NationStates Jolt Archive

I think you're quite wrong about that, you're just too busy being guilty for being white.

I am not guilty for my skin color.

Those two have done great things for the black community. It is past tense for a reason. Their efforts are more harmful than helpful, however, as they are simply pandering to the DNC because of their personal hatred of the Republican Party, and misleading the blacks to get the DNC votes. They need to take a seat.

It couldn't be that the democratic party has continually been more responsive to the black community? That the democratic party has continually been more supportive of civil right reforms? That the democratic party has been more supportive of welfare policies that are very needed in poor communities?

Your idea that Sharpton and Jackson are intentionally screwing over black people to garner votes for the DNC is the most retarded thing I have ever heard.

When it comes to issues that affect the black community, the democratic party has a long-standing history of sharing the opinions of black interests groups.

I don't hear encouraging words coming from them, I just hear hate. Instead of encouraging the black community, they instead simply pass everything on to the "evil oppressive (right-wing) whities."

I guess the portion in quotes was taken directly out of one of their statements?

Perhaps you can show some quotes where they express hatred of white people.

Well, you will dismiss it entirely as bunk, simply because if it disagrees with you, it's false, but I read this book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0785263314/103-6608324-4828667?v=glance&n=283155) and from hearing various news reports on TV and radio, only confirmed it. I'm looking for internet stuff, but it was predominantly things I heard and saw, not read on the 'net.

I cannot dismiss the argument, because I don't know what his argument is (it apparently revolves around spirituality).

However, I cannot understand how you claim that Jackson and Sharpton "have worked to undermine the intelligence and integrety of the American black communities" with a book written by a man with these gems:

"The lack of moral character and responsibility is what has put most of the evacuees in the dire situation they're in-not the lack of federal money. In order to rebuild a better New Orleans, the character of the people there has to change -- otherwise, it will be rebuilt as another crime-ridden 'chocolate city.'"

When asked by Alan Colmes, “You said blacks lack moral character. Is that your view of African-Americans?” he replied, “Not all blacks, Alan, but most.”

Even the book you reference has a title entitled "Why Black Women Are So Mean".

To the very question we are discussing: “Instead of reparations,” Peterson proposed, “how ‘bout a free ticket back to Africa?”

He has an obsession for Jesse Jackson that has even led to a lawsuit. He has also consistently lied about and misrepresented the black community.




You have to understand, it will be difficult, because -- and I know you're not that stupid -- no one in the DNC will come out and say "blacks are incompetent," as that would spell their downfall.

I am not that stupid, so an explanation of all of these things you heard and saw should help me along to your conclusion, even if it is not explicit statements by the DNC.

Well, that's what it is being used for.

Any evidence?

Condie Referred to as an "Aunt Jemima" (http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/20579/)

So a white radio host calls Rice "Aunt Jamima", a 60 year old entertainer calls Powell an "Uncle Tom", and that outweighs the poll (http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/poll15.html) asking blacks who is the most important black leader, in which Rice was second and Powell was third.

Keep dismissing it, keep apologizing because you're white. You are in the same boat as Sharpton. You may think you're helping them, but you will only hurt them by continuing to force them to lean on handouts and gifts.

As Oprah Winfrey said, "The best cure for racism is excellence."

So blacks should be forced to continuously outperform whites in order to prove themselves equal?

When it comes to issues that affect the black community, the democratic party has a long-standing history of sharing the opinions of black interests groups.

I'd modify that slightly.

When it comes to issues that affect the black community, the Democratic Party has a long-standing history of holding opinions closer than those of the Republicans to the opinions of Black interest groups and of the Black community in general.

I'd modify that slightly.

When it comes to issues that affect the black community, the Democratic Party has a long-standing history of holding opinions closer than those of the Republicans to the opinions of Black interest groups and of the Black community in general.

Yes, that is true.

The problem is not that people were racist a century and a half ago, the problem is that they're racist today. Black people are still far more likely to get convicted when standing trial than whites, to mention one thing. Besides that, there is some pretty deep-rooted prejudice ingrained into us by the media and all those other bastards out there.

The problem is not that people were racist a century and a half ago, the problem is that they're racist today. Black people are still far more likely to get convicted when standing trial than whites, to mention one thing. Besides that, there is some pretty deep-rooted prejudice ingrained into us by the media and all those other bastards out there.

And most of that stems from the routinely exascerbated and ignored state of the black people in this country by the federal and state governments.

Italians have been paying back with pizzas.

Fuck your stereotypes.

But, yes, we've paid our debt with enough tomato sauce and mozeralla to drown the entire Eastern seaboard. :p

Your idea that Sharpton and Jackson are intentionally screwing over black people to garner votes for the DNC is the most retarded thing I have ever heard.

Welcome to politics.

When it comes to issues that affect the black community, the democratic party has a long-standing history of sharing the opinions of black interests groups.

To grab their votes, obviously. Why do you think the Democrats want to give all the Mexicans citizenship, or why do you think the Republicans play to the religious white citizens of this country?

Your politicians aren't the most honorable people, unfourtunatly.

I guess the portion in quotes was taken directly out of one of their statements?

Perhaps you can show some quotes where they express hatred of white people.

Unfourtunatly, many blacks (and other minorities, as well) tend to simply turn the white majority into scapegoats in order to mask their own inabilities to work themselves out of their often poor state.

To grab their votes, obviously.

Well, not entirely. There are, after all, lots of Black Democrats in Congress, who probably have other motives as well.

But, yes, it's superficial, politically-motivated support that, in practice, amounts to very little. The most that can be said about it is that it is preferable to the Republicans.

Unfourtunatly, many blacks (and other minorities, as well) tend to simply turn the white majority into scapegoats in order to mask their own inabilities to work themselves out of their often poor state.

An inability that can, at least to a considerable degree, be laid at the feet of the racism of the "white majority."

To grab their votes, obviously. Why do you think the Democrats want to give all the Mexicans citizenship, or why do you think the Republicans play to the religious white citizens of this country?

Your politicians aren't the most honorable people, unfourtunatly.

How do you think democracy works?

Unfourtunatly, many blacks (and other minorities, as well) tend to simply turn the white majority into scapegoats in order to mask their own inabilities to work themselves out of their often poor state.

Statistics show that blacks face institutionalized difficulties from within society and government. That is a valid "scapegoat".

It is unfortunate that a large portion develop hopelessness in the face of those difficulties where there is a good deal of hope.

Actually, no, this wasn't the point I intended to make, though it's fine, also - that part of reparations might be for the media to actually give a fuck when black people are killed.

Unfortuantly the media will want to appeal to white middle/middle-upper class suburbian Christain with 2.5 kids and a golden retreiver named Buddy. They will sell more news papers when it happens to some one that resembles them. It scares them more they think "what if it were me/my son/daughter/wife/other .5 of a kid". It won't get the same rise if people can stereotype it into "oh, it was his lifestyle choice". It's unfortunate but that is the was it is. We need to change that although I don't think monetary repairations are the way to do that. Putting money into programs for people who need help (black/white/asain/mexican/whatever) regardless of their race might.

I believe racism is more widespread than you think it is.
Assault is hardly the only example of racism. Nonetheless, there are numerous complaints of police brutality, some justified, some not.

You know police beat on whites, too.

So blacks should be forced to continuously outperform whites in order to prove themselves equal?

everyone should reach for their full potential.

No. Why should I pay for the sins of my father? so to speak.


Yes, my relatives were slave owners. But hell, you could also spin it this way, they owe me money for damages caused by a slave revolt that destroyed one of my family's farms, and caused the death of my Great Great Uncle.


Do I regret the fact that my relatives were slave owners? Not especially. It was a terrible thing, and I resent the fact that it was in existance, but you can't blame white people.

Afterall, Whites didn't start the slave trade. Other black people did.

And another thing,


Why should these Black people now make money off of us? THEY WERE NOT AFFECTED BY THE SLAVE TRADE!

They didn't suffer as a result, so why should they recieve payment for nothing?

They didn't suffer as a result, so why should they recieve payment for nothing?

They suffer as a result of the racist structures that restrict their opportunities.

I don't know if I accept the moral argument for reparations, but I support them anyway because they aim to correct a present day problem that needs fixing. If you want to call them "reparations for slavery," do that; if you want to call them "tools for basic social justice" (or "fried chicken," for that matter) you can do that too. But it's something that should be done.

They suffer as a result of the racist structures that restrict their opportunities.

I don't know if I accept the moral argument for reparations, but I support them anyway because they aim to correct a present day problem that needs fixing. If you want to call them "reparations for slavery," do that; if you want to call them "tools for basic social justice" (or "fried chicken," for that matter) you can do that too. But it's something that should be done.
What benifit would payment for "fried chicken" do? What would giving someone an additional $50,000 do? $500,000? $5,000,000?

What benifit would a cash settlement do at all?

Bring about real social justice, but don't throw money at a problem, when there is every indication that it just wouldn't do a bit of good.

What benifit would payment for "fried chicken" do? What would giving someone an additional $50,000 do? $500,000? $5,000,000?

What benifit would a cash settlement do at all?

Most advocates of reparations, myself included, do not advocate simply mailing a check to every Black person in the country.

Edit: To clarify further, such "reparations" would consist of programs designed to alleviate the poverty and loss of opportunities caused by racial inequities in the US - affirmative action, funding for the improvement of conditions in poor Black communities, etc.

Hey, my ancestors were Vikings and does that mean we should either pay reparations for the slaves, cattle, and loot we took because it was centuries ago, me I think not. *Jumps into a huge pile of jewels and gold. Then after a few hours jumps into a longboat and starts pillaging English villages.* Really the same idea applies to more recent slavery as none of the current people could possibly have ever been a slave.

Hey, my ancestors were Vikings and does that mean we should either pay reparations for the slaves, cattle, and loot we took because it was centuries ago, me I think not.

If the victims are still suffering from systematic racially-motivated oppression at the hands of said Vikings, yes.

Since they're not, it's a moot point.

They suffer as a result of the racist structures that restrict their opportunities.
Bullshit. The "structures" of today are no longer racist. Any person can succeed. Are there no black millionares? Of course not. There are plenty. Therefore, your argument of some sort of "implied ceiling" on minorites is not only false, but itself racism.

And besides, with all this affirmative action bullcrap that's been going around in PC circles in the last decade, how any minority is having trouble is beyond me. Hell, it's white people who should make up all the homeless... :rolleyes:

Bullshit. The "structures" of today are no longer racist. Any person can succeed. Are there no black millionares? Of course not. There are plenty. Therefore, your argument is false.

This is your proof? That there are black millionares? Because there are black millionares, somehow our society cannot be racist? Because there are black millionares, the opportunities granted to whites and blacks are necessarily equal? Because there are black millionares - that is, because some blacks have succeeded - it is thus clearly possible for "any person" to succeed?

Your argument is ludicrous on its face.

Therefore, your argument of some sort of "implied ceiling" on minorites is not only false, but itself racism.

Well, your edit makes your argument a little better... but not much, because it means that you're arguing against a straw man. I never said there was some sort of absolute ceiling that, no matter what, no black person could ever surpass.

As for my argument being "racism," that is laughable; if anything is "racist," it is the "blame the victim" mentality so often expressed on these subjects. It is not "racist" to point out that there are racist systems of oppression in our current society.

Because there are black millionares - that is, because some blacks have succeeded - it is thus clearly possible for "any person" to succeed?.
In short, yes. ANY person can succeed if they have the willpower and determination. Hell, even the gangsta rap stars can be said to have succeeded. Dopping out of school and becoming a drug dealer are no ways to succeed in life, REGARDLESS of your race.

Well, your edit makes your argument a little better... but not much, because it means that you're arguing against a straw man. I never said there was some sort of absolute ceiling that, no matter what, no black person could ever surpass.

As for my argument being "racism," that is laughable; if anything is "racist," it is the "blame the victim" mentality so often expressed on these subjects. It is not "racist" to point out that there are racist systems of oppression in our current society.
You're argument is that somehow because "society is racist" and that they're black (the racism is right there), they can't succeed. How that's a straw man, or laughable, is beyond me.

In short, yes. ANY person can succeed if they have the willpower and determination.

The fact that some talented people with decent opportunities have managed to succeed doesn't mean that anyone can.

Hell, even the gangsta rap stars can be said to have succeeded.

In a manner of speaking, sure.

Dopping out of school and becoming a drug dealer are no ways to succeed in life, REGARDLESS of your race.

Weird; that has nothing to do with my argument.

The fact that some talented people with decent opportunities have managed to succeed doesn't mean that anyone can.
But they're black. Where is this societal racism you keep speaking about? How did they succeed then? Sorry, but this argument doesn't add up. Somehow, I'm to believe that society today is inherantly racist, but yet those in the race in question can still succeed. That does not make sense, at least not from a race standpoint. And this is not the thread to get started into an argument about social inequality between the classes.
Weird; that has nothing to do with my argument.
Yes, it does. It explains why they're in the situation in the first place.

You're argument is that somehow because "society is racist" and that they're black (the racism is right there),

Well, yes; their status as "Black" is relevant because society is racist against Blacks (among others). It is not an irrelevant aspect because racism makes it relevant. Not my racism, other people's.

they can't succeed.

I didn't say "they can't succeed."

What I said was:

They suffer as a result of the racist structures that restrict their opportunities.

But they're black. Where is this societal racism you keep speaking about? How did they succeed then?

They succeeded despite it. I don't see how this concept is so difficult for you to grasp. The fact that they succeeded does not mean that their opportunities were equal to those they would have received were they white, or that their cases were typical. The fact that it's possible for some Blacks to succeed does not mean that our society is color-blind. The distinction is quite simple.

Sorry, but this argument doesn't add up. Somehow, I'm to believe that society today is inherantly racist, but yet those in the race in question can still succeed. That does not make sense, at least not from a race standpoint.

I didn't say that society was "inherently racist." I don't believe in "inherent racism." I said that society - or more specifically, large numbers of people in society, including a good deal of those who hold the power - is racist.

Yes, it does. It explains why they're in the situation in the first place.

So you're really going to claim that the racial inequities in this country are solely due to Blacks "dropping out of school and becoming a drug dealer"?

heres b-i-g's plan,

all white people in a position of power should de facto be fired and never given the opportunity to move up. all wealthy white men should spanning from Rupert Murdoch to Tom Cruise should forfeit all there earnings and give it to the black communities. all white people should be forced to live in the ghetto and be denied the opportunity for advancement. all white members of gov't from federal, state, local should be removed and replaced with blacks. regardless of qualifications. all whites should be kicked out of colleges and all whites that make more than $6/hr should be forced in to recieving minimum wage checks.

since the white male is the root of all evil, by de facto they should be deported to africa as they are a burden on black society.

next since non-white immigrants benefited from a racist white mans system,they too should be treated the same way as whites. as they should be kicked out of power, stripped of their earnings, and deported.

and since it is the white mans system, it too should be destroyed, flags taken down, symbols blown up, and replaced by black mans gov't, flag, and symbols.

there you go, heres your reperations.

You're argument is that somehow because "society is racist" and that they're black (the racism is right there), they can't succeed. How that's a straw man, or laughable, is beyond me.

Your argument is a strawman, because no one is implying that there is a ceiling that black people cannot pass, nor that every single black man suffers oppressive racism.

Statistics show that on the aggregate, blacks within our society suffer from self-perpetuating socioeconomic disadvantages at a much greater rate than whites. These disadvantages stem from discriminatory policies instituted by the government, that, while later overruled, were never counteracted.

The fact that some talented people with decent opportunities have managed to succeed doesn't mean that anyone can.



In a manner of speaking, sure.



Weird; that has nothing to do with my argument.
Well, as they say, you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Anyone can succeed. Everyone has the same opportunity to pull themselves up out of the ghetto. But it takes determination to make something of themselves, and that just aint happening as much as it should be.

Perhaps addressing what is causing them not to take the opportunities that are available to them would be money better spent.

Anyone can succeed.

Questionable at best. But even if anyone "can" succeed, the fact of the matter is that it is far more difficult for some to succeed than others.

Everyone has the same opportunity to pull themselves up out of the ghetto.

Only not everyone starts in the ghetto.

But it takes determination to make something of themselves, and that just aint happening as much as it should be.

Perhaps so. Long-lasting obstacles do have the tendency to cause hopelessness. The solution is to get rid of those obstacles.

Questionable at best. But even if anyone "can" succeed, the fact of the matter is that it is far more difficult for some to succeed than others.



Only not everyone starts in the ghetto.



Perhaps so. Long-lasting obstacles do have the tendency to cause hopelessness. The solution is to get rid of those obstacles.
Read ghetto as a euphanism for whatever it might be that is limiting ones opportunities.

Read ghetto as a euphanism for whatever it might be that is limiting ones opportunities.

Which only makes my point have broader application.

But the reality is that everyone has opportunities. They just have to work for them. Some have to work harder than others. But they have to want to succeed. They have to want to better themselves.

The obstacles have already been removed... the hopelessness remains.

Treat the hoplessness.

But the reality is that everyone has opportunities.

Yes, "everyone has opportunities." There is a difference between "opportunities" and "equal opportunities."

They just have to work for them. Some have to work harder than others. But they have to want to succeed. They have to want to better themselves.

And you think they don't? Perhaps those trapped in poverty like it?

The obstacles have already been removed...

Nonsense.

the hopelessness remains.

Yes, it does.

Treat the hoplessness.

How?