NationStates Jolt Archive

As you would know, Israel has been attacking lebanon. This is as a result of Hezbollah attacks.
I know that Hezbollah is fighting the Israelis, but does anyone know if Lebanon will mobilise its actual army?

Even if they wanted to, they couldn't. Lebanon is still reeling from the withdrawal of the Syrian puppet government and the difficulties of rebuilding itself from 20-odd years of civil war and occupations so it's not likely that it will be able to use any forces it does have. Even if they did, it would be a slaughter to fight against a force as well-equipped and trained as the IDF; the same is true of Syria or any of the Arab states' militaries for that matter.

Lebanon will probably try to get a ceasefire while European diplomats work behind the scenes to release the hostages. I don't think it will explode in to full-scale hostilities on any side, especially considering the significant US military presence in the region.

If it does mobilize, and attack the Israelis, Syria will undoubtedly come to the aid of the Lebanese. Lo and behold, we have another Arab-Israeli War. One with nukes. Lovely.

What army? I seriosly doubt that Lebanon has anything even remotely resembling a real army after 20 odd years of internal strife. No, the question is more like "Will Syria use it's army?"

I read there was some anti-aircraft fire from the ground against Israeli jets earlier on today. Is that likely from Lebanese forces, or hezbollah?

If it does mobilize, and attack the Israelis, Syria will undoubtedly come to the aid of the Lebanese. Lo and behold, we have another Arab-Israeli War. One with nukes. Lovely.

Israel had nukes during the Six Day War and didn't use them; I don't think any of the states in the region would be dumb enough to even consider the option of using nukes to resolve a crisis that is nowhere near the severity of the crises in the 1960's or 1980's.

I read there was some anti-aircraft fire from the ground against Israeli jets earlier on today. Is that likely from Lebanese forces, or hezbollah?
Sometimes you get the feeling that Israel would call a guy with a AK shooting at their aircraft a "aa gun"..

Sometimes you get the feeling that Israel would call a guy with a AK shooting at their aircraft a "aa gun"..

lol, True

I read there was some anti-aircraft fire from the ground against Israeli jets earlier on today. Is that likely from Lebanese forces, or hezbollah?

Probably Hezballah. The new Lebanese government has ties to the US and other Western nations so it's likely that we've told them to stand down and wait until something can be worked out. Unfortunately, the situation is pretty much a proxy war between Israel and Syria on Lebanese soil.

I highly doubt syria will get involved. The only way Syria will get involved is if Israel hits syrian targets directly. Even then, I get the feeling they might hesitate, unless Iran vows to assist them.

No. Lebanon has said multiple times that it is innocent in this, that Israel's beef is with Hezbollah, not the people of Lebanon. So they'll keep riding that line, because mobilising the little bit of military they have would be a pointless exercise.

lol, True
And a guy with a rpg doing the same (good luck hitting anythign thats moving faster than 70kmh with that, ditto with the ak, it's a great assault rifle, but as a aa gun it sucks) a "sam site"..Israel's overreacting, yet again..

Israel has directly hit a number of Lebanese military bases, as well as airbases. I dont see how the Lebanese army won't be angry.

^Not to mention the country's one, and only, international airport..Collateral damage, anyone?

I highly doubt syria will get involved. The only way Syria will get involved is if Israel hits syrian targets directly. Even then, I get the feeling they might hesitate, unless Iran vows to assist them.

They won't get involved directly. The governments of Syria and Iran use these terror groups to fight Israel indirectly, sparing them the ramifications and costs of a conventional war in favor of a guerilla war in which their ties to the organizations are kept quiet. It's sort of like the wars in Angola; the Soviets funded the MPLA as a proxy against the US who in turn funded UNITA to fight as their proxy against the Soviets. Neither side fights directly but through various factions.

Israel had nukes during the Six Day War and didn't use them; I don't think any of the states in the region would be dumb enough to even consider the option of using nukes to resolve a crisis that is nowhere near the severity of the crises in the 1960's or 1980's.

If Syria gets involved, its possible that Iran might become involved, directly or indirectly. If any news of Iranian involvement got out, Israel might get jumpy.

The enemies of Israel are all coward nations who fight with dollars and suicicdal soldiers. In a stand up fight there is no Middle Eastern nation nor alliance that can beat them.

They fight with their backs to the sea, only have to lose a single battle to lose the war and it's never happened. For the simple reason that they are more intelligent, better disciplined and have a superior sense of history.

Their enemies spend so much time making up propaganda and forcing the Palestinians into Israel's backyard that they have forgotten why they are afraid to have a conventional struggle with the Hebrews.

If Syria gets involved, its possible that Iran might become involved, directly or indirectly. If any news of Iranian involvement got out, Israel might get jumpy.

Iran's got a few problems of its own both internally and externally. Externally, there's the presence of US troops in Iraq, our fleet in the Gulf and the Straits of Hormuz, and the IDF itself, which has proven capable to strike at enemies very effectively in fairly short order. Also, many of the Gulf states are afraid of Iran's military capabilities; they'd prefer there not to be a war regardless of the US presence.

Internally, Iran is facing severe economic problems and is tied up in negotiations regarding some major oil and gas deals with China, India, and Pakistan. In the event of a war, they would see these plans delayed and possibly canceled entirely especially if Iran suffers severe damage to its oil infrastructure. China's got other sources of oil and is dependent on US trade for economic growth, so it wouldn't side with Iran and would avoid the complications of siding with the US as well.

Simply put, it would cost Iran too much to make going to war with Israel a feasible idea. They may have a nut for a president, but the clerical oligarchs still have pretty level heads when it comes to actual policy instead of rhetoric.

The enemies of Israel are all coward nations who fight with dollars and suicicdal soldiers. In a stand up fight there is no Middle Eastern nation nor alliance that can beat them.

They fight with their backs to the sea, only have to lose a single battle to lose the war and it's never happened. For the simple reason that they are more intelligent, better disciplined and have a superior sense of history.

Their enemies spend so much time making up propaganda and forcing the Palestinians into Israel's backyard that they have forgotten why they are afraid to have a conventional struggle with the Hebrews.

Fighting with what you have to fight with against an enemy that has been given the best weapons the world has to offer and not giving up in 60 years makes you a coward???? Sense of history??? Remembering occupation by European forces and remembering that land was given to Europeans because of what Germany did--NOT what they did, Who here is forgetting history?? Intelligent--The people that saved the entirety of Western Culture while Europe went through the dark ages???? Forcing Palistinians into "Israel's" back yard??? Wasn't it Israel that set up shop in Palistinian homes??

I would say using bombs from the air against the defenseless is more cowardace than fighting knowing you are totally outgunned. By your definition David was a coward when he went against Goliath.

Demanding the return of land you abandon for 2000 years is justified by history? Then all of the native Americans have a claim on the entire new world, after all it's only been 500 years, much less for most tribes.

What this comes down to is the Western Powers created a total mess. Now we have to live with the decisions of our grandfathers. The fact is Israel exists and the fact is it exists on land that belonged to another people. The American Indians fought with stone age weapons for hundreds of years. Why would we expect less in the Mid-East where culturally land is not sold? (Read your Bible or Torah the land even when sold was returned in the Jubalee) And just like the American Indians, the Palistinians were pushed into the worst and expected to starve. So there is a "Fourth World" people living next to a "First World" culture. You expect them to be satisfied??

The best solution I've seen was a "Christian" solution offered by a Jewish leader. Shimon Peres (sp?) in the book "The New Middle East" suggests using money from the wealthy nations to build the infrastructure and economy of the Palistinians as they built the infrastructure and economy of Israel. With a little help getting started Gaza could look like Hong Kong. And people with food in their stomach and hope in the future don't fight. The cost? Less that half of what the Western Powers were spending on military in the Mid-East BEFORE the Afganistan/Iraq war. Wouldn't it be something if the "Christian?" nations would actually use love instead of war? If they would feed the hungry and cloth the naked instead of seeing how big of boom they can make and how many they can kill.

As you would know, Israel has been attacking lebanon. This is as a result of Hezbollah attacks.
I know that Hezbollah is fighting the Israelis, but does anyone know if Lebanon will mobilise its actual army?

The Lebanese Army is weak. Hezbollah is far stronger.

Lebanon doesn't have an army. Or even much of a police force. What it has, is Syria coming in and walking around, taking beer out of the fridge, watching the pay-per-view and using the bathroom without asking.

Lebanon doesn't have an army. Or even much of a police force. What it has, is Syria coming in and walking around, taking beer out of the fridge, watching the pay-per-view and using the bathroom without asking.

Don't forget Hezbollah bending them over the couch for some play.

It's really sad for Lebanon. Everything was looking up for them. A booming economy, a pretty stable government, little religious violence, and all the Syrian troops out. Things were looking good for the future of Lebanon.

And then Isreal came a knocking.

In answer to the original quesion. If the army of Lebanon had the power they would have removed the Hezballah in the first place. Lebanon has never used it's army to attack anyone since the modern creation of the nation. It was Israel pushing people into Lebanon the destableized Lebanon and made it a base for attackers. Something the people of Lebanon never did. Lebanon traditionally made it's way as a tourism destination. War and tourism don't go together. Remember when the PLO were first pushed into Lebanon? The center of the war was the Holiday Inn.

Now Syria is another story. Lebanon was once a province of Syria. It was made independent because it was majority Christian (now that Israel has pushed Muslims in it is now a slight majority Muslim) and didn't fit with the Muslim Syria. Yet it maintains strong ties to Syria. (Much like Puerto Rico and the US.) If Syria felt it had a chance it would attack Israel to protect Lebanon.
But without modern weapons it would probably feel it didn't have a chance.

the Palistinians were pushed into the worst and expected to starve. So there is a "Fourth World" people living next to a "First World" culture. You expect them to be satisfied??


And they were allowed to stay in Israel if they wanted. It was the emerging PLO that advocated them leaving Israel, settling elsewhere, and would "retake" the land after tye destroyed Israel.

That failed, and now they're starving. Yes it's tragic, and they have only themselves to blame.

As you would know, Israel has been attacking lebanon. This is as a result of Hezbollah attacks.
I know that Hezbollah is fighting the Israelis, but does anyone know if Lebanon will mobilise its actual army?

Well if they do, I'm sure they'll use it against Hezbollah since they are actually holding them responsible for the Israeli attacks on them.

It's really sad for Lebanon. Everything was looking up for them. A booming economy, a pretty stable government, little religious violence, and all the Syrian troops out. Things were looking good for the future of Lebanon.

And then Isreal came a knocking.

Actually, Hezbollah got upity and attacked in Cross-Border violence against Israel and thus Israel took swift action.

Lebanon doesn't have an army. Or even much of a police force. What it has, is Syria coming in and walking around, taking beer out of the fridge, watching the pay-per-view and using the bathroom without asking.
I don't think Lebanon would have Beer, well the Christians might...

Sometimes you get the feeling that Israel would call a guy with a AK shooting at their aircraft a "aa gun"..

I saw videos on Fox and CNN that had an armoured APC with a rather large surface to air machine gun on top. Seems pretty serious for just a bunch of "terrorists."

Gog and Magog. The whole of Arab countries might get involved, and Israel will kick some major ass, and the clean up will talke 7 years.

Gog and Magog. The whole of Arab countries might get involved, and Israel will kick some major ass, and the clean up will talke 7 years.

I think you might want to rethink Bible Prophecy.

I don't think Lebanon would have Beer, well the Christians might...
Their wine is legendary.

What ticks me off is that everyone hates the arabs for hating Israel, but have any of you even considered that Israel shouldnt even be there? The muslims have a right to be angry. Britain and Israel just came in and took their land and displaced an entire people.

What ticks me off is that everyone hates the arabs for hating Israel, but have any of you even considered that Israel shouldnt even be there? The muslims have a right to be angry. Britain and Israel just came in and took their land and displaced an entire people.

In reality, arabs shouldn't be there either if you want to go down that logical pathway.

I saw videos on Fox and CNN that had an armoured APC with a rather large surface to air machine gun on top. Seems pretty serious for just a bunch of "terrorists."

Not to mention the unmanned drone that they used to strike an Israeli naval ship. Methinks these are more than your run of the mill sabre rattlers.

Syria will probably launch a massive airstirke on Tel Aviv....they should anyway.

What ticks me off is that everyone hates the arabs for hating Israel, but have any of you even considered that Israel shouldnt even be there? The muslims have a right to be angry. Britain and Israel just came in and took their land and displaced an entire people.
They're there now. They're not going anywhere. What do you think would happen if the Native Americans tried to take back the USA? There is such a thing as accepting reality you know. It does the arabs no good to attack Israel. Only provokes counterattacks.

Syria will probably launch a massive airstirke on Tel Aviv....they should anyway.
That will only serve to destroy the Syrian airforce. They can't go up against Israeli pilots and air defense and hope to survive.

what is the israeli take on foreigners in their millitary?

Their wine is legendary.
I'll take your word for it.
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In other news Hezbollah has attack drones.

In other news Hezbollah has attack drones.
So it would seem.

what is the israeli take on foreigners in their millitary?

Itchin' for a fight?

What ticks me off is that everyone hates the arabs for hating Israel, but have any of you even considered that Israel shouldnt even be there? The muslims have a right to be angry. Britain and Israel just came in and took their land and displaced an entire people.
It was the US who signed on the dotted line making Israel nationaly recognised. All hail the US's amazing foresight.

What ticks me off is that everyone hates the arabs for hating Israel, but have any of you even considered that Israel shouldnt even be there? The muslims have a right to be angry. Britain and Israel just came in and took their land and displaced an entire people.


dude seriously learn some history it could take us forever educating u so instead u can just read a few of these websites

http://www.palestinefacts.org - just click history on the bottom

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html - this is good if u have any questions about it

Not to mention the unmanned drone that they used to strike an Israeli naval ship. Methinks these are more than your run of the mill sabre rattlers.

Source please?

It was the US who signed on the dotted line making Israel nationaly recognised. All hail the US's amazing foresight.


And then the arabs came to take the land away from Israel and got their butts kicked....... so they took it away from the palestinians instead

Jordan annexed the west bank, Eygpt, the gaza strip.

It was the US who signed on the dotted line making Israel nationaly recognised. All hail the US's amazing foresight.

Funny...I thought it was the UN.

Syria will probably launch a massive airstirke on Tel Aviv....they should anyway.

With what? How are they going to get past Israeli's Air defense net? Not to mention fighters.

Source please?
Unconfirmed anonymous Israeli sources, according to BBC, CNN and just about everyone else. As usual, I am sceptical.

With what? How are they going to get past Israeli's Air defense net? Not to mention fighters.

Military logic isn't NS General's forte.

I'll take your word for it.
----------------------------------------
In other news Hezbollah has attack drones.

I hereby proclaim that this is now open season on Hezbollah terrorists.

It was the US who signed on the dotted line making Israel nationaly recognised. All hail the US's amazing foresight.

No dotted line necessary. All it takes is the President to recognize a nation. US wasn't the only one either.

Unconfirmed anonymous Israeli sources, according to BBC, CNN and just about everyone else. As usual, I am sceptical.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203453,00.html

I wouldn't say unconfirmed for it looks like it is confirmed.

Lebanon is taking official action against Hezbollah, so why is Israel destroying its civilian infrastructure?

Lebanon is taking official action against Hezbollah, so why is Israel destroying its civilian infrastructure?

When did they say that?

Source please?

They've had them a while. Here's an old story about them from April 2005:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7477528/

The one used to hit a naval vessel is unconfirmed, but the ship was most definately damaged by something.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/14/mideast/index.html

Israel confirmed an attack against one of their ships -

Though Israel said it was only "light damage" whilst Hezbollah on their own news channel said it was sunk, whilst the BBC say it was "burning for some hours"


All hearsay at the moment

First victim of war is truth

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203453,00.html

I wouldn't say unconfirmed for it looks like it is confirmed.


Meanwhile Israeli military officials say a naval ship has been badly damaged by a Hezbollah explosive drone.

If confirmed, it is thought it would be the first time Hezbollah has used such a weapon.

Looks like it is still a developing story, so I continue to withold judgement.

I think everyone should visit this site.http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/palestine.html

I think everyone should visit this site.http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/palestine.html

Or we could concern ourselves with something relevent.

I think everyone should visit this site.http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/palestine.html

Dear me.

"Source: Joan Peter's "From Time Immemorial" Harper & Row Publishers
(with over 150 pages of well sourced footnotes)"

This book has been lambasted from Tel Aviv to Timbuktu as not only shoddily researched, but deliberately dishonest. It is in fact notorious.

I think everyone should visit this site.http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/palestine.html

All I have to say is .... "Wow! Those Mongol's really got around!"

lol and none of it changes the fact that a people have a right to self-determination, nothing to do with ancient history

All I have to say is .... "Wow! Those Mongol's really got around!"

Largest land empire in history.

I wank to Ghengis Khan late at night.

All I have to say is .... "Wow! Those Mongol's really got around!"

You'd wonder why the Steppe pony went out of common usage....

Israel confirmed an attack against one of their ships -

Though Israel said it was only "light damage" whilst Hezbollah on their own news channel said it was sunk, whilst the BBC say it was "burning for some hours"


All hearsay at the moment

First victim of war is truth

I wouldn't say lightly damaged. It was severly damaged but it was not sunk.

Or we could concern ourselves with something relevent.
QFT.

Anyway, it's not as if anyone in the Middle East has actual armies any more. There's Israel and Iran, but apart from them, everyone else has just a motorised militia at best. No functioning armoured units, no functioning air forces. Even the Saudi military is a joke - they buy top-end US and UK gear almost as part of their oil and construction industry contract negotiations, then place it into storage. This isn't the 1960s or 1970s, there isn't going to be much of a shooting war. I think it'll either be the 1998 bombing of Iraq all over again, ie a limited period of operations, or if Israel insists, the 1980s insurgency repeated. Either way, they have to realise that in the absence of actual Arab Armies rolling towards them, they are going to end up looking pretty bad.

I wouldn't say lightly damaged. It was severly damaged but it was not sunk.

Ah ok, I hadn't heard anything definitive yet, each source is telling it differently.

The simple fact is, this crisis will just burn itself out like all the other ones.

These people, the Jews and the Arabs around them, have been killing each other since the days of Egyptian glory, continued to do it until the Roman Empire came in and expelled the Jews (and the Arabs continued to slaughter one another), and now the Jews come back in 1948 and these people pick right back up where they left off.

They'll do this until the world ends or they kill each other off, whichever comes first. Diplomacy will solve nothing in this region. You can't "talk" to people that believe their opponent is the epitome of evil.

Or we could concern ourselves with something relevent.
Im sorry i thought this was about Israel and its history, try looking at some of the links down the page.

Lebanon doesn't have an army. Or even much of a police force.
http://www.lebarmy.gov.lb/?ln=en
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Armed_Forces
The army's equipment includes approximately 700 US-made M-113 armored personnel carriers, 100 US-made M-48 A1/A5 medium tanks, 200 Soviet-made T-54/T-55 medium tanks, and 40 French-made AMX-13 light tanks. The army also has a variety of artillery equipment and ground-based missile systems.

The air force currently lacks any operational fixed wing aircraft. Active aircraft include approximately 30 ex-US Army Bell UH-1H helicopters, which are used throughout the country on a variety of missions.

[Navy] Equipment includes 5 British-made ATTACKER-class patrol boats, 2 British-made TRACKER-class patrol boats, and 2 French-made EDIC-class landing crafts.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/lebanon/index.html

In other words, they do have a military, they probably don't have drones, but doing anything to Israel would be pointless. So they'll continue to just take it and hope for international outrage.

Oh who cares about the ship. So the bridge or wheelhouse or whatever got owned by a missile. It is a distracting detail.

QFT.

Anyway, it's not as if anyone in the Middle East has actual armies any more. There's Israel and Iran, but apart from them, everyone else has just a motorised militia at best. No functioning armoured units, no functioning air forces. Even the Saudi military is a joke - they buy top-end US and UK gear almost as part of their oil and construction industry contract negotiations, then place it into storage. This isn't the 1960s or 1970s, there isn't going to be much of a shooting war. I think it'll either be the 1998 bombing of Iraq all over again, ie a limited period of operations, or if Israel insists, the 1980s insurgency repeated. Either way, they have to realise that in the absence of actual Arab Armies rolling towards them, they are going to end up looking pretty bad.


I agree, but do they really care about looking bad?

Israel has taken out two major civilian targtes recently (Beirut airport and the gaza power station), and not by accident, both were planned attacks.

I'm mostly worried that Israel is going to throw it's weight and cause some serious long-term damage to Lebanon

In other words, they do have a military, they probably don't have drones, but doing anything to Israel would be pointless. So they'll continue to just take it and hope for international outrage.

Has international pressure ever stopped Israel from doing what it considers right?

Im sorry i thought this was about Israel and its history, try looking at some of the links down the page.


History is a poor excuse for a war my friend

Oh who cares about the ship. So the bridge or wheelhouse or whatever got owned by a missile. It is a distracting detail.

Actually it was a missile ship and it is not a distracting detail. Only a fool would say it was a detracting detail. Hezbollah now has decided to wage open warfare and attacked the ship during the announcement. Its more than a distracting detail but yet another step along the pathway to an all out war.

In other words, they do have a military, they probably don't have drones, but doing anything to Israel would be pointless. So they'll continue to just take it and hope for international outrage.
Oh please, the stuff you listed is 1960s junk that's probably scattered across scrapyards and is not officially off the books. If any of it still works, it runs on cannibalised parts and will need a gearbox replacing every week.

Actually it was a missile ship and it is not a distracting detail. Only a fool would say it was a detracting detail. Hezbollah now has decided to wage open warfare and attacked the ship during the announcement. Its more than a distracting detail but yet another step along the pathway to an all out war.

So far Lebanon is using its UN ambassadors and has shown now signs of wanting to wage war, it has also invoked a resolution against Hezbollah.

Hezbollah however have declared that they want to fight open war.

For some reason Israel has seen fit to attack lebanese civilian targets

Has international pressure ever stopped Israel from doing what it considers right?
No. But it's not like Lebanon has a better option.

I'm seriously sad about this. The Lebanese aren't like the Palestinians, they don't care about Israel. They've got their own problems, they're trying to get away from Syria and all that.

Hezbollah's milita started this, and they should be taken out. But why does Israel have to set back the rest of Lebanon back many years? And in the process give back power to the fundamentalists and Hezbollah itself, who've been in trouble in recent years as many young people turn away from them.

It's just so unfair.

People are going to get at me for using that word, but Lebanon doesn't deserve this. They really don't. Bomb Syria if you have to. Bomb Gaza, public opinion is firmly in favour of bombing Israeli civilians. But leave the Lebanese alone, for crying out loud.

So far Lebanon is using its UN ambassadors and has shown now signs of wanting to wage war, it has also invoked a resolution against Hezbollah.

Hezbollah however have declared that they want to fight open war.

For some reason Israel has seen fit to attack lebanese civilian targets

So, it seems as though Lebanon is caught in between. Sucks to be them. :(

Actually it was a missile ship and it is not a distracting detail. Only a fool would say it was a detracting detail. Hezbollah now has decided to wage open warfare and attacked the ship during the announcement. Its more than a distracting detail but yet another step along the pathway to an all out war.
The precise fate of a single unit always ends up being a keyboard warrior statwank, which is why I am not particularly interested. Seeing as the spokespeople themselves are contradicting themselves at the moment, it does not matter. I am more interested in the broader picture.

The precise fate of a single unit always ends up being a keyboard warrior statwank, which is why I am not particularly interested. Seeing as the spokespeople themselves are contradicting themselves at the moment, it does not matter. I am more interested in the broader picture.

I suppose it depends on context.

If the ship were the "incident" that sparked it all off it might be more relevent to the wider picture what exactly had happened to it.

However you are right, the ship seems just one instance in an exculating chain of events

History is a poor excuse for a war my friend
Fair point but since when has that actually mattered

Fair point but since when has that actually mattered

It matters in so far as history cannot be used by Israel as a justification

So far Lebanon is using its UN ambassadors and has shown now signs of wanting to wage war, it has also invoked a resolution against Hezbollah.

Good.

Hezbollah however have declared that they want to fight open war.

Yes they have and since they control southern Lebanon....

For some reason Israel has seen fit to attack lebanese civilian targets

Well since the Airport is used as a supply depot for the rockets that have attacked israel, it makes it a vital target to hit. Offices of Hezbollah are also legal targets since they are a terrorist organization.

The precise fate of a single unit always ends up being a keyboard warrior statwank, which is why I am not particularly interested. Seeing as the spokespeople themselves are contradicting themselves at the moment, it does not matter. I am more interested in the broader picture.

Makes 2 of us but the fact that Hezbollah has officially declared open warfare, this attack will just make Israel madder.

Good.



Yes they have and since they control southern Lebanon....



Well since the Airport is used as a supply depot for the rockets that have attacked israel, it makes it a vital target to hit. Offices of Hezbollah are also legal targets since they are a terrorist organization.

Dangerous legal territory, attacking a civilian target is generally against international law, even if it has a military advantage.

We aren't talking about a military airbase here, a few days back you would have been able to be a ticket to this airport quite easily

Not to mention the unmanned drone that they used to strike an Israeli naval ship. Methinks these are more than your run of the mill sabre rattlers.
I see.

In other news Hezbollah has attack drones.So it would seem.
Indeed.

Dangerous legal territory, attacking a civilian target is generally against international law, even if it has a military advantage.

If it has a military advantage, it become a legal target.

We aren't talking about a military airbase here, a few days back you would have been able to be a ticket to this airport quite easily

A few days ago, Israel wasn't in Lebanon. They still arent unless they have actually launched a ground invasion.

If it has a military advantage, it become a legal target.



A few days ago, Israel wasn't in Lebanon. They still arent unless they have actually launched a ground invasion.

A logical target, not legal.

It is a war crime to damage civilian infrastrcture

A logical target, not legal.

It is a war crime to damage civilian infrastrure

Unless it is being used to a military advantage. The Lebanon International Airport happens to be the airport that those rockets that are used against Israel were unloaded. Thus, it makes it a legal military target.

Unless it is being used to a military advantage. The Lebanon International Airport happens to be the airport that those rockets that are used against Israel were unloaded. Thus, it makes it a legal military target.


hmmm - not sure i agree with your interpretation with international law, but i have no immediate reference and i'm no lawyer, so i'll have to agree to disagree for time being unless you have a direct source

hmmm - not sure i agree with your interpretation with international law, but i have no immediate reference and i'm no lawyer, so i'll have to agree to disagree for time being unless you have a direct source

Its always been like that. Under international law, civilian buildings are offlimits to attacks. The only time they are legal to hit is if the enemy is using it for their own purposes against their enemies...I.E. using it as supply depot to hit your enemy.

Unless it is being used to a military advantage. The Lebanon International Airport happens to be the airport that those rockets that are used against Israel were unloaded. Thus, it makes it a legal military target.

No, regardless of military advantage it is illegal to damage civilian infrastructure when it is likely to result in civilian loss of life.

http://www.genevaconventions.org/

That's a good resource, contains the full text and quick references.

This invasion of Lebanon is total bullshit. Last year the UN passed a Resolution mandating that occupying forces leave the country and allow the country to re-establish their democratic way of life.

Syria withdraws and then what happens? It is obvious that Israel is disengenuous in this matter. The UN should call for Israel to cease and desist immediately.

Danger in Pushing Syria Out of Lebanon (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/lebanon/2004/1101awry.htm)

Western Diplomatic Initiatives Could Go Horribly Awry

It is "awry" alright!!

Its always been like that. Under international law, civilian buildings are offlimits to attacks. The only time they are legal to hit is if the enemy is using it for their own purposes against their enemies...I.E. using it as supply depot to hit your enemy.


Well a terrorist organisation used it to smuggle weapons, but it is a civilian building belonging to a sovreign territory that is in fact opposed to the terrorists in question.

This invasion of Lebanon is total bullshit. Last year the UN passed a Resolution mandating that occupying forces leave the country and allow the country to re-establish their democratic way of life.

Syria withdraws and then what happens? It is obvious that Israel is disengenuous in this matter. The UN should call for Israel to cease and desist immediately.

Danger in Pushing Syria Out of Lebanon (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/lebanon/2004/1101awry.htm)

Western Diplomatic Initiatives Could Go Horribly Awry

It is "awry" alright!!

What a shitty way to build peace and trust?

Its always been like that. Under international law, civilian buildings are offlimits to attacks. The only time they are legal to hit is if the enemy is using it for their own purposes against their enemies...I.E. using it as supply depot to hit your enemy.


Well a terrorist organisation used it to smuggle weapons, but it is a civilian building belonging to a sovreign territory that is in fact opposed to the terrorists in question.

No, regardless of military advantage it is illegal to damage civilian infrastructure when it is likely to result in civilian loss of life.

http://www.genevaconventions.org/

That's a good resource, contains the full text and quick references.

Unfortunately you have a minor problem. Under International law, Israel has the right to do what it did because it was aiding the terrorists. Therefor, it became a target the minute the plane with the rockets landed there to be unloaded and used against Israel.

This invasion of Lebanon is total bullshit. Last year the UN passed a Resolution mandating that occupying forces leave the country and allow the country to re-establish their democratic way of life.

Aimed at Syria and syria ironiclly mostly complied.

Syria withdraws and then what happens? It is obvious that Israel is disengenuous in this matter. The UN should call for Israel to cease and desist immediately.

Lebanon had democratic elections but yet failed to implement a UN Resolution demanding them to disarm hezbollah who has the run of Southern Lebanon.

Unfortunately you have a minor problem. Under International law, Israel has the right to do what it did because it was aiding the terrorists. Therefor, it became a target the minute the plane with the rockets landed there to be unloaded and used against Israel.

Please show me the treaty that allows Israel to bomb another country's airports in times of war.

Well a terrorist organisation used it to smuggle weapons, but it is a civilian building belonging to a sovreign territory that is in fact opposed to the terrorists in question.

Those smuggled weapons made the airport a target much like armed insurgents firing at US troops from mosques made the mosques military targets.

Still waiting to see the part of any international treaty ratified by both parties that allows Israel to bomb that airport.

Please show me the treaty that allows Israel to bomb another country's airports in times of war.

The airport was used by terrorists to bring in their rockets they aim at israel. As such, that made the airport a target under International Law.

Unfortunately you have a minor problem. Under International law, Israel has the right to do what it did because it was aiding the terrorists. Therefor, it became a target the minute the plane with the rockets landed there to be unloaded and used against Israel.

I'm afraid Lebanon has openly opposed the terrorists, the fact that they used a lebanese airport to smuggle weapons doesn't make it a target.

Also, I don't believe international law makes that provision, though America has in the past attacked nations that it believes are harbouring terrorists you must remember that the US has pulled out of the geneva convention and does not always follow international law

The airport was used by terrorists to bring in their rockets they aim at israel. As such, that made the airport a target under International Law.

What law? You can't just cite mysterious, ethereal international law. Show me quotes.

This can easily be settled by refencing the law in question.

Which treaty allows the attacking of civilian targets when being used by terrorists?

I'm afraid Lebanon has openly opposed the terrorists, the fact that they used a lebanese airport to smuggle weapons doesn't make it a target.

However they failed to disarm the terrorists and failed to prevent them from smuggling the weapons in. So Yes, it is a military target under International Law.

Also, I don't believe international law makes that provision, though America has in the past attacked nations that it believes are harbouring terrorists you must remember that the US has pulled out of the geneva convention and does not always follow international law

Oh its a provision alright for smuggling weapons through a civilian location turns that location into a military target.

This can easily be settled by refencing the law in question.

Which treaty allows the attacking of civilian targets when being used by terrorists?

Who said it had to be a treaty to be recognized as international law?

However they failed to disarm the terrorists and failed to prevent them from smuggling the weapons in. So Yes, it is a military target under International Law.



Oh its a provision alright for smuggling weapons through a civilian location turns that location into a military target.

I'm afraid I must ask you to cite this law before I believe that.

They're there now. They're not going anywhere. What do you think would happen if the Native Americans tried to take back the USA? There is such a thing as accepting reality you know. It does the arabs no good to attack Israel. Only provokes counterattacks.

Learn history... 60 years after the whites took over America, Native Americans were still fighting for their land.

Also, do you mean to say that anything that can happen to a person/people/state should just be blindly accepted and that if it screws up someone's life they should not try to fix their life but accept it as reality?

Who said it had to be a treaty to be recognized as international law?

That's what international law is, DUH.

Who said it had to be a treaty to be recognized as international law?

That's what international law is. Treaties agreed upon between nations

That's what international law is, DUH.

Its a PART of International Law but I.L is not fully comprised of Treaties.

Its a PART of International Law but I.L is not fully comprised of Treaties.


Please expand on that?
I do not see your logic.
And please cite the "international law" you keep referencing

Please expand on that?
I do not see your logic.
And please cite the "international law" you keep referencing

Ever heard the word Custom?

International Law is made up of treaties! That much is true. But what is also true is that Custom also makes up International Law.

Ever heard the word Custom?

International Law is made up of treaties! That much is true. But what is also true is that Custom also makes up International Law.

Yes i am aware what customs are.
I think you may be confused though, a custom is a tradition, we may "customarily" attack civilian targets for a military advantage, but that does not make it legal.

An international law is a treaty, that can technically be enforced, if you break one then you can be brought to trial.

As Saddamn is being tried for "crime against humanity" a very specific law.

Customs are not clear-cut or specific enough to be law, there is no legal precedent for upholding them and no means to accurately define their parameters in court

Ever heard the word Custom?

International Law is made up of treaties! That much is true. But what is also true is that Custom also makes up International Law.
Friendly warning; you're on really shaky logic here.

Friendly warning; you're on really shaky logic here.

Even my international law professor stated that Customs are part of International Law along with signed and ratified treaties.

Aimed at Syria and syria ironiclly mostly complied.
Syria completely complied.

Lebanon had democratic elections but yet failed to implement a UN Resolution demanding them to disarm hezbollah who has the run of Southern Lebanon.
How many UN Resolutions has Israel defied? How many UN Resolutions has the US vetoed on behalf of Israel?

How long does it take to "disarm hezbollah "?????

How long does it take to capture Bin Laden?

Snap of the fingers huh?

Israel is just so wrong in attacking Lebanon.

Imagine that you had been one of the Lebanese people pushing for the withdrawal of Syrian forces, and your elation when that happenerd?

Then imagine Israel bombing your country shortly after Syria has withdrawn. What would you feel? Bewilderment? Frustration? Betrayal?

This is total BS!!

Even my international law professor stated that Customs are part of International Law along with signed and ratified treaties.

You can't enforce 'customs'. Treaties are what make up international law. You're on prett yshitty ground if you blow up a load of civilians 'as dictated by custom'.

Even my international law professor stated that Customs are part of International Law along with signed and ratified treaties.


customs may be observed but have no legal basis. How could they?

I have asked numerous times for you to cite a source for your claim but you seem reluctent to do so.

Is your proffesor published perhaps?

Exscuse me, but am I the ONLY person here who thinks Lebanons right and Israel's wrong? (please answer, this aint rhetorical)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13285581/

Exscuse me, but am I the ONLY person here who thinks Lebanons right and Israel's wrong? (please answer, this aint rhetorical)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13285581/

No, i think lebanon is in the right here.

Syria completely complied.

did they move their intel agents out?

How many UN Resolutions has Israel defied? How many UN Resolutions has the US vetoed on behalf of Israel?

Several. Some warrented others not.

How long does it take to "disarm hezbollah "?????

They haven't tried.

How long does it take to capture Bin Laden?

However long it takes to get him.

Snap of the fingers huh?

Nope. never said it was.

Israel is just so wrong in attacking Lebanon.

Since Lebanon did nothing about Hezbollah (who operates freely in Southern Lebanon) Israel is completely right. I do however, support the fact that Lebanon wants a cease fire and Omart has agreed to a negotiated one. Hopefully that'll help end this madness.

Imagine that you had been one of the Lebanese people pushing for the withdrawal of Syrian forces, and your elation when that happenerd?

I remember the celebration in the streets.

Then imagine Israel bombing your country shortly after Syria has withdrawn. What would you feel? Bewilderment? Frustration? Betrayal?

This is total BS!!

I guess you do not realize that Hezbollah is part of lebanon? That it was Hezbollah that started this ruckus? That most of the country is pissed off at Hezbollah for starting this ruckus?

customs may be observed but have no legal basis. How could they?

I have asked numerous times for you to cite a source for your claim but you seem reluctent to do so.

Is your proffesor published perhaps?

His professor is professor of international law at the Online University of Phoenix.

You can't enforce 'customs'. Treaties are what make up international law.

Take an international law class you might be surprised.

You're on prett yshitty ground if you blow up a load of civilians 'as dictated by custom'.

Are terrorists considered civilians?

did they move their intel agents out?



Several. Some warrented others not.



They haven't tried.



However long it takes to get him.



Nope. never said it was.



Since Lebanon did nothing about Hezbollah (who operates freely in Southern Lebanon) Israel is completely right. I do however, support the fact that Lebanon wants a cease fire and Omart has agreed to a negotiated one. Hopefully that'll help end this madness.



I remember the celebration in the streets.



I guess you do not realize that Hezbollah is part of lebanon? That it was Hezbollah that started this ruckus? That most of the country is pissed off at Hezbollah for starting this ruckus?


Lebanon has been resisting Hezbollah, but they cannot easily do so.

Israel is punishing lebanese civilians for the actions of Syrian-Iranian sponsored terrorists

I guess you do not realize that Hezbollah is part of lebanon? That it was Hezbollah that started this ruckus?

Your thinking in too small of terms. Israel actually started it. (Actually if you want to go farther hitler started it :p)

Your thinking in too small of terms. Israel actually started it. (Actually if you want to go farther hitler started it :p)

If you want to go back to the beginning, humans started it. Dastardly humans.

Take an international law class you might be surprised.



Are terrorists considered civilians?

Actually, yes. The only provision I can find is one for guerillas, and that only covers people carrying weapons overtly.

Take an international law class you might be surprised.



Are terrorists considered civilians?


save me some time. Please just cite your source

did they move their intel agents out?

Several. Some warrented others not.

They haven't tried.

However long it takes to get him.

Nope. never said it was.

Since Lebanon did nothing about Hezbollah (who operates freely in Southern Lebanon) Israel is completely right. I do however, support the fact that Lebanon wants a cease fire and Omart has agreed to a negotiated one. Hopefully that'll help end this madness.

I remember the celebration in the streets.

I guess you do not realize that Hezbollah is part of lebanon? That it was Hezbollah that started this ruckus? That most of the country is pissed off at Hezbollah for starting this ruckus?
You keep making excuses. You do not support peace....you support death and destruction. Tell me......what Christian supports the deaths of innocent people in this fiasco?

Israel has gone too far in this charade.

customs may be observed but have no legal basis. How could they?

Actually, they do have legal basis.

I have asked numerous times for you to cite a source for your claim but you seem reluctent to do so.

Is your proffesor published perhaps?

Yes she is actually.

Actually, they do have legal basis.



Yes she is actually.

Wonderful.
You will have no difficulty citing your source then

His professor is professor of international law at the Online University of Phoenix.

:rolleyes:

Are terrorists considered civilians?


I'm sorry, but did you just get fed BULSH1T? Not every person in Lebanon is a terrorist, same in Palestine. Look at the statistics. The Lebanese peoples have killed 2 (Two) civilians and 8 soldiers. The Israelis have killed 52 civilians, and almost no hezbollah militants.

In Palestine they do the same thing, use terrorism against civilians, and arrest members of a government who did NOTHING WRONG. The Israeli government is the terrorist here!


OOC: no im not a terrorist/muslim extremist :mp5: :p

Your thinking in too small of terms. Israel actually started it. (Actually if you want to go farther hitler started it :p)

Go back a couple thousand more years and you'll hit the nail on the head. Sorry but no, Israel did not start this fight.

Go back a couple thousand more years and you'll hit the nail on the head. Sorry but no, Israel did not start this fight.

explain to me how they didnt. I can explain how they did :D

Go back a couple thousand more years and you'll hit the nail on the head. Sorry but no, Israel did not start this fight.
Are you going to cite source yet?

I'm sorry, but did you just get fed BULSH1T? Not every person in Lebanon is a terrorist, same in Palestine. Look at the statistics. The Lebanese peoples have killed 2 (Two) civilians and 8 soldiers. The Israelis have killed 52 civilians, and almost no hezbollah militants.

Your right but nice dodge of the question.

In Palestine they do the same thing, use terrorism against civilians, and arrest members of a government who did NOTHING WRONG. The Israeli government is the terrorist here!

Your racism is showing.

Are you going to cite source yet?

Any building used for other than civilian purposes is a legit military target. It has always been that way. Not my fault that information isn't getting through your thick head.

Your right but nice dodge of the question.



Your racism is showing.

Classic argument there:

You don't support Israel. RACIST!

Go back a couple thousand more years and you'll hit the nail on the head. Sorry but no, Israel did not start this fight.
You obviously haven't thought your way through this whole hodge ppdge have you?

What happens if Syria gets drawn into this and Iran starts lobbing missles at Israel?

Ahhh thats right, you love a good war!! :rolleyes:

Any building used for other than civilian purposes is a legit military target. It has always been that way. Not my fault that information isn't getting through your thick head.

Is the headquarters of a legitimate political party fair game?

Your right but nice dodge of the question.

Your racism is showing.
YOU are the artful dodger. Many people have asked you to provide proof and you give them mumbo jumbo. You have no proof because you are totally wrong.

Corneliu

I shall cite my source then.

http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/convention4.html

The Geneva Convention is international law.

[quote]Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War , 12 August 1949.

Preamble

The undersigned Plenipotentiaries of the Governments represented at the Diplomatic Conference held at Geneva from April 21 to August 12, 1949, for the purpose of establishing a Convention for the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, have agreed as follows:

Part I. General Provisions

Art. 1. The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.

Art. 2. In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace-time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.

Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.

Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons: (a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (b) taking of hostages; (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment; (d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

Any building used for other than civilian purposes is a legit military target. It has always been that way. Not my fault that information isn't getting through your thick head.


You keep saying that but cannot cite a single source to back your opinion

Are you going to cite source yet?
Don't hold your breath. It is his forte.

Claims...lots of claims...but no proof.

I'm sorry, but did you just get fed BULSH1T? Not every person in Lebanon is a terrorist, same in Palestine. Look at the statistics. The Lebanese peoples have killed 2 (Two) civilians and 8 soldiers. The Israelis have killed 52 civilians, and almost no hezbollah militants.

In Palestine they do the same thing, use terrorism against civilians, and arrest members of a government who did NOTHING WRONG. The Israeli government is the terrorist here!


OOC: no im not a terrorist/muslim extremist :mp5: :p

Hang on... you're saying Hamas did nothing wrong?

Your racism is showing.
The fact that someone objects to a country using terrorist methods to achieve their goals does NOT make them a "racist". Nice try Corny.

Oh yeh Hamas did wrong things but what im trying to say is:

A. Israel started it (no dont start flaming me, they should have stopped it but neither did)

and

B. Israel is doing bad things too

Wow... calling me racist when nothing I said was remotely rasicist. I got you onto your last resort already? Or are you just such an idiot thats your first resort?

explain to me how they didnt. I can explain how they did :D


If you're talking about getting the territory itself, it was Britain who gave away the territory for a Jewish state and a Muslim state. The Palestinians refused to accept the formation of a Jewish state, so they would claim the territory that had been granted, claiming that all of it was theirs (Despite the fact the previously it was part of the Ottoman Empire, hten, after World War I, the British Empire.). Seeing an operatunity (a country that wouldn't claim its own land), Jordan claimed all of Eastern Palestine, and Egypt claimed all of southern Palestine. Assyria then snapped up the Golan Hights (then Northern Palestine). Not being countries to let other countries stand in their way, they then attacked the newly-formed (and, at the time, completely unarmed Israel). Thier armies moving through the land on the way there destroyed many villiages and terrified the villiagers (hence the why many Palestinian villiages were abandoned (No, it wasn't Israel that did it; they themselves were also just a collection of villiages at the time.). Israel survived the attack, though the remainder of Palestine did not.

I see what ur saying... It was the brits :rolleyes:

Convention 4
Part III
Article 33

Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.


---------

indiscriminate attacks

Indiscriminate attacks are those which are not directed at a specific military objective or those which use a method of attack that cannot be directed at or limited to a specific military objective. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

This includes area bombardment, where a number of clearly separated military objectives are treated as a single military objective, and where there is a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5a)


-----
Corneliu
I have claimed Israel's attack on Beruit airport to be illegal under international law, and provided source.

Now please provide yours or admit defeat

Classic argument there:

You don't support Israel. RACIST!

Sorry but that isn't what I said. There are several on here who don't support this action but I know who aren't racist.

You obviously haven't thought your way through this whole hodge ppdge have you?

What happens if Syria gets drawn into this and Iran starts lobbing missles at Israel?

Ahhh thats right, you love a good war!! :rolleyes:

Sorry but I do not enjoy war but I do consider it a fact of life.

Is the headquarters of a legitimate political party fair game?

If said target supports terror and has declared open war on a whole nation then yes.

So corny, your a fan of the whole "its a fact of life let it be other people can figure my problems out"?

Also, you never answered my question. and how am I being rasict?

If said target supports terror and has declared open war on a whole nation then yes.


Corneliu


I have asked you now 3 times to provide your source.

And you have not done so.

I have posted 3 sources of my own, and provided clear references for those sources.

Those sources are all primary sources of infomation.


I put it to you, that you have in fact made up your so called law about attacking civilian targtes, and that you stand refuted



:headbang:

One thing that has always irritated me about the news is the slightly twisted wording to which many, such as Azmi, have fallen victim. On the news (at least in America), they will say things like: "Israeli troops entered a house near Gaza today looking for militants. Two of the residents died." As opposed to what it really is: "Israeli troops entered a suspected Hamas safehouse near Gaza today, and, in the insuing counter-attack, two terrorist gunmen died." Attacking buildings in which terrorists have developed some kind of a base (an act that the U.S. does all the time) is not terrorism. Terrorism is attacking civilians (without the declaration of war) in a way intended to scare the people of the country against which it is committed. Counterterrorism isn't designed to scare; it's designed to capture and arrest terrorists. What you have claimed is definitely not terrorism.

Corneliu: master of dodging... Well, I say master...

Corneliu: master of dodging... Well, I say master...


Corneliu
http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/profundusmaximus.htm

Mt Sam
http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/kungfumaster.htm

United Time Lords
http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/philosopher.htm

:p

------

I think we can safely say that Corneliu has lost his debate

Is the headquarters of a legitimate political party fair game?

Yes, if the "political party" is also a terrorist organization (which both Hamas and Hezbollah are). It would be like if Al Qaeda called itself a politcal party and won seats in the parliament of Afganistan. Their party headquarters would be perfectly fair game.

Incidentally, Al Qaeda actually was a part of the government of Afganistan, and, yes, the United States did bomb them just after September 11th.

Yes, if the "political party" is also a terrorist organization (which both Hamas and Hezbollah are). It would be like if Al Qaeda called itself a politcal party and won seats in the parliament of Afganistan. Their party headquarters would be perfectly fair game.

Incidentally, Al Qaeda actually was a part of the government of Afganistan, and, yes, the United States did bomb them just after September 11th.

Given that Al Quaeda as an orginastion spreading global doom and gloom doesn't exist, that's special.

oh god we have another one.


OK

When on earth was Al Queida part of the taliban government, and can you prove this?

actually screw it, i'll age before my time if i keep on at this.


I'm off to bed.

I sincerely hope lebanon is still standing in the morning when i get up

That will only serve to destroy the Syrian airforce. They can't go up against Israeli pilots and air defense and hope to survive.
Yeah seriously. The IAF and SAF battled 24 years ago. Israel came out on top with an 80-0 kill ratio. I can only imagine it would be worse today with Israel having more F-15s with E-2C Hawkeyes to provide AWACS support.

oh god we have another one.


OK

When on earth was Al Queida part of the taliban government, and can you prove this?

I absolutely can. It was a large piece of the Taliban (the pre-"War on Terror" governement of Afganistan). That's why the U.S. actually invaded the country as opposed to just terrorist bases; it's because the country, in a way, was one huge terrorist base. Wheterh or not you knew this, Osama BinLaden actually had to clear the attack with the Taliban, and,in fact, the two worked hand-in-hand to find a way to make it all work properly. For example, the plan originally involved also attacking Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles and several other cities, and the two planes that were suppsoed to hit Washington were supposed to crash into the White House and the Capitol but the Taliban had the plan downsized. I can't remember the reason why, but I think it was a problem with lack of funding/manpower/coordination, etc. Al Quaeda was directly linked to the Taliban.

what is the israeli take on foreigners in their millitary?
I know Israel takes foreigners.

Lebanon is taking official action against Hezbollah, so why is Israel destroying its civilian infrastructure?
The roads and airports can be used to move the hostages. They are trying to keep the 2 hostages from being taken to Iran.

Yes. Theyre also making sure civilians cant leave. they said so themselves.

Yes. Theyre also making sure civilians cant leave. they said so themselves.
That's a side effect of Israel making sure the terrorists can't smuggle the 2 hostages into Iran.

Since Wednesday, 63 Lebanese, including two soldiers, have been killed and 167 others have been wounded, according to Lebanon's internal security forces.

The IDF reported that four Israeli civilians and eight Israeli soldiers have been killed

4 Israeli civilians have been killed and they blow this way out of proportion...

As proof that they are using terrorism and going for civilians... TWO hezballah militants have been killed compared to 63 civilians.

That's a side effect of Israel making sure the terrorists can't smuggle the 2 hostages into Iran.

Isn't it obvious that the hostages are just an excuse? You dont start bombing and terrorizing an entire nation due to two hostages like Israel did, especially in their position. Things like that happen...

Isn't it obvious that the hostages are just an excuse? You dont start bombing and terrorizing an entire nation due to two hostages like Israel did, especially in their position. Things like that happen...
It isn't just the hostages. It is the fact that Hezbollah has been firing rockets for years. Israel isn't at war with Lebanon. They are at war with Hezbollah. It is just bad for Lebanon that they refused to kick Hezbollah out and instead give them safe haven.

It is just bad for Lebanon that they refused to kick Hezbollah out and instead give them safe haven.
Oh come on, they were occupied by Israel for ever, and then de facto occupied by Syria, and now that Syria has sort of left, they are facing up to the fact that actually, they don't have an army and their police could be destroyed by Belgium.

Oh come on, they were occupied by Israel for ever, and then de facto occupied by Syria, and now that Syria has sort of left, they are facing up to the fact that actually, they don't have an army and their police could be destroyed by Belgium.
When Lebanon legitimizes them by letting them serve in the parliament, they sure are showing Israel they have no problems with terrorists being in their country. Lebanon is responsible for controlling their territory and will be held responsible.

They are not even at war with Hezbollah! They are at war with the people of Lebanon!

They are not even at war with Hezbalah! They are at war with the people of Lebanon!
Even Israel's government is saying they hold Syria and Iran responsible for this and not Lebanon. Isreal is hitting any target being used by Hezbollah. The places in southern Lebanon being hit are places where terrorists are storing the rockets or living.

When Lebanon legitimizes them by letting them serve in the parliament, they sure are showing Israel they have no problems with terrorists being in their country. Lebanon is responsible for controlling their territory and will be held responsible.
It's the compromise you make to avoid a civil war, which for a long time has been the pre-eminent challenge facing Lebanon. To a certain extent, that's how the UK secured peace in Northern Ireland - letting the terrorists sit and talk in a legislative assembly of sorts.

Holding them responsible for controlling their territory is an absurd concept, as they have never truly controlled it. It has been a series of terrorist organisations, Syria, Syria even building their own secret police interrogation centres there, and Israel, all taking turns. They don't have any allegiance to anyone who has set up camp for a decade or two over the years. They would rather the world get their eyeballs out of their arse and leave. But that doesn't look likely. In this respect Israel is shaping up to be just another hostile occupier with its own agenda, using the territory and treating the locals like inconvenient scenery.

To IDF: Then why the hell have they killed 63 Lebanese civilians??????

It's the compromise you make to avoid a civil war, which for a long time has been the pre-eminent challenge facing Lebanon. To a certain extent, that's how the UK secured peace in Northern Ireland - letting the terrorists sit and talk in a legislative assembly of sorts.

Holding them responsible for controlling their territory is an absurd concept, as they have never truly controlled it. It has been a series of terrorist organisations, Syria, Syria even building their own secret police interrogation centres there, and Israel, all taking turns. They don't have any allegiance to anyone who has set up camp for a decade or two over the years. They would rather the world get their eyeballs out of their arse and leave. But that doesn't look likely. In this respect Israel is shaping up to be just another hostile occupier with its own agenda, using the territory and treating the locals like inconvenient scenery.
Norhtern Ireland is not an analogous situation. We are talking about a group who's goal is the genocide of the Jews. It would be like trying to talk Hitler out of hating the Jews.

Lebanon is responsible. At the very least they shouldn't accept Hezbolah. When they let them take part in the government, they become a terrorist state.

Take it from someone who is Lebanese, if Lebanon will not mobilize its military, Lebanon does not want war with Israel, hell the grand majority of Maronite Lebanese(Half the pop, of which I am) WANT Israel to kick Hezbollah out.

Then why the hell have they killed 63 Lebanese civilians??????
When you fire a missile into an apartment used by the leader of Hezbollah, it is likely ajoining apartments wil be damaged in some way or another. If Israel truly wanted to kill civilians, then there would be near 100,000 dead at this point. The Israelis are trying to avoid civilian casualties. Bombs go off course. Israel is using some unguided bombs as guided bombs are fairly expensive. 63 dead considering all of the sorties being launched shows us that Israel is avoiding civilian deaths. If you argue otherwise, than you clearly have no knowledge of the effects of air wars.

It doesn't matter what they do, Israel will whipe the floor with them If they try anything, lets face it, their arab neighbors don't have a great track record against the Israelis, take the six day war, for example. I think we all are hoping for a peaceful solution here, but if one doesn't resolve, it will be Lebanon that's going to suffer the most.

Norhtern Ireland is not an analogous situation. We are talking about a group who's goal is the genocide of the Jews. It would be like trying to talk Hitler out of hating the Jews.

Lebanon is responsible. At the very least they shouldn't accept Hezbolah. When they let them take part in the government, they become a terrorist state.
You racist... not every damn muslim is a terrorist! And they really didnt give a crap about the jews until them and the Brits invaded arab territory.

You racist... not every damn muslim is a terrorist! And they really didnt give a crap about the jews until them and the Brits invaded arab territory.
It is safe to say most Muslims want to destroy the Jews. Just look at the mainstream Arab press. They draw anti-semitic charicatures in there daily.

Yes, I know the Lebanese dont want hezbollah.

Also, if they did that and killed 100,000 civilians the entire world would be on their backs, and even Bush would find it hard not to nuke them.

Norhtern Ireland is not an analogous situation. We are talking about a group who's goal is the genocide of the Jews. It would be like trying to talk Hitler out of hating the Jews.

Lebanon is responsible. At the very least they shouldn't accept Hezbolah. When they let them take part in the government, they become a terrorist state.

The Lebanese government DOES NOT have the power to kick Hezbollah out, as mucha s people might want. You NEED to understand the fact that Lebanon is and has been the playground for the major players in the ME for 20 some years, if I could I would reach through this screen and strangle you. You do not understand what is going on in Lebanon.

Lebanon is responsible. At the very least they shouldn't accept Hezbolah. When they let them take part in the government, they become a terrorist state.
Lebanon is not responsible. Let's try a thought experiment, what would happen if they demanded that Hezbolah leave? And then asked again? And again in a more firm voice? And sent some police to arrest them? :rolleyes:

They'd get wtfpwned.

You can't really blame them for not picking a fight they couldn't win.

Yes, I know the Lebanese dont want hezbollah.

Also, if they did that and killed 100,000 civilians the entire world would be on their backs, and even Bush would find it hard not to nuke them.
But, you just said Israel was targetting civilians, now you're saying they aren't. Please get your argument straight.

It is safe to say most Muslims want to destroy the Jews.
Is it safe to say most jews want to destroy the muslims?

Lebanon is not responsible. Let's try a thought experiment, what would happen if they demanded that Hezbolah leave? And then asked again? And again in a more firm voice? And sent some police to arrest them? :rolleyes:

They'd get wtfpwned.

You can't really blame them for not picking a fight they couldn't win.
If they asked Hezbolah to leave, then I wouldn't hold Lebanon responsible. Lebaonon hasn't done that. They have in fact done the opposite and embraced them. (I know that the Lebanese Christians are caught in the middle of this and don't want them there.)

Is it safe to say most jews want to destroy the muslims?
Only if it is needed to assure our survival. We have tried to coexist with them. Israel offered an olive branch in 1948 and got attacked in return.

Only if it is needed to assure our survival. We have tried to coexist with them. Israel offered an olive branch in 1948 and got attacked in return.
Its olive branch was popping into existence right amongst them with half the US post-WW2 army surplus. But at least you are honest about the genocidal attitude of your people. An irony I have always found most satisfyingly amusing.

If they asked Hezbolah to leave, then I wouldn't hold Lebanon responsible. Lebaonon hasn't done that. They have in fact done the opposite and embraced them. (I know that the Lebanese Christians are caught in the middle of this and don't want them there.)

I am Maronite Lebanese, I have two cousins who have spent time in Syrian jail cells for demonstrating in Beruits streets.

Lebanon can't ask Hezbollah to leave, Lebanese people can't even publically call Hezbollah a terror organization for fear of reprisals. Do you really expect Lebanon to stand up to Syria? A Hezbollah also backed by Iran?

Its olive branch was popping into existence right amongst them with half the US post-WW2 army surplus. But at least you are honest about the genocidal attitude of your people. An irony I have always found most satisfyingly amusing.
You don't know anything about history. They didn't get any arms from the US. Truman actually imposed an embargo of arms on both the Arabs and the Israelis. Israel fought the 1948 war with hand made Sten guns and a few guns they bought from the Czecks. They didn't even have tanks or artillery. (The Arab armies had much better arms including tanks, bombers, and artillery.)


THey lived side by side with the Arabs and were subjected to pogroms during the 20s and 30s led by the Grand Mufti. The Arabs were trying to eradicate the Jews who were living on purchased land long before Israel was formed.

I don't have a genocidal attitude. I was just pointing out that if it came to the point where the Arabs were invading Israel on all sides, Israel would then be forced to use its nukes. Israel would only use its nukes if it was being defeated. This is what has kept Arab armies from invading Israel over the past 33 years. I am saying that I wouldn't object to it if it meant the survival of the Jews. That is the only condition under which I would support such action.

Probably Hezballah. The new Lebanese government has ties to the US and other Western nations so it's likely that we've told them to stand down and wait until something can be worked out. Unfortunately, the situation is pretty much a proxy war between Israel and Syria on Lebanese soil.

Isn't it always the battle ground between Israel and Syria? Man it sucks to be Lebanon, the "No Man's Land" of the Middleastern wars.

Isn't it always the battle ground between Israel and Syria? Man it sucks to be Lebanon, the "No Man's Land" of the Middleastern wars.

Very True.


How many time can you ask Lebanon to rebuild itself?

Sorry but I do not enjoy war but I do consider it a fact of life.
You are the leader in this thread, defending Israeli actions tooth and nail. You have made blanket comments supporting Israel, even though innocent civilians are being slaughtered, and have been asked to support them. You either can't or haven't.

You should scrap those religious comments from your siggy because to me they appear meaningless in relation to your posts in this thread.

I am really get sick and tired of Iran, Isreal any country attacking Lebanon. I'm Lebanese. We did nothing wrong. They are attacking us all because we don't have that much wepones or soilders.

LEAVE LEBANON ALONE!!!!!! That's all I'm going to say. Lebanon is trying to live in peace. Once the attacks are done. There will be nothing left. My whole enitre family lives in Lebanon. And I hope they survive.

I am really get sick and tired of Iran, Isreal any country attacking Lebanon. I'm Lebanese. We did nothing wrong. They are attacking us all because we don't have that much wepones or soilders.

LEAVE LEBANON ALONE!!!!!! That's all I'm going to say. Lebanon is trying to live in peace. Once the attacks are done. There will be nothing left. My whole enitre family lives in Lebanon. And I hope they survive.
I agree...

They need to build a giant Bypass battlefield to go around Lebanon, for Israel and Syria to duke it out on. (They can make Hezballah live in the median.)

As you would know, Israel has been attacking lebanon. This is as a result of Hezbollah attacks.
I know that Hezbollah is fighting the Israelis, but does anyone know if Lebanon will mobilise its actual army?


if they wanted to actually use the army they have...why dont they round up the Hizbolla militia that is attacking other countries from their soil ?

or would the hizbolla that belong to their government not like it ?

As you would know, Israel has been attacking lebanon. This is as a result of Hezbollah attacks.
I know that Hezbollah is fighting the Israelis, but does anyone know if Lebanon will mobilise its actual army?


if they wanted to actually use the army they have...why dont they round up the Hizbolla militia that is attacking other countries from their soil ?

or would the hizbolla that belong to their government not like it ?

Will Lebanon use it's Army?

Yes. To clean up the rubble.

They wont do anything because they are pansies. Problem solved.

By israeli logic, it should just start nuking the middle east, barring itself. Terrorists could be anywhere, using any civilian good or area; civilian casualties are sad, but killing terrorists is obviously more important than anything else.

By israeli logic, it should just start nuking the middle east, barring itself. Terrorists could be anywhere, using any civilian good or area; civilian casualties are sad, but killing terrorists is obviously more important than anything else.

Fallout. Other than that....

What hes trying to say is Israel either thinks all Arabs are terrorists and should be nuked, or that it soesnt matter to Israel what the civilian casualties are as long as terrorists are dead.

and...

Get the FUCK out of Lebanon!!! Damn Terrorists!*


*damn terrorists meaning both the israeli army and hezbollah.

O_o i'm sorry I wus under the impression there were censors :p

Hezballah didn't to Lebanon a favour by being idiots. Israel has just destroyed the Lebanon economy in a few days.

You are the leader in this thread, defending Israeli actions tooth and nail. You have made blanket comments supporting Israel, even though innocent civilians are being slaughtered, and have been asked to support them. You either can't or haven't.

Welcome to war. Civilians die in war. To deny that they do is disingenious. I know that civilians die in conflicts and it hurts but that does not mean that Israel should stop fighting because of it. Besides, it could be far worse.

You should scrap those religious comments from your siggy because to me they appear meaningless in relation to your posts in this thread.

Sorry but I won't for I recognize the real world. I pray every night for peace around the world though I know it won't happen till the Lord Savior returns. War is a part of life and I have acknowledged it. Have you?

I am really get sick and tired of Iran, Isreal any country attacking Lebanon. I'm Lebanese. We did nothing wrong. They are attacking us all because we don't have that much wepones or soilders.

You have Hezbollah who is stronger than more Arab Armies. They run wild in South Lebanon and your government has done nothing to stop them. Not a single thing.

LEAVE LEBANON ALONE!!!!!! That's all I'm going to say. Lebanon is trying to live in peace. Once the attacks are done. There will be nothing left. My whole enitre family lives in Lebanon. And I hope they survive.

I hope they survive as well. My prayers are with you.

kinda hypocritical arent you corny?

kinda hypocritical arent you corny?

Nope. My prayers are with his friends and family in Lebanon but I do want to see Hezbollah get what is coming to them for their attacks on Israel.

Fallout. Other than that....

All it takes are nukes in Iran, a couple in syria, probably a few in egypt. I'm sure israel has weak enough nukes to not worry much about fall-out.

I suggest lebenon aquire an Army and gain controll of its country from the terrorist that are destroying it.

And Israel needs to back off and give them room to breath . Or ATTACK THE PUPPET MASTERS ..Syria and Iran .

Israel must carefully target ONLY Hizbolla in Lebanon..leave the damm common interest of the Lebanese people alone . Or do they think destabilizing the lebanese democracy will benifit them in any way ?

I understand. Sorry.

I understand. Sorry.

Not a problem :)

i would normally suport Israel, I support them as a country,but what they are doing in the gaza strip and lebanon is making them look like total arseholes. They got 2 soldiers taken and they decide to invade. Now they have 12 dead soldiers and 80 lebanese dead. As I said earlier, i normally support israel, but what they are doing now is just plain stupid!:mp5: :sniper:

But, If lebanon got an army to fight these guys it would just mean another civil war.

i would normally suport Israel, I support them as a country,but what they are doing in the gaza strip and lebanon is making them look like total arseholes. They got 2 soldiers taken and they decide to invade. Now they have 12 dead soldiers and 80 lebanese dead. As I said earlier, i normally support israel, but what they are doing now is just plain stupid!:mp5: :sniper:

Only thing stupid was the fact that Hamas used Gaza as a staging ground for their attacks against Israel after Israel pulled out and Hezbollah violating the territorial integrity of Israel in their cross border attack into Israel that started this whole affair. If anyone is to blame, its the terrorists for bringing about this destruction.

Hezbollahs pissed because israels occupying "southern lebannon"

Hezbollahs pissed because israels occupying "southern lebannon"

Check your facts. Israel hasn't sent any ground forces into Lebanon. There are no israeli soldiers in Lebanon.

Only thing stupid was the fact that Hamas used Gaza as a staging ground for their attacks against Israel after Israel pulled out and Hezbollah violating the territorial integrity of Israel in their cross border attack into Israel that started this whole affair. If anyone is to blame, its the terrorists for bringing about this destruction.
You do have a point.
*starts rendition of a random John Lennon song*