NationStates Jolt Archive

Why do people pray, especially for physical things like shoelaces, cures for diseases and World Peace?

Wouldn't it be more direct to actually get things done?

Why do people pray, especially for physical things like shoelaces, diseases and World Peace?

Wouldn't it be more direct to actually get things done?
Because shoelaces suffer... oh how they suffer...

Wouldn't it be more direct to actually get things done?

There are plenty of people who both pray AND get things done. Whether they think prayer helps the process is immaterial.

There are plenty of people who both pray AND get things done. Whether they think prayer helps the process is immaterial.I don't think plenty is the word you were looking for. A fraction of a fraction perhaps.

I think it's even stranger how plenty of people teach their kids that praying for world peace & whatnot, is essential, but utterly ignore to teach their kids that actions speak louder than words. Hypocricy at it's finest, methinks.

I don't think plenty is the word you were looking for. A fraction of a fraction perhaps.

I think it's even stranger how plenty of people teach their kids that praying for world peace & whatnot, is essential, but utterly ignore to teach their kids that actions speak louder than words. Hypocricy at it's finest, methinks.

Of those that I know who do charity work (real charity work), the number is100%. I'd say plenty.

There are plenty of people who both pray AND get things done. Whether they think prayer helps the process is immaterial.

I don't think it's immaterial. I think it's crucial. If prayer helps the process it should be done. If it has no effect it should be stopped.

The effects of prayer can be evaluated in the same way like the effects of any physical action. If the effects of prayer can never be determined (because this annoys God or something) then nobody should pray, since they can never be sure what effects come out of it.

I don't think plenty is the word you were looking for. A fraction of a fraction perhaps.

I think it's even stranger how plenty of people teach their kids that praying for world peace & whatnot, is essential, but utterly ignore to teach their kids that actions speak louder than words. Hypocricy at it's finest, methinks.
Or laziness? Once you've prayed and done "your bit for society" you can forget about it and get on with what concerns you... *still thinking of the poor defenceless shoelaces...*

I don't think plenty is the word you were looking for. A fraction of a fraction perhaps.

I think it's even stranger how plenty of people teach their kids that praying for world peace & whatnot, is essential, but utterly ignore to teach their kids that actions speak louder than words. Hypocricy at it's finest, methinks.

I agree, except to be really picky words is also a form of action. A power form of action in many situations like courtroom for example.

I don't think it's immaterial. I think it's crucial. If prayer helps the process it should be done. If it has no effect it should be stopped.

The effects of prayer can be evaluated in the same way like the effects of any physical action. If the effects of prayer can never be determined (because this annoys God or something) then nobody should pray, since they can never be sure what effects come out of it.

If the benefit or non-benefit of prayer cannot be proved.. then no one should pray? That doesn't make sense considering countless biblical injunctions to pray. People who pray generally have some religious reason for doing it.

...The effects of prayer can be evaluated in the same way like the effects of any physical action. If the effects of prayer can never be determined (because this annoys God or something) then nobody should pray, since they can never be sure what effects come out of it.
People should do whatever they want. Why does the effect matter? And who's gonna stop people praying anyway?

Now, I'm probably the most militant atheist on this forum, but I'm also the first to light a candle when someone I know is in harm's way.

If the benefit or non-benefit of prayer cannot be proved.. then no one should pray?

Yes. Should I walk around in circles, chant loudly and rub my face in a certain way in public if it doesn't give me shoelaces?

That doesn't make sense considering countless biblical injunctions to pray. People who pray generally have some religious reason for doing it.

I'm interested in people who pray for physical things. So if people have a religious reason to pray, do they expect physical effects to result? If they don't dare to "expect" anything, since that would be "testing" God, why pray?
It could be bad for your eternal soul.

...I'm interested in people who pray for physical things. So if people have a religious reason to pray, do they expect physical effects to result? If they don't dare to "expect" anything, since that would be "testing" God, why pray?
It could be bad for your eternal soul.
What exactly do you mean by "physical things", do you mean personal material gain, or just anything that would have a measurable effect?

Now, I'm probably the most militant atheist on this forum, but I'm also the first to light a candle when someone I know is in harm's way.

And the purpose of your gesture is to calm yourself? Or that the candle alters the fabric of the Matrix to save the special someone?

Btw I have no bone against people quietly wishing people the best when trouble strikes. It is a a good social behavior. I don't understand people who advertise the power of prayer, organized prayer sessions and so on.

What exactly do you mean by "physical things", do you mean personal material gain, or just anything that would have a measurable effect?

Yes, physical measurable effects.

Reminds me of the recent study (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?ex=1301461200&en=4acf338be4900000&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)...


Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

...

The moral: only pray for people you don't like. :D

Why do people pray, especially for physical things like shoelaces, cures for diseases and World Peace?

Wouldn't it be more direct to actually get things done?
I've pondered this question myself, many times. I'm always left with the conclusion that even if one assumes God really exists, there's still no reason to pray.

As near as I can tell, there are four basic types of prayers (or "P-mail") that we humans send up: Thanks, Gimme, Oops, and Wow. Thanks are saying cheers to God for an already-received blessing, Gimmes ask for some new blessing, Oops express regret and penitence for a sin or mistake of some kind, and Wow is general awe at how groovy a chap God is.

The way I see it, the only way any of these prayers can make less sense than they do without God is if one DOES believe in God. After all, if God has "a plan," or if God is all-knowing, then everything that is going to happen is already known to him. He's already decided what he will do, so "Gimmes" are pointless because he will just ignore them if they don't correspond to his plan; indeed, if he DID grant one that went against his original idea then he would be logically disproving his own all-knowingness. Thanks are likewise irrelevant, because he didn't do anything other than what he was planning on all along, and so he wasn't doing it for you anyway. Oops don't matter because he knew that you were going to mess up and already decided whether or not he was going to forgive you, and anyhow his all-knowingness already is aware of how sorry you are (or are not). Wow is the only one that might have merit, but since he already knows how impressed you are (by definition of omniscience) then why bother to pray it to him? He's aware of how cool he is, and, being all-powerful, doesn't need validation from one of his creations.

Yes. Should I walk around in circles, chant loudly and rub my face in a certain way in public if it doesn't give me shoelaces?


Your own personal experiences should provide you with a mountain of evidence that doing that won't work.

Surely if god knows everything, then he has already decided the outcome. Why would he change his mind because of prayer?

Your own personal experiences should provide you with a mountain of evidence that doing that won't work.

Not that I have ever tried to walk in circles, chant loudly or rub my face ritualistically. Yet.

But seriously, you are saying that your prayers get answered often? I tried to pray to get a glass to move across a table. It didn't work. So I walked up and picked up the glass and moved it across a table. Not only was this direct action easier, it always works. Whether you prayed or not.

And the purpose of your gesture is to calm yourself? Or that the candle alters the fabric of the Matrix to save the special someone?Snide is a colour that only suits Fass

Btw I have no bone against people quietly wishing people the best when trouble strikes. It is a a good social behavior. I don't understand people who advertise the power of prayer, organized prayer sessions and so on. I like the implication I advertise the power of prayer, or organise prayer sessions, which makes perfect sense, given I have previously stated I am an atheist who quietly performs private acts of kindness.

I've pondered this question myself, many times. I'm always left with the conclusion that even if one assumes God really exists, there's still no reason to pray.

As near as I can tell, there are four basic types of prayers (or "P-mail") that we humans send up: Thanks, Gimme, Oops, and Wow. Thanks are saying cheers to God for an already-received blessing, Gimmes ask for some new blessing, Oops express regret and penitence for a sin or mistake of some kind, and Wow is general awe at how groovy a chap God is.

The way I see it, the only way any of these prayers can make less sense than they do without God is if one DOES believe in God. After all, if God has "a plan," or if God is all-knowing, then everything that is going to happen is already known to him. He's already decided what he will do, so "Gimmes" are pointless because he will just ignore them if they don't correspond to his plan; indeed, if he DID grant one that went against his original idea then he would be logically disproving his own all-knowingness. Thanks are likewise irrelevant, because he didn't do anything other than what he was planning on all along, and so he wasn't doing it for you anyway. Oops don't matter because he knew that you were going to mess up and already decided whether or not he was going to forgive you, and anyhow his all-knowingness already is aware of how sorry you are (or are not). Wow is the only one that might have merit, but since he already knows how impressed you are (by definition of omniscience) then why bother to pray it to him? He's aware of how cool he is, and, being all-powerful, doesn't need validation from one of his creations.

The most parsimonious explanation is that personal empowerment is an important aspect of human social evolution. Which of course I don't need to convince you. :)

For those that pray often to demand physical things, be it selfish and altruistic, do they try to find out how they can help directly? If all they do is pray, they'd better find out that it works, else it looks at best futility and at worse hypocrisy.

Snide is a colour that only suits Fass

I like the implication I advertise the power of prayer, or organise prayer sessions, which makes perfect sense, given I have previously stated I am an atheist who quietly performs private acts of kindness.

You've misunderstood my tone. I apologise if I sounded pushy.

Still I don't understand what you mean by private acts of kindness. (unless you mean it in the Lunatic Goofballs way).

Not that I have ever tried to walk in circles, chant loudly or rub my face ritualistically. Yet.

But seriously, you are saying that your prayers get answered often? I tried to pray to get a glass to move across a table. It didn't work. So I walked up and picked up the glass and moved it across a table. Not only was this direct action easier, it always works. Whether you prayed or not.

I don't pray, personally. I know that it does have a therapeutic effect on some people either way. Whether it gets results I have no idea, but it does have social benefits and is called for by various religions. In that context, I wouldn't tell someone to stop absent proof that it won't work for them.

I suppose it comes down to one's additude towards prayer as to wether or not it's beneficial in one's life. Basically, it's a matter of forming intent: this is what I would like to see happen. If it happens, great, one appreciates it and is encouraged to form greater intentions and if it doesn't, one reexamines what one is intending to accomplish.

I've often heard motivational speakers ask the question "If you could do anything knowing that you could not fail, what would it be?" Really, the only way to fail at anything is to stop trying, but if having an all-powerful buddy in the sky is what gives you the courage to go out and experience life, then go for it.

If god has a plan then praying is useless because he's not going to change something unless it's already in his plan.

You've misunderstood my tone. I apologise if I sounded pushy.

Still I don't understand what you mean by private acts of kindness. (unless you mean it in the Lunatic Goofballs way).
I'd never mention that I went into the back room of the chapel beside St Stephen to light a candle, where no-one will see it

If god has a plan then praying is useless because he's not going to change something unless it's already in his plan.
Let's say, for fun's sake - that god's "plan" allots the integrity of "free will" - which would decide even what happens to "god" ... ?

Although i really appreciate this post,
Beautiful Lisa's, and
Cromatar's.

*stands up*

"Hi my name is smunkee and I pray"

oh, this isn't one of those meeting is it?

I don't pray for physical things. I pray for wisdom, peace, patience, humility, and the chance to use all those things to help someone in need that day.

I never did understand the prayers that my grandma used to say though

"if it's in your will God please heal so and so, and if not we will know it was her time to go, your will be done"

did she actually think that God wanted to know whether it was okay with her if He healed someone or not? and what's the deal with asking if you don't expect it to work out? that would be like me going in to the bank to cash a check "I need that in $20's although if you don't want to give me my money I am fine with that too, whatever you want"

:p

Prayer is a sort of my personal communion with God. It's the time that I dedicate to thinking about God's work, what I have done to reflect that, and how I could do better.

If god has a plan then praying is useless because he's not going to change something unless it's already in his plan.

Unless if you know what that plan is, I wouldn't say that.

Unless if you know what that plan is, I wouldn't say that.
That, of course, would be the beauty of all those abominable religious texts written with "his/her" spirit, by humans. < or >, anyway .... it's all written out. No reason to implore anything, really. You know, shepards and the like.

I'll tell it as I was tought. It's a spiritual war, between God and the Devil, God has power, but gave the Devil and humans dominion over the Earth. He doesn't mess with it unless a human/humans ask him to do so (I.E. mess with their dominion). Think of it like the U.S. respecting say... the Bahamas' borders. They don't have to, if we wanted to we could invade, but we don't out of respect. Same with God, he gave us and the Devil control over Earth. If he wanted to, he could violate that, but he doesn't. Hence why people say "Your will be done" because he is omnipotent, and knows better then us, but wants our permission. And when the time is right, he will gather his army and attack Satan and his followers and the less powerful side will be destroyed. (We don't know what side, hence the purpose of faith, the end of revelation was tacked on to make us feel better.) Did that make sense?

I'll tell it as I was tought. It's a spiritual war, between God and the Devil, God has power, but gave the Devil and humans dominion over the Earth. He doesn't mess with it unless a human/humans ask him to do so (I.E. mess with their dominion). Think of it like the U.S. respecting say... the Bahamas' borders. They don't have to, if we wanted to we could invade, but we don't out of respect. Same with God, he gave us and the Devil control over Earth. If he wanted to, he could violate that, but he doesn't. Hence why people say "Your will be done" because he is omnipotent, and knows better then us, but wants our permission. And when the time is right, he will gather his army and attack Satan and his followers and the less powerful side will be destroyed. (We don't know what side, hence the purpose of faith, the end of revelation was tacked on to make us feel better.) Did that make sense?
It makes sense in a Cliffs' Notes kind of sense.

What some call the power of prayer I call the power of positive thinking.

What some call the power of prayer I call the power of positive thinking.
The funny thing is that in any of the public health polls we do in our stats department for our servey department the religous effect shows up at about the same rate as the placibo effect lol

What some call the power of prayer I call the power of positive thinking.
To some, definitely an empowerment.