NationStates Jolt Archive

It's been a while since I did a thread on this, but some recent comment highlighted for me once again the fact that a lot of people simply don't know what it means to be transgendered. It's a topic near and dear to my heart as once of my brothers is transgendered (so actually my sister), and while most people I explain that too seem to understand (I guess it's the company I keep), there are many I've come across who just look blank or uncomfortable.

So. Transgendered people are born the opposite gender to their sex. Simple. It's not a whim, not a sudden, "Hey, I'd like to be a girl (guy)" for a week. Many transgendered people are aware of their true gender very early on. My brother figures he was about five when he knew.

Transsexuals are those who have had the operations and associated therapy to align their sex with their gender.

Crossdressers are something different. You can dress as the opposite gender, but still be aligned physically with your gender. In fact, many cross-dressers are straight males. Sometimes crossdressers are labelled 'trannies', which isn't really accurate.

Intersexed people are those born with ambiguous genitalia. I have never seen proof of a true hermaphrodite (someone with functioning male and female genitalia). More common is the presence of genitalia that is no immediately identifiable as either male or female. Intersexed people, traditionally, were assigned a sex, and the genitalia that did not fit that sex was removed. It is more common in the West to let the child grow up and decide what to do, though quite often, a gender is still assigned.

There are more transgendered people out there than you probably realise, and while it's been something snickered at, or joked about but mostly avoided in mainstream culture for many years, it is finally something that is 'coming out' and becoming more visible. I see this as very positive.

So now you know, Atlantian Islands;)

So which group does Ann Coulter belong to?

So which group does Ann Coulter belong to?
Depends if the dick is still there. :p

Sometimes a female is born in a mans body and vice versa. It happens. I believe homosexuality is a slight modification to the gender in the same way.

Depends if the dick is still there. :p
We should get someone to check.

We should get someone to check.

Theres not enough compensation in the universe.

So now you know, Atlantian Islands;)

Very very strange stuff. So hermaphrodites have a working vagina and non working dick?

This guy might do it.

http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/dirtyjobs/splash.html

Hell, he'd even televise it and traumatize all the viewers.

We should get someone to check.

I'd do her....just for the power shed sexually transfer over to me.

Call it a power-fuck.

Theres not enough compensation in the universe.
No one said you had to actually ... you know ... photos would be sufficient. Creepy, but sufficient.

*goes away to drive that image out of over-heated brain :headbang: *

So which group does Ann Coulter belong to?
I think she's not actually human.

It's been a while since I did a thread on this, but some recent comment highlighted for me once again the fact that a lot of people simply don't know what it means to be transgendered. It's a topic near and dear to my heart as once of my brothers is transgendered (so actually my sister), and while most people I explain that too seem to understand (I guess it's the company I keep), there are many I've come across who just look blank or uncomfortable.

So. Transgendered people are born the opposite gender to their sex. Simple. It's not a whim, not a sudden, "Hey, I'd like to be a girl (guy)" for a week. Many transgendered people are aware of their true gender very early on. My brother figures he was about five when he knew.

Transsexuals are those who have had the operations and associated therapy to align their sex with their gender.

Crossdressers are something different. You can dress as the opposite gender, but still be aligned physically with your gender. In fact, many cross-dressers are straight males. Sometimes crossdressers are labelled 'trannies', which isn't really accurate.

Intersexed people are those born with ambiguous genitalia. I have never seen proof of a true hermaphrodite (someone with functioning male and female genitalia). More common is the presence of genitalia that is no immediately identifiable as either male or female. Intersexed people, traditionally, were assigned a sex, and the genitalia that did not fit that sex was removed. It is more common in the West to let the child grow up and decide what to do, though quite often, a gender is still assigned.

There are more transgendered people out there than you probably realise, and while it's been something snickered at, or joked about but mostly avoided in mainstream culture for many years, it is finally something that is 'coming out' and becoming more visible. I see this as very positive.


I know a man (biologically male from all physical aspects) who can't make up his mind, and keeps setting up the appointment to get changed and then cancelling. He dresses in women's clothing only when he goes out clubbing, and wears men's clothing at work and at home. He has a lot of feminine mannerisms, and has sex with men, although he claims that he's not a homosexual - he says he wants to be a woman.

I call that "Confused".

Very very strange stuff. So hermaphrodites have a working vagina and non working dick?
No...hermaphrodites would have to have functioning male and female genitalia to exist...again, I've never actually seen evidence of such. Usually, what you have is a person who is intersexed...they may have a part that is either a very small penis or an engorged clitoris...and perhaps a vagina...there are many variations. Sometimes a child is born with a vagina, but no womb...etc. The parents used to have to choose which sex the child was going to be, and surgery would be used to try to make the genitals fit into that sex.

But these are not transgendered people by the way...and it really isn't all that strange...it's rare, but happens more frequently than you might think.

I know a man (biologically male from all physical aspects) who can't make up his mind, and keeps setting up the appointment to get changed and then cancelling. He dresses in women's clothing only when he goes out clubbing, and wears men's clothing at work and at home. He has a lot of feminine mannerisms, and has sex with men, although he claims that he's not a homosexual - he says he wants to be a woman.

I call that "Confused".
Perhaps...but don't label all transgendered people as such.

My brother has been certain of his real gender since he was a child. He couldn't be very open about it growing up, for obvious reasons...but he is fine with who he is. He is against surgery though. In all other respects, he lives as a woman.

No...hermaphrodites would have to have functioning male and female genitalia to exist...again, I've never actually seen evidence of such. Usually, what you have is a person who is intersexed...they may have a part that is either a very small penis or an engorged clitoris...and perhaps a vagina...there are many variations. Sometimes a child is born with a vagina, but no womb...etc. The parents used to have to choose which sex the child was going to be, and surgery would be used to try to make the genitals fit into that sex.

But these are not transgendered people by the way...and it really isn't all that strange...it's rare, but happens more frequently than you might think.

Well its strange to me seeing as I dont think about this kind of stuff or know anybody like this or know anybody who thinks about this kind of stuff.

Well its strange to me seeing as I dont think about this kind of stuff or know anybody like this or know anybody who thinks about this kind of stuff.
Now you do.

I know a man (biologically male from all physical aspects) who can't make up his mind, and keeps setting up the appointment to get changed and then cancelling. He dresses in women's clothing only when he goes out clubbing, and wears men's clothing at work and at home. He has a lot of feminine mannerisms, and has sex with men, although he claims that he's not a homosexual - he says he wants to be a woman.

I call that "Confused".

"scared to go through with it" could be another name.

If having a bit of both, for a lack of a better word, is transgender, doesn't that make everyone else cisgender, if you follow the latin root?

That would just be really cool...

"scared to go through with it" could be another name.
No doubt...this is major surgery we're talking about, people! I mean...I've made appointments three times to get my foot operated on (bone spur) and cancelled each time because I just can't stand being put under...am I confused?

No doubt...this is major surgery we're talking about, people! I mean...I've made appointments three times to get my foot operated on (bone spur) and cancelled each time because I just can't stand being put under...am I confused?

He's been "confused" or "scared" for over 25 years.

Perhaps...but don't label all transgendered people as such.

My brother has been certain of his real gender since he was a child. He couldn't be very open about it growing up, for obvious reasons...but he is fine with who he is. He is against surgery though. In all other respects, he lives as a woman.

I've known for as long as I can remember.

Well, maybe known isn't the proper word. It would probably be more accurate to saw I was aware.

He's been "confused" or "scared" for over 25 years.

Maybe it's what he really wants, but is too scared of the possible social consequences of his actions.

He's been "confused" or "scared" for over 25 years.
About the surgery maybe...doesn't sound like she's all that confused in other ways.

You say she dresses female sometimes and male at other times...well that can be pretty common, and it mostly has to do with the reactions of others. Kind of like, I don't wear the same outfit to work as I do to a Cuban nightclub. 'Dressing male' is akin to 'dressing conservatively' in a workplace where people are not necessarily going to be okay with you coming in with high heels and a slinky dress.

Maybe it's what he really wants, but is too scared of the possible social consequences of his actions.
His only comment on social consequences so far is his nearly continuous harassment by police.

They pull him over for fun, just to joke about him.

He's been accused of being a male prostitute before (not true), and they constantly question him about it.

His only comment on social consequences so far is his nearly continuous harassment by police.

They pull him over for fun, just to joke about him.

He's been accused of being a male prostitute before (not true), and they constantly question him about it.
Well, I think that kind of treatment would adversely affect anyone.

If having a bit of both, for a lack of a better word, is transgender, doesn't that make everyone else cisgender, if you follow the latin root?

That would just be really cool...
Actually, the term cisgendered is considered the courteous way to refer to people who are not transgendered. If we refer to non-trangendered people as "normal" or "natural" men and women, we imply that transgenderd people are abnormal or unnatural.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgendered

My brother has had to put up with a lot of crap in his life because of his gender. Thankfully he's 6'4" and built like a brick wall...even though he somehow manages to look great in a black dress and pearls...

His only comment on social consequences so far is his nearly continuous harassment by police.

They pull him over for fun, just to joke about him.

He's been accused of being a male prostitute before (not true), and they constantly question him about it.

Well, then it's hardly a surprise that he's scared when that's the reception he gets when only crossdressing. The reception he could get if he went into transition could be far worse, and I suspect he knows that.

Well, then it's hardly a surprise that he's scared when that's the reception he gets when only crossdressing. The reception he could get if he went into transition could be far worse, and I suspect he knows that.
Yes, not all is tolerant bliss...and I know very few transgendered people who have NOT experienced violence because of their gender...

Actually, the term cisgendered is considered the courteous way to refer to people who are not transgendered. If we refer to non-trangendered people as "normal" or "natural" men and women, we imply that transgenderd people are abnormal or unnatural.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgendered

*Brain Parachutes out of back of head*

Transgendered people are born the opposite gender to their sex. Simple. It's not a whim, not a sudden, "Hey, I'd like to be a girl (guy)" for a week. Many transgendered people are aware of their true gender very early on. My brother figures he was about five when he knew.

To be honest, after looking this up on on the internet and reading your OP...this sounds alot more like a mental illness than anything else...people like this need clinical help...not social acceptance and recognition.

I have a nephew who believes himself to be a girl trapped in a boy's body, he prefers that I use female pronouns when I speak to him (but says to use the male when I speak to others or to his parents so they don't get confused)

anyway, how young can you really be sure? I would assume it wasn't something that just hits you one day, I mean you would have to just "feel different" your whole life right?

I am trying to understand really, the whole thing is new to me, but I feel like if I ask him too many questions he will get uncomfortable or be afraid to talk to me.

I have a nephew who believes himself to be a girl trapped in a boy's body, he prefers that I use female pronouns when I speak to him (but says to use the male when I speak to others or to his parents so they don't get confused)

anyway, how young can you really be sure? I would assume it wasn't something that just hits you one day, I mean you would have to just "feel different" your whole life right?

I am trying to understand really, the whole thing is new to me, but I feel like if I ask him too many questions he will get uncomfortable or be afraid to talk to me.

Dont you think that maybe he needs some kind of medical/clinical help?

Surely that cant be right and normal. I'm not trying to be mean, just honest.

Dont you think that maybe he needs some kind of medical/clinical help?
probably, it's a hard thing to go through regardless I suppose. I thnk I just assumed that his hormones were off balance, I mean if he's got a lot of estrogen running around in his body he would feel off right?

Surely that cant be right and normal. I'm not trying to be mean, just honest.
just because something is abnormal doesn't mean it's bad. ;)

To be honest, after looking this up on on the internet and reading your OP...this sounds alot more like a mental illness than anything else...people like this need clinical help...not social acceptance and recognition.
Yes well, homosexuality was considered a mental illness too. Maybe everything out of the norm should be a mental illness.

I have a nephew who believes himself to be a girl trapped in a boy's body, he prefers that I use female pronouns when I speak to him (but says to use the male when I speak to others or to his parents so they don't get confused)

anyway, how young can you really be sure? I would assume it wasn't something that just hits you one day, I mean you would have to just "feel different" your whole life right?

I am trying to understand really, the whole thing is new to me, but I feel like if I ask him too many questions he will get uncomfortable or be afraid to talk to me.
I suspect she'd be quite happy to talk to you...likely she doesn't have other people to discuss this with. From what I understand, second-hand account here...it's something you know from the moment you become aware of gender at all. It's something that is always there...not something that just shows up one day.

Also be aware that transgendered youths are at particular risk for suicide. It's a hard issue to deal with, and part of the reason for that is the lack of wider understanding.

Dont you think that maybe he needs some kind of medical/clinical help?

Surely that cant be right and normal. I'm not trying to be mean, just honest.
It's been tried, and it has failed miserably. It is not a mental illness. In some societies, it is completely accepted...I think it's an issue with society, not with the individual in terms of 'normality'.

Dont you think that maybe he needs some kind of medical/clinical help?

Surely that cant be right and normal. I'm not trying to be mean, just honest.

I'm sure the voices aren't normal either, but they don't bother me too much. :)

Examples of transgendered people in certain societies:

Hijra ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28South_Asia%29)

Fa'afafine ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%27afafine)

Kathoey ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey)

Two-spirited ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit)

probably, it's a hard thing to go through regardless I suppose. I thnk I just assumed that his hormones were off balance, I mean if he's got a lot of estrogen running around in his body he would feel off right?


just because something is abnormal doesn't mean it's bad. ;)

Fine..I just dont see why, instead of accepting abornomalities, we dont just work on fixing their problems.

Fa'afafine ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%27afafine)

Eesh, try to say that three times fast.

It's been tried, and it has failed miserably. It is not a mental illness. In some societies, it is completely accepted...I think it's an issue with society, not with the individual in terms of 'normality'.

From Raising Arizona:

Panning a circle of men who sit facing each other in folding
chairs. The pan starts on Hi.

VOICE OVER
In an effort to better ourselves we
were forced to meet with a counselor
who tried to help us figure out why
we were the way we were...

At this point the pan has reached the COUNSELOR, an earnest,
bearded young man who straddles a folding chair with his
arms folded over its back.

He is addressing one of the Cons:

COUNSELOR
Why do you use the word "trapped"?

CLOSEUP BLACK CON

The huge muscle-bound black man with a shaved head is knitting
his brow in consternation.

CON
Huh?

COUNSELOR
Why do you say you feel "trapped" in
a man's body?

CON
Oh...

He bites his lip, thinking; then, in a resonant bass voice:

CON
...Well, sometimes I get the menstrual
cramps real hard.

Fine..I just dont see why, instead of accepting abornomalities, we dont just work on fixing their problems.

Because it's not necesarily a problem? How do you define a problem?

It's been tried, and it has failed miserably. It is not a mental illness. In some societies, it is completely accepted...I think it's an issue with society, not with the individual in terms of 'normality'.
In some societies, raping and slaughtering women for being raped in the first place is completely accepted, dont use that arguement with me...even more so because your a feminist.

This guy might do it.
http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/dirtyjobs/splash.html
Hell, he'd even televise it and traumatize all the viewers.
I love that show :D

Because it's not necesarily a problem? How do you define a problem?

A man who thinks hes a girl is not a problem? How about a man who thinks hes a God...or a man who thinks hes a goat...those arnt problems?

I'm sure the voices aren't normal either, but they don't bother me too much. :)
LOL

Fine..I just dont see why, instead of accepting abornomalities, we dont just work on fixing their problems.
One of the main problems my nephew has is that people are trying to "fix" him, they tell him he is bad, that he is wrong, and all of this over something he has no control over.

I would love to be able to take him to a counselor, so that he could have someone to talk to that can help him more than I can. I would love to send his parents to someone who will help them deal with this better.

I don't know what kind of solution you are looking for in this, he would like to get a gender reassignment operation but he can't until he is older, that would be a solution, a partial solution.

Fine..I just dont see why, instead of accepting abornomalities, we dont just work on fixing their problems.
Because we HAVE tried...and failed miserably. It's not something that needs to be cured...it's something that needs to be understood. You knew your gender from an early age. Lucky for you, your genitals match. People don't choose to be like this...but they're stuck with it.

In some societies, raping and slaughtering women for being raped in the first place is completely accepted, dont use that arguement with me...even more so because your a feminist.
I will absolutely use this argument to show that as with many things, cultural acceptance is important. Trangendered people in these particular cultures do not commit suicide to the same extent that they do in societies that do not accept them. We don't accept transgendered people here in the West...not enough. This is harmful. Just as it is harmful to homosexuals, who were also once told that they should get 'cured'.

A man who thinks hes a girl is not a problem? How about a man who thinks hes a God...or a man who thinks hes a goat...those arnt problems?

Not necesarily. Is it causing some excessive form of harm?


LOL

I'm serious. Sure, one of them won't shut up sometimes, but I've yet to be told to kill myself. "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it"

Fine..I just dont see why, instead of accepting abornomalities, we dont just work on fixing their problems.

Why would we if it isn't actually a problem? If someone has a cancer that is destorying their health, we will try and fix it. If someone has a constant urge to harm themself or others, we will try and fix it.

Why should we try and "fix" someone who simply doesn't fit our preconceived notion of who they should be?

A man who thinks hes a girl is not a problem? How about a man who thinks hes a God...or a man who thinks hes a goat...those arnt problems?

The difference here, of course, being that "God" and "goat" are not states of mind. Gender, on the other hand, is. Sex and gender have never been as closely linked as people would like to think. Even sex itself is not as clearly definable as many would like to think. Why, exactly, is it a problem if a person with a penis is of the feminine gender (or vice versa)?

Why, exactly, is it a problem if a person with a penis is of the feminine gender (or vice versa)?
Because it just freaks certain people out.

Because it just freaks certain people out.

Oh noes!

Because it just freaks certain people out.
Because thats just not naturally how its supposed to be.
You have a penis, you are male, you have a vag, you are female. Thats how its been from day 1, whether your a Lion or a Human.

Because thats just not naturally how its supposed to be.
You have a penis, you are male, you have a vag, you are female. Thats how its been from day 1, whether your a Lion or a Human.
Sorry, you're discussing sex, and we are discussing gender.

Because thats just not naturally how its supposed to be.
You have a penis, you are male, you have a vag, you are female. Thats how its been from day 1, whether your a Lion or a Human.
I have a friend who was born with a vagina and undecended testes in her abdomen, she is actually (like if you check her DNA) a male, but for some reason her genitals got "mixed up" in the womb.

It's not clear to her which she "really is" but she prefers to live as a woman because she was raised as one.

anyway, it's not as clear cut as you assume it to be.

Nope. Not even physical sex is always clear cut. Gender is a lot less so, since it is so reliant on gender norms shaped by society.

Because thats just not naturally how its supposed to be.

How do you know? It occurs naturally. It must, therefore, be natural. It even occurs in other species - a creature will develop physically as one sex, but will behave completely as the other.

You have a penis, you are male, you have a vag, you are female. Thats how its been from day 1, whether your a Lion or a Human.

Really? Is that a fact? What about those who have a vagina but also have undescended testes? What are they, exactly?

Meanwhile, you are speaking of biological sex, which is not the same thing as psychological gender - not in humans, at least.


I have a friend who was born with a vagina and undecended testes in her abdomen, she is actually (like if you check her DNA) a male, but for some reason her genitals got "mixed up" in the womb.

I swear I typed all of that above before seeing your post. Anyways, there are many ways this could occur. If your friend has XY DNA, she most likely has a condition known as PAIS (partial androgen insensitivity syndrome). I say partial only because if she had the complete version (CAIS), she most likley never would have developed testes in the first place. In the absence of certain proteins, human development defaults to female.

Another way in which a person might develop physically as a female, although starting out as XY, would be a person with Turner's Syndrome. In this, an improper division very early on in development causes most of the girl's cells to be XO (just a single X chromosome), rather than XY. Enough cells may still be XY, however, in order for testes to develop, but not descend.

It's not clear to her which she "really is" but she prefers to live as a woman because she was raised as one.

From a gender standpoint, she "really is" whatever she feels she is. From a sex standpoint, she would most likley be considered intersex.

anyway, it's not as clear cut as you assume it to be.

Indeed.

I swear I typed all of that above before seeing your post. Anyways, there are many ways this could occur. If your friend has XY DNA, she most likely has a condition known as PAIS (partial androgen insensitivity syndrome). I say partial only because if she had the complete version (CAIS), she most likley never would have developed testes in the first place. In the absence of certain proteins, human development defaults to female.

Another way in which a person might develop physically as a female, although starting out as XY, would be a person with Turner's Syndrome. In this, an improper division very early on in development causes most of the girl's cells to be XO (just a single X chromosome), rather than XY. Enough cells may still be XY, however, in order for testes to develop, but not descend.
I remember her saying something about the first condition you listed PAIS, anyway, she really doesn't tell people about it much, unless they piss her off.

"when are you going to have children?"
"I'm not"
"why? everyone wants children"
then she goes into the "not everyone wants them, I do but I can't have them and thank you for being an ass" rant...

A man who thinks hes a girl is not a problem? We aren't talking about a man who thinks he's a girl, we're talking about a girl in a man's body.

ARRRGHHH SINUHUE!!!

For the second time today on a second thread of yours Ive tried to reply, took too long because I went in depth, and lost the post due to timing out!
Screw it! I give up on "real" threads!



*and breathe....*

OK rant and tantrum over

Maybe Ill post about the two people Ive known that have had sex changes later.
I doubt it though. Bloody short timeouts and complicated issues!

ARRRRGH!!!

Aw, that sucks! I know...that can be sooooo frustrating. I type everything out in Word now and then cut and paste because of this very problem:)

Oh, and quite honestly, when you meet someone who is transgendered, and is able to express their true gender, even you know it's right. It's a totally subjective reading of body language...but I've seen it again and again. Relief. Contentment.

To be honest, after looking this up on on the internet and reading your OP...this sounds alot more like a mental illness than anything else...people like this need clinical help...not social acceptance and recognition.

To be honest, it's such a deep-rooted feeling in your mind that drugs can't help it. It's been tried many times, but drugs simply don't work for the majority of transgendered people.

Why shouldn't we accept people who have a "mental disorder"? We are perfectly able to function as intgelligent and productive human beings, helping people and contributing equally to society, there is just something we desire changed about our bodies.

The only recognised treatment that works for most is SRS.

anyway, how young can you really be sure? I would assume it wasn't something that just hits you one day, I mean you would have to just "feel different" your whole life right?

I don't know how I can be sure. I just am. How can you be sure that your gender matches up with your sex? You just know. Simple as. People who are transgendered do feel that something's wrong their whole lives. When they're younger they might not know what it is, but as they get younger and realise the differences between men and women they realise what is wrong with them. And then they realise, over time, what they've been feeling all these years. It's not that they just wake up and think it, it's that they were too young to know what it was.

Fine..I just dont see why, instead of accepting abornomalities, we dont just work on fixing their problems.

And the only way to 'fix the problem' of Gender Identity Disorder is reassignment.

Because thats just not naturally how its supposed to be.

If you're naturally born transgendered, that's naturally how it's supposed to be. That's how you were born


You have a penis, you are male, you have a vag, you are female. Thats how its been from day 1, whether your a Lion or a Human.

Gender and sex are nowhere near as black and white as you appear to believe.

I don't know how I can be sure. I just am. How can you be sure that your gender matches up with your sex? You just know. Simple as. People who are transgendered do feel that something's wrong their whole lives. When they're younger they might not know what it is, but as they get younger and realise the differences between men and women they realise what is wrong with them. And then they realise, over time, what they've been feeling all these years. It's not that they just wake up and think it, it's that they were too young to know what it was.

*cough* Older, maybe?

I think she's not actually human.
...right to the point. Good ol' Sin. :)

We should get someone to check.

I'll do it. How much will you pay me?

Oh, and quite honestly, when you meet someone who is transgendered, and is able to express their true gender, even you know it's right. It's a totally subjective reading of body language...but I've seen it again and again. Relief. Contentment.
Even if I try 'acting' my birth gender, no-one really believes it. I confuse most people I meet.

*cough* Older, maybe?

Er....yes:p

Even if I try 'acting' my birth gender, no-one really believes it. I confuse most people I meet.
People who knew my brother before he was out all say that now he is 'right'. They didn't know what was wrong before...I doubt any of them could have figured it out...but there is just something that clicks now...

Oh, and he was so excited...had an article written about him in the paper and the journalist used female pronouns throughout.

(To those of you wondering why I'm using the male pronouns...I use the female when speaking to my brother, but if I just say sister, some people assume I mean that my sibling's gender is male.)

People who knew my brother before he was out all say that now he is 'right'. They didn't know what was wrong before...I doubt any of them could have figured it out...but there is just something that clicks now...

Oh, and he was so excited...had an article written about him in the paper and the journalist used female pronouns throughout.

(To those of you wondering why I'm using the male pronouns...I use the female when speaking to my brother, but if I just say sister, some people assume I mean that my sibling's gender is male.)

Who says you can't have a female brother? That's what I'd do.

Who says you can't have a female brother? That's what I'd do.
Meh, I'm used to just saying brother online.

Who says you can't have a female brother? That's what I'd do.

Hey, last time I remember you posting about transgenderism you were denying that a transsexual would legitimately be able to call themselves by their 'new' sex. What happened?

My brother has had to put up with a lot of crap in his life because of his gender. Thankfully he's 6'4" and built like a brick wall...even though he somehow manages to look great in a black dress and pearls...

Whoa whoever messes with someone 6'4" and built like a brick wall must have some serious guts or your brother doesn't beat them up enough.

Yes well, homosexuality was considered a mental illness too. Maybe everything out of the norm should be a mental illness.

Whoa whoa whoa I'm fairly sure that is an argument I've heard before, I'm not sure where I ehard this but apparently psychological disorders are on the rise but thats also correlated with the fact that EVERYONE has a psychological disorder now and there is better access to diagnosis.
No wait here we are...
http://www.exitmundi.nl/insanity.htm
http://www.exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm

Hey, last time I remember you posting about transgenderism you were denying that a transsexual would legitimately be able to call themselves by their 'new' sex. What happened?

I was? They can call themselves whatever they want, if you want a strict definition of what they are, geneticly, karyotype them

Of course, this prolly wouldn't be very useful for much, if mentally they're something else, but feh.

Do transgendered people have surgery, or are they just people that act like the opposite sex?

I was? They can call themselves whatever they want, if you want a strict definition of what they are, geneticly, karyotype them

Of course, this prolly wouldn't be very useful for much, if mentally they're something else, but feh.

Meh. Genes don't tell the whole story sometimes, especially not in everyday situations. Nobody gets a gene survey done on someone before they decide what to call them. As far as I'm concerned, genes are just one of the myriad things that make up sex and gender.

Do transgendered people have surgery, or are they just people that act like the opposite sex?

Transgendered people are those who believe their gender doesn't match their sex. They may not act like the 'opposite sex' because they're too scared to, or whatever, but if they identify as a gender but have a sex that doesn't match then they're transgendered.

Transexuals are those who go through transition.

anyone care to explain in what way a 'transgendered' male is different, mentally, from a standard male

anyone care to explain in what way a 'transgendered' male is different, mentally, from a standard male

Depends on what you mean. I'd imagine that there wouldn't be much difference between a male-gendered, female-sexed transgendered person and a 'standard' male, though they may have differing socialization.

And I'd imagine that a female-gendered, male-sexed transgendered person would be mentally different than a 'standard' male in that they aren't one.

Or something.

"And I'd imagine that a female-gendered, male-sexed transgendered person would be mentally different than a 'standard' male in that they aren't one.

Or something."---Kiwi-kiwi

yeah, that's what i'm asking, what's the difference?

"And I'd imagine that a female-gendered, male-sexed transgendered person would be mentally different than a 'standard' male in that they aren't one.

Or something."---Kiwi-kiwi

yeah, that's what i'm asking, what's the difference?

What's the difference between, mentally, between a man and a woman? Answer that and you answer your question.

so you're saying there might be a slight trend in a few personality traits, but as a whole there is no difference? that doesn't answer any question at all. what is it that makes a 'transgendered' person think they are different from others of their sex?

so you're saying there might be a slight trend in a few personality traits, but as a whole there is no difference? that doesn't answer any question at all. what is it that makes a 'transgendered' person think they are different from others of their sex?

I can't really answer that since one, I've never experienced my gender not matching my sex, and two, I've never experienced being male, so I can't what would cause a feeling on not being the correct sex for your gender or what the difference between males and females is.

However, apparently there is a difference, and it's one that transexuals can feel so that they know that their body doesn't fit their mind. If males and females were exactly the same mentally, I don't suppose there'd be any transexuals.

so you're saying there might be a slight trend in a few personality traits, but as a whole there is no difference? that doesn't answer any question at all. what is it that makes a 'transgendered' person think they are different from others of their sex?
There are a number of studies that suggest there is an actual difference in the physiology of the brain (http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm) between transgendered males (gendered as females) and 'other' males. It's also thought that there are genetic factors (http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/archive.asp?aid=770) that help determine gender. This research also has bearing on homosexuality, and suggests that there is finally proof for what many of us know already...gender and sexuality are NOT choices, we are simply hard-wired a certain way.

Here (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TS.html) is a good site for some more in depth information.

I guess the real question would be this:

Say you were in the scenario in Blake Edward's "Switch": you woke up one morning and discovered you were a woman (obviously, this scenario applies to the males in the forum, so forgive the exclusion). Would you spend the rest of your life dressing and acting like a woman or would you try to find some way to become the male you remember being?

You mean, once they got over the thrill of having boobs they could play with at will, etc?:D

You mean, once they got over the thrill of having boobs they could play with at will, etc?:D

As if we'd ever get over that.

You mean, once they got over the thrill of having boobs they could play with at will, etc?:D

Well, that and the shock of not being able to stand up and pee anymore.;)

Well, that and the shock of not being able to stand up and pee anymore.;)

You still can if you practise!

they know that their body doesn't fit their mind
My body doesn't fit my body, let alone my mind. I have male primary sexual characteristics, but developed female secondary sexual characteristics. That is to say, yes - I have a penis, but when in adolescence I developed breasts (not the "man-breasts" that result from obesity, but perky feminine breasts) and the distribution of body fats and hair growth followed along female lines.

*sigh*

I don't generally participate actively in these threads because I always end up answering a lot of questions from people who seek to have their curiousity satisfied, as to who I am, or what I am, or what do I think of myself as - and you know? I find it boring. One of the big attractions of NSG for me is, well - that I can be who I want to be with as much or as little anonymity as I might wish.

Not that any of you necessarily know me, there's a fair chance you've seen my work, whether a TV show, a commercial, a documentary film, or even a video game or two - and I appreciate having some degree of privacy in my (happy) life.

So there you have it. I'm transgendered - and in the context of NS, it shouldn't matter. This is a level playing field, and if I don't trumpet the TG cause all the time, I guess it's just 'cause for me, it's just life...

Is this making sense, or am I just letting myself ramble?

So, transgender is more of a psychological thing? Like it's all in their head? Their bodies male, but their mind is female?

Rambling, must have been. Now I feel like I've killed the thread.

Damnit.

"I guess the real question would be this:

Say you were in the scenario in Blake Edward's "Switch": you woke up one morning and discovered you were a woman (obviously, this scenario applies to the males in the forum, so forgive the exclusion). Would you spend the rest of your life dressing and acting like a woman or would you try to find some way to become the male you remember being?"---PasturePastry


why should i change the way i dress or act? as for finding a way to become the male i remember being, i would if it were something easy. surgery for cosmetic reasons on the other hand is way too extreme for me. surgery to reattach my arm, surgery to stop the internal bleeding, surgery to fix the blood clot in my brain.....sure. surgery when i'm perfectly healthy? no thanks.

I think she's not actually human.

Point granted. I've always wondered about the tentacles. Most people don't have those.

"I guess the real question would be this:

Say you were in the scenario in Blake Edward's "Switch": you woke up one morning and discovered you were a woman (obviously, this scenario applies to the males in the forum, so forgive the exclusion). Would you spend the rest of your life dressing and acting like a woman or would you try to find some way to become the male you remember being?"---PasturePastry


why should i change the way i dress or act? as for finding a way to become the male i remember being, i would if it were something easy. surgery for cosmetic reasons on the other hand is way too extreme for me. surgery to reattach my arm, surgery to stop the internal bleeding, surgery to fix the blood clot in my brain.....sure. surgery when i'm perfectly healthy? no thanks.

Very sensible answer. I think ultimately, people are going to be who they are rather than become what others want them to be.

My body doesn't fit my body, let alone my mind. I have male primary sexual characteristics, but developed female secondary sexual characteristics. That is to say, yes - I have a penis, but when in adolescence I developed breasts (not the "man-breasts" that result from obesity, but perky feminine breasts) and the distribution of body fats and hair growth followed along female lines.

*sigh*

I don't generally participate actively in these threads because I always end up answering a lot of questions from people who seek to have their curiousity satisfied, as to who I am, or what I am, or what do I think of myself as - and you know? I find it boring. One of the big attractions of NSG for me is, well - that I can be who I want to be with as much or as little anonymity as I might wish.

Not that any of you necessarily know me, there's a fair chance you've seen my work, whether a TV show, a commercial, a documentary film, or even a video game or two - and I appreciate having some degree of privacy in my (happy) life.

So there you have it. I'm transgendered - and in the context of NS, it shouldn't matter. This is a level playing field, and if I don't trumpet the TG cause all the time, I guess it's just 'cause for me, it's just life...

Is this making sense, or am I just letting myself ramble?

Phil Lamarr?

So...How functional are these breasts exactly? :p

I though transsexuals were people who had *switched.* There was a person in my city who was murdered by a group of boyfriends after they found out (long after they had already slept with her) that she was biologically male.

"There was a person in my city who was murdered by a group of boyfriends after they found out (long after they had already slept with her) that she was biologically male."

that's because they happened to be stupid as well as worthless.

as for biologically male.....if i can have sex with her and still not have a clue that she is sorta male.....then 'she' is female enough for me

"There was a person in my city who was murdered by a group of boyfriends after they found out (long after they had already slept with her) that she was biologically male."

that's because they happened to be stupid as well as worthless.

as for biologically male.....if i can have sex with her and still not have a clue that she is sorta male.....then 'she' is female enough for me

Well, you can't, because she's dead. Though, you have a point in that she was by that point anyway (I guess) female. (Maybe a sex change operation?) Nonethelss, it was classified as a hate crime (understandably). From what those who knew her said, she was apparently a very nice girl. And I hate to say it, but she wan't unnatractive.

Great. Now that I've said that, the conversation ends. Someone say something!

And I hate to say it, but she wan't unnatractive.

Why would you hate to say it? Was she your cousin?

My body doesn't fit my body, let alone my mind. I have male primary sexual characteristics, but developed female secondary sexual characteristics. That is to say, yes - I have a penis, but when in adolescence I developed breasts (not the "man-breasts" that result from obesity, but perky feminine breasts) and the distribution of body fats and hair growth followed along female lines.

*sigh*

I don't generally participate actively in these threads because I always end up answering a lot of questions from people who seek to have their curiousity satisfied, as to who I am, or what I am, or what do I think of myself as - and you know? I find it boring. One of the big attractions of NSG for me is, well - that I can be who I want to be with as much or as little anonymity as I might wish.

Not that any of you necessarily know me, there's a fair chance you've seen my work, whether a TV show, a commercial, a documentary film, or even a video game or two - and I appreciate having some degree of privacy in my (happy) life.

So there you have it. I'm transgendered - and in the context of NS, it shouldn't matter. This is a level playing field, and if I don't trumpet the TG cause all the time, I guess it's just 'cause for me, it's just life...

Is this making sense, or am I just letting myself ramble?
No way.

I have a question. Isn't gender a social construct? And if it is, then gender isn't "real", its just preconcieved notions about how people ought to behave, then is someone truly transgendered? Aren't they just a person? Does question make sense?

Well, yes, it is, but it certainly helps in defining a person. Sorta reminds me of meditation (sorry, gonna ramble) was reading ram dass the other day, he was saying that the ego is something that we need to survive as a human being, otherwise we'd go nutz, but that we shouldnt use it as a description of our whole being (make sense, or am I drooling? 2 o clock in the morning) . Maybe gender is like that. There are people who identify as female, male, and some who dont really wanna bother with it, they are just who they are, gender doesnt really factor into their personal identity much, or else it does but they don't think and or worry about it as much. And I officially just forgot what I was talking about, so I'll stop and go get some sleepy time now. :p

My body doesn't fit my body, let alone my mind. I have male primary sexual characteristics, but developed female secondary sexual characteristics. That is to say, yes - I have a penis, but when in adolescence I developed breasts (not the "man-breasts" that result from obesity, but perky feminine breasts) and the distribution of body fats and hair growth followed along female lines.


Was the development of female secondary sexual characteristics from taking female hormones during puberty, or is it the result of something else?

EDIT: Er, sorry if I'm being too invasive or something. You don't have to answer if you're not comfortable. I'm just curious.

If we refer to non-trangendered people as "normal" or "natural" men and women, we imply that transgenderd people are abnormal or unnatural.
[/URL]

Transgendered people are abnormal.

I have a question. Isn't gender a social construct? And if it is, then gender isn't "real", its just preconcieved notions about how people ought to behave, then is someone truly transgendered? Aren't they just a person? Does question make sense?
That's pretty much how I view it, and it's one of the reasons I get so depressed thinking about my trans friends who have transitioned. I completely believe that they made the right choices for themselves, and I totally support their right to transition and to be respected no matter what, but I also believe that if our society wasn't so fucked in the head then "transsexuals" wouldn't exist. There would be no need for them to transition. The very feeling of being the "wrong gender" wouldn't exist, because we would all get to grow up knowing that gender itself is a construct.

Transgendered people are abnormal.
How would you know? Ever been one?

Yeah, didn't think so.

"abnormal" - huh.

*snorts with open derision*

Was the development of female secondary sexual characteristics from taking female hormones during puberty, or is it the result of something else?

EDIT: Er, sorry if I'm being too invasive or something. You don't have to answer if you're not comfortable. I'm just curious.
Well, this is just the sort of thing I get weary addressing, but no - I wasn't popping hormone tabs as a teen. During puberty, my body was producing significantly more estrogen than testosterone - it's related to a congenital birth defect that I hadn't been aware of until I was about age 15.

But we're delving deeply into territory that is actually making me uncomfortable - I really don't come onto NS to discuss my medical history, and anyway I'm at work right now. If you want me to tell you more (and assuming I'm up for talking at length about myself), let's take it to TGs (no pun intended).

Anyway, with respect to the last poster I responded to - I don't feel abnormal. I feel like I always have. Human - like anybody else, I suppose. I just have different floppy bits in combination.

Transgendered people are abnormal.

two things.

1) Thanks a bunch. :Psychopathic_chibismile:

*bites tongue, sighs deeply*

what's abnormal about them? their mind or their body?

2) what's normal? Should whatever is deemed the least offensive by society as a whole be normal, meaning that something that doesn't apply to a large majority of the whole should be looked at with disgust and fear?

Are you saying abnormal from a scientific point of view? Cuz it's not abnormal. It might not happen to everyone, so that might make it unusual, but not abnormal.

((I'm still asleep, sorry if I was a little botchy or if I dont make much sense))

Is this making sense, or am I just letting myself ramble?
Not rambling, Dobbs...never that:)

I have a question. Isn't gender a social construct? And if it is, then gender isn't "real", its just preconcieved notions about how people ought to behave, then is someone truly transgendered? Aren't they just a person? Does question make sense?
Well, there is evidence that the brains of men and women are slightly different. So there is also a physical difference. Take a biological male who has a female brain. Even if we got rid of all gender norms and started from scratch, that difference would not go away.

Well, this is just the sort of thing I get weary addressing, but no - I wasn't popping hormone tabs as a teen. During puberty, my body was producing significantly more estrogen than testosterone - it's related to a congenital birth defect that I hadn't been aware of until I was about age 15.

But we're delving deeply into territory that is actually making me uncomfortable - I really don't come onto NS to discuss my medical history, and anyway I'm at work right now. If you want me to tell you more (and assuming I'm up for talking at length about myself), let's take it to TGs (no pun intended).

Anyway, with respect to the last poster I responded to - I don't feel abnormal. I feel like I always have. Human - like anybody else, I suppose. I just have different floppy bits in combination.

Thank you for answering. I won't bother you any more with questions since it isn't a topic you're comfortable discussing.

two things.

1) Thanks a bunch. :Psychopathic_chibismile:

*bites tongue, sighs deeply*

what's abnormal about them? their mind or their body?

2) what's normal? Should whatever is deemed the least offensive by society as a whole be normal, meaning that something that doesn't apply to a large majority of the whole should be looked at with disgust and fear?

Are you saying abnormal from a scientific point of view? Cuz it's not abnormal. It might not happen to everyone, so that might make it unusual, but not abnormal.

((I'm still asleep, sorry if I was a little botchy or if I dont make much sense))

If you look at abnormal by definition, and not with the negative connotations it's picked up, then sure transgendered people are abnormal after a fashion, in that they differ from the norm. The norm is to be the same gender as your sex, and so in this way transgendered people are abnormal.

This isn't neccessarily a bad thing. Everyone is probably abnormal in one way or another. Heck, geniuses are abnormal.

The real truth about this BS...

Gender and transgender.


Transgendered people are confused people with piss poor upbringing by their parents, most common in liberal households because liberals barely have any identity of their own.

Transsexuals are those who have had such a horrible upbringing that they have slipped beyond the realm of reality and decided to embrace their perversion and lack of a moral compass to a point that they surgically mutilate their genitals as part of a disgusting fetish.


Crossdressers are something different. They are just circus freak perverts and deserve to be pointed at, laughed at, and ridiculed until they either pull their heads out of their asses and grow up or lock themselves in a basement never to be heard from again. Breeding is NOT encouraged as their ability to raise children is absolutely non-existent.

Intersexed people are those born with ambiguous genitalia. While sad that this can occur in nature it is up to the parents to act fast while the child is still young and have the necessary surgical repairs made so that the child has a hope for a normal life. If liberals have these children they will typically raise them for appearances in the back "B" pornography magazines and circus freak type porn movies.


There are more transgendered people out there than you probably realize, and while it's been something snickered at, or joked about but mostly avoided in mainstream culture for many years, it is finally something that is 'coming out' and becoming more visible. I see this as very positive, hopefully we can get to them and help them before it's too late and they continue the filthy perversion liberalism so lovingly embraces.




Now you know, and knowing is half the battle...:cool:

The real truth about this BS...*snipped hatefilled and ignorant diatribe*
Trolls are supposed to remain under a bridge.

Trolls are supposed to remain under a bridge.

Not trolling, someone has to counter this BS. SO when will you start your thread embracing pedophilia or beastiality? Where does it all end? The perpetual victim status that you liberals bestow upon people with sick fetishes is disgusting...

Like the sick fetish to declare yourself a bastion of normality, setting your own subjective standards by which everyone else must live...and hey, while you're comparing transgenderism to bestiality, why don't you compare liberalism to baby-eating...you know you want to...

There are more transgendered people out there than you probably realize, and while it's been something snickered at, or joked about but mostly avoided in mainstream culture for many years, it is finally something that is 'coming out' and becoming more visible. I see this as very positive, hopefully we can get to them and help them before it's too late and they continue the filthy perversion liberalism so lovingly embraces.


Weren't you busy drinking the blood of the comoners or something? Yeah, go back to doing that. And oh yeah, it's nice to see that you care. Not.
why don't you compare liberalism to baby-eating...you know you want to... Meh, how about we compare extreme right wingers and babies instead.
Ann Coulter likes babies! (with plenty of A1);)

Not trolling, someone has to counter this BS. SO when will you start your thread embracing pedophilia or beastiality? Where does it all end? The perpetual victim status that you liberals bestow upon people with sick fetishes is disgusting...
So far the only personally disgusting post or idea in this thread that I have read is by you.

So far the only personally disgusting post or idea in this thread that I have read is by you.
We should get to him and 'cure' him before it's too late!

We should get to him and 'cure' him before it's too late!
I think it may already be too late. People like him are notoriously impermeable to logic or reason.

Well, there is evidence that the brains of men and women are slightly different. So there is also a physical difference. Take a biological male who has a female brain. Even if we got rid of all gender norms and started from scratch, that difference would not go away.
Yeah, the sexed he would be smart!

Sorry, making light of a serious subject. Thats really interesting. Thanks for the info.

Well, there is evidence that the brains of men and women are slightly different. So there is also a physical difference. Take a biological male who has a female brain. Even if we got rid of all gender norms and started from scratch, that difference would not go away.
The problem is that we have absolutely no evidence that those differences in brain structure are the "cause" of gender, as opposed to the result.

Our brain structure is shaped as we grow. It is influenced by the things we do, the perceptions we experience, and even by the emotional states we are in. Studies on brain differences between men and women are, obviously, performed in men and women...that's essentially a case of looking at the finished product and then trying to extrapolate how it got there. Is this woman's brain the way it is because she was born female, or has its structure been shaped by her experiences growing up as a female in a society that is obsessed with gender roles and gender differences?

The fun thing is that there are no clinically established differences between the brains of male infants and female infants. Now, this might simply be because the gendered differences don't arrise until later. It could be because puberty does different things to male and female brains. It could be a lot of things. But it also could be that infants are blank slates when it comes to "gendering" the brain. We just don't know yet.

Interesting...so I wonder what would happen to the brain of someone growing up in a gender-neutral context...

The real truth about this BS...

Gender and transgender.


Transgendered people are confused people with piss poor upbringing by their parents, most common in liberal households because liberals barely have any identity of their own.

Actually, transvestitism and transexuality appear to be just as common in conservative societies. Indeed, some studies even suggest that transexuality is MORE common among people who hold extremely traditional views on gender roles.

Which makes perfect sense, if you think about it. Say that you're a little boy who finds himself wanting to play with dolls, wear dresses, and learn to sew. If you live in a very conservative family, odds are that you are going to be told some pretty damn horrible things about this. You also will get very strong messages about how BOYS MUST ACT ONE WAY and GIRLS MUST ACT ANOTHER WAY. There can be no compromise. You will be stuck in a situation where people tell you that only girls like the things that you know you like...so maybe that means you have to be a girl.

On the other hand, in a very liberal family, your parents would be more likely to simply say, "Ok, our son wants to play with dolls, wear dresses, and learn to sew. No sweat." You learn that boys are allowed to have the feelings you have, and to want the things you want. There is no need for you to choose between being a boy and being who you feel you are.


Transsexuals are those who have had such a horrible upbringing that they have slipped beyond the realm of reality and decided to embrace their perversion and lack of a moral compass to a point that they surgically mutilate their genitals as part of a disgusting fetish.

Please provide data to support this assertion.


Crossdressers are something different. They are just circus freak perverts and deserve to be pointed at, laughed at, and ridiculed until they either pull their heads out of their asses and grow up or lock themselves in a basement never to be heard from again. Breeding is NOT encouraged as their ability to raise children is absolutely non-existent.

I'm guessing that if you have ever lived in the Western world, or have ever visited it, you have been surrounded by "cross dressers" pretty much at all times. Women wear men's clothing as a matter of course in the Western world. Men wear women's clothing far less often, but this is simply a manefestation of the double standard, and the fact that "masculine" is defined as "anything that doesn't have icky girl germs on it."


Intersexed people are those born with ambiguous genitalia. While sad that this can occur in nature it is up to the parents to act fast while the child is still young and have the necessary surgical repairs made so that the child has a hope for a normal life.

It is often life-threatening to pursue such surgeries on children. There are also cases when it is medically best to wait until the child has begun puberty before there is any move made to "choose" a gender for the child. I'm sure you aren't suggesting that parents endanger their children's health simply to force them to conform.


If liberals have these children they will typically raise them for appearances in the back "B" pornography magazines and circus freak type porn movies.
It's true that liberal parents tend to be in less of a rush to "select" a sex for their child. It is also true that many people seem to be unable to treat intersexed individuals as human beings, but instead feel compelled to regard them as freaks or monsters. I see no reason to blame responsible parents for the irresponsible behavior of some small-minded bigots.


There are more transgendered people out there than you probably realize, and while it's been something snickered at, or joked about but mostly avoided in mainstream culture for many years, it is finally something that is 'coming out' and becoming more visible. I see this as very positive, hopefully we can get to them and help them before it's too late and they continue the filthy perversion liberalism so lovingly embraces.

Yes, please do try to get your message out to the people. I'm sure you'll quickly win them over.

Interesting...so I wonder what would happen to the brain of someone growing up in a gender-neutral context...
As do I. Particularly considering some recent work that has looked at how aggression and stress impact the brain. We have VERY gendered ideas about anger, fear, and anxiety, and about how men are supposed to express these feelings as compared to women. We have very gendered ideas about encouraging/discouraging aggressive behavior, social interaction, and even things like reading and writing. It seems pretty likely to me that these differences can have an impact on how our brains develop. The question is, are there other underlying differences between men and women as well? Are those differences more or less significant than the differences that arrise from "environmental" influences? Will one over-ride the other?

I love science...

As do I. Particularly considering some recent work that has looked at how aggression and stress impact the brain. We have VERY gendered ideas about anger, fear, and anxiety, and about how men are supposed to express these feelings as compared to women. We have very gendered ideas about encouraging/discouraging aggressive behavior, social interaction, and even things like reading and writing. It seems pretty likely to me that these differences can have an impact on how our brains develop. The question is, are there other underlying differences between men and women as well? Are those differences more or less significant than the differences that arrise from "environmental" influences? Will one over-ride the other?

I love science...


Men have a lot more testosterone, and if you don't think that makes a difference in behavior and attitude, you need to go back to the lab...

Men have a lot more testosterone, and if you don't think that makes a difference in behavior and attitude, you need to go back to the lab...
We're talking about brain structure, my friend. The simple fact is that if you administer testosterone to a female brain, their brain responds to that hormone in the same manner that a male brain does. Also, please read my post more carefully, and remember that we have sexes before we have puberty...girl children and boy children are, hormonally speaking, pretty much exactly the same. So why do we insist that "boys are A" and "girls are B" if testosterone is the key to masculinity vs femininity?

Yes, men tend to have more systemic testosterone. No, testosterone is not responsible for 99% of the things that people commonly think it controls. Indeed, some of the things that people most associate it with (aggression, for example) are actually much more strongly regulated by other neurotransmitters and hormones. It's just that our society is so obsessed with gender differences that good science gets ignored in our haste to prop up our constructed gender roles.

We're talking about brain structure, my friend. The simple fact is that if you administer testosterone to a female brain, their brain responds to that hormone in the same manner that a male brain does. Also, please read my post more carefully, and remember that we have sexes before we have puberty...girl children and boy children are, hormonally speaking, pretty much exactly the same. So why do we insist that "boys are" and "girls are" if testosterone is the key to masculinity?

Yes, men tend to have more systemic testosterone. No, testosterone is not responsible for 99% of the things that people commonly think it controls. Indeed, some of the things that people most associate it with (aggression, for example) are actually much more strongly regulated by other neurotransmitters and hormones. It's just that our society is so obsessed with gender differences that good science gets ignored in our haste to prop up our constructed gender roles.


I believe that you're more than just your brain. Most of your serotonin, for example, comes from your gut.

There is more genetic difference between a male human and a female human than there is between a male human and a male chimpanzee (or a female human and a female chimpanzee).

I believe that you're more than just your brain. Most of your serotonin, for example, comes from your gut.

Depends on what you mean by "comes from." Pretty much everything in your body "comes from" your digestive tract at one point or another.


There is more genetic difference between a male human and a female human than there is between a male human and a male chimpanzee (or a female human and a female chimpanzee).
Let's have Dr. Barry Starr answer this one, shall we?

The usual statistic is that all people are 99.9% the same. But is that true for men and women?

And what about our similarity to other animals? We are really only about 80% the same as a mouse at the genetic level so men and women are clearly more similar to each other than to mice. But what about chimpanzees? If people really are 98.7% the same as a chimpanzee, are male chimpanzees closer genetically to men than men are to women?

As you know, men have an X and a Y chromosome and women have two X chromosomes. So besides the usual 0.1% (or 3.2 million base pair) difference between people, men and women differ by the presence of the Y chromosome.

The Y chromosome is a tiny thing; it is about 59 million base pairs long and has only 78 genes. If we look at base pairs, the difference between men and women would be 59 million divided by 3.2 billion or about 1.8%. This translates to men and women being 98.2% the same.

Men and women are actually a bit more similar as the Y chromosome has about 5% of its DNA sequences in common with the X chromosome. This would change the number to 98.4% the same.

If the 98.7% number for chimp-human similarity is right, then by this measure, men and women are less alike than are female chimps and women. (More recent data suggests that chimps may be 95% instead of 98.7% the same, but this is still up in the air.)

Now if we look at the gene level instead of at the base pair level, men and women become much more similar. If we assume 30,000 total genes, then men and women are about 99.7% the same instead of 98.4%. (I haven’t been able to find a good number for how many genes chimpanzees and humans share.)

So is the bottom line that men and male chimps have more in common than men and women? Of course not. If we take a closer look, we see some of the dangers of looking at raw percentages instead of individual changes.

Another way to think about this is the 55 million or so differences between men and women are all concentrated on one chromosome and 78 genes. For chimps, the 42-150 million differences are spread out all over the chromosomes over many, many more genes.

In other words, while the quantity of changes may be the same, the quality is different. Even though we share most of our genes with a chimpanzee, lots of the chimp’s genes have changed in ways not seen in people. These changes make a chimp a chimp and a human a human.

Some of the products of these changed genes in a chimp now do different things, or do things differently, do them in different places, do them more strongly or weakly, or even do nothing at all. It only takes a single DNA change to make a gene stop working and there are millions and millions of differences between you and a chimp. What all of this means is that in essence, chimps have many more “different” genes than the 78 different ones between men and women even though the % difference at the DNA level may be comparable.

So, even if it may not seem like it sometimes, your brother has more in common with you than with a chimp.

It is absolutely awe inspiring seeing the liberals man their guns in defense of sexual deviants. I have fallen out my chair laughing 3 times just getting far enough down to post a reply. Keep it up little professional empathy machines, you're doing EXACTLY what I was hoping for.

Thanks!

I'll give you 1 point out of this whole topic, those born w/ a true biological defect such as no genitalia or both or some other strange combination is a very sad thing but it is rather rare. Your embrace of a few scientists saying a child's sexuality is pre-determined and embracing a 5 year olds lack of knowledge what their gender specific role in life is absolute lunacy. I'm not encouraging shock therapy or beating a child into conforming to a certain standard by any means. To roll over and not make an attempt to teach a child that boys and girls are opposites and both have a differences for certain very intelligent reasons is idiotic. To embrace and encourage homosexuality and train it to be socially acceptable is even more disgusting.

It is absolutely awe inspiring seeing the liberals man their guns in defense of sexual deviants. I have fallen out my chair laughing 3 times just getting far enough down to post a reply. Keep it up little professional empathy machines, you're doing EXACTLY what I was hoping for.

Thanks!

I'll give you 1 point out of this whole topic, those born w/ a true biological defect such as no genitalia or both or some other strange combination is a very sad thing but it is rather rare. Your embrace of a few scientists saying a child's sexuality is pre-determined and embracing a 5 year olds lack of knowledge what their gender specific role in life is absolute lunacy. I'm not encouraging shock therapy or beating a child into conforming to a certain standard by any means. To roll over and not make an attempt to teach a child that boys and girls are opposites and both have a differences for certain very intelligent reasons is idiotic. To embrace and encourage homosexuality and train it to be socially acceptable is even more disgusting.

Name these very intelligent reasons.

Name these very intelligent reasons.

^^ says the moron that apparently doesn't enjoy the fact that he/ she came from a MOTHER AND A FATHER...

Oh how insensitive of me, are you the offspring of 2 mommies and a test tube??? 2 fathers, a test tube, and one of their dyke friends??? Like it or not homos cannot pro-create naturally.

why should i change the way i dress or act? as for finding a way to become the male i remember being, i would if it were something easy. surgery for cosmetic reasons on the other hand is way too extreme for me. surgery to reattach my arm, surgery to stop the internal bleeding, surgery to fix the blood clot in my brain.....sure. surgery when i'm perfectly healthy? no thanks.

That's the thing; it's not cosmetic surgery. It doesn't matter what it looks like, so long as it's there. There's nothing cosmetic about it.

snip To embrace and encourage homosexuality and train it to be socially acceptable is even more disgusting.
Personally I think that is an example of progress in a society. Something to be applauded not scorned.

That's pretty much how I view it, and it's one of the reasons I get so depressed thinking about my trans friends who have transitioned. I completely believe that they made the right choices for themselves, and I totally support their right to transition and to be respected no matter what, but I also believe that if our society wasn't so fucked in the head then "transsexuals" wouldn't exist. There would be no need for them to transition.

Well, that's not really true. It's not about matching your body to society's constructs of gender, it's about matching your body to your what your mind thinks it should be.

Personally I think that is an example of progress in a society. Something to be applauded not scorned.

Not surprised, you seem like a filthy liberal hell bent on replacing real education in our schools with how-to classes teaching little Billy that it's ok for little Johnny to mutilate his keister with his penis in preperation for a hot AIDS injection. Typical liberal, you know the type.

The real truth about this BS...

Gender and transgender.


Transgendered people are confused people with piss poor upbringing by their parents, most common in liberal households because liberals barely have any identity of their own.

Don't fucking dare insult my parents, fucktard.

Not surprised, you seem like a filthy liberal hell bent on replacing real education in our schools with how-to classes teaching little Billy that it's ok for little Johnny to mutilate his keister with his penis in preperation for a hot AIDS injection. Typical liberal, you know the type.
No I would rather have real education. I just hope parents are good enough to teach their kids manners and to not to be bigoted discriminatory asshats when they grow up

Don't fucking dare insult my parents, fucktard.
Settle man(or woman) ... this guy is not even a good troll he pushes too far

The best ones are jerks without going this far

Well, that's not really true. It's not about matching your body to society's constructs of gender, it's about matching your body to your what your mind thinks it should be.
The two, unfortunately, cannot be divorced from one another.

I was? They can call themselves whatever they want, if you want a strict definition of what they are, geneticly, karyotype them

Even karyotyping won't necessarily give you a clear definition. Those with CAIS will have developed physically female, but will show up as XY. Those with Turner's will show up largely as XO. Chimeras may be partially XY and partially XX. Those with Klinefelter's will be XXY or XXXY or somet other mixture.

Even when you go to the genetic level, the categorization as one of two sexes gets fuzzy.

It is absolutely awe inspiring seeing the liberals man their guns in defense of sexual deviants. I have fallen out my chair laughing 3 times just getting far enough down to post a reply. Keep it up little professional empathy machines, you're doing EXACTLY what I was hoping for.

Thanks!

I'll give you 1 point out of this whole topic, those born w/ a true biological defect such as no genitalia or both or some other strange combination is a very sad thing but it is rather rare. Your embrace of a few scientists saying a child's sexuality is pre-determined and embracing a 5 year olds lack of knowledge what their gender specific role in life is absolute lunacy. I'm not encouraging shock therapy or beating a child into conforming to a certain standard by any means. To roll over and not make an attempt to teach a child that boys and girls are opposites and both have a differences for certain very intelligent reasons is idiotic. To embrace and encourage homosexuality and train it to be socially acceptable is even more disgusting.

But if wearing a dress or playing with Barbie is a "girl" thing because society says so, thats just the idiocy of society. I played with toy cars, lincoln logs, and water guns as a little girl, and loved tee-ball and now enjoy playing tackle football with guys. The only reason these are typically "boy" things is because society says so. Thats dumb. There is no good reason a boy shouldnt be able to wear a dress or play with Barbie, and no good reason a girl shouldnt be able to participate in sports or play with HotWheels.

Men and women have different genitalia. That doesnt make us opposites, necessarily.

So same sex couples cant concieve. Neither can many men and women for various biological reasons. That doesnt mean they are less able to love, or should not be accepted as capable of having loving relationships.

Not surprised, you seem like a filthy liberal hell bent on replacing real education in our schools with how-to classes teaching little Billy that it's ok for little Johnny to mutilate his keister with his penis in preperation for a hot AIDS injection. Typical liberal, you know the type.
Ok, now I know that usually my pet trolls die faster than goldfish, but this one sounds very robust and frisky. I'm sure he'll live longer than the others. Can I keep him?

Not surprised, you seem like a filthy liberal hell bent on replacing real education in our schools with how-to classes teaching little Billy that it's ok for little Johnny to mutilate his keister with his penis in preperation for a hot AIDS injection. Typical liberal, you know the type.
I didnt know there was real education going on in our schools to replace.

How bout we have classes teaching Little Billy how to put on a condom, so no matter who he decides to sleep with, if he decides to sleep with anyone, he'll no how to avoid getting and transmitting various STDs, including AIDS.

The problem is that we have absolutely no evidence that those differences in brain structure are the "cause" of gender, as opposed to the result.

Our brain structure is shaped as we grow. It is influenced by the things we do, the perceptions we experience, and even by the emotional states we are in. Studies on brain differences between men and women are, obviously, performed in men and women...that's essentially a case of looking at the finished product and then trying to extrapolate how it got there. Is this woman's brain the way it is because she was born female, or has its structure been shaped by her experiences growing up as a female in a society that is obsessed with gender roles and gender differences?

So how does that work when transexuals are found to have brains with more in common with their acquired sex than their birth sex. They've been brought up to be one sex, and to follow that sexes gender roles, so if upbringing influenced the development they would have brains in line with their birth sex, right?

And how does this apply to children who are born male, have something happen to their penis at birth (usually through circumcision accidents), and are instead raised female? There is one well known case in particular where the person involved always knew somehow that they shouldn't be female, and eventually had a reassignment when he was older, to go back to being male? How can you say that gender doesn't at least have something to do with something that happens pre-birth, or the structure of the brain?

Like it or not homos cannot pro-create naturally.

Homosexual people can have children just like most people.

Transgendered people are abnormal.

So are left-handed people, people with 6 toes, people who cannot roll their tongues, and people who have high IQs. So?

The two, unfortunately, cannot be divorced from one another.

Well, no, what society thinks people should act like has nothing to do with what I think my body should be. Not about how I should be able to act in public, or anything like that, but about the physical shape of my body. Nothing to do with society.

If it was perfectly acceptable all over society for boys to wear dresses and play with dolls then I might have been a bit happier, but it still wouldn't change my view of my body.

Settle man(or woman) ... this guy is not even a good troll he pushes too far

The best ones are jerks without going this far

Meh, I couldn't care what he says about anything, but dragging parents into it is too much.

I have fallen out my chair laughing 3 times just getting far enough down to post a reply.

Me too, only I was laughing at your blind hatred & your just overall mind boggling ingorance and stupidity, not the "professional empathy machine's" defense of "sexual deviants".
And what in the hell do sex ed classes (that generally dont breach the topic of transgendered) have to do with accepting homosexuality (aka not being an ass 'bout it). Why are you on this forum anyhow? You obviously seem to think that you are right, nothing we say is going to change your mind. I feel sorry for you. Why dont you leave and go pull the legs off a grasshopper or something?

~ "deviant" joe

Ok, now I know that usually my pet trolls die faster than goldfish, but this one sounds very robust and frisky. I'm sure he'll live longer than the others. Can I keep him?
it seems this troll may be rabid. I think rabid trolls should be treated like rabid dogs. But if u wanna keep him, go for it.

It is absolutely awe inspiring seeing the liberals man their guns in defense of sexual deviants. I have fallen out my chair laughing 3 times just getting far enough down to post a reply. Keep it up little professional empathy machines, you're doing EXACTLY what I was hoping for.

Thanks!

I'll give you 1 point out of this whole topic, those born w/ a true biological defect such as no genitalia or both or some other strange combination is a very sad thing but it is rather rare. Your embrace of a few scientists saying a child's sexuality is pre-determined and embracing a 5 year olds lack of knowledge what their gender specific role in life is absolute lunacy. I'm not encouraging shock therapy or beating a child into conforming to a certain standard by any means. To roll over and not make an attempt to teach a child that boys and girls are opposites and both have a differences for certain very intelligent reasons is idiotic. To embrace and encourage homosexuality and train it to be socially acceptable is even more disgusting.

Waitwaitwait. Ignoring all the flaming/troling/grioss generalisations for a second, I'd like to pose a question.

Why is embracing and encouraging homosexuality to be a socially acceptable thing 'disgusting', exactly? Homosexuals are no different to you; they breathe the same air, eat the same food, pay their taxes. They have their own fears and worries, just as you do. Apart from wishing to have sexual encounters with their own sex, there is no difference between the two of you.

So why do you cast such hatred onto such a maligned group?

The problem is that we have absolutely no evidence that those differences in brain structure are the "cause" of gender, as opposed to the result.

I wouldn't say "absolutely no evidence". The closest thing I can think of to transgenderism (is that a word?) in animals is found in bighorn sheep. There are biologically male sheep who act in every way as female sheep. They travel with the female herd and, unlike the rest of the biological males and like the females, will only allow themselves to be mounted by a male during mating season. This change has been linked both to structural changes in the brain and to hormone levels in utero, IIRC.

Actually, transvestitism and transexuality appear to be just as common in conservative societies. Indeed, some studies even suggest that transexuality is MORE common among people who hold extremely traditional views on gender roles.

On the other hand, in a very liberal family, your parents would be more likely to simply say, "Ok, our son wants to play with dolls, wear dresses, and learn to sew. No sweat." You learn that boys are allowed to have the feelings you have, and to want the things you want. There is no need for you to choose between being a boy and being who you feel you are.

An article about two young boys was recently posted here. I'll see if I can find it. The boys were fraternal twins, but were very different. One boy was what most would consider a "typical" boy. He loves playing with army men and his room is decorated pretty typically. The other is more "feminine". He paints his nails, plays with dolls, and his room is decorated in unicorns and pastels. The boys' mother has encouraged them to be who they are, rather than trying to fit them into gender roles.

However, when asked why he thought he was so different from his brother, the "feminine" boy answered that he was supposed to be a girl in the first place. Now, this could still be because of general societal stereotypes, but he has been raised in about as much of a supportive atmosphere as possible, and still identifies himself as a girl.

Here is the exact quote:


Then there's the question of how something in the womb could affect one twin but not the other. There are many more questions at this point than answers, but the scientists 60 Minutes spoke to are increasingly convinced that genes, hormones, or both — that something is happening to determine sexual orientation before birth. Adam has come up with his own theory.

"I was supposed to be a girl in my mom's stomach. But my mom wished for all boys. So, I turned into a boy," Adam explained.

Asked if he wished he was a girl, Adam nodded.

"Do you think there was anything that you could have done that would have changed Adam?" Stahl asked Adam and Jared's mom Danielle.

"I could have changed Adam on the outside to where he would have showed me the macho boy that I would want as a boy. But that would not change who he is inside. And I think that would have damaged him a lot more," she said.

Stahl asked both boys if they are proud of the way they are, and both boys gave her big nods.

"Yup," Adam replied.

Women wear men's clothing as a matter of course in the Western world.

Indeed. I borrow my fiance's shirts fairly frequently =).

It is often life-threatening to pursue such surgeries on children. There are also cases when it is medically best to wait until the child has begun puberty before there is any move made to "choose" a gender for the child. I'm sure you aren't suggesting that parents endanger their children's health simply to force them to conform.

Indeed. According to this person, you should immediately choose a gender - one that your child may or may not conform to. Wouldn't it make more senst to do any "corrective surgery" once the child is old enough to be the one doing the choosing?

Ok, now I know that usually my pet trolls die faster than goldfish, but this one sounds very robust and frisky. I'm sure he'll live longer than the others. Can I keep him?
No. :D

We need him for research.

He could be The One.

No. :D

We need him for research.

He could be The One.

Don't delete him! I must learn of the evils of 'Liberals' and their AID Injections!

No. :D

We need him for research.

He could be The One.
I've noticed that unlike other mods, sometimes you let the trolls dance before you vaporize them.

Perhaps you want them to feel they are doing well before ceasing to exist?

^^ says the moron that apparently doesn't enjoy the fact that he/ she came from a MOTHER AND A FATHER...

Oh how insensitive of me, are you the offspring of 2 mommies and a test tube??? 2 fathers, a test tube, and one of their dyke friends??? Like it or not homos cannot pro-create naturally.

Pardon me? I have no problem with either my mother, my father, or the fact that I came from their union.

As your random attacks and assumptions came out of no where, I'll just assume that you have no intelligent reasons to give and are simply trying to avoid the topic by being inflammatory.

If you're going to be insulting do attempt to actually hit home and not fly off into areas that have nothing to do with the thread or myself. Otherwise you just look silly.

I've noticed that unlike other mods, sometimes you let the trolls dance before you vaporize them.

Perhaps you want them to feel they are doing well before ceasing to exist?
Hmm... intriguing theory... ;)

Hmm... intriguing theory... ;)

You do realize that trolls reproduce by fission, like most bacteria...

I think I'm like that. All kidding aside, sence I was a very little kid, I've always thought I would have fit better in a girls body. I'm a guy, and a rather attractive guy at that, and my penis is fully functional (and quite large I must add, so as it is not confused with being of arbitrary size, etc), however I always thought I'd have fit better as a girl. People that know me well say I have alot of feminine and masculan charactaristics, and I'm fine with that... it's a little weird for people who first meet me, and sometimes it shows through more than others (eg, when people first meet me they think I'm just a normal guy, and most people that know me do, however my best of friends notice it to a great extent, although I don't hide it.) The rather weird catch is that I'm not gay (in the sence that, I'm in a male body, and I don't have or want to have sex with males.) I don't know weather that means that because I'm psychologically more female, and I have sex (and healthy relationships) with females that I would be gay or not. I consider myself not to be, just for the sake of simplicity, but I do wonder sometimes what it actually means. It doesn't bother me though, I'm kinda used to it, and when I enter into relationships with women, oddly enough they are ususally quite tomboyish, and I think that reflects how I am to an extent. It used to bother me alot, wondering if I was fucked up, or if I was gay, or whatever, but I've realized over the years that it doesn't really matter that much, and that most people end up liking me anyway, so what the hell. I am cautious as to who I tell however, I don't necessarily like the extra attention that it brings, however all my best friends and almost all my sexual partners either figured it out themselves or I clairified for them sometime along the line, and none of them have a problem with it. I think it's kinda cool... I get girls that do guy shit, and I'm sort of cougth in between, so I enjoy doing guy stuff as well. I always thought guys were generally more fun, but I was never sexually attracted to them, so this way I get the best of both worlds. I mean, come on, my last girlfriend rebuilt chevy bigblocks for the hell of it. :D

Just checking in at the end of my lunch... y'know, I used to get very upset when I'd read crap like Liberal Extinction spewed here, earlier. It used to really get under my skin when assholes made whopping great assumptions about people like me.

Well, LE - lemme tell you - I'm very uncomfortable with (certain) fetishists, too. In particular, those who fetishize blind hatred and ignorance as virtues. More than uncomfortable; I am repulsed. Utterly repulsed.

I suppose you'd be happiest if the brand of vitriolic, bilious spite you sport were to so negatively impact one of your fellow humans to the point they might elect to take a foolish course of action and hurt themselves, or maybe even kill themselves.

Unfortunately, I have to get back to my workday; and from what I can see, there are others on this thread who would seem to have the moxy, not to mention the time on their hands, to do what's right, and roundly thump creeps like LE. And friends - this lil' tranny thanks you all for it. You're part of everything in this world that is right, and good, and makes sense - even to a supposedly "confused"-type like me.

See you all later.

Oh you foolish lie-buls. Why do you support these digusting deviants? If a man thinks he's a women, I say "Hand him a meat cleaver and let him get on with if it he's so sure." myself.

Oh you foolish lie-buls. Why do you support these digusting deviants? If a man thinks he's a women, I say "Hand him a meat cleaver and let him get on with if it he's so sure." myself.
Thankfully most of them are smarter then that and go to a qualified professional to change what needs to be changed

Transgendered people are born the opposite gender to their sex. Simple. It's not a whim, not a sudden, "Hey, I'd like to be a girl (guy)" for a week. Many transgendered people are aware of their true gender very early on. My brother figures he was about five when he knew.

No...your true gender is defined by which reproductive organs God gives you; anybody who thinks they are of 'another gender' to the one they physically are has been manipulated by Satan.

No...your true gender is defined by which reproductive organs God gives you; anybody who thinks they are of 'another gender' to the one they physically are has been manipulated by Satan.
Thats part of it but not all
gen·der (jndr)
n.

1.The sex of an individual, male or female, based on reproductive anatomy.
2.Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.


They are talking about def 2

No...your true gender is defined by which reproductive organs God gives you;

No, at best, that is your biological sex.

Besdies, sometimes God gives you organs that are not distinctly male or female. What then?

No...your true gender is defined by which reproductive organs God gives you; anybody who thinks they are of 'another gender' to the one they physically are has been manipulated by Satan.

Satan, huh? http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/part_I/mm01_toc.html
This seems right up your alley, then. Manipulated by Satan? Because they are different then you that atomatically means that they were manipulated by Lucifer? You are that afraid of stuff that you dont understand that you straight away lump it in with the "Evillllll!!! Burn it!!!" category?!! Urrgh, I wish people would stop being so self rightous, so "My God is a powerful God, he will burn you away with his eyes if you are a 'sexual deviant'" There is nothing wrong with wanting to be physically who you know you are mentally.:(

I guess the real question would be this:

Say you were in the scenario in Blake Edward's "Switch": you woke up one morning and discovered you were a woman (obviously, this scenario applies to the males in the forum, so forgive the exclusion). Would you spend the rest of your life dressing and acting like a woman or would you try to find some way to become the male you remember being?Personally, it wouldn't be that big of a deal for me, since I think life would be easier if I were a woman. However, I'd make an ugly woman, so I don't feel the need to go about making this happen in real life. So if this scenario occurred, I'd probably simply have cosmetic surgery to make myself a more attractive woman instead of having sex reassignment surgery.

Satan, huh? http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/part_I/mm01_toc.html
This seems right up your alley, then. Manipulated by Satan? Because they are different then you that atomatically means that they were manipulated by Lucifer? You are that afraid of stuff that you dont understand that you straight away lump it in with the "Evillllll!!! Burn it!!!" category?!! Urrgh, I wish people would stop being so self rightous, so "My God is a powerful God, he will burn you away with his eyes if you are a 'sexual deviant'" There is nothing wrong with wanting to be physically who you know you are mentally.:(

Are you saying THE LORD will not smite these abominations down? Rest assured, they will be smote mightily when the time comes.

No...your true gender is defined by which reproductive organs God gives you; anybody who thinks they are of 'another gender' to the one they physically are has been manipulated by Satan.

Rubbish, yet again. If one feels that they belong to another Gender, then they should be whatever Gender they feel that should be. There's nothing wrong with that.


I mean, Satanic Manipulation, for Gods sake. Who the fuck believes that, these days?

Are you saying THE LORD will not smite these abominations down? Rest assured, they will be smote mightily when the time comes.

I'm sure THE LORD (Of which there is no evidence that He exists) will care for them in whatever shape they are. Or is there another verse from that 2,000 year old piece of fiction that says you can't be Transgendered?

I'm sure THE LORD (Of which there is no evidence that He exists) will care for them in whatever shape they are. Or is there another verse from that 2,000 year old piece of fiction that says you can't be Transgendered?

They count as sodomites and we all know what happens to them, don't we?! I'll forgive your remarks as it's clear that Satan has clouded your mind and soul. I will pray that Jesus saves you.

They count as sodomites and we all know what happens to them, don't we?! I'll forgive your remarks as it's clear that Satan has clouded your mind and soul. I will pray that Jesus saves you.

Fictional characters can save you, now? I didn't know that. I might pray to someone else though. Captain Kirk was badass; he could probably put up a better fight than Jesus.

Where do they count as Sodomites, by the way? Cite a verse, please. And anyway, why should it matter that they're 'Sodomites'. What's wrong with a bit of bumsex now and again?

Homosexuals can love and feel just as well as heterosexuals. They're no different to you and I, you know.

Fictional characters can save you, now? I didn't know that. I might pray to someone else though. Captain Kirk was badass; he could probably put up a better fight than Jesus.

Where do they count as Sodomites, by the way? Cite a verse, please. And anyway, why should it matter that they're 'Sodomites'. What's wrong with a bit of bumsex now and again?

Homosexuals can love and feel just as well as heterosexuals. They're no different to you and I, you know.

That's what you think. Homosexual blood turns green on contact with air, did you know that? I learnt that from a very respectable man, not one of you bumfun obbsessed buggerists! Homos don't have feelings, they just have urges.

Jesus will kill you for mocking him I'm afraid. Then you will go to hell and BURN LIKE ALL LIEBRULS WILL.

Fictional characters can save you, now? I didn't know that. I might pray to someone else though. Captain Kirk was badass; he could probably put up a better fight than Jesus.

Where do they count as Sodomites, by the way? Cite a verse, please. And anyway, why should it matter that they're 'Sodomites'. What's wrong with a bit of bumsex now and again?

Homosexuals can love and feel just as well as heterosexuals. They're no different to you and I, you know.


Apart from the fact that homosexuality is evil and the Lord calls for the execution of sodomists.

That's what you think. Homosexual blood turns green on contact with air, did you know that? I learnt that from a very respectable man, not one of you bumfun obbsessed buggerists! Homos don't have feelings, they just have urges.

Jesus will kill you for mocking him I'm afraid. Then you will go to hell and BURN LIKE ALL LIEBRULS WILL.

Amen. May the Lord's mercy filter on down to the mods.

They count as sodomites and we all know what happens to them, don't we?! I'll forgive your remarks as it's clear that Satan has clouded your mind and soul. I will pray that Jesus saves you.
DCD? that you

Are you saying THE LORD will not smite these abominations down? Rest assured, they will be smote mightily when the time comes.

Where did we get the bible from? God? NO. It was written by a lot of different people thousands of years ago. And there are sooooo many technicalities and indescrepancies and just..things that dont make sense. Like why God would make people Gay and then condemn them to hell. (Romans 1: 18-32). Doesnt make sense. No, I'm sorry, but all this religous mumbo jumbo about "oh, you're gay, you're transgendered, you will burn in eternal hellfire, God hates fags!" really gets my knickers in a bunch.

Hey, btw Urikistan, did you follow my link?:D It was written by some like minded people, you should enjoy it.

That's what you think. Homosexual blood turns green on contact with air, did you know that? I learnt that from a very respectable man, not one of you bumfun obbsessed buggerists! Homos don't have feelings, they just have urges.

Jesus will kill you for mocking him I'm afraid. Then you will go to hell and BURN LIKE ALL LIEBRULS WILL.

Ahhhh!


Sorry mate, didn't catch on. Thought you really believed that tripe for a few posts. Nice one! Makes people see what people like Georgia below are really like. Well done!

Apart from the fact that homosexuality is evil and the Lord calls for the execution of sodomists.

Kindly piss off and debate homosexuality in a homosexulity thread.

The Bible was written with the Divine Inspiration of our Lord, the Creator and must be taken as the literal truth.

Apart from the fact that homosexuality is evil and the Lord calls for the execution of sodomists.

Ah yes. And because a 2,000 year old, mass edited and reproduced piece of fiction says that people should be killed, then it must be done, of course.


And you wonder why Christians have such a bad reputation? It's because of garbage like this.

The Bible was written with the Divine Inspiration of our Lord, the Creator and must be taken as the literal truth.
Better not be wearing a Tshirt then lol

Ah yes. And because a 2,000 year old, mass edited and reproduced piece of fiction says that people should be killed, then it must be done, of course.


And you wonder why Christians have such a bad reputation? It's because of garbage like this.

You will go to Hell, if you do not repent.

Ahhhh!


Sorry mate, didn't catch on. Thought you really believed that tripe for a few posts. Nice one! Makes people see what people like Georgia below are really like. Well done!
I know its rare to see one that holds up to jesussaves that’s why I asked if was Commies lol

Kindly piss off and debate homosexuality in a homosexulity thread.

It's all the same.

It's all the same.
....no.

No it's not.

You will go to Hell, if you do not repent.

1) I sincerely doubt that 'Hell' exists.

2) If, by some fluke of fate, it does, then good. Maybe I'll join up with Satan and party with him; dude seems to know how to have a good time, what with the raping and the pillaging and looting an' all.

3) Kindly take your 'HOMSEXUALS SHOD DIE' 'debating' somewhere else.

DCD? that you

Sir, I must confess that I do not know who you speak of.

Where did we get the bible from? God? NO. It was written by a lot of different people thousands of years ago. And there are sooooo many technicalities and indescrepancies and just..things that dont make sense. Like why God would make people Gay and then condemn them to hell. (Romans 1: 18-32). Doesnt make sense. No, I'm sorry, but all this religous mumbo jumbo about "oh, you're gay, you're transgendered, you will burn in eternal hellfire, God hates fags!" really gets my knickers in a bunch.

The Bible is 100% God's Word. Only a witch or a Satan Druid would say otherwise. God made some people gay in order to test them. If they act upon their gayness, then they failed! F- for you, Captain Gayman/women! The so-called "transgendered" know this much and so try to get around Gods law, they think if they turn their body into a womens (in the case of the gays) they won't BURN for having sex with men!

It's all the same.

As are all followers of The Ann Coulter Bloodsucking Cult (State Of Georgia here is member number 1 !)

Sir, I must confess that I do not know who you speak of.



snip the parody bit
Drunk Commies is a poster that made a parody with the name "JesusSaves" he acted very much like you thats why I asked

Lol I hope you are not a regular poster he got deated for being a parody when he was found out. It saddens me such humor is rare

Drunk Commies is a poster that made a parody with the name "JesusSaves" he acted very much like you thats why I asked

Lol I hope you are not a regular poster he got deated for being a parody when he was found out. It saddens me such humor is rare

Well, i can only hope that no one notices any parodic elements in my posts! I stand behind my words 100%!

Well, i can only hope that no one notices any parodic elements in my posts! I stand behind my words 100%!
Im sure you do lol ;)

Well, i can only hope that no one notices any parodic elements in my posts! I stand behind my words 100%!

Sure ya do! Never doubted you for a ssecond!



*Wink*

Sure ya do! Never doubted you for a ssecond!



*Wink*
Lol you sound like me ... kind of creepy lol

....no.

No it's not.

It is all satanic like murder, rape and robbery.

It is all satanic like murder, rape and robbery.

And wearing clothes made out of two materials.

Of course, it's not like Satan or God actually exist so the point is moot.

Amen. May the Lord's mercy filter on down to the mods.
Did u reply Amen to Urik's post about blood turning green????

You arent doing any favors for anyone's opinion of Georgia. Don't you have a cave you belong in or something?

The Bible is 100% God's Word. Only a witch or a Satan Druid would say otherwise. God made some people gay in order to test them. If they act upon their gayness, then they failed! F- for you, Captain Gayman/women! The so-called "transgendered" know this much and so try to get around Gods law, they think if they turn their body into a womens (in the case of the gays) they won't BURN for having sex with men!

Do you read the bible? Are you familiar with the passage I quoted? I have read everything in the bible concerning homosexuality, and the bible condemns it.But God makes people that way, right? How Fucking Messed Up Is That? "You there, stand over in that corner and have gender confusion." "Hey you, what in my name are you doing over there with gender confusion?!! Eternal suffering for you in the next life!" Doesnt make sense. A test? A God Damn Fucking Test? I've alredy had enough of those, thank you. And transgendered women who have sex with men are not gay, they are women who have sex with men.

It is all satanic like murder, rape and robbery.
Murder rape and robbery are all crimes which have victims. Not at all the case with transgender or homosexual people. I hope you are of an older generation than mine. That people still think like that in my generation makes my skin crawl.

And transgendered women who have sex with men are not gay, they are women who have sex with men.

They're evil, that's what they are. A transgendered woman is a man.

Do you read the bible? Are you familiar with the passage I quoted? I have read everything in the bible concerning homosexuality, and the bible condemns it.But God makes people that way, right? How Fucking Messed Up Is That? "You there, stand over in that corner and have gender confusion." "Hey you, what in my name are you doing over there with gender confusion?!! Eternal suffering for you in the next life!" Doesnt make sense. A test? A God Damn Fucking Test? I've alredy had enough of those, thank you. And transgendered women who have sex with men are not gay, they are women who have sex with men.

I read the hand outs they give out at Church every day, that's more Holy Scripture then you'll ever see! As I said, God makes people gay to test them, it's not His fault if they cannot stave off their demonic impulses and avoid sticking parts of themselves into people of the same gender! A man who thinks cheating and becoming a women is still a gay if they have sex with men, go tell that to Clinton and tell him I send you!

They're evil, that's what they are. A transgendered woman is a man.
Nope god blessed them with the ability to make choices in their life. They are doing gods work by making sure they glorify not only who they are but what they can become.

Nope god blessed them with the ability to make choices in their life. They are doing Gods work by making sure they glorify not only who they are but what they can become.

They are following Satan down a slippery slope to the fiery pits of the eternal damnation of Hell.

They're evil, that's what they are. A transgendered woman is a man.

Oh bugger, I'm evil then. :eek:

"Well, from my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"

"Well then you are lost!"
:p

God's design is a heck of a lot better than man's

They're evil, that's what they are. A transgendered woman is a man.


This isn't a religious debate, so why are you bringing your narrowmindedness and condemnation into it?

Repent Now And Have Your Soul Saved When You Accept Jesus Christ As Your Personal Savior.

God's design is a heck of a lot better than man's
Really? God would have failed at engineering school lol

Repent Now And Have Your Soul Saved When You Accept Jesus Christ As Your Personal Savior.

I'd Rather Rot In The Ground

Repent Now And Have Your Soul Saved When You Accept Jesus Christ As Your Personal Savior.
What is that a title to something lol … why is it when people get evangelical they capitalize every word lol

Oh bugger, I'm evil then. :eek:

Yeah, it's nice to find out from a troll on an internet forum, isn't it?

Really? God would have failed at engineering school lol

I like to see you try a make something like a human from scratch, actually I don't think I'd want to see that monster

Yeah, it's nice to find out from a troll on an internet forum, isn't it?

He's broken my girly innocence! :p

What is that a title to something lol … why is it when people get evangelical they capitalize every word lol

why are you caping every word

Repent Now And Have Your Soul Saved When You Accept Jesus Christ As Your Personal Savior.
The State of Georgia and Urikistan have been granted the opportunity to accept me as their personal saviour. They have seven days in which to consider this offer of salvation through adoption of the Forum Rules as their one guiding text.

I like to see you try a make something like a human from scratch, actually I don't think I'd want to see that monster
Lol but I am not omnipotent like “god” who creates beings with obvious flaws in the design.
“He did better then you can do” is not an excuse when we are dealing with someone that is supposedly all knowing and powerful lol

The State of Georgia and Urikistan have been granted the opportunity to accept me as their personal saviour. They have seven days in which to consider this offer of salvation through adoption of the Forum Rules as their one guiding text.
Amen :p

He's broken my girly innocence! :p
:)

Lol but I am not omnipotent like “god” who creates beings with obvious flaws in the design.
“He did better then you can do” is not an excuse when we are dealing with someone that is supposedly all knowing and powerful lol

Did you pass engineering school?

why are you caping every word
I am not, just sentence beginnings.

Did you pass engineering school?
Got a minor in EE yea my focus is computers and networking though.

How would you know? Ever been one?

Yeah, didn't think so.

"abnormal" - huh.

*snorts with open derision*

What are you rambling about?


Yes abnormal.

As in not normal.

As in a majority of the population doesn't go around having there penises chopped off and stuffed up and inside of them.

I asked that because if you did then you were saying that you were smarter than God so the argument that I mad earlier would be fitting

Did you pass engineering school?

If this is the best God can do, I'm not impressed. Results like this do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of stuff you'sd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude.
~George Carlin

What are you rambling about?


Yes abnormal.

As in not normal.

As in a majority of the population doesn't go around having there penises chopped off and stuffed up and inside of them.

Hell, a majority of the population don't even have penises to get chopped off! That, clearly, makes those with penises abnormal.

I asked that because if you did then you were saying that you were smarter than God so the argument that I mad earlier would be fitting
Though though it makes my argument stronger lol as I am not a physical engineer and I can even see the flaws in the human body lol

who said anything about if it's the best he can do?

Though though it makes my argument stronger lol as I am not a physical engineer and I can even see the flaws in the human body lol

it didn't have flaws in the beginning, because of sin now it does

who said anything about if it's the best he can do?
Ah so he purposely put painful and sometimes deadly flaws in a thinking feeling creation

What an asshole

it didn't have flaws in the beginning, because of sin now it does
So sin changed the design of our body … that’s a new one to me

who said anything about if it's the best he can do?

So now you're saying that God isn't living up to his full potential? Thats sad!
Though I always say, "a supreme being is so much more than a bad test score"
:)

So now you're saying that God isn't living up to his full potential? Thats sad!
Though I always say, "a supreme being is so much more than a bad test score"
:)

well if you're going to put words in my mouth

it didn't have flaws in the beginning, because of sin now it does

So sin is responsible for the shabby state of our knees? :O Curses! I wonder what they were like before sin?

it didn't have flaws in the beginning, because of sin now it does

Ah come on now, troublemaker she may be, but you can't blame her for everything! :p

...For those of you who missed my earlier post of thanks for your support, snowed in as it was under a veritable flurry of willful ignorance and upturned noses this afternoon, let me reiterate:

"You're part of everything in this world that is right, and good, and makes sense."

And again, thank you.

What, is it lame to show appreciation all of a sudden?

What, is it lame to show appreciation all of a sudden?{{{hugs}}} Nope, keep it coming. :)

What, is it lame to show appreciation all of a sudden?

Well, I didn't want to say anything in case I wasn't included in that. Wouldn't want to be presumptuous.

What, is it lame to show appreciation all of a sudden?
Course Not. :)

Well, I didn't want to say anything in case I wasn't included in that. Wouldn't want to be presumptuous.
Oh, honestly Nadkor - I can't think as to how I could've been any more inclusive in my thanks-giving.

It's safe to assume you're one of the good ones here.

:)

Oh, honestly Nadkor - I can't think as to how I could've been any more inclusive in my thanks-giving.

Well, I didn't want to assume, you know? Didn't think to assume...

It's safe to assume you're one of the good ones here.

:)

Thanks, same goes for you :)