NationStates Jolt Archive

I recently found out that up to a third of high school students drop out of school. Not only are they ruining their own life’s by dropping out, they are also ruining the smart students' chances at getting into a good college. It's basic math that these insensitive drop outs don't understand. If there are less students in school, then less people will be in the top 5% of their school, and that top 5% of the school is a very coveted place to be, because top universities love that top 5%.


What do you think?

What do you think?
Take more math.

I recently found out that up to a third of high school students drop out of school. Not only are they ruining their own life’s by dropping out, they are also ruining the smart students' chances at getting into a good college. It's basic math that these insensitive drop outs don't understand. If there are less students in school, then less people will be in the top 5% of their school, and that top 5% of the school is a very coveted place to be, because top universities love that top 5%.


What do you think?

That's pretty much on the mark, yeah.

Right now, it also helps if you're male: most universities are heavily leaning female these days.

I think the system is stupid and needs an overhaul.

I recently found out that up to a third of high school students drop out of school. Not only are they ruining their own life’s by dropping out, they are also ruining the smart students' chances at getting into a good college. It's basic math that these insensitive drop outs don't understand. If there are less students in school, then less people will be in the top 5% of their school, and that top 5% of the school is a very coveted place to be, because top universities love that top 5%.


What do you think?
that's a very self-centred and uncompassionate way of seeing things is what i think.


my own experience with dropping out and talking to other students (at uni) was generally the feeling that we were being put throug a meat grinder and, what with 40% of UK students going to uni (to study fucking woodwork or media studies), that we as individuals had no say and didn't matter to anyone. there were very high degrees of disillusionment amongst me and my freinds regarding actually caring about exams any more (having had to sit so many, two big sets a year, in the previous 5 years or so) and it all felt so pointless.

that's this student's view of high dropout rates. i advise any student going to uni to take a year out first to assess your priorities and make sure that going to uni, or studying that particular course, is actually what you want to do :)

For the most part, I don't believe people randomly drop out without thinking hard about it. In fact, according to figures, a big reason for dropping out is financial (personal can be another). I have had cause to think about dropping out due to financial reasons, and came very close to it, but I will keep going. God has looked after me. As for personal reasons, someone might be having health problems, they might be having family problems, they might have depression (yes, I know it's a health problem, but some people don't think it can really cause suffering - I've experienced it, it certainly can), they might have any one of any number of reasons for dropping out, so it is YOU who is acting insensitively in your above post. And just so you know, it doesn't ruin people's lives. For some, maybe. But for some, it makes things better, and even if it doesn't, there are other ways of people getting to do the subject they enjoy, whether that's starting university again at a later date (paying with their own money perhaps) or taking a different route.

I have no time for dropouts.

Shows a lack of character in my book.

...i advise any student going to uni to take a year out first to assess your priorities and make sure that going to uni, or studying that particular course, is actually what you want to do :)

That is pretty much what my previous Personal Tutor suggested when I decided to change course - she is a big advocate of gap years.

I think the system is stupid and needs an overhaul.I agree. Start with making it so that getting an education actually matters.

I have no time for dropouts.

Shows a lack of character in my book.

Then you look selfish and ignorant in mine.

I recently found out that up to a third of high school students drop out of school. Not only are they ruining their own life’s by dropping out, they are also ruining the smart students' chances at getting into a good college. It's basic math that these insensitive drop outs don't understand. If there are less students in school, then less people will be in the top 5% of their school, and that top 5% of the school is a very coveted place to be, because top universities love that top 5%.


What do you think?
I think you should drop out.

Then you look selfish and ignorant in mine.
I mean drop out by choice, not by necessity. I have no problem with those unable to complete it, otherwise you are essentially draining society (as a whole) of your potential and gifts.

If you start something you should finish it.

Most colleges use ACT or SAT scores over placement in the class.

What drop outs are doing to society is denying it the benefits of a productive citizen. The more education the more tax paid and less tax used.

I really would like to know where the heads of these drop outs are. Do they unscrew them and scrape out the brains? I hear that they are saying that they can get a slightly over minimum job and the money seems better than school. If this is true it seems very short sighted. When someone is giving you a free investment like education there doesn't seem like any reason to turn it down. The military won't even take a drop out anymore. Where do these people see themselves in 5 or 10 years?

I mean drop out by choice, not by necessity. I have no problem with those unable to complete it, otherwise you are essentially draining society (as a whole) of your potential and gifts.

If you start something you should finish it.If society isn't paying for the person to go to school then why should the person in question care whether or not society is benefitting from their education? If society is paying for the person to go to school, then they should make it so that not only is the education actually going to get the person somewhere, but that the school environment is conducive to learning (which would mostly be taken care of by doing the first thing).

I wonder if making schooling better at teaching job skills would help at this any. I have heard of one school that even went so far as to give children an associates degree upon graduation. Of course, we have to look at financial feasability but if students recognize a benefit to what they are learning and see that the skills are useful then they might be more willing to put up with the entire package. Of course, that is just a thought but we must remember that education can be the key to better financial success.

I am a student right now and the pressure is always on because of the very overated testing at the end of the year the teachers even disagree with it its the morons in the govt right now that think students need to take tests to pass. But I dont plan on dropping out at all I dont see why anyone would I want to go to film school to become a director and I intend on doing that

If society isn't paying for the person to go to school then why should the person in question care whether or not society is benefitting from their education?
Fair enough. I'm coming at it from a different society- all education, from first level to third level, is paid for by the State (i.e. free education for all)

If society is paying for the person to go to school, then they should make it so that not only is the education actually going to get the person somewhere, but that the school environment is conducive to learning (which would mostly be taken care of by doing the first thing).

Pretty much yes. Again, different society. Everyone is speaking from their own perspective- mine is from one where the places (and therefore the degrees) are there waiting to be taken. Not taking one and sitting on your ass looking for handouts instead, in my book, shows a flawed character.

Fair enough. I'm coming at it from a different society- all education, from first level to third level, is paid for by the State (i.e. free education for all)Ah, how lovely that would be.

Pretty much yes. Again, different society. Everyone is speaking from their own perspective- mine is from one where the places (and therefore the degrees) are there waiting to be taken. Not taking one and sitting on your ass looking for handouts instead, in my book, shows a flawed character.But in your society does getting the degree actually help a person to get the job nearly all of the time? Or are employers there more concerned with experience?

I mean drop out by choice, not by necessity. I have no problem with those unable to complete it, otherwise you are essentially draining society (as a whole) of your potential and gifts.
See, I want to finish school so I can cause as much damage as possible to my fellow man. Society don't deserve shit. But maybe that's just me.

Ah, how lovely that would be.
It is quite nice. :)

But in your society does getting the degree actually help a person to get the job nearly all of the time? Or are employers there more concerned with experience?

Considering we need 30,000 new workers every month to sustain the massive growth of our economy, and our unemployment level is now the lowest in the European Union (4.2/4.3%), yes, there is no shortage of work. (This also includes Engineers, Nurses, Teachers, Scienctists, general International banking stuff, law etc etc).

Hence my personal dislike of refusing to give back to a burgeoning society, when its free.

I recently found out that up to a third of high school students drop out of school. Not only are they ruining their own life’s by dropping out, they are also ruining the smart students' chances at getting into a good college. It's basic math that these insensitive drop outs don't understand. If there are less students in school, then less people will be in the top 5% of their school, and that top 5% of the school is a very coveted place to be, because top universities love that top 5%.


What do you think?
I think there will always be a top 5%. Take more math.

I think the system is stupid and needs an overhaul.
I have to agree, we might as well give bush the :upyours:

I think there will always be a top 5%. Take more math.
His concern has some validity. There will always be a top 5%. However, a top 5% in a school with 300 students is larger than a top 5% in a class with 200 students. The difference is 5 people which can make a lot of difference if you are already close to the top 5%. However, what is not being accounted for is the increased competition for limited spots that a bigger top 5% would create. That might make it so that instead of top 5% it is top 3% or something that colleges look at. Pretty much he just wants more people at the bottom just to inflate the top 5%.

Wow, this OP nearly drove me nuts.

It sounded self-centered to a cartoon extreme.

However, I'm reading through the whole thread, and I think that it's not so much a question of insensitivity as it is brevity. The poster didn't quite reveal all details of how they felt in the OP, so it came off sounding kind of rough.

Most of the kids I know who "drop out" don't actually "drop out". They actually just sort of disappear off the map. It's not even so much a process of quitting school, as that would imply somebody has a record of them actually going through the process of "quitting".

These are high- and middle-school kids I'm talking about, of course. I've now, in the course of perma-subbing at middle-schools for a year, seen two examples of "eighth-grade dropout".

In both cases, I can assure New Foxxinia that "depriving the top 5% of their most coveted colleges" was the last thing on these kids' minds.

Similarly, in the case of the junior and senior HS kids, they were not thinking about anyone's big picture, or their part in a cumulative effect on society as a whole.

Because in none of these cases, did any of these kids feel that they were actually part of "society". In every example, they were, to say the least, as marginalized as one could get. In the HS examples that I best remember, both guys were about 17, completely illiterate, and clearly terribly ashamed and afraid of who would find out. I only knwe because I am terribly nosy and happen to home in on reading capabilities (or lack thereof) almost instinctively.

When I brought these gentlemens' predicament to the attention of a couple senior staff, I got a grey wall. As far as they were concerned, these guys were lost. Any attempt to try to help them would be met with all of the fear and hate that these kids could muster, supposedly. Supposedly, these kids would bolt. The only reason either was still at school, is because it was safer than their homes. That, and they got a free meal.

I talked to one kid at a bus stop while we were both waiting for the X4 line. I hinted that I knew about what was (not) going on.

He was a friendly kid for the most part in class, but right about then, I got to see the side of him he showed when he thought someone was trying to make him look weak.

Needless to say, I didn't make any headway talking to him.

The next time I got reassigned to that school, both he and the other guy were gone. They were 17, and there was really nothing they felt they could get out of school (I guess). In the case of the guy I talked to, nobody knew where he had gone, and the number the main office had for where he lived had been disconnected for weeks. Nobody, supposedly, knew where his mom was either.

Two words like "drop out" don't really convey the fucked-upness of the situation sometimes.

I have to agree, we might as well give bush the :upyours:

Thank goodness you jumped in!
A thread almost went 2 pages without mentioning the President of the United States!!

:rolleyes:

Thank goodness you jumped in!
A thread almost went 2 pages without mentioning the President of the United States!!
:rolleyes:

Yeah, let's all remember, the No Child Left Behind craziness is very ....uh...controversial, and its... efffects... on the public school systems have yet to be ascertained.

But the Bush administration's reductionist logic concerning education and testing is only the most recent development in a LONG line of similar and increasingly suspect movements.

If we're gonna blame Bush, we've got a whole bunch of presidents to blame before him.

Yeah, let's all remember, the No Child Left Behind craziness is very ....uh...controversial, and its... efffects... on the public school systems have yet to be ascertained.

But the Bush administration's reductionist logic concerning education and testing is only the most recent development in a LONG line of similar and increasingly suspect movements.

If we're gonna blame Bush, we've got a whole bunch of presidents to blame before him.

Not just that. We need to abolish the Department of Education. 30 years and nothing to show for it. Even NASA has done better than that!

I dont care about dropouts. SOMEONE HAS TO PUMP MY GAS!!!

I dont care about dropouts. SOMEONE HAS TO PUMP MY GAS!!!

You still have full service stations? Luxury!

That's pretty much on the mark, yeah.

Right now, it also helps if you're male: most universities are heavily leaning female these days.

it seems to help if your anything but white, healthy, male, middle class. thanks to programs like affirmative action

but hey, i guess i opressed minorities for many years. so they get a chance before me.

i dont have any dissabilities that will make the school insensitive for not accepting me.

i guess i have also opressed females for many years so they also get in front of me.

im not living in poverty so no one is interested in paying my school for me

it seems to help if your anything but white, healthy, male, middle class. thanks to programs like affirmative action

but hey, i guess i opressed minorities for many years. so they get a chance before me.

i dont have any dissabilities that will make the school insensitive for not accepting me.

i guess i have also opressed females for many years so they also get in front of me.

im not living in poverty so no one is interested in paying my school for me

Crap, I'm white, healthy, male, AND middle class! And I've got a 2.3! Crap!

Oh wait, I don't plan on going to college. Nevermind.

Crap, I'm white, healthy, male, AND middle class! And I've got a 2.3! Crap!

Oh wait, I don't plan on going to college. Nevermind.

unless you have a plan of some sort that you are certain will go through. you probably wont be middle class for long if you dont go to school

unless you have a plan of some sort that you are certain will go through. you probably wont be middle class for long if you dont go to school

I plan on being a writer.

I plan on being a writer.
Oh, that sounds like a rock solid plan.

Oh, that sounds like a rock solid plan.

I've been told I'm a very funny and very good writer.

I've been told I'm a very funny and very good writer.

It's always wise to have a fallback plan. Plus, colleges often have a lot more resources for writers that make it easier for them to get started; from the actual education to the publishing resources and organizations, college has a lot to offer if you're looking in to doing writing as a serious career. Plus, a day job will help smooth out your income and will provide much needed cash if your career doesn't take off right away.

Good luck, but you should definitely consider college or some kind of higher education if you can afford it. Studying literature and the humanities at those levels will flesh out your skills a lot.

I've been told I'm a very funny and very good writer.

if a complete stranger may offer you advice.

i would like to say that perhaps college wouldnt be a bad thing for you to do. even an associates from your local community college is better then nothing. you sound interested in writting and there are ussually degrees at most colleges for writting. if your whole writting thing doesnt work out then your options are open to get a job doing something else. many places it does not matter what you have a degree for but just that you have a degree.

It's always wise to have a fallback plan. Plus, colleges often have a lot more resources for writers that make it easier for them to get started; from the actual education to the publishing resources and organizations, college has a lot to offer if you're looking in to doing writing as a serious career. Plus, a day job will help smooth out your income and will provide much needed cash if your career doesn't take off right away.

Good luck, but you should definitely consider college or some kind of higher education if you can afford it. Studying literature and the humanities at those levels will flesh out your skills a lot.

If I could get into college, I wouldn't be able to pay for it. I don't do anything that would get me a scholarship. If I could get any other job I wouldn't fall asleep at, I'd just be a musician.

If I could get into college, I wouldn't be able to pay for it. I don't do anything that would get me a scholarship. If I could get any other job I wouldn't fall asleep at, I'd just be a musician.

Even a community college would help, especially with the cost of college. The skill polishing and help that professors and other writers could provide justifies the cost if you're interested in writing; there's a lot of aid available that has nothing to do with grades. For example, you might find a sizable scholarship left by an author to a particular school for prospective students in the humanities. It definitely doesn't hurt to try.

Of course, it's also important to mention that college towns tend to have a lot more opportunities for artists to have work, be it in music, painting, writing, or anything else you can think of. If you're lucky enough to attend a liberal-arts college on the West or East Coast, you should be able to find a job doing something you like rather than a mundane 9-to-5 to pay the bills.

If I could get into college, I wouldn't be able to pay for it. I don't do anything that would get me a scholarship. If I could get any other job I wouldn't fall asleep at, I'd just be a musician.

Even a community college would help, especially with the cost of college. The skill polishing and help that professors and other writers could provide justifies the cost if you're interested in writing; there's a lot of aid available that has nothing to do with grades. For example, you might find a sizable scholarship left by an author to a particular school for prospective students in the humanities. It definitely doesn't hurt to try.

Of course, it's also important to mention that college towns tend to have a lot more opportunities for artists to have work, be it in music, painting, writing, or anything else you can think of. If you're lucky enough to attend a liberal-arts college on the West or East Coast, you should be able to find a job doing something you like rather than a mundane 9-to-5 to pay the bills.

I already live on the West coast, in a big city. San Jose. I hate journalism though...

Not a single one of my classmates dropped out of my high school.

Of course, I also went to private prep school, so...

Not just that. We need to abolish the Department of Education. 30 years and nothing to show for it. Even NASA has done better than that!


Hmmm. I take this subject a little more seriously than others.

United Chicken Kleptos, you sound like someone with all the hallmarks of a guy who will never complete an undergraduate degree until you've lived a bit more.

Getting continuing ed. is important, and no, NOT just for the fucking piece of paper and whether or not you'll starve without it.

But you don't have to 4-year it; get an Associates or certification in something that will keep you solvent. Go back to school for the Bachelor's when it's not just some stupid obligation or whatever.

Should the writing career take off before then, well, hell, lucky you :)

But yes, I think that going in for some school at a community or city college would be a good idea. You don't have to commit to the full-on deal yet, though. That might actually be counterproductive.

People Withoout names, I want to empathize with your bitterness about being unable to get help (or a waiver) for school.

Given that most of my students are those people you seem so flippant about, it's hard.

Student Loans. It's what's working for me. I'm a straight, White male. I'm not poor. I'm not a vet. Yet, I get decent loans.

Yes, you'll be in debt for the rest of your life. But in this nation, everyone will be anyhow. Probably for the rest of their lives. I know I will be, unless I get loan forgiveness. Either way, I'll live.

And by the way, if you think those "Affirmative Action" kids don't get some pretty rough shocks, think again. They can get in, and their touition gets "helped along", or waived, or whatever. And, of course, now they are expected to perform above and beyond the call of duty, and are watched constantly. And verbally sniped at by guys like you and me.

I'm outta time, but given the chance, I'll post the story of a friend of my family. He was a "quota kid" from East St. Louis who became a Dean of Cornell's Law School. For now, I must absent myself...

Hmmm. I take this subject a little more seriously than others.

[QUOTE]United Chicken Kleptos, you sound like someone with all the hallmarks of a guy who will never complete an undergraduate degree until you've lived a bit more.

You mean like, graduate school?

Getting continuing ed. is important, and no, NOT just for the fucking piece of paper and whether or not you'll starve without it.

But you don't have to 4-year it; get an Associates or certification in something that will keep you solvent. Go back to school for the Bachelor's when it's not just some stupid obligation or whatever.

Yeah. My parents literally expect me to go to college and get at least a master's degree. I couldn't do it, though.

Should the writing career take off before then, well, hell, lucky you :)

But yes, I think that going in for some school at a community or city college would be a good idea. You don't have to commit to the full-on deal yet, though. That might actually be counterproductive.

That's exactly why I don't want to do it.

Student Loans. It's what's working for me. I'm a straight, White male. I'm not poor. I'm not a vet. Yet, I get decent loans.

Wait, colleges look at sexual orientation too? <i>Sweet!</i> Cause I'm bi.

Wow, some of the responses in this thread are just... uhh.

University isn't the great thing that everyone says it is (I'm currently a uni student), and a uni diploma is no guarantee of a job. Just because their choice doesn't suit you, doesn't mean that theirs is any less valid. Do what makes you fucking happy, not what society says is desirable.

Example: One of my friends dropped out, went to tafe, did his apprenticeship and is now a sparky earning upwards of $50,000. Another really isn't the brightest of people (understatement), dropped out because he knew he wouldn't be able to pass (this guy has gone for his learners permit 4 times) and found immediate employment has a wood polisher and is happy.

You should never say that someone isn't being a productive citizen by dropping out. Higher education just doesn't suit some people. The only actual people that should be abused are those that drop out and dont try and find work. Peoples happiness is never taken into account anymore, and that frankly disgusts me.

Take more math.

:D

Take more math.
I totally agree, especially after NF making this statement:

It's basic math that these insensitive drop outs don't understand. If there are less students in school, then less people will be in the top 5% of their school
Damn insensitive dropouts!! :p

I recently found out that up to a third of high school students drop out of school. Not only are they ruining their own life’s by dropping out, they are also ruining the smart students' chances at getting into a good college. It's basic math that these insensitive drop outs don't understand. If there are less students in school, then less people will be in the top 5% of their school, and that top 5% of the school is a very coveted place to be, because top universities love that top 5%.


What do you think?

Dont cruise and expect to be in the top 5% based on strength in numbers, work hard.

Hmmm. I take this subject a little more seriously than others.

I am quite serious. IMO, education was at a much higher standard before there was a Department of Education!

Well in the UK there's a big problem with very talented students dropping out because they're either bored at secondary school, because it's too easy (I know the feeling, and eventually you just don't care any more, which means that you do pretty crappily) or because they get seperated from normal lessons with their mates to do some far-too-intensive learning, and they get resentful about that, too.

Stuff like NAGTY (The National Academy for Gifted and Talented Youth) does help, but their courses are all in the summer holidays, which is kind of depressing when you want to have a few weeks of rest and relaxation.

In my opinion, NAGTY should definately stay open, but people should do their courses in the time they'd otherwise be at school, so that they don't get bored and resentful, and they get to take some opportunities they otherwise wouldn't get (there are loads of NAGTY courses, based around Warwick University).

That's my solution, anyway. It's probably a bit crap on thinking about it, though.

going to school is almost worthless because so many people do now. Its not like when my parents were my age where a college degree meant something. All it means now is that your better than the highschool dropouts but still not garunteed a job. basically, your a small step up from Mcdonals upon graduation :headbang:

I plan on being a writer.
Then you're fucked. Becoming a successful writer is harder to do than joining the NBA. You need something to fall back on.

I am quite serious. IMO, education was at a much higher standard before there was a Department of Education!

Sweet feckin' Poop of God.

I still don't know whether you're screwing with me. What do you mean "education was at a much higher standard"? And by whose tally was that standard "high"?

Mind you, there is an argument for what you are talking about...if you are talking about what I think you are talking about...but I don't know for sure.

My History of Ed. profs.(and secondary readings) have borne out that, like any organization, the Dept. of Ed. causes problems by its very existence, as well as solving and streamlining others. But the subjective statement of "higher standard" is meaningless to me without some further context.

Are we still talking about dropouts?

I plan on being a writer.

I'ld like fries w/ that.

trying to make everything have to begin and end with little green pieces of paper cannot help but price the average joe mere mortal out of the market place, hence i don't see how high drop out rates could be anything other then inevitable. all the determination in the world can't make up for a lack of resources made unavailable by the prevalance of backward headed priorities at decision making levels and in the total population in general.

the whole approach of academic administration is backwarded headed and counter to the providing of real and useful educatioon. the conventions of academic administration, pretty much ever since raygun.

=^^=
.../\...

I recently found out that up to a third of high school students drop out of school. Not only are they ruining their own life’s by dropping out, they are also ruining the smart students' chances at getting into a good college. It's basic math that these insensitive drop outs don't understand. If there are less students in school, then less people will be in the top 5% of their school, and that top 5% of the school is a very coveted place to be, because top universities love that top 5%.


What do you think?



Yeah, quit being so fucking selfish you capitalist pig and think of the bigger picture. People dont fail school cuz they want to. The american education system is shit anyway.

I am quite serious. IMO, education was at a much higher standard before there was a Department of Education!

It doesn't even have to be an opinion. I have a collection of US K-8 schoolbooks from the late 1800's to the middle 1930's. The English levels were beyond what I saw in college and the math was advanced for HS.

going to school is almost worthless because so many people do now. Its not like when my parents were my age where a college degree meant something. All it means now is that your better than the highschool dropouts but still not garunteed a job. basically, your a small step up from Mcdonals upon graduation :headbang:



Thats so true, I know several people who went to a four year collage, degree and everything. Who have shit now, they are worse off than when they started. And I do know another who never graduated from school. Has a very good house, in a good nieghboorhood, more than one vehical. good job, and in a Union in that job.

Thats so true, I know several people who went to a four year collage, degree and everything. Who have shit now, they are worse off than when they started. And I do know another who never graduated from school. Has a very good house, in a good nieghboorhood, more than one vehical. good job, and in a Union in that job.

Two questions.

1) What were their degrees in?

2) How long was the Union apprenticeship program (aka education)?

The "dumb kids" also probably dont give a shit about you anyways, becuase you were probably an asshole to them. So you deserve this.

The "dumb kids" also probably dont give a shit about you anyways, becuase you were probably an asshole to them. So you deserve this.

Did someone hit a nerve? ;)

Any school that requires you to be in the top xx% of something is bullshit anyway and isn't worth going to.

I'm in something like the top 33% of my class. Of a school of over 2000. It's a large school and it has a lot of bright kids. If I were going to an inner city school around here, I can ASSURE you I'd be far closer to the top 5%.

Doing things by percentages is bullshit.

Two questions.

1) What were their degrees in?

2) How long was the Union apprenticeship program (aka education)?


1. I'm not quite sure but I believe it was something buisness related, like marketing,

2. It did take them awhile to get where they are at the moment, it wasnt an easy ride I can assure you, he went through lots of shit, but he's riding good now, I never asked him how he got into the union, or anything about it really,

Did someone hit a nerve? ;)


hehe, hey, I'm gonna graduate, but so many people in high school are so damn predujice.

1. I'm not quite sure but I believe it was something buisness related, like marketing,

2. It did take them awhile to get where they are at the moment, it wasnt an easy ride I can assure you, he went through lots of shit, but he's riding good now, I never asked him how he got into the union, or anything about it really,

Yea, I see it. The problem w/ going to college is you have to pick a field that is usefull and not overfilled. Marketing majors et al is so overmanned there is little chance for a good starting job. I know of what I speak. I have a history degree w/o a teachers cert. I was lucky enough to get a good state history job before I was unlucky enough to get a new supervisor who wanted to "clean house" after I had just closed on my home. I now work in electronic R&D (thank you Navy training)

Your other buddy made a good choice but still went through schooling and got an education. Just not college. If he went back now and started some part time classes in management, he could go even farther.

Any school that requires you to be in the top xx% of something is bullshit anyway and isn't worth going to.

I'm in something like the top 33% of my class. Of a school of over 2000. It's a large school and it has a lot of bright kids. If I were going to an inner city school around here, I can ASSURE you I'd be far closer to the top 5%.

Doing things by percentages is bullshit.

Fuckin' thank you.

I have a history degree w/o a teachers cert.
That always kinda pissed me off. People automatically assume, "Oh, history degree? So, you want to be a teacher then?"

NO! There are plenty of careers that don't involve fucking teaching. Bah! :mad:

(I know you might have wanted to be a teacher, but I was just using that as an example)

That always kinda pissed me off. People automatically assume, "Oh, history degree? So, you want to be a teacher then?"

NO! There are plenty of careers that don't involve fucking teaching. Bah! :mad:

(I know you might have wanted to be a teacher, but I was just using that as an example)

I started getting a cert but realized I didn't want to go through the program at my school. They treated you like crap if you weren't part of the direct teachers education program. After that I went towards museum work. Ironically, part of my job now (electonics) involves training in research that I recieved as a history major.

It doesn't even have to be an opinion. I have a collection of US K-8 schoolbooks from the late 1800's to the middle 1930's. The English levels were beyond what I saw in college and the math was advanced for HS.

How does this necessarily mean anything concerning the Dept. of Ed.? I saw texts from the 1970's about a month ago that blew away stuff for a similar grade made two years ago...yet the Dept. of Ed. had the same stranglehold in the 70's it has today.

I've also seen classes with fantastic texts that rival those same texts from the 70's, made this year. And yet, the Dept. of Ed. that we know from the 90's and 00's is, from what some people say, "dumbing down" the standard.

Could it be, oh could it be, that there are other factors inherent to this set of problems?

Again, I'm not a big fan of the D.of Ed. They certainly aren't doing the public schools any favors right now. But I mean, come on...

I started getting a cert but realized I didn't want to go through the program at my school. They treated you like crap if you weren't part of the direct teachers education program. After that I went towards museum work. Ironically, part of my job now (electonics) involves training in research that I recieved as a history major.

Yes, I've noticed the teaching schools have wierd heirarchies of "who's more important to us". There's an assumption, I think caused by the seige mentality that a lot of teachers feel themselves in, that one has to be 100% demonstrably committed to being a teacher, or one isn't worth paying attention to by the department.

Which is fuckin' stupid. As if we need to give more ammunition to the joes that think academia/college/continuing ed./professors are elitist and off in their own little world...

Yea, I see it. The problem w/ going to college is you have to pick a field that is usefull and not overfilled. Marketing majors et al is so overmanned there is little chance for a good starting job. I know of what I speak. I have a history degree w/o a teachers cert. I was lucky enough to get a good state history job before I was unlucky enough to get a new supervisor who wanted to "clean house" after I had just closed on my home. I now work in electronic R&D (thank you Navy training)

Your other buddy made a good choice but still went through schooling and got an education. Just not college. If he went back now and started some part time classes in management, he could go even farther.

Yeah he could, that sucks though man, history is so fun too, it'd be nice if there was some job where you could do history stuff and get paid for it, archeoligists do thats only one field.

Which is fuckin' stupid. As if we need to give more ammunition to the joes that think academia/college/continuing ed./professors are elitist and off in their own little world...


There are allot of eudcators that seem like that. I dont think of all of them like that but some really need to open their brains a bit.

There are allot of eudcators that seem like that. I dont think of all of them like that but some really need to open their brains a bit.

Yes, this is a kind of mentality favored, unfortunately, at the collegiate, graduate, and post-graduate level. An assumption that one can read the future intent (and by this, the actual worth or virtue) of the person within a specific degree program or area of certification.

It is not, fortunately, the only kind. Nor is it even in the majority, as far as I can see.

Sad to say, though, the Braying Stupids of academia are often very LOUD to make up for their relative lack of real-world power. As are most of the Braying Stupids of the world-at-large. Hence, they seem like they are everywhere.

And God help you if one is your advisor, or on your committee.:(

If you want to look at it in a self-centered way, less students at university will make a degree more special and valued, and mean there'll be a better teacher/student ratio and more funds for each individual student etc.

Aside from that, formal education is not the only or (in many cases due to a screwed up system IMO) best marker for success. It in no way decides a person's worth. Also, I hate the idea of a set route that everyone should take, and if you don't, you're a failure. It's crazy. Not everyone is the same, or wants the same, or needs the same, and that's a good thing.

Plus, my dad was a drop out. He now has a PhD.
My mum left school at 16. She now has a degree.
University just didn't suit my dad at the time he was "supposed" to go, and for my mum it just wasn't possible finanically. It didn't stop them eventually getting these qualifications and being able to become successful.

(oh, and incase it changes anything, I'm supposed to be the highest achiever at my school and I do plan to go to University and stay in education until PhD level, if at all possible.)

In Ireland there are realtively few jobs you can get with out having completed the leaving cert. While there are always plenty of trade jobs which can pay well the other jobs generally dont. Its good to stay in school but its not always feasible for people to do so.

Yeah he could, that sucks though man, history is so fun too, it'd be nice if there was some job where you could do history stuff and get paid for it, archeoligists do thats only one field.

Like I said, I had one. I worked at a living history farm. I got to dress up like a 1840's farmer. It was hard work (we farmed historically too) but was a blast.

Its good to stay in school but its not always feasible for people to do so.
Considering its free, they should try (unless circumstances arise that its impossible).

Not many dropped out of my high school. And the only ones who dropped out of high school during the time I was in, weren't doing a thing there anyway. I don't think it would have helped anyone for them to have stayed in. I also have no reason to believe that dropping out hurt/helped their futures, for that matter. Another year in the joint wouldn't have helped those who were delinquents, nor would it have given entrepreneurial sense and drive to the ones who ended up slaving in factories.

In the US, or at least in the state of Michigan, the difference between dropping out and graduating is only a year (unless they've changed the law recently)! 16 to drop, 17 to graduate (or 18, depending on your birth month). A year more of high school doesn't make a difference in the grand scheme of things--the person is not going to mutate into some ultra-driven, motivated person just by sticking it out another year.

University isn't the great thing that everyone says it is (I'm currently a uni student), and a uni diploma is no guarantee of a job. Just because their choice doesn't suit you, doesn't mean that theirs is any less valid. Do what makes you fucking happy, not what society says is desirable.Exactly!

Same with a high school diploma. The highly-educated McDonald's worker is a fairly common joke! Even with better jobs, many things learned in school end up being re-learned in some other way once the person is on an actual job anyway.



If you start something you should finish it.High school isn't something most (if any) of its students have any intention of "starting." They're forced in by the law! There is no commitment owed to that infernal system, because it's not something that was entered by choice.

I'm not anti-learning by any means. *Learning* is good. But the educational *system* at the pre-university level (K-12 in the US) is a purely rotten thing that doesn't deserve support. In fact, it ought to be nuked to glass! It stifles initiative and creativity, it's dictatorial and strongly promotes blind obedience...in short, it promotes exactly the wrong traits in people.

it'd be nice if there was some job where you could do history stuff and get paid for it, archeoligists do thats only one field. There are positions for historians, although probably not too many. Movie writers, book authors, and even video game makers hire historians at times. Also I would expect that museums would hire people with backgrounds in history.

I agree. Start with making it so that getting an education actually matters.

But then how will we be indoctrinated into the ways of mindless conformity and subservience?

Then you're fucked. Becoming a successful writer is harder to do than joining the NBA. You need something to fall back on.

That doesn't mean I shouldn't try. I've sent a manuscript I wrote in less than two months into a publisher and they loved it. It wasn't even very long either. So I know for a fact that I'm a good writer. Maybe I'm just a natural.