NationStates Jolt Archive

Assuming that the current situation in the middle east escalates, would any posters advocate western involvement, and, to what extent?

not really, it would just make thing worse

Let 'em fight it out, with some luck, they'll eradicate each other.

Assuming that the current situation in the middle east escalates, would any posters advocate western involvement, and, to what extent?


Only as a show of support for Israel . The idiots who would like to start global jihad would LOVE to see a western nation come to the aid of Israel...why else use there puppets up like this to attack them ?
why do you think NO peace will ever exist there . its agianst the will of the global jihhadist .

either we unite against terrorism and support Israel and condemn the states that are sponsoring the attacks ..or get used to 200.00 a barrel oil and a ruined global economy and a war that will make all others look like a bar fight .

I'd leave them to it. Definitely do not support Israel.

Support Israel all the way. I'd rather Israel kick jihadist ass than let the tits get away with all their gayness much longer

I support Israel, I believe the palestinians should have their own state, and Israel withdrew from Gaza and was prepared to withdraw from most of the rest of Palestine. So, the palestinians elected a terrorist organization to power, built up their arsenal, and launched a thousand rockets, suicide bomber, and proceed to dig a tunnel into Israel proper and attack a military outpost killing several soldiers and capturing another. That, by the way, is a full blown act of war to which most countries would start shooting back for (which is what they did). Hezbollah decided to go ahead and attack Israel, for whatever genius reason they had, and now Lebanon is getting hit, and its only going to get worse. Lebanon deserves it - they have allowed Hezbollah free reign, and now they're bitching because Israel is defending itself (and not even pre-emptively). Therefore, I fully support Israel, though I don't think the west should get involved that would just completely screw over everything and Israel is more than capable of handling itself anyways. Now, if Syria and Iran and others were drawn into the conflict and a full blown war in which Israel had the possibility of losing, then I would support westerners (thought not countries themselves) to go in and help fight alongside the Israelis, in fact, I would probably fly over and offer to fight for the IDF for the duration of the war to help defend Israel. Now, were Israel on the verge of being overrun, then and only then should the west get involved to protect it. Why? Well, think of what will happen to the millions and millions of innocent Israeli men, women, and children when bloodthirsy extremists who's goal is Israel's annihalation seize control...a second holocaust anyone? Only this time to its full completion, because it wouldn't surprise me if they tried to butcher every last Israeli if they had the chance.

Support Israel all the way. I'd rather Israel kick jihadist ass than let the tits get away with all their gayness much longer
I don't think those tits agree with gayness. In fact their extremist stance on gayness is one of their bad features. They're intolerant tits. As far as tits go they're like the misshapen, pancake-flat saggy ones with the nipples that point straight down.

Assuming that the current situation in the middle east escalates, would any posters advocate western involvement, and, to what extent?
Arm them all, that's what I say. If they're all going to be dumbasses, we might as well milk them for all they're worth.

well, things are escalating very fast, I don't know if the world can watch two forces destroy each other, the U.S. will probably step in somehow

I don't know if the world can watch two forces destroy each other
Internet connection - check.

Guardian - check.

Popcorn - check.

Game on.

I say look farther to the East, where tensions are brewing in Indonesia and India, the second fastest industrializing nation to China. If someone were to move the largely Hindu and thus peaceful population of India to war there would be much harder felt consequences than any Middle Eastern confrontation.

Internet connection - check.

Guardian - check.

Popcorn - check.

Game on.

thank you WORLD for responding so fast

there is already serious talk of EU sanctions against Israel if the civilain death toll keeps climbing.

We inserted a 'human rights' clause into the last trade deal and it covers this sort of bully boy yahooism.

we dont but their guns, well thats all they produce really, and they cant buy all the goods and foodstuffs they like off us. might concentrate their minds to behave like the civilised nation they claim to be

Arm them all, that's what I say. If they're all going to be dumbasses, we might as well milk them for all they're worth.Heh, that's the best idea I've heard in a long time.

Tactical Grace, you're a Guardian Reader?

...well bugger that

Tactical Grace, you're a Guardian Reader?

...well bugger that
Yes, I am. And I read the Observer. And occasionally, the Times or Independent. :)

But never the Telegraph, Mail or Express. And the Sun, Mirror and their ilk can go and [censored] :mad:

we dont but their guns, well thats all they produce really, and they cant buy all the goods and foodstuffs they like off us. might concentrate their minds to behave like the civilised nation they claim to be

Produce guns? When the hell did Israel's major export become guns? Israel's exports are generally in the information/technology and academic sphere, plus all the various bits of agricultural produce - Israel is a hotbed of niche markets, as they cater for worldwide kosher product production, hippy hiking sandals, vegetarian food that doesn't taste like shit and outrageously over-the-top gay men. Guns tend to be bought in or kept in

there is already serious talk of EU sanctions against Israel if the civilain death toll keeps climbing.

We inserted a 'human rights' clause into the last trade deal and it covers this sort of bully boy yahooism.

we dont but their guns, well thats all they produce really, and they cant buy all the goods and foodstuffs they like off us. might concentrate their minds to behave like the civilised nation they claim to be

sweet, dude, and btw, why don't you also sell some more of your soul to the muslim jihad.
Damn, you people don't ever cease to amaze me...
Were going in a fucking war after one of the biggest cities of our state as bombed today (Haifa) and now you're talking about keeping it civilised.
well, no can do, you can keep your shit to yourself and continue acting like the sissies you are in the hope that your growing, angry minority of middle-eastern origin will not bomb your ass from within.
remembering the riots there were in franc elast year, I so wish that they will - so you frigging remember who WE'RE dealing with every single day.

Yes, I am. And I read the Observer. And occasionally, the Times or Independent. :)

But never the Telegraph, Mail or Express. And the Sun, Mirror and their ilk can go and [censored] :mad:

Good man :)

I've given up reading papers, most of it's rubbish anyway - celebrities and haristyles and international news and politics and..oh, wait a minute...

I tried to get Private Eye when I was abroad and then realised it was pointless as I'd missed the elctions and everything and had no idea who Cameron even was...I still suspect he's actually a cardboard cut-out with someone moving the arms

you dont read the express or the mail (you mug) socialist/liberal alert

the state of palestine was established after the first world war

Why do "palestinians" feel so strongly about it given that israel is something like 15 percent of the former state of palestine much of which is now jordan (i think)

even so there are 50 odd arab/muslim countires palestinians could go to as all muslims claim they are primarily muslim

Maybe its because they all hate jews and look for conflict where ever they can find it much like the rest of the Muslim world

GO ISRAEL if anything they should be more aggressive and stop trying to get muslims to love them and treat them ritefully as eternal enemies

sweet, dude, and btw, why don't you also sell some more of your soul to the muslim jihad.
Damn, you people don't ever cease to amaze me...
Were going in a fucking war after one of the biggest cities of our state as bombed today (Haifa) and now you're talking about keeping it civilised.
well, no can do, you can keep your shit to yourself and continue acting like the sissies you are in the hope that your growing, angry minority of middle-eastern origin will not bomb your ass from within.
remembering the riots there were in franc elast year, I so wish that they will - so you frigging remember who WE'RE dealing with every single day.

noone is denying your right to fight back. but that sort of talk proves you have the bloodlust and need to be reigned in. too many civilians have died (10 kids in one missile attack for fucks sake) and attacking the lebanese basic infrastructure for the actions of terrorists in unacceptable, and if you want to be part of the worlds civilised club of nations, behave accordingly.

its nothing to do with being sissies, its to do with basic levels of human decency. the IDF disgraced your nation today

objecting to collective punishment and lots of dead children does not mean we side with the terrorists, it means we object to collective punishment and dead children. you will be treated like Hamas and boycotted until you stop behaving like them

I don't think Israel really exports any sort of defence products...though come to think of it, they should. In fact, I think Canada should invest in some Merkavas, those are some damn fine tanks. In fact, I think I'm going to write my MP about that...

Israel is behaving civilized, they have yet to deliberately target civilians (enemy leaders who happen to have their families with them when they get bombed are legit targets), every 'civilized' country bombs civilians in wars. Why? Because civilian targets (strategic transit passages, airports, bridges, factories etc etc) are civilian targets because they have civilians around them but are still militarily important. While it is unfortunate said civilians have to die, its a fact of life and a fact of war. Were Canada assaulted in such a way, I would expect nothing less than what Israel's response was.

Israel is behaving civilized, they have yet to deliberately target civilians (enemy leaders who happen to have their families with them when they get bombed are legit targets), every 'civilized' country bombs civilians in wars. Why? Because civilian targets (strategic transit passages, airports, bridges, factories etc etc) are civilian targets because they have civilians around them but are still militarily important. While it is unfortunatey said civilians have to die, its a fact of life and a fact of war. Were Canada assaulted in such a way, I would expect nothing less than what Israel's response was.

you bomb a family home, you are deliberately targeting civilians. no amount of word play or semantics will change this fact. Whats the moral difference between dropping bomb onto a house you know contains children and stepping onto a bus with a suicide belt? none. its calculated murder designed to pressure/terrorise and enough is enough.

they want to behave like Hamas, they can be treated diplomatically like them too.

And who knows that these guys are actually enemy leaders?

noone is denying your right to fight back. but that sort of talk proves you have the bloodlust and need to be reigned in. too many civilians have died (10 kids in one missile attack for fucks sake) and attacking the lebanese basic infrastructure for the actions of terrorists in unacceptable, and if you want to be part of the worlds civilised club of nations, behave accordingly.

its nothing to do with being sissies, its to do with basic levels of human decency. the IDF disgraced your nation today

objecting to collective punishment and lots of dead children does not mean we side with the terrorists, it means we object to collective punishment and dead children. you will be treated like Hamas and boycotted until you stop behaving like them

We don't need to be reigned and the nations with the worlds greates history of murder and bloodlust that, coincidently, reside in europe, have no right to even consider reigning a sovereign nation while it's defending it's basic rights.
And about civilian counts, more than one hundred people were injured today by the bombings made from the area of another sovereign nation.
this is a direct and simple declaration of war. those are not just terroists - this is a nation, and they will be fought with.
the IDF is not only our nations biggest pride, it is also the last defense of your sorry asses, because if they're done with us - you're next!
You side with terrorists because you like Iranian oil, and you like to keep your minorities from burning your streets and because 60 years after the holocaust you're still willing to stand and watch the people of israel being murdered and not raise a finger to help.

Assuming that the current situation in the middle east escalates, would any posters advocate western involvement, and, to what extent?
If it stays roughly as it has done then I don't think any western powers need to get involved (maybe they could become less involved and stop selling arms to Israel...). If it does escalate, I would reluctantly support Israel, as I feel that would be the quickest way to stability in the region. No Arab state would ever truly defeat Israel in a conflict, because of the support Israel receives from the west.

I will, of course, be supporting Israel but here is my plan for alot more victory, and alot less causalties.

Assasinations, anyone? Seriously...why dont we just snipe/sneakily kill people who are spearheading opposition movements in the middle east. People like Irans President can easily die of some bad food, or the militants in gaza wanna act up? Lets just aim a laser guided missile at their government assembly building. No need for infantry, hell those are only needed in all out war. We can take this war...behind enemy lines...into the leaders houses, into their bedrooms and kitchens if need be.

We don't need to be reigned and the nations with the worlds greates history of murder and bloodlust that, coincidently, reside in europe, have no right to even consider reigning a sovereign nation while it's defending it's basic rights.
And about civilian counts, more than one hundred people were injured today by the bombings made from the area of another sovereign nation.
this is a direct and simple declaration of war. those are not just terroists - this is a nation, and they will be fought with.
the IDF is not only our nations biggest pride, it is also the last defense of your sorry asses, because if they're done with us - you're next!
You side with terrorists because you like Iranian oil, and you like to keep your minorities from burning your streets and because 60 years after the holocaust you're still willing to stand and watch the people of israel being murdered and not raise a finger to help.

that post is a disgrace. because i object to the scale and ferocity of the IDF respose to an attack on military personnell engaged in warlike acts i am both siding with the terrorists and an anti-semite.

grow up and debate rationally without resorting to intellectual vandalism to try and defend the moral bankruptcy that is Israel on this day.

Lets just aim a laser guided missile at their government assembly building. No need for infantry, hell those are only needed in all out war. We can take this war...behind enemy lines...into the leaders houses, into their bedrooms and kitchens if need be.

is that not exactly what Israel is doing right now?

And in the bedrooms next door.... 10 children!!

remembering the riots there were in franc elast year, I so wish that they will - so you frigging remember who WE'RE dealing with every single day.

The people you occupy?

You should see the latest ground-air missile, now those are good stuff!

Ok, little history to fill people in - After the WW1, Palestine was defined as a country for the first time in many many centuries - it had up until that time been part of the then fading Otoman Empire and was just considered part of Syria. Don't look so surprised, Israel's about the size of Wales, and it was all fucking desert and malaria swamps, nasty bloody place, just ask Mark Twain. There were indigenous Arab villages, Beduoins who roamed from desert place to desert place, a handful of Christians and a growing number of Jews, (Many of the arabs came over 200 years previously after troubles in Saudi Arabia, and most of the Jews at that time came from Russia - a very few had been there 500 years, but that's another story and involves a false messiah :D)

After WW1 it was a part of the British Empire. Don't get me started on the British Empire, and don't mention Northern Ireland, Kashmir, Cypress or any other former colony that is now a major hotbed of internal stife. It's not worth it. Zionism is primarily a nationalist movement - in response, and also in response to global political trends, a very strong Arab nationalist movement grew, and violent attacks occured frequently. The Brithish were not very good at handling this situation, and in the end decided to call them all 'bloody stupic little foreigners' and hung a lot of them from both sides. *Sigh* etc etc, this goes on for a very long time, nevermind.

I don't really like these kind of debates in any case, as no one who knows anything about the situation is here to listen or to change their minds, merely to convert the undecided to their side. It gets cynical and political (in the negative sense)

In other news, is anyone else not happy with the title of this thread? 'Semitic war'? This means 'Jewish War', and I for one am not in on this war? Why was I left out? I'm a Jew - I have yet to be called up...oh, or does the author mean 'ISRAELI War'? Why, is this being waged against Muslims, or just against Arabs? Should I knock on my neigbor's door and challenge him to a pillow fight?

Actually, that'd be quite fun...

is that not exactly what Israel is doing right now?

And in the bedrooms next door.... 10 children!!
...not exactly. We have killed Irans President...Israel needs to perform like they did in Operation Wrath of God. Terrorists only recognize superior power...and only that, do they understand and fear.

If you had the ability to prevent a war from happening, by killing a major leader in the movement with a missile strike at his house, but 10 kids where in it, would you not do it?

The people you occupy?
Who is France occupying?

The people you occupy?

You don't occupy people, darling, you occupy land, or toilet stalls.

Who is France occupying?

O...Humour.

Hes not French, just in case.

Internet connection - check.

Guardian - check.

Popcorn - check.

Game on.

LOL Grace. I'm with ya. LOL

...not exactly. We have killed Irans President...Israel needs to perform like they did in Operation Wrath of God. Terrorists only recognize superior power...and only that, do they understand and fear.

If you had the ability to prevent a war from happening, by killing a major leader in the movement with a missile strike at his house, but 10 kids where in it, would you not do it?

thats irrelvant to the issue in hand, the actual 10 dead children, and the 7 in Gaza in an attack that missed the intended target.

and you have a bizarre notion of what a terrorist is and what motivates them.

O...Humour.

Hes not French, just in case.
Misunderstood his post, nevermind.

thats irrelvant to the issue in hand, the actual 10 dead children, and the 7 in Gaza that in an attack that missed the intended target. can the palestinains kill Israeli military and political types to stop a war too?

and you have a bizarre notion of what a terrorist is and what motivates them.

Yes, but the point is attack first so they arnt able to.

Heh, that's the best idea I've heard in a long time.

Actually, this is an amazingly good tactic (supplying both sides) for bankrupting two powers at once thus eliminating both of them as a threat in the future for at least a generation or two. Then if they decimate each other, you roll in and make a land grab. I use it on CIV IV all the time. I suspect the CIA thought of it before we did.

and you have a bizarre notion of what a terrorist is and what motivates them.

please, enlighten us all on what motivates terrorists

Yes, but the point is attack first so they arnt able to.

did they? one side says they did it first blah blah blah. they are as bad as each other with the victimhood, but only one side tries to prentend they are westernised democratic types who play fair. and sometimes they have to be reminded of the rules of the civilised world.

I think some people are missing the point...yes Israelis kill civilians as either collateral damage or by accidental misses. It is unfortunate, yet Israel is providing (gaza at least) food, water, fuel and medical supplies to ensure that people don't start starving to death etc etc. Also, while Israel kills civilians, it does so accidentally, not deliberately. Jihadists (I'll start using this term rather than terrorist since terrorist is an innacurate moniker) are a bunch of bloodthiry maniacs who had their own country and continued to attack Israel and they DELIBERATELY target civilians with rockets and suicide bombings. Hell, they blow up their own people (or did everyone miss the stories about them filling kids' backpacks with explosives and having them walk up to israeli checkpoints?)

Actually, this is an amazingly good tactic (supplying both sides) for bankrupting two powers at once thus eliminating both of them as a threat in the future for at least a generation or two. Then if they decimate each other, you roll in and make a land grab. I use it on CIV IV all the time. I suspect the CIA thought of it before we did.
Oh I love CIV IV

please, enlighten us all on what motivates terrorists

not "superior power" thats for sure.

percieved injustice and an inablilty to fight it through conventional means might be a bit more like it.

Assuming that the current situation in the middle east escalates, would any posters advocate western involvement, and, to what extent?
The more we can stay out of it, the better off everyone will be.

did they? one side says they did it first blah blah blah. they are as bad as each other with the victimhood, but only one side tries to prentend they are westernised democratic types who play fair. and sometimes they have to be reminded of the rules of the civilised world.
No, fuck that.

Look....you can talk all about the rules of the civilised world that Germany, America, Australia follows...but none of those are located in the cesspool wel like to call the Middle East, are they?

Israel must act like a bad ass and uncivilised at times, because they second they dont and let their guard down....Jihadists on camels come and take over the country. Israel must remain strong or else it dies. The phrase "Peace through superior firepower" is literally MADE for the middle east.

I think some people are missing the point...yes Israelis kill civilians as either collateral damage or by accidental misses. It is unfortunate, yet Israel is providing (gaza at least) food, water, fuel and medical supplies to ensure that people don't start starving to death etc etc. Also, while Israel kills civilians, it does so accidentally, not deliberately. Jihadists (I'll start using this term rather than terrorist since terrorist is an innacurate moniker) are a bunch of bloodthiry maniacs who had their own country and continued to attack Israel and they DELIBERATELY target civilians with rockets and suicide bombings. Hell, they blow up their own people (or did everyone miss the stories about them filling kids' backpacks with explosives and having them walk up to israeli checkpoints?)

bullshit, they were family homes in residential areas at night.

no-one is denying the rest, but we have no political or commercial relationship with the other side to pressure them to behave.

The more we can stay out of it, the better off everyone will be.
Is that so?

No, fuck that.

Look....you can talk all about the rules of the civilised world that Germany, America, Australia follows...but none of those are located in the cesspool wel like to call the Middle East, are they?

Israel must act like a bad ass and uncivilised at times, because they second they dont and let their guard down....Jihadists on camels come and take over the country. Israel must remain strong or else it dies. The phrase "Peace through superior firepower" is literally MADE for the middle east.

the sorry racist truth emerges.

there is a difference between remaining strong and killing children

not "superior power" thats for sure.

percieved injustice and an inablilty to fight it through conventional means might be a bit more like it.

the implication was not that terrorism is a way of gaining superior power, but rather that taking a strong line si the only way to deter terrorism - appeasment with land only leads to increased attacks and giving in to hostage-takers' demands only leads to more hostages being taken. Well, that didn't work, more hostages were taken in any case, but this time by Hezbollah. The problem is, very littler works on either side in this situation.

And before anyone says that the Palestinians resort to terrorism because they are desperate, terrorism is NOT an act of despair or desperation. Desperate people steal, rob, rape, even kill themselves or murder and generally undermine the foundations of 'society'. Terrorism is a political act, meant to produce terror.

The people you occupy?
I think you need a little history lesson.

After WWII, the British Mandate of Palestine was divided into 2 states: Israel and Palestine, for Jews and Arabs respectively. The Palestinians didn't think this was good enough, and attacked Israel (with the aid of Egypt and other Arab countries). Israel kicked their ass and pushed them back, taking their territory.

I have a little story that should shed light on the issue.

Little Billy one day found $15 on the road. He took it to his 2 friends, Jordan and Matt, and told them they could each have $5. Jordan happily agreed, but Matt said "No. I want the whole $10". Given his greedy attitute, Billy decided to give Jordan the whole $10. Matt then got angry and started punching Jordan saying "hey I have the right to that money".

This story (to me at least; and yes I made it up), sums up, in simpler terms, the Israel-Palestine conflict. Palestine had a chance for something (in the story, $5), but wasn't happy and demanded more (in the real world, it's all of Israel's territory), and they lost what they had. There have been many chances since 1948 for the Palestinians to have their own state, any EVERY TIME, they have essencially refused, either by terrorist action ruining the talks, or by flat out refusing. Because of this, they no longer have any say in the matter. Go Israel.

the sorry racist truth emerges.

there is a difference between remaining strong and killing children

Uh..how is that racist?

They are Jihadists....and they want to take over the country....people in that area do ride camels...ALOT. I saw them when I was over there with my own two eyes.

Anyway, way to ignore the main part of my post and just pic shit out.

I think you need a little history lesson.

After WWII, the British Mandate of Palestine was divided into 2 states: Israel and Palestine, for Jews and Arabs respectively. The Palestinians didn't think this was good enough, and attacked Israel (with the aid of Egypt and other Arab countries). Israel kicked their ass and pushed them back, taking their territory.

I have a little story that should shed light on the issue.

Little Billy one day found $15 on the road. He took it to his 2 friends, Jordan and Matt, and told them they could each have $5. Jordan happily agreed, but Matt said "No. I want the whole $10". Given his greedy attitute, Billy decided to give Jordan the whole $10. Matt then got angry and started punching Jordan saying "hey I have the right to that money".

This story (to me at least; and yes I made it up), sums up, in simpler terms, the Israel-Palestine conflict. Palestine had a chance for something (in the story, $5), but wasn't happy and demanded more (in the real world, it's all of Israel's territory), and they lost what they had. There have been many chances since 1948 for the Palestinians to have their own state, any EVERY TIME, they have essencially refused, either by terrorist action ruining the talks, or by flat out refusing. Because of this, they no longer have any say in the matter. Go Israel.


what happens to your little tale if matt actually owned the $15 in the first place?

the sorry racist truth emerges.

there is a difference between remaining strong and killing children

All those bloody camels!!! They come over here, stealing our jobs!

...camels is racist? Against Egyptians? Against Bedouins? Bedouins are the only ones who still use camels, no-one else does..everyone inthe middle east used to ride camels or donkeys, now no-one does. Hump.

what happens to your little tale if matt actually owned the $15 in the first place?
He didn't. Britain did. I don't care about the "imperialism sux0rz" stuff, the fact is at the time it was the BRITISH Mandate of Palestine.

Is that so?
Uh ... yes. :)

Uh..how is that racist?

They are Jihadists....and they want to take over the country....people in that area do ride camels...ALOT. I saw them when I was over there with my own two eyes.

Anyway, way to ignore the main part of my post and just pic shit out.

'Jihadists' make up part of the Palestinian resitance. Not even the majority. The implication of the camel line is that the locals are somehow inferior to the israelis. Its like calling them sandniggers and well you know it.

And the way they see it they are trying to take BACK their country.

how does this link into the war crimes being perpitrated at this moment in time?

what happens to your little tale if matt actually owned the $15 in the first place?

Matt never owned it, did you not read history lesson number one? Matt was a subject of the Otoman empire and had no claim over his land. Land ownership by the people and nationalism, including political borders is a very new phenomenon

He didn't. Britain did. I don't care about the "imperialism sux0rz" stuff, the fact is at the time it was the BRITISH Mandate of Palestine.

was it the brits to 'give away' in the first place?

And the way they see it they are trying to take BACK their country.
Oh yea, and I forgot to mention: at the time of the partition, Palestine was larger than Israel in terms of area.

I once again state: they had their chance then, and they have many times. They wern't happy with what they had, so they lost it. It's too bad for them.

was it the brits to 'give away' in the first place?

Yes, they took it off the Otomans, who owned it ALL beforehand, and were shoddy at managing it, there was never a 'Palestinian Land' as it was all considered Syria and the people who lived there were just regular people who happened to live in that area. It was the British who re-named it 'Palestine' which was the Roman name for it after the expulsion of the Jews.

Oh yea, and I forgot to mention: at the time of the partition, Palestine was larger than Israel in terms of area.

I once again state: they had their chance then, and they have many times. They wern't happy with what they had, so they lost it. It's too bad for them.

i steal 15 bucks off you and give it to a mate. he offers you ten back to stop bugging him. you say no, its my 15. he punches you in the head and says the offer is now 5.

and then my mate has the brass neck to object to being called a thief?

what happens to your little tale if matt actually owned the $15 in the first place?

I hate to tell you this, but the land Isreal is on now is the same land they controlled back in biblical times, they were taken over several times through out history and eventually got their land back (in 1948). Palestine however NEVER was a state, they were always nomadic people and settled in modern Isreal for a short time before moving on thousands of years ago, I do not see how that intitles them to a state at all, let alone one already under the control of the Isralies, so the $15 you speak of, never was matt's so it doesnt really matter, that is just another trip down alternative history lane.

Yes, they took it off the Otomans, who owned it ALL beforehand, and were shoddy at managing it, there was never a 'Palestinian Land' as it was all considered Syria and the people who lived there were just regular people who happened to live in that area. It was the British who re-named it 'Palestine' which was the Roman name for it after the expulsion of the Jews.

so being 'shoddy at managing land' justifies theft? that sort of bullshit want tolerated in South Africa, and i fail to see why we should put up with it now

and what about the micro level. people whose grandfathers farms were stolen by goons with guns?

The SR: OK, look, the whole area was not full of Palestinians, it was full of Arabs...who all rode camels YES, CAMELS! We all rode camels, all day, and got sore bums. Please leave Matt and Billy alone, they're only going to spend the money on drugs and booze

I hate to tell you this, but the land Isreal is on now is the same land they controlled back in biblical times, they were taken over several times through out history and eventually got their land back (in 1948). Palestine however NEVER was a state, they were always nomadic people and settled in modern Isreal for a short time before moving on thousands of years ago, I do not see how that intitles them to a state at all, let alone one already under the control of the Isralies, so the $15 you speak of, never was matt's so it doesnt really matter, that is just another trip down alternative history lane.

Israel never was a state either. so why the preferentrial treatment?

How can the line 'the Palestians lost the land, tough' be used but the same logic doesnt apply to the the Jews?

I'm a Celt. My ancestors originally came from the south of France. Am I entitled to a pad in Monaco for free? Am I fuck.

The SR: OK, look, the whole area was not full of Palestinians, it was full of Arabs...who all rode camels YES, CAMELS! We all rode camels, all day, and got sore bums. Please leave Matt and Billy alone, they're only going to spend the money on drugs and booze

only if they pass the dutchie to ahmed and give mohammed a can :p

so being 'shoddy at managing land' justifies theft? that sort of bullshit want tolerated in South Africa, and i fail to see why we should put up with it now

and what about the micro level. people whose grandfathers farms were stolen by goons with guns?

I never said that 'being shoddy at managing land' was the justification for takingt he land. That was a small matter of the Otoman empire being defeated after WW1 and all the land got carved up between nations with empires. Britain had an Empire and the grabbed a fuckload of land, I never said it was good, it was what they did. Don't argue with me about the British Empire, you're flailing and getting sidetracked. Are you now telling the British off for stealing 'Palestinian' land? Think before you type!

Micro level? Goons with guns, what do you think this is, the wild west? There were no goons with guns, you've added that in for effect. Many arabs ran after 1948 because they were told by the Jordanians the Israelis would massacre them, no one came knocking on doors.

Israel never was a state either. so why the preferentrial treatment?

How can the line 'the Palestians lost the land, tough' be used but the same logic doesnt apply to the the Jews?

I'm a Celt. My ancestors originally came from the south of France. Am I entitled to a pad in Monaco for free? Am I fuck.

Israel was declared a state after there was a WAR OF INDEPENDENCE. If you have problems with wars of independence, go talk to the Americans or the French.

so being 'shoddy at managing land' justifies theft? that sort of bullshit want tolerated in South Africa, and i fail to see why we should put up with it now

and what about the micro level. people whose grandfathers farms were stolen by goons with guns?

Israel never took the land. Britain did. They gave it to Israel. It was called the British Mandate; ever heard of it? Those were all territories of the UK at the time. They gave their own terrirtory (and, no, the Israelis didn't have an option to say, "No, we don't want this piece of land; give us something else."), and, in fact, the creation of Israel was the first act of the newly formed United Nations. By the way, the piece of land that Israel originally was was nothing but a worthless tiny sliver of desert that was far from Jerusalem. That city was divided into, as I recall, three pieces. Israel got one of the slummy bits far from their ancient and holy sites. Incidentally, the Palestinians were also offered a their own country at the same time (They got the land with water.), but the southern portions were claimed and occupied (and eventually annexed) by Egypt, the northern parts by Assyria, and the entire East and all other remaining pieces were take by Jordan. Those three countries also tried to take Israel, but, despite the fact that the British blocked them from getting weapons, they fought back. That's why Israel still exists and Palestine, up until recently, didn't.

*sniffs*...I miss my camel :(

I never said that 'being shoddy at managing land' was the justification for takingt he land. That was a small matter of the Otoman empire being defeated after WW1 and all the land got carved up between nations with empires. Britain had an Empire and the grabbed a fuckload of land, I never said it was good, it was what they did. Don't argue with me about the British Empire, you're flailing and getting sidetracked. Are you now telling the British off for stealing 'Palestinian' land? Think before you type!

yes. im opposed to all forms of imperialism. and you are contradicting yourself. the british were or werent entitled to take the land and pass it on?


Micro level? Goons with guns, what do you think this is, the wild west? There were no goons with guns, you've added that in for effect. Many arabs ran after 1948 because they were told by the Jordanians the Israelis would massacre them, no one came knocking on doors.

so no-one was forced off their land? no-one at all? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Arab-Israeli_war)

Israel was declared a state after there was a WAR OF INDEPENDENCE. If you have problems with wars of independence, go talk to the Americans or the French.

are the Palestinians entitled to one too?

I personally don't think they had any particular rights to take over the land, but then international laws didn't exist as they did today, and that's what Empires did. They did not, however, take it directly fromthe people, but from the Empire that was already holding it when it collapsed. The British Empire fucked up a great deal of the world and many major political troublespots are linked to former empires. This is beside the point. Go and tell the British off in your own spare time, this is a debate about Israel.

I'm sure some people were forced off their land, but that is not on whole how the entire operation was carried out. Israeli was, and still is, very sparsely populated - they only have a population of roughly 6 million, it's not like they need 'living room', and it's not like there were good areas that were being settled that the Israelis wanted. The whole ideology was not 'go and get good bits of land regardless of who has them' but rather 'let's make the dessert bloom'. Hence kibbutzim etc.

are the Palestinians entitled to one too?

You seem to miss the point. They were involved in the first one - it was them against the Israelis, and the Israelis won. They were offered a split homeland by the British and the UN - the Israelis agreed to it, the Paelstinians said no way,a nd so the British buggered off and left the two sides to kill each other

the result was not as they had expected

Well, whatever your answer is, I'm going to bed. Goodnight!

...the camels drank my milk...I'm going to go hide the cookies

so no-one was forced off their land? no-one at all?[/URL]

Actually, like most of Wikipedia, that article is wrong. The list of Jewish villages are by far incomplete. Additionally, the Israelis never forced the PAlistinians of their land. They left (actually fled), because Syria, Jordan, and Egypt invaded. Not Israel. Israel was at that point trying to defend its villiages against the aforementioned attack. Additionally, you failed to mention how many Jewish villiages from the surrounding middle-eastern countries were abandoned as a result of actualy government "pruging" there.