NationStates Jolt Archive

Lets try and keep this one on topic, lets discuss the military action and its conseqences, both human and political, not the concept of the state of Israel or how what you think of Arabs. And not even whether its acceptible for militias/terror groups to capture regular soldiers engaged in hostilities.

At the moment there are over 100 confirmed civilain deaths and 14 IDF and 1 Lebanese Army fatalities.

Surely the human cost of this, even to the IDF itself (14 dead trying to pressure the captures of 3 soldiers) means this type of response is madness from Ohlmert? Is this soely to flex his muscles in Isreal because he isnt seen as a 'hard man' like Sharon was? Is it an attempt to provoke an intifada? Or do they really believe an armour assault is the best method of securing these guys release?

28 civilian deaths in the Lebanon, including 10 children in the same house (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=114044)

A family including 7 children killed here whilt the 'target' was missed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5171148.stm)

The EU finally say enough is enough (http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/07/13/ap2876885.html)

The idea isn't just to save the lives of the kidnapped soldiers, but to show Lebanon that there's a price to be paid for allowing armed Hezbollah militias to launch attacks across the border at Israel. In 2004 the UN told Lebanon to disarm those militias. Lebanon didn't do it. Now they face the consequences of their inaction.

I beat you by 6 whole minutes.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=491654

The idea isn't just to save the lives of the kidnapped soldiers, but to show Lebanon that there's a price to be paid for allowing armed Hezbollah militias to launch attacks across the border at Israel. In 2004 the UN told Lebanon to disarm those militias. Lebanon didn't do it. Now they face the consequences of their inaction.

The consiquences should have been UN Sanctions first. Military action should have been a last resort if that failed.

The consiquences should have been UN Sanctions first. Military action should have been a last resort if that failed.
Israel didn't start the military action, the armed Hezbollah militias did. When attacked a nation has the option of defending itself.

Israel didn't start the military action, the armed Hezbollah militias did. When attacked a nation has the option of defending itself.
Then Lebanon's state military has the option of assaulting Israeli troops and Israel with whatever means are open to them.

Israel didn't start the military action, the armed Hezbollah militias did. When attacked a nation has the option of defending itself.

thats a given, but is this action not a bit too OTT to be classed as defensive? is bombing the family homes of hizbolla and hamas men wtith their families in them a strategy too far? again, there are 14 dead IDF troops trying to save 3.

why did Israel not decide to deal with Hizbolla before?

The consiquences should have been UN Sanctions first. Military action should have been a last resort if that failed.
There has been some sort of UN involvement in the Middle East ever since I can remember. What good has it ever done? The only policy that has _ever_ worked in the Middle East is to have superior firepower. Which is exactly the policy that is now being executed.

I highly doubt that the kidnapped soldiers will ever be recovered alive, but I don't think that this military action has affected that outcome at all. The best thing that can come out of this is that the Hezbollah militia can no longer find safe refuge in Lebanon.

Then Lebanon's state military has the option of assaulting Israeli troops and Israel with whatever means are open to them.
Yeah, it's war.

thats a given, but is this action not a bit too OTT to be classed as defensive? is bombing the family homes of hizbolla and hamas men wtith their families in them a strategy too far? again, there are 14 dead IDF troops trying to save 3.

why did Israel not decide to deal with Hizbolla before?
You don't deal with an organization that wants only to kill you.

Then Lebanon's state military has the option of assaulting Israeli troops and Israel with whatever means are open to them.
That's absolutely correct, but then they must bear the responsiblity for their actions. The correct course of action should have been to refuse safe haven to a terrorist group.

Hey, if we're really lucky, Syria and Iran will join in the cluster-fuck, the US will get involved on behalf of its ally, and we'll have a good old fashioned general war in the middle east.

this confilcit in isreal is alot like the maquis cardassain confilt the dominion took over cardassa

You don't deal with an organization that wants only to kill you.

deal with in the sense of the way its dealing with them now.

and who is doing the killing at the moment?

here are 14 dead IDF troops trying to save 3.

Ever seen the movie Saving Private Ryan?

Hey, if we're really lucky, Syria and Iran will join in the cluster-fuck, the US will get involved on behalf of its ally, and we'll have a good old fashioned general war in the middle east.
Let's throw in Russia and China too against Israel and the Israelphile US for good measure.

deal with in the sense of the way its dealing with them now.

and who is doing the killing at the moment?
The good guys.

Let's throw in Russia and China too against Israel and the Israelphile US for good measure.
Russia could project it's power into the region, but the PRC wouldn't be able to do anything at all. Unless it became a World War, with the conflict rapidly spreading to the Pacific region. God, that would be really awesome.

Russia could project it's power into the region, but the PRC wouldn't be able to do anything at all. Unless it became a World War, with the conflict rapidly spreading to the Pacific region. God, that would be really awesome.
If by awesome you mean fuck everyone up the ass, yes.

The good guys.

its exactly this kind of invective i want the thread to avoid.

If by awesome you mean fuck everyone up the ass, yes.
I didn't think I needed to put the brackets on either end of my statement.

-snip-

The good guys.
You mean the guys that invaded, blockaded, and bombed a sovereign nation and in doing so have killed hundreds of civilions and [b]a dozen of their own soldiers to retrieve two or three kidnapped soldiers from a guerilla organization?
If they are the "good guys," we must live in one fucked up black and white world.

You mean the guys that invaded, blockaded, and bombed a sovereign nation and in doing so have killed hundreds of civilions and a dozen of their own soldiers to retrieve two or three kidnapped soldiers from a guerilla organization?
If they are the "good guys," we must live in one fucked up black and white world.


Yup the good guys, making a stand against terrorists.

its exactly this kind of invective i want the thread to avoid.
Sorry, it's just how I feel. Hezbollah is simply a terrorist organization. Israel is a legitimate nation.

Israel didn't start the military action, the armed Hezbollah militias did. When attacked a nation has the option of defending itself.


Smart man, you are :)

You mean the guys that invaded, blockaded, and bombed a sovereign nation and in doing so have killed hundreds of civilions and [b]a dozen of their own soldiers to retrieve two or three kidnapped soldiers from a guerilla organization?
If they are the "good guys," we must live in one fucked up black and white world.
I've already stated that the goal of this type of action is not to get back a couple of soldiers, but to establish severe consequences for harboring terrorist organizations that attack across the border into Israel. It's no different than when the US attacked Afghanistan for harboring and protecting Al Qaeda.

OMG, now the droped a nuclear bomb over Tel Aviv...

what are we going to do, did you see that mushroon in the TV?

I told you hundreds and thousands of dead people...

I must go to be with my family in the case anything happens

I've already stated that the goal of this type of action is not to get back a couple of soldiers, but to establish severe consequences for harboring terrorist organizations that attack across the border into Israel. It's no different than when the US attacked Afghanistan for harboring and protecting Al Qaeda.
The terrorist groups already don't fucking like them. This action can only serve to stir up terrorist groups and cause them to step up attacks on Israel as well as piss off all the Arabian countries who have views of Israel below 10% positive.

one man's terrorist is anther mans bayjoiran freedom fighter or maquis

no i am not Jewish, and I have never been to Israel, (so i am not stereotyped or whatever)

Israel is doing the right thing by fighting for its soldiers, its citizens.
The UN effectively has little power as my father would say, "its a worthless organization which does nothing" (the security council and sanctions)

The world bank however is an excellent organization. BUT BACK TO THE POINT,

no sanctions should be put on Israel but rather on Palestine, Syria, Iran, and possibly Lebanon.

Then Lebanon's state military has the option of assaulting Israeli troops and Israel with whatever means are open to them.
Heh hehe hah. Sure why not. Of course, declaring war on the israelis would be really really stupid, beyond moronic in fact. But sure, they could do it.

The UN effectively has little power as my father would say, "its a worthless organization which does nothing" (the security council and sanctions)

Wrong. The decisions, resolutions and sanctions that the UN make are only those that your government and others decide. If it is powerless, it is the fault of vetoing states' foreign policy.

no i am not Jewish, and I have never been to Israel, (so i am not stereotyped or whatever)

Israel is doing the right thing by fighting for its soldiers, its citizens.
The UN effectively has little power as my father would say, "its a worthless organization which does nothing" (the security council and sanctions)

The world bank however is an excellent organization. BUT BACK TO THE POINT,

no sanctions should be put on Israel but rather on Palestine, Syria, Iran, and possibly Lebanon.

what bit about your opinion on the state of israel not being relevent here are you struggling with, there are dozens of threads for that.

but as you say they always do the right thing, was bombing a house with 10 children in it 'the right thing'?

There is no rule in war that a nation must meet each action with a 'measured response'.

"Uh hey, we only attacked you with two guys, the rules say that you can only respond with 2 guys, that's not fair!!!"

Don't attack the guy who's bigger and stronger than you. Pretty simple really.

The terrorist groups already don't fucking like them. This action can only serve to stir up terrorist groups and cause them to step up attacks on Israel as well as piss off all the Arabian countries who have views of Israel below 10% positive.
The message is being sent to the Arab world. The message is simple. If terrorists that you harbor attack Israel, Israel will hold you responsible. Therefore, either disarm the terrorists or keep a tight leash on them.

You don't deal with an organization that wants only to kill you.

The British government did, and the IRA has pretty much given up violence. It works.

The British government did, and the IRA has pretty much given up violence. It works.
The IRA didn't want to destroy England. Hamas and Hezbollah do want to destroy Israel. Those are two separate kinds of threat. It's like comparing a barfight to an attempted assasination.

The message is being sent to the Arab world. The message is simple. If terrorists that you harbor attack Israel, Israel will hold you responsible. Therefore, either disarm the terrorists or keep a tight leash on them.
That obviously won't work. Oveerwhelming and excessive force has not yet convinced foreign opposition to their own terrorist groups, why would it now? This will ony serve to increase support for home grown terrorist groups.

The IRA didn't want to destroy England. Hamas and Hezbollah do want to destroy Israel. Those are two separate kinds of threat. It's like comparing a barfight to an attempted assasination.
Maybe the lack of excessive force and brutality in response to the numerous terrorist attacks prevented further suppot for the IRA to build and strengthen.

The IRA didn't want to destroy England. Hamas and Hezbollah do want to destroy Israel. Those are two separate kinds of threat. It's like comparing a barfight to an attempted assasination.

the IRA wants to destroy Northern Ireland. It's the same thing. The IRA repeatedly tried to kill the top level of British government. The bombed Westminster, the Cabinet while they were staying in Brighton etc.

It's the same thing. The IRA wants to destroy Northern Ireland, Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Both want to destroy countries and bring them under their control. Those are the sole aims of both organisations.

The British response was, generally, appropriate and targeted solely at the IRA. There were exceptions, of course, but that's the way they conducted the war. And it worked.

Attacking the Republic and carpet bombing Dublin, or going on killing sprees in Cork, would only have made the situation worse. They handled it well, and in the exact opposite way to how Israel have.

Israel didn't start the military action, the armed Hezbollah militias did. When attacked a nation has the option of defending itself.

Considering these militias have been retalliating for actions in which sanctions were put on Israel for yet ignored, I dont think the UN really has much control at this point.

Maybe the lack of excessive force and brutality in response to the numerous terrorist attacks prevented further suppot for the IRA to build and strengthen.

The British were very brutal and exessive on occasion towords the IRA. Just not the Irish state or their families.

The British were very brutal and exessive on occasion towords the IRA. Just not the Irish state or their families.
Which was the point I was making.. Terrorists do something to Israel, the state of Israel has it's military indiscriminately bomb the state from which the terrorists came.

Which was the point I was making.. Terrorists do something to Israel, the state of Israel has it's military indiscriminately bomb the state from which the terrorists came.

agreed so. right, im off to the pub.

pantless, its your job to make sure that this doenst get hijaked into a pro/anti Israel rant.

Keep it military.

That obviously won't work. Oveerwhelming and excessive force has not yet convinced foreign opposition to their own terrorist groups, why would it now? This will ony serve to increase support for home grown terrorist groups.
The only reason it's failed so far is that Israel has failed to apply enough force and cause enough suffering in the nations that support terrorism against them.

Maybe the lack of excessive force and brutality in response to the numerous terrorist attacks prevented further suppot for the IRA to build and strengthen.Or maybe the IRA didn't believe that their religion made them superior to the English. (The Hamas people commonly refer to the Jews and christians as descendents of pigs and apes.) Maybe it's because the IRA never intended to destroy England and take over it's land. Hamas wants all of Israel to become Palestine. Maybe the IRA just weren't extremist, genocidal, lunatics acting on the orders of god.

Yes, Israel has gone too far this time. It's the latest one of their blatant disregard of internationnal law and the sovereign right of their neighbour. And, once again, there will be no repercution on the world stage because of a few coutries who can't seem to understand that Israel need to be reigned in when they go off on massive attacks like those who help no one in the region.

But then, the USA opened that particular can of worms when they opted for the invasion of Irak in order to "protect" their citizen. Can't blame Russia, Israel and others when they use the same line, now do they?

Israel apologist should be ashamed of themselves. Defend Israel all you want when their actions are legitimate. Today, their actions are despicable.

The only reason it's failed so far is that Israel has failed to apply enough force and cause enough suffering in the nations that support terrorism against them.
Commies, I didn't realize you were so dumb as to believe that. I didn't know you were one of those ignorant fools who believed you can fight a concept with convential warfare. I lost any respect I had for you.
The more the Arabs see Israel attacking the nation with overt shows of force, the most they will disdain Israel. It is damn hard to break the spirit of an entire nation who share the same opinion.

Maybe it's because the IRA never intended to destroy England and take over it's land.

No, but it did/does want to destroy Northern Ireland and take over its land. Northern Ireland was, until 1973, autonomous with its own Cabinet, Prime Minister, Parliament and other governmental organisations, Governor (Queen's Rep.) etc. much in the same way as Canada, Australia etc.

It was more or less as sovereign as other British territories like the Bahamas were at the time. And the IRA wanted to destroy it and take over its land.

Yes, Israel has gone too far this time. It's the latest one of their blatant disregard of internationnal law and the sovereign right of their neighbour. And, once again, there will be no repercution on the world stage because of a few coutries who can't seem to understand that Israel need to be reigned in when they go off on massive attacks like those who help no one in the region.

But then, the USA opened that particular can of worms when they opted for the invasion of Irak in order to "protect" their citizen. Can't blame Russia, Israel and others when they use the same line, now do they?

Israel apologist should be ashamed of themselves. Defend Israel all you want when their actions are legitimate. Today, their actions are despicable.
So now there's an international law that says you can't fight back if a foreign militia crosses your border and attacks your military? Please refrain from wasting my time in the future with worthless posts like the one I'm responding to.

what a bunch of weenies you people are. What if some group of gangsters
or terrorists in lets say mexico were kidnapping americans. And lets say the mexican government did nothing. Would you really stand around with your thumbs up your asses, saying u.n. sanctions ! or lets try diplomacy! What can we do to "understand" these people? NITWITS!!! will you stand up for anything?
Your gutless cries for sanctions are the death knell of this empire. Lets not forget who we are. The indians wiped out other weaker tribes long before we got here. Stand and fight or be eclipsed by the bullies of the world. The criminals in the detestable u.n. have no interest in human rights or freedom. If you haven't the stomache to fight when someone kicks you in the teeth you don't deserve to live. This american remembers how the wars of old were won
; by hard men with the bayonet ,grenade, and the flamethrower! War is never
necessary but it is ALWAYS INEVITABLE! Such is the nature of man and ever will be. There is nothing new under the sun, read a history book you bunch of spineless sissies!
By the way there are americans missing, kidnapped by mexicans and nothing is being done. We have become a nation of disgusting cowards and if
it were not for the bravery of our still proud warrior class I would be ashamed to call myself an american. Thank god ther are a few real americans left.

So now there's an international law that says you can't fight back if a foreign militia crosses your border and attacks your military? Please refrain from wasting my time in the future with worthless posts like the one I'm responding to.
I would ask you to stop wasting your time posting then because all of your posts have Israel apologist written all over them.

or terrorists in lets say mexico were kidnapping americans. And lets say the mexican government did nothing.
Kidnapping soldiers, not civilians. And a surgical strike team would suffice. Even the US would not blockade Mexico, invade with as many troops and weapons as can be mustered and make random strikes at various places as well as destroying infreastructure.

Commies, I didn't realize you were so dumb as to believe that. I didn't know you were one of those ignorant fools who believed you can fight a concept with convential warfare. I lost any respect I had for you.
The more the Arabs see Israel attacking the nation with overt shows of force, the most they will disdain Israel. It is damn hard to break the spirit of an entire nation who share the same opinion.
There are some cultures that don't respect you unless the following conditions are met.

1) You are strong enough to do serious damage to them.

2) You are willing to inflict very serious damage to them.

I believe that Arab culture is like that. You have to prove that you're willing to hit them and hit them hard enough to make them suffer or they'll keep picking at you hoping you'll give them what they want.

or terrorists in lets say mexico were kidnapping americans. And lets say the mexican government did nothing. Would you really stand around with your thumbs up your asses, saying u.n. sanctions ! or lets try diplomacy! What can we do to "understand" these people? NITWITS!!! will you stand up for anything?

It's worked numerous times in the past. IRA, ETA etc.

You have to prove that you're willing to hit them and hit them hard enough to make them suffer or they'll keep picking at you hoping you'll give them what they want.
Ignorance. Pure ignorance. The more you push people, the most they push back. They will always hate you, the more you push, the more they hate you - the more they support those groups that attack you.
Israel may be winning the arms race, but it is losing the persuasion game every time a bomb is dropped.

Israel apologist should be ashamed of themselves. Defend Israel all you want when their actions are legitimate. Today, their actions are despicable.
when it come to you, they never legitmate.
israel has any right to do it as act of self-defence.

when it come to you, they never legitmate.
israel has any right to do it as act of self-defence.
They can put gun turrets on their borders for all I fucking care, but blockading a sovereign nation and bombing its airport cannot be construed to be "defense."

Ignorance. Pure ignorance. The more you push people, the most they push back. They will always hate you, the more you push, the more they hate you - the more they support those groups that attack you.
Israel may be winning the arms race, but it is losing the persuasion game every time a bomb is dropped.


And then when you go about peace negotiations, pull out of lands and so forth, they still attack you from all sides. What would you do in that instance? Sit there and allow it to happen, or strike back hard, and destroy them all?

Lets try and keep this one on topic, lets discuss the military action and its conseqences, both human and political, not the concept of the state of Israel or how what you think of Arabs. And not even whether its acceptible for militias/terror groups to capture regular soldiers engaged in hostilities.

At the moment there are over 100 confirmed civilain deaths and 14 IDF and 1 Lebanese Army fatalities.

Surely the human cost of this, even to the IDF itself (14 dead trying to pressure the captures of 3 soldiers) means this type of response is madness from Ohlmert? Is this soely to flex his muscles in Isreal because he isnt seen as a 'hard man' like Sharon was? Is it an attempt to provoke an intifada? Or do they really believe an armour assault is the best method of securing these guys release?

28 civilian deaths in the Lebanon, including 10 children in the same house (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=114044)

A family including 7 children killed here whilt the 'target' was missed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5171148.stm)

The EU finally say enough is enough (http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/07/13/ap2876885.html)


There already is essentially an intifada. And the Palestinians and Hezbollah attacked first.

What do you expect Israel to do, surrender? Just allow Hezbollah to continuously kidnap people and rocket Israel?

Where's your moral outrage over what the Palestinians do, or what they teach their kids (that genocide is the only solution to the Palestinian problem)?

They can put gun turrets on their borders for all I fucking care, but blockading a sovereign nation and bombing its airport cannot be construed to be "defense."


It was okay for America to do it after Sept. 11th, wasn't it? Everyone in the world backed those operations up in Afghanistan, but now that the shoe is on Israel's foot, people just sit there and condemn it for anything it does.

Ignorance. Pure ignorance. The more you push people, the most they push back. They will always hate you, the more you push, the more they hate you - the more they support those groups that attack you.
Israel may be winning the arms race, but it is losing the persuasion game every time a bomb is dropped.
we try the other way. know what we got? more terror.

It was okay for America to do it after Sept. 11th, wasn't it? Everyone in the world backed those operations up in Afghanistan, but now that the shoe is on Israel's foot, people just sit there and condemn it for anything it does.
1) Entirely different situation
2) People jumped on the US's ass when it invaded Iraq on the same pretext.

It was okay for America to do it after Sept. 11th, wasn't it? Everyone in the world backed those operations up in Afghanistan, but now that the shoe is on Israel's foot, people just sit there and condemn it for anything it does.
Although there may be justified reasons for this conflict, comparing September 11th to the kidnapping of 3 people is a bit much.

They can put gun turrets on their borders for all I fucking care, but blockading a sovereign nation and bombing its airport cannot be construed to be "defense."

Umm... then I guess that the UK should not have used the Royal Navy to isolate Germany in WWII, nor should it have bombed Germany from the air. In your limited imagination, that would not have been "defending" itself against German aggression.

Antiquated ideas like yours went out the window decades ago concerning what is "legal" in warfare. Losers generally sit there and play "defensive measures only".

I guess you want Israel to lose.

Although there may be justified reasons for this conflict, comparing September 11th to the kidnapping of 3 people is a bit much.
Not just 3 people - 3 soldiers.

Umm... then I guess that the UK should not have used the Royal Navy to isolate Germany in WWII, nor should it have bombed Germany from the air. In your limited imagination, that would not have been "defending" itself against German aggression.
What the fuck are you smoking? Bombing a nation is not defense against guerilla groups. It cannot be construed as defense. And no, attacking is not defending.

I guess you want Israel to lose.
Don't try me, I can make torches faster than you can make a strawmen.

There already is essentially an intifada. And the Palestinians and Hezbollah attacked first.

What do you expect Israel to do, surrender? Just allow Hezbollah to continuously kidnap people and rocket Israel?

Where's your moral outrage over what the Palestinians do, or what they teach their kids (that genocide is the only solution to the Palestinian problem)?


you just can't argue this point to them. They are so "open minded" and all, that there brains have simply fallen out.

Ignorance. Pure ignorance. The more you push people, the most they push back. They will always hate you, the more you push, the more they hate you - the more they support those groups that attack you.
Israel may be winning the arms race, but it is losing the persuasion game every time a bomb is dropped.
Israel will nevr win the persuasion game. They can only hope to discourage attacks.

Not just 3 people - 3 soldiers.
Still...Like I said, I personally feel Israel is within its rights to retaliate here, although probably not in the way it is. All I was pointing out is that the reason he cited was a bad comparison.

They can put gun turrets on their borders for all I fucking care, but blockading a sovereign nation and bombing its airport cannot be construed to be "defense."
only that won't help against the missles they keep launch on us. they just launch some to haifa- main city in israel, and all the other north of israel.
we can't hid in our borders when the terrorists attack us.

Israel will nevr win the persuasion game. They can only hope to discourage attacks.
This will only encourage attacks from more sources and increase support for those attacks.

This will only encourage attacks from more sources and increase support for those attacks.


But even in peace agreements, the groups still attack. They are barbarians that need to cease to live.

what a bunch of weenies you people are. What if some group of gangsters or terrorists in lets say mexico were kidnapping americans.

To make the analogy more accurate, lets say we occupy Mexico.

This will only encourage attacks from more sources and increase support for those attacks.
which were increased, no matter what israel did.

They are barbarians that need to cease to live.
Speaking of which.

As a citizen of Israel, some of what you said made me understand just how little some people know of the war that's been going on here for 58 years in a row.
In this particular case, we have now a war on two fronts, both with the Hizb'allah kidnapping soldiers and bombarding Haifa up north, and the Hamas kidnapping soldiers near Gaza.
It is not only essential but the true minimum that Israel can do: retake the Gaza strip to free our soldier and destroy Hizb'allah's army - which is probably the Lebanese army as well.
The fact that the IDF, which is by far more moral than the US army (shall I remind you the pretty pictures of citizens murdered in Iraq and the tortures in your terrorist prisons by american soldiers?), is ready to go to any length to retrieve it's soldiers, our citizens from anywhere in the world, no matter what it takes - is a symbol of israeli commitment to it's soldiers.
If we have to retake the Gaza strip and search every house while exterminating every terrorist in our way - then thus it will be.

which were increased, no matter what israel did.

Actually, Israel probably never even thought about peace. Hamas keeps calling for a cese fire agreement, Israel just says "Fuck You". Kind of like how America sees N.Korea as this huge threat but refuses to even talk with them.

To make the analogy more accurate, lets say we occupy Mexico.
israel aren't occupy the strip for 10 months, and lebanon for 6 years.
both withrawal were to the universal legitimate border, therefore make them fully terrorists.

1) Entirely different situation
2) People jumped on the US's ass when it invaded Iraq on the same pretext.
Same situation. Both Afghanistan and Lebanon harbored terrorist organizations that attacked foreign nations. Both Afghanistan and Lebanon have now been invaded for their complicity in terrorism.

Yeah it's true. Isreal is about as subtle as a flying sledgehammer. However, considering their past history and the fact that they are surrounded on all sides by nations that pretty much actively want to wipe them off the face of the earth, how can you expect them to act any differently?

Frankly, the smart money rides on the Israelis.

Actually, Israel probably never even thought about peace. Hamas keeps calling for a cese fire agreement, Israel just says "Fuck You". Kind of like how America sees N.Korea as this huge threat but refuses to even talk with them.
you joking, right? they refused our peace proposals which gave them 95% of the west bank, and all the strip in 2000.
then they start the 2nd intifada, and the current bloodship.
blame israel for unwilling for peace is the weakest argument exist.

To make the analogy more accurate, lets say we occupy Mexico.


If thats what it takes to protect the citizens of one's nation, then so be it.

Actually, Israel probably never even thought about peace. Hamas keeps calling for a cese fire agreement, Israel just says "Fuck You". Kind of like how America sees N.Korea as this huge threat but refuses to even talk with them.


I call bull. the Hamas calls for cease fire after kidnapping a soldier, of course they can go fuck themselves. Once the soldeir is removed we can perhaps find a leader for these people who has more in his mind than crazy world domination prospects and finally have some peace and quiet around here

I'm a little late in this argument so I'll just say my peace and not worry about replying. I believe as long as militant groups such as hamas and terrorist sponsoring states such as Syria and Lebanon continue to launch rockets into Israel then the Israelis have a right to attack.

The Israeli goverment has to use such a hard line approach because almost every nation in that region wants to see them "wiped from the face of the earth" I don't see how you can reprimand them for doing what needs to be done. Sometimes the best defense is a strong offense.

If the Israeli goverment wants their soldiers back, then by god they have a right to do whatever is in their power to try. Hamas was all hard ass when they stole the first one and it wasn't until Israel started rolling into the west bank that they started offering a "peaceful solution" to anything. These people cannot be dealt with through diplomacy because it is a hate they are taught is right. The only way to deal with them is 2 in the chest and 1 in the head.

This will only encourage attacks from more sources and increase support for those attacks.
Not necessarily. How much destruction and death will people be willing to endure over the course of decades just to hurt Israel? My bet is not much, but to make it work Israel has to take the gloves off and attack much more agressively. It's been too timid in it's dealings with it's neighbors throughout the past.

To make the analogy more accurate, lets say we occupy Mexico.
No part of Lebanon has been occupied by Israel since the 1980s.

I call bull. the Hamas calls for cease fire after kidnapping a soldier, of course they can go fuck themselves. Once the soldeir is removed we can perhaps find a leader for these people who has more in his mind than crazy world domination prospects and finally have some peace and quiet around here

I also call bull.

North Korea, on its own, started the Korean War.

The US fought in the Korean War, yes. But only with FULL UN authorization and a true multinational force.

It's not like the US went and said, "oh, we'll kick North Korea until they do something."

Don't even try to blame it on the US there.

What North Korea wants is an unconditional non-aggression pact between the US and North Korea - in essence, a guarantee that if North Korea invades South Korea, that the US will stand off and do nothing to stop it.

Is that what you really want Kazus? Do you really want the US to act unilaterally (instead of multilaterally as it is doing now) and sacrifice South Korea to Kim Jong-il?

Really?

It's worked numerous times in the past. IRA, ETA etc.



well great. Lets become a broke down sorryass socialist weenie utopia just like
spain and great britain

Actually, Israel probably never even thought about peace. Hamas keeps calling for a cese fire agreement, Israel just says "Fuck You". Kind of like how America sees N.Korea as this huge threat but refuses to even talk with them.
Hamas keeps calling for a cease fire while allowing terrorist groups to hit Israel. Some cease fire. Hey, let's have a truce. You dont' hit me, and I'll suckerpunch you once in a while.

Not necessarily. How much destruction and death will people be willing to endure over the course of decades just to hurt Israel? My bet is not much, but to make it work Israel has to take the gloves off and attack much more agressively. It's been too timid in it's dealings with it's neighbors throughout the past.
Cultures arn't the same and few cultures would retaliate to excessive military exertion with peace.

Hamas keeps calling for a cease fire while allowing terrorist groups to hit Israel.
You mean there are terrorist gruops Hamas does not control? Go on!

Cultures arn't the same and few cultures would retaliate to excessive military exertion with peace.


You mean there are terrorist gruops Hamas does not control? Go on!
Japan surrendered and made peace. It took a brutal war and the destruction of several of their cities. It may take the same for Israel to win peace with it's neighbors, but urging moderation and restraint is just going to prolong the state of war.

You mean there are terrorist gruops Hamas does not control? Go on!
islamic jihad, al-aqza wariors, hizbulla, freelancers of al-qaida.
should I continue?
the whole area is anarchy full with terrorists, just like iraq.

I also call bull.

North Korea, on its own, started the Korean War.

The US fought in the Korean War, yes. But only with FULL UN authorization and a true multinational force.

It's not like the US went and said, "oh, we'll kick North Korea until they do something."

Don't even try to blame it on the US there.

What North Korea wants is an unconditional non-aggression pact between the US and North Korea - in essence, a guarantee that if North Korea invades South Korea, that the US will stand off and do nothing to stop it.

Is that what you really want Kazus? Do you really want the US to act unilaterally (instead of multilaterally as it is doing now) and sacrifice South Korea to Kim Jong-il?

Really?
Is Hamas now based in North Korea?

Cultures arn't the same and few cultures would retaliate to excessive military exertion with peace.


You mean there are terrorist gruops Hamas does not control? Go on!

Hamas is one of a great abundance of terrorist groups in this region.
Apart from them there are the Hizballah, legions of Al-Aqza, Fatah, Islamic Jihad and those are the big ones

well great. Lets become a broke down sorryass socialist weenie utopia just like
spain and great britain

Well, at least we know for sure that you don't know anything about the aforementioned countries.

Well, at least we know for sure that you don't know anything about the aforementioned countries.

I wasn't aware that the IRA posed, as its primary means of solving the problem of British occupation, the complete genocide of every Briton.

That's what Palestinians and Hezbollah want. They teach it to their kids. They sing it in songs. They put it in their most important government and organizational documents. They even draw their maps the way they wish it was already.

You can't compare the troubles to what's going on in the Middle East. It's not the same thing.

this confilcit in isreal is alot like the maquis cardassain confilt the dominion took over cardassa
DS9 was a good show, but this is wildly off-topic.

Hamas is one of a great abundance of terrorist groups in this region.
Apart from them there are the Hizballah, legions of Al-Aqza, Fatah, Islamic Jihad and those are the big ones
Apparently no one fucking understands sarcasm.

I wasn't aware that the IRA posed, as its primary means of solving the problem of British occupation, the complete genocide of every Briton.

That's what Palestinians and Hezbollah want. They teach it to their kids. They sing it in songs. They put it in their most important government and organizational documents. They even draw their maps the way they wish it was already.

You can't compare the troubles to what's going on in the Middle East. It's not the same thing.

Once again, it wasn't about destruction of the UK, it was about destruction of Northern Ireland. Comparing a desire for the destruction of Northern Ireland to a desire for the destruction of Israel works. Including the UK as a whole doesn't.

It's like saying someone calling in the early 70s for the destruction of a British supported Bahaman state would have been calling for the destruction of the UK. NI and the Bahamas had a comparable relationship with the UK.

That's why you're inaccurate when you say "Britons". The IRA advocated the destruction of unionists in Northern Ireland. Which is comparable to Hamas etc.

And please don't forget the way they dance after a ter-act... we got broadcasts of children carrying and dancing with parts of our soldiers dead bodies on prime time TV, once, so tell me who wer'e fighting with?

No part of Lebanon has been occupied by Israel since the 1980s.
Absolutely right, and whatever palestinian lands israel "occupies" were won fair and square in a war the arabs started. The u.s. already "occupy" land we took from mexico in a war we started. Who are we to judge the stuation? Should we feel bad and give the southwest back? Idiocy.

I wasn't aware that the IRA posed, as its primary means of solving the problem of British occupation, the complete genocide of every Briton.

That's what Palestinians and Hezbollah want. They teach it to their kids. They sing it in songs. They put it in their most important government and organizational documents. They even draw their maps the way they wish it was already.

You can't compare the troubles to what's going on in the Middle East. It's not the same thing.
Then why would they start to think "Oh, we should start to like Israel and stop trying to destroy them!" when faced with excessive force when they have already been indoctrinated to dislike Israel?

Last i heard it was more than 50 dead in the south including 15 kids and an Israeli general saying Beirut was next unless the rocket attacks stopped: he said "nowhere is safe." Israel has become a rogue state.

And please don't forget the way they dance after a ter-act... we got broadcasts of children carrying and dancing with parts of our soldiers dead bodies on prime time TV, once, so tell me who wer'e fighting with?


People you have tormented and wronged so badly that even their children want justice and revenge.

Israel escalates its problems at its own peril. Jesus isnt really up there protecting it.

Israel went too far ages ago

Then why would they start to think "Oh, we should start to like Israel and stop trying to destroy them!" when faced with excessive force when they have already been indoctrinated to dislike Israel?

And who broke the peace settlement first? Who rejected the peace plan? Who kidnapped the soldiers? Who sent the suicide bombers?

Who did these things first?

Ah, the Palestinians and Hezbollah. I see. So you're excusing their behavior, even when Israel gets out of Gaza and starts bulldozing settlements and forcing Israelis to leave Palestinian areas in accordance with the peace plan?

And even when Israel tries to leave them completely alone, the Palestinians dig a 600 meter tunnel, just to kidnap a soldier?

Why am I not hearing anyone saying, "well, holding soldiers for ransom is a violation of the Geneva Convention"?

Your double standard is far, far too obvious to see.

China and Russia should for once take the moral high ground and declare:

No UN action on Iran without commensurate action on Israel.

Last i heard it was more than 50 dead in the south including 15 kids and an Israeli general saying Beirut was next unless the rocket attacks stopped: he said "nowhere is safe." Israel has become a rogue state.

Really? Retaliating for an attack makes you a "rogue state"?

And what about Lebanon? Formally hosting and approving of a massive terrorist militia, in violation of various accords?

Or Syria? Financing and arming that massive terrorist militia?

You make me laugh.

Hezbollah is an independent organization with its own source of funding and arms. The Lebanese government has very little control over them, and were they to attempt to destroy them through military action the result would be massive bloodshed and probably civil war, hence why they have been trying to get their diplomatic house in order to try to deal with this issue. Not to mention that there are many different factions: to please the Israelis, the Lebanese government would have to get every single one, plus every individual, to agree not to attack Israel (this is the same problem with the Palestinians).

Interesting how ‘targeting civilians’ is the definition most people use for terrorism, yet now that Israel has done so in addition to collective punishment of the Lebanese, it is ok. It is quite simple – collective punishment is held as a human rights abuse and is not permitted by the international community. This has of course been a problem as Israel has had a collective punishment policy against the Palestinians (and they wonder why they don’t have friends in the refugee camps) but has been able to get away with it because the US will veto anything against Israel, giving them a blank check to violate international law at will (which they take advantage of without hesitation).

You may argue that they are not targeting civilians, they are just targeting individuals they consider a threat. Like a professor who is outspoken in his encouragement for support of Hamas. That he and his children had to die is unfortunate, but intentionally dropping a bomb on them was in no way targeting them.

If they limited their attacks to legitimate military targets I would support them. When they target whole families for execution, it is appalling.

And who broke the peace settlement first? Who rejected the peace plan? Who kidnapped the soldiers? Who sent the suicide bombers?

Who did these things first?

Ah, the Palestinians and Hezbollah. I see. So you're excusing their behavior, even when Israel gets out of Gaza and starts bulldozing settlements and forcing Israelis to leave Palestinian areas in accordance with the peace plan?

And even when Israel tries to leave them completely alone, the Palestinians dig a 600 meter tunnel, just to kidnap a soldier?

Why am I not hearing anyone saying, "well, holding soldiers for ransom is a violation of the Geneva Convention"?

Your double standard is far, far too obvious to see.
Way to miss the point.
Double standard eh? I guess I shouldn't expect Israel to not sink to the childish, immature and ignorant level of its enemies. In that case, I demand you support the removal of nuclear capability from Israel because it is a loose cannon.

Then why would they start to think "Oh, we should start to like Israel and stop trying to destroy them!" when faced with excessive force when they have already been indoctrinated to dislike Israel?
why would surroundering will stop hate israel and launch missles and terror attacks on us?

If Israel keeps acting like this i doubt they will retain any remaining US support.
They went too far a long, long time ago. Israel is just another failed state like Palestine or Iraq.

People you have tormented and wronged so badly that even their children want justice and revenge.

Israel escalates its problems at its own peril. Jesus isnt really up there protecting it.

when you start saying things like that it just proves your complete ignorance.
We have not tormented those people.
they had every chance for 58 years to form a state beside us, instead - they chose to fight to take the land we sit on and kill us.
They attack almost exclusively civilians while the IDF goes specifically against terrorists and in the cases when civilans are harmed from our actions - we are the first to apologize.
and about your jesus, keep him to yourself.

Way to miss the point.
Double standard eh? I guess I shouldn't expect Israel to not sink to the childish, immature and ignorant level of its enemies. In that case, I demand you support the removal of nuclear capability from Israel because it is a loose cannon.

Really? Well, as soon as the UN marches alone into Pyongyang, without the help of the US, and removes the nuclear weapons there, I don't think you have much to talk about.

Israel has never threatened the use of nuclear weapons (like Iran), nor has it randomly fired ballistic missiles over another country (like North Korea).

It's not a loose cannon. Retaliation in response to an act of war is perfectly acceptable under international law. Saying that it's "going too far" is just showing your bias - you want exactly what the Palestinians want - the death of every Israeli and the complete elimination of the nation of Israel.

Until that comes, you'll be happy to criticize everything Israel does or does not do.

Way to miss the point.
Double standard eh? I guess I shouldn't expect Israel to not sink to the childish, immature and ignorant level of its enemies. In that case, I demand you support the removal of nuclear capability from Israel because it is a loose cannon.
if you dealing with people who want to kill you, be more matue mean be dead.
probably you had no such problem with nuclear iran.

We have not tormented those people.



Hahaha!

Tell it to some other shmuck.

Really? Well, as soon as the UN marches alone into Pyongyang, without the help of the US, and removes the nuclear weapons there, I don't think you have much to talk about.

Israel has never threatened the use of nuclear weapons (like Iran), nor has it randomly fired ballistic missiles over another country (like North Korea).

It's not a loose cannon. Retaliation in response to an act of war is perfectly acceptable under international law. Saying that it's "going too far" is just showing your bias - you want exactly what the Palestinians want - the death of every Israeli and the complete elimination of the nation of Israel.

Until that comes, you'll be happy to criticize everything Israel does or does not do.


This is flaming or flamebait or something else nefarious.

If Israel keeps acting like this i doubt they will retain any remaining US support.
They went too far a long, long time ago. Israel is just another failed state like Palestine or Iraq.
compare to USA own actions, we even didn't walk half of the way.

Hahaha!

Tell it to some other shmuck.

I'll tell it to this ignorant shmuck instead.
where do you live, btw, that you allow yourself to think you know about anything that happens in the middle east

Really? Well, as soon as the UN marches alone into Pyongyang, without the help of the US, and removes the nuclear weapons there, I don't think you have much to talk about.
Yeah, it's not as if the UN isn't a body only composed of the member nations or anything and not a standalone entity.

The rest of your post was biased, Israel brown-nosing tripe.

Really? Well, as soon as the UN marches alone into Pyongyang, without the help of the US, and removes the nuclear weapons there, I don't think you have much to talk about.

Israel has never threatened the use of nuclear weapons (like Iran), nor has it randomly fired ballistic missiles over another country (like North Korea).

It's not a loose cannon. Retaliation in response to an act of war is perfectly acceptable under international law. Saying that it's "going too far" is just showing your bias - you want exactly what the Palestinians want - the death of every Israeli and the complete elimination of the nation of Israel.

Until that comes, you'll be happy to criticize everything Israel does or does not do.


Even in peace talks, I am certain people like teh pantless hero, would still criticize Israel, so i totally agree. Only in total destruction will they be happy.

This is flaming or flamebait or something else nefarious.
no, the flaming is when any military act of israel, told to be illegitimate.

Yeah, it's not as if the UN isn't a body only composed of the member nations or anything and not a standalone entity.

The rest of your post was biased, Israel brown-nosing tripe.so stop tell we should leave it for the UN, which obiuvesly can't point a finger alone.

China and Russia should for once take the moral high ground and declare:

No UN action on Iran without commensurate action on Israel.

nice idea

no, the flaming is when any military act of israel, told to be illegitimate.

It would be dishonest and immoral to call israel's outrageous and despicable policy of collective punishment of civilians anything but "illegitimate."

When saddam hussein collectively punished civilians he was doing the same thing.

It is always despicable, whether it is done by christians, muslims or jews.

The "race card" makes israeli apologists into laughingstocks.

Yeah, it's not as if the UN isn't a body only composed of the member nations or anything and not a standalone entity.

The rest of your post was biased, Israel brown-nosing tripe.

Still brown-nosing the Palestinians, I see.

It would be dishonest and immoral to call israel's outrageous and despicable policy of collective punishment of civilians anything but "illegitimate."

When saddam hussein collectively punished civilians he was doing the same thing.

It is always despicable, whether it is done by christians, muslims or jews.

The "race card" makes israeli apologists into laughingstocks.


you are completely correct and also completely, pathetically wrong.
Harming citizens is despicable and immoral and this is exactly why the IDF does everything in its power to avoid it while the terrorist attack mostly citizens

no, the flaming is when any military act of israel, told to be illegitimate.

It appears that on this forum, when you disagree with the Left, you're an evil, Nazi, flamer. From the same people who think that Galloway's "style of debate" is somehow "masterful and witty".

I think I know where they got their lessons from.

I wasn't aware that the IRA posed, as its primary means of solving the problem of British occupation, the complete genocide of every Briton.

That's what Palestinians and Hezbollah want. They teach it to their kids. They sing it in songs. They put it in their most important government and organizational documents. They even draw their maps the way they wish it was already.

You can't compare the troubles to what's going on in the Middle East. It's not the same thing.
Amen, there is no equivalency, what comprimise could you make? Meet them halfway and let the arabs kill 1/2 of all jews. There eveybody happy?

It would be dishonest and immoral to call israel's outrageous and despicable policy of collective punishment of civilians anything but "illegitimate."

When saddam hussein collectively punished civilians he was doing the same thing.

It is always despicable, whether it is done by christians, muslims or jews.

The "race card" makes israeli apologists into laughingstocks.
only israel don't use this methods.
you are prove any minute you open your mouth, you had no clue about reality.

Still brown-nosing the Palestinians, I see.
Where am I supporting Palestine? Oh yeah, nowhere. Wait, wait, what's that? Oh yeah, it's a voice saying this thread is about Lebanon. And what is that other noise? Oh yeah, it's the ech of me calling them immature, childish, and ignorant.

you are completely correct and also completely, pathetically wrong.
Harming citizens is despicable and immoral and this is exactly why the IDF does everything in its power to avoid it while the terrorist attack mostly citizens


The dead civilians dotting gaza and now probably lebanon speak much more loudly than israel's claims of supposedly "not targeting civilians."

Maybe palestinian terrorists should start claiming "we though an israeli general was in the crowd, therefore our attack was legitimate and the civilian death are acceptable."

At the moment there are over 100 confirmed civilain deaths and 14 IDF and 1 Lebanese Army fatalities.

Surely the human cost of this, even to the IDF itself (14 dead trying to pressure the captures of 3 soldiers) means this type of response is madness from Ohlmert? Is this soely to flex his muscles in Isreal because he isnt seen as a 'hard man' like Sharon was? Is it an attempt to provoke an intifada? Or do they really believe an armour assault is the best method of securing these guys release?



It is not madness. It is a moral question. To never abandon no Jew its own luck, costs what to cost.

only israel don't use this methods.
you are prove any minute you open your mouth, you had no clue about reality.

Bombing the gaza power plant, the beirut airport and blockading beirut's ports are aimed at punishing civilians.

Bombing houses and claiming there are 'terrorist leaders' in them kills scores of civilians.

"had no clue about reality" indeed :rolleyes:

Where am I supporting Palestine? Oh yeah, nowhere. Wait, wait, what's that? Oh yeah, it's a voice saying this thread is about Lebanon. And what is that other noise? Oh yeah, it's the ech of me calling them immature, childish, and ignorant.
lebanon and palastine are the exact same thing, using the same propoganda, tactics, and sponsers (syria and iran), this is all part of the great arab war against israel and you choose the side of the terrorists.

Saying that it's "going too far" is just showing your bias - you want exactly what the Palestinians want - the death of every Israeli and the complete elimination of the nation of Israel.
Please do not place this sort of agenda into people's mouths.

Bombing the gaza power plant, the beirut airport and blockading beirut's ports are aimed at punishing civilians.

Bombing houses and claiming there are 'terrorist leaders' in them kills scores of civilians.

"had no clue about reality" indeed :rolleyes:

You seem to be unfamiliar with the modern idea that destroying infrastructure items such as power, water, roads, bridges, and communications are military objectives.

It denies, for instance, the ability for the Palestinians to use computers or communicate quickly if their powerplant is out. Batteries don't last forever.

Bombing the runway at an airport makes sure that Hezbollah has a much harder time getting resupplied - it will have to come in on roads through mountainous areas now.

Bombing the gaza power plant, the beirut airport and blockading beirut's ports are aimed at punishing civilians.

Bombing houses and claiming there are 'terrorist leaders' in them kills scores of civilians.

"had no clue about reality" indeed :rolleyes:


And what are Kassam rocket attacks, suicide bombs, and mortar attacks aimed at?

compare to USA own actions, we even didn't walk half of the way.
What the US does isnt relevant to whether Israel has gone too far. Which, by the way, it has. Perhaps the US ought to liberate it.

Bombing the gaza power plant, the beirut airport and blockading beirut's ports are aimed at punishing civilians.stratetiq actions used to make the terrorists hard life escape.

Bombing houses and claiming there are 'terrorist leaders' in them kills scores of civilians. propoganda of the palastinians, or misguided missles

had no clue about reality" indeed :rolleyes:this is justified actions, and in no way collective punishment. check yourself

What the US does isnt relevant to whether Israel has gone too far. Which, by the way, it has. Perhaps the US ought to liberate it.
yes it does. war on terror has casualities. the terrorists start it and they going to be sorry for that.

stratetiq actions used to make the terrorists hard life escape.

propoganda of the palastinians, or misguided missles

this is justified actions, and in no way collective punishment. check yourself

When you say things that on their face arent true, like "propodanga of the palastinians, or misguided missiles" no one believes you when you say other things.

Its a big problem.

yes it does. war on terror has casualities. the terrorists start it and they going to be sorry for that.
No, it really doesnt. The US just doesnt figure. Maybe what Israel has done, relative to what the US has done, isnt so bad, but what Israel has done and is still doing (e.g. killing 50 civilians) is really unacceptable. They have gone too far. Any country doing what Israel is doing has gone too far. Israel should lose their nuclear capability, soon. End of.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SHIT.


Rockets hit Israeli city of Haifa

At least one rocket has struck the northern Israeli port city of Haifa, hours after a threat by the militant Lebanese group Hezbollah.
Hezbollah denied firing any rockets. There were no immediate reports of injuries or damage.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5178058.stm

And what are Kassam rocket attacks, suicide bombs, and mortar attacks aimed at?


To use israeli excuses:

They are aimed either "to make military movement difficult" or to "strike high level israeli military targets"

"It is a shame they didnt land just where they should have, but war has civilian casualties"

&c.

No, it really doesnt. The US just doesnt figure. Maybe what Israel has done, relative to what the US has done, isnt so bad, but what Israel has done and is still doing (e.g. killing 50 civilians) is really unacceptable. They have gone too far. Any country doing what Israel is doing has gone too far. Israel should lose their nuclear capability, soon. End of.
what the terrorist did and keep doing is the true evil. you can be leftist on your countrie while they be against you.
don't lie yourself, israel and USA are only the beginning.

don't lie yourself, israel and USA are only the beginning.

Israel and the US were never the beginning. Get over yourself. Other countries have experienced terrorism for longer than either and before either ever experienced it.

When you say things that on their face arent true, like "propodanga of the palastinians, or misguided missiles" no one believes you when you say other things.

Its a big problem.
any war had accidents. in dense areas accidents cost more casualities.
the terrorists are the ones who use human shields and fake the numbers. terrorists death can't really include as civilians.

what the terrorist did and keep doing is the true evil. you can be leftist on your countrie while they be against you.
don't lie yourself, israel and USA are only the beginning.
Actually i live in London, and im fairly sure that they are against us. I just think that Israel have gone too far and are exacerbating the situation, regardless of what Palestine has done.

Israel and the US were never the beginning. Get over yourself. Other countries have experienced terrorism for longer than either and before either ever experienced it.
and we all remember how they mostly react. much big scale.

Actually i live in London, and im fairly sure that they are against us. I just think that Israel have gone too far and are exacerbating the situation, regardless of what Palestine has done.
I ask again: what won't be FAR?

and we all remember how they mostly react. much big scale.

52 British civilians dead = no military action

3 Israeli soldiers not dead = 100 or so palestinians and lebanese civilians blown to pieces.

I ask again: what won't be FAR?
maybe this thing called diplomacy you (don't) hear so much about.

look, i even made a link!

http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/chref/chref.py/main?query=diplomacy&title=21st&sourceid=Mozilla-search

Oh man, I think WW3 is just around the corner. Iran going to get involved, things are going to get worse in Iraq and Israel is being the pieces of shit they always are. Not to mention Kimie Il is going to be shooting off some rockets. This is really gonna suck but at least I will have something to watch on tv. *grabs popcorn*

maybe this thing called diplomacy you (don't) hear so much about.

look, i even made a link!

http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/chref/chref.py/main?query=diplomacy&title=21st&sourceid=Mozilla-search
we tried this "diplomacy" much before. the terror didn't stop, and they want we will free thousands of terrorists more. remember how britain dealt with the nazis?

remember how britain dealt with the nazis?

...by liking them for a decade before the war? :confused:

This just keeps getting worse and worse....

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israeli forces struck Beirut's international airport for the second time Thursday, hitting fuel tanks that exploded into fireballs.

The attack came soon after two rockets struck the northern Israeli port of Haifa on a day of spiraling violence and deepening crisis.


http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/mideast/story.1445.fuel.aa.jpgFuel tanks at Beirut's international airport explode during a second strike against the facility on Thursday.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/mideast/index.html

...by liking them for a decade before the war? :confused:
which only let them get more forces and military power, and let them attack UK the first chance they get.

:mp5:
The answer is to this problem is very simple. Give back the hostages and stop kidnapping.

There has been some sort of UN involvement in the Middle East ever since I can remember. What good has it ever done? The only policy that has _ever_ worked in the Middle East is to have superior firepower. Which is exactly the policy that is now being executed.

I highly doubt that the kidnapped soldiers will ever be recovered alive, but I don't think that this military action has affected that outcome at all. The best thing that can come out of this is that the Hezbollah militia can no longer find safe refuge in Lebanon.

Like hell. Superior firepower has never worked either. :p

when it come to you, they never legitmate.
israel has any right to do it as act of self-defence.
couldn't help but react.

Shut up, n00b. I know Israel is a hot topic but when you claim that I never defended Israel, you are putting a foot in your mouth. So tone down the insults, understood?

we tried this "diplomacy" much before. the terror didn't stop, and they want we will free thousands of terrorists more. remember how britain dealt with the nazis?

Firstly, bringing up WW2 and the Nazis is low, really fucking low. You wouldnt bring it up in an argument with a German person so why would you with a Brit?

Secondly, Israel has tried very little diplomacy from day 1. Any diplomacy has taken the form of bullying and has just been followed by military action

Thirdly, Israel has never really listened to any demands made by Palestine or any other Arab country. And don't say they are all ridiculous; one demand was the release of child prisoners

Israel's actions are indefensible, so stop trying to defend them

Like hell. Superior firepower has never worked either. :p
good point. every war, skirmish and attack by Israel has failed as well, so i wouldnt look down my nose at democracy if i was you

Firstly, bringing up WW2 and the Nazis is low, really fucking low. You wouldnt bring it up in an argument with a German person so why would you with a Brit?

Secondly, Israel has tried very little diplomacy from day 1. Any diplomacy has taken the form of bullying and has just been followed by military action

Thirdly, Israel has never really listened to any demands made by Palestine or any other Arab country. And don't say they are all ridiculous; one demand was the release of child prisoners

Israel's actions are indefensible, so stop trying to defend themthe world didn't exist only from day 1. we had long history with the diplomacy with terrorists thing.
also, the child was ONE of their demands.
what would they do if they gave them ONE of their demands? give us parts of the soldier?

israel actions are fully defensable. terrorists act of war is perfect reason to crack them down.

good point. every war, skirmish and attack by Israel has failed as well, so i wouldnt look down my nose at democracy if i was you
maybe, but the minute we don't had the super firepower, we will stop to exist.

I don't claim to be an expert on the subject...as I'm not (nor are any of my family or friends) from Israel or Lebanon (or Syria, Iran, Egypt or any other country in the immediate area).

However, the competing thoughts boil down to...

Israel claims (with a fair amount of historical evidence to back it up) that its neighbors do not like it, nor do they want to deal with Israel in a typical diplomatic arena. The neighboring counties do more than just want the destruction of Israel, they have actively waged war in an attempt to achieve this as well as supported groups that have the same goal. They claim these countries now support groups that preform terroist actions (in the true sense of the word, not the watered down version we know of today when every petty criminal in a "terrorist") that unfairly target civilians and are unwilling to fight conventionally (which given the relative military might of a country versus any other "organization" is reasonable).

The Neighboring Countries (not to lump them all together, but for the over generalization of this thread) claim (with a fair amount of historical evidence to back it up) that Israel has invaded/actively waged war in an effort to take territory and taken actions that unfairly target civilians and are overly eager to fight conventionally for any and all perceived transgressions.

My question is what really makes either side morally superior? I'll generally agree that Palestinians got the shaft when Isreal was formed (partially due to UN Bias, partially due to trusting those they thought were their allies), I'll generally agree that Isreal was "in the right" during most of the conflicts up to (and including) the Yom Kippur War. What, however, gives either side the moral authority to say they have been wronged by the actions of others and thus justifying their reaction? Especially in the last 15 years?

israel actions are fully defensable.
no in fact they arent. The only thing defensable is the actions of the resistance and the desruction of so called "Israel"

no in fact they arent. The only thing defensable is the actions of the resistance and the desruction of so called "Israel"
No, just no. Stop it.

No, just no. Stop it.
why hard to hear the truth?

no in fact they arent. The only thing defensable is the actions of the resistance and the desruction of so called "Israel"
hardly.

Some of Israel's claim are legitimate. However, some of the so-called terrorists claims are legitimate too. It's a mess on so many levels that everyone involved is guilty of crimes.

A whole load of people need to reconsider the tone of their posts.

Israel is doing exactly what it has done in nearly every situation in its 20th century history: completely over reacting and using excessive military force. Britain and the US have had plenty of their soldiers captured in Iraq, but the operations to rescue them looked nothing like this and i am almost sure claimed no civilian's lives. I'm not saying the terrorists are defensable, but what Israel is doing is just so wrong. Please stop trying to justify it. Just stop it.

A whole load of people need to reconsider the tone of their posts.
am i doing ok? seriously, i think i am but just dont want to cross the line

Firstly, bringing up WW2 and the Nazis is low, really fucking low. You wouldnt bring it up in an argument with a German person so why would you with a Brit?

Secondly, Israel has tried very little diplomacy from day 1. Any diplomacy has taken the form of bullying and has just been followed by military action

Thirdly, Israel has never really listened to any demands made by Palestine or any other Arab country. And don't say they are all ridiculous; one demand was the release of child prisoners

Israel's actions are indefensible, so stop trying to defend them
A teenager with a gun or bomb is no longer a child, but rather a terrorist. These "child" prisoners are 16 and 17 year old Hamas terrorists.

In this thread...

We have established that Israel is very hated by its neighbours.

What (possibly) led to it...

In 1948, the nation of Israel was established by the British in order to formally give the Jews a home following the Holocaust. In the years before, the Jews migrate there because no one else welcomed them.

During the Great War (World War 1), the Brits decided to take on the mid-east, along with the Austrians in order to kick Turkish ass. During this time, the Ottoman empire, which before this war had occupied which is the modern middle east, including parts of Saudi Arabia and what was one Babylon, lost its hold and all the land that it owned became the segments that make up the Mid-East. The Ottoman Empire also included parts of Northern Africa.

http://www.naqshbandi.org/ottomans/maps/declinemap.gif

Now, imagine you're an Arab living there at this time and there is a sudden influx of foreign people, of non-Muslims. It looks like the Crusades all over, except it's a bunch of Jews and not the Catholics.

The is no difference as far as you're concerned; it's still foreigners coming in and taking your land under religious pretext (Holy Land).

As far as you knew, you were living in an empire, it came tumbling down in a matter of years and now you've got a bunch of funny foreigners who claim that they're persecuted coming and taking your land because their Holy Book says that it belongs to them. But, your holy book says that this land belongs to you...

Of course, this is going to cause a shit load of problems, especially when the new guys get massively armed by the previous invading army who broke up your empire.

Years of occupation and such have allowed for propoganda to spring up, and of course, over time, propoganda becomes twisted, so that eventually, it's not the Brits who are the assholes who took your land but the Jews.

It doesn't help that during a war, you get your ass kicked and some of your land forcibly taken from you.

Tensions don't ebb away; they get worse because you've got a proud neighbour and you're pissed because he won't give you back what you perceive to be yours.

Meanwhile, some really pissed off citizens pick up arms and decide to take care of it themselves, this forming the terrorists organizations.

So... moral of the story? The shit hits the fan and all hell breaks loose.

What's next? Possibly a bigger war because Israel isn't just attacking a bunch of terrorists groups any more, they've gone after a sovereign nation with a standing army.

----------------------

It's not just current propoganda. Their is a historical reason why certain things happen. This crisis is happening because of the way the nations developed and adapted to each other early on...

-----------------------

A wise man once said, "eye for an eye makes the world go blind." I guess Ghandi must''ve been a prophet because that's what's going to happen with this crisis.

--------------------------

It's unfair to compare the IRA to the Mid east terrorists because the climate existed in such a way that it was possible for the IRA to voluntarily disarm, whereas with Hamas and the variations, there doesn't exist such a climate.

--------------------------

My two cents

I think both Israel and Palestine are wrong. Neither are right. Two wrongs never make a right.

The Palestinians kidnapped 3 Israelis, one of which was a settler and the other two which were soldiers.

The Israelis bomb Palestinian civil infrastructure.

One action doesn't justify another.

It's like swatting flies with SCUD missiles...

We could help, but, neither side is really willing to sit down. Intervention won't work because then it would make a mountain out of a mole hole.

My solution? Let them blow each other to fucking bits and when their ready to sit down and talk like adults, the rest of the world can help. But, our help is no good when neither side is willing to make peace truly work.

Yes, Israel has gone too far this time. It's the latest one of their blatant disregard of internationnal law and the sovereign right of their neighbour. And, once again, there will be no repercution on the world stage because of a few coutries who can't seem to understand that Israel need to be reigned in when they go off on massive attacks like those who help no one in the region.

But then, the USA opened that particular can of worms when they opted for the invasion of Irak in order to "protect" their citizen. Can't blame Russia, Israel and others when they use the same line, now do they?

Israel apologist should be ashamed of themselves. Defend Israel all you want when their actions are legitimate. Today, their actions are despicable.

disgusting. israel knows that blatant, overwhelming force is the only think a bunch of extremist zealots can possibly understand. there is no reason israel should meet a capture of three of their soldiers on their turf by genocidal zealots with the capture of only three hezbollah guerillas, because as far as hezbollah is concerned, if he dies he'll be a martyr and if he lives he'll be a hero and they can always find more 19-year old, unemployed muslims looking for someone to blame. theyve got a melting pot where thats concerned, and they need to be shown that they can't torture israelis and not get a reprisal.

basically, hamas and hezbollah need to be dealt with not with words like "peace talks", "negotiations" and "political prisoner release", but rather with words like "carpet bombing", "artillery strike" and "thermobaric warhead"

basically, hamas and hezbollah need to be dealt with not with words like "peace talks", "negotiations" and "political prisoner release", but rather with words like "carpet bombing", "artillery strike" and "thermobaric warhead"

a strategy that has turned Iraq and Afghanistan into happy, functioning, safe and stable societies were suicide bombings aren't a daily occurence.

This debate in the end is immateral, I only hope Isreal restrains itself and doesnt provoke the syrians and iranians into a general war, aslong as this stays a local conflict it will have a tolerable outcome.

a strategy that has turned Iraq and Afghanistan into happy, functioning, safe and stable societies were suicide bombings aren't a daily occurence.
That's the thing, truly forceful strategies weren't used in those situations. Hell, the taliban and al qaeda were allowed to retreat into Pakistan instead of being eradicated.

A teenager with a gun or bomb is no longer a child, but rather a terrorist. These "child" prisoners are 16 and 17 year old Hamas terrorists.

1)They are still legally children and while it is easy to make a point that they ought to be exceptions to this rule, that really shouldnt be done, anywhere

2)The point i was making was that Israel hasn't tried diplomacy in at least the last 20 years

I personally disagree.

Israel has been embroiled in a war by proxy with its neighbours for decades, hence I fail to discern quite why their retaliating now is such an travesty.

That's the thing, truly forceful strategies weren't used in those situations. Hell, the taliban and al qaeda were allowed to retreat into Pakistan instead of being eradicated.
Invasion, in my books, is forceful.
Now by suggesting the carpet bombing of Palestine, you do mean genocide right?

Well it looks like WW III has begun. These are dark times we live in...

Well it looks like WW III has begun. These are dark times we live in...
WWIII? I dont think so, it hasnt even reached the same size as the earlier conflicts. If Iran gets involved though, i think some bigger countries might try and distance theselves.

Once again, it wasn't about destruction of the UK, it was about destruction of Northern Ireland. Comparing a desire for the destruction of Northern Ireland to a desire for the destruction of Israel works. Including the UK as a whole doesn't.

It's like saying someone calling in the early 70s for the destruction of a British supported Bahaman state would have been calling for the destruction of the UK. NI and the Bahamas had a comparable relationship with the UK.

That's why you're inaccurate when you say "Britons". The IRA advocated the destruction of unionists in Northern Ireland. Which is comparable to Hamas etc.

to go off topic for a second, bullshit.

they tried to destroy a sectarian racist state that had official discriminatory policies and allowed the police and loyalists attempt the ethnic cleansing of catholic homes. it needed and deserved to be destroyed.

A teenager with a gun or bomb is no longer a child, but rather a terrorist. These "child" prisoners are 16 and 17 year old Hamas terrorists.

Actually their request was for those under 16. In other words, prisoners like the 12 year old arrested for throwing a rock at an APC.

I'll generally agree that Isreal was "in the right" during most of the conflicts up to (and including) the Yom Kippur War.

Apparently you don’t study much history.

Let us look at the wars: 48 – yup, I have to give that one to the Israelis (though the locals got the shaft on the creation, the attack wasn’t appropriate).

The Suez crisis in 56 was an alliance between Britain and France to occupy and gain control of the Suez canal. They did this by having a secret agreement with Israel to attack Egypt.

Additionally: this is where Ariel Sharon came into military power and started the policy of civilian reprisals (massacre civilians in retaliation for guerilla activity – no civilians supporting guerillas, no guerillas – thus every man, woman, and child is a valid military target) - also why Sharon is largely considered to have committed war crimes and crimes against humanity.

France and Britain threw troops in under the guise of UN ‘peacekeepers’ (amazing how the peacekeepers decided to bomb Egyptian positions and infrastructure and supported Israeli troops). This invasion stopped when the US finally smacked Britain and France down for doing something so blatantly reprehensible.

Unfortunately Egypt had to endure these troops occupying the area (in the name of keeping them safe of course) for another 10 years. When Egypt finally got the foreign troops who assisted the invasion off of its soil, it built up its military so it could defend itself in case Israel took the opportunity to attack again. And this is indeed what happened in 67.

Once again, Israel was the one that attacked – despite strenuous objections from the international community. While Egypt blocking the Straits of Tiran was a difficult problem, it in no way justified the Israeli plan to hold capture and hold civilians hostage until the straits were reopened. During this conflict Israel also had a policy of executing some captured prisoners of war – some of which they paid compensation for, but for many they did not (this is corroborated by the IDF soldiers themselves, not a baseless allegation).

The 73 or Yom Kippur War was the one where Israel was attacked. The cause of the war, however, was not some unrelated hatred of Israel but was an attempt to recover the land Israel took when they invaded in 67.

In all of this, the only time I do not blame Israel for the conflict is the 48 war – which the Arabs saw as a war of independence for the indigenous population. I do not wholly support this view, but I cannot wholly condemn it either – however military invasion was not the appropriate response of those holding such views.

The Yom Kippur War is of questionable validity – while Israel was the defender in this one, their occupation of Egyptian and Syrian land was a major cause of the conflict – thus Israel is by no means blameless.

This was a little longer than I intended, but I cannot let anyone make such ignorant statements. Israel is not some innocent little child; it is a bully and an aggressor.

Another view.

Take a close look at this PRESENT DAY MAP of the Middle East in which you can see that 22 Arab and/or Muslim [Iran is not considered Arab] nations completely engulf Israel. If someone can explain to me how "expansionist Israel" has "taken over" the Middle East, please email me! The Arab countries occupy 640 times the land mass as does Israel and outnumber the Jews of Israel by nearly fifty to one. So much for Arab propaganda!

Now notice the TOTAL area of Israel and Jordan. This was referred to as "Palestine" and mandated under British administration following World War I (see next map below). How convenient that today's Arab propagandists forget that land east of the Jordan River was also part of "Palestine" and is, in fact, the Arab-Palestinian State!





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From 1517-1917 Turkey's Ottoman Empire controlled a vast Arab empire, a portion of which is today Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine. During World War I (1914-1918), Turkey supported Germany. When Germany was defeated, so were the Turks. In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was "mandated" to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France... and "Palestine" (today's Jordan, Israel and "West Bank") was mandated to Great Britain.
Because no other peoples had ever established a national homeland in "Palestine" since the Jews had done it 2,000 years before, the British "looked favorably" upon the creation of a Jewish National Homeland throughout ALL of Palestine. The Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel. This Jewish effort to revitalize the land attracted an equally large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions. There was never any attempt to "rid" the area of what few Arabs there or those Arab masses that immigrated into this area along with the Jews!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1923, the British divided the "Palestine" portion of the Ottoman Empire into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only west of the Jordan river. In effect, the British had "chopped off" 75% of the originally proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian nation called Trans-Jordan (meaning "across the Jordan River"). This territory east of the Jordan River was given to Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia) who was not even an Arab-"Palestinian!" This portion of Palestine was renamed Trans-Jordan. Trans-Jordan and would again be renamed "Jordan" in 1946. In other words, the eastern 3/4 of Palestine would be renamed TWICE, in effect, erasing all connection to the name "Palestine!" However, the bottom line is that the Palestinian Arabs had THEIR "Arab Palestinian" homeland. The remaining 25% of Palestine (now WEST of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now.
Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory west of the Jordan River launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron massacres of 1929 and later during the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt." The British at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became painfully clear to the Palestinian Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Palestinian Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs Palestinians.... thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces [IDF]. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgun led by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British. Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the Palestine matter over to the United Nations.
The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted... the Arab Palestinians rejected. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine... both east AND west of the Jordan River.

Our Palestinian Cousins started the '48 war, and in so doing released the warlike appetites of a nation of survivors, a people with no place to run, who had repressed their rage for millennia, and had now earned full title to it!

On May 14, 1948 the "Palestinian" Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "ISRAEL" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jewish thugs, but because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arab Palestinians are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight. Their shame is so great because in their eyes running from Jews was like running from women. So much for the blatant lie about Jews throwing out all the [Palestinian] Arabs!

The remaining 30% either (1) saw for themselves that these Jews would fight and die for their new nation and decided to pack up and leave or (2) were driven off the land as a normal consequence of war.

When the 19 month war ended, Israel survived despite a 1% loss of its entire population! Those Arabs who did not flee became today's Israeli-Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of "Palestinian Arab refugees."

The Arab propagandists and apologists almost never mentioned that in 1948, Arab armies launched a war against a one-day-old Israel. Instead he focused on the main consequence of that war: the creation of Arab refugees, stating that Israel "short of genocide" expelled 800,000 of them. This not only disagrees with UN estimates of a bit over 400,000 refugees but also ignores the fact that most of the Arabs/Palestinians were encouraged to leave by the Arab World itself!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The end result of the 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence was the creation of a Jewish State slightly larger than that which was proposed by the 1947 United Nations Resolution 181. What remained of that almost-created second Arab Palestinian State was gobbled up by (1) Egypt (occupying the Gaza Strip) and by (2) Trans-Jordan (occupying Judea-Samaria (a.k.a. the "West Bank" of the Jordan River) and Jerusalem. In the next year (1950) Trans-Jordan formally merged this West Bank territory into itself and granted all those "Palestinian" Arabs living there Jordanian citizenship. Since Trans-Jordan was then no longer confined to one side of the Jordan River, it renamed itself simply "Jordan." In the final analysis, the Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 85% of the original territory of Palestine... called Jordan but in reality their ARAB "Palestinian state! But that was still not 100% and thus the conflict between Arab and Jew for "Palestine" would continue through four more wars and continuous Arab terrorist attacks upon the Israeli citizenry. It continues to this very day.
From 1949-67 when all of Judea-Samaria [West Bank & Jerusalem] and Gaza ... were 100% under Arab [Jordanian & Egyptian] control, no effort was EVER made to create a second Palestinian State for the Arabs living there. Surely you do not expect Israel to now provide these same Arabs with their own country when their fellow Arabs failed to do so! And isn't it curious how Arafat and his PLO (formed in 1964) discovered their "ancient" identity and a need for "self-determination" and "human dignity" on this very same West Bank ONLY AFTER Israel regained this territory (three years later in 1967) following Jordan's attempt attempt to destroy Israel! Why was no request ever made upon King Hussein of Jordan by the Arabs living on the West Bank when he occupied it? Is it logical that the PLO was formed in 1964 to regain the lands they would lose three years later in 1967? This sort of logic makes sense only to those who who have not learned that the PLO was formed to DESTROY Israel. And that is STILL their goal! A cosmetic name change from PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) to PA (Palestinian Authority) does not change the stripes on THIS tiger!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Throughout much of May 1967, the Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian armies mobilized along Israel's narrow and seemingly indefensible borders in preparation for a massive invasion to eliminate the State of Israel. The battle cry heard throughout the Arab world was then, as it continues to be... "Slaughter the Jews" and "Throw the Jews into the Sea!" But the Jews of Israel, remembering 2,000 years of being butchered, gassed, burned and skinned (eg. The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, the Arab rampages of early Palestine and particularly the Holocaust), planned and executed a perfect pre-emptive strike against Egypt. Within two hours the Egyptian Air Force did not exist... most of its planes destroyed while still on the runways! Unaware that the Egyptians had no more air force, King Hussein of Jordan, launched his attack from the his West Bank into Israel's belly while Syrian troops prepared to descend down the Golan Heights high ground into northern Israel.

Now for some facts about "occupation." Firstly, the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians lost Gaza, the West Bank and Golan Heights (respectively) by participating in a failed attempt at genocide against the Children of Israel. Had Israel lost this 1967 defensive war, the Arab-Palestinians and their Arab allies would have raped, butchered or driven out every Israeli they could get their hands on and gobbled up all of Israel. Now, 35+ years later and despite the fact that Israel won a war BROUGHT UPON THEM, the Israelis are still willing to allow the Arab-Palestinians to have a state on much of the West Bank and Gaza if only they will stop sending their suicide/homicide bombers into the heart of Israel! (Talk about misplaced compassion!)

From 1948 to 1967, Egypt ruled Gaza, Syria ruled the Golan Heights, while Jordan ruled the West Bank. They could have set up independent Arab-Palestinian states in any or all of those territories, but they didn't even consider it. Instead, in 1967 they used the Golan Heights, Gaza and the West bank to launch a war that was unambiguously aimed at destroying Israel, which is how Israel came into possession of those territories in the first place.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After ONLY six days of air, sea and hand-to-hand ground warfare, Israel defeated all three Arab armies along three separate fronts, taking control of the entire Sinai Desert from Egypt, the 37mile x 12mile Golan Heights from Syria and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem and its Old City) from Jordan. The God of Israel was surely watching over His children! Most importantly was the return to Israel of its holy 3,000 year old capital city of Jerusalem along the western edge of the West Bank... the same Jerusalem from which all Jews had been denied access for the 19 years (1948-1967) following Jordan's seizure and control over it following the first Arab-Israeli War of 1948-9.
Unfortunately, the world saw things differently and considered Israel an "occupier" of this disputed "West Bank" and the Gaza Strip along with the 850,000 Palestinian Arabs living there. These Arabs would refer to themselves as "refugees" and joined the masses of refugees from the first Arab-Israeli war of 1948-9. Once again Israel was forced to fight a battle for survival and, sadly, once again Palestinian [in reality, Jordanian and Egyptian] Arabs becoming refugees by their own actions, the actions of their leaders and from the actions of fellow Arabs from neighboring states!
ISRAEL SCREWS UP TOO!

Israel was responsible for bringing about some of its own problems. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were packed and ready to leave following their 1967 defeat. Suddenly the victorious one-eyed IDF General Moshe Dayan persuaded them to stay. This singular act stunned no one more than the Arab enemy himself who could not believe such an incredible manifestation of Jewish madness! After all, the Arabs knew what THEY would have done to the Jews if they had won! Dayan's plan was to educate them, offer them modern medical treatment, provide them with employment both in the West Bank, Gaza AND inside Israel Proper itself ... living amongst each other in hopes of building bridges to the Arab world. Israel is now paying dearly for this typically naive "Leftist" gesture. That "bridge" led to two Intifadas and world-wide Arab-Palestinian terrorism. From a frightened and defeated enemy, these "Palestinian" Arabs under Israel's jurisdiction turned into a confident, hateful and dangerous enemy now on their way toward forming a terrorist state determined to destroy Israel!


Note: When people say Jordan (first called Trans-Jordan) is an Arab-"Palestinian" State, they are correct! Jordan accounts for 3/4 of Palestine's original land mass. Though they may call themselves "Jordanians," they are culturally, ethnically, historically and religiously no different than the Arab-"Palestinians" on the "West Bank." Even the flag of Jordan and the flag of the proposed 2nd Arab-Palestinian state on the West Bank / Gaza look almost identical. So, if the Arab-Palestinians and Jordanians think of themselves as one and the same, why should WE fall for the lie that the Arab Palestinians west of the Jordan River are any different from the Jordanian Arabs on its eastern shore?


Jordanian Flag

Proposed Palestinian Flag






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Usually when one side starts a war and loses both the war AND some territory, no one on the planet would expect the winner to give back anything! This not only sounds preposterous, it IS preposterous! But the Jews (I hate to admit) had such an insane obsession of wanting the world to love them that they were willing to give back the entire Sinai Desert (oil fields, air bases and endless miles of security buffer) to Egypt for a piece of paper. Thus, in 1982 Egypt regained their Sinai and Israel lost a massive buffer against any future Egyptian aggression! Thus far, Egypt has not aggressed against Israel militarily; however, the basest, anti-Semitic vile to come out of Egypt is not unlike the worse of Nazi anti-Jewish propaganda! This 1982 Camp David Peace Accord has to be the coldest peace deal in history!
Israel still occupies Syria's Golan Heights which, prior to the 1967 war, had been by Syria used solely for terrorist incursions into and artillery bombardment upon Israel's northeastern settlements. The Golan should never be given back to Israel's most vicious enemy! And of course, Israel still "occupies" the West Bank with its ONE MILLION TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND and Gaza with its EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND "Palestinian" Arabs. Had Israel done to these Arabs what the Arabs would have done to the Jews had THEY won, she would have expelled these hostile Arabs and made it officially part of a Greater Israel! But by remaining an "occupier," Israel set herself up for a campaign of vicious propaganda, the scope and intensity of which the world has never before seen!

And a conclusion ...
More on "Palestinian Nationalism
and the
Real War Against Israel...

The Middle East war is not now and never was a conflict between Israelis/Jews on the one hand and Palestinians on the other. In fact, the Arab-"Palestinians", while currently the perpetrators of most of the anti-Jewish atrocities, were never a very important part of the conflict. In fact, before about 1970, virtually no one in the world considered the Middle East conflict to be one between Israelis and Palestinians.
The term "Palestinian" itself had referred to Israeli Jews back in the 1940s, and had been slowly deconstructed and redefined to refer to the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. The Middle East Conflict was always a war by Arabs against Jews, not a conflict between Israelis and "Palestinians." The war was repackaged as a conflict between Jews and Palestinians as a public relations gimmick by the Arab fascist regimes. These regimes had never had any interest in "Palestinians," in creating a "Palestinian" state, or in "Palestinian nationalism" before 1967. That is because Palestinian nationalism did not and DOES NOT exist. The Palestinians were a regional group of Arabs having virtually no cultural nor national distinctive traits separating them from Syrians, Lebanese, and Jordanians. They are all basically Arabs!.

The bulk of what are called "Palestinian Arabs" are members of families who migrated into the Land of Israel beginning in the late 19th century. Palestinian nationalism is a mislabeling of Arab nationalism. Arab nationalism exists, although it is closely bound up with Islamic nationalism and even Islamism. Palestinian nationalism, however, is a phantom. It is nothing more than genocidal hatred of Jews!

The Arab assaults and aggressions against Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968, and 1973 had nothing to do with Palestinians. The Palestinian terror campaign would itself be easy to suppress today and eradicate if the Middle East conflict were really a Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Israel would simply obliterate the terrorists and expel their supporters to Syria and Lebanon. The Middle East war continues because it is really an Arab-Israeli war, not an Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It is also in large part a war between barbarism and civilization. In many ways an Islamic religious jihad against the Jews.


.



debate ?

source
http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

lads, my OP clearly stated that there are other threads to argue about the historical context to this.

can we try and keep this one as a discussion of whats happening right now, its rights and wrongs and implications.

you can support israel and think this action is over the top, and to suggest evertone with reservations about the scale of casualties is an apologist for terrorists or anti semetic is a low blow and a clear attempt to divert the discussion elsewhere

Israel blames Iran and Syria, however I am not sure if they will launch an offensive strike against Iran.

I don't buy how Iran is plotting these attacks as a distraction from its Nuclear problems.

The logic doesn't add up.

WWIII? I dont think so, it hasnt even reached the same size as the earlier conflicts. If Iran gets involved though, i think some bigger countries might try and distance theselves.

Lets hope N. Korea doesnt take advantage of this situation... maybe Iran and N. Korea are conspiring together? The Iranians have purchased missle technology from North Korea so we all know they have a somewhat close relationship.
This situation could also involve Syria , a nation with missles that carry chemical warheads capable of destroying Israel. If the battle escalates and syria uses these weapons on Israel , Israel wouldnt hesitate to use a nuclear weapon and destroy Damascus. This is a VERY serious situation and could potentially ignite a world wide conflict.

And the Other sides view....

Aided by the Arabs, the British captured Palestine from the Ottoman Turks in 1917-18. The Arabs revolted against the Turks because the British had promised them, in correspondence (1915-16) with Shareef Husein ibn Ali of Mecca (1856-1931), the independence of their countries after the war . Britain , however, also made other, conflicting commitments in the secret Sykes -Picot agreement with France and Russia (1916), it promised to divide and rule the region with its allies . In a third agreement , the Balfour Declaration of 1917, Britain promised the Jews a Jewish "national home" in Palestine.

This promise was subsequently incorporated in the mandate conferred on Britain by the League of Nations in 1922 . During their mandate (1922-48) the British found their contradictory promises to the Jewish and Palestinian communities difficult to reconcile. The Zionists envisaged large-scale Jewish immigration , and some spoke of a Jewish state constituting all of Palestine . Palestinians , however, rejected Britain's right to promise their country to a third party and feared dispossession by the Zionists; anti-Zionist attacks occurred in Jerusalem (1920) and Jaffa (1921).

A 1922 statement of British policy denied Zionist claims to all of Palestine and limited Jewish immigration , but reaffirmed support for a Jewish national home. British proposed establishing a legislative council, Palestinians rejected this council as discriminatory.

After 1928, when Jewish immigration increased somewhat, British policy on the subject seesawed under conflicting Arab-Jewish pressures . Immigration rose sharply after the installation (1933) of the Nazi regime in Germany; in 1935 nearly 62,000 Jews entered Palestine.

Fear of Jewish domination was the principal cause of the Arab revolt that broke out in 1936 and continued intermittently until 1939. By that time Britain had again restricted Jewish immigration and purchases of land.

The struggle for Palestine, which abated during World War II, resumed in 1945 . The horrors of the Holocaust produced world sympathy for European Jews and for Zionism , and although Britain still refused to admit 100,000 Jewish to Palestine , many Jewish found their way there illegally.

Various plans for solving the Palestine problem were rejected by one party or the other . Britain finally declared the mandate unworkable and turned the problem over to the UN in April 1947. The Jews and the Palestinians prepared for a showdown . Although the Palestinians outnumbered the Jews (1300000 to 600000), the latter were better prepared . They had a semiautonomous government, led by David Ben-Gurion , and their military, the Haganah, was well trained and experienced . The Palestinians, on the other hand, had never recovered from the Arab revolt , and most of their leaders were in exile.

The Mufti of Jerusalem , their principal spokesman, refused to accept Jewish statehood . When UN proposed partition in November 1947, he rejected the plan while the Jews accepted it . In the military struggle that followed, the Palestinians were defeated . Violence was used on both sides.

Israel was established on May 14, 1948. Five Arab armies , coming to the aid of the Palestinians , immediately attacked it. Uncoordinated and outnumbered, they were defeated by Israeli forces. Israel enlarged its territory . Jordan took the West Bank of the Jordan River, and Egypt took the Gaza Strip. ( Israel occupied these lands after the Six Day War of 1967. ) The war produced 780,000 Palestinian refugees. About half probably left out of fear and panic , while the rest were forced out to make room for Jewish immigrants from Europe and from the Arab world. The Palestinians spread throughout the neighboring countries, where they have maintained their Palestinian national identity and the desire to return to their homeland.



source

http://www.palestinehistory.com/palst.htm#05



Get ready for WW III ...unless the world unites against terrorist attacks .
either force negotiations by condemning the hamas and hezbolla etc. and the States that support them...and do it in one voice ..as a united front .
accept the fact that israel EXIST and will not be removed by force .
AND then after the security of israel is guaranteed ..you can negotiate.

No one has the balls to not be Chamberlain and appease the terrorist .

so history as usual will repeat itself ..the puppet strings will be pulled ..your economy ...the world economy will be ruined...and the only winners will be the dead .

the rest of those left will lament the fact that nothing was done to nip this shit in the bud . they were too busy trying to figure out what side to be on and what was in it for them to realise they just lost it all .

keep letting the maniac in iran manipulate events and let syria sit back annd sponsor those firing rockets and deliberately provoking Israel to act ...

go ahead continue walking blindly through a minefield.

support giving Iran nukes..so they can pop one using hamas or hezzbolla or whatever proxy they want to pull the strings on ....

Sit by blissfully ignorant ...while you cry about isreal over reacting to being attacked from foriegn soil AGAIN .

like you would let someone fire rockets at you from germany if you lived in France ...while attacks were made from spain to kidnap french soldiers...


I am SURE that would go over well .

sit back and watch WW III .

Israel blames Iran and Syria, however I am not sure if they will launch an offensive strike against Iran.

I don't buy how Iran is plotting these attacks as a distraction from its Nuclear problems.

The logic doesn't add up.


Destabilising the region will jump oil prices up to 100.00 a barrel and it sends
a warning to anyone considering sanctions against the monkey in iran for his nucular program .

get it ?

deleted double post............

Lets hope N. Korea doesnt take advantage of this situation... maybe Iran and N. Korea are conspiring together? The Iranians have purchased missle technology from North Korea so we all know they have a somewhat close relationship.
This situation could also involve Syria , a nation with missles that carry chemical warheads capable of destroying Israel. If the battle escalates and syria uses these weapons on Israel , Israel wouldnt hesitate to use a nuclear weapon and destroy Damascus. This is a VERY serious situation and could potentially ignite a world wide conflict.
I think (hope) any country would hesitate to use a nuclear weapon. Even Israel which isnt big on hesitation. And Im not sure about the likelihood of chemical attacks. But maybe..
As for north korea, thats a whole different ballgame. North Korea is surrounded by nuclear enabled major powers. Middle East ugly and North Korea ugly are different levels of ugliness.

like you would let someone fire rockets at you from germany if you lived in France ...while attacks were made from spain to kidnap french soldiers...

All i know is that if this affects me in anyway i will be pissed. I like living in western europe and ill be damned if im going to let a bunch of fundamentalists mess that up for me.

Another view.

An excessive cut and past containing long discredited nonsense. Read "The Palestinian refugee problem revisited".


No, but it did/does want to destroy Northern Ireland and take over its land. Northern Ireland was, until 1973, autonomous with its own Cabinet, Prime Minister, Parliament and other governmental organisations, Governor (Queen's Rep.) etc. much in the same way as Canada, Australia etc.

It was more or less as sovereign as other British territories like the Bahamas were at the time. And the IRA wanted to destroy it and take over its land.
.

Contrary to what more romantic nationalists might believe, had the Norths catholic population been treated as equals within the statelet, nationalism would have taken - at most - the form of the SNP or Welsh nationalist party. However 50 years of a sectarian state, followed by beating the peaceful civil rights movement off the street put paid to that. Primarily it was a struggle driven by the need to end inequality within that society.


And then when you go about peace negotiations, pull out of lands and so forth, they still attack you from all sides. .

Well when Israel actually does get back on its own side of the border, we'll see if that happens....


There already is essentially an intifada. And the Palestinians and Hezbollah attacked first.. .

Who is still occupying parts of Lebanon, as well as the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?

The fact that the IDF, which is by far more moral than the US army (shall I remind you the pretty pictures of citizens murdered in Iraq and the tortures in your terrorist prisons by american soldiers?), .

Well, well well. Who'd have thought a nation that uses torture, is violation of international law for 40 years and would be a pariah state were it not for the US would be on the moral highground.........

then they start the 2nd intifada, and the current bloodship..

Nothing to do with the man who is known as "bulldozer" arriving on Temple Mount? The one who aided the christian militias?

this is exactly why the IDF does everything in its power to avoid it while the terrorist attack mostly citizens..

Yep, which is why it kills 5 times more civillians than the Palestinians. And thjose children, with their mysterious bullet -attracting qualities. If only Palestinians had spent the aid money on bullet proofing their children, they wouldnt be in the state they're not allowed to have now......

like you would let someone fire rockets at you from germany if you lived in France ...while attacks were made from spain to kidnap french soldiers...


I am SURE that would go over well .

.

GAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupos_Antiterroristas_de_Liberaci%C3%B3n) regularly attacked in France, they were operated by shady elements of the Spanish Government, and guess what, no airports, power stations or houses with 10 children got harmed.

do a bit of research next time