NationStates Jolt Archive

The Italians are famous for there family first culture. If you go there you see alot of affection within the family and genereally there not scared to show there emotions.

I'm from Scotland and about 6 years ago my dad and his side of my family (complicated) moved over to Florence and I observed alot of the family culture as i visited frequently. At first I thought it was nice. Gradually I got more cynical. First of all there are barely any play parks for my little brother to play in, in fact there are hardly any toy shops or anything, theres plenty of culture, amazing architecture but what about the simple things to keep the kids amused. Then I see people dragging there kids in to resturants at really stupidly late times when they clearly need to go to sleep and are suffering while adults are talking and talking while smoking and whatever. Then there was there next door neighbour had 3 kids from 2 wifes. He then died and left and left the younger kid with his mother while the two older "half" brothers ran the family business and left the little brother with no dad for himself with no male role models, in fact they barely helped them out financially, all there money and effort went in to maintaining the family business and name. It wasn't so much the fact this happened that was a shock but the fact that so many people weren't phased by it.

This leads me to think that Italian culture isn't so much about family but about family name and showing off your family. In Scotland we aren't known for our affection within the family or expressing our emotions healthily but I like to think we put our family welfare before any personal ambitions or princaples. I'm not saying we're perfetct as I know some people who are right b*st*rds, parents as well but they always seemed to use there b*st*rdness to aid there kids and put them first.

What do you think?

Personally I think it's about 'Family Comes First'... and they but a lot of emphasis on the Family Name - it's probably a mix of both really.


and YAY.. first poster! :)

Isn't Italy's birthrate the lowest in Europe.. even lower than Russia? I think you have to have a family before you show it off.. :p

I think most of Europe would rather spend their money on parties and blow (or whatever) than on kids, even with the tax credits.. I mean, you gotta unwind after that stressful 30-hour workweek. :)

Hmm I have a feeling this might turn into a politics like evry other non political thread I start. Please don't.

Isn't Italy's birthrate the lowest in Europe.. even lower than Russia? I think you have to have a family before you show it off.. :p

Isn't it Germany?

more italian men stay at home with their parents for longer than men in most (i would say all but can't remember exactly) other european nations.

in the uk (i guess this applies to scotland) there still seems to be this attitude, amongst many people, of 'come 18 and you're out the door', which i have always thought is horrible. is the typical british family so emotionally distanced as to only consider practical issues like that? or do people still think 'tough love' is the only way to go?

i like the way the italians (and many more, primarily catholic, continental nations), typically handle things on family matters. sure in italy there may be too much pride (which may lead to one-upmanship), but supporting the family and helping one-another out when in need makes so much more sense than what i see and hear around me :(



in short: i think their hearts are in the right place :)

Isn't it Germany?

Italy is 1.28 to Germany's 1.39 according to the CIA website. Then again, it has Japan at 1.4, which is a bit outdated (1.2 I think now).. so I dunno.

Italy is 1.28 to Germany's 1.39 according to the CIA website. Then again, it has Japan at 1.4, which is a bit outdated (1.2 I think now).. so I dunno.

Actually, Latvia has the lowest birthrate in Europe. They are at about 1.15

My point is thjat the Italians dont always help and support each other when it comes down to it. Like with the kid. Some families have an out the door by 18 policy (usually more of an empty threat to get you into gear) but we dont throw them into the street we'd make sure they were ok and anything they needed doing we'd help them and go to great lengths to do so. I'm from a relitvely emotionally constrained family where my mum left at 17 but shen she got divorced and i was about 4 her her sister let her stay in her room and gave up quite alot of personal space (valuable when your a teenager) and had two extra people staying in a very small house just till we got sorted out. Italian men live with there family longer. Is that necceseraly a good thing. Is it because the mothers care so much for the welfare of the kids that they keep them at home or is it because the mother "just can't bare to be without her little boy and see them growing up" that it makes them sad. Think about it, who is it really helping. When I say keep them at home i dont mean lock them up but by emotional blackmail which i suspect Italian women are very good at. I'd rather be from a family who will do anything for each other but maybe not go around kissing, saying "i love you" all the time than be from a lovey dovey family who in alot of cases use you for there emotional needs and what if you disobey and leave home at 17, do they disown you? (far more likely). Basically my point is speak with action not words and loyalty and family pride will come naturally.

I think you've find a not very tipycal case in Italy, I guess most of the people wouldn't do that. And about the play parks and so, family first is a private way of life, is about the feelings of people and so, not about the politics.
And on the toys matter, I've been grown with few toys and many friends, playing games that needed no toys but imagination. Playing in the streets, with a ball, or cristal little balls (I don't know the name in english). But that is almost lost in most cities in my country, due to the enormous amount of toys, playstations and the insecurity.

My point is thjat the Italians dont always help and support each other when it comes down to it. Like with the kid. Some families have an out the door by 18 policy (usually more of an empty threat to get you into gear) but we dont throw them into the street we'd make sure they were ok and anything they needed doing we'd help them and go to great lengths to do so. I'm from a relitvely emotionally constrained family where my mum left at 17 but shen she got divorced and i was about 4 her her sister let her stay in her room and gave up quite alot of personal space (valuable when your a teenager) and had two extra people staying in a very small house just till we got sorted out. Italian men live with there family longer. Is that necceseraly a good thing. Is it because the mothers care so much for the welfare of the kids that they keep them at home or is it because the mother "just can't bare to be without her little boy and see them growing up" that it makes them sad. Think about it, who is it really helping. When I say keep them at home i dont mean lock them up but by emotional blackmail which i suspect Italian women are very good at. I'd rather be from a family who will do anything for each other but maybe not go around kissing, saying "i love you" all the time than be from a lovey dovey family who in alot of cases use you for there emotional needs and what if you disobey and leave home at 17, do they disown you? (far more likely). Basically my point is speak with action not words and loyalty and family pride will come naturally.


I think the people staying later at home is not just a feelings question, but more related with economics, the dificulty of finding a good job and the need of security and so. Of course, that's possible just for the important place family has in our mediterranean societies (I'm spanish, quite close to italian way of living). And I think is not a very good thing for people staying so growed up at parents house, they are so comfortable that it kills a bit initiative and so.

I just think everything is geared around adults. Its really hard to find high chairs in resturants. I agree with you on the toys matter that theres too many nowadays. The way I see Italians walking around with there kids reminds me of people with pets. Just there as a show, always cuddling and stuff but showing emotions isn't the most important thing with kids. They should be able to go out and play with other kids while the adults are all doing htere chatting gossiping, whatever. My little brother finds it very hard to do that whereas in scoltand it was a way of life at that age. The only thing I saw which goes against my theory is "la festa" which maybe you know about, a left wing organised thing where families go and eat cheap but nice food and the kids play on the castle while the adults get drunk. The whole thing reminded me of home. But thats only 3 weeks a year. Spending time with your family and caring for your family are too different things closely related and often mistaken but still different.

or cristal little balls (I don't know the name in english)..

Marbles

http://www.exposingmyself.net/images/marbles.JPG

I think the people staying later at home is not just a feelings question, but more related with economics, the dificulty of finding a good job and the need of security and so.


Yes, money and job are the causes most times ...

Then I see people dragging there kids in to resturants at really stupidly late times when they clearly need to go to sleep and are suffering while adults are talking and talking while smoking and whatever. Then there was there next door neighbour had 3 kids from 2 wifes. He then died and left and left the younger kid with his mother while the two older "half" brothers ran the family business and left the little brother with no dad for himself with no male role models, in fact they barely helped them out financially, all there money and effort went in to maintaining the family business and name. It wasn't so much the fact this happened that was a shock but the fact that so many people weren't phased by it.

This leads me to think that Italian culture isn't so much about family but about family name and showing off your family. In Scotland we aren't known for our affection within the family or expressing our emotions healthily but I like to think we put our family welfare before any personal ambitions or princaples. I'm not saying we're perfetct as I know some people who are right b*st*rds, parents as well but they always seemed to use there b*st*rdness to aid there kids and put them first.

What do you think?

Different culture.

There is the habit of the siesta, where everything stops in the middle of the day and people take a nap. This is why dinner is at 8 in the evening.

You're also pointing at a poor example of parenthood and generalising that many or all Italians are like him.

I AM Italian-American, and I can assure you it is NOT about showing off: if your family needs you, you do for them. Plain and simple. You may not have spoken to the person for a number of years -- you might even have had a dispute that keeps you apart. But when the chips are down, the family comes together to do whatever needs doing in order to set things right.

Fair enough I'll take your word there. Although Italian american isn't Italian so you havent totally swayed me. Also about the kid, my point wasnt so much that it happened but more the way it seemed like the norm. The family didn't even seem to have a problem with it even though it clearly was affecting them. Another thing is how you mention disputes or not talking to family for years. No offence but the Italians being a more emotional, melodramatic culture (than the scots anyway), it seems more likely that this would happen. I just don't think people should let there own emotions get in the way of family.. Easier said than done and maybe this leads to emotional constraint which is seen as a really bad thing nowadays but is it really?

Also I appreciate siesta and why it leads to later dinner, but i see kids being dragged in at 11.00. I'm not trying to generalise so much but I'm saying that cultural ways can lead to not so nice things. I wouldnt say Italians are like that racially.

Also I appreciate siesta and why it leads to later dinner, but i see kids being dragged in at 11.00. I'm not trying to generalise so much but I'm saying that cultural ways can lead to not so nice things. I wouldnt say Italians are like that racially.

at 11.00??? :confused:

Fair enough I'll take your word there. Although Italian american isn't Italian so you havent totally swayed me. Also about the kid, my point wasnt so much that it happened but more the way it seemed like the norm. The family didn't even seem to have a problem with it even though it clearly was affecting them. Another thing is how you mention disputes or not talking to family for years. No offence but the Italians being a more emotional, melodramatic culture (than the scots anyway), it seems more likely that this would happen. I just don't think people should let there own emotions get in the way of family.. Easier said than done and maybe this leads to emotional constraint which is seen as a really bad thing nowadays but is it really?

No?
So basically, you're saying that nothing of family culture has been passed down since my family arrived in the US?

Remember also that you were a stranger in a strange land, and that you yourself recognize there are differences in the way folks from Scotland react and folks from Italy. Do I believe that because of the famed "stiff upper lip" that citizens of the UK don't care about their families simply because they don't show a large amount of emotion to strangers? No.

Really, what you seem to be upset about is that people in their own country did not cater to what your notion of propriety is. Considering this is a charge often levelled at Americans about thinking everyone should speak English and everything should be exactly as it is at home, you'll forgive me for being much amused.

People moan about the Brittish being stiff upper lipped and emotionally constrained all the time. I'm not saying everyone should live by my standards but what i don't understand is the whole idea that Italians regard family more important than other cultures and that just because they talk about them more, show more emotions towards them proves this and it just isn't true. I'm sure things have been passed down thorughout generations but your way of life will still be alo different to The Italians in Italys way of life. I think my point is that the Scots who aren't renowned for there family first attitude do actually have much more of that attitude than the Italians. I'm sure Italians care for there family becuase there humans but theres nothing special about them compared to other nations.

yes I've seen kids past 11.00pm. Maybe not getting dragged in at that time coz it'd be hard to get served but definetly there past that time.

People moan about the Brittish being stiff upper lipped and emotionally constrained all the time. I'm not saying everyone should live by my standards but what i don't understand is the whole idea that Italians regard family more important than other cultures and that just because they talk about them more, show more emotions towards them proves this and it just isn't true. I'm sure things have been passed down thorughout generations but your way of life will still be alo different to The Italians in Italys way of life. I think my point is that the Scots who aren't renowned for there family first attitude do actually have much more of that attitude than the Italians. I'm sure Italians care for there family becuase there humans but theres nothing special about them compared to other nations.

What I am saying is that I do believe different cultures show it in different ways. I was not "moaning" about the British stiff upper lip -- I specifically said I did not believe that publicly showing emotional restraint meant that Brits cared less for their family. You seem to be saying that based largely on one family you observed, whom I think we can all agree is not an ideal one, Italians at large are not what you would consider properly family oriented.

Are you saying, then, that because your family moved to Italy that they no longer have any concept of Scots culture? That would seem to be disputed by your notion of what "proper" family culture is. I therefore fail to see how family values, then, passed down from my grandfather to my father and my father to me, would have changed that much, espcially given that the neighborhood I grew up in was one where Italians fresh over from Italy tend to congregate. Why? Because your neighbors speak the same language, have the same culture and values, and can get their hands on the same imported foods back from 'the home country'.

I am Italian american , I can vouch for the closeness and the value of familgia..I have family in Canada and in Naples and in Calabria. I am in touch with them all and when they get a visit we are treated like long lost treasures . I must have a hundred cousins I have not met . Yet once I am introduced as familgia I am given the same protection and privilage as anyone else in the family .

yes I've seen kids past 11.00pm. Maybe not getting dragged in at that time coz it'd be hard to get served but definetly there past that time.


Perhaps during vacation days, but when the kids have to go to school, they go to sleep at 10/10.30 pm...

However, in Italy we have lunch at 12,45/13 and dinner at 19,30/20... This is normal, I think...

Italy is 1.28 to Germany's 1.39 according to the CIA website. Then again, it has Japan at 1.4, which is a bit outdated (1.2 I think now).. so I dunno.

Yeah, the CIA world factbook also has China's sex ratio in all agegroups within a few percent of other countries'. That isn't what I'm hearing. Perhaps the CIA aren't a reliable source ... of anything really ;)

Palermo and Messina in Italy -- and Long Island, Brooklyn, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida, and Georgia on this side of the Atlantic. ;)

yes I've seen kids past 11.00pm. Maybe not getting dragged in at that time coz it'd be hard to get served but definetly there past that time.
I see that constantly in Oklahoma from non-Italian families........last night I saw a toddler out at 1am, the parents were mad because he was "cranky" I said "what the hell do you expect?! it's a child, not a toy, go home and let him sleep!"

:rolleyes:

I see that constantly in Oklahoma from non-Italian families........last night I saw a toddler out at 1am, the parents were mad because he was "cranky" I said "what the hell do you expect?! it's a child, not a toy, go home and let him sleep!"

:rolleyes:

;)

So you DO pass judgment on perfect strangers 'choices' from time to time. (I agree though)

-----

On topic: I read The Thief Lord recently so I know ALL about the abuse and neglect of orphans and children in Florence and I say...

(the above statemnet was satire, I am actually simply giving an example as an endorsement of what Katganistan is saying, you can't judge an entire community based on one observation) :)

They moved over 6 years ago coz my dad had an 8 year contract. American Italians moved over at the begining of last century. Do you not think living in America for 3 or 4 generations might alter some of your culture and so on. Are all of your friends and peers and there familys Italian? Do you have siestas often? Actually these aren't retorical questions maybe I'm wrong I don't know how the Italian american way of life is and how extreme it is.

I feel I've been misunderstood. Italians are famous for there family values. This implies that they put there fmily first more than other cultures do. Before I experienced Italy I thought they might have been much more family orientated than other cultures. I went there and found it there not really although they are better at showing it. I'm not trying to base all Italians on that 1 family although I am saying the whole family attitude Italians have can be damaging and not necesseraly be good for the family welfare.

Also Scottish and English I suppose, people dont purposely go around not showing affection. Its just not in our nature to do because of our upbringing and so on. I don't think its always a good thing, I just think we look after each other alot better than people think and the Italians dont look after each other better than we do despite there reputation.

Infact this is only a reputation, we have family values but as each other! We love our family and if anyone need to be helped, we help him.. as any other person does! I think that it is normal!

American Italians moved over at the begining of last century.
All of them? Really? or did you miss where I specifically said that new immigrants tend to congregate in the neighborhood I grew up in because the cultural values, language, music and foods are just like home?

I am saying the whole family attitude Italians have can be damaging and not necesseraly be good for the family welfare. This is your opinion on the matter, it's true, but ironically it's based on what you consider to be proper family values given what your cultural background is.

I would not expect you to live like an American. Why do you expect the Italians to live like Scots? What evidence do you have that Italian family values are, as you put it, damaging, other than your own preconceived notions arrived at by comparison against your own culture?

Also Scottish and English I suppose, people dont purposely go around not showing affection. Its just not in our nature to do because of our upbringing and so on. I don't think its always a good thing, I just think we look after each other alot better than people think and the Italians dont look after each other better than we do despite there reputation.

Why must it be a contest as to who is better, and why do you keep missing the point that whether or not the Scottish and English are openly affectionate in public is not being viewed as an indictment of your culture but merely a difference in the way affection is expressed?

It boils down to individual families, rather than a whole rae or culture.

It boils down to individual families, rather than a whole rae or culture.

*hug*

Maybe your right. Hopefully you can see where my frustrations are coming from. I hear all the time about how Scots never show emotions which insinuates that we're not caring people. I also hear about Italainas being affectionate, caring, family prioritising people. I dont think either of us are perfect with families but the Italians get alot of credit for being perfect in that way. It annoys me when i see examples like that. One thing you can't deny is that Italy as a country isn't set out all that well for kids, with the crazy driving, lack of play parks, high chairs and so on.

Yes it comes down to individual familes, I knew it was only a matter of time before somebody said that. I was talking about culture differences though and general common values do differ amongst different cultures. In fact thats the beauty of culture- variety. If somethings different to your way of life I think you have a perfect right to argue it.

One thing you can't deny is that Italy as a country isn't set out all that well for kids, with the crazy driving, lack of play parks, high chairs and so on.

It's not the true! I don't know where you have learned these things but you talk about Italy as the Hell for the kids!

I've been there loads of times. Its a great place but not for kids compared to Britain. My little brother hates it and he's quite a patient wee guy. Although it is good for kids that like football. There's plenty of oppertunities there for that.

;)

So you DO pass judgment on perfect strangers 'choices' from time to time. (I agree though)

they said "I don't know what to do with him, he usually is so happy"

I replied.

I've been there loads of times. Its a great place but not for kids compared to Britain. My little brother hates it and he's quite a patient wee guy. Although it is good for kids that like football. There's plenty of oppertunities there for that.


I don't know the opportunities that kids have in Britain, but I was kid and I had my safe place where I could play. Perhaps a tourist don't find great opportunities for kids, but if you live here, you find them! There are parks, after-school, a lot of sports to play, and many towns are small and perfect for kids! Perhaps Milano, Roma, Napoli are too big and chaotic for children, but the city, where I live, is not like those

People moan about the Brittish being stiff upper lipped and emotionally constrained all the time. I'm not saying everyone should live by my standards but what i don't understand is the whole idea that Italians regard family more important than other cultures and that just because they talk about them more, show more emotions towards them proves this and it just isn't true. I'm sure things have been passed down thorughout generations but your way of life will still be alo different to The Italians in Italys way of life. I think my point is that the Scots who aren't renowned for there family first attitude do actually have much more of that attitude than the Italians. I'm sure Italians care for there family becuase there humans but theres nothing special about them compared to other nations.
I think you've simply fallen into the misunderstanding trap.

Yes, italians are famous for having a close, vibrant and extroverted family culture.
Scots and brits are famous for having a more distant, colder and introverted family culture.

This is true.

However, despite what people think (and some say), this is not an idication of which family culture is the better. Nor does it indicate that the people of this or that family culture loves their kids more as an effect of it.

All it says is that the family cultures are different.
If anyone says differently, they are putting their on interpretations/preceptions into it.