NationStates Jolt Archive

Does anyone agree that this should be banned? I'm a vegetarian but not 1 of those 1s that moan all the time although i do stick to my ground when questioned about it, but I think this really takes the p*ss when it comes to killing animals. It isn't so much that its any worse than fox hunting or Veil but thats its covered by political correctness and people being scared to say anything against muslims.

Also the ignorance to it. People tend to just think its actually a less cruel way of killing animals and it isn't, even I thought that till I found out that they slit there throat and wait for them to bleed to death, some are alive and suffering for minutes. But they do say a prayer for the animal. Oh thats nice of them.

It seems the only people who I can bring this up with are muslims. Everyone else takes the "moral high ground" and accuses me of being racist.

I don't think they should do it in this country and give up our princaples just for being "tolerant". If muslims want it, get it imported or go veggie.

This also applies to kosher meat which as far as I know is the same. The reason i emphasized halal meat is coz I know alot of muslims but not many jews and muslims are in the focus of the media just now.

anyway. What do you think?

It's a quick and painless way to go. To be a halal butcher you have to be trained in how to do it properly. It's a quick cut and the animal just fades away. Painless. Same goes for Kosher. Less so for fox hunting and 'veil', although I am puzzled by your opposition to cloth.
As for the 'giving up our princaples [sic]', what principles would you be talking about?

I've seen cows killed by according to halach methods (Judaism). The throat is slit.

The cow doesn't even seem to notice. It seemed a quieter death than having them stunned with a power hammer in the head, and then hung up alive on a meat hook and cut open alive with a power saw (which is the regular method in butchering cattle).

In both cases, halal and halachic methods (same word origin) are religious in nature, and cannot be banned in the US, unless you want to remove the freedom of religion.

veal*

And really, I don't think that traditional slaughterhouse killings are any better than that...

veal*

And really, I don't think that traditional slaughterhouse killings are any better than that...

Having your body slit from end to end with a power saw, and then having two guys pull all your insides out while you're only stunned doesn't seem too nice to me.

Looks to me like somebody just contracted a severe case of PWNED.

No it isn't. It can take minutes for them to die or lose conciousness.

Does anyone agree that this should be banned? I'm a vegetarian but not 1 of those 1s that moan all the time although i do stick to my ground when questioned about it, but I think this really takes the p*ss when it comes to killing animals. It isn't so much that its any worse than fox hunting or Veil but thats its covered by political correctness and people being scared to say anything against muslims.

Also the ignorance to it. People tend to just think its actually a less cruel way of killing animals and it isn't, even I thought that till I found out that they slit there throat and wait for them to bleed to death, some are alive and suffering for minutes. But they do say a prayer for the animal. Oh thats nice of them.

It seems the only people who I can bring this up with are muslims. Everyone else takes the "moral high ground" and accuses me of being racist.

I don't think they should do it in this country and give up our princaples just for being "tolerant". If muslims want it, get it imported or go veggie.

This also applies to kosher meat which as far as I know is the same. The reason i emphasized halal meat is coz I know alot of muslims but not many jews and muslims are in the focus of the media just now.

anyway. What do you think?

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/8/82/Grammartime.jpg/180px-Grammartime.jpg

No it isn't. It can take minutes for them to die or lose conciousness.

And you prefer the regular method of butchery? Where the cow is alive (and sometimes conscious) when it's cut open from end to end, and has its guts pulled out forcibly?

And you prefer the regular method of butchery? Where the cow is alive (and sometimes conscious) when it's cut open from end to end, and has its guts pulled out forcibly?

Without even a prayer. :)

Having your body slit from end to end with a power saw, and then having two guys pull all your insides out while you're only stunned doesn't seem too nice to me.
Indeed. Especially when they don't stun you effectively.

Does anyone agree that this should be banned? I'm a vegetarian but not 1 of those 1s that moan all the time although i do stick to my ground when questioned about it, but I think this really takes the p*ss when it comes to killing animals. It isn't so much that its any worse than fox hunting or Veil but thats its covered by political correctness and people being scared to say anything against muslims.

Also the ignorance to it. People tend to just think its actually a less cruel way of killing animals and it isn't, even I thought that till I found out that they slit there throat and wait for them to bleed to death, some are alive and suffering for minutes. But they do say a prayer for the animal. Oh thats nice of them.

It seems the only people who I can bring this up with are muslims. Everyone else takes the "moral high ground" and accuses me of being racist.

I don't think they should do it in this country and give up our princaples just for being "tolerant". If muslims want it, get it imported or go veggie.

This also applies to kosher meat which as far as I know is the same. The reason i emphasized halal meat is coz I know alot of muslims but not many jews and muslims are in the focus of the media just now.

anyway. What do you think?
I don't care if they rape the cow with a cricket bat and kill it by feeding it ass-first through a wood chipper if it tastes good.

You know Spdank your totally rıght. Any of us Muslıms should stop carıng ıf the meat ıs halal or not, because ın the end, kıllıng an anımal wıth some dıgnıty and gıvıng ıt respect ıs a total blasphemy to our prıncıpals! All anımals should be butchered en masse an treated as the mear peıces of meat they are. Besıdes, that hammer ıs humane enough.

...few thıngs pıss me off lıke good old ıgnorance...:headbang:

"They should get it imported"

What difference would that make? Just as many would die with that method but it would just be done out of the country. Do you believe its ok to slit animals throats as long as they're not american animals?

In both cases, halal and halachic methods (same word origin) are religious in nature, and cannot be banned in the US, unless you want to remove the freedom of religion.

Untrue - forbidding religious practices is considered perfectly acceptable if they violate established law. You are not allowed to sacrifice a virgin on an altar to your sungod for instance.
If that is a good thing or not can be debated. I personally have few objections if two adults wish to sacifice eachother without bothering me. Just leave those who cannot consent out of it.

I don't care if they rape the cow with a cricket bat and kill it by feeding it ass-first through a wood chipper if it tastes good.

As long as I don't have to pick the splinters out.

You know Spdank your totally rıght. Any of us Muslıms should stop carıng ıf the meat ıs halal or not, because ın the end, kıllıng an anımal wıth some dıgnıty and gıvıng ıt respect ıs a total blasphemy to our prıncıpals! All anımals should be butchered en masse an treated as the mear peıces of meat they are. Besıdes, that hammer ıs humane enough.

...few thıngs pıss me off lıke good old ıgnorance...

Who decapitated your i's?

And you prefer the regular method of butchery? Where the cow is alive (and sometimes conscious) when it's cut open from end to end, and has its guts pulled out forcibly?

In most European countries that method is in fact illegal. Of course, European animal rights movements and green parties are slightly bigger than in the USA.

Who decapitated your i's?

Lol, Im on vacatıon wıth my relatıves ın Istanbul. Unfortunately the keyboards are dıfferent too.

In most European countries that method is in fact illegal. Of course, European animal rights movements and green parties are slightly bigger than in the USA.

I say we need some serious restrictions on freedom of speech just to shut the fucktards up.


Lol, Im on vacatıon wıth my relatıves ın Istanbul. Unfortunately the keyboards are dıfferent too.

That's so weird... It's like a valuable part of the world is missing... Your posts are creepy to look at! MAKE IT STOP!

In most European countries that method is in fact illegal. Of course, European animal rights movements and green parties are slightly bigger than in the USA.

Here in the US, PETA is regarded as a supporter of terrorist organizations, and an organization full of loonies.

I say you need some serious restrictions on freedom of speech just to shut the fucktards up.



That's so weird... It's like a valuable part of the world is missing... Your posts are creepy to look at! MAKE IT STOP!

That actually remınds me of a thread here I read about a mouse farm/thıng ın Ireland/Scotland that gave mıce to labs to do all sorts of test n stuff. Anywho after 10 yrs of tryıng to get them to close, fuckıng anımal rıghts actıvısts dug up the body of the famılıes grandfather/father (guy who started the factory Im thınk) and held ıt for ransom untıl they closed the plant down. For the sake of not hyjackıng thıs thread I aınt gonna say what I thınk about extreme AR actıvısts.

UTA, lol Im sorry! I can just hıt 'i' but that would mean havıng to reach accross the keyboard, somethıng Im too lazy to do :p

I don't know about the US, but in Aussie slaughterhouses the animal is well and truly dead before it starts getting cut up. First, the powerhammer may kill the animal right off; at the very least, at the settings they use, it won't feel anything. Then the powersaw slices through at least half the neck, ensuring full severance of the carotids and jugulars. Then the animal is sent through to the butchery, and takes a minimum of two minutes to get there.

Halal or not, the death is quick and painless.

Oh, god, that makes it infinitely worse. O_O

Well, we could make an overcoat of explosives for each cow, and blow it up, thereby instantly killing the animal and simultaneously turning it into sausage meat in the same millisecond.

Wouldnt shootıng the damn thıng ın the head be quıck n paınless too?

As for exploding cows, I read this somewhere (won't post the link because the rest of the page may violate the TOS).

After the performance, it really is possible that impressionable kids will want to detonate their own cows. Good. Encourage them. If every kid in the world exploded a cow, we'd be so busy cheering we wouldn't have time to starve or start wars. I know we don't have the budget for something like that, but we could at least take all the bullshit National Endowment for the Arts money away from the women painting with their maxi pads and give it to traveling theatre groups for explosives and beef.

You should assume that everyone against something this cool has problems, but one 13 year old girl went out of her way to prove it. Patrizia Strunz went in front of a Berlin court to say that seeing the burger grenade could "trigger spiritual shock." The court, like me, probably didn't know what the hell that meant, and they told her that she didn't have to watch it if she thought it would prove there was no God, or do whatever a spiritual shock does to you. And their verdict of "quit looking at stuff that bothers you" is a pretty progressive outlook to come from the same country that brought us genocide and tried to kill Indiana Jones.

Also the ignorance to it. People tend to just think its actually a less cruel way of killing animals and it isn't, even I thought that till I found out that they slit there throat and wait for them to bleed to death, some are alive and suffering for minutes. But they do say a prayer for the animal. Oh thats nice of them.

Well yeah some take a few minutes to die... a lot die instantly. It is a replication of how a goat or cow or whatever would die in the wild at the hands (paws!) of a lion or other big predator. And guess what? Us humans are a big predator too. Personally if I had a choice to die I would rather have my throat slit than get ripped to shreads by wolves after a long, tiresome chase. There is only so far you can go with the oh you can't kill the animal this way but that way is fine... because at the end of the day the animal dies just like everything else.

That last part ıs so funny... n so wrong...

I don't know about the US, but in Aussie slaughterhouses the animal is well and truly dead before it starts getting cut up. First, the powerhammer may kill the animal right off; at the very least, at the settings they use, it won't feel anything. Then the powersaw slices through at least half the neck, ensuring full severance of the carotids and jugulars. Then the animal is sent through to the butchery, and takes a minimum of two minutes to get there.

Halal or not, the death is quick and painless.

Can't deny that Halal is a lot more elegant.

Can't deny that Halal is a lot more elegant.

Elegant, shmelegant, long as i get my beef.

News flash, most meat is killed this way, the throat is usually cut. Theres nothing wrong with Halal, kosher, or normal meat.

I'm not gunna get into the food chain, vegetarianism argument here coz its too long and frustrating.


You know Spdank your totally rıght. Any of us Muslıms should stop carıng ıf the meat ıs halal or not, because ın the end, kıllıng an anımal wıth some dıgnıty and gıvıng ıt respect ıs a total blasphemy to our prıncıpals! All anımals should be butchered en masse an treated as the mear peıces of meat they are. Besıdes, that hammer ıs humane enough.

...few thıngs pıss me off lıke good old ıgnorance...:headbang:


I know its part of you religion. Thats my point. At least with slaughterhouses over here are run in such a way to minimise suffering by stunning and making it as painless as possible. Its not perfect at all but at least thats what the guidelines are put in for and the priority is the animals wellbeing. Muslims have a religious belief that animals must be killed a certain way and think that gives them the right to do it. You put your religious beliefs above the animals wellbeing. Its a way outdated method and theres no need for animals to die that way. I see your point about them not being slaughtered as numbers and noone caring about them but is slitting there throat an waiting while they bleed really the best way to do it? Why not pray for them then kill them quickly?

Halal meat is really not thatt much of a religious concern. Quaran states that you should kill animals witht he method that inflicts them least pain and stress. So you should feed them the right way, close their eyes before slitting their throats; and by the way any cow that can hold onto its conscious after its throat slit all the way should be given the title of "Supercow" .It is not possible; I'm a biologist and I'm quite confident about it.,So, Halal meat is just another way of saying that butchery is a profession and it should be performed by people who know how to do it; I could not see anything wrong with it. You should not be self-righteous about things that you don't fully grasp; it has got nothing to do with political correctness. you are just trying very hard to be politically incorrect but I do not now why. If you want to bash muslim practices as a muslim I can give you few hints; if you need them. Lastly I'm sick of the "cruelity" notion that only applies to thing that can scream. If you do not want to eat animals that's fine; but just don't try to justify it; because plants are as alive as animals.

World to vegetarian nutcase:

It's painless. The blades are very sharp, and the cut very accurate and effective.

Does anyone agree that this should be banned? I'm a vegetarian but not 1 of those 1s that moan all the time although i do stick to my ground when questioned about it, but I think this really takes the p*ss when it comes to killing animals. It isn't so much that its any worse than fox hunting or Veil but thats its covered by political correctness and people being scared to say anything against muslims.

Also the ignorance to it. People tend to just think its actually a less cruel way of killing animals and it isn't, even I thought that till I found out that they slit there throat and wait for them to bleed to death, some are alive and suffering for minutes. But they do say a prayer for the animal. Oh thats nice of them.

It seems the only people who I can bring this up with are muslims. Everyone else takes the "moral high ground" and accuses me of being racist.

I don't think they should do it in this country and give up our princaples just for being "tolerant". If muslims want it, get it imported or go veggie.

This also applies to kosher meat which as far as I know is the same. The reason i emphasized halal meat is coz I know alot of muslims but not many jews and muslims are in the focus of the media just now.

anyway. What do you think?


It's the required way for two major religions to kill their animals so that they can actually eat the meat. Also, bleeding to death is supposed not to be painful... the animal just stands there and gets sleepier until it dies.

Certainly no more brutal than a sledgehammer to the skull.

World to vegetarian nutcase:

It's painless. The blades are very sharp, and the cut very accurate and effective.
I demand some one link Maddox's article on vegetarians.

I demand some one link Maddox's article on vegetarians.

Clicky (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sponsor)

Do you mean this one?

I'm not gunna get into the food chain, vegetarianism argument here coz its too long and frustrating.





I know its part of you religion. Thats my point. At least with slaughterhouses over here are run in such a way to minimise suffering by stunning and making it as painless as possible. Its not perfect at all but at least thats what the guidelines are put in for and the priority is the animals wellbeing. Muslims have a religious belief that animals must be killed a certain way and think that gives them the right to do it. You put your religious beliefs above the animals wellbeing. Its a way outdated method and theres no need for animals to die that way. I see your point about them not being slaughtered as numbers and noone caring about them but is slitting there throat an waiting while they bleed really the best way to do it? Why not pray for them then kill them quickly?

Ok for one, lıke just about every1 here, I rarely eat halal meat. Most of the tıme ıts what I get from an average supermarket. Personally, n I dont know about you, but serıously... would you rather have a fuckıng hammer bash your head to knock u out (n sometımes ıf u got a thınk head ull be partıally conscıence) then be hung on hooks from you back, have your throat to you ass opened up wıth a power saw wıth a bunch of workers rıppıng out ur ınsıdes? Or would you rather have your throat slıt and dıe ın peıce wıth some respect and dıgnıty.

Oh and by the way, unless the guy wıth the knıfe ıs a moron, slıttıng the throat ıs a very, very quıck death, Thınk about the mechanıcs ıf you dont beleıve me. If you dont dıe ımmedıetly but ın mınutes as you've saıd, ımagıne slowly losıng your fıeld of vısıon as everythıng slowly blacks out. Your thoughts get slower and you feel numb. Then you pass out. The reason for thıs ıs because not enough blood ıs reachıng the braın. Somewhat sımılar to carbon monoxıde poısonıng. And ıf ıts done rıght, a severe ınterruptıon to the braıns blood supply wıll cause ıt to black out ımmedıetly wıth death rıght around the corner. The whole scıence of slıttıng the throat ıs starvıng the braın, whıch ıs one of the most effıcıent ways to kıll.

I cant beleıve I turned that rant ınto a bıology lesson.. oh well as long as someone wakes up to smell whats cookın. ;)

I suppose being thrown into an electrified pool or being shock-prodded before having one or two boltgun hits to the head, with no prayer said, is a more humane way of killing an animal. :rolleyes:

Knife, bolts or electricity, it makes no difference how you slaughter the damn things. Killing hurts. But it is what we do.

I'm often amazed that people think it's possible to be cruel to food. FOOD!

I buy it neatly wrapped in plastic on a styrofoam tray with a little label on it. I could care less how it was slaughtered when I slather it with tobasco and A1.

Your arguing that an animal would rather die in a dignified way than die in a painless way. Animals are different to humans. They go by instinct. they dont sit there thinking about whats more dignified. There not caught up in pride and ego. Maybe I would prefer to die in a more dignified way but I'm human.

The biologist who was speaking earlier, I'm not trying to be self righteous. This has nothing to do with me as I wouldn't eat meat anyway. I also am not deliberately trying to be politically incorrect. I just think this is something that political correctness has covered and because of this alot of people don't know what happened to animals in halal butchery. I'm not condemming all muslims. I'm also a scientist, you can't use that card and it doesn't mean that you automatically know that animals do not suffer unless you've wrote an article on it.

You can't deny stunning an animal will decrease the suffering. Shouldn't that be the priority over any religious beliefs.

I'm not trying to bash muslim beliefs in general but you cant expect me to beleive all of them. I dont believe all christian or athiest beliefs.

I'm often amazed that people think it's possible to be cruel to food. FOOD!

I buy it neatly wrapped in plastic on a styrofoam tray with a little label on it. I could care less how it was slaughtered when I slather it with tobasco and A1.

Consider what the beef will turn into after a few hours, and where what's left of the beef will go.

Horror!

You can't deny stunning an animal will decrease the suffering. Shouldn't that be the priority over any religious beliefs.

*shrug* You're not Muslim and you don't eat meat.

Don't tell other people what to do. It's not your place.

Consider what the beef will turn into after a few hours, and where what's left of the beef will go.

It'll be poop in the toilet. :D

Everybody poops!

Yep thats exactly rıght Spdank, ıgnore the entıre body of my argument and focus only on what supports yours. Learn to read next tıme, Im startıng to have enough of thıs poıntless drıvel.

ok I ignored the second part of your argument. Not on purpose but I forgot and was also arguing the biologists point.

You reckon getting your throat slit would be quite painless becuase of carbon monoxide, black outs and so on. Maybe. It still is gunna be alot more painful than if they were stunned first. Bleeding to death is gunna be painful, blackouts or not. They don't pass out from it right away. How can you deny it isn't painful. Sometimes in UK slaughterhouses the stunning doesn't work, fair enough but at least an effort is made to try and make sure there not suffering even longer. I don't agree with them neither by the way I just think halal meat is a more painful way of killing an animal. The people are trained to do it quickly but it doesn't always happen.

By the way you also ignored my whole argument and just went on to complain that i ingored yours.

For starters, CO has nothıng to do wıth slıttıng some1s throat, the effects of CO poısonıng are mearly sımılar to bleedıng to death. And tell me how you know that bleedıng to death vıa havıng your throught slıt ıs paınful? How long does ıt take to have your throat cut? less then a second? 2 tops? If you are a scıentıst and your fıeld ıs relevant to thıs ıssue, please enlıghten me as to how a braın losıng power to even keep conscıencenous ıs goıng to have the resources to regıster paın?

PS: Can you tell me what part of your argument I skıpped?
(I'll respond tommorrow, ıt's 12:26 Istanbul tıme)

Here in the US, PETA is regarded as a supporter of terrorist organizations, and an organization full of loonies.

For once I agree. PETA is unabashedly a group of media attention whores who manage to convince celebrities that they're the Humane Society when they couldn't give a shit what happens to the animal and push for the insane theory of "Animal Liberation," where society should have nothing to do with animals in any shape or form whatsoever, including sustenance or assistance.

The fact that some celebrities continue to support PETA even when it turns out they'd rather gas pets with carbon monoxide and keep their corpses in a freezer to keep for some future bullshit propaganda because it's cheaper than actually caring and finding new homes for them just shows how some people are too fucking clueless for their own good.

And when they pay common criminals like Rodney Coronado, they're playing the same game Al Qaeda does.

Bitches, all of them.

You missed my argument about humans and animals being different and animals not caring about ego. I'm guessing we've passed that and now we're on the science of whether getting your throat slit owuld be painful.

I know you wouldn't die of CO poisoning but lack of oxygen which is a similar experience.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/06/11/nmeat11.xml

Thats from the telegraph and it says it can take up to 2 minutes for a cow to lose conciousness, where as shep and goats about 7 seconds. I also so some reports saying what you said.

"Already 80 to 90 per cent of Halal meat is stunned electrically, which is acceptable to most Muslims provided the heart is still beating at the moment the throat is slit."

I didn't know this. I suppose its a definite breakthrough on an outdated method. This also hints that even the butchers, mosques or companies, whatever them selves had doubts about the original method.

I don't like to argue unfairly (purposely missing the point etc.) and it winds me up when its done especially on message boards, hope you don't think i'm doing it. I also saw some articles basically saying what you were saying, all were by muslim or jewish scientists haha.

Basically my point is, maybe putting it forward in a less extreme way, that halal and kosher butchery are putting the animal at more risk to prolonged suffering than if the animal were stunned or killed first. My other point is that respect and dignity doesn't mean a fraction if anything to animals or there "bereaving" family than it does to humans, so it can't be compared to humans in a "what would you rather?" sense.

Your point is that halal meat isn't much of a risk and when it is it worth it for the sake of the animals soul or eternity, or whatever it is the prayer's for.

We're gunna end up agreeing to disagree anyway, hope this does it sooner, enjoy your holiday.

cricket bat raping, death via woodchipper, poop jokes, and muslim-bashing.
This thread is without doubt the best thread i have had the pleasure of reading this stuff should be put in the archives

Looks to me like somebody just contracted a severe case of PWNED.

:D your argument has been terrrrrrrrrminated


cows:mp5:

Does anyone agree that this should be banned? I'm a vegetarian but not 1 of those 1s that moan all the time although i do stick to my ground when questioned about it, but I think this really takes the p*ss when it comes to killing animals. It isn't so much that its any worse than fox hunting or Veil but thats its covered by political correctness and people being scared to say anything against muslims.

Also the ignorance to it. People tend to just think its actually a less cruel way of killing animals and it isn't, even I thought that till I found out that they slit there throat and wait for them to bleed to death, some are alive and suffering for minutes. But they do say a prayer for the animal. Oh thats nice of them.

It seems the only people who I can bring this up with are muslims. Everyone else takes the "moral high ground" and accuses me of being racist.

I don't think they should do it in this country and give up our princaples just for being "tolerant". If muslims want it, get it imported or go veggie.

This also applies to kosher meat which as far as I know is the same. The reason i emphasized halal meat is coz I know alot of muslims but not many jews and muslims are in the focus of the media just now.

anyway. What do you think?

I'm given to understand that people with Halal dietary restrictions are able to eat Kosher food. Should we ban that too, since it's got all the same cruelty measures that halal butchery does?

He already mentioned Kosher.
Linky to Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashrut#Kashrut_and_animal_welfare)
Thought that might add to the debate somewhat.

Would you rather unkosher/unhalal electrocutions? And jeez, lions and crap bite antelope neck so that probably hurts more :P

*shrug* You're not Muslim and you don't eat meat.

Don't tell other people what to do. It's not your place.
Well I'm afraid that the nature of modern society means that people will always be told what to do. People aren't allowed to torture animals. I know that halal slaughter isn't as cruel as wanton torture but the principle is the same, that the government is telling people what to do by demanding they treat animals a certain way.

Well I'm afraid that the nature of modern society means that people will always be told what to do. People aren't allowed to torture animals. I know that halal slaughter isn't as cruel as wanton torture but the principle is the same, that the government is telling people what to do by demanding they treat animals a certain way.

How are religious guidelines on how to kill an animal the same in principle as the government telling people what to do?

How are religious guidelines on how to kill an animal the same in principle as the government telling people what to do?
Looking back at what he said, it seems I misinterpreted. My mistake.

"I am here on behalf of the Society for Prevention of Cruel and Unusual Death Penalties for Beef..."

I suppose we could hunt them down with bows and arrows. That would definitely be more fun than cow tipping.

They could have Jeffrey Dhamer kill all the cows personally as long as it is still edible. When the cows rise up and become the dominant species, then we'll deal with them.

I don't care if they rape the cow with a cricket bat and kill it by feeding it ass-first through a wood chipper if it tastes good.
Agreed. Besides which, I think that cows are generally killed with an electrified spike through the neck.

:D your argument has been terrrrrrrrrminated
cows:mp5:
Your choice of spelling made me think of Daleks. EXTERMINATE!

*shrugs*

We're killing the animal. Does it matter how we kill it? In the end, it's stilll gonna be inside my stomach anyway. Not like it's gonna care, no?

I'm often amazed that people think it's possible to be cruel to food. FOOD!Oh it's possible. Putting an applepie in the blender with tomato juice is excessively cruel. I mean, just blending the applepiue is bad enough, but the tomato absolutely ruins it.

And you prefer the regular method of butchery? Where the cow is alive (and sometimes conscious) when it's cut open from end to end, and has its guts pulled out forcibly?


*sigh* Nope that does not happen, a massive electrical charge is sent through the head to stun them, then they are hung upsidedown and their throat cut, once they have been bled, then they are butcherd.

Your arguing that an animal would rather die in a dignified way than die in a painless way.
No, we're arguing that slitting the throat IS a painless way. Far more painless than being eviscerated alive.
Animals are different to humans. They go by instinct. they dont sit there thinking about whats more dignified. There not caught up in pride and ego. Maybe I would prefer to die in a more dignified way but I'm human.
???

The biologist who was speaking earlier, I'm not trying to be self righteous. This has nothing to do with me as I wouldn't eat meat anyway. I also am not deliberately trying to be politically incorrect. I just think this is something that political correctness has covered and because of this alot of people don't know what happened to animals in halal butchery. I'm not condemming all muslims. I'm also a scientist, you can't use that card and it doesn't mean that you automatically know that animals do not suffer unless you've wrote an article on it.
Bleeding to death is not painful.

You can't deny stunning an animal will decrease the suffering.
You feel that hitting something over the head with a sledgehammer is less painful than bleeding painlessly?
Shouldn't that be the priority over any religious beliefs. The priority of the religious belief IS the painless death of the animal.

I'm not trying to bash muslim beliefs in general but you cant expect me to beleive all of them. I dont believe all christian or athiest beliefs.
Nobody here is asking you to believe Muslim beliefs. It just seems that you want to bash this religious requirement with a "proof" of its wrongness that has been disproved repeatedly.

"???"

Quite simple, Animals don't care if you pray for them or kill them in waht you consider a painless death

"Bleeding to death is not painful."

Yes it is. How can you say it isn't? If the animal can be concious for 2 minutes and the pain will fade yeah but not instantly.

"You feel that hitting something over the head with a sledgehammer is less painful than bleeding painlessly?
The priority of the religious belief IS the painless death of the animal".

Yeah I'm sure thats what the priority was when the method was invented years ago, but now that there's newer methods of relieving the pain why not use them?

"Nobody here is asking you to believe Muslim beliefs. It just seems that you want to bash this religious requirement with a "proof" of its wrongness that has been disproved repeatedly"

Proof of is rightness has also been disproved repeatedly. Right and wrong aren't that simple. As i said in my last post, why risk the animal suffering when you can stun them?

It seemed a quieter death than having them stunned with a power hammer in the head, and then hung up alive on a meat hook and cut open alive with a power saw (which is the regular method in butchering cattle).

Yep. If i had a choice, slit my throat please.

Halal doesn't specifically refer to the type of slaughter used. The method used is zabiha, a discipline within halal food preparation. The Qur'an doesn't specifically state that the animal has to be killed in the throat-slitting manner alone. Potentially, anaesthesia or some other form of stunning that does not rupture blood vessels might be permissable.

The main point of halal slaughter (other than providing a painless death for the animal and giving thanks for its life) is to ensure that there is no blood in the meat to be consumed, which in Islamic terms is haraam (no good). So electrical shock-prodding or anything like that would rupture vessels and allow blood to get into the meat.

So before you go and slam halal as some sort of big barbaric and bannable practise, think about the fact that there is debate amongst Islamic jurists about what the most humane method is.

Having seen first hand some of the ways cows are killed IRL, there's no way I would even imply Halal is cruel. Also, I'm not Muslim, but I try and only eat Halal, because its the only way I can ensure that my meat was not procured cruelly. And if a certain Muslim girlfriend has their way, I'll be eating Halal all the time.

Having seen first hand some of the ways cows are killed IRL, there's no way I would even imply Halal is cruel. Also, I'm not Muslim, but I try and only eat Halal, because its the only way I can ensure that my meat was not procured cruelly. And if a certain Muslim girlfriend has their way, I'll be eating Halal all the time.

at least she isn't a vegatarian

In theory halal meat is painless as it cuts three important veins. But when it doesn't go totally right especially cattle can end up concsious for up to 2 minutes. I'm not complaining about the fact that it looks violent. I know the convulsing and stuff the animal does does not necesseraly mean its in pain and I'm not complaining about the mess it makes when it does go right.

Why not just stun them before so that if does go wrong they won't be conscious and feeling pain for that 2 minutes?

Apparently more and more halal butchers are doing that now so they must have had some doubts about the original method.

Why not just stun them before so that if does go wrong they won't be conscious and feeling pain for that 2 minutes?

Apparently more and more halal butchers are doing that now so they must have had some doubts about the original method.
Doubts don't come into it, it's more of a legal requirement in many places.

Doubts don't come into it, it's more of a legal requirement in many places.

No legal requirement in Britain though. Unless theres regional requirements.

No legal requirement in Britain though. Unless theres regional requirements.
Could be a PR thing, pre-empting criticism with electric shock weapons is cheap. That does not necessarily mean the stun guns have much of an effect, nor does it say anything about 'doubts' on the part of the slaughtermen.

Could be a PR thing, pre-empting criticism with electric shock weapons is cheap. That does not necessarily mean the stun guns have much of an effect, nor does it say anything about 'doubts' on the part of the slaughtermen.

If they were so sure about that way of killing they would stick up for it and not give into PR. If "stunned" meat can still be considered halal then someone high up in the muslim community who's now letting the original method get taken over must think its a better method or at least equal. To say the original halal method is actually less cruel which some people have said here is rediculous. The stun guns do work in stunning animals and preventing them from feeling pain.

If they were so sure about that way of killing they would stick up for it and not give into PR.
No.

You give in to PR if it suits you. Principles do not come into it. A lot of industry for example passionately does not give a damn about overseas working conditions, the environment, etc, but they make concessions anyway, even if those concessions are meaningless and have no effect whatsoever.

No.

You give in to PR if it suits you. Principles do not come into it. A lot of industry for example passionately does not give a damn about overseas working conditions, the environment, etc, but they make concessions anyway, even if those concessions are meaningless and have no effect whatsoever.

Whats that got to do with it? my point is the Muslim community would be a bit more stubborn about changing there own guidelines if they didn't believe in it. i think if they felt it was wrong we would hear about it.