NationStates Jolt Archive

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?
Perhaps not. I really admire you for your sacrifice but let me tell you, if you have a kid who is CONSTRUCTIVE, and not DESTRUCTIVE to the enviorment, I couldn't care less.
What if your kid turns out to be the most respected President in history? Probably not, but the point is, disibilities make no diifference, if you change the world for the better.

Really depends on what your conditions are. Certain problems such as Diabetes tend not to be passed in all of your offspring. I have a twin that is diabetic and I am not. He has a non-diabetic son. Last person in my family with diabetes was 2 generations previous mine. The colorblind bit is not that big of deal I think. Epilepsy I also do not believe would be a major factor. I think that it also can skip generations or be expelled genetically all together as in Diabetes. Choice would be yours if you ask me. As far as handling a diabetic epileptic child. Your parents did it.....

'Tis your choice. I definately wouldn't force someone to not have children- hopefully in the future gene therapy will stop hereditary diseases being passed on. Ever thought of adoption?

Really depends on what your conditions are. Certain problems such as Diabetes tend not to be passed in all of your offspring. I have a twin that is diabetic and I am not. He has a non-diabetic son. Last person in my family with diabetes was 2 generations previous mine. The colorblind bit is not that big of deal I think. Epilepsy I also do not believe would be a major factor. I think that it also can skip generations or be expelled genetically all together as in Diabetes. Choice would be yours if you ask me. As far as handling a diabetic epileptic child. Your parents did it.....

Nope, I was diagnosed with diabetes at 4 and epilepsy at 11. I see me having kids as knowingly inflicting that on another.....which is wrong.

Perhaps not. I really admire you for your sacrifice but let me tell you, if you have a kid who is CONSTRUCTIVE, and not DESTRUCTIVE to the enviorment, I couldn't care less.
What if your kid turns out to be the most respected President in history? Probably not, but the point is, disibilities make no diifference, if you change the world for the better.

Disabilities make a big difference to those who have them. I'm fortunate that mine are well controlled (now), but I know someone who has fits everyday so can't work or drive and has to live with parents, he basically has no quality of life.

Interesting! I work with first-time parents who are struggling, and some of them do indeed have disabilities.

One lady has one leg, and her 3 year old child is undisciplined and aggressive. This lady cannot forcibly put her in time-out or keep her from doing things she shouldn't be doing, like unlocking the door and running out of the apartment. It is very frustrating for everybody and I can't help wondering why she had ANOTHER BABY that will just be as much of a headache as this one is.

I had a client who is deaf, as well as her husband, and they had a hearing child. That happens all the time, but she has really done a good job of compensating by installing gadgets to help her know when the baby was crying or whatever. She's a very attentive mother.

Lastly, I have clients who are mentally retarded, and have a baby. I had to call CPS on them because the toddler ended up in the hospital with weird digestive problems because she kept forgetting to feed him and then when he did eat, he overate. They also fed him nothing but McDonalds food.

So, I applaud your decision, but frankly, your disabilities aren't as bad as some others, and your offspring would probably be okay. Hey, do what you want to do! Maybe this is a good time to think about adopting. Heck, you can even adopt a disabled child.

Liasia']'Tis your choice. I definately wouldn't force someone to not have children- hopefully in the future gene therapy will stop hereditary diseases being passed on. Ever thought of adoption?

Designer babies are the way forward. I wouldn't adopt, single now so maybe the way forward is meeting a woman with kids??

Nope, I was diagnosed with diabetes at 4 and epilepsy at 11. I see me having kids as knowingly inflicting that on another.....which is wrong.

Look one thing you have to remember is that you do not know if you would actually pass it on. Do you think your parents thought about not having you if they new there was a chance that you turned out the way you did? I think you are thinking to much on this subject.
As far as the average human on earth there are many inflictions they can get. A so called normal person most likely carries around genetics that can lead to many kinds of illness's. It only has to be triggered by some unknown future event. That may or may not take place. I think for you to get what you did was a crapshoot.
I wouldn't not have children because of a somewhat bad deal of cards for yourself. Trust me as a parent kids are one of the most important things that a person can live for. They have such a positive impact on ones self to make it worthwhile. Ask your doctor the odds of having a child with the same conditions as you. I bet you may be suprised.

Interesting! I work with first-time parents who are struggling, and some of them do indeed have disabilities.

One lady has one leg, and her 3 year old child is undisciplined and aggressive. This lady cannot forcibly put her in time-out or keep her from doing things she shouldn't be doing, like unlocking the door and running out of the apartment. It is very frustrating for everybody and I can't help wondering why she had ANOTHER BABY that will just be as much of a headache as this one is.

I had a client who is deaf, as well as her husband, and they had a hearing child. That happens all the time, but she has really done a good job of compensating by installing gadgets to help her know when the baby was crying or whatever. She's a very attentive mother.

Lastly, I have clients who are mentally retarded, and have a baby. I had to call CPS on them because the toddler ended up in the hospital with weird digestive problems because she kept forgetting to feed him and then when he did eat, he overate. They also fed him nothing but McDonalds food.

So, I applaud your decision, but frankly, your disabilities aren't as bad as some others, and your offspring would probably be okay. Hey, do what you want to do! Maybe this is a good time to think about adopting. Heck, you can even adopt a disabled child.

I know mine aren't that bad, but I saw my mum break down in tears for a long time after me being diagnosed when I was 11 and I don't wanna feel like that. One leg isn't a hereditary illness.

What about major disabilities? Surely there is a line that should be drawn on a moral basis by the prospective parent?

Designer babies are the way forward. I wouldn't adopt, single now so maybe the way forward is meeting a woman with kids??
Why not eh. It'd be good for the children too i suppose. Why not adopt? Those kids need a parent.

When it comes to your personal decisions, i think that anything you feel is right for you, short of hurting anyone else, is the right thing. I don't ever want to have kids either, and i have no disabilities, i just don't want any. Everyone has the right to make that decision for themselves. It's not right or wrong, it just is.

As for everyone else, i don't feel right about telling someone, with a disbility or not, that they shouldn't be able to have children. However, if the person has a disability makes it so that they won't able to look after a child if they have one, even in the most basic way, it's probably best if they don't.

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?

Why don't you simply do some research on it to find out whether your conditions could be passed on to your children rather than making a decision without any information? You could ask your doctor on your next visit, if nothing else.

Look one thing you have to remember is that you do not know if you would actually pass it on. Do you think your parents thought about not having you if they new there was a chance that you turned out the way you did? I think you are thinking to much on this subject.
As far as the average human on earth there are many inflictions they can get. A so called normal person most likely carries around genetics that can lead to many kinds of illness's. It only has to be triggered by some unknown future event. That may or may not take place. I think for you to get what you did was a crapshoot.
I wouldn't not have children because of a somewhat bad deal of cards for yourself. Trust me as a parent kids are one of the most important things that a person can live for. They have such a positive impact on ones self to make it worthwhile. Ask your doctor the odds of having a child with the same conditions as you. I bet you may be suprised.

I don't know if I would pass it on or not, but the chance is greater. Anyone can have a disabled child I know that and I have no problems with the way I've turned out, my parents have both been great over the years. I've been lucky in finding good doctors any correct drugs for epilepsy, but not everyone is as well as I am. I've not spoken to docs or anything yet.

Why don't you simply do some research on it to find out whether your conditions could be passed on to your children rather than making a decision without any information? You could ask your doctor on your next visit, if nothing else.

I will.

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?

I'm going to answer with an anecdote from the book An Unquiet Mind, by Kay Redfield Jamison, who, like me, has bipolar disorder, a serious illness which happens to be hereditary. My apologies for the length, but it very well sums up my opinions on the matter.

The fact that manic-depressive illness is a genetic disease brings with it, not surprisingly, very complicated and often difficult emotions. At one extreme is the terrible shame and guilt one can be made to feel. Many years ago, when I was living in Los Angeles, I went to a physician recommended to me by a colleague. After examining me, and after finding out that I had been on lithium for many years, he asked me an extended series of questions about my psychiatric history. He also asked me whether or not I planned to have children. Having generally been treated with intelligence and compassion by my various doctors up to that point, I had no reason to be anything but direct about my extensive history of mania and depression, although I also made it clear that I was, in the vernacular, a "good lithium responder." I told him that I very much wanted to have children, which immediately led to his asking me what I planned to do about taking lithium during pregnancy. I started to tell him that it seemed obvious to me that the dangers of my illness far outweighed any potential problems that lithium might cause a developing fetus, and that I therefore would choose to stay on lithium. Before I finished, however, he broke in to ask me if I knew that manic-depressive illness was a genetic disease. Stifling for the moment an urge to remind him that I had spent my entire professional life studying manic-depressive illness and that, in any event, I wasn't entirely stupid, I said, "Yes, of course." At that point, in an icy and imperious voice that I can hear to this day, he stated – as though it were God's truth, which he no doubt felt that it was – "You shouldn't have children. You have manic-depressive illness."

I felt sick, unbelievably and utterly sick, and deeply humiliated. Determined to resist being provoked into what would, without question, be interpreted as irrational behavior, I asked him if his concerns about my having children stemmed from the fact that, because of my illness, he thought I would be an inadequate mother or simply that he thought it was best to avoid bringing another manic-depressive into the world. Ignoring or missing my sarcasm, he replied, "Both." I asked him to leave the room, put on the rest of my clothes, knocked on his office door, told him to go to hell, and left. I walked across the street to my car, sat down, shaking, and sobbed until I was exhausted. Brutality takes many forms, and what he had done was not only brutal but unprofessional and uninformed. It did the kind of lasting damage that only something that cuts so quick and deep to the heart can do.

Oddly enough, it had never occurred to me not to have children simply because I had manic-depressive illness. Even in my blackest depressions, I never regretted having been born. It is true that I had wanted to die, but that is peculiarly different from regretting having been born. Overwhelmingly, I was enormously glad to have been born, grateful for life, and I couldn't imagine not wanting to pass on life to someone else. All things considered, I had had a marvelous – albeit turbulent and occasionally awful – existence. Of course, I had had serious concerns: How could one not? Would I, for example, be able to take care of my children properly? What would happen to them if I got severely depressed? Much more frightening still, what would happen if I got manic, if my judgment became impaired, if I became violent or uncontrollable? How would it be to have to watch my own children struggle with depression, hopelessness, despair, or insanity if they themselves became ill? Would I watch them too hawkishly for symptoms or mistake their normal reactions to life as signs of illness? All of these were things I had thought about a thousand times, but never, not once, had I questioned having children.

Having children is never a decision to make lightly, but I do not honestly see a heritable disability as cause in and of itself not to reproduce, at least not unless you genuinely believe that you would rather never to have been born at all than to be born with that disability. I do not know whether or not I will ever have children, but I reject the idea that people with genetic disorders should not be brought into existence, since I personally prefer existence over nonexistence. :)

I'm going to answer with an anecdote from the book An Unquiet Mind, by Kay Redfield Jamison, who, like me, has bipolar disorder, a serious illness which happens to be hereditary. My apologies for the length, but it very well sums up my opinions on the matter.



Having children is never a decision to make lightly, but I do not honestly see a heritable disability as cause in and of itself not to reproduce, at least not unless you genuinely believe that you would rather never to have been born at all than to be born with that disability. I do not know whether or not I will ever have children, but I reject the idea that people with genetic disorders should not be brought into existence, since I personally prefer existence over nonexistence. :)

I thankyou for your thoughts, both deep and valid. A doctor saying that to a manic depressive really could send them over the edge, that's not professional, it's not his decision to take to say - you should not, but it is valid for him to mention it so all possible outcomes are thought of.

I'm an advocate of eugenics (not necessarily forced, however) so my response is: yes, you're making the right choice. Before the advent of modern medicine, hereditary diseased people would stand a higher chance of dying before being able to procreate, hence the possibility of the broken genes being passed on is reduced. With modern medicine, our gene pools are filled with genetic errors that we should correct before it becomes too much of a problem. Nature can't correct it for us anymore. It's up to us.

I'm an advocate of eugenics (not necessarily forced, however) so my response is: yes, you're making the right choice. Before the advent of modern medicine, hereditary diseased people would stand a higher chance of dying before being able to procreate, hence the possibility of the broken genes being passed on is reduced. With modern medicine, our gene pools are filled with genetic errors that we should correct before it becomes too much of a problem. Nature can't correct it for us anymore. It's up to us.

It's good to have some-one with a different view, but now I see the old "is it right to play god" question coming your way! I personally would go through genetic screening if that's possible when the time comes. For me it's all about giving the best quality of life possile to that child.

Talk to a Doctor, or some kind of Fertility Specialist before making this decision, after all, you might have nothing to worry about. Plus, what if your kid does something great like, joins the military, becomes a government official. etc..

Honestly, I don't think people with who could likely pass down serious disabilities should have biological children. No one person's genes are so important that they need to risk bringing a child into a life of pain when they could just as easily make an already living child's life better by adopting.

However, my view isn't something I would force on people, and having a child despite the risks isn't nearly as bad as couples who keep having children despite a high risk of serious disability when several of their children already have the disability. I think that's just cruel and selfish. If you want children so badly, adopt.

And now I'm off my soap box.

It's good to have some-one with a different view, but now I see the old "is it right to play god" question coming your way! I personally would go through genetic screening if that's possible when the time comes. For me it's all about giving the best quality of life possile to that child.
Humanity should aspire to godhood.

Talk to a Doctor, or some kind of Fertility Specialist before making this decision, after all, you might have nothing to worry about. Plus, what if your kid does something great like, joins the military, becomes a government official. etc..

If he/she has my conditions then they can't get employed in military, fire brigade, electrical (colourblind - men only) or stuff like that. It's not about what job they have it's purely about quality of life and deliberate infliction of suffering to knowingly pass things on etc. I'm probably reading too much into things, it's good to have everyone's views as it makes me look at things in the bigger perspective which I thank you all for.:)

I'd rather people in general had less children.

Humanity should aspire to godhood.

Scientists always have done, without them and their advances (including animal testing) I would not have lived.

I'd rather people in general had less children.

Japan is at mo'.

I have friends with an inheritable disease that causes heart problems at a young age. They have chosen not to have children and I honor them for that decision.

The balance is we all have some sort of inheritable problems even if it is just near sightedness. So it does take judgement as to how severe the problems will be.

But either way that is no reason not to have a family. There are lots of children out there to adopt. Especially those with disabilities themselves and those who are minority or older children. I personally don't understand the difference between adoption and self procreation. I see people spending tens of thousands of dollars to get pregnant when that money could go a long way to care for an adopted child. I think it has to do with a warped selfishness that those who adopt don't have.

I didn't know when I had my children that I carried a gene for Celiac disease, in fact I never heard of it until my youngest was a year old and got very sick and nearly died.

Celiac disease has a lot of "sister diseases" like diabetes, epilepsy, asthma, and lupus, it can also greatly increases your risk for stomache cancer.

I don't know if I had the information then, if I would have chosen to have children or not, but now that I have them I couldn't imagine life without them.

Celiac disease isn't the worst disease ever, it's actually the best auto-immune disease around (if you have to have one) because we know what causes the immune reaction, however it's a rough life, there are a lot of things we can't do, and every single minute of every day is spent trying to plan to keep us safe.

I sometimes feel guilty passing it on, there are things my girls can never do (beyond not eating pizza, and never tasting cheesecake) they can't join the armed forces, or donate organs, we can't even donate blood.

I think the benifits of having them around outweighs the risk though.

Talk to your doctor, find out how likely it would be that you pass it on, I know being diabetic and epileptic isn't a fun life, because both run in my family, but really, they are both treatable, you can live a full life. ;)

It's good to have some-one with a different view, but now I see the old "is it right to play god" question coming your way! I personally would go through genetic screening if that's possible when the time comes. For me it's all about giving the best quality of life possile to that child.
I wouldn't say that selective breeding is playing god any more than medical science is.

I wouldn't say that selective breeding is playing god any more than medical science is.

I'd say it is, somewhat. Eugenics rests on the principle that someone is capable of objectively deciding what people are "good enough" to breed. Medical science makes no pretense of deciding which people are "good enough" to live or be healthy; it merely tries to make everyone live and be healthy.

Basically, for me, the issue is fairly simple. The only person remotely qualified to decide whether or not I should have children is me. The only person remotely qualified to decide whether or not you should have children is you. Anyone who is not me who chooses to tell me that my potential future children should not exist can go jump off a cliff. :)

I'm an advocate of eugenics (not necessarily forced, however) so my response is: yes, you're making the right choice. Before the advent of modern medicine, hereditary diseased people would stand a higher chance of dying before being able to procreate, hence the possibility of the broken genes being passed on is reduced. With modern medicine, our gene pools are filled with genetic errors that we should correct before it becomes too much of a problem. Nature can't correct it for us anymore. It's up to us.

The problem with "correcting genetic errors" is, quite simply, who can decide what's an "error" and what's not? To use myself as an example, I have bipolar II disorder. It's a severe and thus far incurable condition that has certainly negatively impacted my life in many ways...but it's also closely linked with intelligence and creativity. The proportion of writers, composers, and artists who have had bipolar or other mood disorders is drastically higher than the proportion of same among the population at large. (Which is cause and which is effect, if the relationship is even that simple, is as yet unknown, but the correlation is undeniable.) So should we try to "breed out" bipolar and depression, and likely "breed out" creative genius in the process? Or, heck, should we try to select for bipolar/depression, and increase the average IQ at the probable cost of a higher suicide rate? Who's qualified to decide?

Obviously, there are some genetic disorders with less apparent positive aspects, but how does one ever know exactly what one is breeding out? For all we know, epileptic seizures will be the best defense against some horrible virus which infects the nervous system and which will decimate the world's population in 2080, in which case "non-epileptic" would be the genetic flaw. In the end, the best way to keep any species flourishing is variety, after all...

I didn't know when I had my children that I carried a gene for Celiac disease, in fact I never heard of it until my youngest was a year old and got very sick and nearly died.

Celiac disease has a lot of "sister diseases" like diabetes, epilepsy, asthma, and lupus, it can also greatly increases your risk for stomache cancer.

I don't know if I had the information then, if I would have chosen to have children or not, but now that I have them I couldn't imagine life without them.

Celiac disease isn't the worst disease ever, it's actually the best auto-immune disease around (if you have to have one) because we know what causes the immune reaction, however it's a rough life, there are a lot of things we can't do, and every single minute of every day is spent trying to plan to keep us safe.

I sometimes feel guilty passing it on, there are things my girls can never do (beyond not eating pizza, and never tasting cheesecake) they can't join the armed forces, or donate organs, we can't even donate blood.

I think the benifits of having them around outweighs the risk though.

Talk to your doctor, find out how likely it would be that you pass it on, I know being diabetic and epileptic isn't a fun life, because both run in my family, but really, they are both treatable, you can live a full life. ;)

Smunk - you're one of the best advisors about anything here. I do indeed live a very full and happy life, I work on my own, live on my own and go out with people lots, plus I have Kung-Fu which rocks my world! I've overcome lots of other stuff getting here, but probably not much more than anyone else. I'm a stronger person now than ever having overcome other stuff, but that's not for discussion here. I firmly believe I have the ability to control/overcome any given situation and I'm the most persistant person I know

You can't blame yourself for your Children's Celiac, no more than my parents can blame themselves for me (or my brother being ginger! *lol*). As I get older I face things like Glaucoma and loss of limbs etc, but I live in the now. Being old is for when/if I get there.

Amusing anecdote: When I was 4 and first diagnosed with Diabetes, the nurse approached me with an insulin injection and I got up off the bed and started running around screaming as I didn't like needles. It took 4 nurses to catch me, hold me down and administer the injection!!! :D

It's 3:35 a.m and I'm going to bed!:p

The problem with "correcting genetic errors" is, quite simply, who can decide what's an "error" and what's not? To use myself as an example, I have bipolar II disorder. It's a severe and thus far incurable condition that has certainly negatively impacted my life in many ways...but it's also closely linked with intelligence and creativity. The proportion of writers, composers, and artists who have had bipolar or other mood disorders is drastically higher than the proportion of same among the population at large. (Which is cause and which is effect, if the relationship is even that simple, is as yet unknown, but the correlation is undeniable.) So should we try to "breed out" bipolar and depression, and likely "breed out" creative genius in the process? Or, heck, should we try to select for bipolar/depression, and increase the average IQ at the probable cost of a higher suicide rate? Who's qualified to decide?

Obviously, there are some genetic disorders with less apparent positive aspects, but how does one ever know exactly what one is breeding out? For all we know, epileptic seizures will be the best defense against some horrible virus which infects the nervous system and which will decimate the world's population in 2080, in which case "non-epileptic" would be the genetic flaw. In the end, the best way to keep any species flourishing is variety, after all...
I am of the opinion that any genetic condition that would result in death if untreated should be eliminated. Basing worth on "potential" is the same argument that anti-abortionists use, and I don't buy that either. There will always be a healthy individual who has the "potential" to come up with the same ideas.

What about major disabilities? Surely there is a line that should be drawn on a moral basis by the prospective parent?
I think it depends on if the disease or disability is life threatening. Children who get Tay Sachs (sry if thats spelled terrible wrong) have a miserable, pain filled 5 years of existence before they die. If there were any chance I would have a child like that, I wouldn't want to risk it.

But I know people with Downs and cerebral palsy (again, i cant spell), and they are great fun people. I'm happy their parents had them, even though the child was not "perfect", because they bring joy to others and lead happy lives, even tho there are things they can't do.

I am of the opinion that any genetic condition that would result in death if untreated should be eliminated. Basing worth on "potential" is the same argument that anti-abortionists use, and I don't buy that either. There will always be a healthy individual who has the "potential" to come up with the same ideas.

I don't believe I was arguing "potential" in any way, and I happen to agree with you that potential to accomplish things has nothing to do with worth per se. Geniuses do not necessarily do anything particularly amazing, but most people would agree that intelligence and creativity are positive traits in and of themselves.

A couple of questions to clarify your position - what if something, like many conditions, could result in death if untreated, but is not a death sentence? Bipolar and depression are reasonable examples thereof - both greatly increase the probability of suicide or other self-harm, but neither in any way guarantee it.

Also, what if there's an easy, readily available treatment for a condition which would result in death if untreated? Should such treatment options not be a factor, and if not, why?

I don't believe I was arguing "potential" in any way, and I happen to agree with you that potential to accomplish things has nothing to do with worth per se. Geniuses do not necessarily do anything particularly amazing, but most people would agree that intelligence and creativity are positive traits in and of themselves.

A couple of questions to clarify your position - what if something, like many conditions, could result in death if untreated, but is not a death sentence? Bipolar and depression are reasonable examples thereof - both greatly increase the probability of suicide or other self-harm, but neither in any way guarantee it.

Also, what if there's an easy, readily available treatment for a condition which would result in death if untreated? Should such treatment options not be a factor, and if not, why?
You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with treatment. This is to do with prevention. It doesn't matter if we can treat the symptoms of the disease. To eradicate it, you must eliminite it from the gene pool.

I assumed you were arguing potential because you made reference to those with bi-polar disorder often being more creative. In my mind, it doesn't matter what the person may become. At all. All that matters is that they have a genetic disease.

Also, I was perfectly clear. I am of the opinion that any genetic disease that causes death, if untreated, should be eliminated from the gene pool. While depression/bi-polar disorder may cause death, it is not due to the disease itself.

if you change the world for the better.
Not having kids when you have an inheritable disability is for the better.

To answer OP question: Not really...

You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with treatment. This is to do with prevention. It doesn't matter if we can treat the symptoms of the disease. To eradicate it, you must eliminite it from the gene pool.

I assumed you were arguing potential because you made reference to those with bi-polar disorder often being more creative. In my mind, it doesn't matter what the person may become. At all. All that matters is that they have a genetic disease.

Also, I was perfectly clear. I am of the opinion that any genetic disease that causes death, if untreated, should be eliminated from the gene pool. While depression/bi-polar disorder may cause death, it is not due to the disease itself.

"Intelligent" and "creative" are things you become, but "bipolar" is something you are from birth? I don't understand your reasoning here. I'm quite certain I was born intelligent. How I use that intelligence is a matter of potential; the intelligence itself is not.

I also fail to understand how someone who kills themself due to depression is not dying due to depression, but we can skip this particular example if you like, since that's really not the issue I was trying to clarify. What about a disease which simply causes death in about 10% of cases, if untreated? What about one that causes death in about .01% of cases, or in .0000001%? Must those be eradicated? And where do we draw the line?

And I understand that to eradicate a disease it must be eliminated from the gene pool. My question was, rather, whether eradicating a disease that can be easily treated actually serves any useful purpose. Should we, for example, attempt to eradicate near-sightedness? What would that really accomplish?

What if your kid turns out to be the most respected President in history? Probably not, but the point is, disibilities make no diifference, if you change the world for the better.

Franklin D. Roosevelt was confined to a wheelchair for a fair part of his Presidency - didn't stop him from performing duties of office during the Second World War.

My point is, I agree with you.

OP, I wouldn't mind if you had children. Your disabilities, although unfortunate, can be coped with. Same as mine; I have mild Asperger's Syndrome. I do think we should try and prevent people with Down Syndrome and such from reproducing, though; it's cruel, but...

OP, I wouldn't mind if you had children. Your disabilities, although unfortunate, can be coped with. Same as mine; I have mild Asperger's Syndrome. I do think we should try and prevent people with Down Syndrome and such from reproducing, though; it's cruel, but......hypocritical. As though Down syndrome can't be coped with. :rolleyes:

I think disorders should be eradicted should be eradicated that I wouldn't want to have or didn't want my children to have.

...hypocritical. As though Down syndrome can't be coped with. :rolleyes:

It can, but it is a more serious disability.

I think it depends on if the disease or disability is life threatening. Children who get Tay Sachs (sry if thats spelled terrible wrong) have a miserable, pain filled 5 years of existence before they die. If there were any chance I would have a child like that, I wouldn't want to risk it.

But I know people with Downs and cerebral palsy (again, i cant spell), and they are great fun people. I'm happy their parents had them, even though the child was not "perfect", because they bring joy to others and lead happy lives, even tho there are things they can't do.

I have a friend with cerebal palsy and he's generally ok. :)

I feel some people are missing the point of this thread a little.... It's not about a person's potential, I'm not saying disabled people shouldn't exist or anything like that I'm just trying to assess whether bringing someone into this world, when you KNOW that you have a very real chance of causing them suffering is ever morally acceptable.

It can, but it is a more serious disability.

Far more serious.

...hypocritical. As though Down syndrome can't be coped with. :rolleyes:

The child would have to be given to relatives or adopted out. The parent couldn't care for it.

Many embryos with down syndrome are aborted now. Rightly so in my opinion.

Either way, it's your choice. I would never tell anyone they could or couldn't have children, as much as I may want to sometimes... (when I see people abusing kids and things of that nature)

Honestly, I will never have children. I know I have more than one mental illness and there's no way I would ever want to pass that on to a child. Even if I didn't have one, I don't think I would want children. I don't even really like children and do not have any maternal instincts.

Anyhow, I do often question why my parents had me. My mother is bipolar to the point she may have a pesonality disorder. She figured at the time she had me that it was genetic and it may be passed on to me. When she found out I was major depressive disorder, dythymic, and had anxiety (not to mention PTSD) she kept saying how I should have been strong enough to deal with it on my own and how she did not have the money to treat me. Why would you have children if you cannot properly take care of them? Even before she knew of my mental illness, she was NOT an effective mother and could barley afford us. Having a bipolar mother is hell, plain and simple. Being the opposite of her at times (her mania and my depression) made us clash to the point I couldn't stand being around her. I can't deal with mania. I don't understand mania because it's so far from what I experience.

Like I said, I can't tell anyone whether or not to have kids. However, from my experience, it's not easy having a mother who is mentally ill. Like I've said in other threads, it's the quality of care you can provide a child that matters. If one cannot provide a child with quality care, then one may want to reconsider their choice to have children. However, the final choice is not up to me because I do not know people inside and out. A person knows himself/herself well enough to know whether they can provide a child with quality care.

Know that, disabled or not, there will be a ton of backlash on you if you choose not to have children. We (in the US) live in a pronatalist society and people that don't want kids are labeled as "selfish." Well, it's selfish to want a child for your own purposes... to live through that child, to have a child so you "fit in" with a society, to have something that will supposedly give you that unconditional love... those are selfish reasons to have a child. Those who cannot imagine a life without a child either truly wanted children and deserve to be parents and/or simply enjoy their children so much that they cannot imagine any other timeline or outcomes of their existance without their children. Then again, some who say that have been brainwashed to the point they felt they needed a child to be worth anything in this society.

Anyhow, I doubt this will answer any of your questions. It's 5AM, so I am not all in my right mind. I'm just calling life as I see it in this moment, in my current state of mind.

Either way, it's your choice. I would never tell anyone they could or couldn't have children, as much as I may want to sometimes... (when I see people abusing kids and things of that nature)

Honestly, I will never have children. I know I have more than one mental illness and there's no way I would ever want to pass that on to a child. Even if I didn't have one, I don't think I would want children. I don't even really like children and do not have any maternal instincts.

Anyhow, I do often question why my parents had me. My mother is bipolar to the point she may have a pesonality disorder. She figured at the time she had me that it was genetic and it may be passed on to me. When she found out I was major depressive disorder, dythymic, and had anxiety (not to mention PTSD) she kept saying how I should have been strong enough to deal with it on my own and how she did not have the money to treat me. Why would you have children if you cannot properly take care of them? Even before she knew of my mental illness, she was NOT an effective mother and could barley afford us. Having a bipolar mother is hell, plain and simple. Being the opposite of her at times (her mania and my depression) made us clash to the point I couldn't stand being around her. I can't deal with mania. I don't understand mania because it's so far from what I experience.

Like I said, I can't tell anyone whether or not to have kids. However, from my experience, it's not easy having a mother who is mentally ill. Like I've said in other threads, it's the quality of care you can provide a child that matters. If one cannot provide a child with quality care, then one may want to reconsider their choice to have children. However, the final choice is not up to me because I do not know people inside and out. A person knows himself/herself well enough to know whether they can provide a child with quality care.

Know that, disabled or not, there will be a ton of backlash on you if you choose not to have children. We (in the US) live in a pronatalist society and people that don't want kids are labeled as "selfish." Well, it's selfish to want a child for your own purposes... to live through that child, to have a child so you "fit in" with a society, to have something that will supposedly give you that unconditional love... those are selfish reasons to have a child. Those who cannot imagine a life without a child either truly wanted children and deserve to be parents and/or simply enjoy their children so much that they cannot imagine any other timeline or outcomes of their existance without their children. Then again, some who say that have been brainwashed to the point they felt they needed a child to be worth anything in this society.

Anyhow, I doubt this will answer any of your questions. It's 5AM, so I am not all in my right mind. I'm just calling life as I see it in this moment, in my current state of mind.

I've had anxiety issues caused through worrying about my other conditions so I feel for you on that one, I reached the point where I was having despession and panic attacks all day every day and couldn't leave the flat as it caused agorophobia (spelled wrong probably), luckily hypnosis sorted that one otherwise I couldn't see a way out. I see having kids for the sake of it as a selfish thing and not to have kids if you don't see yourself as good parent material as selfless. Glad you're here though ;)

You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with treatment. This is to do with prevention. It doesn't matter if we can treat the symptoms of the disease. To eradicate it, you must eliminite it from the gene pool.
-snip-

Also, I was perfectly clear. I am of the opinion that any genetic disease that causes death, if untreated, should be eliminated from the gene pool. While depression/bi-polar disorder may cause death, it is not due to the disease itself.

1 in 100 people have celiac disease even more carry the gene(s) and are able to pass it on, you WILL die if it goes undiagnosed or even if it gets diagnosed but you don't treat it. That would be a significant portion of society that would be "unallowed" to reproduce.

I've had anxiety issues caused through worrying about my other conditions so I feel for you on that one, I reached the point where I was having despession and panic attacks all day every day and couldn't leave the flat as it caused agorophobia (spelled wrong probably), luckily hypnosis sorted that one otherwise I couldn't see a way out.
been there. had that fancy biofeedback therapy. ;) Chronic illness does nasty things to your head. The fact that I have mild OCD doesn't help much ;) according to the thred I probably shouldn't have reproduced, but none of this came to light until after the first kid for sure and I didn't get firm diagnosis for anything (other than the depression/anxiety) until 2003

been there. had that fancy biofeedback therapy. ;) Chronic illness does nasty things to your head. The fact that I have mild OCD doesn't help much ;) according to the thred I probably shouldn't have reproduced, but none of this came to light until after the first kid for sure and I didn't get firm diagnosis for anything (other than the depression/anxiety) until 2003

I'm glad you did otherwise we'll be without those fancy dog scaring/puppy calming devices. ;) :fluffle:

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?
My parents were medically normal as well as physically. Both of them had clean bills of health when I was born.

I was born with a slight hearing loss and Kallman's Syndrome. Had this happened before? No, my family, as far as I know had a clean bill, though different parts of it had suffered from or died from cancer.

Unless it's genetic, or communable, there is no reason why parents with disabilities or diseases shouldn't have children, if they are capable of caring for the child(ren).

My parents were medically normal as well as physically. Both of them had clean bills of health when I was born.

I was born with a slight hearing loss and Kallman's Syndrome. Had this happened before? No, my family, as far as I know had a clean bill, though different parts of it had suffered from or died from cancer.

Unless it's genetic, or communable, there is no reason why parents with disabilities or diseases shouldn't have children, if they are capable of caring for the child(ren).

That is my point, the genetic bit.

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?


You can adopt. I don't know how bad your epilepsy is or how managable your diabeties is but if you have a partner I don';t see why (if you actually want kids) you shouldn't be able to adopt. I suppose the question to ask is how did you parents cope with a diabetic/epileptic baby? They obviously did cos your still here.
I think things like diabeties while very serious aren't the worst things that someone can be born with. I think it just depends on the persons illness's.

Far more serious.

Depends what you're comparing it to.

The OP? Yes, most defininately.

You can adopt. I don't know how bad your epilepsy is or how managable your diabeties is but if you have a partner I don';t see why (if you actually want kids) you shouldn't be able to adopt. I suppose the question to ask is how did you parents cope with a diabetic/epileptic baby? They obviously did cos your still here.
I think things like diabeties while very serious aren't the worst things that someone can be born with. I think it just depends on the persons illness's.

You have to go back a few pages. I wasn't diabetic and epileptic at birth. My Diabetes control is completely out the window, my epilepsy is good - no fits for 11 years (since I've found the tablets I'm on now). Oh I know there are worse things to be born with, this thread isn't about "look at me I've got it bad" cos I haven't, or even about me wanting kids. I'm just trying to assess people's views as to whether it's right for people who know they have a good chance of passing an illness on to have kids. I'm asking as I keep getting asked whether I want kids and when I say "no...because of the risks to the child" then people look at me as if I have 3 heads (and I only have 2!). I keep getting into this discussion with my brother and best friend (they bring it up, not me) and so I wanted more opinions on the subject
:)

i dont care if ur kids is disabled or not wat i care about is if s/he will do anything good for the country /world. Intellengent can overcome disability
,as long as they dont destroy .Btw i think there is a cure but am not sure if am right or wrong

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?

I agree I support eugenics and admire you for your responsible behavior. If you really want to have kids what you can do is have an amniocentesis done on the fetus to see if it is healthy. If it is go have the kid. If it is unhealthy abort and try again.

Is it right for people with serious disabilities to have children?

No.

This would've made a good poll.

No.

This would've made a good poll.

I'm thinking of adding a poll. If I can. If not on another thread.

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?



Instead of assuming anything why do you not go get medical advice on it ?

Why would you want to base a major life descision on bad info ?

Instead of assuming anything why do you not go get medical advice on it ?

Why would you want to base a major life descision on bad info ?

Making bad decisions is what I'm good at! :p

I think those with disabilities need to think about it heavily before they choose to have kids … Like you are doing.

In the end there should be NO official position or law on the matter but personally I would urge those genetically disabled to adopt if they do not wish to have a child of their own

:headbang: you can have kids bro. is your life that bad? You are intelgent and able to live a good life. Just because you use medication and walk with a limp means nothing. Have kids. After all the US will kill alot of middle easterners and make more room for you retard kids.:mp5:

I think those with disabilities need to think about it heavily before they choose to have kids … Like you are doing.

In the end there should be NO official position or law on the matter but personally I would urge those genetically disabled to adopt if they do not wish to have a child of their own
I agree. It's a personal choice and you should weigh the risk vs. benifits, it's hard to do though when you don't know what kinda kid might pop out. I know my kids have a lot more promise than I would have imagined before I got pregnant. The risks of having celiac are high, but the benifit my kids could have on the world is so much higher.

I think you have to decide what's right for you and people should respect you enough to let you do so. It's not a decision made lightly. I worry about people who speak in absolutes, and say 'all people with a genetic disability shouldn't reproduce' such general statements do a service to no one.

:headbang: you can have kids bro. is your life that bad? You are intelgent and able to live a good life. Just because you use medication and walk with a limp means nothing. Have kids. After all the US will kill alot of middle easterners and make more room for you retard kids.:mp5:

Sensitively put!:p

I'm glad to see the US cares so much about us Brits :D


Quote: "Been hit with a few shells and now I walk with a limp"

*ROFL*

p.s my life is generally great thanx

I agree. It's a personal choice and you should weigh the risk vs. benifits, it's hard to do though when you don't know what kinda kid might pop out. I know my kids have a lot more promise than I would have imagined before I got pregnant. The risks of having celiac are high, but the benifit my kids could have on the world is so much higher.

I think you have to decide what's right for you and people should respect you enough to let you do so. It's not a decision made lightly. I worry about people who speak in absolutes, and say 'all people with a genetic disability shouldn't reproduce' such general statements do a service to no one.
Yeah In the end it should be their decision … except in the case of mental handicaps those are a bit trickier

Yeah In the end it should be their decision … except in the case of mental handicaps those are a bit trickier
define mental handicap....please.

define mental handicap....please.
Past the point of legally ability to do things such as sign contracts or make fully qualified decisions.

define mental handicap....please.

Significant mental disabilities, such as full-blown autism, Down Syndrome and Edward's Syndrome.

Significant mental disabilities, such as full-blown autism, Down Syndrome and Edward's Syndrome.
there is a high risk for people with the celiac gene to develop autism, in fact it's quite common for a child to have both. Luckily my children seem to have escaped that and came out with celiac only.....so far, they might develop other problems later in life.

there is a high risk for people with the celiac gene to develop autism, in fact it's quite common for a child to have both. Luckily my children seem to have escaped that and came out with celiac only.....so far, they might develop other problems later in life.

I don't know what celiac is. Maybe it runs in my family, there's three of us with Asperger's (an autistic spectrum disorder).

there is a high risk for people with the celiac gene to develop autism, in fact it's quite common for a child to have both. Luckily my children seem to have escaped that and came out with celiac only.....so far, they might develop other problems later in life.
My issue with the severe mental disabilities is NOT that they have children it is that they are not qualified to make that DECISION

So my point about handicaps (specifically mental) was that like any other member of society those that are fully legally capable of making said decision should be allowed (though they should seriously think about it in the case of a genetic disorder) But members of society that do NOT have the ability to make said rational choice (such as children or the severe mental handicap) it gets trickier

Should their guardians be able to make that choice? (in the case of handicapped people) hell should their guardians have the right to say they are ready for sexual intercourse of any sort?

It all gets a bit tricky is all I meant

I don't know what celiac is. Maybe it runs in my family, there's three of us with Asperger's (an autistic spectrum disorder).
Celiac disease (http://www.csaceliacs.org/celiac_defined.php)

related disorders (http://www.celiac.com/st_prod.html?p_prodid=83&p_catid=111&sid=91hH9H1UsJoY1mw-11106612046.40)

there are a few kids in the support group I run with Asperger's who also have celiac, and then another 3 or 4 with "classic autism" who have mulitple problems one of which is Celiac.

sorry to hijack the thred. ;)

I just get annoyed when people say (almost daily) "why would you make your kids suffer? I wouldn't have kids if I was sick"

My issue with the severe mental disabilities is NOT that they have children it is that they are not qualified to make that DECISION

So my point about handicaps (specifically mental) was that like any other member of society those that are fully legally capable of making said decision should be allowed (though they should seriously think about it in the case of a genetic disorder) But members of society that do NOT have the ability to make said rational choice (such as children or the severe mental handicap) it gets trickier

Should their guardians be able to make that choice? (in the case of handicapped people) hell should their guardians have the right to say they are ready for sexual intercourse of any sort?

It all gets a bit tricky is all I meant
okay, I understand what you are saying, and you are right, it's very tricky I wouldn't even know where to begin with that one ;)

Celiac disease (http://www.csaceliacs.org/celiac_defined.php)

related disorders (http://www.celiac.com/st_prod.html?p_prodid=83&p_catid=111&sid=91hH9H1UsJoY1mw-11106612046.40)

there are a few kids in the support group I run with Asperger's who also have celiac, and then another 3 or 4 with "classic autism" who have mulitple problems one of which is Celiac.

sorry to hijack the thred. ;)

I just get annoyed when people say (almost daily) "why would you make your kids suffer? I wouldn't have kids if I was sick"

I looked it up on Wikipedia and it came up as coeliac, and didn't mention anything about autism, just about the gluten problem.

I looked it up on Wikipedia and it came up as coeliac, and didn't mention anything about autism, just about the gluten problem.
wiki isn't the best source for just about anything

http://www.celiac.com/st_prod.html?p_prodid=14

it says here that the gluten free diet helps them, it could be a great big coincidence that I have 6 kids in my support group with both autism and celiac. ;)

http://www.enabling.org/ia/celiac/rel-dis.html#AUTISM
I am also still looking for the gene's that have been associated with autism because I think I remember a few of them are also related to celiac disease.

okay, I understand what you are saying, and you are right, it's very tricky I wouldn't even know where to begin with that one ;)
Yeah I mean who has the authority on certain subjects to say what is best for someone.

I mean in children the guardian has the ability to make most of the decisions from contract law to what their children’s bedtime is. But one area expressly forbidden in most areas is allowing sexual intercourse.
It is thought that they are not mentally able to handle the situation or the consequences so it is not an option parents have to consent to


But in the case of the mentally handicapped they will never grow past this point… Should guardians have the ability to consent? And if so to who? Only other mentally handicapped or can they consent to allowing someone that is not on their charges level have sex with them?

Very confusing

wiki isn't the best source for just about anything

http://www.celiac.com/st_prod.html?p_prodid=14

it says here that the gluten free diet helps them, it could be a great big coincidence that I have 6 kids in my support group with both autism and celiac. ;)
Though that could mean they have a similar causal relationship rather then correlative (meaning something is causing both of them rather then one causing the other)

Though that could mean they have a similar causal relationship rather then correlative (meaning something is causing both of them rather then one causing the other)
very true, but it's one of those things where if you have celiac you are at a high risk for other things whether celiac actually causes them or not.

In the end it's the same outcome either Celiac causes my Rosacea or I have something that causes both my celiac and my rosacea, the end result is that I have celiac and rosacea and so do a lot of other people.

wiki isn't the best source for just about anything

http://www.celiac.com/st_prod.html?p_prodid=14

it says here that the gluten free diet helps them, it could be a great big coincidence that I have 6 kids in my support group with both autism and celiac. ;)

Fair enough. But is the gluten thing serious or just... should be avoided?

Fair enough. But is the gluten thing serious or just... should be avoided?
If I stay 100% gluten free I can live a normal life (as normal as you can being gluten free) as long as I don't develop any more of the related disorders.

If I eat gluten I will get sick, there is enough gluten in 1/48th of a slice of bread to do serious damage to my intestines, it's toxic for me, even a crumb can make me sick. Once my intestines are damaged I won't be able to absorb the food I eat for up to 6 weeks, which means I will get malnourished.

Gluten free sounds easy but it's really not, I can barely eat out, I can't have much of any fast food, I can't eat anything without reading the label and sometimes calling the company, I told someone once to go into the grocery store, the produce isle is okay for me and most of the raw unseasoned unmarinated meat, everything else may (and most does) have gluten. I have to read all my makeup, my shampoo, my medicines, I can't even use some types of bandaids, can't lick envelopes and my kids can't finger paint or play with playdough........it's sometimes not the most fun life out there, which is why I run a support group for kids with celiac, it's hard to be a kid and not be able to have a pizza party, or go to the Mc Donald's with your friends, it's hard not being able to have "regular" birthday cake, or go on vacation without extensive communication with the hotel before hand.

Sorry for the rant, just got off the phone with a kid who is upset because the summer camp he was going to won't let him go now... :(

I feel some people are missing the point of this thread a little.... It's not about a person's potential, I'm not saying disabled people shouldn't exist or anything like that I'm just trying to assess whether bringing someone into this world, when you KNOW that you have a very real chance of causing them suffering is ever morally acceptable.

One problem I see with that rationale is that every person brought into the world has a very real chance of suffering. Many perfectly healthy children are seriously injured in car accidents every year; should one not have children if one plans to drive a car, or even live near a road? Many healthy children will grow up to have jobs which they hate, or be homeless, or worry constantly about how to pay their bills; should one only have children if those children will be independently wealthy? And, of course, it's a very rare teenager who does not feel that their parents are deliberately causing them suffering on a regular basis. Suffering, at least now and then, is an inescapable part of life. So where exactly does one draw the line? Exactly how much suffering is it permissible to risk inflicting on one's children by giving birth to them? ;)

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?
To each his own. You are a smart and careful man to do this, but we should not restrict other's ability to have children.

I think you have to decide what's right for you and people should respect you enough to let you do so. It's not a decision made lightly. I worry about people who speak in absolutes, and say 'all people with a genetic disability shouldn't reproduce' such general statements do a service to no one.

I agree with this 100%.

To each his own. You are a smart and careful man to do this, but we should not restrict other's ability to have children.

Thankyou. :)

One problem I see with that rationale is that every person brought into the world has a very real chance of suffering. Many perfectly healthy children are seriously injured in car accidents every year; should one not have children if one plans to drive a car, or even live near a road? Many healthy children will grow up to have jobs which they hate, or be homeless, or worry constantly about how to pay their bills; should one only have children if those children will be independently wealthy? And, of course, it's a very rare teenager who does not feel that their parents are deliberately causing them suffering on a regular basis. Suffering, at least now and then, is an inescapable part of life. So where exactly does one draw the line? Exactly how much suffering is it permissible to risk inflicting on one's children by giving birth to them? ;)

Sorry but risk of being in a car accident just doesn't compare to the risk of passing on genetic conditions and quality of life. Teenage problems are a factor of life for everyone, these are greatly amplified when you're sick on top. Ages 11-16 consisted of me having lots of fits and going through all the drugs possible for epilepsy, suffering more from side-effects of tablets than the epilepsy itself. The tablets caused weight loss/gain, hair to fall out in large clumps, one affected my balance to the point where I couldn't stand up without falling over, insomnia, vomiting, being very doped up and lethargic and a whole host of other stuff, not to mention the effects of coming off the tablets (body becomes addicted to them). One of the tablets I had is now banned as they discovered it was very dangerous for some reason:eek: I missed most of my school years and was given very shitty predicted grades for my GCSE's by the teachers. I'm a determined little bastard though and I acquired every book possible and taught myself what I needed to know and got good grades in order to prove everyone wrong. On the other hand I don't think it's right for people who can't financially support kids to have them either.:)

Celiac disease (http://www.csaceliacs.org/celiac_defined.php)

related disorders (http://www.celiac.com/st_prod.html?p_prodid=83&p_catid=111&sid=91hH9H1UsJoY1mw-11106612046.40)

there are a few kids in the support group I run with Asperger's who also have celiac, and then another 3 or 4 with "classic autism" who have mulitple problems one of which is Celiac.

sorry to hijack the thred. ;)

I just get annoyed when people say (almost daily) "why would you make your kids suffer? I wouldn't have kids if I was sick"

Smunkee, as I've said before somewhere else, Kung-fu has the answer to all problems, so the next time someone says this to you...........

http://www.owned.com/Owned_Pictures/Painful_Owned_Pics/Talk_about_a_high_kick/OWNED.html

OR

http://www.owned.com/Owned_Pictures/Funny_Owned_Pics/Backhand_slap/OWNED.html

;) :fluffle:

Nope, I was diagnosed with diabetes at 4 and epilepsy at 11. I see me having kids as knowingly inflicting that on another.....which is wrong.
If I had a choice whether to accept those disibilities, or not be alive...

If I had a choice whether to accept those disibilities, or not be alive...

Meh, don't get me wrong, I'm ok now. There's been some times when I've seriously contemplated that one though if you get my meaning :(

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?

Diabetes and epilepsy reduce the quality of life a bit, but not to the point of "not worth living".
Diabetes and epilepsy aren't necessarily hereditary. It depends on what types they are. And even if you have the hereditary types, they might not get passed on.

I think it's a very drastic decision. But what you do is your decision.

Diabetes and epilepsy reduce the quality of life a bit, but not to the point of "not worth living".
Diabetes and epilepsy aren't necessarily hereditary. It depends on what types they are. And even if you have the hereditary types, they might not get passed on.

I think it's a very drastic decision. But what you do is your decision.

I know this as I have them :p You know how depressive teenagers get though!:D I'm long since grown up now though :(

Also it depends on how well controlled they are - as I said earlier I know a guy who has fits every day and can't work, drive or generally do anything alone - I see this as more than "a bit" in terms of quality of life reduction. Also if Diabetes control is bad then can lead to loss of feeling in extremities (hands and feet mainly), glaucoma and the need for amputating limbs not to mention lots of other stuff - Then quality of life really suffers.

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?

Sometimes a person with disabilities might have an exceptional skill. We could stopping the birth of a person who would have had the knowledge to cure a terrible disease or invent something to save millions of people.

It is your choice to have children or not, but if a child is conceived, his life is inviolate, and the government should not try to step in.

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?

If someone who has disabilites wants to have kids, noone can stop them, because NOONE has that power. Granted, I don't think it's a good idea, but who am I to say they shouldn't?

They should adopt, perhaps.

As for me, I have a messed up hip and asthma, but I don't think that makes me 'disabled'. I can still run a sub-7 minute mile even with that hip.

Sometimes a person with disabilities might have an exceptional skill. We could stopping the birth of a person who would have had the knowledge to cure a terrible disease or invent something to save millions of people.

It is your choice to have children or not, but if a child is conceived, his life is inviolate, and the government should not try to step in.

Please don't argue potential, it makes little sense. Any one person born could just as easily become a serial murderer as they could cure cancer. Actually, I think serial killers are more common than horrible disease curers... Not to mention the fact that I don't think any one person holds the key to any discovery. If one person doesn't think it up, someone else will.

If someone who has disabilites wants to have kids, noone can stop them, because NOONE has that power. Granted, I don't think it's a good idea, but who am I to say they shouldn't?

They should adopt, perhaps.

As for me, I have a messed up hip and asthma, but I don't think that makes me 'disabled'. I can still run a sub-7 minute mile even with that hip.

That's better than my running skills! I suck at running! :)

Please don't argue potential, it makes little sense. Any one person born could just as easily become a serial murderer as they could cure cancer. Actually, I think serial killers are more common than horrible disease curers... Not to mention the fact that I don't think any one person holds the key to any discovery. If one person doesn't think it up, someone else will.

Plus the thread's about quality of life.....not potential.

I know this as I have them :p You know how depressive teenagers get though!:D I'm long since grown up now though :(

Also it depends on how well controlled they are - as I said earlier I know a guy who has fits every day and can't work, drive or generally do anything alone - I see this as more than "a bit" in terms of quality of life reduction. Also if Diabetes control is bad then can lead to loss of feeling in extremities (hands and feet mainly), glaucoma and the need for amputating limbs not to mention lots of other stuff - Then quality of life really suffers.

True, there are extreme cases and there are more factors, some of the epilepsy medication can have some nasty side-effects and such.
But, you aware of the possibility and the symptoms, so you'd know what to look for in your child, I guess that would be a "silver lining" in the cloud.

But I guess it's mostly a question of ones philosophy. If you found out your unborn child had Downs syndrome, would you prefer an abortion?

Plus the thread's about quality of life.....not potential.

There is that as well. Though I guess for some people it might be deciding between the remote possibility of the child doing something amazing for the world and the rather more likely possibility of the child having a low quality of life...

I'd choose saving the child from the low quality of life possibility, myself. Go adopt an orphan instead, and help them reach their full potential that could involve curing cancer! Or something.

True, there are extreme cases and there are more factors, some of the epilepsy medication can have some nasty side-effects and such.
But, you aware of the possibility and the symptoms, so you'd know what to look for in your child, I guess that would be a "silver lining" in the cloud.

But I guess it's mostly a question of ones philosophy. If you found out your unborn child had Downs syndrome, would you prefer an abortion?

I honestly don't know. I'm not in possession of the facts on that one and I've never spent time with anyone who has it :confused:

:p There is that as well. Though I guess for some people it might be deciding between the remote possibility of the child doing something amazing for the world and the rather more likely possibility of the child having a low quality of life...

I'd choose saving the child from the low quality of life possibility, myself. Go adopt an orphan instead, and help them reach their full potential that could involve curing cancer! Or something.

Hey if it's good enough for Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie then it's good enough for me! :D

The idea for the thread mainly come about as people ask me about having kids and also when I say no they ask what would I do if the woman I was with wanted them and wouldn't stay with me if I didn't. I say "then it's time for her to go". :)

Plus the thread's about quality of life.....not potential.
true, I can argue potential for my girls now, because I can see it, but before they were born, not so much.

I think to make a decision like this you have to go with quality of life. I am not in favor of gene testing and then aborting, because of my own feelings about abortion, but, I see no problem with the "parents" (is that the correct term) deciding for whatever reason to just not reproduce.

Based on the quality of life for a celiac, I probably wouldn't have had my girls, because the worst case senario is pretty bad. I don't know that judging by the worst case senario is the best way of deciding, but it's probably irresponsible not to even consider it.

;)

true, I can argue potential for my girls now, because I can see it, but before they were born, not so much.

I think to make a decision like this you have to go with quality of life. I am not in favor of gene testing and then aborting, because of my own feelings about abortion, but, I see no problem with the "parents" (is that the correct term) deciding for whatever reason to just not reproduce.

Based on the quality of life for a celiac, I probably wouldn't have had my girls, because the worst case senario is pretty bad. I don't know that judging by the worst case senario is the best way of deciding, but it's probably irresponsible not to even consider it.

;)

But now you have them you wouldn't be without them. And you did have the second one knowing what was involved. You do seem to be a great mum from from the things you say and the fun you have with them. Smunk, you're a sensible girl and you'll be fine. You're well informed and your kids are probably more intelligent than me :p

If anyone else upsets you by saying horrible stuff then you know what to do:

http://www.owned.com/Owned_Pictures/Funny_Owned_Pics/Mad_at_the_fuzzball_creature/OWNED.html

you do have a Jeep after all ;)

:p

Hey if it's good enough for Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie then it's good enough for me! :D

The idea for the thread mainly come about as people ask me about having kids and also when I say no they ask what would I do if the woman I was with wanted them and wouldn't stay with me if I didn't. I say "then it's time for her to go". :)

People shouldn't bother people about making the decision not to have kids. Not having kids is just as good an option as having kids. But for some reason people act like not having kids is somehow selfish, and I don't understand that.

People shouldn't bother people about making the decision not to have kids. Not having kids is just as good an option as having kids. But for some reason people act like not having kids is somehow selfish, and I don't understand that.

I don't either, but everyone is opinionated on something. Personally I don't think Bon Jovi should exist, but there ya go :p

Many embryos with down syndrome are aborted now. Rightly so in my opinion.


And many prospective parents are told that their "embryo" has down syndrome and abort... and those who don't sometimes find out gee, the doctor was dead wrong.

The idea of not having my niece because my brother and sis-in-law believed the test is sickening. My niece is a perfectly beautiful, perfectly normal and perfectly healthy little girl.

Hi all, for those who don't know anything about me, my name is Matt and I'm diabetic, epileptic and partially colourblind.
I'll probably get some stick for this but here goes.

I've taken the decision never to have kids of my own due to my medical conditions. I just don't think that it's right to have kids if you have any serious medical problems which are hereditary. I've no idea how hereditary my illnesses are but I will not take that risk - how do you deal with a diabetic/epileptic baby?????

Do you think I am right in my choice and what are your views on people with disabilities having children?

Is your diabetes type 1 or type 2? Type 1 diabetes is probably not genetic, but the result of a disease or injury. Type 2 diabetes has a genetic component, but can generally be controlled, if not avoided, by making appropriate lifestyle choices.

I'm unconvinced that epilepsy is necessarily genetic, but I would need to do more research.

I do applaud your decision, however, we have too many people in the world already.

My views on people with disabilities having children is ambiguous. I could probably use the "slippery slope" argument and ask what constitutes a disability and what would the cut-off be. You could go from denying children to the severely retarded to denying them to someone with mild dislexia. Do we deny children to the blind, the nearsighted, an amputee, a paraplegic, a deaf person? Could lack of common sense be considered a disability for this purpose?

This is a really sticky issue, with no good answer.

Sorry but risk of being in a car accident just doesn't compare to the risk of passing on genetic conditions and quality of life. Teenage problems are a factor of life for everyone, these are greatly amplified when you're sick on top. Ages 11-16 consisted of me having lots of fits and going through all the drugs possible for epilepsy, suffering more from side-effects of tablets than the epilepsy itself. The tablets caused weight loss/gain, hair to fall out in large clumps, one affected my balance to the point where I couldn't stand up without falling over, insomnia, vomiting, being very doped up and lethargic and a whole host of other stuff, not to mention the effects of coming off the tablets (body becomes addicted to them). One of the tablets I had is now banned as they discovered it was very dangerous for some reason:eek: I missed most of my school years and was given very shitty predicted grades for my GCSE's by the teachers. I'm a determined little bastard though and I acquired every book possible and taught myself what I needed to know and got good grades in order to prove everyone wrong. On the other hand I don't think it's right for people who can't financially support kids to have them either.:)

Ah, you miss my point, though - I wasn't suggesting that the risk of a car accident is similar to the risk of passing on a genetic disorder, but rather that there is no easy and objective way to decide how much risk is acceptable, or how much suffering is truly unavoidable.

(And I totally sympathize with you on the drug side effects, and on the joys of being a teenager with a serious disorder - been there, done that! Like I said earlier, I have bipolar II, and one of the common treatments for bipolar is actually anticonvulsant drugs. I wouldn't be surprised if we've taken a few of the same pills...)

I've read most of these posts and have started to wonder about something. If we had followed principles of eugenics and only allowed genetically acceptable people to breed, who would not have been born?

For starters, my daughter and son. Daughter - M.Sc. - epidemiology, soon to start a doctoral program. Son - aerospace electronics technician.

Let's see how many others we can come up with.

Thomas Edison was dyslexic - so no electric lights, phonograph records, movies etc. (yes, I know, someone would eventually have invented them, but the point is Edison is the one who did)

How many inventors, educators, statesmen, philanthropists, religious leaders, etc. would not have been born?

How much poorer would our world culture have been if people with disabilities had been prevented from reproducing?

I'm not saying that everyone should immediately go out and have kids in the hopes of producing the next great "savior" of humanity, nor am I coming out as "pro-life" in any religious sense, I just feel that we should think about these things.

I dont think it's wrong for people who are able to have children to have them, but I imagine most people with a disability, depending on it's severity, would assess their ability to properly care for and emotionally support a child and speak to doctors and / or family planning centres to really find out what care their child would need. Maybe they could use of those dolls they give to high school kids that cries and cries and you have to look after it properly? Ok it's no where near the real thing, but they'd get an idea of the demands, and they could use all the info provided to make the best decision for them.

No it isn't they will most probably have to depend of welfare to look after the child.

I've read most of these posts and have started to wonder about something. If we had followed principles of eugenics and only allowed genetically acceptable people to breed, who would not have been born?

For starters, my daughter and son. Daughter - M.Sc. - epidemiology, soon to start a doctoral program. Son - aerospace electronics technician.

Let's see how many others we can come up with.

Thomas Edison was dyslexic - so no electric lights, phonograph records, movies etc. (yes, I know, someone would eventually have invented them, but the point is Edison is the one who did)

How many inventors, educators, statesmen, philanthropists, religious leaders, etc. would not have been born?

How much poorer would our world culture have been if people with disabilities had been prevented from reproducing?

I'm not saying that everyone should immediately go out and have kids in the hopes of producing the next great "savior" of humanity, nor am I coming out as "pro-life" in any religious sense, I just feel that we should think about these things.

I understand what you are saying, but that isn't really the point of the thred (or what I can gather of the point of the thred) the OP isn't really advocating a law against people with disabilities reproducing, but asking if it's a reasonable excuse not to. My point is that anything is a reasonable excuse not to reproduce, and further it's really none of our business. You can't really be pro-choice and then also tell someone that thier decision not to have children is wrong, can you?

I understand what you are saying, but that isn't really the point of the thred (or what I can gather of the point of the thred) the OP isn't really advocating a law against people with disabilities reproducing, but asking if it's a reasonable excuse not to. My point is that anything is a reasonable excuse not to reproduce, and further it's really none of our business. You can't really be pro-choice and then also tell someone that thier decision not to have children is wrong, can you?

Basically I'm asking is it morally right for the parents to do so and at which point (how serious their potential child's geneticaly inherited disability) does it become blatantly wrong?
:fluffle:

Basically I'm asking is it morally right for the parents to do so and at which point (how serious their potential child's geneticaly inherited disability) does it become blatantly wrong?
:fluffle:
I don't know that it's ever morally wrong.

Ah, you miss my point, though - I wasn't suggesting that the risk of a car accident is similar to the risk of passing on a genetic disorder, but rather that there is no easy and objective way to decide how much risk is acceptable, or how much suffering is truly unavoidable.

(And I totally sympathize with you on the drug side effects, and on the joys of being a teenager with a serious disorder - been there, done that! Like I said earlier, I have bipolar II, and one of the common treatments for bipolar is actually anticonvulsant drugs. I wouldn't be surprised if we've taken a few of the same pills...)

Are fits part of Bipolar then? Worst drug I had was Epilim - that's the one they banned. It's been fiddled with and brought back now though. :(

On lamotrigine at mo and my only side effect of that is v.mild insomnia, once I got it, it was like miracle cure for me. I can't go near strobe lights but apart from that I'm sound. A friend of my mum's saw an article about the British Epilepsy centre in London and Lamotrigine which was a brand new drug at the time, we went to the docs and got referred and now it's all good. Being wired to machines is interesting! I became a part-time Borg! :p

I don't know that it's ever morally wrong.

But if you have very serious illnesses and they will definately or have a high chance of being passed on causing suffering and short life span - how can that NOT be morally wrong for the parents to do so???????
:confused:

Is your diabetes type 1 or type 2? Type 1 diabetes is probably not genetic, but the result of a disease or injury. Type 2 diabetes has a genetic component, but can generally be controlled, if not avoided, by making appropriate lifestyle choices.

I'm unconvinced that epilepsy is necessarily genetic, but I would need to do more research.

I do applaud your decision, however, we have too many people in the world already.

My views on people with disabilities having children is ambiguous. I could probably use the "slippery slope" argument and ask what constitutes a disability and what would the cut-off be. You could go from denying children to the severely retarded to denying them to someone with mild dislexia. Do we deny children to the blind, the nearsighted, an amputee, a paraplegic, a deaf person? Could lack of common sense be considered a disability for this purpose?

This is a really sticky issue, with no good answer.

That is true.....v. grey area. Type 1 Diabetes. Grand mal Epilepsy. I'm not trying to create a super-race of perfect people here, we shouldn't go to extremes, but as I said earlier, if someone can't look after themselves and rely on a carer then they shouldn't have kids, clinically insane maybe shouldn't and those with very serious illnesses. It's up to the prospective parents though.

But if you have very serious illnesses and they will definately or have a high chance of being passed on causing suffering and short life span - how can that NOT be morally wrong for the parents to do so???????
:confused:
That depends, can you provide me with an example of the odds for such an illness passing on?

I do think it is uncool for a person to have kids if they will be likely to pass on a genetic disease.

That depends, can you provide me with an example of the odds for such an illness passing on?

HIV and Aids is a cert.

Who is to judge who is disabled,?

Who is to judge who is disabled,?

Parents should have the best idea what the kids life could involve and whether it's right to inflict said condition on the child. That and advice from doctors.

Parents should have the best idea what the kids life could involve and whether it's right to inflict said condition on the child. That and advice from doctors.
yes they know what is best for you,

yes they know what is best for you,

I'd hope so. My doctors have all been pretty good so far apart from 2 GP's.

I'd hope so. Mine have all been pretty good so far apart from 2 GP's.
next time use the picto's please

next time use the picto's please
:confused:

Depends on whether or not the genes that control it are dominant or recessive.
Dominant=no
Recessive=maybe
If both partners have the same gene, then no.

:confused:
do you know what a pictogram is?

do you know what a pictogram is?

Yes I do. Are you questioning my ability to communicate?