NationStates Jolt Archive

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

In about 10 seconds the agnostics and atheists will show up and ask you the exact same question about religion

Different people derive joy from different things and most people can accquire their own morals.

Because they just dont believe in god...

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

Better seperate those.

Despite atheist claim to the contrary, agnosticism and atheism are as wildly apart as parliamentary opposition and terrorism.

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

I'm an Atheist cos I don't believe in God, simple. Being religious is nothing to do with getting money (unless you're the church, check out all the gold in the Vatican!) Happy people with strong moral values? What about all the extremists in all religions, you don't have to have faith to have good moral values or be happy. Your arguement doesn't add up.

Sure, just like 'socialism' and 'communism' aren't the same thing. I ain't buying it.

It's a parody thread. Shhh.

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

Because Homer Simpson has proved that there is no God.

We're just honest with ourselves.

Better seperate those.

Despite atheist claim to the contrary, agnosticism and atheism are as wildly apart as parliamentary opposition and terrorism.

I believe this also and I'm an atheist.:)

Because there is no reason to be anything else.

I believe this also and I'm an atheist.:)

*nods* I'm perfectly willing to live and let live with agnostics, in the confidence that the feeling is mutual. I used to be one. There is no history of mutual hate or dislike.


Not so with atheists.

I'm an athiest for the same reason you don't believe that there is a tea cup orbiting Pluto or that I have a giant invisible bunny friend that gives me advice.

I'm an athiest for the same reason you don't believe that there is a tea cup orbiting Pluto or that I have a giant invisible bunny friend that gives me advice.

...

You mean there's not a tea cup orbiting Pluto?

*nods* I'm perfectly willing to live and let live with agnostics, in the confidence that the feeling is mutual. I used to be one. There is no history of mutual hate or dislike.


Not so with atheists.

I believe in live and let live with everyone. If people want to believe in faries and the easter bunny then that's their right. I might laugh at them though!:D

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

You forgot to add that atheists drink the blood of babies. :eek:

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?
Religion, quite simply, is not necessary in the modern world. Science suffices: it provides answers; it provides a structure on which to place faith and beliefs; it provides hope for the future.

I'm an athiest for the same reason you don't believe that there is a tea cup orbiting Pluto or that I have a giant invisible bunny friend that gives me advice.

Yeah there is.... you just need to take the cap off the end of the telescope before you look through it.
:p

You forgot to add that atheists drink the blood of babies. :eek:

No, no, we inject baby fat to rid our selves of wrinkles. The blood isn't drunk, it's for blood sausages that we fashion into and use as masturbatory aids.

I believe in live and let live with everyone. If people want to believe in faries and the easter bunny then that's their right. I might laugh at them though!:D

You'll also have to live with the fact that we will use our parliamentary majority to make darned certain that the Government will say things that please us - and not you.

In about 10 seconds the agnostics and atheists will show up and ask you the exact same question about religion.
Well, if they do you can go ahead and accuse them of being off-topic.

You forgot to add that atheists drink the blood of babies. :eek:

Not in my realm.... we're still sacrificing virgins! Not to a god, just for fun! :D

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

Rush said it best:

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
"The stars aren't aligned -
Or the gods are malign"
Blame is better to give than receive.

Do you want to be a puppet? I don't.

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?I'm agnostic about the existence of the supernatural (including deities). I'm an atheist, because I don't believe in deities & divinity.

I feel no great need to mimic the beliefs of others. I'm happy with being who I am & thinking for myself. I'm a humanist & a great believer in the harm principle. I believe a sentient being has to define it's own ethics, if it is to be considered moral. I view the Abrahamic religions as absurd & amoral in the extreme, but am consoled somewhat by the fact that most of their followers don't actually adhere to the scripture.

I also believe organised religion is an inherently bad thing, and that it will eventually cease to exist in any meaningful way. It is too unreasonable to be convincing forever, and too divisive to remain profitable.

You'll also have to live with the fact that we will use our parliamentary majority to make darned certain that the Government will say things that please us - and not you.

The goverment says things to please us????? When did this happen?:confused:

Rush said it best:



Do you want to be a puppet? I don't.

Hah. So that's what your silly Atheist string theory is all about!

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

I think that if a person is agnostic/atheistic and treats other people well, they are more moral than religious people who treat other people well. Religious people do good things because 1. they are told to 2. they fear what will happen if they don't. Atheistic/agnostic people do good things because they know it's right without anyone having to tell them, just for the good of humanity.

I think that if a person is agnostic/atheistic and treats other people well, they are more moral than religious people who treat other people well. Religious people do good things because 1. they are told to 2. they fear what will happen if they don't. Atheistic/agnostic people do good things because they know it's right without anyone having to tell them, just for the good of humanity.

EXACTLY ;)

I think that if a person is agnostic/atheistic and treats other people well, they are more moral than religious people who treat other people well. Religious people do good things because 1. they are told to 2. they fear what will happen if they don't. Atheistic/agnostic people do good things because they know it's right without anyone having to tell them, just for the good of humanity.

Hah! Well your theory leaves out one vital point. No atheist or agnostic has ever done something good, ever!

On a more serious note, there's also the values of community respect, social advantage, and a whole range of other motives. Like tax breaks for giving to charity.

I'm an athiest for the same reason you don't believe that there is a tea cup orbiting Pluto or that I have a giant invisible bunny friend that gives me advice.

You mean Frank's been giving you advice too?

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

I don't believe religion has been proven to provide the most prosperity to the most people. Show me where this is true. I think religion has brought misery to many. Think the Crusades & the Spanish Inquisition for instance.

I don't actually want atheism, I just can't bring myself to believe that some supernatural power/being exists. It just sounds like total rubbish to me.

I see religion as a form of control, I don't believe in god and THAT is why I don't want it, to answer the OP's question.

The goverment says things to please us????? When did this happen?:confused:

If you don't miss 'em, you won't object to them being taken away.

Hah! Well your theory leaves out one vital point. No atheist or agnostic has ever done something good, ever!

On a more serious note, there's also the values of community respect, social advantage, and a whole range of other motives. Like tax breaks for giving to charity.

You're a twat.:D

I see religion as a form of control, I don't believe in god and THAT is why I don't want it, to answer the OP's question.

See? A rebel!

You mean Frank's been giving you advice too?



I don't believe religion has been proven to provide the most prosperity to the most people. Show me where this is true. I think religion has brought misery to many. Think the Crusades & the Spanish Inquisition for instance.

I don't actually want atheism, I just can't bring myself to believe that some supernatural power/being exists. It just sounds like total rubbish to me.

Church charities. A church creates a sense of community. The Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition were due to the influence of evil atheists trying to discredit religion.

If you don't miss 'em, you won't object to them being taken away.

fair enough. I won't miss 'em. :)

Church charities. A church creates a sense of community. The Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition were due to the influence of evil atheists trying to discredit religion.
Wow, that's industrial grade right there...

See? A rebel!

Yes, yes....I am rebel scum on my fight against the darkside (hiding behind "have you seen the light") :p

Not in my realm.... we're still sacrificing virgins! Not to a god, just for fun! :D

We don't sacrifice virgins in our atheist circle. We relieve them of that burden first. ;)

Do you want to be a puppet?

No, The Aeson just wants to be a troll, which people seem to be feeding quite profusely.

Church charities. A church creates a sense of community. The Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition were due to the influence of evil atheists trying to discredit religion.

It had nothing to do with Christians trying to convert or kill any other people of muslim beliefs then?

We don't sacrifice virgins in our atheist circle. We relieve them of that burden first. ;)

Maybe I'm hanging out in the wrong circles.....Hmm.....relieve them of their burden you say eh?:p

Yes, yes....I am rebel scum on my fight against the darkside (hiding behind "have you seen the light") :p


Ah - this makes for good... material.

Do you deny that the Monarchy is established over us by the Grace of God?

1.) socialism is an economic system and commmunism is a political system so no they are not the same thing.

2.) Who said religous people are happy. Opinion polls are bs because ppl lie. And most religous people are not happy they are in denial.

3.) What exactly is agnostice because my friends keep telling me something diffrent?

4.) the crusades was not started by atheists.

5.) Of course we still sacrafice virgins and what circle are you hanging out with? That you don't relieve them of that virgin before they die.

It had nothing to do with Christians trying to convert or kill any other people of muslim beliefs then?
I very much doubt they thought conversion was possible.

Ah - this makes for good... material.

Do you deny that the Monarchy is established over us by the Grace of God?

Indeed, it's all to do with invading germans (current monarchy anyhow).

Indeed, it's all to do with invading germans (current monarchy anyhow).

Guilty of rebellion.
Case closed.
Sentencing stage to begin next week.

I very much doubt they thought conversion was possible.
Exactly, Knights templar went in and massacred what they could.

I knew the motivational poster thread would be good for something :)

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4828/god5wm.jpg

3.) What exactly is agnostice because my friends keep telling me something diffrent?Someone who believes there's no definite objective answer to a particular question.

Most people are agnostic about the existence of unicorns, for example.

Sure, just like 'socialism' and 'communism' aren't the same thing. I ain't buying it.

It's a parody thread. Shhh.


If you think atheism and agnosticism are the same thing, then why do you feel the need to include both?

Atheism is the belief that there are no gods. Agnosticism is the belief that it is impossible to know whether there are any gods. In what sense are those the same?

I knew the motivational poster thread would be good for something :)

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4828/god5wm.jpg

Good for laughing at maybe.

Church charities. A church creates a sense of community. The Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition were due to the influence of evil atheists trying to discredit religion.

Yes, charities & a sense of community are both positive things. Neither of which is exclusive to religion.

How were The Crusades & the Spanish Inquisition due to atheists? They were committed or performed in the name of the Church.

You say athiests have never done anything good. Today I babysat my young nephew so that my sister & brother in law could have a day to catch up on other things they needed to do. I did that out of the goodness of my heart. I don't expect any type of payment or recompense for it. It's no world changing act, but it's an act of goodness nonetheless.

I don't get the poster.

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

1- You are implying that people should believe not what is true (or has the best likelihood), but what is "good for them". This is an argument consistently used for centuries by those who exploit people's credulity. The case for rationality of religious beliefs is clearly hopeless, which accounts for atheism. Those who do not want to embrace a belief on a subject of little cognitive meaning, settle for agnosticism.

2- Religion, in history, has not done well to people. In most cases, it fostered controversy, ignorance, and exploitation of man over man (see also 1-). Exceptions are overwhelmed by the weight of history.

Good for laughing at maybe.

If anyone can PROVE to me that GOD exists then I'll take it all back.

That's fair enough isn't it?:D

1.) socialism is an economic system and commmunism is a political system so no they are not the same thing.


Well put!

To the poster Amazonia's comment was directed to (can't remember the name) - you're probably confused because the USSR's original aim (Lenin) was communism; socialism was en route - and diverted from the politics of communism - by Stalin. True communism involves monetary equality across the board; socialism involves equality of the lower masses, whilst the higher orders benefit from the concentration of the majority of money in a few hands.

Motivational Poster: Religion never said god would flick the world. Religion would be wrong as well. The closest to being correct would be the Agnostics, since they didn't say anything for or against god or his flicking of the world.

Maybe I'm hanging out in the wrong circles.....Hmm.....relieve them of their burden you say eh?:p

Yep, that's the way of the future. You should change your methodolgy now, while there's still time. Competative market & all that. :)

Good for laughing at maybe.
I'm satisfied by a laugh. Should we demand anything more? :p

If anyone can [B][U][SIZE="4"]PROVE [SIZE="2"]to me that GOD exists then I'll take it all back.

That's fair enough isn't it?:D

Nope.
The only thing I accept as fair is.... lockstep.

So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?
It's not a matter of wanting to be atheist or agnostic. It's a matter of being incapable of forcing yourself to believe in a magical man or men and women in the sky who look after us and all that crap. And yes, atheism is quite a different thing to agnosticism.


I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure - that is all that agnosticism means.
Clarence Darrow

I'm satisfied by a laugh. Should we demand anything more? :p

Chocolate

Yep, that's the way of the future. You should change your methodolgy now, while there's still time. Competative market & all that. :)

Consider it done :p

I don't get the poster.
If there is a God, he might come around and break your windows...

1- You are implying that people should believe not what is true (or has the best likelihood), but what is "good for them". This is an argument consistently used for centuries by those who exploit people's credulity. The case for rationality of religious beliefs is clearly hopeless, which accounts for atheism. Those who do not want to embrace a belief on a subject of little cognitive meaning, settle for agnosticism.
Not so. To use myself for an example, I moved from strong belief (hard atheist) to agnosticism because of furthering my understanding of the meaning of god.

Nope.
The only thing I accept as fair is.... lockstep.

I did edit. :rolleyes:

I don't get the poster.


Go to a poster shop. They have loads of them there.

Chocolate
Ah. True. I applaud you :)

Mmmm... Chocolate :fluffle:

Consider it done :p

As long as you don't try to muscle in our turf. :p

Ah. True. I applaud you :)

Mmmm... Chocolate :fluffle:

Ok now you remind me of Sloth from the Goonies
:fluffle:

Go to a poster shop. They have loads of them there.
Haha, good play on words.

As long as you don't try to muscle in our turf. :p

I'll respect your boundaries and stick to the UK for now. :)

Not so. To use myself for an example, I moved from strong belief (hard atheist) to agnosticism because of furthering my understanding of the meaning of god.

"meaning"? :confused:

i am agnostic & want to believe in God, but I just dont see any proof of his existinse and I have extensive knowledge of natural history.

Hah. So that's what your silly Atheist string theory is all about!
String theory isn't atheistic. It's physics.

Not so. To use myself for an example, I moved from strong belief (hard atheist) to agnosticism because of furthering my understanding of the meaning of god.

To understand a meaning shouldn't change a belief. I understand the meaning of God and I don't believe in it.

The Chinese see their Emperor's as Gods. Just thought I'd add that random fact for no reason.:)

"meaning"? :confused:
Meaning, "the case for rationality of religious beliefs" being hopeless is only when they are taken out of context, as is the case with most athiests, because of a lack of understanding of the meaning of religious terminology.

It is not the agnostic who is settling for "little cognitive meaning".

EDIT: Grave_n_Idle excepted.

I think I'm Agnostic I mean I'm sure it would be fab to be a sheep and ignorent to other facts but I just can't do it. Believe that si it just doesn't make since to me.

Ok now you remind me of Sloth from the Goonies
:fluffle:
Hey, you guys!

:eek: Ruth! Ruth! Baby! Ruth!

To understand a meaning shouldn't change a belief. I understand the meaning of God and I don't believe in it.
Well, then I wonder if you understand what the myths mean.

The Chinese see their Emperor's as Gods. Just thought I'd add that random fact for no reason.:)
So do Christians and Rastafarians. I find it all fascinating, the whole "living god" concept.

Meaning, "the case for rationality of religious beliefs" being hopeless is only when they are taken out of context, as is the case with most athiests, because of a lack of understanding of the meaning of religious terminology.

It is not the agnostic who is settling for "little cognitive meaning".

Nope, the agnostic is being lazy and can't be bothered to decide what side of the fence they're on.

Hey, you guys!

:eek: Ruth! Ruth! Baby! Ruth!

Aw... man you're cool :cool:

I don't get the poster.

That's because I'm pretty sure the whole thing's a joke.

Nope, the agnostic is being lazy and can't be bothered to decide what side of the fence they're on.
Most agnostics are in a group that understands exactly what it is they believe. Those in the "undecided" group, in fact, we can snobbishly dismiss as "undecided" rather than true agnostic.

No, The Aeson just wants to be a troll, which people seem to be feeding quite profusely.

For the love of god(s) and or goddess(es) and or the lack thereof, it was a parody thread designed to show that just because you say one set of beliefs is inheirently better than the other, doesn't make it so!

Well, then I wonder if you understand what the myths mean.


So do Christians and Rastafarians. I find it all fascinating, the whole "living god" concept.

It's as rational as an omnipresent being.

Ok give me a myth and I'll give you an answer.

Nope, the agnostic is being lazy and can't be bothered to decide what side of the fence they're on.
No we're not.

I personally don't think it's possible to know one way or the other so I refuse to take a leap of faith and "choose a side" (an absurd expression in the first place).

Most agnostics are in a group that understands exactly what it is they believe. Those in the "undecided" group, in fact, we can snobbishly dismiss as "undecided" rather than true agnostic.

Snob :eek:

That's because I'm pretty sure the whole thing's a joke.
LOL

You just said that I don't get jokes. Thanks. :)

(It's true, though.)

No we're not.

I personally don't think it's possible to know one way or the other so I refuse to take a leap of faith and "choose a side" (an absurd expression in the first place).

Yeah I'm full of 'em.:p

For the love of god(s) and or goddess(es) and or the lack thereof, it was a parody thread designed to show that just because you say one set of beliefs is inheirently better than the other, doesn't make it so!

Make it so No. 1!
:D

Yeah I'm full of 'em.:p
Full of what?

well mostly I could care less I mean I'll be dead when I find out so I don't care also I'm just waiting until said death to make up my mind and it isn't laziness i just don't care and have better things to do with my life then think about death.

What is wrong with the jerk who posted this topic originally? what an ignorant thing to say. organized religion causes most of the conflict in the world. how many wars have been started due to religion? how much discrimination and hatred throughout human history? what he said was just what id expect from a f***ing religious. i am an atheist, but im not against belief in god. but when religion is organized, and the product of this process is a fool like him, you should think about how "prosperous" religion is.

It's as rational as an omnipresent being.

Ok give me a myth and I'll give you an answer.
There was a good one posted on NS a bit back, and discussed. I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT: of course, as always, the discussion kind of petered after I explained what the myth really meant. :p

No we're not.

I personally don't think it's possible to know one way or the other so I refuse to take a leap of faith and "choose a side" (an absurd expression in the first place).

Well, fence isn't quite the correct term. It's more like a circle, divided into many sections. Atheist, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu (is that the adjective?), Buddhist, etc. Agnosticism would then be a kind of pillar with a platform on top in the middle.

If the analogy had any merit to begin with, which I'll admit I don't know.

What is wrong with the jerk who posted this topic originally? what an ignorant thing to say. organized religion causes most of the conflict in the world. how many wars have been started due to religion? how much discrimination and hatred throughout human history? what he said was just what id expect from a f***ing religious. i am an atheist, but im not against belief in god. but when religion is organized, and the product of this process is a fool like him, you should think about how "prosperous" religion is.

Cough.

For the love of god(s) and or goddess(es) and or the lack thereof, it was a parody thread designed to show that just because you say one set of beliefs is inheirently better than the other, doesn't make it so!

No we're not.

I personally don't think it's possible to know one way or the other so I refuse to take a leap of faith and "choose a side" (an absurd expression in the first place).

:)

Meaning, "the case for rationality of religious beliefs" being hopeless is only when they are taken out of context, as is the case with most athiests, because of a lack of understanding of the meaning of religious terminology.

You think? I am pretty sure that I have a deeper understanding of the meaning of the terminology of Christian religion than the average believer.
And the case for existence of the Christian God is hopeless, from a rational point of view. The concept itself of existence of such an entity is probably ill-defined, and "religious terminology" should not work as a screen to mask the contradictory and meaningless nature of most religious assertions.

Of course, there are other religions, which I know much less. I cannot be as sharp as for Christianism, but I suspect that those religon tend to use even vaguer than Christianism itself in their assertions, and to make an even worse case in terms of stating a proposition one can accept or reject on rational ground. But I could be wrong.

Well, fence isn't quite the correct term. It's more like a circle, divided into many sections. Atheist, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu (is that the adjective?), Buddhist, etc. Agnosticism would then be a kind of pillar with a platform on top in the middle.

If the analogy had any merit to begin with, which I'll admit I don't know.
:eek: The Illuminati pyramid!

I'm agnostic too, sort of, but I lean toward Christianity. I know that I could be wrong, and Islam or Hinduism or even traditional African tribal religions could be right. I don't hate against people who believe other things. I don't agree with Islam, but Muslims can believe what they like, as long as they don't go to the extreme. Same with Hindus, PAgans, atheists, etc.

Aw... man you're cool :cool:
I'll take your word for it... And I have chocolate! *much*
Though you get a cookie for that one
*Offers chocolate-covered cookie*
That's because I'm pretty sure the whole thing's a joke.
No! No, it's a code, see, kinda like the DaVinci-code... See how the hand moves? It's hinting at the Conspiracy...
*Shifty eyes*

Or you might be right :p

You think? I am pretty sure that I have a deeper understanding of the meaning of the terminology of Christian religion than the average believer.
And the case for existence of the Christian God is hopeless, from a rational point of view. The concept itself of existence of such an entity is probably ill-defined, and "religious terminology" should not work as a screen to mask the contradictory and meaningless nature of most religious assertions.

Of course, there are other religions, which I know much less. I cannot be as sharp as for Christianism, but I suspect that those religon tend to use even vaguer than Christianism itself in their assertions, and to make an even worse case in terms of stating a proposition one can accept or reject on rational ground. But I could be wrong.
Just so! "The case for existence of the Christian God"... If you truly understand the terminology, then you know that what is significant is not the actuality of god but the meaning of god, embodied in the symbolism. There is no hopelessness inherent there. None.

This is how both Christians and Ratafarians can have a "living god".

It is only when the atheist takes that meaning out of context and tries to squeeze it into a scientific rationale that it loses all meaning.

What is wrong with the jerk who posted this topic originally? what an ignorant thing to say. organized religion causes most of the conflict in the world. how many wars have been started due to religion? how much discrimination and hatred throughout human history? what he said was just what id expect from a f***ing religious. i am an atheist, but im not against belief in god. but when religion is organized, and the product of this process is a fool like him, you should think about how "prosperous" religion is.

Religion has been used by ancient kings to get gold, or some other good stuff the country with the different religion. Greed and idiocy causes wars, not religion. Religion has been used as an excuse, but once you really consider it, it's always greed, miscommunication, idiocy, etc. etc.

It is only when the atheist takes that meaning out of context and tries to squeeze it into a scientific rationale that it loses all meaning.

In other terms: the meaning is there provided that no one tries to apply logic to it. This defines the undecidible, so I can understand why you are agnostic, but it is more or less the same objection that would-be "magicians" oppose to skeptics.

:p I'll take your word for it... And I have chocolate! *much*
Though you get a cookie for that one
*Offers chocolate-covered cookie*

Thankenu!
*scoffs cookie like a raging cookie monster*:p

I'm agnostic too, sort of, but I lean toward Christianity. I know that I could be wrong, and Islam or Hinduism or even traditional African tribal religions could be right. I don't hate against people who believe other things. I don't agree with Islam, but Muslims can believe what they like, as long as they don't go to the extreme. Same with Hindus, PAgans, atheists, etc.

You don't agree with Islam? The Muslims believed that Jesus existed.

In other terms: the meaning is there provided that no one tries to apply logic to it. This defines the undecidible, so I can understand why you are agnostic, but it is more or less the same objection that would-be "magicians" oppose to skeptics.
No, science was born of logic, but logic is not exclusive to science. The scientific framework that is not allowed to see the meaning of religion is that of "observe, hypothesize, test, observe, conclude".

I am agnostic because I believe that god is that which cannot be known. I came to this belief through my understanding of the symbolism. There is nothing undecisive about my belief.

Ok give me a myth and I'll give you an answer.
Well, I couldn't find the one I was thinking of, but here is one:

Rollers flooding, rollers dashing,
Rollers fighting, rollers clashing; -
The sweep of waters and the extension of waves,
Surging high, but breaking not; -
Waves reclining; waves dispersing;
Waves agreeable; waves that cross not;
Waves frightsome; waves leaping over;
Waves breaking; waves warring;
Waves roaring; waves upheaving;
The peopled waves; waves from east to west.
Whose companion is the wandering current.
Rollers flooding, rollers dashing,
Rollers fighting, rollers clashing; -
The sweep of waters and the extension of waves,
Surging high, but breaking not; -
Waves reclining; waves dispersing;
Waves agreeable; waves that cross not;
Waves frightsome; waves leaping over;
Waves breaking; waves warring;
Waves roaring; waves upheaving;
The peopled waves; waves from east to west.
Whose companion is the wandering current.

'O Tagaloa, who sittest at the helm (of affairs),
Tagaloa's (bird, the Tuli) desires to rest;
Tuli from the ocean must rest in the heavens;
These waves below affright my breast.
Where is the land which first upsprang?
Great Manu'a first uprose.
Beats on (Manu'a) rock his well-loved waves;
On it the Moon's desired light looks down;
The Sun, like statue, changeless found,
(Darts his refulgent beams around).
The waters in their place appear;
The sea, too, occupies its sphere;
The heaven ascends, the sky is clear.
To visit (the scene) Tagaloa comes down;
To the west, to the east, his wailing cry he sends,
A strong desire to have a place whereon to stand
Possesses him; (he bids the lands arise).
Savai'i with its high mountain then sprang up,
And up sprang Fiti and all the Tongan group;
Arose Savai'i; and afterwards,
The Tongan group and the group of Fiji,
Together with the group of small lands;
With the home of Alamisi (the two Samatas Arose)
- Samata-inland and Samata-by-the-sea;
The seats of Tagaloa, and his footstool.
But great Manu'a first grew up -
The resting place of Tagaloa -
After that, all other groups of islands.

Abide in thy mountains, these visit and rest;
abide, Tagaloa, on Manua's high crest,
But fly now and then to thy group in the west;
To measure and compare the space
Which lies between, from place to place.
The ocean between is long and breezy;
Terrific waves affright Tagaloa;
'Oh for a little coral strand.' thus to heaven he cries;
Upolu, a very small bit of rock,
And Tutuila, a little stony land,
Are isles that thereupon immediately arise;
Where chiefs in after times may find a place of rest;
And gods, tho' pinched for room, have many a feast.

And hither came from heaven the peopling vine,
Which gave to Tutuila its inhabitants,
And to Atua and A'ana, with Le-tuamasaga in Upolu.

You don't agree with Islam? The Muslims believed that Jesus existed.


They also believe that Good is Good because Allah said so.
And that Evil is Evil because Allah said so.

Most of the rest of the world thinks that standards of Good and Evil would be pretty much the same if there were no God.

Most Christians and Jews think JHWH is a good God because He conforms to those standards of Good.
In the Islamic context things are good because they conform to Allah - which leaves the idea of a Good God a bit naked - to put it mildly.

You don't agree with Islam? The Muslims believed that Jesus existed.

Not as the Son of God... they just think he's a prophet or something.

I'm an athiest for the same reason you don't believe that there is a tea cup orbiting Pluto or that I have a giant invisible bunny friend that gives me advice.

Bunnies name = Frank by any chance?

Bunnies name = Frank by any chance?

That's what I reckon too.

Not as the Son of God... they just think he's a prophet or something.

Yeah I know that, they just see him as a good man who did good things.

Bunnies name = Frank by any chance?
Harvey. I'm old school.

Well, I couldn't find the one I was thinking of, but here is one:

What do you want from me here?

Harvey. I'm old school.

Thats over 55 years ago!!! Wow....

[QUOTE=Willamena]Well, I couldn't find the one I was thinking of, but here is one:[QUOTE]

What do you want from me here?

Obviously, an answer.

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?
Religion provides prosperity to those who have the balls to con old widows and other gullible people out of donations.

Religion provides prosperity to those who have the balls to con old widows and other gullible people out of donations.

I'd say "Religion provides prosperity to those who have no balls, thus need to con old widows and other gullible people out of donations." :D

[QUOTE=SHAOLIN9][QUOTE=Willamena]Well, I couldn't find the one I was thinking of, but here is one:

Obviously, an answer.

There was no question asked.:confused:

[QUOTE=BogMarsh][QUOTE=SHAOLIN9]

There was no question asked.:confused:


I am assuming you never read Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut? :p

Because you just flunked the test in that book ;)

[QUOTE=SHAOLIN9][QUOTE=BogMarsh]


I am assuming you never read Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut? :p

Because you just flunked the test in that book ;)

Fair enough,

MYTH=CREATION OF SAMOA

God bless Google, Hallowed be thy name.;)

God bless Google, Hallowed be thy name.;)
No, that's supposed to be "Harold be thy name".

No, that's supposed to be "Harold be thy name".

*cries Harold*

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

Religion makes people happy, it provides guidance, comfort, enhances social cohesion, and even (if you truly believe in it, not do it out of fear) helps mental health. And being a mamber of any given religion gives you a slightly higher chance of going to heaven than being an atheist.

So why am I an atheist? because although religion can be a good thing, that doesnt make it true. and i have seen much to suggest that religion (whichever one you prefer) is false, and nothing whatsoever to suggest it might be true.

Religion haven't proven to be a shit.
I could say equally that religion have proven to be irrational and unpappiness.

And it wouldn't be totally true, my point is that it's disgusting to pretend that
any given wiev is proved by history.

Some people need religion becouse they are born with the tendency to submitt to some assumed fantasy.
Some people need to be agnostic or atheistic.

From my point of veiw I think this (sure it's totally uncompromsing just as the origan poster, karma, he deserves this and now we are even );
Religion is opposed to pleasure becouse you don't need the love of strangers.
You don't need the connection and security of brotherhoods.

You don't need those things if you have pleasure.

You don't need religion if you are secure in your own abilities like education or
economic independence:
Becouse if you have ability then you don't have to pray to any god.
You don't sumbit to any god if you make your own desteny.

No, The Aeson just wants to be a troll, which people seem to be feeding quite profusely.

If he (she?) is trolling they're quite bad at it, are you sure it's not someone using sarcasim to make a point?

For the love of god(s) and or goddess(es) and or the lack thereof, it was a parody thread designed to show that just because you say one set of beliefs is inheirently better than the other, doesn't make it so!

Good to know I can still spot threads like this and differentiate them from real trolling.

Monarchies were proven through history, and now most of the world's greater powers have representative governments, eh? Solving a problem of who gets to have something by killing the other person has worked for quite awhile, but it's not 'okay' anymore.

It all just depends on when and how you take a step back and look at all of it. Oh my gosh, I just killed a person! Oh my gosh, I have no say in our government!

I'm atheist and pretty much have never had any religion. My parents never took me to church and don't go themselves, and I never learned any of the stuff like the stories, except when I joined an MYF group two years ago because my friend was in it. In that I learned a couple of stories, played along with the prayers, and basically just had fun handing out posters for our next bake+sub sale as well as making the subs on the day of the sale.

To me, religion is someone standing up there telling you what to do. Don't be gay, don't hate, just pray to God and you'll be allright, when it is not proven that if you pray to god, you'll be allright. I found that there can be four cases of being allright in a situation, in relation to Christianity and atheism.

1) You pray to God and come out allright.
2) You pray to God and come out in a bodybag.
3) You don't pray and come out allright.
4) You don't pray and come out in a bodybag.
Whether you pray or not, you have a 50% chance of coming out allright.

However, there is one thing that makes reliigion slightly better that atheism in one way. When a person prays to God, they may feel as though someone is behind them, helping them and supporting them through their task, which makes them mentally stronger for their task. Even though there are no words of encouragement, no physical person behind them. However, it is just as tangible to find a real person who can be just that, and then that person would probably be one to stay with you, and speak real words of encouragement that you can hear, and get the same result, only it's real and your eyes, ears, all of your senses prove that. With believing that God will help you, you get a false sense that someone is helping you, you don't have to worry as much about screwing up, God will make it better for you. I find that to be weakness, not making yourself able to manage when things do go sour because you think someone else will fix them for you.

As for agnosticism, from the definitions I have heard and believe to be correct, it is very much the same as the Deism that many of the 'forefathers' of the USA followed. They believed that there was some supreme being, but it could not be defined or given a name, so it is just a deity (note that I'm not saying God, deity is the real word for any supreme being that you're not calling by name). I am not agnostic, though, because I have discovered no evidence of a supreme being in my journeys. Deists believe that there is something there, but don't give it a name and don't give themselves some set of morals other than those they believe themselves to be right. Athiesm and agnosticism does not run your life.

Just as well, I find it interesting that in Christianity, there were prophets back when it was started, but if anyone claims to be a prophet now, they are just crazy. Are prophets not allowed to exist anymore? Or were the original prophets just crazy wackos like the ones today, or perhaps just people who saw a chance to put their will onto others by sending their God's will to them?

These are questions I ask myself and my own answer back discredits everything except athiesm....and maybe Buddhism.

Maybe it would do me some good to believe in Harry Potter too, but...I just can't do it. Oh well!

Maybe it would do me some good to believe in Harry Potter too, but...I just can't do it. Oh well!

Why wouldn't you believe in Harry Potter? ;)

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?
Because its foolish at best to believe in a god. And in reality religion has only proven throughout history to kill countless innocent people in the name of god.

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

For the same reason that I don't believe in the easter bunny. Sure, it may be beneficial to blindly believe, but I am more concerned with truth than with the reward that I will get if I abandon rational thought.

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

Religion has never provided prosperity to anyone besides kings and preists.

The strong moral values you speak of evolved to allow humanity to be social creatures. There is a reason that basic morality is present in all religions and in absense of religion. I would go further in saying that religion often acts as a perversion of these moralities.

If you want to actually know how to improve your life and others, you actually have to know the truth behind your life and others.

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?


Except for the fact that everything you just said was a strait out lie, and backwards.

Religion has nothing to do with how you prosper, you can do just fine with out it.

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?


Even if it did matter, there isnt a 'god" anyways...

actually WITHOUT God, there would be MORE prosperity. Religion holds people and society back. From EVERYTHING. Ignorance. Religion=Ignorance. And anoying Ignorance on your part.

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

Oh, those trivial things called reason and the search for truth....

But as far as the claims that religion has been a force of prosperity that makes people happy and good....HAH!

Atheists and agnostics are far more legitimately moral than religious people. You do it because God tells you to - a moral atheist does it because he's actually, fundamentally ethical.

Let's look at some of religion's major real-world moments. Crusades, jihads, Inquisitions, witch trials, witch burnings, the Malleus Maleficarum, the Dark Ages, the many burnings of the library of Alexandria, the house arrest of Galileo, hanging homosexuals, justifications for slavery and male chauvinism, etc. etc. ad nauseam. The list goes on forever. Besides being illogical bullshit, religion is a fascist, intolerant, tribalistic structure that's caused the worst conflicts and atrocities in history by preying on the weak-minded and exploiting the human fear of halting states. It's only benefit has been a stabilizing effect on early civilizations; but this effect is no longer needed, and has been replaced by far more efficacious ones that don't cause book burnings and holy wars in the process.

Oh, those trivial things called reason and the search for truth....

But as far as the claims that religion has been a force of prosperity that makes people happy and good....HAH!

Atheists and agnostics are far more legitimately moral than religious people. You do it because God tells you to - a moral atheist does it because he's actually, fundamentally ethical.

Let's look at some of religion's major real-world moments. Crusades, jihads, Inquisitions, witch trials, witch burnings, the Malleus Maleficarum, the Dark Ages, the many burnings of the library of Alexandria, the house arrest of Galileo, hanging homosexuals, justifications for slavery and male chauvinism, etc. etc. ad nauseam. The list goes on forever. Besides being illogical bullshit, religion is a fascist, intolerant, tribalistic structure that's caused the worst conflicts and atrocities in history by preying on the weak-minded and exploiting the human fear of halting states. It's only benefit has been a stabilizing effect on early civilizations; but this effect is no longer needed, and has been replaced by far more efficacious ones that don't cause book burnings and holy wars in the process.

The destruction of the Library of Alexandra really fucked humanity over too, there was so much technology in there. My estimate is it set us back at least 1,000 years. and thats a conservative estimate.

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

So the reason for religion is economic gain and not faith. Prove to me that the majority of Moslems, Jews and Christians worldwide are prosperous, happy and moral. It can't be done, because it's not true.

The true reason for religion is not God, but the prosperity and happiness of a minority and morality has nothing to do with it.

If you look at history this self-evident. In Moslem countries, the leadership uses Islam to bludgeon the poverty-stricken uneducated masses into hysterical paroxysms of hatred against anything non-Moslem. Christian leadership uses Christianity to influence the gullible masses into giving them money and power. Judaism is probably the least guilty of this, largely because the other two have historically used them as a scapegoat and excuse to hide malfeasance.

This is pretty simplistic, admittedly, but I could write a dissertation too big for this thread supporting my thesis.

This is not to say that faith in a deity is wrong, just that organized religion is less about God than it is about gain.

Agnosticism is the most rational and truthful choice for me.

Agnosticism is the most rational and truthful choice for me.

Same with me.

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

When the free market has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people. And generally free markets= free people and elected governments. So how can anyone honestly want socialism or communism?

Lol

Lol

That´s exactly what I was thinking.

I have friends and family who go to church, and I have to say that by this point in my life I would be just about as unhappy as could be.

I like being Agnostic. I do not acknowledge the existence or nonexistence of a single or multiple Gods.

Because religion is simply a means to fill a void and add structure to people's lives, lifestyle, and belief system. Nothing more.

Just give me ONE proof that there is a God

Just give me ONE proof that there is a God
Chocolate.

Lol

Did it seriously take 10 pages for someone to make that connection?

Chocolate.
That is a crazy good argument. You've nearly turned me...

When religion has been proven throughout history to provide the most prosperity to the most people? And generally religion= happy people and strong moral values. So how can anyone honestly want agnosticism or atheism?

I'm sure there's already been plenty of discussion...

It's not that I just dont believe in any god, it's that I am convinced there is no god - none.

That doesnt mean religion doesnt serve a purpose, and to those who are able to see religion from the outside, you'll understand what I'm talking about.

As a direct rebuttal to your comment about religion providing the most prosperity to the most people, I ask how many people have died in a war based in part or wholly on difference in religious beliefs over the course of recorded history? I also ask how true believers of any faith can feel at peace with their wealth knowing that there are people in the world who have no money, no home, no food, etc.