainly justified in doing so.

But they haven't, so it doesn't.

I wasn't answering your question though in that post.


erm...yeah ya were...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthais101
Name one time since the formation of Israel where they have attacked another nation without provocation or imminent threat.

Don't say the 6 days war unless you want to count troops massing on the border as a lack of provacation.


Strike on the Iraqi Nuclear Reactor, and this incident most recently.

------------------------------------

Listed this incident as an attack without provocation.

erm...yeah ya were...

Quote:



Strike on the Iraqi Nuclear Reactor, and this incident most recently.

------------------------------------

Listed this incident as an attack without provocation.

I already answered your post. I was responding to Cornilu(sp?). If you will look up I hadn't quoted you.

Ok..Is every person in the USA a republican then? Or every Russian a communist? Or every British citizen a Labour voter?
Of course not. One should not blame everybody for the actions of certain people..I am sure that there are plenty of innocent people in Lebanon, and are suffering along with the rest, in their case (note: I am not defending hezbollah) unjustly.

But the analogy doesn't work. The republican party doesn't have its own private militia running around lobbing rockets into mexico. If it did, and the government knew about it, did nothing to stop it, and in fact SUPPORTED it, then yes I WOULD hold the government responsible by proxy

Yes, innocent people are suffering, and that is TRAGIC. But...that is war.

But Israel IS attacking Lebanon. They've cratered the runways at the airport, and they're blocking the ports.

An airport where rockets that have been fired into Israel were delivered too. Ports where weapons were going through to get to the terrorists to be used against Israel. Is this starting to sink in?

IMO, Israel wants to ovethrow the current Lebanese government and establish a Christian puppet state that would act as a barrier.

*dies of laughter*

I already answered your post. I was responding to Cornilu(sp?). If you will look up I hadn't quoted you.

Actually I asked the question, when have they without provocation, which you quoted (it's on page three) and said this incident.

I argue two things:

1) Hezbollah is so linked to Lebanon that to make any attack by Hezbollah an attack by Lebanon

and

2) Even if not, the actions of the Lebanese government amount to provocation.

I see your logic so I am willing to somewhat concede point 1, but not point 2.

And there you have it, folks: one of the politically correct has spoken. Strange how it's in favor of labelling Isreal "Zionist." Hmm. Thought you didn't like "labels."
How does someone earn the politically correct moniker?

How does someone earn the politically correct moniker?
In this context? By expressing an opposing point-of-view.

If I ran Israel Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon and Syria would be drenched with the blood of Israel's enemies today.
I'm with you on that one!
I don't think that responding to all attacks emotionally is a good idea when people are going to get killed. Or very Christian, for that matter.

Oh, surely. :rolleyes:
You think Israel is on a mission to take over the middle east, or to wipe out the Arab race?

No, he's just part of the clique (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=491958) that's going out of its way to heckle me into getting myself perma-banned. :)
Come on you're an adult. You can't whine that someone "made" you say something that got you in trouble.

You think Israel is on a mission to take over the middle east, or to wipe out the Arab race?
No, I don't.

You can't whine that someone "made" you say something that got you in trouble.
Hasn't stopped him yet, FS.

*dies of laughter*Agreed, thats just fucking stupid.:p


I dont understand why people cant seem to get this. Israel is like a pitbull protecting its turf. It wont leave its turf to attack others and is totally fine, unless it feels threatend...then it will unleash hell.

It seems to be that the arabs are just too fucking dumb to understand that if they just recognize Israel and live it alone, no harm will come to them and they can just go on with their sandy lives in peace.

....Its not that fucking complicated.

I don't think that responding to all attacks emotionally is a good idea when people are going to get killed. Or very Christian, for that matter.


You think Israel is on a mission to take over the middle east, or to wipe out the Arab race?

I dont the Israelis care since they are Jewish and do not beleive in all the compassionate turn the other cheek stuff found in the New Testamet.

Yes, Dobbs thinks that if Israel isnt checked by atleast three muslim states with nuclear weapons, Israel will rampage across the middle east. He doesnt understand that if the arabs left Israel alone, there would be NO FIGHTING inthe middle east.

Agreed, thats just fucking stupid.:p


I dont understand why people cant seem to get this. Israel is like a pitbull protecting its turf. It wont leave its turf to attack others and is totally fine, unless it feels threatend...then it will unleash hell.

It seems to be that the arabs are just too fucking dumb to understand that if they just recognize Israel and live it alone, no harm will come to them and they can just go on with their sandy lives in peace.

....Its not that fucking complicated.
The problem with that is that if left alone, Israel will just continue the occupation. They need to be fought until they leave Palestine.

Yes, Dobbs thinks that if Israel isnt checked by atleast three muslim states with nuclear weapons, Israel will rampage across the middle east. He doesnt understand that if the arabs left Israel alone, there would be NO FIGHTING inthe middle east.
I didn't realize I'd appointed you my spokesman, you TROLL. Now stop putting words in my mouth and/or claiming to have a bead on my thoughts on the matter.

The problem with that is that if left alone, Israel will just continue the occupation. They need to be fought until they leave Palestine.

Please explain to me how Hezbollah, a militant LEBANESE group has anything to do with Palestine/Hamas?

Ha ha. A hawk calling for PC intervention. I thought I'd never see the day.

I'm with the OP on this one.

A Bushevik hawk fatally allergic to hippy saliva, no less.

The problem with that is that if left alone, Israel will just continue the occupation. They need to be fought until they leave Palestine.

Since when was palestine a state? It was never a state.

The problem with that is that if left alone, Israel will just continue the occupation. They need to be fought until they leave Palestine.
Meh...spoils of war. And anyway, the palestinians are too junior and dont have enough responsibility and maturity to handle a state. We saw that when they awarded Israel with terrorist attacks for withdrawing for some palestinian lands.:rolleyes:

*SNIPPED THE BITCHING*
Meh, I could do what I want, and how exactly am I a troll?

Agreed, thats just fucking stupid.:p


I dont understand why people cant seem to get this. Israel is like a pitbull protecting its turf. It wont leave its turf to attack others and is totally fine, unless it feels threatend...then it will unleash hell.

It seems to be that the arabs are just too fucking dumb to understand that if they just recognize Israel and live it alone, no harm will come to them and they can just go on with their sandy lives in peace.

....Its not that fucking complicated.

Exactly. israel wants one thing. To exist. I'm sure they'd rather exist surrounded by democratic allies, but they're content to exist around muslim theocracies provided they leave them the fuck alone.

Lebanon was to be a global test case. Israel occupied Lebanon, and Hezbollah formed as a militant opposition to that occupation, and that...somewhat valid. However, the occupation is over. Hezbollah won. But they didn't disarm, they kept launching missles into Israel.

Hezbollah proves what Israel has known the whole time. These extreemist groups may argue for sovereignty, but that is in the end just a pretext for the fact that they really just enjoy killing jews.

Meh, I could do what I want, and how exactly am I a troll?

For disagreeing with him :D

Exactly. israel wants one thing. To exist. I'm sure they'd rather exist surrounded by democratic allies, but they're content to exist around muslim theocracies provided they leave them the fuck alone.

Lebanon was to be a global test case. Israel occupied Lebanon, and Hezbollah formed as a militant opposition to that occupation, and that...somewhat valid. However, the occupation is over. Hezbollah won. But they didn't disarm, they kept launching missles into Israel.

Hezbollah proves what Israel has known the whole time. These extreemist groups may argue for sovereignty, but that is in the end just a pretext for the fact that they really just enjoy killing jews.
Or in other words, Hezbollah is a bunch of tools, and anyone who backs them up is standing for unnessesary violence and toolishness.

The problem with that is that if left alone, Israel will just continue the occupation. They need to be fought until they leave Palestine.Hypothetically speaking; if Israel abandoned the occupied territories completely & wanted to hand over control of them, who should they contact?

Continuing the hypothetical situation: what do you think the consequences would be for the now-formerly occupied territories?

For disagreeing with him :D
Yes, it seems. Or maybe hes mad because I called him and his problems deformed?

For disagreeing with him :D
For stating opinion in my name, and elaborating on his supposition. Which would be rather like me saying that, "not only are you a pedophile, Corneliu, but a pedophile who wants all children visciously sodomized for some reason or other".

See how that works, now? That's what I call trolling.

Yes, it seems. Or maybe hes mad because I called him and his problems deformed?
I'm right pissed at you - don't EVER claim to fucking know what my thoughts are and then proceed to spew whatever comes into your mind out onto the page as being the product of my considered opinion.

don't EVER claim to*...*SNIP A BUNCH OF SHIT THAT I DIDNT READ**Seriously considers this*:rolleyes: :p

For stating opinion in my name, and elaborating on his supposition. Which would be rather like me saying that, "not only are you a pedophile, Corneliu, but a pedophile who wants all children visciously sodomized for some reason or other".

See how that works, now? That's what I call trolling.

Booo!..that analogy blows. Go home.

*Seriously considers this*:rolleyes: :p
Welcome to Dobbsworld's IGNORE list, you snotty little shit.

Welcome to Dobbsworld's IGNORE list, you snotty little shit.
...*Seriously cares*:rolleyes: :p

Meh...spoils of war. And anyway, the palestinians are too junior and dont have enough responsibility and maturity to handle a state. We saw that when they awarded Israel with terrorist attacks for withdrawing for some palestinian lands.:rolleyes:

Such is the call of the Great Imperilalist. If this was the 60's you'd be hosing civil rights protestors in the South.

After reading some letters to the editor in the Los Angeles Times, I have a general idea of the world according to Zionists.

Israel assassinates militants and imprisons thousands of Lebanese and Palestinians: Warfare that is legitimate
BY CONTRAST
Lebanese and Palestinians capture Israeli soldiers: Kidnapping and abduction

Palestinians fire rockets into Israel: Terrorism
BY CONTRAST
Israel attacks civilian targets, kills dozens of civilians and uses collective punishment to devastate the Lebanese and Palestinians: Self-defense

According to Zionists, every nation has the right to defend itself: of course by "every nation" Zionists mean "only Israel." Certainly not North Korea, Iran, Iraq, or (heaven forbid) Lebanon and Palestine.

Can Zionists get any more bigoted?

I think bigoted is the wrong word hypocritical yes Bigoted no

I don't believe in the universal right of a state to defend itself, only the universal right of a democratic, rights respecting state to defend itself. In essence, I support the Lebanese right to defend themselves, I support the ROK's right to defend themselves. I do not support the right of Iran or the DPRK to defend themselves, as per the fact that they are...well...bad.

Such is the call of the Great Imperilalist. If this was the 60's you'd be hosing civil rights protestors in the South.But its not the 60's so I dont know what this has to do with anything??:confused:


By the way, way to ignore the rest of my post.;) :rolleyes:

But its not the 60's so I dont know what this has to do with anything??:confused:


By the way, way to ignore the rest of my post.;) :rolleyes:

Seeing as you need it spelt out for you....

They aren't fit to govern themselves has been the clarion call of the Imperialist for years, aimed at Africa, Arabs, Irish and anybody else who happened to get conquered. Its ignorant, stupid, semi-racist shite, used to justify every kind of brutality and exploitation.

...*Seriously cares*:rolleyes: :p
Putting " :rolleyes: :p " after every post doesn't stop it from being trolling or flamebaiting. Stop putting words in other player's mouths, The Atlantian islands. You're out of line.

Welcome to Dobbsworld's IGNORE list, you snotty little shit.
Dobbsworld, get your attitude in check. Knock off the flaming, ignore gloating, and giant red firggin' letters while you're at it.

If it continues, either or both of you will get official warnings, forumbans, or deletions, depending on the severity of the offense and your histories, which I can't be arsed to look up right now. Something tells me it's not the first time for either of you.

Putting " :rolleyes: :p " after every post doesn't stop it from being trolling or flamebaiting. Stop putting words in other player's mouths, The Atlantian islands. You're out of line.


Dobbsworld, get your attitude in check. Knock off the flaming, ignore gloating, and giant red firggin' letters while you're at it.

If it continues, either or both of you will get official warnings, forumbans, or deletions, depending on the severity of the offense and your histories, which I can't be arsed to look up right now. Something tells me it's not the first time for either of you.
Meh..I've only been yelled at by Mod once before, in which I got a few day ban for calling Tactical Grace an ass, but aside from that I'm clean. And I only put the two faces after two posts, both were in reply to Dobbs acting a fool. Anyway, the one who was flamming me did the privalige of putting me on his ignore list, so I wont have to see his posts anymore.

So basically, its all good.:p

Seeing as you need it spelt out for you....

They aren't fit to govern themselves has been the clarion call of the Imperialist for years, aimed at Africa, Arabs, Irish and anybody else who happened to get conquered. Its ignorant, stupid, semi-racist shite, used to justify every kind of brutality and exploitation.
Yet it was proven in this case when the Israels, trying to establish an uneasy peace, gave up some land to the Palestinians and were rewarded with a fresh wave of terrorist attacks, screams for the arabs of "We are winning! The Israelis are weakening!", and still no recognition of Israel as a legit state.

If it walks like a savage, talks like a savage, behaves like a savage, bombs like a savage, and governs like a savage.....(want to fill in the rest?)

Yet it was proven in this case when the Israels, trying to establish an uneasy peace, gave up some land to the Palestinians and were rewarded with a fresh wave of terrorist attacks, screams for the arabs of "We are winning! The Israelis are weakening!", and still no recognition of Israel as a legit state.

If it walks like a savage, talks like a savage, behaves like a savage, bombs like a savage, and governs like a savage.....(want to fill in the rest?)

Well, at least this confirms my suspcions of your true problem with Arabs, and indeed those of any 'colour'.

Well, at least this confirms my suspcions of your true problem with Arabs, and indeed those of any 'colour'.
Actually this has nothing to do with anybody except the arabs. I dont know what your talking about when you said "and indeed those of any color"...I didnt say anything about anyone else except arabs.

And yet you still ignore the point of my post about what the arabs did in exchange for Israel giving up its land.

Putting " :rolleyes: :p " after every post doesn't stop it from being trolling or flamebaiting. Stop putting words in other player's mouths, The Atlantian islands. You're out of line.


Dobbsworld, get your attitude in check. Knock off the flaming, ignore gloating, and giant red firggin' letters while you're at it.

If it continues, either or both of you will get official warnings, forumbans, or deletions, depending on the severity of the offense and your histories, which I can't be arsed to look up right now. Something tells me it's not the first time for either of you.

I can honestly say its not the first time for Dobbsworld.

After reading some letters to the editor in the Los Angeles Times, I have a general idea of the world according to Zionists.

Israel assassinates militants and imprisons thousands of Lebanese and Palestinians: Warfare that is legitimate
BY CONTRAST
Lebanese and Palestinians capture Israeli soldiers: Kidnapping and abduction

Palestinians fire rockets into Israel: Terrorism
BY CONTRAST
Israel attacks civilian targets, kills dozens of civilians and uses collective punishment to devastate the Lebanese and Palestinians: Self-defense

According to Zionists, every nation has the right to defend itself: of course by "every nation" Zionists mean "only Israel." Certainly not North Korea, Iran, Iraq, or (heaven forbid) Lebanon and Palestine.

Can Zionists get any more bigoted?

So... they assassinate militants? Is there some problem with that? And you know, Israel doesn't hold the Lebanese and Palestinians hostage to demand that Lebanon and Palestine do such-and-such. And airports and military bases are like hell civilian targets. I guess you were against bombing Germany and Japan in World War 2 then.

What always amazes me is when a people who were abused gain power they become abusers. This was true of the American Puritans, and is also true of the Zionists. Only two examples of many.

The question then becomes, what happens when the Palistinians gain power. The cycle of abuse just keeps going.

What always amazes me is when a people who were abused gain power they become abusers. This was true of the American Puritans, and is also true of the Zionists. Only two examples of many.

The question then becomes, what happens when the Palistinians gain power. The cycle of abuse just keeps going.

It's a blend of family abuse pattern and power trip. The Israelis consist of Jews persecuted for centuries, then once they get their own nation some of them start feeling this power trip from pushing about the Palestinians that even they admit are just hapless pawns of their Arab neighbors.

Israel has failed to learn its own history lessons and ended up a good deal Kahanist than they want to admit, which is ironic considering Kahanists are banned there.

If the Palestinians don't push someone around if they ever gain power to become self-sufficient, then it'll be a sign that humanity isn't too wretched beyond redemption.

Yes, it seems. Or maybe hes mad because I called him and his problems deformed?
Do not dance attendance on that Canadian moron. You're giving him more merit than his supercilious little outburst is worth.

On topic, whilst I am against violence against civilians I am more than behind Israel on this one. Time to shake up that cesspool known as the Middle East. ^^

Welcome to Dobbsworld's IGNORE list, you snotty little shit.
How old are you? Five? Way to bring the level of the debate down. Now I remember why I've been avoiding this place lately.

If the Israelis actually did the equivalent of what the terrorists do, they would be bombing civilian population-centers in order to purposefully kill as many innocent civilians as they could....But no, they are bombing infrastructure and terrorist-related targets...Civilians die, it's the nature of warfare that makes it so grim. That's what happens when you have Islamofascist terror-nazis hiding amongst the populace to use them as meat-shields (as well as a handy source of anti-Israeli propoganda).

It's a blend of family abuse pattern and power trip. The Israelis consist of Jews persecuted for centuries, then once they get their own nation some of them start feeling this power trip from pushing about the Palestinians that even they admit are just hapless pawns of their Arab neighbors.

Israel has failed to learn its own history lessons and ended up a good deal Kahanist than they want to admit, which is ironic considering Kahanists are banned there.

If the Palestinians don't push someone around if they ever gain power to become self-sufficient, then it'll be a sign that humanity isn't too wretched beyond redemption.

Israel was an independant state long long ago and the Jews didn't persecute anyone while we were in charge. Jews only want to live in peace amongst everyone, doing good deeds is the most important thing in the Jewish religion. Stop firing rockets, stop the suicide bombings, and recognize Israel and ISraels right to exist and I guarantee an end to violence.

And as long as the Palestinians and much of the Arab world continue to refuse the legitimacy of Israel and Israels right to exist, and continue to try and find a way to eliminate it from the map, they are only bringing up the seemingly obvious possibility that Kahane was right.

Israel was an independant state long long ago and the Jews didn't persecute anyone while we were in charge. Jews only want to live in peace amongst everyone, doing good deeds is the most important thing in the Jewish religion. Stop firing rockets, stop the suicide bombings, and recognize Israel and ISraels right to exist and I guarantee an end to violence.

And as long as the Palestinians and much of the Arab world continue to refuse the legitimacy of Israel and Israels right to exist, and continue to try and find a way to eliminate it from the map, they are only bringing up the seemingly obvious possibility that Kahane was right.

Problem is, if Israel decides Kahane was right all along, they'll likely implement the solutions that Kahane advocated: Occupy as much of the Middle East they can, annex it all into a Greater Israel, and fuck all the Gentiles- especially those dirty sand niggers.

If it walks like a savage, talks like a savage, behaves like a savage, bombs like a savage, and governs like a savage.....(want to fill in the rest?)

If it posts like an ignorant racist fool, speaks like an ignorant racist fool, behaves like an ignorant racist fool..... (want to fill in the rest?)

want to fill in the rest?Not I. I'd just get Deat'ed :(

Problem is, if Israel decides Kahane was right all along, they'll likely implement the solutions that Kahane advocated: Occupy as much of the Middle East they can, annex it all into a Greater Israel, and fuck all the Gentiles- especially those dirty sand niggers.


No, Kahane believed that the Arabs do not want peace, and never will truly want peace. He believed the only way to achieve a true peace with the Palestinians would be to relocate the Palestinians away from the borders of Israel, not take over as much of the Middle East as possible. He wanted to have all the Palestinians absorbed into the other Arab nations.

One thing that has always bothered me. They bomb a lot of buildings and in most cases only civilians die. If they are so sure about where the terrorists are, why aren't they able to kill the terrorists and their leaders? And they say "Mossad is the bestest eva"
Because they live/hide among civilians.

Trying to get terrorists is a bit like trying to shoot a calf in teh middle of a herd of full grown cows. With a mortar.

No, Kahane believed that the Arabs do not want peace, and never will truly want peace. He believed the only way to achieve a true peace with the Palestinians would be to relocate the Palestinians away from the borders of Israel, not take over as much of the Middle East as possible. He wanted to have all the Palestinians absorbed into the other Arab nations.

Wikipedia: Kahanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism)

You're trying to water down Kahane's viewpoints now?

Wikipedia: Kahanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism)

You're trying to water down Kahane's viewpoints now?

No, I was simply stating his beliefs on the Palestinian issue. He wants them out. His famous quote was "They Must Go." I wasn't wrong there was I?

Israel was an independant state long long ago and the Jews didn't persecute anyone while we were in charge. Jews only want to live in peace amongst everyone, doing good deeds is the most important thing in the Jewish religion. Stop firing rockets, stop the suicide bombings, and recognize Israel and ISraels right to exist and I guarantee an end to violence.

And as long as the Palestinians and much of the Arab world continue to refuse the legitimacy of Israel and Israels right to exist, and continue to try and find a way to eliminate it from the map, they are only bringing up the seemingly obvious possibility that Kahane was right.
Long, Long ago the Jews invented (or God invented and told the Jews) and committed genocide. Read the Torah (Old Testament). On nearly every occasion they had they killed everyone. Quite a bit of the time they even killed the animals for good measure. Just a prime example of an abused people gaining power and doing even worse than those abused them.


Good deeds? Then why in 50 years have they not helped build the economy of the Palistinians and encouraged the rich countries to take half the money given to the Israel military and build water, sewer, schools, electrical, a port, give loans for business development, etc. Rather than putting them in a suberviant position that would only encourage hate. As slaves (economic if not actual) hate their masters. If anyone in the world should understand the feeling of being subserviant it should be the Jews who have not forgotten slavery in 4000 years.

Stop fighting for your home? Something the Jews didn't do for 2000 years. Stop fighting and what then? Continue to be economic slaves forever? The world only remembers the starving when they are fighting. The starving in Africa get no attention. The Palistinians will not suffer that fate.

If it posts like an ignorant racist fool, speaks like an ignorant racist fool, behaves like an ignorant racist fool..... (want to fill in the rest?)
Oh that was good...way to copy exactly what I said....except that you made no claims to back it up, while I did.:rolleyes:

Oh that was good...way to copy exactly what I said....except that you made no claims to back it up, while I did.:rolleyes:
Thank you.

A brief glance at your posts would back up what I was alluding to. But whatever.

No, I was simply stating his beliefs on the Palestinian issue. He wants them out. His famous quote was "They Must Go." I wasn't wrong there was I?

Actually you were trying to indirectly refute my point that Kahanist ideals involve annexing more territory into Israel and expelling or subclassing Gentiles and the Wikipedia entry confirms that:

Problem is, if Israel decides Kahane was right all along, they'll likely implement the solutions that Kahane advocated: Occupy as much of the Middle East they can, annex it all into a Greater Israel, and fuck all the Gentiles- especially those dirty sand niggers.No, Kahane believed that the Arabs do not want peace, and never will truly want peace. He believed the only way to achieve a true peace with the Palestinians would be to relocate the Palestinians away from the borders of Israel, not take over as much of the Middle East as possible. He wanted to have all the Palestinians absorbed into the other Arab nations.

Kahanism is a term used in Israeli political parlance to refer, first of all, to the ideology of Rabbi Meir Kahane, and, more generally, to other right-wing Religious Zionist movements or groups that share a belief in the fundamental tenets of that ideology, chief among them being the idea that the State of Israel should be governed theocratically, should accord full citizenship exclusively to Jews, and that all non-Jews should be either deported - forcibly, if necessary - or allowed to remain as resident aliens with wide-ranging restrictions on their rights and freedoms.

Don't try to move the goalpost when facts prove a point you don't like.

A problem for the arabs is that a lot of anti-semitic propaganda has worked itself into the mainstream media (the Zion protocols for example), and that the extreme factions have become very good at making themselves indistinguishable from the moderate factions who support a two-state solution and letting the jews live in peace.

No, Kahane believed that the Arabs do not want peace, and never will truly want peace. He believed the only way to achieve a true peace with the Palestinians would be to relocate the Palestinians away from the borders of Israel, not take over as much of the Middle East as possible. He wanted to have all the Palestinians absorbed into the other Arab nations.
And which Arab nation has usable land that is not being used? In fact what nation in the world has usable land that is not being used. Palistine didn't even have usable land that wasn't being used. That's what started the whole problem. The only nations that can absorb populations are industrial that can produce large income in small space. Since the US is doing it's part taking the overflow from Latin America, maybe the solution is sending either the Palistinians or the Jews (take your pick) back to Europe. Europe caused the problem maybe they should absorb the results.

Eh? Zionists? Is this supposed to be synonymous with the sovereign nation of Israel? Have there been any attacks by American terror organizations on North Korea or Iran? Have their soldiers been kidnapped?

The comparison is invalid. There is a specific UN resolution that demands that Lebanon disarm Hezbullah, and attempting to root out Hezbullah on their own is Israel's right, albeit misguided.


I really advise anyone in favour of Israel not to use UN resolutions in their arguments. Given Israel's constant disregard for the UN, that's completely ridiculous.

And which Arab nation has usable land that is not being used? In fact what nation in the world has usable land that is not being used. Palistine didn't even have usable land that wasn't being used. That's what started the whole problem. The only nations that can absorb populations are industrial that can produce large income in small space. Since the US is doing it's part taking the overflow from Latin America, maybe the solution is sending either the Palistinians or the Jews (take your pick) back to Europe. Europe caused the problem maybe they should absorb the results.
The Palestinians have never been in Europe. And Europeans don't want the Jews back. Just cut out the Wailing Wall and send it to central Antarctica and let the Jews follow.

Long, Long ago the Jews invented (or God invented and told the Jews) and committed genocide. Read the Torah (Old Testament). On nearly every occasion they had they killed everyone. Quite a bit of the time they even killed the animals for good measure. Just a prime example of an abused people gaining power and doing even worse than those abused them.


Good deeds? Then why in 50 years have they not helped build the economy of the Palistinians and encouraged the rich countries to take half the money given to the Israel military and build water, sewer, schools, electrical, a port, give loans for business development, etc. Rather than putting them in a suberviant position that would only encourage hate. As slaves (economic if not actual) hate their masters. If anyone in the world should understand the feeling of being subserviant it should be the Jews who have not forgotten slavery in 4000 years.

Stop fighting for your home? Something the Jews didn't do for 2000 years. Stop fighting and what then? Continue to be economic slaves forever? The world only remembers the starving when they are fighting. The starving in Africa get no attention. The Palistinians will not suffer that fate.


Why have the Arabs not helped build the economy , build water , sewer , schools , electrical and port facilities and give loans for business developement ? And why have they not made peace with with Israel and stopped supporting terrorist with the same money they could be using to improve things for the palestinians and give Israel a reason NOT to have to spend so much on defense ? economic slaves my ass.

They are the tools and the puppets for the Arabs who have no wish for the Palestinians except to keep them as slaves to their politics . And to use as tools as they see fit.

Long, Long ago the Jews invented (or God invented and told the Jews) and committed genocide. Read the Torah (Old Testament). On nearly every occasion they had they killed everyone. Quite a bit of the time they even killed the animals for good measure. Just a prime example of an abused people gaining power and doing even worse than those abused them.


Good deeds? Then why in 50 years have they not helped build the economy of the Palistinians and encouraged the rich countries to take half the money given to the Israel military and build water, sewer, schools, electrical, a port, give loans for business development, etc. Rather than putting them in a suberviant position that would only encourage hate. As slaves (economic if not actual) hate their masters. If anyone in the world should understand the feeling of being subserviant it should be the Jews who have not forgotten slavery in 4000 years.

Stop fighting for your home? Something the Jews didn't do for 2000 years. Stop fighting and what then? Continue to be economic slaves forever? The world only remembers the starving when they are fighting. The starving in Africa get no attention. The Palistinians will not suffer that fate.

I read the Torah quite often thank you. The Israelites wiped out their enemies completely so as to not be influenced by the pagan idol worshippers, human sacrificer, etc. G-d told them to do this and considering he had just brougt them out of Egypt and performed numerous miracles in front of their eyes, I would say it was in their best interest to listen to him.

Why should Israel be responsible for the Palestinians? Why not their Arab brothers? Why is Israel obligated to do anything for the Palestinians, who clearly do not want peace or Israel to even exist. Israel even gives tax revenues to the Palis...or did....before hamas came to power.

You say that the Palestinians are so oppressed by the Jews, look at their treatment under Arab governments. The Arabs are the ones who put them in refugee camps to begin with. And finally...

WHY WAS THERE NO CALL FOR A PALESTINIAN STATE WHEN JORDAN ANNEXED THE WEST BANK AND EGYPT ANNEXED THE GAZA STRIP FOLLOWING THE 1948 WAR OF INDEPENDANCE??? WHY ONLY AFTER 1967???

If anyone can answer the above question I would be amazed.

WHY WAS THERE NO CALL FOR A PALESTINIAN STATE WHEN JORDAN ANNEXED THE WEST BANK AND EGYPT ANNEXED THE GAZA STRIP FOLLOWING THE 1948 WAR OF INDEPENDANCE??? WHY ONLY AFTER 1967???

If anyone can answer the above question I would be amazed.

Hmm, because before that they believed they could get rid of Israel completely, and there wouldn't be any need for a two-state solution?

I really advise anyone in favour of Israel not to use UN resolutions in their arguments. Given Israel's constant disregard for the UN, that's completely ridiculous.

Just like the rest of the Middle East who ignore countless resolutions.

Just like the rest of the Middle East who ignore countless resolutions.

How many of those have a guaranteed veto in their pocket like Israel does?

Didn't I mention that thousands of Lebanese have been imprisoned? That would be classified as collective punishment.

But of course, when Israel targets individual terrorist leaders, like those operating in the militant wings of Hamas and Hezbollah you condemn that too.

How many of those have a guaranteed veto in their pocket like Israel does?
How many of those deal with an international community either so addicted to oil or so irrational that even the most basic of Israeli self-defense tactics are condemned? Let's not forget the "Zionism is Racism" resolution passed by the GA.

Hmm, because before that they believed they could get rid of Israel completely, and there wouldn't be any need for a two-state solution?
And thats ok?

How many of those have a guaranteed veto in their pocket like Israel does?

In the case of Iraq....two.

Why have the Arabs not helped build the economy , build water , sewer , schools , electrical and port facilities and give loans for business developement ? And why have they not made peace with with Israel and stopped supporting terrorist with the same money they could be using to improve things for the palestinians and give Israel a reason NOT to have to spend so much on defense ? economic slaves my ass.

They are the tools and the puppets for the Arabs who have no wish for the Palestinians except to keep them as slaves to their politics . And to use as tools as they see fit.
I would like to see all of the rich nations make an effort to help all of the poor people of the world but those that do the crime should take more responsibility. In this case the Europeans wanted to get rid of the Jews. They didn't like the way Hitler was trying to do it so they simply exported the problem to a weak and innocent people to deal with. Then they and the Americans armed Israel to the teeth and limited arms to the Arabs. In the last 500 years nearly every war in the Mid-East region can be traced back to Europe.

Sure there's politics involved. Everyone involved needs enemies to keep their people united. Without enemies all the interest of all of the people of the region would be deverted to other problems. Without war the interest of the world in helping Israel would wain and they would find without outside money their economy would falter. Without war citizens of the Arab countries would wonder why their leaders needed "war powers". So there really isn't any interest by anyone involved in truely finding peace. That's why reasonable solutions are rejected. If the leaders wanted peace the solutions wouldn't be that hard. Of course that's true with nearly every war.

WHY WAS THERE NO CALL FOR A PALESTINIAN STATE WHEN JORDAN ANNEXED THE WEST BANK AND EGYPT ANNEXED THE GAZA STRIP FOLLOWING THE 1948 WAR OF INDEPENDANCE??? WHY ONLY AFTER 1967???

If anyone can answer the above question I would be amazed.
Originally Posted by Erketrum
Hmm, because before that they believed they could get rid of Israel completely, and there wouldn't be any need for a two-state solution?
And thats ok?
Nope.
Just trying to answer the question. ;)

Nope.
Just trying to answer the question. ;)
Hmm, ok. I think the point he was trying to make is that the arab states couldnt even give a shit about the Palestinians...hell, Jordan kicked them out of the country after they tried to kill the King. They just say they like the Palestinians to be part of the "cool arab pro palestine anti Israel" club.

Its really pathetic.

WHY WAS THERE NO CALL FOR A PALESTINIAN STATE WHEN JORDAN ANNEXED THE WEST BANK AND EGYPT ANNEXED THE GAZA STRIP FOLLOWING THE 1948 WAR OF INDEPENDANCE??? WHY ONLY AFTER 1967???

If anyone can answer the above question I would be amazed.
Because there was no land available for a second state. Gaza was part of Egypt. Until they abandon it through treaty with Israel. They abondon it because the cost of the refugees was too great for their economy to handle. If the refugees could be removed they would take it back. The west bank was part of Jordan until they were pushed off of it by war and it became the place of the refugees. Jordon would take it back if the refugees could be removed but they would be too much of a burden for their economy to handle. Now there is land available but no one wants to put money into making it livable. It's so much more fun to put money into things that go BOOM. How many "Conservative Christians?" would vote to increase war but wouldn't vote to show love to their fellow humans?

This is much like the Europeans colonizing the Americas. Because the natives were considered savages. And since savages have no rights they were pushed and they fought with what they had---stone age tools. They didn't abandon the land they did what they could to resist. They were also the pawns of the greater powers. Remember the "French and Indian" war? Eventually disease and genocide broke them.

Our problelm is, unless the bird flu elliminates a lot of people. the Palistinians won't succome to disease. That leaves genocide which has been made a negative by the Jews (aided by the Germans) themselves.

So we meet impass not because there is no solution but because all of the leaders involved get more power from hate than from compassion.

Why should Israel be responsible for the Palestinians?
That's like saying why should the US be responsible for the Native Americans. We pushed them off fair and square we owe them nothing. If they would just vanish it would open a lot of land for settlement in Oklahoma and the Dakotas.

Because there was no land available for a second state. Gaza was part of Egypt. Until they abandon it through treaty with Israel. They abondon it because the cost of the refugees was too great for their economy to handle. If the refugees could be removed they would take it back. The west bank was part of Jordan until they were pushed off of it by war and it became the place of the refugees. Jordon would take it back if the refugees could be removed but they would be too much of a burden for their economy to handle. Now there is land available but no one wants to put money into making it livable. It's so much more fun to put money into things that go BOOM. How many "Conservative Christians?" would vote to increase war but wouldn't vote to show love to their fellow humans?

This is much like the Europeans colonizing the Americas. Because the natives were considered savages. And since savages have no rights they were pushed and they fought with what they had---stone age tools. They didn't abandon the land they did what they could to resist. They were also the pawns of the greater powers. Remember the "French and Indian" war? Eventually disease and genocide broke them.

Our problelm is, unless the bird flu elliminates a lot of people. the Palistinians won't succome to disease. That leaves genocide which has been made a negative by the Jews (aided by the Germans) themselves.

So we meet impass not because there is no solution but because all of the leaders involved get more power from hate than from compassion.


Obviously, genocide doesn't bother you and you're pissed the Jews made the world try to bring an end to it...which it didn't...cough Rwanda, cough amongst others. But seriously..your view of the conflict is something i've never seen before...really delusional.

Why do I keep seeing the misconception that killing innocents equates to terrorism? Even on purpose?

The word is right in your face, and you ignore it. Terror. Killing civilians has nothing to do with terrorism, unless the motive is to kill them to scare other civilians into doing the terrorists bidding.

Is hezbollah terrorist? By its recent actions, hard to say. Attacking israeli troops isn't terrorism, its guerilla combat. Launching rockets? Closer, but is the motive to scare the israeli's? Scare them into what? What could hezbollah possibly hope to achieve by terrorizing the israeli's? Do they have some stated purposes I could see(as I can't figure it out myself, honestly).

Now what about Israel? Bombing power stations, bridges, and roads is, imo at least, inhumane, brash, and certainly not a real strategic target(if bombing power generators is a strategic objective, what exactly isn't a strategic objective? The terrorists could be using anything in lebanon! Better bomb hospitals, the terrorists might be getting treated there. Grocery stores? The terrorists might be buying food!). However, its not terrorist in and of itself.

However, I think israel's tactics and general idea of portraying itself is terrorist. Massive reprisals seem to be terrorist, trying to scare countries into thinking that if they do anything, or their citizens thereof do, they will have their entire country devastated, economically and otherwise. They don't plan to use nukes, they have them to scare countries into not attacking them.


Finally, when israel completely disregards diplomacy, it cannot maintain that it is the moral superior. It never tried to work with lebanon; they demanded the impossible out of lebanon, obviously it didn't happen, and so they invade(it was an invasion, whether or not it was an unprecedented one is the actual question). They never offered to work with the lebanese. Never asked lebanon if it could go in to try and save their guys.

If lebanon had said no, and refused to co-operate, then israel would have been able to say they had no other choice at least. However, when they don't even try, they are no better than their adversaries. They cannot claim the "right" side, when they don't even try to diffuse things diplomatically.

Obviously, genocide doesn't bother you and you're pissed the Jews made the world try to bring an end to it...which it didn't...cough Rwanda, cough amongst others. But seriously..your view of the conflict is something i've never seen before...really delusional.
When did I say genocide didn't bother me? I'm the one that has been proposing building the economy of the entire region not just one peoples while watching another peoples starve--then wondering why they fight. I just compared the situation that Europe set up in the Mid-east to the situation Europe set up in the Americas. Europe found the solution in the Americas to be genocide. I said that is not a viable option this time so a different solution must be used if there is to be peace. The solution is obvious and has been proposed by a lot smarter people than me. In fact I got the idea of building the economy of the Palistinians from "The New Middle East" by Shimon Peres--I'm sure you have heard of him someplace. He proposed taking half of the money the west was spending on arms in the Mid-East (pre Afganistan and Iraq) and build the infrastructure of Gaza. Then if the experiment worked, expand it to the west bank. (The ideal time to start the construction job would have been the day Israel pulled out of Gaza. Instead we saw funds and jobs cut to the people of Palistine thereby causing more misery. Misery was to equal peace??) He also proposed building a high speed rail road from Morocco to India and Europe to Mecca. Cutting a ditch from the Red Sea to the Dead Sea and using the drop to generate electricity. Then using the electricity to desalinate water. Then useing the water to irrigate both Israel and Jordon. Just a sampling of his ideas.

But the whole thing hinges on the leadership actually wanting peace, which I doubt due to the problems in uniting the people and receiving funds from other nations should peace actually break out. It also hinges on the leaders of the rich nations to ask their people to give out of love rather than out of hate. That is a very difficult sell. Especially to the neo-pharrisee "Conservative Christians?".

60 years after.....It's like "Ground Hog Day" We do the exact same things over and over and expect a different result. He who doesn't learn from history is condemned to repeat it, and repeat it and repeat it. And people die and people die and people die.......genocide by a thousand bombs, rocks, wars................