NationStates Jolt Archive

Apparently part of the I90 tunnel in Boston collapsed, crushed a car and killed one of the occupants. Employees from the largest concrete supplier for the project have already been under investigation for some time, for falsifying records relating to the quality of the concrete supplied.

More at: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/12/bigdigdeath.ap/index.html

Now I first heard about the investigation earlier this summer, and wondered how anyone at the company was in a position to falsify quality management records in the first place. Here in the UK, the law states that for every batch of concrete (ie every truckload), the supplier has to submit several samples to the primary contractor / client at the time of the pour, which are immediately sent to an independent laboratory for strength testing at various stages in the curing process. Samples are also retained for the duration of the warranty period (ie several years) or longer, to ensure testing is possible in the event of subsequent disputes. No sample, no pay.

So how did these guys falsify records? Breaking into an independent laboratory's offices? Or are people permitted to build structures of that size without independent oversight of the quality and traceability of every delivery of building materials? :eek:

Well, the problem with the way the US does things is that everything from public buildings to the space shuttle is built by the lowest bidder.

We rely very strongly on the Someone Else's Problem factor.

So how did these guys falsify records? Breaking into an independent laboratory's offices? Or are people permitted to build structures of that size without independent oversight of the quality and traceability of every delivery of building materials? :eek:Look on the bright side: Less oversight means less bureaucracy and is good for business. On the downside, if things go wrong...

Well, the problem with the way the US does things is that everything from public buildings to the space shuttle is built by the lowest bidder.

We rely very strongly on the Someone Else's Problem factor.
From what I have seen of the UK construction industry, a difference in bids of a few percent is not so important if you are assured of getting good value for money. And whichever bid you accept, the attendant quality management bureaucracy is included in the price.

Apparently part of the I90 tunnel in Boston collapsed, crushed a car and killed one of the occupants. Employees from the largest concrete supplier for the project have already been under investigation for some time, for falsifying records relating to the quality of the concrete supplied.

More at: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/12/bigdigdeath.ap/index.html

Now I first heard about the investigation earlier this summer, and wondered how anyone at the company was in a position to falsify quality management records in the first place. Here in the UK, the law states that for every batch of concrete (ie every truckload), the supplier has to submit several samples to the primary contractor / client at the time of the pour, which are immediately sent to an independent laboratory for strength testing at various stages in the curing process. Samples are also retained for the duration of the warranty period (ie several years) or longer, to ensure testing is possible in the event of subsequent disputes. No sample, no pay.

So how did these guys falsify records? Breaking into an independent laboratory's offices? Or are people permitted to build structures of that size without independent oversight of the quality and traceability of every delivery of building materials? :eek:
re writing results, bribing testers... who knows.

also I though everyone was under investigation, including the head of MTA.

From what I have seen of the UK construction industry, a difference in bids of a few percent is not so important if you are assured of getting good value for money. And whichever bid you accept, the attendant quality management bureaucracy is included in the price.

That's too complex for the US. All we care about is the bottom line. Quality hasn't mattered to us since the 50s.

From what I have seen of the UK construction industry, a difference in bids of a few percent is not so important if you are assured of getting good value for money. And whichever bid you accept, the attendant quality management bureaucracy is included in the price.
Socialism! Government oversight of business! Communism! Terrorists win!

So by the time the independent lab has tested the sample at all stages of the curing process, it's like ... rock-hard? Bet the lads on the site would be pleased.

What's wrong with the touch-snuff-scuff method? You rub a bit between your fingers, sniff it or taste it, and kick it with your boot to see if it's strong enough? Crikey, it was good enough for the Sydney Opera House. OOps!

Yes, I just made that up.

Apparently part of the I90 tunnel in Boston collapsed, crushed a car and killed one of the occupants. Employees from the largest concrete supplier for the project have already been under investigation for some time, for falsifying records relating to the quality of the concrete supplied.

More at: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/12/bigdigdeath.ap/index.html

Now I first heard about the investigation earlier this summer, and wondered how anyone at the company was in a position to falsify quality management records in the first place. Here in the UK, the law states that for every batch of concrete (ie every truckload), the supplier has to submit several samples to the primary contractor / client at the time of the pour, which are immediately sent to an independent laboratory for strength testing at various stages in the curing process. Samples are also retained for the duration of the warranty period (ie several years) or longer, to ensure testing is possible in the event of subsequent disputes. No sample, no pay.

So how did these guys falsify records? Breaking into an independent laboratory's offices? Or are people permitted to build structures of that size without independent oversight of the quality and traceability of every delivery of building materials? :eek:

LOL welcome to America, land of "we will sacrifice anything for Ca$h"

re writing results, bribing testers... who knows.
Nice to know the people responsible for making sure skyscrapers don't collapse under their own weight, might have set aside their duty to the public in favour of kids' college tuition. :(

That's too complex for the US. All we care about is the bottom line. Quality hasn't mattered to us since the 50s.
it mattered in the 1950s?

it mattered in the 1950s?

That was the tail end of it. It was slowly waning through the 30s and 40s.

Someone's head (Several) is gonna roll over this. Typical Nor'easter screwup.

Nice to know the people responsible for making sure skyscrapers don't collapse under their own weight, might have set aside their duty to the public in favour of kids' college tuition. :(
one of the drawbacks to open market.

would you pay $100,000 for something that another person can do for $80,000?

Especially when one considers how much the BIG DIG already is costing.

the article I read is that everyone, from the Management at MTA to the construction workers are all being investigated for this.

would you pay $100,000 for something that another person can do for $80,000?
I just find it ironic that a few hundred miles away, people are imprisoned for attempting to achieve something of this sort for political gain, and here we have a group of people creating and accepting the possibility of the same outcome, for financial gain. But rather than hatred, they acted out of indifference.

I wonder if this is a parallel that will be pointed out at the trials.

I just find it ironic that a few hundred miles away, people are imprisoned for attempting to achieve something of this sort for political gain, and here we have a group of people creating and accepting the possibility of the same outcome, for financial gain. But rather than hatred, they acted out of indifference.

I wonder if this is a parallel that will be pointed out at the trials.
unfortunatly, that's up to the lawyers...


>.>

<.<

[off topic] hey, I haven't seen Cat-Tribe for a loooong time [/off topic]

Apparently part of the I90 tunnel in Boston collapsed, crushed a car and killed one of the occupants. Employees from the largest concrete supplier for the project have already been under investigation for some time, for falsifying records relating to the quality of the concrete supplied.

More at: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/12/bigdigdeath.ap/index.html

Now I first heard about the investigation earlier this summer, and wondered how anyone at the company was in a position to falsify quality management records in the first place. Here in the UK, the law states that for every batch of concrete (ie every truckload), the supplier has to submit several samples to the primary contractor / client at the time of the pour, which are immediately sent to an independent laboratory for strength testing at various stages in the curing process. Samples are also retained for the duration of the warranty period (ie several years) or longer, to ensure testing is possible in the event of subsequent disputes. No sample, no pay.

So how did these guys falsify records? Breaking into an independent laboratory's offices? Or are people permitted to build structures of that size without independent oversight of the quality and traceability of every delivery of building materials? :eek:

*taps foot, and waits for some collossal and preventable fuck-up in the UK takes the life of some poor innocent so I can start a thread with a childish OWNED theme. Looks at watch and wonders what is taking so long"

*taps foot, and waits for some collossal and preventable fuck-up in the UK takes the life of some poor innocent so I can start a thread with a childish OWNED theme. Looks at watch and wonders what is taking so long"
LOL... You know anything like that were to happen (the thread being created actually, not the event.) would be turned into a "But look at the Americans, they are much worse" rant. :p

You miss the point of this thread. This thread is about one specific safeguard in one specific industry.

Namely, independent concrete batch testing in capital infrastructure projects. Do you have it too? If so, has it been compromised, and how?

I apologise, but it does not get more interesting than that. The US / UK comparison is only valid in the area where this particular quality control mechanism is concerned.

We do for example get rail crashes as a result of poor maintenance on the railways, but you would be foolish to point at the next such example and declare Owned! because there is no valid comparison, and it goes well beyond the terms of reference of this particular debate. Apples, oranges, etc.

They work on it for 15 years, then it starts to fall apart less than a year after it ended. Great.

They work on it for 15 years, then it starts to fall apart less than a year after it ended. Great.
Look on the bright side, the warranty period on something like that will be a decade or more. In time, the government could probably own every company involved, and every company which wholly or partly bought any of the original contractors.

I lived in Boston for more than 25 years. The standard operational procedure (SOP) has always been giving the lowest bidder the "bid". Boston has always been touched with corruption. Where in the World can a Mayor be elected Mayor while he was in jail for voting fraud??? Mayor Curley in the 20's. (Just a note... rather ironic, his house was inherited by an order of nuns known for their object poverty.):)

Apparently part of the I90 tunnel in Boston collapsed, crushed a car and killed one of the occupants. Employees from the largest concrete supplier for the project have already been under investigation for some time, for falsifying records relating to the quality of the concrete supplied.

More at: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/12/bigdigdeath.ap/index.html

Now I first heard about the investigation earlier this summer, and wondered how anyone at the company was in a position to falsify quality management records in the first place. Here in the UK, the law states that for every batch of concrete (ie every truckload), the supplier has to submit several samples to the primary contractor / client at the time of the pour, which are immediately sent to an independent laboratory for strength testing at various stages in the curing process. Samples are also retained for the duration of the warranty period (ie several years) or longer, to ensure testing is possible in the event of subsequent disputes. No sample, no pay.

So how did these guys falsify records? Breaking into an independent laboratory's offices? Or are people permitted to build structures of that size without independent oversight of the quality and traceability of every delivery of building materials? :eek:
*yawns yesterdays news :rolleyes:

You miss the point of this thread. This thread is about one specific safeguard in one specific industry.

Namely, independent concrete batch testing in capital infrastructure projects. Do you have it too? If so, has it been compromised, and how?

I apologise, but it does not get more interesting than that. The US / UK comparison is only valid in the area where this particular quality control mechanism is concerned.

We do for example get rail crashes as a result of poor maintenance on the railways, but you would be foolish to point at the next such example and declare Owned! because there is no valid comparison, and it goes well beyond the terms of reference of this particular debate. Apples, oranges, etc.

Owned is Owned is Owned

It either is appropriate or it is not to a given situation.

As I have yet to give a situation it is not apples and oranges it is apples and nowt. Yet you still tell me that mine would be wrong. Hell it probably will be if it contains Owned in the title and people are dead. Still waiting for it to show up might be best just in case it meets the criteria youve just advised me of for prudent use of Owned.

Owned is Owned is Owned

It either is appropriate or it is not to a given situation.

As I have yet to give a situation it is not apples and oranges it is apples and nowt. Yet you still tell me that mine would be wrong. Hell it probably will be if it contains Owned in the title and people are dead. Still waiting for it to show up might be best just in case it meets the criteria youve just advised me of for prudent use of Owned.
Whatever? :confused:

*yawns yesterdays news :rolleyes:
I have actually been aware of the investigation for months, and this fatality was bannered Breaking News on CNN an hour ago. Blame them, not me.

Isn't there a building code somewheres desgined to stop this sort of mess? I don't mind going lowest-bid for everything, but ya know, quality control and stuff ought to be in there somewhere.

No ones gonna giva a fuck, the case will be settled out of court, and nothing will change. At least back in the day when there were colossol fuck ups, people bitched and shit got changed.

Isn't there a building code somewheres desgined to stop this sort of mess? I don't mind going lowest-bid for everything, but ya know, quality control and stuff ought to be in there somewhere.
All this stuff essentially costs the same - materials and such. Eventually the bids cross the default cost-profit line and for bids to get that low quality control goes out the window.

All this stuff essentially costs the same - materials and such. Eventually the bids cross the default cost-profit line and for bids to get that low quality control goes out the window.
The problem is, wherever in the world you do a multi-year project, the standard stuff does not get bought at the start. The bidder assures the employer that their materials will be up to standard, and aims to give a competitive yet realistic price.

The problem comes well after one bid wins and the contract is signed, when the project is well under way but experiencing over-runs. At that point, the temptation to cut corners grows. Without a secure system of ongoing testing, there is no way of telling whether or not the contractor has departed from the contract and is using substandard materials.

That's the reason for ongoing testing, because when you are spending a decade building something, by the halfway point the original bid may not be worth the paper on which it is printed.

Where in the World can a Mayor be elected Mayor while he was in jail for voting fraud??? Mayor Curley in the 20's. (Just a note... rather ironic, his house was inherited by an order of nuns known for their object poverty.):)

Make a mental note to check Chicago...