NationStates Jolt Archive

That's about all I can say about this jackass (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-0711ctension,0,6635674.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines).

POMPANO BEACH -- Dozens of black residents, joined by some whites and Hispanics, rallied Tuesday in front of City Hall to protest a mosque's planned move into the predominantly black northwest area.

More than 60 people responded to a group of ministers' call for the protest, demanding that the City Commission rescind the permission it gave the Islamic Center of South Florida to move into the neighborhood. The mosque plans to build a 29,000 square-foot center on a 4.8 acre site where many residents want to see affordable homes.

"A mosque is more needed in a community where you have Muslim people already dwelling,'' said the Rev. Aaron Wiggins of Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.

"I believe they are trying to expand their territory,'' he said. "They are bringing Islam in a Christian community.''

Led by the Rev. O'Neal Dozier of the Worldwide Christian Center, protestors carried signs opposing the relocation of the mosque from the city's northeast area. Some called Muslims "dangerous" and "terrorists."

Dozier, who last week called Islam a cult, said in an interview that commissioners would face repercussions at the ballot box if they did not change their June 14 decision. allowing the mosque to move into the neighborhood.

There's more of the usual stupidity: A threatened lawsuit (under what grounds, I have no idea), the claims that Islam is intolerant (as though Dozier's tolerance is a fucking beacon of purity), etc.

It's really tough in our days of overheated rhetoric against Islam to make a Muslim look like an innocent victim--it's a damn shame, but it's the truth--but Dozier does it with flying colors. I almost wish I were at home now instead of on a road trip, just so I could show up at the protest and call them all a bunch of hypocrites.

Oh, it's always so wonderful when the people that get shit on the most in a country can turn around and find another group that THEY can shit on too... I wonder if we'll see a lot of Muslim-hating aboriginals in Canada?

I really can't stand people like that. Not only is it racist against muslims, but what right would they or the government have in preventing them from moving in? Why did they even need permission to build a Mosque?

Wow... I'm only 15 and I can see how dumb they are...

I really can't stand people like that. Not only is it racist against muslims, but what right would they or the government have in preventing them from moving in? Why did they even need permission to build a Mosque?
Well, they need permission in the form of building permits and the like, but that's more a formality than anything else.

wait wait wait...

a lawsuit. Against a mosque. To prevent them from opening in a neighborhood. Because muslims are intollerant...

And the muslims are the intolerant ones?

I love irony.

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate. If this is a poor black community, then they need affordable housing a hell of a lot more than a 29,000 sq. foot mosque, which is just unneccessary. So what if they are protesting a Muslim building? They need a place to live more than a place to not worship.

Well, they need permission in the form of building permits and the like, but that's more a formality than anything else.
Obviously you have never tried to obtain a building permit. And before anyone flames me, my father is a contractor and now owns his own development, so I am definitely more familiar with this than the average person. Building permits are a pain in the ass.

Maybe you've seen the bumper sticker, "Make welfare as hard to get as a building permit"?

wait wait wait...

a lawsuit. Against a mosque. To prevent them from opening in a neighborhood. Because muslims are intollerant...

And the muslims are the intolerant ones?

I love irony.
Ya know, I was just wondering the same thing myself... :p

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate. If this is a poor black community, then they need affordable housing a hell of a lot more than a 29,000 sq. foot mosque, which is just unneccessary. So what if they are protesting a Muslim building? They need a place to live more than a place to not worship.
You'll get no argument from me about the need for affordable housing in south Florida--I'm living the dream right now [/sarcasm]. But the people putting up the mosque own the land as I understand it, and they've jumped through the requisite hoops to get their church built. Would anyone in this "protest group" be bitching if Dozier were putting up a big ass church? Not likely.

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate. If this is a poor black community, then they need affordable housing a hell of a lot more than a 29,000 sq. foot mosque, which is just unneccessary. So what if they are protesting a Muslim building? They need a place to live more than a place to not worship.

Except that that's not what their complaining about:
"I believe they are trying to expand their territory,'' he said. "They are bringing Islam in a Christian community.''

Led by the Rev. O'Neal Dozier of the Worldwide Christian Center, protestors carried signs opposing the relocation of the mosque from the city's northeast area. Some called Muslims "dangerous" and "terrorists."

Ahhhh, its good to be a Floridian!:)

You'll get no argument from me about the need for affordable housing in south Florida--I'm living the dream right now [/sarcasm]. But the people putting up the mosque own the land as I understand it, and they've jumped through the requisite hoops to get their church built. Would anyone in this "protest group" be bitching if Dozier were putting up a big ass church? Not likely.

Unless it was in fact a place for worshiping 'big ass'.

It seems that the fear is with this new centre of worship, Muslims may start moving into the community.

Kind of like how whites used to get all freaked out about how blacks were taking over the neighbourhoods...

Unless it was in fact a place for worshiping 'big ass'.
I love those places...




I mean...


nothing

Unless it was in fact a place for worshiping 'big ass'.
We have those already--they're called nightclubs. ;)

I really can't stand people like that. Not only is it racist against muslims, but what right would they or the government have in preventing them from moving in? Why did they even need permission to build a Mosque?
um racist?! :confused:

Wow... I'm only 15 and I can see how dumb they are...

Woot!*high fives UCK*

It seems that the fear is with this new centre of worship, Muslims may start moving into the community.

Kind of like how whites used to get all freaked out about how blacks were taking over the neighbourhoods...
I find it ironic and quite sad that a group that is discriminated against can do the same to someone else

Maybe you've seen the bumper sticker, "Make welfare as hard to get as a building permit"?

Well as long as it's not as hard as making it through the DMV I'm sure we'd all be happy. :p

I find it ironic and quite sad that a group that is discriminated against can do the same to someone else
*bites tongue firmly and resists mentioning the elephant in the kitchen*

*bites tongue firmly and resists mentioning the elephant in the kitchen*
there's an elephant in the kitchen?:eek:




sorry...I couldn't resist...

Obviously you have never tried to obtain a building permit. And before anyone flames me, my father is a contractor and now owns his own development, so I am definitely more familiar with this than the average person. Building permits are a pain in the ass.

Maybe you've seen the bumper sticker, "Make welfare as hard to get as a building permit"?
Building permits aren't really the same as zoning, and zoning is what determines what can be built where, permits just dictate how you go about it. (Guess who else was raised by a developer).

If the area is zoned to allow a place of worship then that's what can go there. I don't know if they had to petition to get the area re-zoned, which can be a pain in the ass (think of the climax of every 80s movie based on a trend where the kids show up to that meeting with signs and breakdancers, that's a zoning meeting.)

wait wait wait...

a lawsuit. Against a mosque. To prevent them from opening in a neighborhood. Because muslims are intollerant...

And the muslims are the intolerant ones?

I love irony.

*drools on irony*

Unless it was in fact a place for worshiping 'big ass'.
Oooh, racist!
LOL I tried to skip over the parts that didn't go with my friendly portrayal of the poor black community, but obviously I'm not gonna get away with it. I'll have to study some more of Rush's tricks to get it down.


By the way, they aren't racist asses :) . They are merely prejudiced against another religion. They said nothing about Arabs, and not all Arabs are Muslims, or vice-versa.

If it offends the majority of the community and makes them feel unsafe...then I agree it shouldnt be built.

This place is all about trying to make as many people happy as possible, so you obviously cant make a minority happy at the expense of the majority.

Oooh, racist!
LOL I tried to skip over the parts that didn't go with my friendly portrayal of the poor black community, but obviously I'm not gonna get away with it. I'll have to study some more of Rush's tricks to get it down.


By the way, they aren't racist asses :) . They are merely prejudiced against another religion. They said nothing about Arabs, and not all Arabs are Muslims, or vice-versa.

Like Cat Stevens*nods*

If it offends the majority of the community and makes them feel unsafe...then I agree it shouldnt be built.

This place is all about trying to make as many people happy as possible, so you obviously cant make a minority happy at the expense of the majority.
Nor can you allow a tyranny of the majority.

If it offends the majority of the community and makes them feel unsafe...then I agree it shouldnt be built.

This place is all about trying to make as many people happy as possible, so you obviously cant make a minority happy at the expense of the majority.
I can imagine the furor if a predominantly Muslim community lobbied against a Christian church being built in their neighbourhood...

Is it too late to give Florida back to Spain?

wait wait wait...

a lawsuit. Against a mosque. To prevent them from opening in a neighborhood. Because muslims are intollerant...

And the muslims are the intolerant ones?

I love irony.

That kinda sums it up.

God/Allah/etc forbid we allow freedom of religion =o

If it offends the majority of the community and makes them feel unsafe...then I agree it shouldnt be built.

This place is all about trying to make as many people happy as possible, so you obviously cant make a minority happy at the expense of the majority.
By trying to make everyone happy, you usually end up with alot of pissed off people.
I wonder what, exactly, this mostly-black neighborhood would say if they wanted to open a church in a mostly-white neighborhood and were stopped because blacks are violent and dangerous?

I can imagine the furor if a predominantly Muslim community lobbied against a Christian church being built in their neighbourhood...

I can too. But I dont have to imagine it...I just glance east to the middle east where we can see how muslims treat their fellow non believers...like Christians and Jews.

Building permits aren't really the same as zoning, and zoning is what determines what can be built where, permits just dictate how you go about it. (Guess who else was raised by a developer).

If the area is zoned to allow a place of worship then that's what can go there. I don't know if they had to petition to get the area re-zoned, which can be a pain in the ass (think of the climax of every 80s movie based on a trend where the kids show up to that meeting with signs and breakdancers, that's a zoning meeting.)
LOL true, but a building that size is going to be extremely difficult to get a permit for in a small community, especially since the land likely isn't zoned as anything but residential or commercial. And re-zoning would take so long the protesters would be bored before it was over. But the building permit for a church, isn't the same as for a residential building, and the size is going to factor in. Also, they will most likely have to have plumbing/water installed because it sounds as if the land isn't developed, which involves the county Water and Sewer District, as well as electricity, which brings in whichever utility company operates in that county, and thats just the start. ;)

If it offends the majority of the community and makes them feel unsafe...then I agree it shouldnt be built.

This place is all about trying to make as many people happy as possible, so you obviously cant make a minority happy at the expense of the majority.
So does that mean that if I can get enough people in Oakland Park to sign a petition saying that they think the minister of Coral Ridge Ministries is a douchebag and that his church should go that it ought to be torn down? Much as I dislike Kennedy, I wouldn't support that kind of action, because it's crap. Property rights may not be the end all, but they do mean something, and unless the community can show that the mosque will be a negative influence on the community--and simply not liking it does not constitute a negative influence--then they need to accept that it's coming in.

We have those already--they're called nightclubs. ;)

Exactly. If, by 'big ass church', you meant nightclub, Then I could imagine them protesting it.

Is it too late to give Florida back to Spain?

Uh...fuck off?

I can too. But I dont have to imagine it...I just glance east to the middle east where we can see how muslims treat their fellow non believers...like Christians and Jews.
Ah well, they lobbied against the huge church of Israel being built in their neighbourhood, and that didn't work...

...so on with the construction!

Is it too late to give Florida back to Spain?
It belonged to others first...maybe you should consider them?

I can too. But I dont have to imagine it...I just glance east to the middle east where we can see how muslims treat their fellow non believers...like Christians and Jews.
Dude, christian congregations have co-existed peacefully with muslims for two thousand years, and continue to do so today, and a number of Jewish communities exist in Arab countries to this day as well.

By trying to make everyone happy, you usually end up with alot of pissed off people.
I wonder what, exactly, this mostly-black neighborhood would say if they wanted to open a church in a mostly-white neighborhood and were stopped because blacks are violent and dangerous?

I also wonder. This has nothing to do with blacks and White....this has to do with Muslims. The point is, the majority of the community does not want said mosque in their community. I dont see the problem with that.

Nor can you allow a tyranny of the majority.

Rather have a tyranny of the majority then a few benefit over the majority.

I think they should build a Kosher strip club. Everyone wins.

Uh...fuck off?
aww, atlantian...you can come stay with me :fluffle:

I think they should build a Kosher strip club. Everyone wins.
Only if you get to eat dill pickles out of the orifices of beautiful Jewish women..

I can too. But I dont have to imagine it...I just glance east to the middle east where we can see how muslims treat their fellow non believers...like Christians and Jews.
That has relevance to an American mosque being built in an American city in what way? Sorry, man, it's measured on our standards (freedom of religion being one of them) not "Yeah, but someone with the same imaginary friend across the globe is a dick about shit so we're going to be a dick to you" playground logic.

I also wonder. This has nothing to do with blacks and White....this has to do with Muslims. The point is, the majority of the community does not want said mosque in their community. I dont see the problem with that.

The problem is bigotry. There is no difference between whites hating blacks because of skin color as christians hating muslims because of religion.

Just because the majority support a position, that doesn't make it okay. There is no reason this building should not be built. If anything, something positive might just come out of it.

Uh...fuck off?
I concur. I loved the Keys. fuck off.

So does that mean that if I can get enough people in Oakland Park to sign a petition saying that they think the minister of Coral Ridge Ministries is a douchebag and that his church should go that it ought to be torn down? Much as I dislike Kennedy, I wouldn't support that kind of action, because it's crap. Property rights may not be the end all, but they do mean something, and unless the community can show that the mosque will be a negative influence on the community--and simply not liking it does not constitute a negative influence--then they need to accept that it's coming in.

They can just say they dont want what happend in Miami (with those homegrown muslim terrorists) happening in their neighborhoods. Mosques can be used as a place to teach extremism and violence.

Dude, christian congregations have co-existed peacefully with muslims for two thousand years, and continue to do so today, and a number of Jewish communities exist in Arab countries to this day as well.

Ok, tell that to the Jews that have been threatend by Muslim/Palestinian leaders...and tell that to the Christian syrians and lebanese who were basically forced to leave their countries cuz shit was so bad for them over there.

They can just say they dont want what happend in Miami (with those homegrown muslim terrorists) happening in their neighborhoods. Mosques can be used as a place to teach extremism and violence.They can also be used as a place to teach acceptance and peace. Forcing them to enter into a hostile environment isn't going to help anything.

Pompano Beach is not a poor black community, it has one. There's a difference. That community needs affordable housing closer to their jobs.

Why build a mosque in a Judeo/Christian community. Why encroach when there is still plenty of land to develop?

It belonged to others first...maybe you should consider them?

To the victors go the spoils of war. This land belongs to America...not abunch of tribal hunter/gatherer indians who had their chance with it. Get over it, you guys lost the land. Every nation/empire/civilization in history has conquered land, invaded, and destroyed other countries/civilizations...I dont see why what happend to the Indians is unique. Get over it.

I also wonder. This has nothing to do with blacks and White....this has to do with Muslims. The point is, the majority of the community does not want said mosque in their community. I dont see the problem with that.



Rather have a tyranny of the majority then a few benefit over the majority.
Luckily enough our founding fathers knew that was total bullshit. If I can convince enough people that people with red hair are a menace and should be shaved and penned, even if I amass that majority, I should rightly be ignored. Becuase even if we all hate coppertops, they still have the same rights as everyone else and a mob cannot take those rights away. If we allowed that kind of behavior liberty and freedom would be thin tissues indeed.

The problem is bigotry. There is no difference between whites hating blacks because of skin color as christians hating muslims because of religion.Yes there is.

To the victors go the spoils of war. This land belongs to America...not abunch of tribal hunter/gatherer indians who had their chance with it. Get over it, you guys lost the land. Every nation/empire/civilization in history has conquered land, invaded, and destroyed other countries/civilizations...I dont see why what happend to the Indians is unique. Get over it.
You're such a dick sometimes.

They can also be used as a place to teach acceptance and peace. Forcing them to enter into a hostile environment isn't going to help anything.

They are already entering an environment that doesnt want them there....thats already hostile.

Why build a mosque in a Judeo/Christian community. Why encroach when there is still plenty of land to develop?

Exactly.

Luckily enough our founding fathers knew that was total bullshit. If I can convince enough people that people with red hair are a menace and should be shaved and penned, even if I amass that majority, I should rightly be ignored. Becuase even if we all hate coppertops, they still have the same rights as everyone else and a mob cannot take those rights away. If we allowed that kind of behavior liberty and freedom would be thin tissues indeed.

I never said it was right...I said I'd RATHER have this over that.

You're such a dick sometimes.

*shrug* 'e's the only one what'll say that to Sinu anyways.

You're such a dick sometimes.
Yes. Yes I am.

Why build a mosque in a Judeo/Christian community. Why encroach when there is still plenty of land to develop?

Possibly because a growing Muslim community in the area decided to create a place of worship. Happened here in central Kentucky a month ago, a brand new mosque is built between an Episcopalian Church and a Methodist Church.

They can just say they dont want what happend in Miami (with those homegrown muslim terrorists) happening in their neighborhoods. Mosques can be used as a place to teach extremism and violence.Yeah--those mighty terrorists who had no money, no weapons, no intel on the supposed target, and apparently pledged allegiance to Osama Bin Laden after they were encouraged to do so by the FBI informant who had infiltrated them.

Besides, while mosques can be used as places to teach extremism, so can other places, like christian churches. Example 1: Coral Ridge Ministries. They've advocated the imprisonment of gays and lesbians and would like the US to become a theocracy--they consider it their divine mission, as a matter of fact. Example 2: Randall Terry and Operation Rescue, who at one time advocated the murder of abortion doctors. Extremism can be taught anywhere.

Ok, tell that to the Jews that have been threatend by Muslim/Palestinian leaders...and tell that to the Christian syrians and lebanese who were basically forced to leave their countries cuz shit was so bad for them over there.
CToaN handled the problem with your last comment, so I'll leave it at that, and only add that you really ought to learn more about the situation between the three major religions in the middle east from some less biased sources. There's a lot less local tension between the religious groups than most people believe there is. There's political tension out the wazzoo, but not so much in the worship department.

To the victors go the spoils of war. This land belongs to America...not abunch of tribal hunter/gatherer indians who had their chance with it. Get over it, you guys lost the land. Every nation/empire/civilization in history has conquered land, invaded, and destroyed other countries/civilizations...I dont see why what happend to the Indians is unique. Get over it.
Oh, I'm over it. Speak Spanish yet? I like this current invasion, blondey.

They are already entering an environment that doesnt want them there....thats already hostile.

There were only 60 people protesting, according to the article. Hardly a hostile community, more like a hostile minority.

I never said it was right...I said I'd RATHER have this over that.
I'd rather be able to use a stun-gun on people who wait in line for five minutes only to start thinking about their order when they get to the front, but there are sound reasons why I don't get to.

EDIT: not that anyone is going to reread this, but to be clear I like the protections from the majority that exist, just in case this response gave the impression I didn't ...

*shrug* 'e's the only one what'll say that to Sinu anyways.

People talk shit to me, (I'm Jewish) about Israel all the time. I always hear about how Israel should never have been created...Israelis are mass murderes, ect... Why cant I talk shit to an Indian about all this tribal/feel sorry for Indians bullshit?

People talk shit to me, (I'm Jewish) about Israel all the time. I always hear about how Israel should never have been created...Israelis are mass murderes, ect... Why cant I talk shit to an Indian about all this tribal/feel sorry for Indians bullshit?
Wow, classic displacement.

Yes there is.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that difference would be........?

They are already entering an environment that doesnt want them there....thats already hostile.So why make it worse?


Why build a mosque in a Judeo/Christian community. Why encroach when there is still plenty of land to develop?Because there are enough Muslims in the general area to support a mosque, lest they wouldn't build it.

Why should their be any catholic churches or jewish temples or any other house of worship in the US? After all, it is a majority protestant land, and the protestants didn't want us here in the first place

Pompano Beach is not a poor black community, it has one. There's a difference. That community needs affordable housing closer to their jobs.

Why build a mosque in a Judeo/Christian community. Why encroach when there is still plenty of land to develop?
Plenty of land? Are you insane? South Florida is one of the most built up places in the US--that's why housing costs are so ridiculous in the first place.

Oh, I'm over it. Speak Spanish yet? I like this current invasion, blondey.

Actually, I'm not bad at Spanish. Me and your buddy Keruvalia were posting to each other back and forth in it earlier. I'm no where near fluent, but I can get by easy.

The way I see it, if the hispanic culture is that much better than the American culture, we dont deserve to win. The day this flag and what it stands for falls, is the day I move to Switzerland/Finland.

Luckily enough our founding fathers knew that was total bullshit. If I can convince enough people that people with red hair are a menace and should be shaved and penned, even if I amass that majority, I should rightly be ignored. Becuase even if we all hate coppertops, they still have the same rights as everyone else and a mob cannot take those rights away. If we allowed that kind of behavior liberty and freedom would be thin tissues indeed.
You're full of it. Our founding fathers tarred and feathered the Tories, and owned slaves. It was freedom for Americans, but we did have definite boundaries as to what constituted an American.

People talk shit to me, (I'm Jewish) about Israel all the time. I always hear about how Israel should never have been created...Israelis are mass murderes, ect... Why cant I talk shit to an Indian about all this tribal/feel sorry for Indians bullshit?
Cuz it ain't the topic of the thread...but if you'd like to actually have that conversation, and have the shit knocked out of your mouth, feel free to join me in the Native American Discussion Thread...utilise your search function.

Plenty of land? Are you insane? South Florida is one of the most built up places in the US--that's why housing costs are so ridiculous in the first place.
Agreed. I just drove up out of South Florida into the 'South' yesterday and today..and its amazing how much free land is up there, compared to down where we live.

People talk shit to me, (I'm Jewish) about Israel all the time. I always hear about how Israel should never have been created...Israelis are mass murderes, ect... Why cant I talk shit to an Indian about all this tribal/feel sorry for Indians bullshit?
people treating you like shit gives you the right to treat others like shit? No, sorry. If anything it lets you know exactly the weight that your actions carry, and therefore, much more responsibility.

Possibly because a growing Muslim community in the area decided to create a place of worship. Happened here in central Kentucky a month ago, a brand new mosque is built between an Episcopalian Church and a Methodist Church.

There isn't one.

There's a lot of condo's, golf courses, decent food, great beach and a lack of nearby labor. No budding islamic community. I go there 4 times a year to golf with firends who moved there from Long Island New York. The only budding community is Columbian and they tend to be Baptist, 7th day Adventsist and Catholic.

Cuz it ain't the topic of the thread...but if you'd like to actually have that conversation, and have the shit knocked out of your mouth, feel free to join me in the Native American Discussion Thread...utilise your search function.
I left you a post in there like a week ago, the thread faded away and I didnt see you answer it.

Actually, I'm not bad at Spanish. Me and your buddy Keruvalia were posting to each other back and forth in it earlier. I'm no where near fluent, but I can get by easy.

Hahahahahhaaa....hear that Keru? Now we're buddies....;)

You're full of it. Our founding fathers tarred and feathered the Tories, and owned slaves. It was freedom for Americans, but we did have definite boundaries as to what constituted an American.
Yeah, you're gonna want to rattle that sabre in a more relevant subject. I really was talking more about the portections written in to the government from a tyranny of the majority. You want to talk about thier individual short comings or other issues they may have had in the founding of the country that's really a whole other discussion.

people treating you like shit gives you the right to treat others like shit? No, sorry. If anything it lets you know exactly the weight that your actions carry, and therefore, much more responsibility.

No, I dont care if someone talks shit about Israel, that wasnt my point.
I was saying that there is no reason I shouldnt be able to talk about the victory over the Indians when an Indian is present.

You're full of it. Our founding fathers tarred and feathered the Tories, and owned slaves. It was freedom for Americans, but we did have definite boundaries as to what constituted an American.
No, the idiot masses did that. Our founding fathers would be those who wrote the declaration of independance and constitution. There is a significant difference

people treating you like shit gives you the right to treat others like shit? No, sorry. If anything it lets you know exactly the weight that your actions carry, and therefore, much more responsibility.
Well it supports his supposition that what nations in the Middle East do justifies how Muslims in the US should be treated.

Not a tenable position, but hey...

I left you a post in there like a week ago, the thread faded away and I didnt see you answer it.
Funny, I just posted in that thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=487657) today.

Hahahahahhaaa....hear that Keru? Now we're buddies....;)

1. Way to totally not say anything to the part you quoted.

2.Way to not quote and reply to the 'meat and potatoes' of that post.

I think it's a good idea, as far as building the mosque goes. It's much easier to hate people when you don't have to deal with them. Many people are terrified of Muslims because they don't encounter them on a regular basis. I think a mosque in their backyard will show them a different side of Islam. Either that, or show how superficial their belief in "love thy neighbor" is.

Funny, I just posted in that thread today.

Well why dont we see if you left me a reply.

No, the idiot masses did that. Our founding fathers would be those who wrote the declaration of independance and constitution. There is a significant difference
Really? The founding fathers didn't own slaves? And in some of the Federalist Papers, written by Madison, among others, they didn't condemn those who supported the British as traitors? Maybe a background check needs to be done?

1. Way to totally not say anything to the part you quoted.

2.Way to not quote and reply to the 'meat and potatoes' of that post.
Your post is empty calories...I avoid those.

Not to mention you've admitted privately to another Generalite that you mostly troll-post...so if I don't give you much attention, it's because I know your heart isn't really in it.

Really? The founding fathers didn't own slaves? And in some of the Federalist Papers, written by Madison, among others, they didn't condemn those who supported the British as traitors? Maybe a background check needs to be done?
Did you mention a single one of those in your post? No. You mentioned tarring and feathering. And I responded to that statement.

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate. If this is a poor black community, then they need affordable housing a hell of a lot more than a 29,000 sq. foot mosque, which is just unneccessary. So what if they are protesting a Muslim building? They need a place to live more than a place to not worship.

That's not devil's advocacy. That's what the protestors would be saying if they'd bothered to consider their legal position before sounding off.

This isn't meant to be racist, but ... two ministers, called Dozier and Wiggins ? They should have stayed in the church and sent a lawyer instead :(

Well why dont we see if you left me a reply.
Did you bother to read the rest of the thread I wonder...

Reply (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11341271&postcount=150).

Yeah, you're gonna want to rattle that sabre in a more relevant subject. I really was talking more about the portections written in to the government from a tyranny of the majority. You want to talk about thier individual short comings or other issues they may have had in the founding of the country that's really a whole other discussion.
Right, actions as opposed to words. I happen to believe actions speak louder. Obviously you don't. Discussion done.

Moving on...

That's not devil's advocacy. That's what the protestors would be saying if they'd bothered to consider their legal position before sounding off.

This isn't meant to be racist, but ... two ministers, called Dozier and Wiggins ? They should have stayed in the church and sent a lawyer instead :(
ROFL

I like you, just after that one post.

Your post is empty calories...I avoid those.

Uh...ok, but you still reply to part of it which means you didnt aviod it.:rolleyes:

Not to mention you've admitted privately to another Generalite that you mostly troll-post...so if I don't give you much attention, it's because I know your heart isn't really in it. Uh, no I didnt. First of all I dont "mostly troll-post"...second of all I didnt "admit" anything to anyone "privately"...what are you smoking?

I think it’s a good idea, as far as building the mosque goes. It’s much easier to hate people when you don’t have to deal with them. Many people are terrified of Muslims because they don’t encounter them on a regular basis. I think a mosque in their backyard will show them a different side of Islam.
The mosque near where I used to live has a wee restaraunt inside it which sells the best damn curries(spl?) I’ve tasted. All you can eat, homemade curry, for about £2 (roughly $4). And, unlike many Christian establishments, you can partake of the food, art and literature around you without being bombarded with a God sales pitch.

I love un-evangelical religions!

The mosque near where I used to live has a wee restaraunt inside it which sells the best damn curries(spl?) I’ve tasted. All you can eat, homemade curry, for about £2 (roughly $4). And, unlike many Christian establishments, you can partake of the food, art and literature around you without being bombarded with a God sales pitch.

I love un-evangelical religions!

That's the main problem with evangelism: the most vocal proponents of a religion are often the ones that are least representative of the believers. I would think that before advocating a belief system to others, one would want to be considered worthy of respect. If someone thinks you're a raving lunatic, the last thing they want to do is adopt your belief system.

Right, actions as opposed to words. I happen to believe actions speak louder. Obviously you don't. Discussion done.

Moving on...
What kind of...wow, just wow.

Alright, little dude-1st The statement was about the protections of the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Now-with your little footstamping hijacking rant, are you implying that it should be abandoned because Jefferson got busy with a slave?

Or that we shouldn't recongnize one of the real geniuses of the constitution, that it recognizes the short comings of those who wrote it?

Frankly, what the fuck is the point of your little tyraid? Did you just come across one of those "Things they didn't teach you in high school history class" books and think you've found a great secret everyone else doesn't know?

Uh, no I didnt. First of all I dont "mostly troll-post"...second of all I didnt "admit" anything to anyone "privately"...what are you smoking?
You should realise that you may not be the only one MSNing someone at a specific time. :D

You should realise that you may not be the only one MSNing someone at a specific time. :D

I assumed you were talking about Fass and my statement still stands..I never said I mostly troll-post. Infact, I DONT troll-post...I dont know what he said I said that made you think that.

The Irish Catholics and Germans came to the US, they were discriminated against, their churches were torched, and had bricks thrown through their windows. Then they just became considered part of "white" America, and with the Civil Rights Movements there were race riots and protests because of Blacks moving in. Now Black and White Americans are joining in to protest the Muslims moving in and building a Church. Hopefully, the rest of the world will soon have migrants to the US, so that we all become integrated and consider ourselves Americans instead of Christians and Muslims or Whites and Blacks or Protestants and Catholics.

I assumed you were talking about Fass and my statement still stands..I never said I mostly troll-post. Infact, I DONT troll-post...I dont know what he said I said that made you think that.
*shrugs* Alright...I'll take you at your word.

What kind of...wow, just wow.

Alright, little dude-1st The statement was about the protections of the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Now-with your little footstamping hijacking rant, are you implying that it should be abandoned because Jefferson got busy with a slave?

Or that we shouldn't recongnize one of the real geniuses of the constitution, that it recognizes the short comings of those who wrote it?

Frankly, what the fuck is the point of your little tyraid? Did you just come across one of those "Things they didn't teach you in high school history class" books and think you've found a great secret everyone else doesn't know?
Actually, I'm wondering if you read what others write. You, I flat out stated that our founding fathers were hypocrites, and obviously some people disagreed. Then I defended my statement, and you said "well, little dude, I don't like you because I'm not sure what the fuck you're talking about now." Now, speaking to me in a patronizing manner is slightly ridiculous, because I've already shown that YOU don't even know what I'm talking about. Now, demonstrate a *tiny* degree of reason, and tell me why the founding fathers were so great? Because they wrote pretty words? We didn't pioneer the IDEA of democracy, we just took it to a new level and started a world trend. Our founding fathers took control of this country, and ran it as poorly as the king did, or worse. Our leaders still do, regardless of party. Now what were you trying to argue against out of everything I said?


Btw, "little dude" doesn't really apply when you're speaking to combat veterans. I am as patriotic as any American in these forums, but I recognize the bullshit in my country.

*shrugs* Alright...I'll take you at your word.
No, seriously. One thing about me, I dont really lie...even more so straight to someone.

I really dont know why he would have said that, or even why he would have gotten that idea. Maybe he misintepretated something I said, or maybe we were joking around he took something seriously. But I honestly dont know why you would hear that from him. I dont troll-post.

"I believe they are trying to expand their territory,'' he said. "They are bringing Islam in a Christian community.''

Not sure why the OP bolded this part. Ofcourse they are trying to expend their territory and what not. Theye're a religion, they have every right to do so. I understand that a lot of the other stuff they said is pretty bad but if you replaced the guy with a Coke spokesmen who was commenting about the Pepsi brand who had decided to build a Pepsi factory and distribution outlet in a Coke drinking area, then it would just be business as usual and I don't see religions being that different from a business in the supplier/customer sense. I may not like the situation, being a non-religious person but that's how I see it. Maybe I just need more cola.

Luckily enough our founding fathers knew that was total bullshit. If I can convince enough people that people with red hair are a menace and should be shaved and penned, even if I amass that majority, I should rightly be ignored. Becuase even if we all hate coppertops, they still have the same rights as everyone else and a mob cannot take those rights away. If we allowed that kind of behavior liberty and freedom would be thin tissues indeed.
Don't set our founding fathers up on a pedestal. That's what I pointed out. YOU brought them into the discussion. You used them as the basis for a self-righteous tirade, and then I guess you *forgot* about that. This country was founded on principles that the people didn't follow, and that Americans still don't follow. We still cling to our prejudices and inequalities, racial bickerings and hate crimes, so don't preach that garbage when no one is following it.

Actually, I'm wondering if you read what others write. You, I flat out stated that our founding fathers were hypocrites, and obviously some people disagreed. Then I defended my statement, and you said "well, little dude, I don't like you because I'm not sure what the fuck you're talking about now." Now, speaking to me in a patronizing manner is slightly ridiculous, because I've already shown that YOU don't even know what I'm talking about. Now, demonstrate a *tiny* degree of reason, and tell me why the founding fathers were so great? Because they wrote pretty words? We didn't pioneer the IDEA of democracy, we just took it to a new level and started a world trend. Our founding fathers took control of this country, and ran it as poorly as the king did, or worse. Our leaders still do, regardless of party. Now what were you trying to argue against out of everything I said?


Btw, "little dude" doesn't really apply when you're speaking to combat veterans. I am as patriotic as any American in these forums, but I recognize the bullshit in my country.
Look scamper, that has fuck all to do with the post that started your little tyraid. This is what's known as a hijack, because the only reason the founding fathers was mentioned was to indicate that the principle has been part of the country for a long fucking time. I wasn't lionizing the founding fathers but really making a passing reference to it to make the main point about protections of the minority from the majority. That it had to be tuned over the years for glaring blind spots is beside the point at hand, making your little tantrum not all that relevant to the discussion at hand, to wit, even if I made a passing mention of the founding fathers this has more to do with whether we live in a country that allows for the tyranny of the majority or not, not whether or not the founding fathers where bastards or not. Focus.

Wow... I'm only 15 and I can see how dumb they are...

you know, dumb in many cases is used to describe some one with a different opinion then yours. opinions you may call wrong but others call right. im not saying i agree with them, but calling someone dumb because they have a different faith or belief then you is.... dumb.

Not sure why the OP bolded this part. Ofcourse they are trying to expend their territory and what not. Theye're a religion, they have every right to do so. I understand that a lot of the other stuff they said is pretty bad but if you replaced the guy with a Coke spokesmen who was commenting about the Pepsi brand who had decided to build a Pepsi factory and distribution outlet in a Coke drinking area, then it would just be business as usual and I don't see religions being that different from a business in the supplier/customer sense. I may not like the situation, being a non-religious person but that's how I see it. Maybe I just need more cola.
At least the Muslims don't come to your door on a Saturday morning to ask if you've heard the Good Word....

*bangs head against wall thinking of the LDSers*

Don't set our founding fathers up on a pedestal. That's what I pointed out. YOU brought them into the discussion. You used them as the basis for a self-righteous tirade, and then I guess you *forgot* about that. This country was founded on principles that the people didn't follow, and that Americans still don't follow. We still cling to our prejudices and inequalities, racial bickerings and hate crimes, so don't preach that garbage when no one is following it.

I think his point is that we have been able to overcome a lot of tyranny by the majority precisely because of the way our founders set up this country.

at least, thats what I got from it. I didnt see him say that the founders were angelic or anythign to that effect. just that they had the forsight to set up a system where the minority can fight for and win protections.

I could be wrong though.

Now, demonstrate a *tiny* degree of reason, and tell me why the founding fathers were so great? Because they wrote pretty words? We didn't pioneer the IDEA of democracy, we just took it to a new level and started a world trend. Our founding fathers took control of this country, and ran it as poorly as the king did, or worse. Our leaders still do, regardless of party. Now what were you trying to argue against out of everything I said?
I know that wasnt directed at me, but.....
Just? Starting a world trend and taking democracy to a new level (that wasn't theoretical) is a pretty big accomplishment, I'd say. I mean, the Declaration of Independence and Constitution had an enormous effect on history - much greater than the average philosopher/politician/author.

Maybe we did run it as badly as the king, but at least we were running it. Ok, so white landowning males were running it. But it set up the foundation for all of us to run it.

At least the Muslims don't come to your door on a Saturday morning to ask if you've heard the Good Word....

*bangs head against wall thinking of the LDSers*

oy! :fluffle:

my wifes sister is a very devout mormon and has tried repeatedly to get us to go to her church... she sent over some friends to show us a movie about mormonism (they never got to show it to us though :D )... she tries to get us to vote on stuff concerning her churches/faiths concerns. it's so hard to be pleasant to my wifes sister during such times as these.

Don't set our founding fathers up on a pedestal. That's what I pointed out. YOU brought them into the discussion. You used them as the basis for a self-righteous tirade, and then I guess you *forgot* about that. This country was founded on principles that the people didn't follow, and that Americans still don't follow. We still cling to our prejudices and inequalities, racial bickerings and hate crimes, so don't preach that garbage when no one is following it.
Mentioning does not equal putting them on a pedestal, champ. Obviously this is your pocket issue, not relevant to the discussion at hand. You want to have one about thier shortcomings, we'll have it somewhere else.. You'll find I agree. But that has NOTHING to do with the discussion.

Look scamper, that has all of fuck all to do with the post that started your little tyraid. This is what's known as a hijack, because the only reason the founding fathers was mentioned was to indicate that the principle has been part of the country for a long fucking time. I wasn't lionizing the founding fathers but really making a passing reference to it to make the main point about protections of the minority from the majority. That it had to be tuned over the years for glaring blind spots is beside the point at hand, making your little tantrum not all that relevant to the discussion at hand, to wit, even if I made a passing mention of the founding fathers this has more to do with whether we live in a country that allows for the tyranny of the majority or not, not whether or not the founding fathers where bastards or not. Focus.


Why do you persist in acting as if I am younger or less capable of comprehending this discussion than you?

Now follow closely. That *principle* is just words. Words that are officially bullshit, because they aren't practiced. They weren't then. They aren't now. This isn't a *hijack*, you've just failed repeatedly to answer anything I've said, and if you've nothing intelligent left to say, then why keep trying to insult me? That's all you've done, is attempt to anger me. However, I am mature enough to recognize that your pathetic *posturing* (remember that term) is reserved for when you talk to people from hundreds or thousands of miles away, and fail to come up with an intelligent answer for their rebuttals.

Grow up, and come back when you have an ANSWER that doesn't involve you pretending you aren't 16.

I think his point is that we have been able to overcome a lot of tyranny by the majority precisely because of the way our founders set up this country.

at least, thats what I got from it. I didnt see him say that the founders were angelic or anythign to that effect. just that they had the forsight to set up a system where the minority can fight for and win protections.

I could be wrong though.
Pretty much, yeah.

At least the Muslims don't come to your door on a Saturday morning to ask if you've heard the Good Word....

*bangs head against wall thinking of the LDSers*
I first read that and thought you had typed Good Wood. Which is the last thing I need on a Saturday morning.

you know, dumb in many cases is used to describe some one with a different opinion then yours. opinions you may call wrong but others call right. im not saying i agree with them, but calling someone dumb because they have a different faith or belief then you is.... dumb.
I think he was calling the opposition to the building of a place of worship dumb, not the Muslims who wanted to build it.

I think his point is that we have been able to overcome a lot of tyranny by the majority precisely because of the way our founders set up this country.

at least, thats what I got from it. I didnt see him say that the founders were angelic or anythign to that effect. just that they had the forsight to set up a system where the minority can fight for and win protections.

I could be wrong though.
But did WE accomplish anything? What was the state of civil rights until 1960? Did vocal minorities manage to get things done, or did the ruling powers suddenly change their ways? The trend in this country, and elsewhere, is to hang on to all that bigotry in private while pretending to be civilized in public.

Why do you persist in acting as if I am younger or less capable of comprehending this discussion than you?

Now follow closely. That *principle* is just words. Words that are officially bullshit, because they aren't practiced. They weren't then. They aren't now. This isn't a *hijack*, you've just failed repeatedly to answer anything I've said, and if you've nothing intelligent left to say, then why keep trying to insult me? That's all you've done, is attempt to anger me. However, I am mature enough to recognize that your pathetic *posturing* (remember that term) is reserved for when you talk to people from hundreds or thousands of miles away, and fail to come up with an intelligent answer for their rebuttals.

Grow up, and come back when you have an ANSWER that doesn't involve you pretending you aren't 16.
I'm treating you like a spazz because your spazzing over an irrelevant part of a statement because you have a bug up your ass about it. You have a different issue that isn't relevant here and I'm just trying to steer you back on track instead of your rant about what dicks the founding fathers where.

I'm treating you like a spazz because your spazzing over an irrelevant part of a statement because you have a bug up your ass about it. You have a different issue that isn't relevant here and I'm just trying to steer you back on track instead of your rant about what dicks the founding fathers where.
And again you fail. it is a valid point, and you haven't gotten past the fact that it involved the founding fathers. God, you aren't even reading anything, are you? The minorities fight for rights, thats true. But how do they treat other minorities? It's selfish self-interest. Everyone looks out for themselves. it's not some glorious awakening of humanitarian interests, it's simply a rat race where everyone is trying to get ahead. Blacks and women teamed up so they could get rights, but only because they needed more numbers to accomplish the goal. Strategy.

I'm treating you like a spazz because your spazzing over an irrelevant part of a statement because you have a bug up your ass about it. You have a different issue that isn't relevant here and I'm just trying to steer you back on track instead of your rant about what dicks the founding fathers where.
I'm going to say it again. The founding fathers were just part of a larger problem. A problem that encompasses this country in general. We give lip service to principles that we don't follow. Not in our actions, not in our laws, not in our private lives.

And again you fail. it is a valid point, and you haven't gotten past the fact that it involved the founding fathers. God, you aren't even reading anything, are you? The minorities fight for rights, thats true. But how do they treat other minorities? It's selfish self-interest. Everyone looks out for themselves. it's not some glorious awakening of humanitarian interests, it's simply a rat race where everyone is trying to get ahead. Blacks and women teamed up so they could get rights, but only because they needed more numbers to accomplish the goal. Strategy.
Oh for fucks sake...

Alright, Florida Muslim mosque people, pack it up. While you do have a mechanism that protects you, we've fucked it up in the past so it doesn't exist. People have actually had to fight for that defense, so it's all bullshit. Tough luck kids.

I'm going to say it again. The founding fathers were just part of a larger problem. A problem that encompasses this country in general. We give lip service to principles that we don't follow. Not in our actions, not in our laws, not in our private lives.
I think many people follow the principals in their private lives and with thier actions. Granted, we're 230 now, and we are still working at fully achieving the principals, but at least we are on our way their. Blacks weren't the only ones fighting for civil rights, muslims aren't the only ones who feel Islam should be respected. Maybe your right, and I'm naive, but i think we have made significant progress, and continue to do so.

Oh for fucks sake...

Alright, Florida Muslim mosque people, pack it up. While you do have a mechanism that protects you, we've fucked it up in the past so it doesn't exist. People have actually had to fight for that defense, so it's all bullshit. Tough luck kids.
Try to phrase your responses in a clear and concise manner. We didn't just fuck it up in the past, we are fucking it up now as well. That process continues. You see, that black community is protesting out of plain prejudice. They made that clear. However, that mosque, as wonderful as it might be, arguably could be damaging to the area, in that it might be a tremendous waste of space that could be better used. After all, if the area has such a strong christian backing, what good will a mosque be? Radical christians will not convert, and it will lead to more problems. And I have no doubts that members of that mosque will respond in like fashion. This whole situation is being forced into a huge conflagration by all these people preaching about rights while forgetting common sense.

Try to phrase your responses in a clear and concise manner. We didn't just fuck it up in the past, we are fucking it up now as well. That process continues. You see, that black community is protesting out of plain prejudice. They made that clear. However, that mosque, as wonderful as it might be, arguably could be damaging to the area, in that it might be a tremendous waste of space that could be better used. After all, if the area has such a strong christian backing, what good will a mosque be? Radical christians will not convert, and it will lead to more problems. And I have no doubts that members of that mosque will respond in like fashion. This whole situation is being forced into a huge conflagration by all these people preaching about rights while forgetting common sense.
Well, first, it was 60 people. The mosque will serve the population that is muslim or might become muslim. They deserve a church as much as the christians do. If the christians cause trouble with the mosque in that community then it's on the christians and not the mosque. In the same way that if I threaten to go sick-house on people if they open a Cold Stone down the street is my repsonsability and not the responsability of the Cold Stone even though I believe making the clerks sing for tips belittles them and the tipper.

Try to phrase your responses in a clear and concise manner. We didn't just fuck it up in the past, we are fucking it up now as well. That process continues. You see, that black community is protesting out of plain prejudice. They made that clear. However, that mosque, as wonderful as it might be, arguably could be damaging to the area, in that it might be a tremendous waste of space that could be better used. After all, if the area has such a strong christian backing, what good will a mosque be? Radical christians will not convert, and it will lead to more problems. And I have no doubts that members of that mosque will respond in like fashion. This whole situation is being forced into a huge conflagration by all these people preaching about rights while forgetting common sense.

The article said only 60 people were at the protest. And I doubt the Christians are funding the mosque. There must be some Muslim population there to support the financial duties of building a mosque anyway.

Perhaps the space could be better used, but a mosque is hardly detrimental to the community. Its not as though they tore down a family business to build there.

The article said only 60 people were at the protest. And I doubt the Christians are funding the mosque. There must be some Muslim population there to support the financial duties of building a mosque anyway.

Perhaps the space could be better used, but a mosque is hardly detrimental to the community. Its not as though they tore down a family business to build there.
Even if they did, it's well known that many family businesses are just fronts for child poisoning organisations.

I'm not claiming the mosque is at fault, I'm simply pointing out that pushing ahead in a hostile environment in mutually disadvantageous. In other words, the Mosque could probably find a location within 20 miles that wouldn't be met with such bull-headed opposition. Simple common sense, avoid the troublemakers, don't agitate them more, because they will probably do something stupid. Now, is proving a point really worth risking people getting hurt or killed? I think there is a way to avoid a confrontation, and it simply involves avoiding the most ignorant people. And if 60 showed up, I'm sure there are a few hundred more who agree with them. I don't march against everything I disagree with.

I'm not claiming the mosque is at fault, I'm simply pointing out that pushing ahead in a hostile environment in mutually disadvantageous. In other words, the Mosque could probably find a location within 20 miles that wouldn't be met with such bull-headed opposition. Simple common sense, avoid the troublemakers, don't agitate them more, because they will probably do something stupid. Now, is proving a point really worth risking people getting hurt or killed? I think there is a way to avoid a confrontation, and it simply involves avoiding the most ignorant people. And if 60 showed up, I'm sure there are a few hundred more who agree with them. I don't march against everything I disagree with.
And Rosa Parks could have walked or gone to the back of the bus and avoided all that hassle...

And Rosa Parks could have walked or gone to the back of the bus and avoided all that hassle...
Slightly different situation. Lets not pretend Muslims don't have equal rights in this country. Don't overdramatize the dispute.

And Rosa Parks could have walked or gone to the back of the bus and avoided all that hassle...
You can't be walking to work when you have a 24,000 square foot Mosque to build!

Slightly different situation. Lets not pretend Muslims don't have equal rights in this country. Don't overdramatize the dispute.
Sorry Bob, but if they can't build a church in that community becuase some christians get uptight, then they don't.

Sorry Bob, but if they can't build a church in that community becuase some christians get uptight, then they don't.
Sigh.

Nobody said they couldn't. THEY should make the intelligent decision to work around the troublemakers. That is what I would do, unless given government permission to destroy them;) . See, instead of being a hardheaded confrontationalist, which is really easy when sitting at a computer, think about actually being there.

Sigh.

Nobody said they couldn't. THEY should make the intelligent decision to work around the troublemakers. That is what I would do, unless given government permission to destroy them;) . See, instead of being a hardheaded confrontationalist, which is really easy when sitting at a computer, think about actually being there.
And when they go to the next community and some christians get uptight there? And the next? The next? And what of the muslims in that community that the mosque would serve that have to drive 20 miles out or more because some christians have a stick up thier ass? Perhaps blacks shouldn't go to white schools because it might cause problems so what's the big deal if they just stay in thier place. Sorry, no deal.

And the chritians that are trying to block the building are saying they can't.

And when they go to the next community and some christians get uptight there? And the next? The next? And what of the muslims in that community that the mosque would serve that have to drive 20 miles out or more because some christians have a stick up thier ass? Perhaps blacks shouldn't go to white schools because it might cause problems so what's the big deal if they just stay in thier place. Sorry, no deal.
So now you think all christians are going to protest a mosque? Does that happen everywhere? Because I'm a Christian, and that sounds fairly prejudicial. And what about the Muslims that would have had to drive 20 miles to the mosque if they built it in the first location? After all, I drive 15 miles to church, assuming I go.

You keep trying to turn this into a huge civil rights ordeal, when its really just a matter of sidestepping a few bigots. Unless now you've decided all christians protest mosques. Quit trying to up the ante, you know its not a new civil rights movement.

Building permits aren't really the same as zoning, and zoning is what determines what can be built where, permits just dictate how you go about it. (Guess who else was raised by a developer).

If the area is zoned to allow a place of worship then that's what can go there. I don't know if they had to petition to get the area re-zoned, which can be a pain in the ass (think of the climax of every 80s movie based on a trend where the kids show up to that meeting with signs and breakdancers, that's a zoning meeting.)
I know what a bitch thoes can be when we had to sell the farm the township was only allowing A40+ or possibly R40 and the county said 40 or bigger was worthless so they were only aproving R1-R5

What a nightmare took almost 4 years to get it sorted

So now you think all christians are going to protest a mosque? Does that happen everywhere? Because I'm a Christian, and that sounds fairly prejudicial. And what about the Muslims that would have had to drive 20 miles to the mosque if they built it in the first location? After all, I drive 15 miles to church, assuming I go.

You keep trying to turn this into a huge civil rights ordeal, when its really just a matter of sidestepping a few bigots. Unless now you've decided all christians protest mosques. Quit trying to up the ante, you know its not a new civil rights movement.
Quit trying to pretend it isn't. They have a right to build that mosque and to circumvent it with burning effigies, legal wranglings, or polite requests to 'be reasonable, people don't like your kind-you understand...' is still a removal of their civil rights, no matter how you spin it.

So now you think all christians are going to protest a mosque? Does that happen everywhere? Because I'm a Christian, and that sounds fairly prejudicial. And what about the Muslims that would have had to drive 20 miles to the mosque if they built it in the first location? After all, I drive 15 miles to church, assuming I go.

You keep trying to turn this into a huge civil rights ordeal, when its really just a matter of sidestepping a few bigots. Unless now you've decided all christians protest mosques. Quit trying to up the ante, you know its not a new civil rights movement.
Why should they have to sidestep thoes biggots? personaly if I were them I would be making a stand that shows biggotry is not going to disuade them.

I know what a bitch thoes can be when we had to sell the farm the township was only allowing A40+ or possibly R40 and the county said 40 or bigger was worthless so they were only aproving R1-R5

What a nightmare took almost 4 years to get it sorted
One of the thousands of reasons I never followed in my father's footsteps. Not that the path I chose is a rain of funds and lack of frustrations...

Quit trying to pretend it isn't. They have a right to build that mosque and to circumvent it with burning effigies, legal wranglings, or polite requests to 'be reasonable, people don't like your kind-you understand...' is still a removal of their civil rights, no matter how you spin it.
Are they actually being stopped from building? If not, then none of their rights are being kept from them.

Quit trying to pretend it isn't. They have a right to build that church and to circumvent it with burning effegees, legal wranglings, or polite requests to 'be reasonable, people don't like your kind-you understand...' is still a removal of thier civil rights, no matter how you spin it.
OH NO!
Our civil rights are impeded every day. Sometime, you just have to be smarter and work around idiots. I do it in the military, I do it in the normal world, and so Muslims can do it to. After all, I have to watch what I say and do or be arrested and detained as a terrorist, even if I think it was a innocous action that harms no one. I know that is kind of moving off on a tangent, but surely you see that we give up rights every day, out of respect for the greater good and avoiding needless confrontation. Surely this is no different. We can't press Christianity is Muslim countries like this. Why is it that we can avoid confrontation, but any *perceived* minority, since Islam is hardly a minority in the US or the world, must be bowed to? Why not do it the easy way and save trouble while still accomplishing your ends?

Are they actually being stopped from building? If not, then none of their rights are being kept from them.
The attempt is being made, the argument is against the attempt.

OH NO!
Our civil rights are impeded every day. Sometime, you just have to be smarter and work around idiots. I do it in the military, I do it in the normal world, and so Muslims can do it to. After all, I have to watch what I say and do or be arrested and detained as a terrorist, even if I think it was a innocous action that harms no one. I know that is kind of moving off on a tangent, but surely you see that we give up rights every day, out of respect for the greater good and avoiding needless confrontation. Surely this is no different. We can't press Christianity is Muslim countries like this. Why is it that we can avoid confrontation, but any *perceived* minority, since Islam is hardly a minority in the US or the world, must be bowed to? Why not do it the easy way and save trouble while still accomplishing your ends?
Because Muslims countries treat Christians badly is not an excuse to do it here. Why is it the Muslims that are being bowed to when they're trying to do what any christian church would do, build a place of worship. They're not asking to be 'bowed to' it's the christians-and I fail to see why we should bow to them.