NationStates Jolt Archive

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060628/D8IH86U00.html

"Jun 28, 9:25 AM (ET)

By JOE MILICIA

(AP) Milking equipment hangs in the milkhouse of Arlie Stutzman in Mount Hope, Ohio, Thursday, June 1,...
Full Image

MOUNT HOPE, Ohio (AP) - Arlie Stutzman was busted in a rare sting when an undercover agent bought raw milk from the Amish dairy farmer in an unlabeled container."

Now is this a reasonable law and should Arlie be prosicuted for selling raw milk to an undercover agent? I know that pasturizing milk kills bacteria, but is raw milk that dangerous or is it a good healthy food as some people claim? I honestly don't know.

Oh, and the agent brought the container, Arlie filled it up and the agent paid $2.00.

Not really

Over the top. But I bet that undercover agent is a laughing stock at his HQ, for his milk bust.

Raw milk is only dangerous if it's not properly refrigerated or prepared and if the cattle themselves are unhealthy.

The risk here would be that there's no way to verify the safety of the milk and so if it were resold by another company there could be health issues and it could be damaging to certified producers of organic raw milk as well as Amish farmers, especially if the purchaser contaminated the milk and then tried to blame it on the farmers.

A strange high pitched noise has been noted from the grave of Louis Pasteur, as if something inside was spinning like a turbine.

This law is perfectly unreasonable, as long as you don't mind getting salmonellosis, brucellosis, tuberculosis, listeriosis, campylobacteriosis and so on and so forth...

This law is perfectly unreasonable, as long as you don't mind getting salmonellosis, brucellosis, tuberculosis, listeriosis, campylobacteriosis and so on and so forth...
If it's so bad, then people won't purchase it.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060628/D8IH86U00.html

"Jun 28, 9:25 AM (ET)

By JOE MILICIA

(AP) Milking equipment hangs in the milkhouse of Arlie Stutzman in Mount Hope, Ohio, Thursday, June 1,...
Full Image

MOUNT HOPE, Ohio (AP) - Arlie Stutzman was busted in a rare sting when an undercover agent bought raw milk from the Amish dairy farmer in an unlabeled container."

Now is this a reasonable law and should Arlie be prosicuted for selling raw milk to an undercover agent? I know that pasturizing milk kills bacteria, but is raw milk that dangerous or is it a good healthy food as some people claim? I honestly don't know.

Oh, and the agent brought the container, Arlie filled it up and the agent paid $2.00.
God Damned Government.

We grew up drinking raw milk, as did a number of our neighbors. This homogenized/pasturized thing is only to keep it fresh for the big chain supermarkets. Not for someone that only buys a couple days worth at a time.

I'll say it again. God Damned Government. We're letting them run all over us.

No, the law is reasonable. The problem isn't that he sold raw milk - it's that it wasn't labelled as such. The consumer can't make the choice against possible contaminants in raw milk if he/she doesn't know whether or not it is, in fact, raw milk.

So, a law against the sale of raw milk reasonable? No. A law against the sale of raw milk without being labelled as such reasonable? Yes.

If it's so bad, then people won't purchase it.

Yeah, because that worked so well in the past, and especially when it isn't labelled, so you can't even make that choice. :rolleyes:

This quite saddens me. Why does a consumer not have the right to choose the type of milk they want? Governments always want to restrict something for the "greater good", which usually means someone gets shafted.

This quite saddens me. Why does a consumer not have the right to choose the type of milk they want? Governments always want to restrict something for the "greater good", which usually means someone gets shafted.

No, the consumer can! The problem was that the container wasn't labelled as containing raw milk, not that raw milk was being sold.

No, the consumer can! The problem was that the container wasn't labelled as containing raw milk, not that raw milk was being sold.
But the buyer brought the container. There has to be a limit on the amount of 'mothering' the government gives us. Otherwise, we'll turn into an EU, where the chicken eggs are individually labeled.

Situations like this underline the absurdity of alot of government power. Can we really as a nation breathe more easily because the Amish aren't sharing milk(at least without fear of agents keeping an eye on them)?

The point here isn't that we're being really protected by laws against the sale of raw milk, last I checked there aren't really any epidemics of large dairy companies trying to sell us raw milk rather than pastuerized milk. This is a private, rather obscure trade of milk between some folks who are assumably aware that it's not pasteurized and we'd all be better off if that same effort were channelled against possible terrorist or just normal criminals.

But the buyer brought the container. There has to be a limit on the amount of 'mothering' the government gives us. Otherwise, we'll turn into an EU, where the chicken eggs are individually labeled.
Labeling food isn't about the government being "mommy" it's about NOT killing people. I don't like the government in my day to day life much either, but there are things I need the government for, things I can't do. One of them is labeling food to keep me safe. If I don't know exactly what is in what I eat, I can get very sick, like near death sick. The labeling laws still have a way to go, and I spend 1 hour or two on the phone everyday with companies trying to get them to be more clear with thier ingredient statements. I recently found out that a food that I had been eating was making me sick, because the company had not fully disclosed the ingredients, I spent time looking, writing down everything I ate, double checking everything, getting sicker and sicker. This is something the government needs to do, ingredients and how a food is prepared needs to be known, and displayed clearly. If someone wants to drink raw milk, that's thier thing, but if someone wants to sell it, they need to label it.

No, the law is reasonable. The problem isn't that he sold raw milk - it's that it wasn't labelled as such. The consumer can't make the choice against possible contaminants in raw milk if he/she doesn't know whether or not it is, in fact, raw milk.

So, a law against the sale of raw milk reasonable? No. A law against the sale of raw milk without being labelled as such reasonable? Yes.

But the agent who bought the milk brought his own jug. The farmer filled it from the milk cooler on the farm. The cooler might have been lablled MILK.

Yeah, because that worked so well in the past, and especially when it isn't labelled, so you can't even make that choice. :rolleyes:

But the agent who bought it brought his own unlabled jug. So, shouldn't the agent be charged with posession of unlabled milk? :eek:

But the agent who bought it brought his own unlabled jug. So, shouldn't the agent be charged with posession of unlabled milk? :eek:

It is the seller that must inform about the milk he sells.

Otherwise, we'll turn into an EU, where the chicken eggs are individually labeled.

Are you serious? Each egg is labled? Why, in God's name why? Ok, I guess it does drive up the price of eggs and started a whole new egg lableing industry but Jes....

Are you serious? Each egg is labled? Why, in God's name why? Ok, I guess it does drive up the price of eggs and started a whole new egg lableing industry but Jes....

It's just some red ink on the top... or something like ink.

Are you serious? Each egg is labled? Why, in God's name why? Ok, I guess it does drive up the price of eggs and started a whole new egg lableing industry but Jes....

It's not an actual label, but a stamp.

Labeling food isn't about the government being "mommy" it's about NOT killing people. I don't like the government in my day to day life much either, but there are things I need the government for, things I can't do. One of them is labeling food to keep me safe. ....

What part of "the guy who bought the milk brought his own container" didn't you understand? Hell, if he were so concerned "what was in it" he could have taken it to a lab and had it tested, or not bought it. It isn't like this milk was on the shelf in the local grocery store. :rolleyes:

My grandma grew up at a farm, and she always drank raw milk... She's almost 80 and healtier then most of that age.

THINK PEOPLE, THINK!
If it would be that unhealty, there wouldn't be so many humans today, don't you think? humanity has been drinking raw milk for millenia before someone invented something to preserve it longer. Of course, you shouldn't save it so long, but it won't kill you, unless you have a terrible allergy, in which case you shouldn't drink milk at all. No offence to anyone what so ever, but DUH!

What part of "the guy who bought the milk brought his own container" didn't you understand? Hell, if he were so concerned "what was in it" he could have taken it to a lab and had it tested, or not bought it. It isn't like this milk was on the shelf in the local grocery store. :rolleyes:

And the person who sold the milk knew that it was illegal to sell it, and could have chosen not to sell it.

I don't have a problem with raw milk being sold. Granted, I wouldn't buy it, and it should be mandatory for it to be labeled as raw. But as long as the consumer is aware of what they're buying, what's the harm?

It's not an actual label, but a stamp.

And the purpose of this label or stamp it to ....collect money for the government stamp...give someone a job stamping eggs...gurantee the egg is a "real" egg...?
What? What is the purpose of stamping eggs?

My grandma grew up at a farm, and she always drank raw milk... She's almost 80 and healtier then most of that age.

And I've seem a person die of listeria he got from an unpasteurised dairy product. See - I have anecdotes, too.

THINK PEOPLE, THINK!
If it would be that unhealty, there wouldn't be so many humans today, don't you think? humanity has been drinking raw milk for millenia before someone invented something to preserve it longer. Of course, you shouldn't save it so long, but it won't kill you, unless you have a terrible allergy, in which case you shouldn't drink milk at all. No offence to anyone what so ever, but DUH!

There are reasons people lived a lot shorter lives way back when, and one of them was poor hygiene. Raw milk is just that - poor hygiene. One of the greatest accomplishments of any civilisation is dealing with the issue of unsanitary conditions.

And the person who sold the milk knew that it was illegal to sell it, and could have chosen not to sell it.

Read the article and you will understand why he chose to sell it. Yes, it was against the law, but my God doesn't law enforcement have anything better to do? That's like arresting someone for spitting on the sidewalk.

Otherwise, we'll turn into an EU, where the chicken eggs are individually labeled.

Uhm, ya know, that's only so people know which kind of egg they buy, as in, how well the chickens are being treated. Just so people have a choice. And it's indeed just a stamp, it hardly takes any time thanks to machines.

Meh, just felt like clearing it up ^^;

And the purpose of this label or stamp it to ....collect money for the government stamp...give someone a job stamping eggs...gurantee the egg is a "real" egg...?
What? What is the purpose of stamping eggs?

"The mandatory marking of grade A eggs (fresh eggs for human consumption) by a code designating the producer and farming method enters into force on January 1, 2004. Each egg produced in the EU has to be stamped individually with one of the following codes indicating the farming method: O = organic, 1 = free range, 2 = barn, 3 = cage."

The labelling is there for the consumer to make an informed choice.

My grandma grew up at a farm, and she always drank raw milk... She's almost 80 and healtier then most of that age.

THINK PEOPLE, THINK!
If it would be that unhealty, there wouldn't be so many humans today, don't you think? humanity has been drinking raw milk for millenia before someone invented something to preserve it longer. Of course, you shouldn't save it so long, but it won't kill you, unless you have a terrible allergy, in which case you shouldn't drink milk at all. No offence to anyone what so ever, but DUH!
The ability to actually drink cow milk into adulthood is a rare trait int he world.
Additionally, people died much younger due to disease, such as e. coli. Anecdotes don't prove anything, so don't waste your time.

Read the article and you will understand why he chose to sell it. Yes, it was against the law, but my God doesn't law enforcement have anything better to do? That's like arresting someone for spitting on the sidewalk.

No, this is like arresting someone who through wilful negligence puts someone at risk of disease. Apart from the fact that this person was not arrested at all, just had his licence revoked.

But the agent who bought the milk brought his own jug. The farmer filled it from the milk cooler on the farm. The cooler might have been lablled MILK.
You have a poland springs water jug. You bring it to me to buy lye. I fill the poland springs water jug. You have it sitting on a counter, and one day, you or your wife grabs it and takes a big swig.

Yes, that is much more extreme. However, there are specific laws that state the container holding anything must be properly labled. As smunkee said, this can be life and death for some people (by the way, smunkee, sorry to hear that you were so sick). The issue is not, nor will it ever be, the sale of raw milk. The issue is that the container was unlabled. The farmer should have taken a sharpie and written "raw milk" or "unpasturized" on the jar.

"The mandatory marking of grade A eggs (fresh eggs for human consumption) by a code designating the producer and farming method enters into force on January 1, 2004. Each egg produced in the EU has to be stamped individually with one of the following codes indicating the farming method: O = organic, 1 = free range, 2 = barn, 3 = cage."

The labelling is there for the consumer to make an informed choice.

Thanks for clearing that up.

And I've seem a person die of listeria he got from an unpasteurised dairy product. See - I have anecdotes, too.
Very sorry to hear that, but that's kinda like getting something from raw chicken. It can happen, but it doesn't mean it should be illigal. Most of the time, nothing ever happens. Besides, people can choose what they want to eat. If they don't know what they cause no one tells them, then I think it's right to do something about it. but only then.


There are reasons people lived a lot shorter lives way back when, and one of them was poor hygiene. Raw milk is just that - poor hygiene. One of the greatest accomplishments of any civilisation is dealing with the issue of unsanitary conditions.
Oh yes, there are a million reasons, and yes, that's one of them. Doesn't mean it's a real killer.
Oh, and a lot shorter? Way less shorter then you'd think. There were other, way more important factors as to you why they died sooner as well.

firstly, the ability to actually drink cow milk into adulthood is a rare trait int he world. Second of all, the issue isn't that he sold raw milk. It is that he did not lable the container.

I didn't mean just cowmilk, other type of milk is a lot more common, I know. Second, I wasn't yelling at that, but at the convo about raw milk being unhealthy ^^;

...sorry for yelling at all, btw >.>" Feel free to ignore me ^^;

"The problem isn't that he sold raw milk - it's that it wasn't labelled as such."


Actually, read the article. It was not that the milk was not labeled; it was that he sold it at all. Selling raw milk is illegal, apparently.

I didn't mean just cowmilk, other type of milk is a lot more common, I know. Second, I wasn't yelling at that, but at the convo about raw milk being unhealthy ^^;

...sorry for yelling at all, btw >.>" Feel free to ignore me ^^;
personally, I'm all for permitting the sale as long as it is labled.

I'm a huge fan of sushi. Every sushi place has the warning that I can get sick from eating raw fish. I choose to take that risk. Same with rare steak, etc.

the issue I have is not having a properly labled container. Even if the guy brought his own, he is probably not the only one who might drink that milk. His wife, children, friends, etc. might all drink from it and not want to drink raw milk. There is the potential for disease transmission, and that must be expressed in a clear manner.

Very sorry to hear that, but that's kinda like getting something from raw chicken.

Raw chicken also has many rules surrounding its handling and sales.

It can happen, but it doesn't mean it should be illigal.

Actually it is illegal to break those rules, and with good merit.

Most of the time, nothing ever happens.

That's because raw milk has been so curtailed, and poultry production made to conform to higher standards. Remove those, and I guarantee you, you'll be longing for the time when "nothing ever happened."

Besides, people can choose what they want to eat.

Doesn't mean someone should be able to sell it to them, especially not if the persons are uninformed, which most people tend to be.

If they don't know what they cause no one tells them, then I think it's right to do something about it. but only then.

One of the government's primary objectives is to protect the populace. A populace that cannot stay informed about each and every single out of the millions of dangers out there. So the government has rules and regulations that govern the production and sale of food items, just to name one thing.

Oh yes, there are a million reasons, and yes, that's one of them. Doesn't mean it's a real killer.

Actually, unsanitary conditions is one of the biggest killers worldwide still today. It is very much real in the developing world, through water and food contamination.

Oh, and a lot shorter? Way less shorter then you'd think.

A fifty per cent or so life expectancy drop compared to today is a lot.

There were other, way more important factors as to you why they died sooner as well.

So? Because there are other things that can kill people, we should not try to prevent this thing from killing them?

So? Because there are other things that can kill people, we should not try to prevent this thing from killing them?

I'm not saying that at all. I'm sorry, but I can't see raw milk as such a big threat. That's my point, basicaly.

That, and I have a hard time ignoring it when history is being missinterpretated/taught/ or in any other way misrepresented... It depends on which time and place you're exactly talking about, of course...
But I guess we shouldn't have a discussion about history in this treath, sorry ^^;

Raw milk should be regulated like any food product. But in properly maintained dairies, with healthy cattle and veterinary inspections, and proper sanitary procedures followed, there should be no problem. Many people consider raw milk to be healthier than pasteurized milk.

Personally, I prefer pasteurized, but that's what I grew up with.

But the buyer brought the container. There has to be a limit on the amount of 'mothering' the government gives us. Otherwise, we'll turn into an EU, where the chicken eggs are individually labeled.
The point of these laws is to benefit the large conglomerates and prevent smaller dairies from working out local deals for their milk. The Goverment effectively seeks to force smaller, often family run, dairies, which frequently produce a superior, fresher, or boutique product, to sell their milk to those that rule the market at a steep discount and then buy it back at a higher price. Far from being one government employee doing something insane, it's corporations buying insane laws which otherwise decent people are compelled to enforce under pain of losing their livelyhood. Screw some Amish guy you don't know, or look for another job and by the way, the Amish guys will get screwed by someone else anyway.

Funny how these are exactly the types of businesses the Republicans claim to champion. That doesn't prevent them from trying to frame the idea of putting these families out of business, destroying their way of life, and stealing their assets as a bullshit public health concern though. After all who could POSSIBLY accidently buy unpasturized milk? Like the idea would even occur to anyone who didn't grow up with it or have someone introduce them to it.

What part of "the guy who bought the milk brought his own container" didn't you understand? Hell, if he were so concerned "what was in it" he could have taken it to a lab and had it tested, or not bought it. It isn't like this milk was on the shelf in the local grocery store. :rolleyes:
It is the seller's responsibility to state or confirm that the milk is raw. People with certain medical conditions or on certain medications can get very sick from raw milk.

I highly recommend this particular article as it brings up several points about government regulation of farms.

http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/Salatin_Sept03.pdf

I happen to think that people have gotten unreasonable far from the concept of personal responsibility. If you do something stupid, it is not the fault of whomever you can blame for your mistake – sometimes you are to blame (though we cannot accept responsibility for our mistakes – after all… that company did not have a clear warning label telling me that jamming a pen up my nose might be harmful – and this red tablecloth, nowhere does it say that wearing this tablecloth like a cape does not give me the ability to fly like superman so obviously my falling off the roof is not my fault – so who do I sue?).

While manufacturers making a highly defective and dangerous product do need to be liable for the damages caused by defects, there needs to be a reasonable use clause. After all – there was no warning that while driving an RV you should not put it on cruise control and go into the back to make some coffee, but it was a bloody stupid thing to do and the makers of the RV should not have been held liable.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060628/D8IH86U00.html

"Jun 28, 9:25 AM (ET)

By JOE MILICIA

(AP) Milking equipment hangs in the milkhouse of Arlie Stutzman in Mount Hope, Ohio, Thursday, June 1,...
Full Image

MOUNT HOPE, Ohio (AP) - Arlie Stutzman was busted in a rare sting when an undercover agent bought raw milk from the Amish dairy farmer in an unlabeled container."

Now is this a reasonable law and should Arlie be prosicuted for selling raw milk to an undercover agent? I know that pasturizing milk kills bacteria, but is raw milk that dangerous or is it a good healthy food as some people claim? I honestly don't know.

Oh, and the agent brought the container, Arlie filled it up and the agent paid $2.00.
Hmm. In the few states where I have lived which had a sizable Amish population, they were able to sell "certified whole milk," which is inspected by the state on a regular basis to insure sanitary conditions, yet without being pasturized. When I drank it, I thought it tasted far better than what I could buy in the stores. Our youngest daughter drank certified whole milk almost exclusively since she couldn't keep down pasturized milk when she was little.

BTW ... the Amish make fantastic "country butter" too! :D

Sorry guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt raw milk contain some blood?

It's a tough one, my personal view is I wouldnt want to drink raw milk, but that's probably only because I've never had raw milk and have always been taught that it's bad for you.

Hmm.. I suppose just because something is against the law, doesnt always mean that it's wrong, or bad for you, depending on the motives.

I suppose if you know exactly where the raw milk is made, and especially if it's made in traditional ways (as in, not putting low amounts of antibiotics in cow's food, which cause their diseases to gain antibiotic resistance), then raw milk might be safer to consume. However, you would still take a risk of some food bourne pathogen, because you can never guarntee that there won't be disease in it.

okay, so, I google'd this, and it seems about half of the states say that it is illegal to buy or sell raw milk, but 46 out of 50 have passes some sort of ordinance...? I am too tired to understand facts.

It is the seller's responsibility to state or confirm that the milk is raw. People with certain medical conditions or on certain medications can get very sick from raw milk.
We don't know exactly how the transaction went, but one would presume the buyer asked for raw milk and the seller accomodated him. If the buyer, or anyone that will drink the milk he buys can be allergic -- that's not the seller's problem. Labeling for retail sales makes sense, but for private sales, like this, it's just too much.

It is the seller's responsibility to state or confirm that the milk is raw. People with certain medical conditions or on certain medications can get very sick from raw milk.

Actually -- it cannot be sold at all. That was the point of the article. Not that it was not labelled -- that it is illegal to sell.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060628/D8IH86U00.html

"Jun 28, 9:25 AM (ET)

By JOE MILICIA

(AP) Milking equipment hangs in the milkhouse of Arlie Stutzman in Mount Hope, Ohio, Thursday, June 1,...
Full Image

MOUNT HOPE, Ohio (AP) - Arlie Stutzman was busted in a rare sting when an undercover agent bought raw milk from the Amish dairy farmer in an unlabeled container."

Now is this a reasonable law and should Arlie be prosicuted for selling raw milk to an undercover agent? I know that pasturizing milk kills bacteria, but is raw milk that dangerous or is it a good healthy food as some people claim? I honestly don't know.

Oh, and the agent brought the container, Arlie filled it up and the agent paid $2.00.

The main reason that pasteurization of milk became law is because so many people died of typhoid spread by contaminated milk (not to mention all the other diseases that you could get).

It used to kill thousands of children a year.

Actually -- it cannot be sold at all. That was the point of the article. Not that it was not labelled -- that it is illegal to sell.
oh, well then. He broke the law didn't he?

I really don't see the problem with the sale of raw milk. At least not to people with the basic culinary skills to boil an egg (heck, they dont' even need to know how to boil something, just 80 degrees centigrate is enough). It's people's own damn business what food they buy.

Sorry guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt raw milk contain some blood? No more than regular milk and pasteurizing milk would not remove blood.
But unless a hairvessel popped in the cows teat, I don't see how blood would get in there in the first place. Besides, it'd be rather noticible if your milk turned red.

The ability to actually drink cow milk into adulthood is a rare trait int he world. That depends on what you define as rare, it's mostly a caucasian trait, isn't it?
And of course, other ethnic groups still use fermented dairy products. Which just introduces more bacteria. I'm not sure I'd call it raw, but it certainly isn't pasteurized (not traditionally at least).

And the purpose of this label or stamp it to ....collect money for the government stamp...give someone a job stamping eggs...gurantee the egg is a "real" egg...?
What? What is the purpose of stamping eggs?

Here is a link to help for egg stamps in the EU

http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodrin/poultry/traceability/eggstamping.pdf

personally, I'm all for permitting the sale as long as it is labled.

I'm a huge fan of sushi. Every sushi place has the warning that I can get sick from eating raw fish. I choose to take that risk. Same with rare steak, etc.

the issue I have is not having a properly labled container. Even if the guy brought his own, he is probably not the only one who might drink that milk. His wife, children, friends, etc. might all drink from it and not want to drink raw milk. There is the potential for disease transmission, and that must be expressed in a clear manner.

Then it is up to the purchaser to label his container that he brought. As it was his own container and not the sellers. The only thing the seller needs to do is tell the buyer it is raw milk etc. From then on it is the responsibility of the buyer and not the seller.

Labeling food isn't about the government being "mommy" it's about NOT killing people. I don't like the government in my day to day life much either, but there are things I need the government for, things I can't do. One of them is labeling food to keep me safe. If I don't know exactly what is in what I eat, I can get very sick, like near death sick. The labeling laws still have a way to go, and I spend 1 hour or two on the phone everyday with companies trying to get them to be more clear with thier ingredient statements. I recently found out that a food that I had been eating was making me sick, because the company had not fully disclosed the ingredients, I spent time looking, writing down everything I ate, double checking everything, getting sicker and sicker. This is something the government needs to do, ingredients and how a food is prepared needs to be known, and displayed clearly. If someone wants to drink raw milk, that's thier thing, but if someone wants to sell it, they need to label it.
I absolutely agree if it is distributed food. But if you bring your own container onto his property and ask for his milk you don’t bother taking the time to figure out what you came all the way there for and what risks it poses, you deserve what you get if you get sick from it.

I absolutely agree if it is distributed food. But if you bring your own container onto his property and ask for his milk you don’t bother taking the time to figure out what you came all the way there for and what risks it poses, you deserve what you get if you get sick from it.
sure except apparently it's illegal to sell raw milk there, so yeah... :D I am so out of this conversation.


I think it's illegal to sell raw milk around here but not illegal to drink it........:confused: I am going to have to look it up.

sure except apparently it's illegal to sell raw milk there, so yeah... :D I am so out of this conversation.


I think it's illegal to sell raw milk around here but not illegal to drink it........:confused: I am going to have to look it up.
Not something I compleatly agree with but yeah that is a bit more solid

read it in the paper 2 weeks ago.
Rather shit IYAM

I suppose if you know exactly where the raw milk is made,

Duhit's made by cows. :eek:

Then it is up to the purchaser to label his container that he brought. As it was his own container and not the sellers. The only thing the seller needs to do is tell the buyer it is raw milk etc. From then on it is the responsibility of the buyer and not the seller.
nope. The seller filled the bottle, and is thusly responsible for its contents. Always. No question about that at all, as he is the one who is certain what is going in, not the buyer.

That depends on what you define as rare, it's mostly a caucasian trait, isn't it?
And of course, other ethnic groups still use fermented dairy products. Which just introduces more bacteria. I'm not sure I'd call it raw, but it certainly isn't pasteurized (not traditionally at least).
rare=not common. As far as the world population is concerned, it is a rare trait. IE, most do not have it. It is, however, fairly common among caucasians (although, it would seem that it is becoming less so possibly).

and the issue is which bacteria. salmonella is the biggest threat with dairy, but e. coli is also a huge risk, neither of which are nice bugs. There are hundreds upon thousands of bacteria that are not only safe, but beneficial to consume. However, I'd rather not consume those and not have to risk salmonella.

and the issue is which bacteria. salmonella is the biggest threat with dairy, but e. coli is also a huge risk, neither of which are nice bugs.
If you're a small child, elderly, or have an underachieving immune system, sure. He's an adult. He wants to drink milk the way humans have for around 10 millenia. He's a big boy. He doesn't need a nanny.

We don't know exactly how the transaction went, but one would presume the buyer asked for raw milk and the seller accomodated him. If the buyer, or anyone that will drink the milk he buys can be allergic -- that's not the seller's problem. Labeling for retail sales makes sense, but for private sales, like this, it's just too much.
According to the article, the agent asked for some milk. The Amish man was leary, but filled his jug with milk from a metal container. The man gave him two dollars.

I'm sorry, but that sounds like being neighborly or friendly. Someone asks you for flour, you go, and give them a few cups of flour. As a way of saying thank you, they give you a few bucks. Why should raw milk be different?

Arrrrgh, I feel like this is entrapment. He didn't have a stand out where he was selling the milk from. Someone came, specifically asked for it, and reimbursed him. From the way the article is written, it doesnt even sound like the Amish man asked for payment, it seems the agent felt $2 was appropriate.