NationStates Jolt Archive

Apparently the President of Slovenia, Dr. Janez Drnovšek, is a vegan. He's given an interview explaining why. I'm a vegetarian myself, and, well... interesting stuff.


If we think for a moment how man manages animals and what impact he has on animal world, we could say he was not human at all. Just think of all slaughterhouses and production of beef or poultry where conditions for animals are impossible. Often animals are transported in lorries without any water, which is extremely cruel. It is not that people are bad they just don't think about it. When the final product is in front of them on the plate, they don't think what was has been before and how it got to this stage.

[...]

If a person's conscience is highly developed they will not kill or be cruel to animals. You can not expect from such person to go to war and kill people for a profit. People who do not kill and eat animals have a greater chance of finding a way to live in peace in harmony. Everything is interconnected in one's conscience. On a higher level one comes with the other.
Making people more aware is the key.

[...]

Again it's a question of consciousness of people. People often automatically accept the behavioral patterns without questioning them. Only when you question something, you can change your point of view and become more aware of what you are buying.

The entire interview can be found here (http://www.evana.org/index.php?id=8653&lang=en).

Finally a politician I can admire. :D

For some reason I object to the accusation that if you eat meat, you don't have a properly developed conscience.

I can't think why... :rolleyes:

I don't see how one can give up the great taste of meat just to be kind to animals. It's just plain weird.

Animals hunt, kill, and eat other animals for survival.

Humans are animals.

Do the math. You can say humans dont hunt, but humans are too smart for that and domesticated animals worthy of eating.

I hate the vegans who think they are on some moral highground because they dont eat meat. They still kill animals. I am sure millions of animals die during the harvesting of their precious soy and wheat. And those pesticides kill alot more.

At least I eat the animals that I kill. Well actually I dont kill the animals I just eat them. And I happen to praise the animal that died for my survival.

While I can see humans evolving to the point in which they are completely herbivorous, we are not there yet. We still have canines, which are meant for ripping through flesh, as well as incisors commonly found in omnivores, which humans are.

I am not a vegetarian but I think people eat too much meat, and I distrust the meat industry. The moral argument for vegetarianism is bullshit. Plants are every bit as alive as animals.

If you're against animals being exploited, then you must also be vegan, because they're as much exploited for their milk as they are for their flesh.

Steering clear of the meat industry is a good reason not to be vegetarian. There are many dodgy practices.

There's plenty of room for ALL God's creatures....


















































Right next to the mashed potatoes.

(Sign seen, of all places, CANADA!)

:D

I am not a vegetarian but I think people eat too much meat, and I distrust the meat industry. The moral argument for vegetarianism is bullshit. Plants are every bit as alive as animals.

If you're against animals being exploited, then you must also be vegan, because they're as much exploited for their milk as they are for their flesh.

Steering clear of the meat industry is a good reason not to be vegetarian. There are many dodgy practices.

While I agree that the meat industry is FUBAR, just sitting there not eating meat isnt going to change that.

Stupid vegans.

Animals hunt, kill, and eat other animals for survival.

Humans are animals.

So you're claiming humans have no ethical conscience? You object to murder and theft, I assume? If you ever say something is "wrong", then you agree that humans have an ethical conscience which they are able to use. Unlike animals, you make a choice in this matter.

Also, most meat-eating animals are carnivores, and do indeed eat meat because it is vital for their survival. It is not necessary for the survival of humans, as you well know.


Plants are every bit as alive as animals.


Oh, for goodness' sake. Plants do not suffer. They don't feel fear, mental anguish and extreme physical pain.

Anyway, I'm not going to take part in a debate. I don't usually proselytise; I just thought this was interesting and deserved to be spread around a bit. And I do agree with Dr. Drnovšek's view on awareness.

So you're claiming humans have no ethical conscience? You object to murder and theft, I assume? If you ever say something is "wrong", then you agree that humans have an ethical conscience which they are able to use. Unlike animals, you make a choice in this matter.

I do make a choice, to eat an animal to gain the nutrients I need for survival, which I do not think is wrong in any way.

Also, most meat-eating animals are carnivores, and do indeed eat meat because it is vital for their survival. It is not necessary for the survival of humans, as you well know.

And humans are omnivores, who eat both meat and plants.

Oh, for goodness' sake. Plants do not suffer. They don't feel fear, mental anguish and extreme physical pain.

How do you know that plants dont? Furthermore, how do you know that animals do?

Bah.... Moral vegans piss me off. Meat isn't murder, because animals lack the mental capacity to truly understand death as an ending. Animals don't feel grief (except for some, more advanced feelings), animals don't have a sense of right and wrong, and animals do not truly attain higher feelings. In that regard, killing an animal is like picking a blade of grass. We should be careful not to drive them extinct (purely out of the self-interested notion that bio-diversity makes more genes available to the medical community to study for new cures), but at the same time not care about the individual creatures. Killing a person is awful, killing an animal is necessity (unless it isn't, in which case it's wasteful).

There are smart reasons for vegitarianism that have nothing to do with misplaced morals. Why don't evangelizing vegans use those?*

*That was rhetorical. The answer is dogma. Like every other group that knows their moral agenda must be true, vegans know animals must be people too.

I can understand hıs thought process and I says good for hım.

Anyhow I want my sırloın served medıum raw wıth a sıde of A1 :D

I, for one, welcome our new vegan overlords.

If it moos, oinks or clucks, I don't give a fuck. :)

How do you know that plants dont? Furthermore, how do you know that animals do?


well I don't know that plants dont, but I KNOW animals do. I don't need a million dollar scientific study to tell me the obvious, and neither should you, so I wont link to any.

pain - yes they feel it... Ever stepped on a dog or cats foot or tail by accident? That yelping is the result of pain. What else could it be?

fear and mental anguish... when a cat or dog runs and hides from thunder, and you find them shaking in their hiding place, I would call that fear as I can't see what else it would be. I made a thread after the 4th of July about my cat having PTSD from all the explosions. He is barely getting over it and is still nervous. I'd call this mental anguish.

well I don't know that plants dont, but I KNOW animals do. I don't need a million dollar scientific study to tell me the obvious, and neither should you, so I wont link to any.

pain - yes they feel it... Ever stepped on a dog or cats foot or tail by accident? That yelping is the result of pain. What else could it be?

fear and mental anguish... when a cat or dog runs and hides from thunder, and you find them shaking in their hiding place, I would call that fear as I can't see what else it would be. I made a thread after the 4th of July about my cat having PTSD from all the explosions. He is barely getting over it and is still nervous. I'd call this mental anguish.

Instinct does not imply emotion or pain.

well I don't know that plants dont, but I KNOW animals do. I don't need a million dollar scientific study to tell me the obvious, and neither should you, so I wont link to any.

pain - yes they feel it... Ever stepped on a dog or cats foot or tail by accident? That yelping is the result of pain. What else could it be?

fear and mental anguish... when a cat or dog runs and hides from thunder, and you find them shaking in their hiding place, I would call that fear as I can't see what else it would be. I made a thread after the 4th of July about my cat having PTSD from all the explosions. He is barely getting over it and is still nervous. I'd call this mental anguish.

Funny... The rest of us call those survival instincts. You know what? Turkey's don't have them. Free-range turkeys look up at the sky when it's raining and drown.

I still want my bacon, sorry...and pulled pork can't be beat.

wats the point in giving them water there gona die anyway? what kinda ironic answer is that?

I'm all for loathing people for their ideological viewpoints. But the amount of contempt and anger mentioning veganism brings out in people seems totally disproportionate to the matter at hand. Do people really feel that uncomfortable by the suggestion that they might ever be doing something wrong? Or does anyone have a better suggestion?

Funny... The rest of us call those survival instincts. You know what? Turkey's don't have them. Free-range turkeys look up at the sky when it's raining and drown.

Drown? In rain?

I hope you'll understand if I quite skeptical.


(Though I know they'll quite happily freeze to death even if there is shelter next to them)

Funny... The rest of us call those survival instincts. You know what? Turkey's don't have them. Free-range turkeys look up at the sky when it's raining and drown.

Parlez-vous "Snopes"? (http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/turkey.htm)

I'm all for loathing people for their ideological viewpoints. But the amount of contempt and anger mentioning veganism brings out in people seems totally disproportionate to the matter at hand.

Lest my post got taken as anti-vegan in any shape or form, I'll mention that I have been vegan since 1990..

Lest my post got taken as anti-vegan in any shape or form, I'll mention that I have been vegan since 1990..

I have to say I think Altruisma has a point though. It even extends somewhat to vegetarians.

Parlez-vous "Snopes"? (http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/turkey.htm)

Bah. They don't adress the issue of whether it happens, now do they? They just adress the issue that they aren't "looking up".

Besides which, it also points out that suffocate eachother in dogpiles.

Are lemmings a better example of lacking complex thought?

Are lemmings a better example of lacking complex thought?

You know the kamikaze lemmings also have a Snopes page?

I'm all for loathing people for their ideological viewpoints. But the amount of contempt and anger mentioning veganism brings out in people seems totally disproportionate to the matter at hand. Do people really feel that uncomfortable by the suggestion that they might ever be doing something wrong? Or does anyone have a better suggestion?

Nobody likes an evangelizing, self important, moralist. I react the same way to dumbfuck vegans that I do to dumbfuck door-to-door religion salesmen. I roll my eyes and tell them to bother someone who gives a fuck.

Bottom line is that people don't appreciate evangelizing on any side.

With that said, I'm gonna go get a few peices of ham. :p

Are lemmings a better example of lacking complex thought?

Why? Because employees of Disney herded them off cliffs?

You know the kamikaze lemmings also have a Snopes page?

Because, y'know, lemmings don't have a migration instinct that causes them to plunge off cliffs, right. :rolleyes:

Edit: Well I'll be damned...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemming#Population_fluctuations

Because, y'know, lemmings don't have a migration instinct that causes them to plunge off cliffs, right. :rolleyes:

Next time I'll be more explicit and link right to Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.htm), rather then hint that such a page exists.

Instinct does not imply emotion or pain.

so when a human gets burned/cut/something broken and crys out in pain, it's only instinct and has nothing to do with the discomfort? humans are animals are we not? what is it that makes a human feel pain? do these things exist in other animals?

when an animal limps because it's foot gets injured... why is it limping? don't you think it can feel that it's inujured? pahlease.

you dont think emotion has anythign to do with instinct? fear is not an instinctual emotion? I'd like you to explain that one to me.

when a dog sees it's owner and jumps up and down and all over the owner with obvious glee that isnt emotion? When the same dog sees a stranger on the property and it gets angry that it's space is being violated, that isnt emotion. What do you call emotion then?

do you ahve any pets?

so when a human gets burned/cut/something broken and crys out in pain, it's only instinct and has nothing to do with the discomfort? humans are animals are we not? what is it that makes a human feel pain? do these things exist in other animals?

when an animal limps because it's foot gets injured... why is it limping? don't you think it can feel that it's inujured? pahlease.

you dont think emotion has anythign to do with instinct? fear is not an instinctual emotion? I'd like you to explain that one to me.

when a dog sees it's owner and jumps up and down and all over the owner with obvious glee that isnt emotion? When the same dog sees a stranger on the property and it gets angry that it's space is being violated, that isnt emotion. What do you call emotion then?

do you ahve any pets?

Limping is an instinct as well. A limp is a response to keep from damaging the limb more. Fear and pain are instinctual in humans as well, why do you think we all have the same twitch reactions to sharp pain? Dogs have also developed the instinctual "pack" mindset that we bred them to have. That's why there are good guard dogs and very bad guard dogs.

I dunno about the other poster, but I have 4 cats.

Emotions themselves are not the only issue, since they are mostly wired into the brain. It's the ability to find self-actualization, to think above the level of the next meal. The fact that there are evangelizng vegans is what makes the difference between animals and people. We are capable of making that moral judgement, and of a level of suffering other animals (except for a distinct few) simply do not go through (the emotional sense of lasting greif, fore-knowledge of death, etc.).

That's the difference.

Limping is an instinct as well. A limp is a response to keep from damaging the limb more. Fear and pain are instinctual in humans as well, why do you think we all have the same twitch reactions to sharp pain? Dogs have also developed the instinctual "pack" mindset that we bred them to have. That's why there are good guard dogs and very bad guard dogs.

I dunno about the other poster, but I have 4 cats.

Emotions themselves are not the only issue, since they are mostly wired into the brain. It's the ability to find self-actualization, to think above the level of the next meal. The fact that there are evangelizng vegans is what makes the difference between animals and people. We are capable of making that moral judgement, and of a level of suffering other animals (except for a distinct few) simply do not go through (the emotional sense of lasting greif, fore-knowledge of death, etc.).

That's the difference.

so then yes animals feel pain and emotion?

I dont believe I said anything about self-actualization and dont see how this pertains to my post at all. I am not saying anyone should be vegan or vegetarian. Eat whatever youw ant to eat. :confused:

wait... pain is an instinct?

so then yes animals feel pain and emotion?

I dont believe I said anything about self-actualization and dont see how this pertains to my post at all. I am not saying anyone should be vegan or vegetarian. Eat whatever youw ant to eat. :confused:


I'd say so (although in a very different way from people, who understand the concepts of fear and pain, and can therefore overcome them to a certain degree), but I don't know if the other fellow would.

I'd say so (although in a very different way from people, who understand the concepts of fear and pain, and can therefore overcome them to a certain degree), but I don't know if the other fellow would.

then we agee

I think it takes a willful ignorance to believe that animals dont feel pain or emotions.

I was never claiming that other animals have the same mental capacity as humans.

I was goign to ask if Kazus would mind if I came over and repeatedly stuck a long needle repeatedly into his pets muscles as long as I didnt damage the pet for life. I mean, if his pet doesnt feel pain or fear and it's going to heal back to normal then what would be the big deal?

then we agee

I think it takes a willful ignorance to believe that animals dont feel pain or emotions.

I was never claiming that other animals have the same mental capacity as humans.

I was goign to ask if Kazus would mind if I came over and repeatedly stuck a long needle repeatedly into his pets muscles as long as I didnt damage the pet for life. I mean, if his pet doesnt feel pain or fear and it's going to heal back to normal then what would be the big deal?

:eek: You're a vet, aren't you? :p

:eek: You're a vet, aren't you? :p

a vetran or a veterinarian? :D

neither actually - just sadistic vegetarian :cool:

wait... pain is an instinct?

Well... Yes.

After all, pain is just nerves transmitting signals to you informing you that you are injured, or came close to being injured. You'll notice that the response to pain in animals is fight-or-flight. It's a trigger of sorts.

a vetran or a veterinarian? :D

neither actually - just sadistic vegetarian :cool:

My cats are glaring at my computer screen. I'd be careful about where I slept if I were you. :p

Well... Yes.

After all, pain is just nerves transmitting signals to you informing you that you are injured, or came close to being injured. You'll notice that the response to pain in animals is fight-or-flight. It's a trigger of sorts.


wouldnt the instinct be the reaction to the pain and not the pain itself? well I guess the pain is our brains reaction to physical stimuli, but I mean pain seems more like a biological function like the beating of a heart. To me it's like saying that it's instinct to digest food. :p

My cats are glaring at my computer screen. I'd be careful about where I slept if I were you. :p

:eek:

omg I hope they dont email my cat and lets him know what I've been saying - he loves to sit there and watch me while I sleep and I can sense that he is plotting something.

wouldnt the instinct be the reaction to the pain and not the pain itself? well I guess the pain is our brains reaction to physical stimuli, but I mean pain seems more like a biological function like the beating of a heart. To me it's like saying that it's instinct to digest food. :p

Meh... A mere technicality.

That'll teach me to try and simplify my posts to save time. :D

:eek:

omg I hope they dont email my cat and lets him know what I've been saying - he loves to sit there and watch me while I sleep and I can sense that he is plotting something.

I'd just be more careful about the emails I got from Purrsian_beauty5569@ mEow-Mail. com, That's all I'm saying. :p

I'd just be more careful about the emails I got from Purrsian_beauty5569@ mEow-Mail. com, That's all I'm saying. :p


*promptly blocks address*