NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you feel Islamic terrorist/terrorism is more politically driven in that they do what they do in response to things like occupation in Palestine, Kashmir, and Checnya(sp?) etc. Or is it really just driven out of the Islamic fundies trying to setup an Islamic empire based on Shria law and islamic princples and see the west a barrier to that. whats your take on it and either way are their actions justified?

I feel the same way about Islamic Terrorism (Al Qaeda) as I do about Christian Terrorism (KKK). They're all nuts trying to get their ideas acknowledged above all others, and are willing to do anything for that to happen. The KKK's influence has gone down considerably from what it was back in the early/mid 1900s, eventually the Islamic Terrorism will die down too.

I feel the same way about Islamic Terrorism (Al Qaeda) as I do about Christian Terrorism (KKK). They're all nuts trying to get their ideas acknowledged above all others, and are willing to do anything for that to happen. The KKK's influence has gone down considerably from what it was back in the early/mid 1900s, eventually the Islamic Terrorism will die down too.

The KKK is in no way "Christian" terrorism. It's more related to Nazism than it is to christianity.

Islamic extremists should have their leaders hung, their followers tased, and their dogs shot. In no particular order.

The KKK is in no way "Christian" terrorism. It's more related to Nazism than it is to christianity.

Islamic extremists should have their leaders hung, their followers tased, and their dogs shot. In no particular order.
The same should go for christian extremists.

Personally I think it is motivated out of their desire to have Islam rule and see things such as western support of moderate governments in the middle east as something stopping them from reaching their extremist goals so they bomb and murder. To me this is unacceptable and those people should be destroyed.

I'm going to have to disagree. The terrorists are a minority, who act as a result of Western Oppression. There is no desire in the muslim world to spread Islam. The fact is many muslims are moderate, and just like everyone want to live their life to the fullest.
I was born and raised in a muslim country, Jordan, I am in fact Christian, just like many in the Middle east, and I can see things from a different prespective, I do have ill feelings towards the Israeli occupation (considering the fact i'm of palestinian origin), and I dont agree with US foreign policy, like many in the middle east, and in the world.
The terrorists are simply a minority who have waged a war against oppression, in the name of Islam. This is simply a cover, and many in the middle east disagree with their actions.

The KKK is in no way "Christian" terrorism. It's more related to Nazism than it is to christianity.

Islamic extremists should have their leaders hung, their followers tased, and their dogs shot. In no particular order.

One of Hitler's big things was the iron cross if I remember correctly ;)

Do you feel Islamic terrorist/terrorism is more politically driven in that they do what they do in response to things like occupation in Palestine, Kashmir, and Checnya(sp?) etc. Or is it really just driven out of the Islamic fundies trying to setup an Islamic empire based on Shria law and islamic princples and see the west a barrier to that. whats your take on it and either way are their actions justified?

Islam is not just a religion it's a political order as well. With law and punishment.

Personally I think it is motivated out of their desire to have Islam rule and see things such as western support of moderate governments in the middle east as something stopping them from reaching their extremist goals so they bomb and murder. To me this is unacceptable and those people should be destroyed.
It's not just the terrorists. It's the deafening silence of the vast muslim majority. Unless you make cartoons about Mohammed. Then suddenly they find their voices.

The same should go for christian extremists.

Fred Phelps is probably the only one around that I know of...go look up his compound on google and hi-five it with some FAE goodness, then start with those mormon compounds up in Utah and Texas.

Hang them all!

Fred Phelps is probably the only one around that I know of...go look up his compound on google and hi-five it with some FAE goodness, then start with those mormon compounds up in Utah and Texas.

A high-five...

OF SEMTEX!

I'm going to have to disagree. The terrorists are a minority, who act as a result of Western Oppression. There is no desire in the muslim world to spread Islam. The fact is many muslims are moderate, and just like everyone want to live their life to the fullest.
I was born and raised in a muslim country, Jordan, I am in fact Christian, just like many in the Middle east, and I can see things from a different prespective, I do have ill feelings towards the Israeli occupation (considering the fact i'm of palestinian origin), and I dont agree with US foreign policy, like many in the middle east, and in the world.
The terrorists are simply a minority who have waged a war against oppression, in the name of Islam. This is simply a cover, and many in the middle east disagree with their actions.

Oppression...hahahaha.

Yep, the World trade center victims were OPPRESSING them! oh the poor babies! We didn't bend over and accept their wicked way of life! *Ahem* Cough Cough Kosovo*

The terrorists wage ware against us because..

A) We're supporting the underdog, Israel, and we help them when we can
B) We're America, predominantly christian w/ christian heritage...
C) We've invaded several countries lately that are muslim, and this incenses them to no end. "Oh our poor 99999999 times removed brethren of dirkastanish descent are being defiled by US military personel on their soil!
D) We prefer the AR-15, as opposed to the AK, which makes us instant infidels
E) We aren't muslim, for the most part
F) We don't force sharia upon people, or any religion for that matter
G) We can end their miserable lives whenever we, at our own leisure, desire too
H) We're the big kid on the block, they want their islamist way of life to conquer the globe, and we are directly in it's way.

I could go on...but you get the idea. American way of life does not compute with Islamist/sharia way of life

Oh, and we are just a bunch of oversexed drunk, stoned cowboys.

The terrorists are a minority, who act as a result of Western Oppression.
--snip--
The terrorists are simply a minority who have waged a war against oppression, in the name of Islam. This is simply a cover, and many in the middle east disagree with their actions.

Assuming that is true, then I have a question for you.

Why do these terrorists not attack the members of the House of Saud, or the various rulers of other middle eastern countries? The very people who are truly oppressing the people of those nations? Why do so many of these "fighters against oppression" claim to want a rule of law that is extremely oppressive in nature?

Tell me, in what way were the people who died in the World Trade Center attacks, or the subway bombings in England, oppressing anyone? How were the innocent civilians targeted by these "fighters against oppression" in the bombings of the embassies in Kenya or the hotels in Bali, not to mention all the people who have been killed by insurgents in Iraq, oppressing anyone? How is murdering people for watching the god-damned World Cup, fighting against oppression?

I ask because I am curious.

:eek: I agree with you for once! That KKK analogy was something Josh said in an episode of the West Wing ("Isaac and Ishmael" I think.) Thought-provoking at best.

Their dogs? :rolleyes:

It's an American police joke-whenever their is a dog and the police are involved the dog stands a 50% chance of getting shot, or tased, or even both.

google it.

One of Hitler's big things was the iron cross if I remember correctly ;)

"one can either be a german, or a christian, not both"
-heeetler

Hmmm...

Assuming that is true, then I have a question for you.

Why do these terrorists not attack the members of the House of Saud, or the various rulers of other middle eastern countries? The very people who are truly oppressing the people of those nations? Why do so many of these "fighters against oppression" claim to want a rule of law that is extremely oppressive in nature?

Tell me, in what way were the people who died in the World Trade Center attacks, or the subway bombings in England, oppressing anyone? How were the innocent civilians targeted by these "fighters against oppression" in the bombings of the embassies in Kenya or the hotels in Bali, not to mention all the people who have been killed by insurgents in Iraq, oppressing anyone? How is murdering people for watching the god-damned World Cup, fighting against oppression?

I ask because I am curious.

He's attempting to justify terrorism. Badly, I might add.

There is no justification for terrorism....

One of Hitler's big things was the iron cross if I remember correctly ;)
Der Eiserne Kreuz has been one of the primary symbols of Germany throughout history. Much as he adopted various songs and uniforms from the previous German governments, he also adopted the Eiserne Kreuz.

Oppression...hahahaha.

Yep, the World trade center victims were OPPRESSING them! oh the poor babies! We didn't bend over and accept their wicked way of life! *Ahem* Cough Cough Kosovo*

The terrorists wage ware against us because..

A) We're supporting the underdog, Israel, and we help them when we can
B) We're America, predominantly christian w/ christian heritage...
C) We've invaded several countries lately that are muslim, and this incenses them to no end. "Oh our poor 99999999 times removed brethren of dirkastanish descent are being defiled by US military personel on their soil!
D) We prefer the AR-15, as opposed to the AK, which makes us instant infidels
E) We aren't muslim, for the most part
F) We don't force sharia upon people, or any religion for that matter
G) We can end their miserable lives whenever we, at our own leisure, desire too
H) We're the big kid on the block, they want their islamist way of life to conquer the globe, and we are directly in it's way.

I could go on...but you get the idea. American way of life does not compute with Islamist/sharia way of life

Oh, and we are just a bunch of oversexed drunk, stoned cowboys.

Cant i make it clear to you. The terrorist are a minority. They do not represent a majority of Muslims. Muslims disgaree with their actions.
The terrorist aren't true muslims, their war against the West is merely political.
The terrorist don't want to spread Sharia, they are simply idiots who want to make a political point, who use islam as a cover.

You have no idea wat ur talkin about, next time u try to be smart, think twice.

Yep, the World trade center victims were OPPRESSING them!
How about the thousands of innocent civilians killed by the USA and their allies, did they ever do anything to the USA.

Der Eiserne Kreuz has been one of the primary symbols of Germany throughout history. Much as he adopted various songs and uniforms from the previous German governments, he also adopted the Eiserne Kreuz.

Wasn't the Iron Cross an award of some sort for German soldiers during WWI?



He's attempting to justify terrorism. Badly, I might add.

There is no justification for terrorism....

I thought the same, which is why I would love to see Asadia's response to my questions.

Assuming that is true, then I have a question for you.

Why do these terrorists not attack the members of the House of Saud, or the various rulers of other middle eastern countries? The very people who are truly oppressing the people of those nations? Why do so many of these "fighters against oppression" claim to want a rule of law that is extremely oppressive in nature?

Tell me, in what way were the people who died in the World Trade Center attacks, or the subway bombings in England, oppressing anyone? How were the innocent civilians targeted by these "fighters against oppression" in the bombings of the embassies in Kenya or the hotels in Bali, not to mention all the people who have been killed by insurgents in Iraq, oppressing anyone? How is murdering people for watching the god-damned World Cup, fighting against oppression?

I ask because I am curious.

The terrorist attack the nations whom have been oppressing their people, often in directly. The USA and England were responsible for many wars in the middle east, and the creation of Israel.
The terrorist attack the homelands of these nations, attacks on civilians are unjustified, but they don't see it that way, because quite likely someone they know has been indirectly effected by US foreign policy. Many of these poeple look at how thousands of their own civilians have been killed by the US, and hance act on that instinct.

My main point is that the terrorist are a minority, and they in no way reflect the rest of the muslim population, people in this forum make it seem as if all muslims are terrorists.

My main point is that the terrorist are a minority, and they in no way reflect the rest of the muslim population, people in this forum make it seem as if all muslims are terrorists.

It doesn't matter if they're a minority, it's still wrong, you still can't justify it, and quite frankly, your "opperssion" argument falls flat on it's face.

I would just like to remind all of you that there is no such thing as "Muslim Terrorism." There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, and most are appalled by terrorism. The terrorists in question (such as Osama BinLaden and the late Abu Musab Al Zarquawi) claimed that they are fighting in the name of Islam, but, in fact, they are doing the reverse. No real Muslim would ever advocate violence or rascism, etc. Just like any other major religion, Islam advocates peace. I think it's disgusting when people discriminate against Muslims, because they think they are terrorists. Incidentally, there are Christian terrorists too. Ever heard of E.L.F. or K.K.K. or even, for that matter, things like the Holocaust and the Spanish Inquisition? (which were both committed by Christians) Honestly...

Additionally, I've heard people say that Muslims worship a violent and barbaric G-d. As a little note, He is actually the same G-d; "Allah" litterally translates to G-d in Arabic. Unless you want to say that G-d is violent and barbaric, then get a life. Terrorists have nothing to do with Islam.

It doesn't matter if they're a minority, it's still wrong, you still can't justify it, and quite frankly, your "opperssion" argument falls flat on it's face.
I don't think he was trying to justify their actions as being OK, just to explain their reasons [albeit crazy ones] for doing it. I don't really see how 'the oppression arguement' fails. They attack citizens of western societies as an attack on western society itself.

It doesn't matter if they're a minority, it's still wrong, you still can't justify it, and quite frankly, your "opperssion" argument falls flat on it's face.

I am in no way trying to justify their actions. Their actions are wrong, but that is not to say that the USA and their allies are right either.

The reasons terrorist attacks occur is that these people believe they are fighting the USA. There is no way you can tell me that what the USA has done to the middle east is right. Now whats wrong with these people is that they fight the USA using dirty tactics, such as attacking civilians. They dont nessecarily see it as wrong as they see it as simply a response to US actions, but just like the US, they are short sighted, and dont see the full picture.

Now the original heading of this forum was about Islamic terrorist, and some people tried to respond by saying that muslims just want to spread their religion. I was simply disagreeing, and saying that the terrorists are a minority who use islam as a cover, and dont represent a majority of muslims.

Additionally, I've heard people say that Muslims worship a violent and barbaric G-d. As a little note, He is actually the same G-d; "Allah" litterally translates to G-d in Arabic. Unless you want to say that G-d is violent and barbaric, then get a life. Terrorists have nothing to do with Islam.

I'd like to say God is violent and barbaric. I mean, honestly... Have you ever read the old testament? My God!!

And, as an aside, why do you say "G-d?"

Any particular reason?

I'd like to say God is violent and barbaric. I mean, honestly... Have you ever read the old testament? My God!!

And, as an aside, why do you say "G-d?"

Any particular reason?

They say G-d because they don't want to offend anyone, and they're trying to be sensitive and PC. The usual crap.

Terrorists have nothing to do with Islam.

Precisly

i think of Islam just like i view every other religion, a great way to divide people and start shit

They say G-d because they don't want to offend anyone, and they're trying to be sensitive and PC. The usual crap.

[Keanu Reeves impression]

Woah.

[/Keanu Reeves impression]

But really, some people are offended by the spelling of the word "God?"
Damn, never heard that one before. That is quite intense.

[Keanu Reeves impression]

Woah.

[/Keanu Reeves impression]

But really, some people are offended by the spelling of the word "God?"
Damn, never heard that one before. That is quite intense.

Yea, there are some people out there who ae easily offendable. That's why they're so much fun for me! :D

[Keanu Reeves impression]

Woah.

[/Keanu Reeves impression]

But really, some people are offended by the spelling of the word "God?"
Damn, never heard that one before. That is quite intense.
You should see the responses when I spell Jesus with dollar signs.

J3$u$!

Look, I've travelled in several Muslim countries - from moderate to (what we perceive as) extremist. Generally, we could learn A LOT from Muslims when it comes to hospitability and friendliness. I've had not one single problem because I was a) a Westerner and b) an 'infidel'. Most of the Muslims are absolutely fine with what you believe (or not) - as it will be God who'll judge you and not them. I have always been welcomed and had a many interesting and constructive discussion about religion. In all my travels I met two guys who were sympathetic to the Taliban cause...out of hundrets of people I've met. Many had voiced their opinon that Osama is a discrace to Islam and that he brings disreputation upon their faith.
At the same time, yes, many also mentioned that the treatment of Palestinians and now Iraqis is not really pleasant to them - as Muslims still have more of a religious bond (as in: we're all Muslims) than us Christians. And anger due to this is certainly there in part of the Muslim community. Eventually, if you're poor enough and have no future prospects, some of them will fall into the hands of a few extremist nut-cases.

From my own experience, I would say that the problem is strictly political (the symptoms - terror attacks - anyhow). Yes, there are some who preach that everybody who doesn't believe in Allah and Mohammed is wrong and evil. However, the masses react on political and economic pressure and less on religious one.

As for 'there is no condemnation of the terror acts'. I undertand what you mean. But a) this is not true...our media is just not publicising it the same way as they do a speech my Osama or al Sadr and b) I see little outcry and official condemnation of how 'we' (as in the West) treat the human rights of Muslims (politically and economically) either. To use a very traditional Christian pharse: Who is without sin, throwest the first stone.

Yes, I am sure that Prince Saud and the King of Jordan are running scared from all the attacks on them. Be that as it may, it still does not answer my question. How do all these murders, kidnappings, and bombings equate with trying to free their people from oppression? And why, when some of these terrorist organizations take over an area, do they institute forms of what is claimed to be Sharia law that are even stricter and more oppressive than what was already in place?

And I am again curious. which wars, not including the ones the US has actually participated in, do you see America as having caused or created?

Yes, I know that they are a minority, and no one here is suggesting otherwise. Though, like Christian Fundamentalists, they are doing more damage to how the Muslim religion is perceived by the rest of the non-Islamic world than pretty much anything else.

Erm, you do understand that murder and suicide are not instinctive traits in the human animal? So murdering a group of people in Bali because of the political actions of the American government in the Middle East can hardly be called instinct. Or were you thinking of another word? If so, then please ignore the last paragraph.:cool:


Damn, in the time it took me to write out this post, there has been nearly a page of replies. Don't any of us have LIVES?

It's mostly political. One of the London bombers went for a burger before blowing himself up, for god's sake. The language may be religious, but the reasons are purely 20th century geopolitics.

Oppression...hahahaha.

Yep, the World trade center victims were OPPRESSING them! oh the poor babies! We didn't bend over and accept their wicked way of life! *Ahem* Cough Cough Kosovo*

The terrorists wage ware against us because..

A) We're supporting the underdog, Israel, and we help them when we can
B) We're America, predominantly christian w/ christian heritage...
C) We've invaded several countries lately that are muslim, and this incenses them to no end. "Oh our poor 99999999 times removed brethren of dirkastanish descent are being defiled by US military personel on their soil!
D) We prefer the AR-15, as opposed to the AK, which makes us instant infidels
E) We aren't muslim, for the most part
F) We don't force sharia upon people, or any religion for that matter
G) We can end their miserable lives whenever we, at our own leisure, desire too
H) We're the big kid on the block, they want their islamist way of life to conquer the globe, and we are directly in it's way.

I could go on...but you get the idea. American way of life does not compute with Islamist/sharia way of life

Oh, and we are just a bunch of oversexed drunk, stoned cowboys.

Ok here is my take to your reply
A.) Isreal is not the underdog, it is the only Middle Eastern Country with Nuclear weapons and fully funded by the US, that my friend is hardly the underdog
B.) It has nothing to do with America being of Christian heritage or a majority Christian, just like it has nothing to do with that in reguards to England.
C.) Unless you understand Islamic feelings on Holy Sites, you do not understand the anger it brews with US troops being there. They are not so mad at the fact that US troops are on Holy sites but the fact they percieve it as a grab for the oil in the region.
D.) That is just moronic right there.
E.) Again while not being Muslim is a part, it is not the only reason nor the main reason.
F.) There are many Islamic countries where the Sharia is not forced upon the people. Not forcing religion on others in the US, really, the evangelical right seems pretty intent on forcing there agenda on the nation in many ways. Dont just call out Muslims for that one.
G.) Wow, so we can end there lives at our leisure, is that something to be proud of? Wouldnt it be better if we helped them live better lives out of poverty instead of killing them off. That is a very small minded way of thinking.
h.)So being the only Superpower left, does that mean when we impose the American way of life its ok, because we are the big kid

Yes the American way of life and living an Islamic life can mesh. I am a born and bred American and a muslim at the same time. Its amazing that I am able to live a normal american life and yet be a faithful muslim. It has nothing to do with being a bunch over oversex cowboys, it has to do with the small minded mentality that everything American is better, and if you dont agree then we will just get rid of you. That arrogance is the problem and is far too common in America. And people who think you like you do, just add to the roles of recruits for these terrorists because instead of helping you tell them they are less than you, way to go...what an american

I would just like to remind all of you that there is no such thing as "Muslim Terrorism." There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, and most are appalled by terrorism. The terrorists in question (such as Osama BinLaden and the late Abu Musab Al Zarquawi) claimed that they are fighting in the name of Islam, but, in fact, they are doing the reverse. No real Muslim would ever advocate violence or rascism, etc. Just like any other major religion, Islam advocates peace. I think it's disgusting when people discriminate against Muslims, because they think they are terrorists. Incidentally, there are Christian terrorists too. Ever heard of E.L.F. or K.K.K. or even, for that matter, things like the Holocaust and the Spanish Inquisition? (which were both committed by Christians) Honestly...

Additionally, I've heard people say that Muslims worship a violent and barbaric G-d. As a little note, He is actually the same G-d; "Allah" litterally translates to G-d in Arabic. Unless you want to say that G-d is violent and barbaric, then get a life. Terrorists have nothing to do with Islam.

OK, so maybe Allah and God are the same as Brahman or Aten. But the God that I worship and the God that the terrorists worship are not the same. I know that.

A) We're supporting the underdog, Israel, and we help them when we can .

An 'underdog' would not have a first world army and nuclear and chemical weapons.

B) We're America, predominantly christian w/ christian heritage...
.

Yet they never bothered with you pre 1945.


C) We've invaded several countries lately that are muslim, and this incenses them to no end. "Oh our poor 99999999 times removed brethren of dirkastanish descent are being defiled by US military personel on their soil!
.

This is called 'empathy'. You can look it up later. In addition supporting various repressive regimes does and id the US no favours in the popularity stakes either.


F) We don't force sharia upon people, or any religion for that matter
.

Yet the US backed the Shah, who tried to forcibly secularise his people. In addition, the US has disposed of and helped destroy political movements it did not favour, in Latin America in particular.


G) We can end their miserable lives whenever we, at our own leisure, desire too.

Yet can't find a six foot six Saudi gentleman.


H) We're the big kid on the block, they want their islamist way of life to conquer the globe, and we are directly in it's way..

That would depend on which grouping you refer to.

OK, so maybe Allah and God are the same as Brahman or Aten. But the God that I worship and the God that the terrorists worship are not the same. I know that.

*giggle*

Are you a Christian?

Or a Jew?

If the answer to either question is yes, then you do in fact worship the same God. You and the terrorist simply view your relationships with God very differently, and decide how to serve that God differently.

*giggle*

Are you a Christian?

Or a Jew?

If the answer to either question is yes, then you do in fact worship the same God. You and the terrorist simply view your relationships with God very differently, and decide how to serve that God differently.

Yes to both. And I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Yes, your perspective makes sense and is correct. On the other hand, from my perspective, how can God tell me to live peacefully and tell somebody else the complete opposite? Simple answer: he can't.

Of course he can - as he only exist as a fabrication of the mind of some people. He's not a trinity, he's a multi-billionity. ;)

Besides that...on a more serious note: of coure she can. She's God, isn't she. I mean...can't she do whatever she wants BECAUSE she's GOD. She can snap her finger and you stop breathing, if she wants. Man, she can take out one of your rips and form a woman from it. So I am pretty sure, that she can also say one thing to you and another to somebody else.

Of course he can - as he only exist as a fabrication of the mind of some people. He's not a trinity, he's a multi-billionity. ;)

Besides that...on a more serious note: of coure she can. She's God, isn't she. I mean...can't she do whatever she wants BECAUSE she's GOD. She can snap her finger and you stop breathing, if she wants. Man, she can take out one of your rips and form a woman from it. So I am pretty sure, that she can also say one thing to you and another to somebody else.

Hmmm... well I guess we have different views on God.

One of Hitler's big things was the iron cross if I remember correctly ;)

Big things? You mean the medal he was awarded during the first world war?

Ok here is my take to your reply

C.) Unless you understand Islamic feelings on Holy Sites, you do not understand the anger it brews with US troops being there. They are not so mad at the fact that US troops are on Holy sites but the fact they percieve it as a grab for the oil in the region.



Erm remind me again who's allowed into the cities of Medina and Mecca, and who Israel allows to goto the big mosque in Jerusalem?


Then remind me who's allowed into Christain and Jewish holy sites

And I think someone here said something like "I'm amazed that I can be a practicing Muslim and lead a normal life." Right on!

I know plenty of Muslims who, just like you and me live a normal life. They enjoy the same things we do, and so on.
To be that ignorant simply shows that any thing you suggest should simply be dismissed as non sense

There is no way you can tell me that what the USA has done to the middle east is right.

Well lets look at what they have done

- Deposed an evil dictator
- Supported a democratic state when being attacked by extrmeists

I hate to point it out to you but the US is doing good things in the Middle East. Israel is a single democracy in the Middle East, and it does want peace. The US does too which is why the Clinton Barrack proposals gave the Palestians 95% of the West Bank and all of Gaza and E.Jerusalem. The PA rejected it and returned to viloence. They are now almost certian to get less land when the next deal comes up. You dont reward viloence with territory.

The terrorist attack the nations whom have been oppressing their people, often in directly. The USA and England were responsible for many wars in the middle east, and the creation of Israel.

wait a minute, what england has to do with it?
they vote AGAINST the creation of israel in the UN. they had laws ban jewish from going to israel, and they mostly side the arabs during the british mandate.
that is bad excuse for the unjustified terror.

I'd like to say God is violent and barbaric. I mean, honestly... Have you ever read the old testament? My God!!

And, as an aside, why do you say "G-d?"

Any particular reason?

Jews say G-d to keep in accordance to the THou shall not use the Lords name in vain.

ANy written statement of God that is destroyed, as in this post when it vanishes, would be a sin to the Jews.

Well lets look at what they have done

- Deposed an evil dictator
- Supported a democratic state when being attacked by extrmeists


Well, they have also supported several oppressive regimes – Iran (under the Shan) and Saudi Arabia for example. And while it is a good thing that Saddam is gone, the fact still remains that US invaded a sovereign country and is now occupying it with seemingly no intention on letting go of it again.

You need to look at both sides of the coin…

Well lets look at what they have done
- Deposed an evil dictator
- Supported a democratic state when being attacked by extrmeists
.

By jumping in and 'deposing' the greatly reduced dictator, they destabilised the region, increased support for |Jihadism, and undermined what little international law there is. Saddam was contained and slowly on the way out. The US went in there to make sure they were the ones who shaped Iraq, and not the Iraqi people.


I hate to point it out to you but the US is doing good things in the Middle East. Israel is a single democracy in the Middle East, and it does want peace.
.

Yet it continues to build settlements within the occupied territories.

The US does too which is why the Clinton Barrack proposals gave the Palestians 95% of the West Bank and all of Gaza and E.Jerusalem. The PA rejected it and returned to viloence. They are now almost certian to get less land when the next deal comes up. You dont reward viloence with territory.

An oversimplification re the '95%'. Nor was it all of East Jerusalem. In fact the nature of the proposal on Jerusalem was one of the reasons it failed.

Its also rather ironic, considering the brutal four decade long occupation, that you say that you should not reward 'violence with territory', particularily as many in the pro-Israeli camp seem to think theres some right of conquest.

. they had laws ban jewish from going to israel,.
Because the ever increasing numbers of arrivals was leading to trouble with the local Arabs, who feared being pushed out of their own country.

.
and they mostly side the arabs during the british mandate.
that is bad excuse for the unjustified terror.

They put down the Arab rebellion of 1936 with the aid of the settlers, and disarmed the Arab population. They did not disarm the settlers.......

Yet it continues to build settlements within the occupied territories.they are private citizens. it isn't acts of the goverment.
and you still fail to tell where the "palastinian will for peace" is seen. they still continue with their terror.


An oversimplification re the '95%'. Nor was it all of East Jerusalem. In fact the nature of the proposal on Jerusalem was one of the reasons it failed.

Its also rather ironic, considering the brutal four decade long occupation, that you say that you should not reward 'violence with territory', particularily as many in the pro-Israeli camp seem to think theres some right of conquest.
we give them proposal which let them much more than they can get now. they could go for the middle point or give counter-proposal. they didn't.
they prefer to attack us with terror, although they can build their country.
the excuses they made-up after that don't change the picture.

Because the ever increasing numbers of arrivals was leading to trouble with the local Arabs, who feared being pushed out of their own country.
yet, they didn't ban the arabs who come in ever increasing number for jobs in the jewish workplaces.


They put down the Arab rebellion of 1936 with the aid of the settlers, and disarmed the Arab population. They did not disarm the settlers.......
the jewish populace had hidden armor places. this is the only thing who block the british from disarm the jewish. the arabs were far from disarm. their robbers and gangsters attack jewish and arabs almost every day.
most of the local british police force made from arabs. israeli defence groups leaders were prisoned and had to hid from the british.
in the arab rebellions their were jewish in jerusalem who were attacked by the arabs. britain block tthe city gates and ban the inner jewish from run away and from the other populace aid and help the slautered populace.
same things happened in other areas.
the british prefer to keep good relations with the arab populace, and therefore let them do as they wish.
there were no arab group who tried to end the british mandate, but there were almost dozen of jewish groups which supported by almost all the populace. what more proof you need to get that the mandate was much better for the arabs?

Der Eiserne Kreuz has been one of the primary symbols of Germany throughout history. Much as he adopted various songs and uniforms from the previous German governments, he also adopted the Eiserne Kreuz.
Das Eiserne Kreuz was a war commendation founded by king Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia on march 10 1813. On the eve of the war of liberation against Napoleons France.

Do you feel Islamic terrorist/terrorism is more politically driven in that they do what they do in response to things like occupation in Palestine, Kashmir, and Checnya(sp?) etc. Or is it really just driven out of the Islamic fundies trying to setup an Islamic empire based on Shria law and islamic princples and see the west a barrier to that. whats your take on it and either way are their actions justified?

Personally I think it is motivated out of their desire to have Islam rule and see things such as western support of moderate governments in the middle east as something stopping them from reaching their extremist goals so they bomb and murder. To me this is unacceptable and those people should be destroyed.

I think religion has very little to do with it, but can easily be manipulated in order to give incentive.

I would just like to remind all of you that there is no such thing as "Muslim Terrorism." There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, and most are appalled by terrorism. The terrorists in question (such as Osama BinLaden and the late Abu Musab Al Zarquawi) claimed that they are fighting in the name of Islam, but, in fact, they are doing the reverse. No real Muslim would ever advocate violence or rascism, etc. Just like any other major religion, Islam advocates peace.

This subject has been discussed at length, check out http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=489606 The "no real Muslim" argument and the "Islam advocates peace" argument in particular are exposed and refuted.

Incidentally, there are Christian terrorists too. Ever heard of E.L.F. or K.K.K. or even, for that matter, things like the Holocaust and the Spanish Inquisition? (which were both committed by Christians) Honestly...

The Holocaust was by no means a "Christian" operation. The Spanish Inquisition is ancient history, long since renounced by all thinking Christians. Neither the ELF nor the KKK are blowing up restaurants, buses and buildings, nor do these groups have any meaningful support within Western civilization, let alone the level of support Islamofascist terrorists have within the "peaceful" Muslim world. Try again.

Additionally, I've heard people say that Muslims worship a violent and barbaric G-d. As a little note, He is actually the same G-d; "Allah" litterally translates to G-d in Arabic. Unless you want to say that G-d is violent and barbaric, then get a life. Terrorists have nothing to do with Islam.

Sura 109–UNBELIEVERS
“Say: O ye unbelievers!
I worship not that which ye worship,
And ye do not worship that which I worship;
I shall never worship that which ye worship,
Neither will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your religion; to me my religion.”

(From "Everyman's The Koran", translated by J.M. Rodwell, available on Amazon.com)

So much for your "same God" argument.

If you haven't done so yet, I suggest you try reading the Koran and the Hadith. You might also try reading commentaries on Sharia law, such as
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4726

Now, let's hear from the usual apologists and enablers for Islamofascism about how it's all bigotry, everything's quoted out of context, the quoted authorities "aren't real Muslims/don't speak for most Muslims", Christians do the same thing, yada yada yada.

The KKK is in no way "Christian" terrorism. It's more related to Nazism than it is to christianity.

Islamic extremists should have their leaders hung, their followers tased, and their dogs shot. In no particular order.
They're a "Christian Identity" terrorist organization.

The Christian Identity movement is a movement of many extremely conservative Christian churches and religious organizations, extreme right wing political groups and survival groups. Some are independent; others are loosely interconnected. According to Professor Michael Barkun, one of the leading experts in the Christian Identity movement, "This virulent racist and anti-Semitic theology, which is practiced by over 50,000 people in the United States alone, is prevalent among many right wing extremist groups and has been called the 'glue' of the racist right."

The largest Christian Identity movement has traditionally been the Ku Klux Klan which was reorganized in 1915 by William Simmons, a Christian pastor. He had been inspired by the film The Birth of a Nation which portrayed the KKK as a champion of white civilization. The KKK slid into obscurity by the second World War, but was revitalized in the mid 1950's as a reaction to enforced racial integration in the southern US.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm

Do you feel Islamic terrorist/terrorism is more politically driven in that they do what they do in response to things like occupation in Palestine, Kashmir, and Checnya(sp?) etc. Or is it really just driven out of the Islamic fundies trying to setup an Islamic empire based on Shria law and islamic princples and see the west a barrier to that. whats your take on it and either way are their actions justified?
Most are motivated by an extreme interpretation of their religion. They see the West as completely incompatible, decadent and sinful.

The KKK is in no way "Christian" terrorism. It's more related to Nazism than it is to christianity.

Islamic extremists should have their leaders hung, their followers tased, and their dogs shot. In no particular order.

Yeah, nazism is so much better than terrorism because its christians doing it.

OK, DesignatedMarksman's post are still getting a run this late in the thread. And the KKK is Christian. And I agreed with DM, a person I've only known for a few days, but am pretty sure is diametrically opposed to my views on everything. And I offended the only person in this debate who's opinion held any weight for me, by trying to agree with him.

I know when I'm out of my depth. I'm deleting my earlier posts, and going to bed. May you all make of this thread whatever wisdom and compassion you may. :)

- Deposed an evil dictator

That the US put in power.

- Supported a democratic state when being attacked by extrmeists

Yeah, same way we supported the democratically elected Hamas gov't. Oh wait...

"one can either be a german, or a christian, not both"
-heeetler

Hmmm...
Link and context?

wait a minute, what england has to do with it?
they vote AGAINST the creation of israel in the UN. they had laws ban jewish from going to israel, and they mostly side the arabs during the british mandate.
that is bad excuse for the unjustified terror.

Great Britain owned the land which is now known as Palestine before WWII.

I find Islamic terrorism no more appalling than any other form of terrorism. It takes both sides to make a war a Holy War, so i don't like falling into the Islamic terrorists vs. us model of thinking.

they are private citizens. it isn't acts of the goverment.
and you still fail to tell where the "palastinian will for peace" is seen. they still continue with their terror..

O So Israel has no control over the settlers?


we give them proposal which let them much more than they can get now. they could go for the middle point or give counter-proposal. they didn't.
they prefer to attack us with terror, although they can build their country.
the excuses they made-up after that don't change the picture.

But the fact that Arafat was a crap negotiator doesnt justify the occupation. Besides, its like recognising the right of a mugger to a percentage of whats in your pocket.


yet, they didn't ban the arabs who come in ever increasing number for jobs in the jewish workplaces.

More mythology. There was business and agriculture in Palestine long before the Zionist project began.

the jewish populace had hidden armor places. this is the only thing who block the british from disarm the jewish. the arabs were far from disarm. their robbers and gangsters attack jewish and arabs almost every day.
most of the local british police force made from arabs. israeli defence groups leaders were prisoned and had to hid from the british.
in the arab rebellions their were jewish in jerusalem who were attacked by the arabs. britain block tthe city gates and ban the inner jewish from run away and from the other populace aid and help the slautered populace.
same things happened in other areas.
the british prefer to keep good relations with the arab populace, and therefore let them do as they wish.


The British made no effort to disarm the settlers before attacks on crown forces began. The Hagganah aided the British in putting down the Arab rebellion. The British then disarmed the Arab population. Seriously.

It must go the way of the dodo bird... <.<

Points:

I agree that most Muslims disagree with the terrorists. HOWEVER, if the antagonist is extreme and committed enough, they don't need numbers to make terrible history. It only took one guy shooting a nobleman to precipitate WWI and it only took twelve guys with weapons costing US$1.50 each to accomplish 9/11. Most suicide bombings are the work of one, two, possibly three people per incident and they impact double and triple digits, per incident.

My view of the so-called "Islamic terrorists" is that they are no more Islamic than Jeffrey Dahmer was an Aztec high priest. They're just using the cloak of the predominant religion in their locus as a legitimizing factor. They're talking a good game, just like the "Christian" Dominionist movement here in the States (take a look at their credo and modus operandi and you'll quickly understand why I put the "Christian" part in quotes; Jesus wouldn't have anything to do with these guys if he were alive today).

Couple more points:
I have a friend who has a theory. She states that religions go through timeline cycles and cites that when the Christian and Judaeic religions were at the age of Islam today, they put as much emphasis on violence and intolerance as Wahhabi Islam does today. Islam is the youngest of the Abrahamic traditions at 800 years old; when the Christian Church was 800 years old, it was entering the Dark Ages. I'm sure that a lot of Spaniards didn't approve of the Inquisition but it went on just the same. The Crusades were a branch off the same tree of violent intolerance. Go back to the other 800-year marker and shift camera to the Hebraic tribes: what were they doing 800 years after the Exodus from Egypt? A lot of killing and raping and slave-taking.

The Jihadist movement is a branch out of Wahhabi Islam, which is roughly equivalent to extreme fundamentalism. Not violent in and of itself but it fosters an environment wherein violent intolerance can thrive. The problem is that the violently intolerant minority is allowed to become the voice of the culture because the moderates and liberals don't stand up to shout it down and give them centring slaps. Mosques are more than places of worship: they're gathering places for the people to mix and speak. A lot of loudmouthed, intolerant clerics of the Islamic religion get up and spout off, because they have the power in their community to do so. Their followers stand in front of them and go, "Yeah, that's right!" and then go forth and act on their words. This is how a vocal minority with a fire in its belly and a "chosen one" mentality young turks it and screws it up for everyone. At least here, when Ann Coulter and Pat Robertson open their mouths and spew, there's people with the guts 'n gumption to stand up, face front and tell them to shut the hell up. Who's going to stand up, look a mullah or ayatollah in the eye and tell him he's off his rocker? His followers would MOIDALIZE and lixivate anyone who did that.

It must go the way of the dodo bird... <.<
Your back! I thought you disappeared