NationStates Jolt Archive

... ever admitted that the Bible is indeed fabricated? The whole thing around Judaism, Christianity and Islam would just fall apart. What would folks turn to then? To the beliefs that existed before or other new beliefs? Or would folks stop believing and start learning and thus knowing?

The Bible isn't the holy book of Judaism I don't believe. Nice try though.

Islam and Judaism would not fall apart. They use the Koran and the Torah.

The Bible isn't the holy book of Judaism I don't believe. Nice try though.

The Torah/Tanakh is the holy book of Judaism and it was refered to as "the book" i.e. bible already before the Christians added their stuff to it.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all based on the same story.

The Tanaakh is the holy book of Judaism and it was refered to as "the book" i.e. bible already before the Christians added their stuff to it.
Then the Bible is the holy book of the Christians. The Jews can save whatever they want about it and no one will care.

Then the Bible is the holy book of the Christians. The Jews can save whatever they want about it and no one will care.
Are you on drugs? The Jewish Bible is what is now the Old Testament in the Christian Bible. It's still the Bible, no matter what assembly of stories (with/without New Testament) you follow.

Are you on drugs? The Jewish Bible is what is now the Old Testament in the Christian Bible. It's still the Bible, no matter what canon you follow.
No.
The Bible is the combination of the old and new testaments.

No.
The Bible is the combination of the old and new testaments.
The Septuaginta is the earliest Bible and it sure had no New Testament.
The Old Testament is called a Bible even without the NT.

And now back to the question: what would happen if the Jews admitted that the theological basis of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is unsubstantial.

... ever admitted that the Bible is indeed fabricated? The whole thing around Judaism, Christianity and Islam would just fall apart. What would folks turn to then? To the beliefs that existed before or other new beliefs? Or would folks stop believing and start learning and thus knowing?

Well, wait, what Jews would be saying this? What authority would they have to say whether it's fabricated? Nothing would fall apart.

Now, maybe if someone found a letter historically proven to be penned by Jesus, something along the lines of "Haha these idiots all believe me. I'm so totally gonna WTFPWN the world. Starting with those pansy Romans."

... ever admitted that the Bible is indeed fabricated? The whole thing around Judaism, Christianity and Islam would just fall apart. What would folks turn to then? To the beliefs that existed before or other new beliefs? Or would folks stop believing and start learning and thus knowing?

It wouldn't make any difference. People don't follow religions because they make sense or can be proved.

There are a number of good reasons why Jesus is not the messiah of the Hebrew scripture, and that debate has been circulation for almost 20 centuries... but it has done nothing to dampen the spread of Christianity.

shhhh

dont say anything!
the Priests of Zion dont want you to

It wouldn't make any difference. People don't follow religions because they make sense or can be proved.

There are a number of good reasons why Jesus is not the messiah of the Hebrew scripture, and that debate has been circulation for almost 20 centuries... but it has done nothing to dampen the spread of Christianity.

So people would hold on to something although they know it's wrong? I mean this is somewhat different from not believing in Jesus as the messiah.
If the Jews would announce that Abraham never spoke to god and that the story and all successive stories of the Bible involving god were made up much later by the Bible's authors, that would change nothing? If the entire theological aspect of the Bible was taken away, people would still believe in the Bible?

So people would hold on to something although they know it's wrong? I mean this is somewhat different from not believing in Jesus as the messiah.
If the Jews would announce that Abraham never spoke to god and that the story and all successive stories of the Bible involving god were made up much later by the Bible's authors, that would change nothing? If the entire theological aspect of the Bible was taken away, people would still believe in the Bible?

Some people believe the Bible is literal history. Even if you could somehow 'prove' the supernatural bits to be just stories, people would still accept the text as literal...

I don't know about if they 'know it is wrong'. When presented with evidence for something unfortunate, illogical or inconsistent, people usually manage to find a rationalisation.

Why would they? Why would people rather trust their feelings or beliefs instead of their intellect? Just because of laziness?

So people would hold on to something although they know it's wrong? I mean this is somewhat different from not believing in Jesus as the messiah.
If the Jews would announce that Abraham never spoke to god and that the story and all successive stories of the Bible involving god were made up much later by the Bible's authors, that would change nothing? If the entire theological aspect of the Bible was taken away, people would still believe in the Bible?


How would anyone know this sudden proclamation by "the Jews" is true?
What "Jews" would proclaim this? All of them? Some hidden secret society holding onto a DaVinci-esque Code type of revelation that shatters all accepted knowledge of the history of the Abrahamic faiths?

Your question is too hypothetical to formulate a good answer to it.

Why would they? Why would people rather trust their feelings or beliefs instead of their intellect? Just because of laziness?

I can't say WHY they would. They just... do.

... ever admitted that the Bible is indeed fabricated? The whole thing around Judaism, Christianity and Islam would just fall apart. What would folks turn to then? To the beliefs that existed before or other new beliefs? Or would folks stop believing and start learning and thus knowing?
I'm confused as to why Islam would fall apart.. it being based on the Quoran and all. Most christians i know believe in the jesus-type part of the bible, not the old testament, so Jews admitting that part was false wouldn't have much of an effect most likely.

Liasia']"Why is pot against the law? It wouldn't be because anyone can grow it, and therefore you can't make a profit off it, would it?"



From your sig.

Of course not.
Anyone can grow soybeans, yet they are a profitable cash crop.

From your sig.

Of course not.
Anyone can grow soybeans, yet they are a profitable cash crop.
:rolleyes: So why are ciggarettes and alcohol legal? Besides, I suspect cannabis is a crapload easier to grow than most crops.

... ever admitted that the Bible is indeed fabricated? The whole thing around Judaism, Christianity and Islam would just fall apart. What would folks turn to then? To the beliefs that existed before or other new beliefs? Or would folks stop believing and start learning and thus knowing?

My public school teacher already taught the class that the Bible was made up, so why would this be anything new?

Nod, may I ask what grade and what country you are in? I'm curious because you seem to have an inquisitive mind.

... ever admitted that the Bible is indeed fabricated? The whole thing around Judaism, Christianity and Islam would just fall apart. What would folks turn to then? To the beliefs that existed before or other new beliefs? Or would folks stop believing and start learning and thus knowing?


This makes no sense whatsover. Please stop.

And who the fuck would make the announcement, the "Chief Spokesman For The Jews'? They aren't a secret society, organisation or bingo club...

Liasia']I'm confused as to why Islam would fall apart.. it being based on the Quoran and all. Most christians i know believe in the jesus-type part of the bible, not the old testament, so Jews admitting that part was false wouldn't have much of an effect most likely.

If Christians ignore the Old Testament... then what is the point in calling Jesus Messiah (Old Testament) or Christ (Greek term, referring to Messiah)?

Also - Islam holds the Greek and Hebrew scriptures to be important holy texts. Ishmael is the 'father of Islam'... and without the Hebrew record, there is no 'evidence' for Ishmael.

How would anyone know this sudden proclamation by "the Jews" is true?
What "Jews" would proclaim this? All of them? Some hidden secret society holding onto a DaVinci-esque Code type of revelation that shatters all accepted knowledge of the history of the Abrahamic faiths?

Your question is too hypothetical to formulate a good answer to it.

We are not talking about the history of the Abrahamic faiths, we are talking about the Abrahamic faiths themselves. There is in fact no knowledge about those, it's all just accepted beliefs.
Now if there was a faction within Judaism that started to admit that their ideological ancestors added to the historical facts their own wishful theology, and if this faction would become too strong to ignore and evidence was on their side (which would of course mean that they cease to be Jews), what would happen?

PS: I know nothing of Dan Brown's tales

If Christians ignore the Old Testament... then what is the point in calling Jesus Messiah (Old Testament) or Christ (Greek term, referring to Messiah)?

Also - Islam holds the Greek and Hebrew scriptures to be important holy texts. Ishmael is the 'father of Islam'... and without the Hebrew record, there is no 'evidence' for Ishmael.
Not ignore per se, just take the morals jesus propogated instead of the good ol' ten commandments. You know, a god of forgiveness and compassion instead of soddom and gommorah.

As for the second part- meh.

... ever admitted that the Bible is indeed fabricated? The whole thing around Judaism, Christianity and Islam would just fall apart. What would folks turn to then? To the beliefs that existed before or other new beliefs? Or would folks stop believing and start learning and thus knowing?
The Bible was simply a collection of all the Myths and History the Jews knew about themselves, well the Old Testament anyway. They thought their race was gonna die out, so they put it together. Just a mere ghost-of-an-abridged version still exists.

I read that in a book, "Agustus Caeser's Life", it's out of print now I beleive, but it's a good book.

This makes no sense whatsover. Please stop.

And who the fuck would make the announcement, the "Chief Spokesman For The Jews'? They aren't a secret society, organisation or bingo club...

OK, what if the pope declared that everything theological in the Bible including the Old Testament is fabricated? All the same. This makes much sense.

Wait...so, now our story is that "the Jews" are in a conspiracy to keep the entire Bible, and all its derivative religions, afloat, for some kind of world-deceiving evil goal?

Put down Mein Kampf, take a deep breath, take your pills, and call your psychiatrist. I'm sure he'd love to hear this newest development.

OK, what if the pope declared that everything theological in the Bible including the Old Testament is fabricated? All the same. This makes much sense.

Pope = Catholics = Christians = Not "the Jews"

Liasia']Not ignore per se, just take the morals jesus propogated instead of the good ol' ten commandments. You know, a god of forgiveness and compassion instead of soddom and gommorah.

As for the second part- meh.

I'm confused... I though you were asking why it would impact Islam. And, I thought you said something about most Christians believing the New Testament OVER the Old.

Wait...so, now our story is that "the Jews" are in a conspiracy to keep the entire Bible, and all its derivative religions, afloat, for some kind of world-deceiving evil goal?

Put down Mein Kampf, take a deep breath, take your pills, and call your psychiatrist. I'm sure he'd love to hear this newest development.

Well, it doesn't take a conspiracy, faith and adherence to the Bible are obviously sufficient.

OK, what if the pope declared that everything theological in the Bible including the Old Testament is fabricated? All the same. This makes much sense.

That means that the head of the Catholic church has said that everything theological in the Bible including the Old Testament is fabricated. He could not be speaking for all catholics, because they would know SFA about it.

Well, it doesn't take a conspiracy. Faith is obviously sufficient.

Faith does not entail that they are deliberately keeping something like "we made the whole thing up" quiet, nor would a loss of faith by all of Judaism amount to any kind of "announcement."

We are not talking about the history of the Abrahamic faiths, we are talking about the Abrahamic faiths themselves. There is in fact no knowledge about those, it's all just accepted beliefs.
Now if there was a faction within Judaism that started to admit that their ideological ancestors added to the historical facts their own wishful theology, and if this faction would become too strong to ignore and evidence was on their side (which would of course mean that they cease to be Jews), what would happen?

PS: I know nothing of Dan Brown's tales

Even though I believe all religion causes problems for society, much like John Lennon did in his song Imagine, it's important to draw a distinction between Christianity and Islam.

Christianity, which many regard as the one true Faith, is entirely consistent with the Hebrew Scripture, and study of the Old Testament Scripture is an integral part of the holy Faith.

Islam, on the other hand, doesn't encourage study of the Old (or New) Testament, and instead replaces it Mohammed's Meccan and Medinian teachings (the Qur'an), many of which, especially in the Medinian period, describe a god completely different from the God revealed in the Old Testament, and, more completely, in the New Testament.

The people who keep lumping in Islam with Christianity (and Judaism) are just trying to attack Christianity. Maybe you should study the faith of your ancestors, sometimes people of the past weren't as stupid as you might think.

This being said, I oppose all religion because it hurts Gaia and the world. We would have so much progress without religion, and, more importantly, my parents might stop telling me not to have sex and drugs all the time.

Faith does not entail that they are deliberately keeping something like "we made the whole thing up" quiet, nor would a loss of faith by all of Judaism amount to any kind of "announcement."
It does not have to be a single announcement by someone, it could also be a growing realization spreading within Judaism that would of course impact the other religions that are built on Jewish lore.
.

It does not have top be a single announcement by someone, it could also be a growing realization spreading within Judaism that would of course impact the other religions that are built on Jewish lore.

Anyhow, do you not realize that many progressive scientists have been trying to do this for at least a century now? There are several progressive "documentaries" that expose the myth of Christianity.

The God Who Wasn't There is one of them.

Even though I believe all religion causes problems for society, much like John Lennon did in his song Imagine, it's important to draw a distinction between Christianity and Islam.

Christianity, which many regard as the one true Faith, is entirely consistent with the Hebrew Scripture, and study of the Old Testament Scripture is an integral part of the holy Faith.

Islam, on the other hand, doesn't encourage study of the Old (or New) Testament, and instead replaces it Mohammed's Meccan and Medinian teachings (the Qur'an), many of which, especially in the Medinian period, describe a god completely different from the God revealed in the Old Testament, and, more completely, in the New Testament.

The people who keep lumping in Islam with Christianity (and Judaism) are just trying to attack Christianity. Maybe you should study the faith of your ancestors, sometimes people of the past weren't as stupid as you might think.

This being said, I oppose all religion because it hurts Gaia and the world. We would have so much progress without religion, and, more importantly, my parents might stop telling me not to have sex and drugs all the time.

Rubbish.

If one actually compares the fundamentals of the three faiths, the 'odd one out' of the three IS Christianity. It implies Messiah has already come, it allows for more than one incarnation of God, and it changes the Covenant Law.

Those who try to claim that Christianity follows the Hebrew scripture have obviously never actually read either.

Anyhow, do you not realize that many progressive scientists have been trying to do this for at least a century now? There are several progressive "documentaries" that expose the myth of Christianity.

The God Who Wasn't There is one of them.

But Christianity is depending entirely on Judaism. Without the theology of the Torah there would be no Christianity. After all, Jesus also was a Jew and he adhered to the respective teachings, although he criticized their implementation.
So if those who are the keepers of the Torah and the theology therein would say that this theology is false, what would happen?

It does not have top be a single announcement by someone, it could also be a growing realization spreading within Judaism that would of course impact the other religions that are built on Jewish lore.

Yeah, because one faith dying has always meant that the others fall apart around it, just like when the Greeks stopped believing in Zeus, and Rome instantly stopped having religion...or when Zoroastrianism, which is credited as being the religion that Judaism's monotheism is based around, fell to less than 10,000 members ages ago, and Judaism fell apart around it, as well...

Oh wait, that's right, neither of those things ended subsequent religions.

Why would Judaism be any different?

Rubbish.

If one actually compares the fundamentals of the three faiths, the 'odd one out' of the three IS Christianity. It implies Messiah has already come, it allows for more than one incarnation of God, and it changes the Covenant Law.

Those who try to claim that Christianity follows the Hebrew scripture have obviously never actually read either.

I know in Britain the "in" crowd says that religion is obsolete and Christianity is oppressive and mean. (C.S. Lewis made note of it in his book Mere Christianity.) If you think it's more important to follow the in crowd, then it's fine to junk Christianity, have fun at the club, be careful of getting STD's or a dirty needle though.

But if you want to do what is right, and give glory to God, and follow Him, then you will follow the Bible.

I, on the other hand, am picking option 1. I understand, like a lot of my fellow teenagers on this forum, that it's hard to pick the immoral choice without at least attacking the people who pick the morally straight way. I accept my immoral decisions, so I don't need to attack Christianity, so you should too. Or otherwise, become a Christian.

It does not have to be a single announcement by someone, it could also be a growing realization spreading within Judaism that would of course impact the other religions that are built on Jewish lore.
.

I think most Jews don't believe in Judaism (as a religion) anymore, because I know many Jews are progressive. This hasn't impacted Christianity all that much, especially in the Third World, and AMERICA.

I know in Britain the "in" crowd says that religion is obsolete and Christianity is oppressive and mean. (C.S. Lewis made note of it in his book Mere Christianity.) If you think it's more important to follow the in crowd, then it's fine to junk Christianity, have fun at the club, be careful of getting STD's or a dirty needle though.

But if you want to do what is right, and give glory to God, and follow Him, then you will follow the Bible.

I, on the other hand, am picking option 1. I understand, like a lot of my fellow teenagers on this forum, that it's hard to pick the immoral choice without at least attacking the people who pick the morally straight way. I accept my immoral decisions, so I don't need to attack Christianity, so you should too. Or otherwise, become a Christian.

I have almost no idea what you are talking about. I have even less idea what you think this has to do with what I posted, or the topic of the thread.

And, having read, and failed to comprehend, your offering... I'm really not sure I care to have you explain.

I think most Jews don't believe in Judaism (as a religion) anymore, because I know many Jews are progressive. This hasn't impacted Christianity all that much, especially in the Third World, and AMERICA.

Sometimes when I think of all the oppression, both within America, and arouond the world, caused by American Christians, I cry. I wish Europe would rise up and crush America and impose progressive scientific beliefs on them. :(

I have almost no idea what you are talking about. I have even less idea what you think this has to do with what I posted, or the topic of the thread.

And, having read, and failed to comprehend, your offering... I'm really not sure I care to have you explain.

OK, to be more blunt, even though I hate religion, I feel that most people want to "disprove" Christianity so they can feel better about being immoral. But, I don't need to bash Christianity, just be open about your choice to NOT follow God, instead of trying to attack the good people that do follow Him.

I think most Jews don't believe in Judaism (as a religion) anymore, because I know many Jews are progressive. This hasn't impacted Christianity all that much, especially in the Third World, and AMERICA.
A person can be progressive while still believing in their religion. Most Jews(speaking as one) do believe to a certain extant their religion.

OK, to be more blunt, even though I hate religion, I feel that most people want to "disprove" Christianity so they can feel better about being immoral. But, I don't need to bash Christianity, just be open about your choice to NOT follow God, instead of trying to attack the good people that do follow Him.

O...kay.

And... what would that have to do with my post, which you apparently think this would be a response to?

Yeah, because one faith dying has always meant that the others fall apart around it, just like when the Greeks stopped believing in Zeus, and Rome instantly stopped having religion...or when Zoroastrianism, which is credited as being the religion that Judaism's monotheism is based around, fell to less than 10,000 members ages ago, and Judaism fell apart around it, as well...

Oh wait, that's right, neither of those things ended subsequent religions.

Why would Judaism be any different?

Because of the way information goes around the globe today. If Judaism fell apart that would take away the basis of Christianity and Islam would have no more justification for their teachings. If they could no longer build their stuff onto Abraham's alleged connection to a god, what logic could they apply to maintain their beliefs?

Because of the way information goes around the globe today. If Judaism fell apart that would take away the basis of Christianity and Islam and followers of the latter two would have no more justification for their teachings. If they could no longer build their stuff onto Abraham's alleged connection to a god, what logic could they apply to maintain their beliefs?

But it wouldnt 'fall apart'.

Sometimes when I think of all the oppression, both within America, and arouond the world, caused by American Christians, I cry. I wish Europe would rise up and crush America and impose progressive scientific beliefs on them. :(

Do you honestly believe half the nonsense your spewing?

But it wouldnt 'fall apart'.

Because they would never admit that their religion is unsubstantial and fabricated? Because they would rather stick to thheir beliefs and remain Jews instead of dropping religion and present the facts?

Because of the way information goes around the globe today. If Judaism fell apart that would take away the basis of Christianity and Islam would have no more justification for their teachings. If they could no longer build their stuff onto Abraham's alleged connection to a god, what logic could they apply to maintain their beliefs?

Because then Judaism becomes a dead religion, which the live religion, Christianity, can define as it pleases. That might be a plus for Christians, actually, because it takes away the ever-present chance that young Christians will be confronted by a very knowledgable Jew who will tell them all the crap that they've been taught about Jews is wrong (I went to Catholic school. Believe me, they no longer care what the Jews believe. It's all Jesus...and they've even put words in His mouth...)

Edit: 69 posts. :cool:

And now back to the question: what would happen if the Jews admitted that the theological basis of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is unsubstantial.

We did ... nobody listened.

We laugh.

Because they would never admit that their religion is unsubstantial and fabricated? Because they would rather stick to thheir beliefs and remain Jews instead of dropping religion and present the facts?

Firstly there is no mnolithic group that can be pointed at an called 'the Jews'. Theres reformed, orthodox, ultra-orthodox, conservative..... Why would one lot believe the other?

Secondly, its been shown for decades now that the majority of the old testament is a crock of shite. Has religon vanished? No. Theres even a resurgence in creationist crap in the states, by all appearances.

And the last widely published book that explained how the various events in the old testament were untrue that I remember, was written by two Israelis.

Because then Judaism becomes a dead religion, which the live religion, Christianity, can define as it pleases. That might be a plus for Christians, actually, because it takes away the ever-present chance that young Christians will be confronted by a very knowledgable Jew who will tell them all the crap that they've been taught about Jews is wrong (I went to Catholic school. Believe me, they no longer care what the Jews believe. It's all Jesus...and they've even put words in His mouth...)

But since Catholics believe that Jesus is in fact the Old Testament god they would surely have difficulties to explain their teachings if the Jews admitted that the Old Testament god was in fact very different to the biblical image or that he did not even exist.

A person can be progressive while still believing in their religion. Most Jews(speaking as one) do believe to a certain extant their religion.

Whenever a particular branch of religion goes "progressive," they tend to experience a major fall off in committed believers. If you compare Reform to Orthodox, I bet you will find a much stronger belief in God within the ranks of the Orthodox.

Reform let's an individual believe whatever he wants to believe, so your point about to a certain extent isn't surprising. Once we enterain the idea that humans can substitute their will in place of God's will, what's the point of taking seriously anything that God demands of us?

But since Catholics believe that Jesus is in fact the Old Testament god they would surely have difficulties to explain their teachings if the Jews admitted that the Old Testament god was in fact very different to the biblical image or that he did not even exist.

In that case, Catholics will believe that Jews have lost Faith. They will pray for them, pity them, and some psycho sects of Christianity will find new justification for their Hitler-esque desire to eradicate the Jews.

Oh, and the Mid-eastern Muslims? Heh, you think they're mean to Jews now...

Firstly there is no mnolithic group that can be pointed at an called 'the Jews'. Theres reformed, orthodox, ultra-orthodox, conservative..... Why would one lot believe the other?

Secondly, its been shown for decades now that the majority of the old testament is a crock of shite. Has religon vanished? No. Theres even a resurgence in creationist crap in the states, by all appearances.

And the last widely published book that explained how the various events in the old testament were untrue that I remember, was written by two Israelis.

Jews are those who believe in Yahweh as described in the Torah. This belief makes them "the Jews".

So far those who tried to attack Judaism or Christianity were trying to find the flaws in the history the Bible narrates. But they all had to admit that most of the biblical history-telling is sufficiently accurate. Almost no-one has ever tried to show that while the history in the Bible is reliable to a certain extent the whole theological aspect of the Bible is fabricated and that the folks
described in the Bible never believed in Yahweh in the way the Bible narrates.
Why would people ignore facts like Abraham believing the same as all his contemporaries? Because they want their current beliefs verified by the invented past?

In that case, Catholics will believe that Jews have lost Faith. They will pray for them, pity them, and some psycho sects of Christianity will find new justification for their Hitler-esque desire to eradicate the Jews.

Did Hitler believe in the sanctity of life? The inviolability of life is one of the highest moral commandments in Christianity.

I believe the Nazi's based most of their theories on Darwinism, which is your religion Nermid....

But anyhow, I hate religion, remember John Lennon's Imagine. I'm glad Europe is so advanced that we no longer follow any oppressive moral notions, other than that the government shall provide everyone free healthcare, including contraception. (Funny how government schools tend to produce teenagers that worship government. Is it a coincidence?)

Jews are those who believe in Yahweh as described in the Torah. This belief makes them "the Jews".

So far those who tried to attack Judaism or Christianity were trying to find the flaws in the history the Bible narrates. But they all had to admit that most of the biblical history-telling is sufficiently accurate. Almost no-one has ever tried to show that while the history in the Bible is reliable to a certain extent the whole theological aspect of the Bible is fabricated and that the folks
described in the Bible never believed in Yahweh in the way the Bible narrates.
Why would people ignore facts like Abraham believing the same as all his contemporaries? Because they want their current beliefs verified by the invented past?

Instead of trying to find a verse or two that looks suspecious, and then using it as a way to void (in your mind) the moral law and go back to World of Warcraft II or smoking some pot. Instead, why not stop by a church service and talk to the people? Find some kids your age and talk to the minister. I'm sure he can answer a lot of your questions. (If your Jewish, you can substitute your rabbi for that, or feel free to still stop by a church service.)

The reason that Christianity is attacked so much is that, as God has said, the moral law is written on every man's heart. It's hard to get away from it. So I understand your rage at your own conscience.

Did Hitler believe in the sanctity of life? The inviolability of life is one of the highest moral commandments in Christianity.


Yes, yes, Thou shalt not kill. Like nobody's ever killed in the name of Christianity? Besides, you'll note I said they were psycho groups...like Fred Phelps or the KKK. That sort of people.


I believe the Nazi's based most of their theories on Darwinism, which is your religion Nermid....

I'm not a Darwinist, thanks much. I'm not an atheist or a Christian, either. Besides, the Nazi philosophy was not "based" on anything but one guy who wanted an excuse to conquer the world.



But anyhow, I hate religion, remember John Lennon's Imagine. I'm glad Europe is so advanced that we no longer follow any oppressive moral notions, other than that the government shall provide everyone free healthcare, including contraception. (Funny how government schools tend to produce teenagers that worship government. Is it a coincidence?)

Europe does plenty of funky things...and they've got a more colorful history of religious oppression than America can compare to...

Besides, much as I love Lennon, he was unrealistic. Fanaticism is the problem, not Faith. There are fanatic atheists, and they are just as contemptible as the fanatic theists.


Almost no-one has ever tried to show that while the history in the Bible is reliable to a certain extent the whole theological aspect of the Bible is fabricated and that the folks
described in the Bible never believed in Yahweh in the way the Bible narrates.

This has actually been discussed in great length. The contention is that El and Yahweh were actually two separate deities...

The contention is that El and Yahweh were actually two separate deities...

I don't think Phelps wants to kill anyone. All he does is tell homosexuals they are going to hell. This is somewhat obnoxious, I admit, and he deserves condemnation, but he is not lying. Unless a homosexual repents and returns to God, he will go to hell.

Now, on your quote. Why do you spend so much time attacking the faith? Does it bring you happiness? I don't think you really understand why people believe. It's your own lack of understanding that leads you be intolerant of God's faithful people.

The reason that Christianity is attacked so much is that....

The modern church can't keep it's nose in it's own business?

I don't think Phelps wants to kill anyone. All he does is tell homosexuals they are going to hell. This is somewhat obnoxious, I admit, and he deserves condemnation, but he is not lying. Unless a homosexual repents and returns to God, he will go to hell.

Now, on your quote. Why do you spend so much time attacking the faith? Does it bring you happiness? I don't think you really understand why people believe. It's your own lack of understanding that leads you be intolerant of God's faithful people.

What god?

I don't think Phelps wants to kill anyone. All he does is tell homosexuals they are going to hell.

And tells the American Press that 9/11 and the deaths of allied soldiers in Iraq are caused by the presence of homosexuals in the US being 'tolerated'...

The contention is that El and Yahweh were actually two separate deities...

I know that pretty well. But why do others not know that or choose to ignore it? There must be some drive in people that lets them actively keep faith over facts. What are they afraid to lose? Their value as humans? Or their place in the afterlife?

I don't think Phelps wants to kill anyone. All he does is tell homosexuals they are going to hell. This is somewhat obnoxious, I admit, and he deserves condemnation, but he is not lying. Unless a homosexual repents and returns to God, he will go to hell.

Now, on your quote. Why do you spend so much time attacking the faith? Does it bring you happiness? I don't think you really understand why people believe. It's your own lack of understanding that leads you be intolerant of God's faithful people.

I thank you for your concern, but as the Nazarene said, take first the beam from thine own eye before pointing out the splinter in your brother's. Until your soul is perfect, judge me not. You'll notice that, biting as they may be to the Church, my comments have been a rebuke to this religion-is-a-plague-on-mankind hogwash.


And tells the American Press that 9/11 and the deaths of allied soldiers in Iraq are caused by the presence of homosexuals in the US being 'tolerated'...

No, he actually says that they are caused by God punishing the US for tolerating gays. Sodom/Gammorah kind of thing.

Because Phelps is a psycho, like I said earlier.

Because of the way information goes around the globe today. If Judaism fell apart that would take away the basis of Christianity and Islam would have no more justification for their teachings. If they could no longer build their stuff onto Abraham's alleged connection to a god, what logic could they apply to maintain their beliefs?
Then the inconsistencies between mean-kid-with-a-magnifying-glass-God (the old testament) and the "Whoa man, don't be hating." new testament God would finally be explained. In that they ain't the same God. The world would keep spinning. (Note: I DON'T believe the old testament is a fabrication, this is a hypothetical answer, I'm not a Nazi, or a skinhead or any of that crap.)

So, all I'd have to do, as a Jew, is say, "Haha, joke's on you guys! We made it up!" Then we wouldn't have to deal with any of this nonsense again?

...well, guess what I'm about to say.

Then the inconsistencies between mean-kid-with-a-magnifying-glass-God (the old testament) and the "Whoa man, don't be hating." new testament God would finally be explained. In that they ain't the same God. The world would keep spinning. (Note: I DON'T believe the old testament is a fabrication, this is a hypothetical answer, I'm not a Nazi, or a skinhead or any of that crap.)

I just had an image of Jesus before the Sanhedrin saying "Whoa, man, don't be hatin'. It's cool, baby, we're all in the Jew-hizzle here."

Then the inconsistencies between mean-kid-with-a-magnifying-glass-God (the old testament) and the "Whoa man, don't be hating." new testament God would finally be explained. In that they ain't the same God. The world would keep spinning. (Note: I DON'T believe the old testament is a fabrication, this is a hypothetical answer, I'm not a Nazi, or a skinhead or any of that crap.)

Other way round, if anything.

The Old Testament God was a geezer... jokes with Sarai, shows people his arse, does ventriloquist tricks with donkeys, etc. Sure - he has a temper... but he let's you know he's pissed before he gets even.

It's the New Testament version who is unapproachable and cold.

... ever admitted that the Bible is indeed fabricated? The whole thing around Judaism, Christianity and Islam would just fall apart. What would folks turn to then? To the beliefs that existed before or other new beliefs? Or would folks stop believing and start learning and thus knowing?


Well, actually, my view of the matter is that everything except for one very small but very important part (the one where it states that G*d made the Mosaic covenant with everyone, and told them to use the Oral Torah in tandem with the Written) _is_ "Fabricated".

The Torah cannot be the literally dictated word of G*d. And as far as I know, this is at least a valid position in Jewish theology if perhaps an uncommon one. The point is G*d made one brief contact with humanity at Sinai and then we had to sort out what it meant on our own.

The Torah is the _inspired_ (and not divinely in the sense of that twit King James) by the _idea_ of G*d....but humans had to work out what that idea meant for them. If there is a G*d, that is how G*d intended it to work, if there is not, then the Jews were just _really smart_.

The Prophets (immo) were not prescient, they were just shrewd judges of their world who were somewhat lucky. (They did have to make non trivial prophecies after all, to be valid) The requirement for Prophecy for writing in the Written Torah was effectively a mechanism to select for only allowing very smart people to debate the fundamental nature and content of G*d's law.

The Oral Torah was where the runners up went. After a certain point the world got too complex, no one could guess well enough to be a prophet. Thus there were no new books in the written Torah and all debate went to the Oral Torah.

And that's what the Torah, written and oral, is: it's a debate about what G*d's law is and how to carry it out, woven into the early history of the Jews.

It is possible there was _no_ contact, too....but the works of Jewish society in creating a superior form of human organization still stands...all the more impressively, if it is purely human artifice.

so my answer in short is ....so what indeed ?

I thank you for your concern, but as the Nazarene said, take first the beam from thine own eye before pointing out the splinter in your brother's. Until your soul is perfect, judge me not. You'll notice that, biting as they may be to the Church, my comments have been a rebuke to this religion-is-a-plague-on-mankind hogwash.

It's funny how someone learns how to program in Java, and then thinks this disproves God.

Progressives/socialists like to bring this up to attack Christians. But Christ loved righteousness, and He would not sanction or say we should accept and promote immorality.

He was only using this to show His forgiveness. When he stopped the crowds from stoning the adultress, he said to her "go and sin no more."

Jesus also said "love thy neighbor," but this is an expansion upon the Old Testament commandment, where it clearly does not mean "accept immorality." In fact the Scripture says don't let your neighbor bring you into sin, and also that you may have to warn your neighbor of his error.

Loving neighbor as self does not mean tolerating bad/immoral behavior. What Christ generally meant is that when you have a morally neutral dispute with your neighbor, you should still love him and pray for him, because he too is made in God's image. However, when someone is acting immorally, you do not accept the immorality, you help the person return to God. This is what Christ Himself did during his earthly ministry, and does for each for us now and for ever.

It's funny how someone learns how to program in Java, and then thinks this disproves God.

I'm sure you're referencing something, but I honestly have no idea what. I'm quoting Scripture.


Progressives/socialists like to bring this up to attack Christians. But Christ loved righteousness, and He would not sanction or say we should accept and promote immorality.

He was only using this to show His forgiveness. When he stopped the crowds from stoning the adultress, he said to her "go and sin no more."

Ah, you're in a completely different passage, but that works, too. You'll note that he tells her to go and sin no more. He did not tell the people to tell her to go and sin no more...and you're no Jesus...


Jesus also said "love thy neighbor," but this is an expansion upon the Old Testament commandment, where it clearly does not mean "accept immorality." In fact the Scripture says don't let your neighbor bring you into sin, and also that you may have to warn your neighbor of his error.

Love thy neighbor doesn't mean "pretensiously announce that your neighbor doesn't understand faith."

I'm pretty sure the "Judge not lest ye be judged" stuff was pretty solid. My soul is mine, not yours to pick apart.

Besides, this is the Internet. If there's a single phrase for preaching Jesus to non-Christians online, it is "throwing pearls before swine."

It is possible there was _no_ contact, too....but the works of Jewish society in creating a superior form of human organization still stands...all the more impressively, if it is purely human artifice.

With all the horror imposed by communist states, you would think the idea of the Marxist-Leninist class war would finally be dead.

Christians of good faith must stand up to Marxism. This is one area where Judaism (government-imposed "mandatory" altruism) and Christianity (altruism out of duty to God and individual moral conscience) differ. However, I know you are only trying to what you think is best for humanity.

IBesides, this is the Internet. If there's a single phrase for preaching Jesus to non-Christians online, it is "throwing pearls before swine."

It's true. I do realize that most computer geeks feel they have disproven God, but most computer geeks don't shower daily, so I'm not sure I should even bother.

All I will say, is that to all the computer geeks: Don't think you are above faith. In fact, I urge you to look at it a second time.

With all the horror imposed by communist states, you would think the idea of the Marxist-Leninist class war would finally be dead.

Dialectical Imperialism is wrong because its followers have done bad things?

SpanishInquisitionsayswhat?

We did ... nobody listened.


Hey look ... it happened again!

And now back to the question: what would happen if the Jews admitted that the theological basis of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is unsubstantial.Nothing. Nothing would happen.

Even though I believe all religion causes problems for society, much like John Lennon did in his song Imagine, it's important to draw a distinction between Christianity and Islam.

Christianity, which many regard as the one true Faith, is entirely consistent with the Hebrew Scripture, and study of the Old Testament Scripture is an integral part of the holy Faith.

Islam, on the other hand, doesn't encourage study of the Old (or New) Testament, and instead replaces it Mohammed's Meccan and Medinian teachings (the Qur'an), many of which, especially in the Medinian period, describe a god completely different from the God revealed in the Old Testament, and, more completely, in the New Testament.

The people who keep lumping in Islam with Christianity (and Judaism) are just trying to attack Christianity. Maybe you should study the faith of your ancestors, sometimes people of the past weren't as stupid as you might think.

This being said, I oppose all religion because it hurts Gaia and the world. We would have so much progress without religion, and, more importantly, my parents might stop telling me not to have sex and drugs all the time.


Just as the New Testament picks up from the Old, the Quoran picks up from the New Testament. It splits off when Hagar, who had born Abraham's firstborn Ishmael, was driven off into the desert. The Quoran picks up what happened to Ishmael and his descendents, most notably Muhammad, whom the Quoran identifies as a prophet.

Does this mean that Christians follow the Quoran? No. But to deny the relationship is willful ignorance.

;) And my good friend, who is a Lutheran Pastor, has spoken of this from the pulpit. I hardly think he is trying to destroy Christianity.

Just as the New Testament picks up from the Old, the Quoran picks up from the New Testament. It splits off when Hagar, who had born Abraham's firstborn Ishmael, was driven off into the desert. The Quoran picks up what happened to Ishmael and his descendents, most notably Muhammad, whom the Quoran identifies as a prophet.

Does this mean that Christians follow the Quoran? No. But to deny the relationship is willful ignorance.

;) And my good friend, who is a Lutheran Pastor, has spoken of this from the pulpit. I hardly think he is trying to destroy Christianity.


I'm sure you mean that the Qor'an picks up from the Old, since Abraham's firstborn was WAY before the New. Abraham is REALLY pre-New-Testament.

With all the horror imposed by communist states, you would think the idea of the Marxist-Leninist class war would finally be dead.

Christians of good faith must stand up to Marxism. This is one area where Judaism (government-imposed "mandatory" altruism) and Christianity (altruism out of duty to God and individual moral conscience) differ. However, I know you are only trying to what you think is best for humanity.


...I thought you said you hated all religion because it hurt Gaia. Wouldn't that make you a pagan?

Hey look ... it happened again!

Nobody listens to us, Keruvalia. Let's leave them alone and go do it with spurs on.

...I thought you said you hated all religion because it hurt Gaia. Wouldn't that make you a pagan?

I hated cigarettes when I smoked, but I was still a smoker.

I'm sure you mean that the Qor'an picks up from the Old, since Abraham's firstborn was WAY before the New. Abraham is REALLY pre-New-Testament.

Quite right. My bad.

The sentiment is still the same, however. Recognizing the relationship between the three religions doesn't necessarily mean one follows all three -- but to state that accepting the common origin is trying to destroy Christianity is frankly wacky.

Then again, the person exhorting us all to be good, faithful Christians has stated they hate all religion...

...I thought you said you hated all religion because it hurt Gaia. who is so Gaia? :D :p

(serious now) what/who is Gaia?

who is so Gaia? :D :p

(serious now) what/who is Gaia?


Ask Conscience and Truth. According to them, religion hurts her.

Ask Conscience and Truth. According to them, religion hurts her.ok. (them:confused: )

C&T.. who is Gaia? (thanks to Kat.. I know now its female)

Quite right. My bad.

The sentiment is still the same, however. Recognizing the relationship between the three religions doesn't necessarily mean one follows all three -- but to state that accepting the common origin is trying to destroy Christianity is frankly wacky.

Then again, the person exhorting us all to be good, faithful Christians has stated they hate all religion...

Agreed on all counts.

Eh, isn't Gaia just Greek for Earth? It's used in New-Age-speak to mean the earth as a Mothery creature that's all-powerfully-awesome, loves hemp, and hates pollution. (You can see how much stock I put in that idea)

Agreed on all counts.

Eh, isn't Gaia just Greek for Earth? It's used in New-Age-speak to mean the earth as a Mothery creature that's all-powerfully-awesome, loves hemp, and hates pollution. (You can see how much stock I put in that idea)hey.. I love hemp :D and hate pollution too.

hey.. I love hemp and hate polution too :D

Ah, but are you a New-Age concept of God as represented by a giant ball of rock and dirt?

Ah, but are you a New-Age concept of God as represented by a giant ball of rock and dirt?well.. depends.. How much hemp do I get..

*wow.. a vagina-biter thread.. >> Elvis has left the Building (thread) *:D

ok. (them:confused: )

C&T.. who is Gaia? (thanks to Kat.. I know now its female)

Watch the "Final Fantasy" and "Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children" movies.

All will become clear.

Well - probably not, actually.

Wow, the OP disappeared like 2 pages ago.

Nobody listens to us, Keruvalia. Let's leave them alone and go do it with spurs on.

Woo! Works for me :D

With all the horror imposed by communist states, you would think the idea of the Marxist-Leninist class war would finally be dead.

Christians of good faith must stand up to Marxism. This is one area where Judaism (government-imposed "mandatory" altruism) and Christianity (altruism out of duty to God and individual moral conscience) differ. However, I know you are only trying to what you think is best for humanity.

First, you equate marxism-lenninism with Jewish society and it's traditions. wow. that's a stunningly inaccurate analogy.

Secondly, so you're back to being religious this week, eh ? The epitome of consistency it is.

Thirdly, I explained in great detail that my nation state handle _does not_ reflect my sociopolitical beliefs.

To answer the OP (do any of you even remember what it was?) If "the Jews" said that they had made up the Torah, thereby invalidating all three Abrahamic religions, Fundamentalist Chistians and Fundamentalist Islamists would form a temporary alliance to slaughter every Jew they could get their hands on. They'd then claim that God told them to.

Liasia']:rolleyes: So why are ciggarettes and alcohol legal? Besides, I suspect cannabis is a crapload easier to grow than most crops.


Alcohol has been banned in the past, most likely both have taken legal hits because certain prudish factions exert(ed) enough pressure to make it so.

Cannabis is just another crop, it grows well, to be sure, but so do other crops, I'm not sure why that matters at all.

We are not talking about the history of the Abrahamic faiths, we are talking about the Abrahamic faiths themselves. There is in fact no knowledge about those, it's all just accepted beliefs.
Now if there was a faction within Judaism that started to admit that their ideological ancestors added to the historical facts their own wishful theology, and if this faction would become too strong to ignore and evidence was on their side (which would of course mean that they cease to be Jews), what would happen?

PS: I know nothing of Dan Brown's tales

Precisely, you point out the reason your question is nonsense.
It's all just accepted beliefs.
Therefore, it does not matter how many skeptics you gather, they would have no ability to make a declaration regarding what their ancestors did or did not add and it could not possibly have anything like "evidence"

Whenever a particular branch of religion goes "progressive," they tend to experience a major fall off in committed believers. If you compare Reform to Orthodox, I bet you will find a much stronger belief in God within the ranks of the Orthodox.

Reform let's an individual believe whatever he wants to believe, so your point about to a certain extent isn't surprising. Once we enterain the idea that humans can substitute their will in place of God's will, what's the point of taking seriously anything that God demands of us?
It is not as much as a stronger belief in God as a stricter interpretation of
Judaism's laws and traditions.
People individually are able to define their own relationship with God in accordance to what they personally believe. Every person makes a compromise between their own will and those of God or gods(which manifest themselves in morals). Even atheists do not completely substitute their will with those of God, as their morals, although they consider them to be secular, originated in the development of religion.

... ever admitted that the Bible is indeed fabricated? The whole thing around Judaism, Christianity and Islam would just fall apart. What would folks turn to then? To the beliefs that existed before or other new beliefs? Or would folks stop believing and start learning and thus knowing?

Ok there are many Jewish schools of thought on the bible just like there are splits between Christianity. Well maybe not as many but the idea is the same. There are some Jews that undoubtedly believe the books of the Old Testament of the Bible to be a pretty literal document. Many though understand that these texts are a hodgepodge of lessons of our wisdom, history, and law.

These texts are important to Jews. Perhaps equally important are the debates that use the Old Testament as their springboard. These debates take an ounce or two of scripture and add a pound or two of logic, positions from other debates between famous rabbis and come up with new conclusions. The Midrash is a huge series of volumes sort of the size of an Encyclopedia. Of even greater importance are the conclusion of the individual men and increasingly women who use ethical reasoning to decide how to anchor their lives in holiness by acting the Mitzvot (commandments) in their lives.

There are pro-life and pro-abortion Jews and their are Jews who walk on grass on Saturday mornings and those who do not. The debates in the Jewish community actually cover everything from abortion to whether it is ok to walk on grass lawns on Shabbat. It can be pretty complicated but is all part of the joy of studying the Torah.

Has anyone ever considered that East of Eden is Nod is a puppet account for a regular poster? Any ideas?