NationStates Jolt Archive

Japan should be allowed to rebuild thier military to its former power. Maybe without the word "Imperial" in it, but they should be allowed that sort of power back in thier navy and army, they'll need it to deterr, or if nesissary defend themselves from other asian powers, like N.Korea and China. The US and UN let Germany rearm long, long ago. Ideas?

Japan should be allowed to rebuild thier military to its former power. Maybe without the word "Imperial" in it, but they should be allowed that sort of power back in thier navy and army, they'll need it to deterr, or if nesissary defend themselves from other asian powers, like N.Korea and China. The US and UN let Germany rearm long, long ago. Ideas?


You won't get much support for that here. But I do agree with you. Every nation has a right to defend itself and this dehorning of Japan should end. I would like to see Japan take over its own defense so the americans can leave and Japan can take a bigger role in the world.

But on the other hand, NK is a major threat, but China is not. I never did understand why so many think China is or even wants to attack Japan. China is growing and won't just throw it away to attack a peaceful neighbour. China isn't stupid you know.

What? So they can attack North Korea themselves instead of trying to trick the US into doing it?
There is no need for even more nations to arm themselves.

I actually like Japan's policy of only building a defensive military. If it is indeed a possible target of North Korea's ballistic missiles, the only change I would advocate is for Japan to use deterrence. Either threaten North Korea with sanctions or have a reserve of missiles of its own to match North Korea's. Mutually assured destruction.

But on the other hand, NK is a major threat, but China is not. I never did understand why so many think China is or even wants to attack Japan. China is growing and won't just throw it away to attack a peaceful neighbour. China isn't stupid you know.

Yeah, I get what your saying, but they have had a past of territory grab, like Tibet, thier failed invasion of Vietnam and how they want Tiwain back. I believe that China wouldn't attack Japan anytime soon, you're right, it'd be stupid, but perhaps in the long term future China would want to iliminate all threats to their regional, or possible global (by then) dominance.

why not?

Yeah, I get what your saying, but they have had a past of territory grab, like Tibet, thier failed invasion of Vietnam and how they want Tiwain back. I believe that China wouldn't attack Japan anytime soon, you're right, it'd be stupid, but perhaps in the long term future China would want to iliminate all threats to their regional, or possible global (by then) dominance.


By attacking Japan? Why not just trade with Japan and tie Japans economy into China's and make 5 trillion dollars?

My worry is that Taiwan might issue some kind of offensive statement to China. China will attempt to consolidate Taiwan by force. Then Japan and the U.S. might get involved to defend Taiwan. That is the start of a major war.

China has been thetening to invade tiwan for quite some time now, so that is a possible outcome.

My worry is that Taiwan might issue some kind of offensive statement to China. China will attempt to consolidate Taiwan by force. Then Japan and the U.S. might get involved to defend Taiwan. That is the start of a major war.
nope they will use it as a bonus card
you are aq n00b

My worry is that Taiwan might issue some kind of offensive statement to China. China will attempt to consolidate Taiwan by force. Then Japan and the U.S. might get involved to defend Taiwan. That is the start of a major war.
What?
None of those countries are that stupid. The days when people go to war on a whim are gone. Now, if Taiwan discovered an extremely large oil field (and not just the ones on those dinky islands the that Japan is always trying to claim) then you might have a war.

Japan should be allowed to rebuild thier military to its former power. Maybe without the word "Imperial" in it, but they should be allowed that sort of power back in thier navy and army, they'll need it to deterr, or if nesissary defend themselves from other asian powers, like N.Korea and China. The US and UN let Germany rearm long, long ago. Ideas?
Japan has been streching Clause 9 ever since the USSR became the newest threat. They can easily defend themselves, and even have troops of the "Defence Force" stationed abroad. They have a very modern military, with top-of-the-line equipment, of either home or US manufacture.

China has been thetening to invade tiwan for quite some time now, so that is a possible outcome.


China has been shooting off its mouth for years about Taiwan, I doubt anybody takes them seriously anymore.

Japan has been streching Clause 9 ever since the USSR became the newest threat. They can easily defend themselves, and even have troops of the "Defence Force" stationed abroad. They have a very modern military, with top-of-the-line equipment, of either home or US manufacture.
Not to mention there is speculation that they have all the components to assemble nuclear weapons, should the need arise.

we should just blow Nk off the map and get it overwith

Japan has been streching Clause 9 ever since the USSR became the newest threat. They can easily defend themselves, and even have troops of the "Defence Force" stationed abroad. They have a very modern military, with top-of-the-line equipment, of either home or US manufacture.

Japan is ranked number 7 in the world.

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Japan Military Strength






NR = Not Reported



Minimum Military Enlistment Age: 18 Years Old

Available Military Manpower: 27,003,112
Active Military Personnel: 148,500
Frontline Personnel: 70,000

Yearly Military Expenditure: $44,310,000,000
Available Purchasing Power: $3,914,000,000,000
Reported Gold Reserves: $845,000,000,000

Small Arms Authorized Exports (FY2005) : $65,000,000
Small Arms Authorized Imports (FY2005): $77,000,000





NR = Not Reported


Aircraft: 1,957
Armor: 2,040
Artillery Systems: 5,760
Missile Defense Systems: 960
Infantry Support Systems: 1,460
Naval Units: 172
Merchant Marine Strength: 683





NR = Not Reported


Serviceable Airports: 173
Railways: 23,577 km
Waterways: 1,770 km
Serviceable Roadways: 1,177,278 km
Total Square Area: 377,835 km





NR = Not Reported
bbl = Barrels Per Day


Major Ports and Harbors: 10

Oil Production: 120,700 (bbl per day)
Oil Consumption: 5,578,000 (bbl per day)
Proven Oil Reserves: 29,290,000 (barrels)

Labor Force: 66,400,000

I think we should give Red China an ultimatum - either North Korea verifiably disarms by January 1 (Chicoms can do it - they have A LOT of influence on Norks) or we strongly encourage Japan to build 1000 ICBMs with nuclear warheads (and Taiwan too). We are actually already on that path - currently helping India to enlarge its nuclear arsenal. It's past time Chicoms stopped thinking they can create problems for us (by allowing North Korea to go nuclear) without getting any problems in return.

By attacking Japan? Why not just trade with Japan and tie Japans economy into China's and make 5 trillion dollars?


True, but they also may get loured into a war if there is another Korean war, or China invades Tiwian...

Japan is ranked number 7 in the world.

Those are good facts, but what does the Japanese military use for equipment these days? do they use their own, or just US military run offs and surplus's?

Those are good facts, but what does the Japanese military use for equipment these days? do they use their own, or just US military run offs and surplus's?
They have quite the home industry when it comes to that
the rest is in the most part US supply

Those are good facts, but what does the Japanese military use for equipment these days? do they use their own, or just US military run offs and surplus's?

Thier own and modern US.

Compare Japan and NK


http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries_comparison_detail.asp




North Korea Military Strength .................................Japan Military Strength
North Korea ......Country.................................................. Japan


$5,217,400,000 ........Yearly Military Expenditure ...........$44,310,000,000
17......................... Minimum Enlistment .........................Age 18
5,851,801............. Available Military Manpower............. 27,003,112
950,000.................. Active Military Personnel ................ 148,500
800,000 ......................Frontline Personnel .....................70,000
1,624 .....................................Aircraft..................... 1,957
6,560 .............................Armor.................................. 2,040
21,400............................ Artillery ...............................5,760
16,075.......................... Missile Defense Systems.............. 960
9,200 ............................Infantry Support Systems ..........1,460
708 ......................................Navy Units ................... 172
284 ..............................Merchant Marine Units ................... 683
11 ...........................................Major Ports ....................10
0 (bbl per day) .............. Oil Production ................120,700 (bbl per day)
25,000 (bbl per day) .............Oil Consumption ... 5,578,000 (bbl per day)
NR ..................................Proven Oil Reserves .... 29,290,000
$NR ......................Arms Exports............................. $65,000,000
$NR..................... Arms Imports ......................... $77,000,000
31,200 Km Roadways 1,177,278 Km
5,214 Km Railways 23,577 Km
2,250 Km Waterways 1,770 Km
120,540 Sq Km Land Area 377,835 Sq Km
79 Airports 173
9,600,000...................... Labor Force ......................... 66,400,000
$40,000,000,000 ...............Purchasing Power...... $3,914,000,000,000 :D
$NR................................. Gold Reserves .......... $845,000,000,000

True, but they also may get loured into a war if there is another Korean war, or China invades Tiwian...


China will not invade Taiwan as the USA already supports a 1 China policy. Even if there is another Korean war China won't support NK out of fear of having the US and Japan turn on them. They won't do anything to harm their increasing power.

Those are good facts, but what does the Japanese military use for equipment these days? do they use their own, or just US military run offs and surplus's?


They use their own and the top of the line US equipment . ( They in fact have many joint weapons productions with the US ) .

Japan in fact is one of the most important parts of the US military and industrial complex. They do not need a Military they already own part of ours .

RANKING THE WORLD MILITARY POWERS
Below you will find a basic ranking model of the world military powers. Values are based on a country's placement in our various lists and shown as a collective average below. Naturally a list such as this is designed to be subjective so there is room for disagreement as to its accuracy (or inaccuracy).

NOTE: Nuclear weapons, military experience, unit training and equipment quality are not taken into account. This is a list based soley on the officially reported numbers presented throughout this site.

Updated 04/21/2006


1 United States of America
2 China
3 Russia
4 India
5 Germany
6 France
7 Japan
8 Turkey
9 Great Britain
10 Brazil
11 Italy
12 South Korea
13 Indonesia
14 Canada
15 Iran
16 Spain
17 Egypt
18 North Korea
19 Australia
20 Pakistan
21 Mexico
22 Saudi Arabia
23 Israel
24 Argentina
25 Greece
26 Syria
27 Iraq
28 Taiwan
29 Poland
30 Philippines
31 Ukraine
32 Venezuela
33 Libya
34 Afghanistan
35 Nepal

They use their own and the top of the line US equipment . ( They in fact have many joint weapons productions with the US ) .

Japan in fact is one of the most important parts of the US military and industrial complex. They do not need a Military they already own part of ours .

thats a good point, but I believe thier own National army would fight with more enthusiasm and courage than a hired one.

woot!

my country is number 24

not too bad!

The Japanese are a Disaplined Buisness minded culture who should build it's military to a level that is suitable to the world stage. The Japanese are good people and shouldnt need to us the United States for support.

China itself is still communist and to be communist means everything is ours, you must submit! After Tibet was taken from its people China even pushed further into a conflict with India at its borders long ago.

China is a very calculated country much like the US and any other nation or politician, they certainly dont want to have a war against numerous nations from around the world for the land rights of Taiwan because they would lose.

even thought China has made HUGE leaps in technology for its military, its still some what crude on a world powers stage.

Kudos China keeping with the "you work for it and we'll take it from you" Communist mentality with regards to the military espionage they partake in.

EXECUTE WENHO LEE :sniper:

We're falling behind: these were supposed to be out in 2007!

http://macross.anime.ru/robotech/veritech.gif

We're falling behind: these were supposed to be out in 2007!

http://macross.anime.ru/robotech/veritech.gif
They're working on it, they're working on it. They finally got the powerframes going. Though it looks more like a Gundam model than a VF-1, sadly.

They're working on it, they're working on it. They finally got the powerframes going. Though it looks more like a Gundam model than a VF-1, sadly.

S'ok. I know it's harder since the Super Dimensional Fortress didn't crashland in the Pacific in 1999 like it was supposed to. ;)

Are you sure? I thought it was looking more VF like!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/80/VF-1J.jpg/300px-VF-1J.jpg

Those are good facts, but what does the Japanese military use for equipment these days? do they use their own, or just US military run offs and surplus's?
As you would expect from Japan, it's mostly the latest and greatest.

Some examples not yet mentioned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_90
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as38-e.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/oyashio.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongo_class_destroyer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atago_class_destroyer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/f-15j.htm

So basically, in my opinion the country already has rearmed. It's just semantics, and how ready politicians and the people are to use the means at their disposal.

S'ok. I know it's harder since the Super Dimensional Fortress didn't crashland in the Pacific in 1999 like it was supposed to. ;)

Are you sure? I thought it was looking more VF like!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/80/VF-1J.jpg/300px-VF-1J.jpg

What? No organic robots? No office-building-sized oedipus complex? No psychopathic German girl? No guy folding his hands in front of his face? :p

Now, seriously: "Red China"? Cold war mentality? Did Drop The Hammer drop one in his head or what? :p

What? No organic robots? No office-building-sized oedipus complex? No psychopathic German girl? No guy folding his hands in front of his face? :p


It's in jet mode. They started chasing me before I could get snaps of it changing modes. :gundge:

I need to try reading before posting. Also, I should probably stop watching dubs.

It's in jet mode. They started chasing me before I could get snaps of it changing modes. :gundge:

Meh. I like Evangelion better.

Japan should be allowed to rebuild thier military to its former power. Maybe without the word "Imperial" in it, but they should be allowed that sort of power back in thier navy and army, they'll need it to deterr, or if nesissary defend themselves from other asian powers, like N.Korea and China. The US and UN let Germany rearm long, long ago. Ideas?
Germany is hardly anymore rearmed then Japan is.

My worry is that Taiwan might issue some kind of offensive statement to China. China will attempt to consolidate Taiwan by force. Then Japan and the U.S. might get involved to defend Taiwan. That is the start of a major war.

To China, there is no "problem" with Taipei - it's just a matter of getting across the straits without 100,000 soldiers behind it.

Japan has one of the best benefits of being a "defensive" power, in that it spends nearly zilch of its GDP on a military. Of course, they've alrerady got a sizable force, and that's all they really need.

offensive defense [Roman strategy - conquer enemies before they become threats] is more aggressive and it would only upset China, Korea, and perhaps a few other countries even more thatn they have already been upset. that and Japan's added bid to become a permanent member of the UNSC...

[ - conquer enemies before they become threats]
Sounds very American.

Sounds very American.
America has emulated the Roman Republic in many ways. Let us hope it does not emulate its new beginnings as well.

America has emulated the Roman Republic in many ways. Let us hope it does not emulate its new beginnings as well.
You mean beeing burned to the ground? That would be funny to watch.

Sounds very American.

I was thinking more along the lines of Nazi Germany, but I suppose that works too.

FullMetalJacket']I was thinking more along the lines of Nazi Germany, but I suppose that works too.
The 2 are very much alike.

I always just set you right up for those don't I...:p Oh well, not really a bad thing I guess...gives the rest of the world something to piss and moan about.

You mean beeing burned to the ground? That would be funny to watch.
Yeah...no. I was thinking more along the lines of "General/War Hero turns President turns Emperor" bit.

Yeah...no. I was thinking more along the lines of "General/War Hero turns President turns Emperor" bit.
Well, to be a General/War Hero perhaps Bushy should have fought an actual war. Instead of just defending Texan airspace against the clearly superior VC airforce. So no threat in the General/War Hero departement.

Yeah...no. I was thinking more along the lines of "General/War Hero turns President turns Emperor" bit.
Well, to be a General/War Hero perhaps Bushy should have fought an actual war. Instead of just defending Texan airspace against the clearly superior VC airforce. So no threat in the General/War Hero departement.

I agree with the concept of this thread. Japan needs to build a large forve to frighten China and N. Korea. A strong alliance with S. Korea, and Taiwan would be interesting. Plus it would be nice to see a force to fight away American Imperialism.

You have two distinct ideas here, one of which is based on flat out ignorance, the other is questionable.

Japan should be allowed to rebuild thier military to its former power. Maybe without the word "Imperial" in it, but they should be allowed that sort of power back in thier navy and army, they'll need it to deterr, or if nesissary defend themselves from other asian powers, like N.Korea and China.

This is the questionable one. There are both domestic and international objections to be considered, as well as strategic neccessity.

The US and UN let Germany rearm long, long ago. Ideas?

This is the false one. The US not only "allowed" Japan to do so, but actually induced Japan to do so, in violation of Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution. The creation of the Keisatsu Yobitai (National Police Reserve, a "light" force of 75,000) in 1950 was done at the express order of MacArthur, in order to allow the U.S. 24th Infantry Division to be sent to Korea.

You won't get much support for that here. But I do agree with you. Every nation has a right to defend itself and this dehorning of Japan should end. I would like to see Japan take over its own defense so the americans can leave and Japan can take a bigger role in the world.

Pretty much exactly so. However, Japan did this to itself. Remember that Article 9 was suggested by the Japanese (Prime Minister Kijuro Shidehara), not the Americans. If Japan wants to remove it, they should. But the current situation is in violation of both the spirit and letter of the law. Also, the current military is capable of defending Japan against most likely enemies, especially in the context of the mutual treaties.

But on the other hand, NK is a major threat, but China is not. I never did understand why so many think China is or even wants to attack Japan. China is growing and won't just throw it away to attack a peaceful neighbour. China isn't stupid you know.

It's mostly the anti-Japanese rhetoric coming out of Beijing and things like recent attacks on Japanese tourists, which is being used to further the CPC's domestic agenda.


What? So they can attack North Korea themselves instead of trying to trick the US into doing it?

Put away the tin-foil hat. :rolleyes:

Japan has been streching Clause 9 ever since the USSR became the newest threat.

1) Article 9, not Clause. (Pednatic, I know, but accuracy is important.)

2) Article 9 was violated by the creation of the Keisatsu Yobitai in 1950, less than 3 years after it's adoption. Article 9's language is quite clear that Japan shouldn't have any military forces at all.

ARTICLE 9. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.

In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.

Put away the tin-foil hat. :rolleyes:
Hey, I'm not the one claiming that one of those Korean missles was aimed at Hawaii.

Japan's army is the second largest in the world, only behind the US. I think they have rebuilt.

I meant Navy, excuse me.

I meant Navy, excuse me.

I think Russia might actually still be number 2, although I might be wrong. Regardless, their budget problems ensure they can't mobilize it all...so really it doesn't count for much.

In terms of Blue-Water navies though, I'm pretty sure your right. Even larger than the Royal Navy even...just no aircraft carriers.

As for Japan rearming...I'm all for it. I think that, despite historical differences, Japan should seek closer ties with South Korea and Taiwan...the three of them together would make the Chinese and North Koreans think twice.

Such a scenario is unrealistic however...but based on stats posted earlier, I think Japan will be just fine as long as they aquire more SAM systems and some aircraft. They already have most of what they need...there's no reason for them to go overboard.

I'll tell you one thing though...if even one NK missile lands in Japan, either accidental or intentional, you'll see Japan's military spending jump up from only 1% of their GDP pretty fucking quick.

North Korea is China's stalking horse. Nothing happens in North Korea without the sufferance of the PRC. The PRC is not keen on the reunification of Korea if it puts an economic/political rival on its border, to wit: a "non-Communist" and United Korea. China may offer to tone down N. Korea if we give them the nod to re-absorb Taiwan. Japan militarizes at its own dire peril; its reliance upon its alliance with the US is a weak reed. Japan's interests lie in a closer, more subserviant relationship with the PRC.

Japan should be allowed to rebuild thier military to its former power. Maybe without the word "Imperial" in it, but they should be allowed that sort of power back in thier navy and army, they'll need it to deterr, or if nesissary defend themselves from other asian powers, like N.Korea and China. The US and UN let Germany rearm long, long ago. Ideas?

West Germany was rearmed because it was the only think standing between Europe and years of delicious socialism.

1) Article 9, not Clause. (Pednatic, I know, but accuracy is important.)

2) Article 9 was violated by the creation of the Keisatsu Yobitai in 1950, less than 3 years after it's adoption. Article 9's language is quite clear that Japan shouldn't have any military forces at all.

Yes. And the Allies can take Article 9, AND SHOVE IT UP THEIR ASSES.

North Korea is China's stalking horse. Nothing happens in North Korea without the sufferance of the PRC. The PRC is not keen on the reunification of Korea if it puts an economic/political rival on its border, to wit: a "non-Communist" and United Korea. China may offer to tone down N. Korea if we give them the nod to re-absorb Taiwan. Japan militarizes at its own dire peril; its reliance upon its alliance with the US is a weak reed. Japan's interests lie in a closer, more subserviant relationship with the PRC.
Uh... riiiiight. Japan does have the second largest economy on the planet. Japan does have a very capable military backed up with the US 7th Fleet, more Marines than you can shake a stick at, and other ascpects of the most powerful military on the planet. And Japan is covered under the US nuclear umbrella.

Now what part of that means Japan must be subserviant to the PRC?

Yes. And the Allies can take Article 9, AND SHOVE IT UP THEIR ASSES.
You DID read that Article 9 was a Japanese creation, did you not? You may also know (or not) that the US has been putting pressure on Japan to scrap Article 9 for some time now. About a half a year to a year ago when amending Japan's constitution was the big thing, America put a lot of pressure for a re-write.

It's Japan's population that's skittish about removing or changing Article 9. The Diet cannot even agree how to do it, let alone actually do it.

Yes, Japan should rearm. Just not with plans on competing with the US for scrap metal, rubber, or oil, and definetly hide the maps of pearl harbor ;)

You DID read that Article 9 was a Japanese creation, did you not? You may also know (or not) that the US has been putting pressure on Japan to scrap Article 9 for some time now. About a half a year to a year ago when amending Japan's constitution was the big thing, America put a lot of pressure for a re-write.

It's Japan's population that's skittish about removing or changing Article 9. The Diet cannot even agree how to do it, let alone actually do it.

I'm pretty sure the Allies had some sort of hand in it's creation. Proud imperial nations like Japan don't just say "Fuck it, let's throw away our entire military, to the point that we can't defend ourselves!"

Yes, Japan should rearm. Just not with plans on competing with the US for scrap metal, rubber, or oil, and definetly hide the maps of pearl harbor ;)
Considering the numbers of Japanese tourists who visit Pearl Harbor every day, I'm not sure that would help. :p

West Germany was rearmed because it was the only think standing between Europe and years of delicious socialism.

You mean years of oppression and poverty?

Yep

I'm pretty sure the Allies had some sort of hand in it's creation. Proud imperial nations like Japan don't just say "Fuck it, let's throw away our entire military, to the point that we can't defend ourselves!"
Japan in the post-WWII period was undergoing some very, very rapid changes. While there is some contraversy on who wrote it, it does seem to have come from the Japanese side, for a wide range of reasons, notably to protect the Showa Emperor and the Imperial Throne.

You mean years of oppression and poverty?

Yep

Yes, pretty much.

Considering the numbers of Japanese tourists who visit Pearl Harbor every day, I'm not sure that would help. :p


OH NOES!11!!!! THE JAPANESE ARE OUT TO FINISH OFF PEARL HARBOR! :eek:



;)

Yes, pretty much.

Sucked to live in the eatern block.

Sucked to live in the eatern block.

D'ya think?

You mean beeing burned to the ground? That would be funny to watch.

We'd need Emperors first.
If we take the Roman example as a roadmap, the US is still in it's Republic days.
Then the world would have to deal with about 1484 years of American Empire. That takes us up to something like 3500 AD, depending on when America BECOMES an Empire.

Isn't that a comforting thought? :p

Considering the numbers of Japanese tourists who visit Pearl Harbor every day, I'm not sure that would help. :p

Um, that answer being "damned few"?
Have you ever BEEN to Pearl?

Japanese tourists avoid it like the plague.

Japan's navy is the second largest in the world, only behind the US. I think they have rebuilt.

Um, no. Not even close:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_navies

Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force
Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force

The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (海上自衛隊, Kaijō Jieitai?), or JMSDF, is the maritime branch of the Japanese Self-Defense Force, tasked with the naval defense of Japan and formed following the dissolution of the Imperial Japanese Navy after World War II.[1] The force is based strictly on defensive armament, largely lacking the offensive weapons typically handled by naval forces of equivalent size.

The Maritime Self-Defense Force (MSDF) has an authorized strength of 46,000 and maintains some 45,800 personnel and operates 146 major combatants, including:
twenty one submarines,
fifty-five destroyers and frigates,
thirty-three mine warfare ships and boats,
nine patrol craft, and
nine amphibious ships.
It also flies some 179 fixed-wing aircraft and 135 helicopters.

Which makes it MUCH smaller than the UK, France, or even Spain.
Russia, India, and China are certainly larger as well.

Japan should be allowed to rebuild thier military to its former power. Maybe without the word "Imperial" in it, but they should be allowed that sort of power back in thier navy and army, they'll need it to deterr, or if nesissary defend themselves from other asian powers, like N.Korea and China. The US and UN let Germany rearm long, long ago. Ideas?

Germany didn't "rearm" as such. It has defensive forces, and those are to be used for defensive purposes only. Not quite the same as an army.

Germany didn't "rearm" as such. It has defensive forces, and those are to be used for defensive purposes only. Not quite the same as an army.

"Der Heer" does have three armoured/mechanized divisions. While that's not exactly a lot historically, Germany could still probably kick any other chocolate producing country's ass. :D

I'm confused by this entire discussion.

I've looked at the charts and stats of military power but...where are the ninjas? Japan doesn't need an army, they just need a handful of master ninja guys who can sink ships, catch nukes in the air and perform WMD roundhouse kick attacks on the enemy. Where are the ninjas?

On a serious note though...yes, I think Japan should buff up it's navy and airforce. NK is a fucktard of a national neighbur and I wouldn't trust China either. Japan has the luxury of beeing an island so it doesn't need a huge army as long as the navy and airforce is strong.

Germany didn't "rearm" as such. It has defensive forces, and those are to be used for defensive purposes only. Not quite the same as an army.

Thanks to creative interpretations of the word "defensive", Germany can use it's miltary to strike anywhere in the world it perceived to be a threat to the nation.

Um, that answer being "damned few"?
Have you ever BEEN to Pearl?

Japanese tourists avoid it like the plague.
Been? No. Been grabbed by seemingly everyone in Japan who has ever been to Hawai'i and shown pictures of their trip which included Pearl Harbor, yes. ;)

"Der Heer" does have three armoured/mechanized divisions.
Well, "defence" obviously had to be creatively interpreted if the Soviets are going to march through the place with 15,000 tanks.
Nonetheless, the doctrine for the armoured forces is a defensive one only, and the constitution still talks of "Verteidigungsfall (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verteidigungsfall)", in which all sorts of changes happen to the way the country works and is run. So Germany can't declare war, but it can take part in NATO or UN operations (alá Kosovo or Afghanistan).

And strictly speaking it's 5+ divisions (http://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a/heer/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd483N7YASYGYZu7m-pEwsaCUVH1fj_zcVH1v_QD9gtyIckdHRUUAiIq5xg!!/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfR182SDA!?yw_contentURL=%2FC1256F87004CF5AE%2FW26JFAJF947INFODE%2Fcontent.jsp ), plus the Franco-German Brigade and other such smaller units.

Thanks to creative interpretations of the word "defensive", Germany can use it's miltary to strike anywhere in the world it perceived to be a threat to the nation.
Deploy? Yes. "Strike"? Probably not.

Maybe they should have a look at buying one of those CVF carriers. Pity that they don't have the money for it. For a carrier of that size, they seem remarkably cost-effective, and the Brits have already done all the hard work!

"Der Heer" does have three armoured/mechanized divisions.
Which are all in the process of beeing reduced. Cause less=more. That seems to be the mantra these days.
I remember something to that extend coming from the former minister of defence Peter Struck after he proudly announced the reduction of the BW from 325,000 to 225,000. Meanwhile the soldiers who are in Afghanistan have to buy some of their equipment from Tchibo. (a coffe shop chain like starbucks) At their own expense. Which makes Tchibo obviously part of the military industrial complex of Germany.
Sueddeutsche (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/deutschland/artikel/559/75484/)
While that's not exactly a lot historically, Germany could still probably kick any other chocolate producing country's ass. :D
Don't be to sure.

Thanks to creative interpretations of the word "defensive", Germany can use it's miltary to strike anywhere in the world it perceived to be a threat to the nation.

It can't, actually. But the constitution has been amended in a way that will allow German troops to be sent on UN missions. That's it, though. No "first strike defensive" for Germany, thank goodness.

Which are all in the process of beeing reduced. Cause less=more. That seems to be the mantra these days.
Well, what are you going to do with that extra 200,000 dudes you don't need, because all your neighbours are your friends?
To deal with stuff overseas you want a smaller, more efficient and more flexible sort of force, not 3,000 tanks that weigh 60 tons or something. That's what they're doing, and they're doing it for good reason. Unless you want to fight Austria of course.

Meanwhile the soldiers who are in Afghanistan have to buy some of their equipment from Tchibo. (a coffe shop chain like starbucks) At their own expense. Which makes Tchibo obviously part of the military industrial complex of Germany.
Sueddeutsche (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/deutschland/artikel/559/75484/)
Well, Tchibo also sells other stuff that Starbucks doesn't. Like binoculars. :D

As it is, this seems to be a case not of not enough money around, but of an army that is of yet inexperienced with the logistics required to run operations half way across the world. The stuff seems to be there (and moneywise the German army actually has plenty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures), they're just spending too much on maintenance, bureaucracy and wages and too little on the stuff they're supposed to be doing), it just doesn't reach the "front" in any reasonable amount of time.

Well, what are you going to do with that extra 200,000 dudes you don't need, because all your neighbours are your friends?
To deal with stuff overseas you want a smaller, more efficient and more flexible sort of force, not 3,000 tanks that weigh 60 tons or something. That's what they're doing, and they're doing it for good reason. Unless you want to fight Austria of course.
The BW these days is one of their main ways to save money if spending needs to be reduced. Thats why they do it. And nothing else.

Well, Tchibo also sells other stuff that Starbucks doesn't. Like binoculars. :D .
I fail to see whats so funny about this.

As it is, this seems to be a case not of not enough money around, but of an army that is of yet inexperienced with the logistics required to run operations half way across the world. The stuff seems to be there (and moneywise the German army actually has plenty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures), they're just spending too much on maintenance, bureaucracy and wages and too little on the stuff they're supposed to be doing), it just doesn't reach the "front" in any reasonable amount of time.
Thats why I´m for the remilitarisation of the military. If you want a civilian in uniform, buerger in uniform, call a cop or a fireman.

The BW these days is one of their main ways to save money if spending needs to be reduced. Thats why they do it. And nothing else.
The big reductions are over now. These days transformation (http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd4w3DPICSYGZbn76kTCxoJRUfV-P_NxUfW_9AP2C3IhyR0dFRQC-8hiw/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvd0ZNQUFzQUMvNElVRS82X0FfR1BK) is what they're aiming for, and looking at their websites, that is exactly what they are telling you. Unless of course you choose not to believe the military when it comes to military matters.

Luftwaffe:
http://www.luftwaffe.de/portal/a/luftwaffe/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN48PMALJgFmG-pFQkaCUVH1vfV-P_NxU_QD9gtyIckdHRUUAnQw9rg!!/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfN19OUjM!?yw_contentURL=%2F01DB060000000001%2FW26R5GYY770INFODE%2Fcontent.jsp
http://www.luftwaffe.de/portal/a/luftwaffe/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN48PcwHJgFgBhvqRUJGglFR9X4_83FR9b_0A_YLciHJHR0VFAHjOZxo!/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfN19CVDk!?yw_contentURL=%2F01DB060000000001%2FW26KYG8U909INFODE%2Fcontent.jsp

Heer:
http://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a/heer/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd4838zAESYGZ7iH6kRhi5gixIH1vfV-P_NxU_QD9gtzQiHJHR0UAHCg80Q!!/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfR182VUM!?yw_contentURL=/C1256F870054206E/W26B8FLN067INFODE/content.jsp
http://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a/heer/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd48383ADSYGZ7ub6kTCxoJRUfV-P_NxUfW_9AP2C3IhyR0dFRQCQyqQp/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfR183Mzk!?yw_contentURL=%2FC1256F870054206E%2FW268ZL2B362INFODE%2Fcontent.jsp

Marine:
http://www.marine.de/01DB070000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W2699EMP651INFODE
http://www.marine.de/01DB070000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26L89T7341INFODE

The German government has been doing exactly what every other government in Europe (http://ftp.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=2976&sequence=2) has done after the Cold War..

I fail to see whats so funny about this.
I don't. But then, I'm not a patriot either.
By the way, do you know how much of their own stuff US soldiers are taking to Iraq? There was even a thread about the government bitching about them taking their own kevlar vests.

Thats why I´m for the remilitarisation of the military.
Which would be a gigantic waste of money, as well as against the wishes of the population.
A militarised military gets you gigantic insurgencies and 3000 coffins being sent home.

The big reductions are over now. These days transformation (http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd4w3DPICSYGZbn76kTCxoJRUfV-P_NxUfW_9AP2C3IhyR0dFRQC-8hiw/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvd0ZNQUFzQUMvNElVRS82X0FfR1BK) is what they're aiming for, and looking at their websites, that is exactly what they are telling you. Unless of course you choose not to believe the military when it comes to military matters.
No. I don't. Cause thats what they said after the last reductions. And before that.




I don't. But then, I'm not a patriot either.
Yeah. I know.

By the way, do you know how much of their own stuff US soldiers are taking to Iraq? There was even a thread about the government bitching about them taking their own kevlar vests.
I don't give a shit about Americans.


Which would be a gigantic waste of money, as well as against the wishes of the population.
A militarised military gets you gigantic insurgencies and 3000 coffins being sent home.
What? What the heck your talking about? Insurgencies? Where? Bavaria?

japan rewrote their laws after ww2 [with us/etc urgings] to only have small self defense forces - times change - they need to protect themselves and not require us troops to enforce their safety

Yes they should, China be damned!
*China wont like it*

Uh... riiiiight. Japan does have the second largest economy on the planet. Japan does have a very capable military backed up with the US 7th Fleet, more Marines than you can shake a stick at, and other ascpects of the most powerful military on the planet. And Japan is covered under the US nuclear umbrella.

Now what part of that means Japan must be subserviant to the PRC?

Japan's reliance on the US will become evermore anachronistic in the century.
An antagonistic relationship toward the PRC and its client state NK will set it
against the world's emerging premier power, viz - the PRC. The 7th Fleet cannot protect Taiwan if the PRC decides to take it -- much less can the US defend Japan. It is doubtful that the Japanese would want to absorb a nuclear attack from either NK or China. It is certainly doubtful the US would go to war with China over Taiwan. American willingness to go to war in behalf of China would depend on the Japanese willingness to go to war itself. It is doubtful the Japanese would be willing to stand up to that challenge.

Why should Japan adopt a hostile policy toward PRC/NK? As the US slides in military power, political will and economic influence, how very much more productive would it be for Japan to slide under a different and Asian umbrella, to become a partner with the PRC instead of an adversary? As the 7th Fleet and other US military assets prepare to leave Okinawa -- at Japanese request, Japan is already distancing from its obsolescent vassalage vis-a-vis the US. Why not accelerate the power shift?

NV Mihn

While that's not exactly a lot historically, Germany could still probably kick any other chocolate producing country's ass. :D
Switzerland? Yum, Toblerone! *drools*

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/intro.htm

Japan already has substantial armed forces. They are designed for defending Japan. The question Japan is pondering is whether or not they should be allowed pre-emptive strikes on North Korean missile sites.

Switzerland? Yum, Toblerone! *drools*
or belgium

Didn't Belgium have a mint fortress that was supposedly impenetrable in WW2 and the Germans took it? On paper you can say what you like but all the tables you guys keep linking to don't take into effect terrain, motivation, conditions and ability. The Russians in WW1 had wooden rifles(as in didn't fire bullets), and were massacred due to this despite superior numbers. The Americans struggled in Vietnam because they weren't used to fighting in jungles (and other reasons but I'm making an example here). The Germans couldn't cope with the Russian winter in WW2. The RAF beat the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain, again due to tactical error but because of superior machines and better pilots. You can't rank nations on military power and use it to make judgements on other things. I personally don't think the USA could win a war in Iran, despite the figures on some of these sites. I personally think the Japanese despite having an army would lose a war aginst any of its neighbours unless it rearms. Throughout history we have been taught numbers aren't everything, like the true story in 300 Spartans (its a movie now). Quality is what matters, you can see it in the US in these lists, but countries like Great Britain don't fair too well in a lot of these lists yet I think Britain would be a formidable enemy to anyone except the big 3, USA, China and Russia.

Hey, I'm not the one claiming that one of those Korean missles was aimed at Hawaii.

:rolleyes:

Yes. And the Allies can take Article 9, AND SHOVE IT UP THEIR ASSES.

Err - did you have a relavant point to make, or are you just swearing because you think it's cool? As is, your post looks dumbassish....

You DID read that Article 9 was a Japanese creation, did you not? You may also know (or not) that the US has been putting pressure on Japan to scrap Article 9 for some time now. About a half a year to a year ago when amending Japan's constitution was the big thing, America put a lot of pressure for a re-write.

It's Japan's population that's skittish about removing or changing Article 9. The Diet cannot even agree how to do it, let alone actually do it.

All the violations of Article 9 go back to MacArthur's creation of the NPR in 1950 in violation of Article 9.

Japanese tourists avoid it like the plague.

Would that be why many of my students come back from their Hawaiian vacations with their pictures of the Arizona memorial?

I'm confused by this entire discussion.

I've looked at the charts and stats of military power but...where are the ninjas? Japan doesn't need an army, they just need a handful of master ninja guys who can sink ships, catch nukes in the air and perform WMD roundhouse kick attacks on the enemy. Where are the ninjas?

On a serious note though...yes, I think Japan should buff up it's navy and airforce. NK is a fucktard of a national neighbur and I wouldn't trust China either. Japan has the luxury of beeing an island so it doesn't need a huge army as long as the navy and airforce is strong.

Err... I suggest you get a clue before getting laughed out of this thread...

Didn't Belgium have a mint fortress that was supposedly impenetrable in WW2 and the Germans took it? On paper you can say what you like but all the tables you guys keep linking to don't take into effect terrain, motivation, conditions and ability. The Russians in WW1 had wooden rifles(as in didn't fire bullets), and were massacred due to this despite superior numbers. The Americans struggled in Vietnam because they weren't used to fighting in jungles (and other reasons but I'm making an example here). The Germans couldn't cope with the Russian winter in WW2. The RAF beat the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain, again due to tactical error but because of superior machines and better pilots. You can't rank nations on military power and use it to make judgements on other things. I personally don't think the USA could win a war in Iran, despite the figures on some of these sites. I personally think the Japanese despite having an army would lose a war aginst any of its neighbours unless it rearms. Throughout history we have been taught numbers aren't everything, like the true story in 300 Spartans (its a movie now). Quality is what matters, you can see it in the US in these lists, but countries like Great Britain don't fair too well in a lot of these lists yet I think Britain would be a formidable enemy to anyone except the big 3, USA, China and Russia.

I thought we were talking about chocolates.
My poor i was so wrong

Didn't Belgium have a mint fortress that was supposedly impenetrable in WW2 and the Germans took it?
Yes. Eben Emael. 85 lightly armed German paratroopers against a heavily armed, fortified 1200 men strong garrison.

As you would expect from Japan, it's mostly the latest and greatest.

Some examples not yet mentioned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_90
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as38-e.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/oyashio.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongo_class_destroyer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atago_class_destroyer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/f-15j.htm

So basically, in my opinion the country already has rearmed. It's just semantics, and how ready politicians and the people are to use the means at their disposal.


you are forgetting GODZILLA...no one will mess with japan as long as they have GODZILLA .

Well, "defence" obviously had to be creatively interpreted if the Soviets are going to march through the place with 15,000 tanks.

Ah, I love enjoinders. :)

Nonetheless, the doctrine for the armoured forces is a defensive one only, and the constitution still talks of "Verteidigungsfall (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verteidigungsfall)", in which all sorts of changes happen to the way the country works and is run. So Germany can't declare war, but it can take part in NATO or UN operations (alá Kosovo or Afghanistan).

And strictly speaking it's 5+ divisions (http://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a/heer/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd483N7YASYGYZu7m-pEwsaCUVH1fj_zcVH1v_QD9gtyIckdHRUUAiIq5xg!!/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfR182SDA!?yw_contentURL=%2FC1256F87004CF5AE%2FW26JFAJF947INFODE%2Fcontent.jsp ), plus the Franco-German Brigade and other such smaller units.

I stand corrected! (How'd I undercount by 2?)

I'm still wondering why the Germans would water down a perfectly good Brigade by teaming up with the French. ;)

Deploy? Yes. "Strike"? Probably not.

Maybe they should have a look at buying one of those CVF carriers. Pity that they don't have the money for it. For a carrier of that size, they seem remarkably cost-effective, and the Brits have already done all the hard work!

True, true! But in reality, what the EU nations desperately need is AIR LIFT capability. Right now it would take something like 30 days to deploy 4% of EU forces anywhere without using America's Airlift capability. That's bad.

The German government has been doing exactly what every other government in Europe (http://ftp.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=2976&sequence=2) has done after the Cold War..

Which is a pity. It keeps Europe a second rate power that is forever hiding behind the US.
It also makes European diplomacy in most cases a joke. You really think that it's EU action that will change anything in Iran? How about North Korea? Signs say no. At least, it hasn't worked over the past few decades.

Which would be a gigantic waste of money, as well as against the wishes of the population.
A militarised military gets you gigantic insurgencies and 3000 coffins being sent home.

Only 3000? That's damned cheap given the liberation of millions and killing the guy that planned killing 3000+ of ours on our own soil.

I won't even get into how men were wasted in previous wars (I'm sure you're well aware of that).
While all loss of life is tragic, Afghanistan was certainly warrented and Iraq may yet still turn out to have been the best thing to happen to the Middle East since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. (I'm still only giving it a 1 in 4 chance of actual success, mind you.)

All the violations of Article 9 go back to MacArthur's creation of the NPR in 1950 in violation of Article 9.
Yup, but I was mentioning the tempest in a tea cup that was Japan's seeking a seat on UNSC; I remember reading that the US State Department more or less told Japan that to gain US backing, Japan would have to drop Article 9.

Japan's reliance on the US will become evermore anachronistic in the century.
An antagonistic relationship toward the PRC and its client state NK will set it
against the world's emerging premier power, viz - the PRC.
China is aming to become another superpower, but it still has a very long way to go before it can even think of matching the US. For one thing, it can't project it's forces anywhere they can't march to.

The 7th Fleet cannot protect Taiwan if the PRC decides to take it -- much less can the US defend Japan.
Never seen the damage that a US carrier group can do, have you? China's already been checked a number of times by the US bringing a carrier group into the straight when China decides to saber rattle. The US can check China, it cannot fight a land war in China, but it can check it. And between the SDF and US forces in Japan, it can defend Japan as well.

If China could even GET troups to Japan, which it can't.

It is doubtful that the Japanese would want to absorb a nuclear attack from either NK or China. It is certainly doubtful the US would go to war with China over Taiwan.
It's doubtful that North Korea or China wants to take a retalitory strike from the US either. And the US will go to war over Taiwan because legally we're bound to. That law has never been repealed. It's become a secnd Mexican Standoff in the region, as long as China doesn't attempt a military strike on Taiwan, the US will keep the One China Policy and get Taiwan to back off of independance, just as long as Bejing doesn't suddenly decide to try and take that island.

BTW, as much as everyone yells about North Korea, they don't have ICBMs yet. They have nukes, but not small enough to fit on anything yet.

Why should Japan adopt a hostile policy toward PRC/NK? As the US slides in military power, political will and economic influence, how very much more productive would it be for Japan to slide under a different and Asian umbrella, to become a partner with the PRC instead of an adversary?
Why should Japan be subserviant to China? Japan will look where it will, not the PRC.

As the 7th Fleet and other US military assets prepare to leave Okinawa -- at Japanese request, Japan is already distancing from its obsolescent vassalage vis-a-vis the US. Why not accelerate the power shift?
The US 7th Fleet is based in Yokosuka, it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Marines in Okinawa are being moved around, to Guam or mainland Japan, but the US will still have a large presence in Japan for a long time to come.

And if you think Japan is pulling away, you didn't see Prime Minister Koizumi's Elvis vacation with President Bush, did ya?