NationStates Jolt Archive

Is it selfish? I don't think so but it came up in conversation the other day and I'd like to hear/read what you think about it.

I think so, because when a person commits suicide they're hurting alot of people who loves and cares about him/her.

On the other hand it is even more selfish for the loved ones to wish the suicidal person to continue existing with that much unhappiness despair and pain in order to avoid grief.

On the other hand it is even more selfish for the loved ones to wish the suicidal person to continue existing with that much unhappiness despair and pain in order to avoid grief.

Yea, but there are people who actually have OK lives, and don't really warrent taking their own lives.

I don't think it's selfish because those that wish death upon themselves do so because they cannot see the silver lining on the dark cloud of life. They have become convinced that life is not worth living by one means or another. There is no way to ease that kind of pain.

3.

Common more people. More posts. More dots. Common more dots.

The life being taken belongs to the suicidal person and no one else. They have the right to decide the terms of their own death. All the assholes who made their life so horrible can just go fuck themselves.

To Dosuun yes there is. Through help, you can eventually ease all wounds of that type.


Suicide is the cowards way out. Anyone who commits suicide, is in general, a coward, who is afraid to face their problems.

Different situations though, that can change. Such as in the case of some one suffering from an incurable disease. Then it is honorable to do this, because to ease that kind of pain requires death, sadly. But someone who kills themselves because they lost a girlfriend, or life is treating them hard, that is cowardice. They are weak individuals who take the easy way out. We all have problems, a real man is made by the way he deals with those issues. It isn't fair to the person's family either. They love him or her, care about them, you shouldn't cause people that kind of grief.

Death has never bothered me much. If someone I knew commited suicide, I would not be messed up. I would miss the person, but it would not affect me a whole lot.

I think it's circumstancial.

A girl I knew had a good boyfriend, family and network of friends.
She had a bright future ahead of her and was always cheerful. Noone knew why she did it, but there were times when I got angry at her, for her selfishness in taking her own life.

I think it's probably part of the process of recovery, getting angry at the person in question.

The life being taken belongs to the suicidal person and no one else. They have the right to decide the terms of their own death. All the assholes who made their life so horrible can just go fuck themselves.



OR, they can make a change in their life. ALL problems have a solution. You can always end whatever is giving you so much grief. If it is a group of people giving you grief, go else where.

You can always put an end to it.

To Dosuun yes there is. Through help, you can eventually ease all wounds of that type.


Suicide is the cowards way out. Anyone who commits suicide, is in general, a coward, who is afraid to face their problems.

Different situations though, that can change. Such as in the case of some one suffering from an incurable disease. Then it is honorable to do this, because to ease that kind of pain requires death, sadly. But someone who kills themselves because they lost a girlfriend, or life is treating them hard, that is cowardice. They are weak individuals who take the easy way out. We all have problems, a real man is made by the way he deals with those issues. It isn't fair to the person's family either. They love him or her, care about them, you shouldn't cause people that kind of grief.

You're an asshole.

My stepfather was physically and verbally abusive to me. He lied to me, he stole from me, he threatened to kill me on multiple occasions. So, at the age of 14, I attempted suicide. It was the HARDEST DECISION OF MY LIFE. And until you have been in a situation like that, until you have known the incomprehensible amount of suffering that a person must endure before becoming suicidal, you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to tell people what is "cowardice" and what isn't. For you to pass judgement on a group of people who you don't even know, and who suffer far more than you ever will, makes you the most arrogant shithead in the whole fucking universe.

So shut the fuck up until you know what the fuck you're talking about.

OR, they can make a change in their life. ALL problems have a solution. You can always end whatever is giving you so much grief.

No, actually, you CAN'T always do that.

Yes, it's selfish. No, that's not a bad thing. If I want to kill myself (I don't, but I have considered it briefly in the past) it's none of anyone else's business. It'll upset lots of people, but frankly, once the person is dead, they're not gonna know, are they?

EDIT: Almost everything humans do is motivated by selfish desires. Even unselfish acts like charity are generally designed to make oneself feel "better", or to gain reward in a fictional afterlife. This is no different. A selfish act is morally neutral.

You're an asshole.

My stepfather was physically and verbally abusive to me. He lied to me, he stole from me, he threatened to kill me on multiple occasions. So, at the age of 14, I attempted suicide. It was the HARDEST DECISION OF MY LIFE. And until you have been in a situation like that, until you have known the incomprehensible amount of suffering that a person must endure before becoming suicidal, you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to tell people what is "cowardice" and what isn't. For you to pass judgement on a group of people who you don't even know, and who suffer far more than you ever will, makes you the most arrogant shithead in the whole fucking universe.

So shut the fuck up until you know what the fuck you're talking about.

QFT

Selfish?

Maybe... but who really cares? If one believes (as I do) that a person has the right to choose what to do with her/his body and life, then he/she is allowed to be "selfish" and commit suicide.

Oh what a nerve this has hit.

I can totally understand why people think it's selfish. Speaking from personal expeirience, the family members who get left behind to pick up the peices can often feel angry at them for leaving, and take a 'that's so selfish, what about us?, how could they do this to us' point of view. They often feel guilty that they couldnt help, or didn't spot it sooner, and the anger takes over and turns into blame.

It's often perceived as a cowards way out and that they haven't tried hard enough to over come their issues. But who are we to make those assumptions?

I dont presently understand the desire to take ones own life, and I would like to think that if I ever felt that low, I'd have the balls to ask for help, but many people have noone to turn to, they dont have a supportive network and they dont know where to start to look for it.

It's hard to say one way or another if it's selfish or not because everyone has different reasons for their action, and I would think that only through their reasons for thier actions can you understand the selfishness, if any, that motivated them, and sometimes we dont get to know why.

To Dosuun yes there is. Through help, you can eventually ease all wounds of that type.


Suicide is the cowards way out. Anyone who commits suicide, is in general, a coward, who is afraid to face their problems.

Different situations though, that can change. Such as in the case of some one suffering from an incurable disease. Then it is honorable to do this, because to ease that kind of pain requires death, sadly. But someone who kills themselves because they lost a girlfriend, or life is treating them hard, that is cowardice. They are weak individuals who take the easy way out. We all have problems, a real man is made by the way he deals with those issues. It isn't fair to the person's family either. They love him or her, care about them, you shouldn't cause people that kind of grief.

1. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a support network, good friends or even family, sometimes the very people that are supposed to help you cope in life contribute to one's suicidal tendencies.

2. To pass such judgement is irrational at best. It is the hardest thing that anyone can do, take ones life. It may in fact be cowardice to keep living just to appease a bunch of people that pretend to care about you when in fact they don't. Every human living on this messed up planet has the right to end their life, no matter what the law or whatever says.

3. What makes you say that a terminally ill patient suffering from an incurable disease is less of a coward to be euphonised than one suffering lifelong depression?

Last portion of my rant.

Feeling weakness, constant failure, abandonment, and a generally shitty fucked up life may also require death to cure the pain rather than countless futile ultimately fruitless attempts at "Coping" with problems.

I think so, because when a person commits suicide they're hurting alot of people who loves and cares about him/her.
People should stop caring.

You're an asshole.

My stepfather was physically and verbally abusive to me. He lied to me, he stole from me, he threatened to kill me on multiple occasions. So, at the age of 14, I attempted suicide. It was the HARDEST DECISION OF MY LIFE. And until you have been in a situation like that, until you have known the incomprehensible amount of suffering that a person must endure before becoming suicidal, you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to tell people what is "cowardice" and what isn't. For you to pass judgement on a group of people who you don't even know, and who suffer far more than you ever will, makes you the most arrogant shithead in the whole fucking universe.

So shut the fuck up until you know what the fuck you're talking about.
You mean like you just did?

Until a Mod shows up, I'll warn you, you're flaming. Control yourself, please.

Yea, but there are people who actually have OK lives, and don't really warrent taking their own lives.

If they have "OK lives," then they're not going to take their own, are they?

Is it selfish? I don't think so but it came up in conversation the other day and I'd like to hear/read what you think about it.


Not necessarily. You can imagine some character who is not only a burden to him/herself, but also to the rest of society. Thus, this person's self inflicted departure would be best for all.

Not necessarily. You can imagine some character who is not only a burden to him/herself, but also to the rest of society. Thus, this person's self inflicted departure would be best for all.

Generally, not; they just think it would be. In other circumstances, one of the reasons (not a reason for doing, but just an added perk) would be to screw over all the people who ruined their lives so badly and to show them what the aforementioned people probably never understood all along- hoe badly they were torturing that person (Essentially, a "see what you did to me" sort of thing.). While that partiular aspect is somewhat selfish (more vengeful than anything, really), I have never heard of someone committing suicide out of spite.

Is it selfish? I don't think so but it came up in conversation the other day and I'd like to hear/read what you think about it.
I don't consider it to be at its heart due to a lack of feeling for others. In many cases, if someone is ready to kill themselves, they feel that they wouldn't be missed anyway.

Basically, I don't see a point in labeling it as selfish. The last thing a suicidal person needs is more guilt, and besides that, suicide is not correlated strongly with antisocial or selfish personalities. One of the nicest people I know attempted suicide a few years back, not because she didn't care about other people but because she felt her own life was too unbearable to go on. Fortunately, she changed her mind before it was too late and called 911.

first, there is a solution to every problem. Said solution is brute force.
Brute force soles all problems. If it doesn't solve yours, you just haven't applied enough brute force jet [/joke]

You shall not kill, not someone else and not even yourself. It is as easy as that. Your life doesn't belong to you, it belongs to God.

If they have "OK lives," then they're not going to take their own, are they?
You'd be surprised how many folks imagine the worst about some pretty inane "troubles". Then again, there are many who have Earth-shattering difficulties and turn out fine.

ANOTHER POINT: Stop using euthanasia as a justification for suicide. These are two different things. Unbearable physical pain and anguish or impending incapacity and severely diminished quality of life is not the same as not being willing to look into ways out of whatever parental hellhole you're in.

If suicide is not selfish, which I suppose is debatable, it is at the very least a supremely arrogant and ignorant thing to do. A life that might suck at 14 will never know how good it could have been at 22 because he thought he knew everything and just KNEW, over all else, that it wasn't ever going to improve.

Nobody's guaranteed an easy road. Or even a road.

Generally, not; they just think it would be. In other circumstances, one of the reasons (not a reason for doing, but just an added perk) would be to screw over all the people who ruined their lives so badly and to show them what the aforementioned people probably never understood all along- hoe badly they were torturing that person (Essentially, a "see what you did to me" sort of thing.). While that partiular aspect is somewhat selfish (more vengeful than anything, really), I have never heard of someone committing suicide out of spite.

I'm just saying that there are circumstances under which suicide can have an aspect to it which is unselfish.

You mean like you just did?

Until a Mod shows up, I'll warn you, you're flaming. Control yourself, please.

While the language was out of line, I must say that, as someone who has attempted suicide before, it was perfectly understandable. That person was right. No matter how much thinking you may do to try to understand the matter- even if you have close friends or relatives who have attempted suicide before- you will never truely understand the situation until you're living in it, and I wish to G-d that never happens to you- or anyone else for that matter. Though, as society will continue to torture those whose lives it does not understand, this terrible last resort will continue to be a part of it. Society and the people in it have to try, for tolerance heals wounds of injustice.

While the language was out of line, I must say that, as someone who has attempted suicide before, it was perfectly understandable. That person was right. No matter how much thinking you may do to try to understand the matter- even if you have close friends or relatives who have attempted suicide before- you will never truely understand the situation until you're living in it, and I wish to G-d that never happens to you- or anyone else for that matter. Though, as society will continue to torture those whose lives it does not understand, this terrible last resort will continue to be a part of it. Society and the people in it have to try, for tolerance heals wounds of injustice.
I understand your point, but it sounds faintly like your ascribing a persecution complex to the chronically suicidal.

I understand your point, but it sounds faintly like your ascribing a persecution complex to the chronically suicidal.
If that's your response, it certainly doesn't sound like you understand his point.

A life that might suck at 14 will never know how good it could have been at 22 because he thought he knew everything and just KNEW, over all else, that it wasn't ever going to improve.
It's not that life's not ever going to improve. That's not the point. It's that it's such utter hell right now that what might be in a year, or decade, all your future possibilities, every single one of your tomorrows, is a SMALL price to pay to not have to live through tonight. And even if you live through that sort of hell, it's going to color every bit of your life ever after. What kind of emotional and developmental damage are those years between 14 and 22 going to do, on top of the damage already done getting to 14 in the first place? Sometimes people, especially minors, are in situations where the only choices are live in hell or end it all. Call social services and if a case worker even comes out, odds are high they'll leave shortly after, leaving you there with an abuser who is now actively angry with you rather than just using you as an idle target out of boredom. Can't run away, the state just keeps bringing you back, and again, now you're not just a thing to idly abuse, you're someone who went against your abuser.
If your childhood was such that you didn't experience such a thing, then count yourself lucky. But don't judge someone who suffered something you didn't. Don't judge someone who made an impossible choice in an unimaginably horrible situation.

I understand your point, but it sounds faintly like your ascribing a persecution complex to the chronically suicidal.

That wasn't my intention. What I meant is that ignorance and the unintentional brutality that is synonimous with it is greatly detrimental.

Though, as society will continue to torture those whose lives it does not understand, this terrible last resort will continue to be a part of it. Society and the people in it have to try, for tolerance heals wounds of injustice.
Very poetic and smacking of persecution complex.

"Persecution complex", eh? Where'd you come up with that, anyway? The fact is that most suicidal people do feel isolated and/or alienated, and if you want to call that a persecution complex, then fine, do so. It's a terrible label, and quite inaccurate, really.

first, there is a solution to every problem. Said solution is brute force.
Brute force soles all problems. If it doesn't solve yours, you just haven't applied enough brute force jet [/joke]

You shall not kill, not someone else and not even yourself. It is as easy as that. Your life doesn't belong to you, it belongs to God.

We shall not kill in name of God...Why is it so that a lot of people start wars because of religion...?? ( this is just beside the point of suicide but I couldn't contain myself..Apology for this..)

A life that might suck at 14 will never know how good it could have been at 22 because he thought he knew everything and just KNEW, over all else, that it wasn't ever going to improve.

People don't attempt suicide, because they think (let alone KNOW) that life won't be good in the future, they do it, because they can't bare the time it's going to take to get there. Trust me, when you're in that much hell, five minutes of simply being awake is like spending an hour on a bed of nails. It's unbearable. Trust me.

If suicide is not selfish, which I suppose is debatable, it is at the very least a supremely arrogant and ignorant thing to do. A life that might suck at 14 will never know how good it could have been at 22 because he thought he knew everything and just KNEW, over all else, that it wasn't ever going to improve.

Nobody's guaranteed an easy road. Or even a road.

Touche, and one point for you brother..I've experienced some of the worse things in life and just kept on going, hoping for a better day. I got it..and nobody is guaranteed a road.

"Persecution complex", eh? Where'd you come up with that, anyway? The fact is that most suicidal people do feel isolated and/or alienated, and if you want to call that a persecution complex, then fine, do so. It's a terrible label, and quite inaccurate, really.

Very true.

It's not that life's not ever going to improve. That's not the point. It's that it's such utter hell right now that what might be in a year, or decade, all your future possibilities, every single one of your tomorrows, is a SMALL price to pay to not have to live through tonight. And even if you live through that sort of hell, it's going to color every bit of your life ever after. What kind of emotional and developmental damage are those years between 14 and 22 going to do, on top of the damage already done getting to 14 in the first place? Sometimes people, especially minors, are in situations where the only choices are live in hell or end it all. Call social services and if a case worker even comes out, odds are high they'll leave shortly after, leaving you there with an abuser who is now actively angry with you rather than just using you as an idle target out of boredom. Can't run away, the state just keeps bringing you back, and again, now you're not just a thing to idly abuse, you're someone who went against your abuser.
If your childhood was such that you didn't experience such a thing, then count yourself lucky. But don't judge someone who suffered something you didn't. Don't judge someone who made an impossible choice in an unimaginably horrible situation.
Surmounting the intolerable cruelty of such a situation would undoubtedly produce a person of extreme mettle. And I don't think I've judged anyone, I haven't said anyone was a whiner or couldn't take a bit of adolescent discomfort. It just seems to me that if you look for patterns of "societal persecution", you'll find them.

And if it's an impossible choice, how was it made? Surely the choice was eminently possible?

My childhood was fine. Young adulthood proved to be the third circle of hell, much of it my own making, and that drove me to consider ending it all on many occasions. When you see your own worst enemy in the mirror and realize that there's no escaping it, no running away, that can set the downward spiral into motion right quick. I knew, I just KNEW that everyone was disappointed with me anyway and would likely not miss me a whit. I was wrong, but at the time it was the cleanest logic I'd ever thought. I even thought about how to make it look like an accident to leave my insurance money behind for my mother. Who I then pictured at my funeral. I pictured friends and family gathering to say a few words about me and actually hearing them completely micharacterize damn near everything about me.

I then realized I still had a purpose and work to do, and shifted careers in order to continue doing what I love. At 14, you don't even know what you really love to do yet, and if you've been under the thumb and thumbscrews of shitty parents, you know even less because you've received no encouragement.

So I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

It's not that life's not ever going to improve. That's not the point. It's that it's such utter hell right now that what might be in a year, or decade, all your future possibilities, every single one of your tomorrows, is a SMALL price to pay to not have to live through tonight. And even if you live through that sort of hell, it's going to color every bit of your life ever after. What kind of emotional and developmental damage are those years between 14 and 22 going to do, on top of the damage already done getting to 14 in the first place? Sometimes people, especially minors, are in situations where the only choices are live in hell or end it all. Call social services and if a case worker even comes out, odds are high they'll leave shortly after, leaving you there with an abuser who is now actively angry with you rather than just using you as an idle target out of boredom. Can't run away, the state just keeps bringing you back, and again, now you're not just a thing to idly abuse, you're someone who went against your abuser.
If your childhood was such that you didn't experience such a thing, then count yourself lucky. But don't judge someone who suffered something you didn't. Don't judge someone who made an impossible choice in an unimaginably horrible situation.

I have experienced a hell for a childhood, but I don't believe in the fact that those 22 years say a quarter of your live can match up to the eventually 3 quarters of a life so magnificent that you wanted to get out and miss that.

Another thing for discussion and maybe a new thread would be, should the state, government or anybody else know for a fact that you are abused return you to your abuser??

Touche, and one point for you brother..I've experienced some of the worse things in life and just kept on going, hoping for a better day. I got it..and nobody is guaranteed a road.

You just strung my point across a banner and waved it through a crowd. You said yourslef, "I've experienced some of the worst things in life and kept on going, hoping for a better day.." You still had hope, which guarentees you didn't have depression. One of the side effects of depression is hopelessness. I would rather have my leg sawed off with no anesthetic than have depression again. By the way, try to "keep going" when you're not only in agony in every sense of the word but also completely hopeless.

For everyone that has had suicidal intentions but didn't go trough with it, big up..I takes a hell of lot of strength of will to pull something like that off.. For everyone that was held back by friends..You should thank them if you didn't allready have done so..To everyone who has lost one dearest to them because of suicide don't blame yourself and my sincere compassion..

I just KNEW that everyone was disappointed with me anyway and would likely not miss me a whit.
The difference being, you didn't have the people who ought to have been most strongly supporting you telling you that you were worthless, and wouldn't be missed, and what's more, doing everything they could to show you they meant what they said, didn't have every 'safety net' that ought to have protected you let you slip through the holes. There's a big difference in experience between a depression caused by an internal source such as a chemical imbalance or whatnot and a depression caused by an external environmental source.
And by impossible choice I didn't mean impossible to make, I meant more....philisophically impossible.
Looking back, I see the post that was judging wasn't yours, I read a bit too fast, my mistake.

Suicide is for cowards and the mentally ill. It's also for the ignorance. Some people who kill themselves incorrectly assume that they wouldn't be missed. I know that grief is there, but that's life. For almost everyone out there, there's someone living in a hell worse than theirs. I said almost because somebody has to have the worst. If you lived said person with worst life's life for one day, your own life would be your personal heaven. Suicide is for those too blind to see their storm cloud's silver lining. I personally pondered taking my own life from time to time. Yes, I have problems. I have the good life, yet I pondered suicide. That's how sick in the head I am. I understand the thought processes involved. However, my stance won't budge.

"Persecution complex", eh? Where'd you come up with that, anyway? The fact is that most suicidal people do feel isolated and/or alienated, and if you want to call that a persecution complex, then fine, do so. It's a terrible label, and quite inaccurate, really.
As you say.

If you say things which amount to society actively trying to ruin your life because you're different, you might have a persecution complex. It's a branch of paranoia, and paranoid schizophrenics are ridiculously prone to suicide. It's a treatable condition. Of course, if your state mental health network is overbooked and understaffed (and underpaid) like most are, treatment can be spotty or nonexistent. And that's what's terrible.

You just strung my point across a banner and waved it through a crowd. You said yourslef, "I've experienced some of the worst things in life and kept on going, hoping for a better day.." You still had hope, which guarentees you didn't have depression. One of the side effects of depression is hopelessness. I would rather have my leg sawed off with no anesthetic than have depression again. By the way, try to "keep going" when you're not only in agony in every sense of the word but also completely hopeless.
The complete agony I was in is something you wish you could imagine boy..Nobody, I mean nobody tells me what I've been trough was not a state of complete hopelessness..But lets not try to overbet one another who had it worse, because that is pointless..

I then realized I still had a purpose and work to do, and shifted careers in order to continue doing what I love.

So I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Again, you had hope (That's a good thing, by the way.). Additionally, if there still was some kind of activity you loved, then your life wasn't as bad as many many others, but (in regards to your last point) I guess we will.

This debate wears on me quicky, so I'm going to call it a night. In the past I used to get so frustrated that I'd actually say things like "well if you're so on about suicide, why continue bitching about it and get on with it?" I know now that kind of "encouragement" may relieve frustration, but it's completely irresponsible. So before I get that frustrated again, good night one and all, and good luck.

Touche, and one point for you brother..I've experienced some of the worse things in life and just kept on going, hoping for a better day. I got it..and nobody is guaranteed a road.
I used the wrong phrase, at the time the only thing I could think of was to end my life. I didn't do it because my first reasoning was that if I would jump in front of a train, I thought it would traumatise the engine driver. I kept on going and got the better day, and after all of this i reflect upon it and thought of it as subconsciencely hoping for a better day.

I have experienced a hell for a childhood, but I don't believe in the fact that those 22 years say a quarter of your live can match up to the eventually 3 quarters of a life so magnificent that you wanted to get out and miss that.

People had told me for years that, due to intelligence, I am going to be someone very successful later in life. I beleived them too, and I would have loved to have jumped ahead to that point in time and skip all the crap in between, but the simple fact was: I could not bare the ten or twenty years in that dark horrible tunnel enough to wait for the light at the end.

I have experienced a hell for a childhood, but I don't believe in the fact that those 22 years say a quarter of your live can match up to the eventually 3 quarters of a life so magnificent that you wanted to get out and miss that.
As another poster says, if you had any sort of hope or positive view of the future, then you didn't really experience the same thing as others have. Which isn't to say it wasn't just as bad in its own way, but it wasn't the same experience.
Another thing for discussion and maybe a new thread would be, should the state, government or anybody else know for a fact that you are abused return you to your abuser??
*shrug* Obviously they shouldn't, but where it gets hung up is that 'know for a fact'. When you've got a youth who on paper seems to be a deliquent, as they're often running away or calling the cops over 'nothing' or otherwise 'making trouble', and that youth is claiming abuse, and an adult who seems to be a fine upstanding citizen, who says they just don't know who to do with this youth, and of course they'd never hurt their child and they have no idea how those fresh bruises got there, *gasp* do you think the child might be in a gang, they didn't come home last night (never mind that those bruises were put there this morning as 'punishment' for not coming home), and says all this very convincingly to an overworked social worker....well, social workers are only human, and overworked underpaid humans at that.
The problem is that our society has all these safety nets in place, but those safety nets have holes in them just big enough for a kid to fall through, leaving them alone and helpless with more or less a choice between trying to kill their abuser, which is pretty much certain to just get them further abused, and even if it succeeds, will get them jailed, or killing themself. Because living one more day, one more minute in that situation is just not an option.

Again, you had hope (That's a good thing, by the way.). Additionally, if there still was some kind of activity you loved, then your life wasn't as bad as many many others, but (in regards to your last point) I guess we will.
Aw hell, sucked back in for a minute...

An adolescent doesn't have a clue about the kinds of activity that can lead you through depression because they haven't had a chance to set something like that up (my "activity" is teaching, and they usually don't grant 14-year-olds licenses, but there are opportunities with the right mentoring program/situation). What they need is out of their disincentive situation, and if there's no help where you are, then that's not the place to be...whether that's your city, state, province, district or nation. Fight or flight, remember? If it can't be fought, flee. If you're caught (and returned? what kind of evil fascist DSHS d'you have where you are? If it's that bad, you have my utmost sympathy and we need to Berlin Air Lift you guys outta there and get you into the Seattle sunshine, baby!), flee again.

Ultimately, the choice is up to the individual. I know how attractive inaction is. I also know how good it feels to move on.

As you say.

If you say things which amount to society actively trying to ruin your life because you're different, you might have a persecution complex. It's a branch of paranoia, and paranoid schizophrenics are ridiculously prone to suicide. It's a treatable condition. Of course, if your state mental health network is overbooked and understaffed (and underpaid) like most are, treatment can be spotty or nonexistent. And that's what's terrible.

Paranoia in itself may or may not be a mental illness-- when it reaches the point of paranoid schizophrenia, it certainly is. But feeling that "society is out to get me" is not necessarily paranoid, because it might have some basis-- if the people you know (parents, etc.) are conformist or controlling or judgmental, it can quite easily lead to the feeling of alienation or persecution, without there being any sort of mental disorder.

I have been depressed (possibly even clinical depression, though I really don't know), but never suicidally. I don't know what it's like, and I don't think I can really come to an understanding of what it's like without going through it. It's useless to call people cowards for committing or attempting or considering suicide, even if you've been through it yourself. It's certainly not the same for anybody else as it was for you.

With that, I will follow Intangelon to bed. Well, not literally, since I don't actually know Intangelon, but I'll follow (his? her?) lead in hitting the sack.

Again, you had hope (That's a good thing, by the way.). Additionally, if there still was some kind of activity you loved, then your life wasn't as bad as many many others, but (in regards to your last point) I guess we will.

I'm sorry I said that. It crossed a few lines, didn't it?

With that, I will follow Intangelon to bed. Well, not literally, since I don't actually know Intangelon, but I'll follow (his? her?) lead in hitting the sack.
His.

I've got a spare room, no worries. :p

As another poster says, if you had any sort of hope or positive view of the future, then you didn't really experience the same thing as others have. Which isn't to say it wasn't just as bad in its own way, but it wasn't the same experience.

Thank you! That's exactly what I meant! I've apparently been going off half-cocked here. Sorry for the ambiguous information.

I'm sorry I said that. It crossed a few lines didn't it.
Not at all. This is not an easy or conventional debate topic.

It's usually seen as The Chronic Pollyannas versus the Pseudo-Goths That Nobody Understands, with very little room for a balanced position. As a supporter of the rights of the individual, including self-termination in the case of euthanasia, of course I can't come down on Pollyanna's side. However, as a college professor in North Dakota, where I had to deal with three attempted suicides of incredibly talented musicians and delightful people for three distincly different reasons, I can't come down squarely on the "pull the trigger" side, either.

I try to understand both arguments, hope versus hopelessness (both in their many guises), religion versus self-determination, etc., and try to just listen my ears off to whoever is needing to vomit out the foul vitriolic ichor that they bottle up inside. Fortunately, this being a Catholic university, there's no shortage of folks wanting to help. Unofrtunately, they're not the most flexible when it comes to ideology and realizing that their patient may not want the help of what they've come to understand as an invisible man in the sky who wants us all to gather once or twice a week in a big building with bells in it to compare clothing.

I don't have the stomach for optimism, and I don't have the emptiness (anymore) for nihilism. I just hang on to the raft and ride.

Again, good night.

Again, good night.
Sleep well!

Good night to you too. :)

Suicide is the cowards way out. Anyone who commits suicide, is in general, a coward, who is afraid to face their problems.

Hahaha. Says the spoiled brat. Personally, I've never experienced the need to kill myself - despite some dark spells in my life. However, I knew several people who killed themselves - and I don't blame anyone of them. It's their life. And I reckon there are things can build up to an unpassable mountain or hole. All those suicides have been commited by 18 - 23 years old and what REALLY pissed me off and made me sick were all those people who were 'so shocked' and went to the funeral to 'show that we were with him/her'. YOU F#$#% HYPOCRITS. If you would have been there for him/her all those years before, he/she might actually not have gotten into the situation of having to kill him/herself. Pisses me off. If one of my friends would kill himself and I haden't made a REAL effort to help him (or didn't even know about his state to be so bad), I'd be ashemed of myself.

Suicide is the cowards way out. Anyone who commits suicide, is in general, a coward, who is afraid to face their problems.

Hahaha. Says the spoiled brat. Personally, I've never experienced the need to kill myself - despite some dark spells in my life. However, I knew several people who killed themselves - and I don't blame anyone of them. It's their life. And I reckon there are things can build up to an unpassable mountain or hole. All those suicides have been commited by 18 - 23 years old and what REALLY pissed me off and made me sick were all those people who were 'so shocked' and went to the funeral to 'show that we were with him/her'. YOU F#$#% HYPOCRITS. If you would have been there for him/her all those years before, he/she might actually not have gotten into the situation of having to kill him/herself. Pisses me off. If one of my friends would kill himself and I haden't made a REAL effort to help him (or didn't even know about his state to be so bad), I'd be ashemed of myself.

you make a valid point, but if the family dont know what's going on in their head, how are they supposed to help

you make a valid point, but if the family dont know what's going on in their head, how are they supposed to help

Ususally, the person is question will tell you- many times, long before anything happens. That other person is right; it is a pretty bad sign if you are suprised by your child's suicide. That means you obviously weren't playing an active (or certainly close) role in their life. As I said, they will tell you. Most people just ignore the warning signs. They don't see what they don't want to see, and they assume it can't be true.

It would appear that this debate has ended. In that case, adios!

Ususally, the person is question will tell you- many times, long before anything happens. That other person is right; it is a pretty bad sign if you are suprised by your child's suicide. That means you obviously weren't playing an active (or certainly close) role in their life. As I said, they will tell you. Most people just ignore the warning signs. They don't see what they don't want to see, and they assume it can't be true.


I understand what you're saying, and on the most part I agree that some people show warning signs that can be picked up, but I think it's a bit of a generalistion. Not all people who are suicidal speak of it or show signs.

It would appear that this debate has ended. In that case, adios!
Dude, everyone just crashed for the night. Come back in like 6 hours, there'll be plenty of new posts!

I think suicide can be selfish, but it really also depends on how the person does it. I had this kid in my class a few years and he knew he didn't want to live in a world like this ever since he was something like 13. But, he waited till he had turned 18 till kill him self, that i thought made it less selfish, but he decided to kill himself on christmas :( .... His parents did know that he wanted to kill himself but they'd tried to help him but i guess there wasn't really anything they could do about it, no one at school had any idea that he had any of these thoughts.

Someone who thinks suicide is selfish is the most selfish of anyone. Honestly believing that because knowing them they are a part in dictating the outcome of the other person's fate.

Supposedly the right to life is the most precious, but if that is so than doesn't it follow that the right to end that life is also precious?

everybody has thought about suicide, most people seriously consider it, but everyone who has gone through a suicidal period knows that things eventually get better. there are always alternatives to suicide, suicide is just the easiest, most permanent way out. so yes it is cowardly and selfish.

You're an asshole.

My stepfather was physically and verbally abusive to me. He lied to me, he stole from me, he threatened to kill me on multiple occasions. So, at the age of 14, I attempted suicide. It was the HARDEST DECISION OF MY LIFE. And until you have been in a situation like that, until you have known the incomprehensible amount of suffering that a person must endure before becoming suicidal, you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to tell people what is "cowardice" and what isn't. For you to pass judgement on a group of people who you don't even know, and who suffer far more than you ever will, makes you the most arrogant shithead in the whole fucking universe.

So shut the fuck up until you know what the fuck you're talking about.

Thank you. On that note, I thought about it alot in my younger years (14-16), and actually attmpted it once... only got a hell of a hangover (I tried to OD on diphenhydramine.) Luckily for me, I'm glad it didn't work, because my life is good now, and has been for years (I'm 20 now). But it is a decision only one person can make, and its really none of anybody else's business. I also do not believe it to be cowerdly, its just a choice, and a choice anybody should have the right to make. I do believe though, that if one is considering susicide, they should first try to exhaust all their options to get out of whatever situation (weather physical, psychological, environmental, whatever) before setting their mind to it, however, ultimatly, its up to them in the end, and nobody should think less of them for making that choice.

everybody has thought about suicide, most people seriously consider it, but everyone who has gone through a suicidal period knows that things eventually get better.

Depression just doesn't go away because you have a realization, if it did then you were never depressed to begin with.

As for it claiming suicide is the easiest and cowardly way out...that just doesn't make any fucking sense.

On the other hand it is even more selfish for the loved ones to wish the suicidal person to continue existing with that much unhappiness despair and pain in order to avoid grief.

I agree. It's selfish to expect someone living in pain, as the must be doing, to simply go on existing simply for them. Not all problems have a solution, and sometimes it's easier to simply kill one's self and be at peace.

That being said, I personally can't see my self committing suicide unless I had gained some sort of physical and mental disability. That, and I'd probably kill my self before getting too old. Between forty and sixty, I'd say.

You're an asshole.

My stepfather was physically and verbally abusive to me. He lied to me, he stole from me, he threatened to kill me on multiple occasions. So, at the age of 14, I attempted suicide. It was the HARDEST DECISION OF MY LIFE. And until you have been in a situation like that, until you have known the incomprehensible amount of suffering that a person must endure before becoming suicidal, you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to tell people what is "cowardice" and what isn't. For you to pass judgement on a group of people who you don't even know, and who suffer far more than you ever will, makes you the most arrogant shithead in the whole fucking universe.

So shut the fuck up until you know what the fuck you're talking about.
Calm down.

The reasons as to why people accused others of being cowards when they attempt suicide is due to suicide a way to end everything, including problems/solutions (obvious). I for one believe that all problems of the world could either be:

a) ignored
b) avoided
c) get done kicking and screaming
d) get done quietly
e) get done then have revenge
f) pushed onto someone else

You see, I'm not a very good person, although I admit I am therefore I aren't very bad either.

Everything in moderation is key. Low expectations of life is also pretty good. Laziness is good as long as you don't always be lazy.

What I like is to have a moderate life. With no depressions in the bumpy road of life, how can you see the world with its miracles and exclaim: "Wow! Miracles!" and get strange looks from people too busy to have fun (i.e. Everybody). Why worry about the eventual extinction of the human race and go all gothic and emo? What's more important is that you are happy NOW!

The very fact that you are alive, should be enough to make you content. Now excuse me if I go dance in my room and sing horribly in joy.

PS: I'm afriad my words are not able to convey the happiness I am experiencing at the moment. Dancing on the keyboard with my fingers!

That being said, I personally can't see my self committing suicide unless I had gained some sort of physical and mental disability. That, and I'd probably kill my self before getting too old. Between forty and sixty, I'd say.

Why take your own life? Go out testing drugs, or something else useful.

Yea, but there are people who actually have OK lives, and don't really warrent taking their own lives.
didn't read the thred, so don't know if you already answered it, but how do you objectively judge who had an "OK" life?

didn't read the thred, so don't know if you already answered it, but how do you objectively judge who had an "OK" life?


Exactly. What you may consider "ok" maybe unbearable for other people.

Exactly. What you may consider "ok" maybe unbearable for other people.
true, and then there are families like the one I grew up in, big bad stuff going on, people on the outside? they had no clue, the patriarch of the family is still a community leader, people outside of bad families think that the stereotypical "disfunctional family" has the dad out of work and the redneck mom, the dirty bruised kids, and the cops at the house every weekend.

The truth is that many families are so entrenched in abuse that on the outside they can look quite normal.

Is suicide selfish? Hmm.

self·ish
adj.
Concerned chiefly or only with oneself: “Selfish men were... trying to make capital for themselves out of the sacred cause of human rights” (Maria Weston Chapman).
Arising from, characterized by, or showing selfishness: a selfish whim.

Well, suicide is generally a result of being unhappy with one's own life and believing that it will not get better, which could be considered selfish. It is also often due to disordered cognitive processes, due to depression, substance abuse, or mental trauma, in which case it couldn't possibly be considered selfish. Your father with advanced alzheimer's, who doesn't recognize you and throws his poop at you while screaming in Dutch, is he being selfish? No.

To present another (fictitious) example, there was a guy on E.R. who had tried to make his kidney-damaged daughter healthy again with an experimental treatment, which ended up destroying the liver she had recently had donated to her. It would take her years to get a new liver, so he killed himself right outside the hospital so they would give her HIS liver cause they wouldn't let him donate his liver to her and have to go through daily dialysis the rest of his life. So, I would consider that suicide to be unselfish because it was done in a spirit of altruism AND overwhelming mental distress.

Yes, it's cowardly. To end your life to escape your problems is ignoble. One must learn, not escape.
Wait, selfish? Oh, yes it's that too. What will happen to those around you after this happens? They'll be in pain for your happiness.

My Brother attempted suicide twice..in succession..once by drinking liquid morphine and taking all the pills he could swallow ...and when he actually woke up...he jumped in the tub and almost cut his hands off before stabbing himself in the chest a couple times...he missed his heart by a few mm....needless to say after my dad found him...and he was medivaced to intensive care and commited for some mental tunning up....he lived .

he claims he will never do it again because it was a real pain emhpisis on PAIN . And opened up his eyes a bit...family blah blah blah...

He now lives with me ...I am his .." care giver " what ever that means .
He lost everything he had because of the whole suicide attempt "thing "

If anyone here is actually contemplating suicide ..pm me or leave a note in this thread..I'll put you in touch with someone who has actually died and has been reborn .

Why take your own life? Go out testing drugs, or something else useful.

Because my average lifespan is around eighty or so years. Who wants to live that long? Not me.

The life being taken belongs to the suicidal person and no one else. They have the right to decide the terms of their own death. All the assholes who made their life so horrible can just go fuck themselves.
That is the biggest problem.....the desire to blame others for THEIR way of life. Many have made bad choices but want to blame their mistakes on others. The fortunate ones wake up before it is too late and help themselves by getting help.

If your life sucks, change it. There is no need to kill yourself.

OR, they can make a change in their life. ALL problems have a solution. You can always end whatever is giving you so much grief. If it is a group of people giving you grief, go else where.

You can always put an end to it.

Right, because we live in Happy Fairy Tale Land, where there are no unhappy endings, all problems have easy solutions, the sky is always blue and sunny, and everyone is pretty and happy and nice.

I hate to break it to you, but in the real world, many problems don't have solutions. You should feel awfully lucky that you have yet to encounter a problem you couldn't solve, because you're decidedly the exception and not the rule here.

The problem I have with people who have commited or attempted suicide due to depression is that they incorrectly assume that their life is hopeless and they are destined to suffer for as long as they are alive. Suicides and attempted suicides are cowards because they kill themselves to escape their problems rather then deal with them.

I have also notice that some of the people on this forum who have claimed to have attempted suicide have unfairly accused those who criticize them because they have never attempted it. There are plenty of people who have had harder and more difficult lives, yet they manage to struggle on. Don't ever assume that a person you have never met has it better than you, even if they never have been suicidal before.

Suicide is nature's way of thinning out the herd.

Suicide is for cowards and the mentally ill. It's also for the ignorance. Some people who kill themselves incorrectly assume that they wouldn't be missed. I know that grief is there, but that's life. For almost everyone out there, there's someone living in a hell worse than theirs. I said almost because somebody has to have the worst. If you lived said person with worst life's life for one day, your own life would be your personal heaven. Suicide is for those too blind to see their storm cloud's silver lining. I personally pondered taking my own life from time to time. Yes, I have problems. I have the good life, yet I pondered suicide. That's how sick in the head I am. I understand the thought processes involved. However, my stance won't budge.

I greatly dislike your entire assertion, but I take particular issue with your grouping of "cowards" and "the mentally ill." Mental disorders are not character flaws. I have bipolar II disorder. This does not make me in any way a bad person, a coward, ignorant, or "blind." I have, in the past, attempted suicide. I was in no way a coward, ignorant, or blind then, either. What I was was someone whose life as she knew it had fallen completely apart, who had absolutely no support system, who was dealing with severe and chronic abuse, and who had seemingly irrevocably lost all the things in life that were most important to her. At that point, whether or not someone else's life was "worse" (as if there's some objective scale by which quality of life could accurately be measured) was irrelevant. What I was dealing with was bad enough that I had no good reason to put up with it other than some strangers' uninformed assertions that suicide was somehow intrinsically "selfish."

(Incidentally, I'd like to hear someone explain how suicide would still be selfish if committed by someone who lacked family or friends, since the only vaguely logical reasoning I've ever heard behind the "selfish" argument is "it hurts the people who love you." If no one loves him or her, is a suicide still being selfish?)

Suicide is the most idiotic, selfish (just like everything else we do), cowardly, COWARDLY, pathetic, peice-of-crap decision one could make. I emphasize on the stupidity and cowardliness. It's just f*cking dumb. Even in the deepest depths of my depression, suicide was never an option. It offers no solution. Maybe it is because I'm atheist, but non-existence is a hell of a lot worse than a shit one. I cannot get over the immense stupidity of all of the f*ckwits who take their own lives. Yes they are selfish, but to a greater extent they are just nieve, foolish, and possibly not worthy of life in any case. No problem is so bad that nonexistence is a better alternative. I beleive that those that commit suicide get exactly what they deserve, (or at least what they asked for), an eternity of nothing. The thing that shits me most about suicide is that the finality of it circumvents any realisation/regret from those who took that path of their monumental f*ck-up. The only consolation tht I can think of is that these imbiciles are cleansing their filthy DNA from the gene pool, and thus improving it all for the rest of us. Further, suicide most often occurs in youth, before they have bred. Maybe the ever-increasing suicide rate will be the counterbalance to the "all of the stupid people are breeding"-effect, thus keeping the human race intelligent. I cannot express my disdain for these miserable worms. I detest them more than I do fat people (extremely), Americans (slightly), racists (extremely), and christians (highly) combined*.

*Individually and seperately. A fat, American, racist, christian, would attract more disgust from me than someone who committed suicide (Unless s/he also possessed at least two or more of the above descriptors at the time of suicide. In the event of a fat American racist christian commiting suicide, the foul mixture of disgust, disdain, and distaste from the two detestable aspects of the encounter would form a double-negative, inverting itself into a vague feeling of contentedness.

Suicide is the most idiotic, selfish (just like everything else we do), cowardly, COWARDLY, pathetic, peice-of-crap decision one could make. I emphasize on the stupidity and cowardliness. It's just f*cking dumb. Even in the deepest depths of my depression, suicide was never an option. It offers no solution. Maybe it is because I'm atheist, but non-existence is a hell of a lot worse than a shit one. I cannot get over the immense stupidity of all of the f*ckwits who take their own lives. Yes they are selfish, but to a greater extent they are just nieve, foolish, and possibly not worthy of life in any case. No problem is so bad that nonexistence is a better alternative. I beleive that those that commit suicide get exactly what they deserve, (or at least what they asked for), an eternity of nothing. The thing that shits me most about suicide is that the finality of it circumvents any realisation/regret from those who took that path of their monumental f*ck-up. The only consolation tht I can think of is that these imbiciles are cleansing their filthy DNA from the gene pool, and thus improving it all for the rest of us. Further, suicide most often occurs in youth, before they have bred. Maybe the ever-increasing suicide rate will be the counterbalance to the "all of the stupid people are breeding"-effect, thus keeping the human race intelligent. I cannot express my disdain for these miserable worms. I detest them more than I do fat people (extremely), Americans (slightly), racists (extremely), and christians (highly) combined*.

*Individually and seperately. A fat, American, racist, christian, would attract more disgust from me than someone who committed suicide (Unless s/he also possessed at least two or more of the above descriptors at the time of suicide. In the event of a fat American racist christian commiting suicide, the foul mixture of disgust, disdain, and distaste from the two detestable aspects of the encounter would form a double-negative, inverting itself into a vague feeling of contentedness.

My, my, aren't we grumpy?

IF the person is perfactly sane, let 'em do it.
However, it is extremely selfish, and ungrateful to God.

Suicide is nature's way of thinning out the herd.
No. Disease famine and drought are natures way as reducing the population. There is nothing natural about suicide. How many monkeys have you seen intentionally put a noose around their neck and hang themselves from a tree?

everybody has thought about suicide, most people seriously consider it, but everyone who has gone through a suicidal period knows that things eventually get better. there are always alternatives to suicide, suicide is just the easiest, most permanent way out. so yes it is cowardly and selfish.

Everyone who has gone through a suicidal period knows that things eventually get better? Hardly. As already pointed out, this may well be true in Happy Fairy Tale Land, but in the real world, things sometimes get worse. I'll certainly agree that many people who have gone through a suicidal period find that their lives eventually improve, but you simply can't claim that to be true in all cases.

Suicide is the most idiotic, selfish (just like everything else we do), cowardly, COWARDLY, pathetic, peice-of-crap decision one could make. I emphasize on the stupidity and cowardliness. It's just f*cking dumb. Even in the deepest depths of my depression, suicide was never an option. It offers no solution. Maybe it is because I'm atheist, but non-existence is a hell of a lot worse than a shit one. I cannot get over the immense stupidity of all of the f*ckwits who take their own lives. Yes they are selfish, but to a greater extent they are just nieve, foolish, and possibly not worthy of life in any case. No problem is so bad that nonexistence is a better alternative. I beleive that those that commit suicide get exactly what they deserve, (or at least what they asked for), an eternity of nothing. The thing that shits me most about suicide is that the finality of it circumvents any realisation/regret from those who took that path of their monumental f*ck-up. The only consolation tht I can think of is that these imbiciles are cleansing their filthy DNA from the gene pool, and thus improving it all for the rest of us. Further, suicide most often occurs in youth, before they have bred. Maybe the ever-increasing suicide rate will be the counterbalance to the "all of the stupid people are breeding"-effect, thus keeping the human race intelligent. I cannot express my disdain for these miserable worms. I detest them more than I do fat people (extremely), Americans (slightly), racists (extremely), and christians (highly) combined*.

*Individually and seperately. A fat, American, racist, christian, would attract more disgust from me than someone who committed suicide (Unless s/he also possessed at least two or more of the above descriptors at the time of suicide. In the event of a fat American racist christian commiting suicide, the foul mixture of disgust, disdain, and distaste from the two detestable aspects of the encounter would form a double-negative, inverting itself into a vague feeling of contentedness.
:(
So much hate and only one of those groups really deserve it(racists :sniper: ).

Although I think it's arguable as to whether suicide is selfish or not, to me it is 100% not cowardly. Have any of you people that think otherwise ever been at that point where you have to say "If I do this I'm going to die"? It's the hardest thing in the world! Think of a soldier going in to battle, he's probably scared as hell about injuries that he might receive, imagine knowing that you will die, that this is it. so to all of you people who think that people who try to kill themselves are cowards, :upyours: . When someone tries to kill themself they are going through something tougher than anything that you've ever been through, remember that different things affect different people differently, it's all about perception (You'd be more upset about a pet dying than hearing about a whole family of people dying on the news) does this mean that you're an ass? no, it just means that you perceive things differently from the guy whose family it was that died.

Basically, just because something seems minor to you, it could literally be a life and death thing for someone else, so instead of calling suicidal people cowards, maybe you should try to help them

"Blah blah blah I like insulting whole groups of people blah!"


Given that several people (myself included) on this thread have discussed past suicide attempts, I'd say this constitutes trolling. I'd also say that I'd kindly appreciate it if you'd grow up and stop blathering about how stupid and terrible everyone who isn't exactly like you is. :rolleyes:

I greatly dislike your entire assertion, but I take particular issue with your grouping of "cowards" and "the mentally ill." Mental disorders are not character flaws. I have bipolar II disorder. This does not make me in any way a bad person, a coward, ignorant, or "blind." I have, in the past, attempted suicide. I was in no way a coward, ignorant, or blind then, either. What I was was someone whose life as she knew it had fallen completely apart, who had absolutely no support system, who was dealing with severe and chronic abuse, and who had seemingly irrevocably lost all the things in life that were most important to her. At that point, whether or not someone else's life was "worse" (as if there's some objective scale by which quality of life could accurately be measured) was irrelevant. What I was dealing with was bad enough that I had no good reason to put up with it other than some strangers' uninformed assertions that suicide was somehow intrinsically "selfish."

(Incidentally, I'd like to hear someone explain how suicide would still be selfish if committed by someone who lacked family or friends, since the only vaguely logical reasoning I've ever heard behind the "selfish" argument is "it hurts the people who love you." If no one loves him or her, is a suicide still being selfish?)

It must be terrible being you. Suicide is selfish on different levels. Firstly it is selfish in the sense that all things are selfish (You would not do it if it did not forward your subjective motives). Secondly it is selfish in the metaphysical/religious sense wherein you are tossing away your extremely fortunate existence that you fought for against millions of other spermatoza to get, or were granted by a deity of some sort, because of your petty petty little problems, and mislead beleif that they are so bad they are not even worth suffering. Thirdly it is selfish in the sense you stated, you are commiting an act at the severe expense of others, for your own self righteous BS. Finally it is selfish in the lazy/cowardly sense, wherein you throw in the towel, rather than actually deal with your problems.
Funnily enough, it is not the selfishness that bugs me so much, it is the stupidity.

My, my, aren't we grumpy?
I am actually a really friendly, calm, nice guy. Honest...

I am actually a really friendly, calm, nice guy. Honest...

It matters not if that statement is true, how ever.

:(
So much hate and only one of those groups really deserve it(racists :sniper: ).
Meh, us Americans are kind of pricks.

As for suicide, all I can say is, for me, when I think about suicide and killing myself, it is 1100% selfish and cowardly. This isn't true for others, but for me, I KNOW how much killing myself will hurt others, and I KNOW that killing myself would be a pathetic escape. I have actually, in the past, contemplated suicide solely as a means to hurt others, even and especially those few people who, for reasons unknown, actually love me, because I am a fucking bastard. Which is yet another reason to kill myself, the fact that I fucking deserve it. But, I digress...

But for anyone else, no, killing yourself is not cowardly or selfish. Sometimes, living just hurts way to much, and you just have to take a leap of faith that the next life will be better. However, you shouldn't kill yourself. Because, for most people who would try to commit suicide, the world is just a little worse without them. And that sucks for the rest of us.

:(
So much hate and only one of those groups really deserve it(racists :sniper: ).
I very carefully avoided the word 'hate'. I don't do the hate thing (lack of motivation maybe) it's just not healthy for me or the world. Admittedly 'detest' is just another word for hate, but it was essential in my use of alliteration. Disdain and disgust are much more accurate. Racists do deserve it the most. Fat people is an irrational thing I have always had. I just don't like them. More, I REALLY can't take them or their fatness. Psychological I guess. Americans and christians I do not have a problem with in nature, I can love an American Christian, but I probably won't, because their philosophical habits and alignments usually shit me. Disdain is the word for Americans and Christians, not disgust.

It must be terrible being you. Suicide is selfish on different levels. Firstly it is selfish in the sense that all things are selfish (You would not do it if it did not forward your subjective motives). Secondly it is selfish in the metaphysical/religious sense wherein you are tossing away your extremely fortunate existence that you fought for against millions of other spermatoza to get, or were granted by a deity of some sort, because of your petty petty little problems, and mislead beleif that they are so bad they are not even worth suffering. Thirdly it is selfish in the sense you stated, you are commiting an act at the severe expense of others, for your own self righteous BS. Finally it is selfish in the lazy/cowardly sense, wherein you throw in the towel, rather than actually deal with your problems.
Funnily enough, it is not the selfishness that bugs me so much, it is the stupidity.

I was going to reply to this, but to be honest, this sort of utter bullshit isn't even worth the effort. It's like arguing with the smelly guy on the street corner shrieking about how the world is ending - what's the point?

I am actually a really friendly, calm, nice guy. Honest...
GPN, did someone you know and care about kill themselves? Because that would really make your attitude towards suicide make sense.

Given that several people (myself included) on this thread have discussed past suicide attempts, I'd say this constitutes trolling. I'd also say that I'd kindly appreciate it if you'd grow up and stop blathering about how stupid and terrible everyone who isn't exactly like you is. :rolleyes:
It's got nothing to do with being like me. Admittedly I am a little intolerant of sheer mindless idiocy. However, I think this is justified (unlike my fat person thing, which I try not to talk about too much). I did call suicide stupid, foolish nieve, shortsighted, cowardly, selfish, and more. Then I explained why. If you think my comments were unjustified, refute my reasoning. Or point a stick at me and scream troll, whatever.

It matters not if that statement is true, how ever.
heh, true. Yeah...Fatpeople, Suicide, and injustice (usually racial, one of the most common encountered forms). Does it everytime. I just can't abide by any of the above. I get a little passionate. Never 'angry' per se, but always riled.

I was going to reply to this, but to be honest, this sort of utter bullshit isn't even worth the effort. It's like arguing with the smelly guy on the street corner shrieking about how the world is ending - what's the point?
Ok...I've exhaled. Tell me in what sense, in relation to the aforementioned accords(or your own if you can think of more, please share), suicide is not selfish.

P.S. Have you ever argued with one of those guys? I guarantee you it is an absolute barrel of monkeys. Great way to pass time, sharpen your argumentative skills vs. non-conventional/logical techniques(which are very widely implemented), and think of potential best-selling novel ideas.

Maybe the ever-increasing suicide rate will be the counterbalance to the "all of the stupid people are breeding"-effect, thus keeping the human race intelligent.

Alright, sorry, but that's dumb as hell. I mean, are all the hicks suddenly committing mass suicide or something? How 'bout the jocks and cheerleaders, or any of the other stupid and promiscuous groups of people? I mean, suicidal folks aren't known for their skills in the hay... they certainly aren't popping out kids left and right.

GPN, did someone you know and care about kill themselves? Because that would really make your attitude towards suicide make sense.
Well...yes. However, I would argue that I am not a victim to reactionary philosphy. I would be wrong, to an extent, but I would argue it nonetheless. Whilst an event of the kind did indeed happen quite recently, the opinions I hole, I held before the event. However, my stance was not as..passionate as it is now. Suicide used to bother me slightly for the aforementioned reasons, now it shits me intensely.

Alright, sorry, but that's dumb as hell. I mean, are all the hicks suddenly committing mass suicide or something? How 'bout the jocks and cheerleaders, or any of the other stupid and promiscuous groups of people? I mean, suicidal folks aren't known for their skills in the hay... they certainly aren't popping out kids left and right.
Jeez... Did I actually say that?
...You aren't supposed to call me on the shit I garble. Go criticse something well thought out and reasonable, that I can effectively rebutt.

It's got nothing to do with being like me. Admittedly I am a little intolerant of sheer mindless idiocy. However, I think this is justified (unlike my fat person thing, which I try not to talk about too much). I did call suicide stupid, foolish nieve, shortsighted, cowardly, selfish, and more. Then I explained why. If you think my comments were unjustified, refute my reasoning. Or point a stick at me and scream troll, whatever.

I'm sure there are other aspects of being like you besides "not fat," "not American," "not racist," "never been suicidal," and "not Christian" ("not rational" and "not older than about 13, or at least not acting like it" spring to mind), but there didn't seem to be any other factor linking those items. I have to admit it seems ironic that you are intolerant of "sheer mindless idiocy." Coming from the person who explained that suicide is selfish due partly to a moral obligation to one's father's unused spermatozoa, that's rather entertaining.

I'd also like to note that I am very decidedly not the one screaming here, although I admit it became tempting when you starting mocking what I went through several years ago. Please, dear child, if you're ever sexually assaulted, abandoned by your entire family, diagnosed with a serious, possibly incurable illness which is likely to prevent you from ever having children, and stranded in a strange city with no friends, no source of income, and no support system whatsoever - except, of course, for your boyfriend, who's taken to beating the crap out of you, calling you a "worthless whore," and encouraging his friends to do likewise, and who has threatened to hurt you worse if you ever try to escape him, all within the same month, come talk to me about how pathetic, cowardly, and stupid I was to consider suicide. In the meantime, I'll thank you to keep your inane and ignorant judgments to yourself.

heh, true. Yeah...Fatpeople, Suicide, and injustice (usually racial, one of the most common encountered forms). Does it everytime. I just can't abide by any of the above. I get a little passionate. Never 'angry' per se, but always riled.

I think you cussing people whom have committed suicide is wholly immature. Like I said, not existing is sometimes better then to go on living in misery. It's also silly to call people that have killed them selves cowards. It takes alot of strength to do something like that, end your own life, not knowing what's next, if anything.

My husband's father committed suicide last month. He was 53, in a long term relationship, with family and friends. He lived in a little tiny town his whole life in a house his grandparents had bought, so everyone knew him.

It is a selfish thing to do. When he weighed his options no one else was important enough for him to keep that shotgun out of his mouth. No one else was worth waiting for. No one on the face of the planet was worth as much to him as himself.

I miss him, a great deal. We went to his funeral today, and we cried, and we remembered, and we wished it weren't true. There are big things happening in the near future that he's going to miss because he decided not to stay around. I loved him, but now he'll never get to meet my children, and that makes me angry.

I turned from suicide when I was younger because of this thought pattern. Abuse, family and other social problems, abandonment, hopelessness... but when push came to shove the thought of my brothers, my mom, my few friends made me put the bottles back in the cabinet. It's not a cowardly thing to do, but there's not a more self-centered decision that anyone could make. Ever.

I still fight my depression because I realized that. Bipolar, chronic depression, on top of the normal stress of everyday life as an immigrant... it's not easy, but there will never be another suicidal thought through my brain because there are people worth living for, even if that person isn't always me.

Well...yes. However, I would argue that I am not a victim to reactionary philosphy. I would be wrong, to an extent, but I would argue it nonetheless. Whilst an event of the kind did indeed happen quite recently, the opinions I hole, I held before the event. However, my stance was not as..passionate as it is now. Suicide used to bother me slightly for the aforementioned reasons, now it shits me intensely.
OK, now I can understand your viewpoint, and I'm sorry that you lost whoever it was.

Jeez... Did I actually say that?
...You aren't supposed to call me on the shit I garble. Go criticse something well thought out and reasonable, that I can effectively rebutt.
Hehehe

Also, as for "suicide being no solution because of atheism", well, you have it better than I do. If you kill yourself, you just get oblivion. IF I kill myself, I get to enjoy being raped by the devil for the rest of eternity. You lucky bastard.
As for the finality of suicide, well, I think the people who kill themselves live on through the people who knew them. They feel the regret, hurt and sorrow that the deceased should feel, and, hopefully, will eventually forgive the person, understand what they felt and how much the dead loved those that they left behind, and eventually come to peace with themselves. In this way, the dead person does, by proxy, go through the life they would have had, so its not truly final, it's taking a different form.

Maybe I'm just talking bullshit, though. I can't really put what I mean into words.

I saw a dog once . . . it went away . . i was sad.

I'm sure there are other aspects of being like you besides "not fat," "not American," "not racist," "never been suicidal," and "not Christian" ("not rational" and "not older than about 13, or at least not acting like it" spring to mind), but there didn't seem to be any other factor linking those items. I have to admit it seems ironic that you are intolerant of "sheer mindless idiocy." Coming from the person who explained that suicide is selfish due partly to a moral obligation to one's father's unused spermatozoa, that's rather entertaining.
My side acknowledgements of things I did not like in order to accurately communicate the degree to which I am opposed to the concept of suicide had no bearing on the argument prior. To make an issue of it is pure semantics. You seemed to misunderstand the sperm analogy. The point is sentient existence is an exclusive club, and you have a members card. Even existence is pretty damn exclusive, think of all of the things which don't exist (infinite, actually). I don't beleive in morals (or obligations thereof).

I'd also like to note that I am very decidedly not the one screaming here,Point taken, I will try to relax. although I admit it became tempting when you starting mocking what I went through several years ago. Please, dear child, if you're ever sexually assaulted, abandoned by your entire family, diagnosed with a serious, possibly incurable illness which is likely to prevent you from ever having children, and stranded in a strange city with no friends, no source of income, and no support system whatsoever - except, of course, for your boyfriend, who's taken to beating the crap out of you, calling you a "worthless whore," and encouraging his friends to do likewise, and who has threatened to hurt you worse if you ever try to escape him, all within the same month, come talk to me about how pathetic, cowardly, and stupid I was to consider suicide. In the meantime, I'll thank you to keep your inane and ignorant judgments to yourself. 6/10 checked. Mind you, some of the above mini-tragedies are female-specific, and some of mine aren't listed. If you will permit me to join you on your high horse (or is it a low horse?) would you like to explain how suicide isn't any of the things I listed and gave reasons for? Or would you like to continue telling me about the greek tragedy that was your life, and assert that no-one has ever experienced a relatable tragedy to contend your feelings on an issue only semi-related to the topic at hand?

I think you cussing people whom have committed suicide is wholly immature. Like I said, not existing is sometimes better then to go on living in misery. It's also silly to call people that have killed them selves cowards. It takes alot of strength to do something like that, end your own life, not knowing what's next, if anything.
Non-existence is neither better nor worse than misery. It is not (as a noun, emphasis lying on not). Try and think about what non-existence is (or isn't). To analyse, take a starving person. There is good food, and there is bad food, and there is no food. Or take human contact. There is good contact (love, kisses, conversation), and there is bad contact (violence, arguemments, abuse...). Then there is no contact (Isolation). Now take those situations, and make the non-option irreversible, and final.
I does take a lot of strength to kill yourself. That and a nice dose of stupidity, selfishness, and nievity.

Ok...I've exhaled. Tell me in what sense, in relation to the aforementioned accords(or your own if you can think of more, please share), suicide is not selfish.

It must be terrible being you. Suicide is selfish on different levels. Firstly it is selfish in the sense that all things are selfish (You would not do it if it did not forward your subjective motives). Secondly it is selfish in the metaphysical/religious sense wherein you are tossing away your extremely fortunate existence that you fought for against millions of other spermatoza to get, or were granted by a deity of some sort, because of your petty petty little problems, and mislead beleif that they are so bad they are not even worth suffering. Thirdly it is selfish in the sense you stated, you are commiting an act at the severe expense of others, for your own self righteous BS. Finally it is selfish in the lazy/cowardly sense, wherein you throw in the towel, rather than actually deal with your problems.
Funnily enough, it is not the selfishness that bugs me so much, it is the stupidity.

As I stated previously, there is a certain measure of selfishness involved if the person committing suicide is hurting others by doing so. There are certainly situations where this is not the case - in my own situation, I probably would have made a few friends whom I rarely talked to and never saw somewhat sad. I probably would have made my parents, whom I had not spoken to in about a year, by their own decision, somewhat sad, and possibly a little guilty. I did not consider several people's "somewhat sad" to outweigh my own "absolutely miserable." One could argue that this was slightly selfish of me, but I find it hard to conceive of any logical argument that would support anything more than "slightly." No one should be expected to disregard their own happiness entirely, and I see it as no more reasonable to expect someone to continue living simply because a few people would be a little bit happier that way than to expect someone to die simply because a few people would be a little bit happier that way.

However, I see no other logical argument for suicide being selfish. (Well, maybe the "all things are selfish" one, but once a description applies to absolutely everything, it's a useless description.) The "moral obligation to God and/or leftover sperm" argument is simply ridiculous. I'll assume you're nominally intelligent enough to realize that the latter portion of that is absurd, so I'll address the former. If I give you a present, that present belongs to you. I have no claim over it now; it is your property. If God gives you life, then that life belongs to you, as well, to use as you see fit. That's what "free will" means. Furthermore, one isn't obligated to feel grateful for something one doesn't want. If I give you a kind gift of a large bag of rotting excrement, you're allowed not to be thrilled about it. Is that "selfish"? Maybe, but who will fault you for it?

As for the lazy/cowardly sense, that is, to put it simply, horseshit. It is absurd and offensive to blame people for not having the resources to solve their problems in other ways. Suicide is neither lazy nor cowardly; it is quite simply an unconventional way out of an intolerable situation, generally used only when conventional routes are blocked. If you have an incurable illness, you can't cure it. If you're living in what one could call an "incurable" situation, you also can't cure it. There's nothing particularly "brave" about putting up with misery rather than attempting to escape that misery. There's simply something a lot more lucky about having the option to escape that misery in some way other than locking yourself in the garage with your car engine running.

My husband's father committed suicide last month. He was 53, in a long term relationship, with family and friends. He lived in a little tiny town his whole life in a house his grandparents had bought, so everyone knew him.

It is a selfish thing to do. When he weighed his options no one else was important enough for him to keep that shotgun out of his mouth. No one else was worth waiting for. No one on the face of the planet was worth as much to him as himself.

I miss him, a great deal. We went to his funeral today, and we cried, and we remembered, and we wished it weren't true. There are big things happening in the near future that he's going to miss because he decided not to stay around. I loved him, but now he'll never get to meet my children, and that makes me angry.

I turned from suicide when I was younger because of this thought pattern. Abuse, family and other social problems, abandonment, hopelessness... but when push came to shove the thought of my brothers, my mom, my few friends made me put the bottles back in the cabinet. It's not a cowardly thing to do, but there's not a more self-centered decision that anyone could make. Ever.

I still fight my depression because I realized that. Bipolar, chronic depression, on top of the normal stress of everyday life as an immigrant... it's not easy, but there will never be another suicidal thought through my brain because there are people worth living for, even if that person isn't always me.
Suicide funerals are the most sobering and alien procesions. Never have felt anything even remotely similar... Keep your chin up, you are already seemingly doing well. You sound like you have a rough time ahead, though. Just remember, what does not kill will only make you stronger. Think about it. You'll be inconquerable if you can make it through. And you will. I can sense that in you. Feel free to telegram my nation sometime.

I'd also like to note that I am very decidedly not the one screaming here, although I admit it became tempting when you starting mocking what I went through several years ago. Please, dear child, if you're ever sexually assaulted, abandoned by your entire family, diagnosed with a serious, possibly incurable illness which is likely to prevent you from ever having children, and stranded in a strange city with no friends, no source of income, and no support system whatsoever - except, of course, for your boyfriend, who's taken to beating the crap out of you, calling you a "worthless whore," and encouraging his friends to do likewise, and who has threatened to hurt you worse if you ever try to escape him, all within the same month, come talk to me about how pathetic, cowardly, and stupid I was to consider suicide. In the meantime, I'll thank you to keep your inane and ignorant judgments to yourself.
It may make me a bad person to say this (well, I already am a fucking asshole, so it doesn't really matter, I guess): Get off your high horse. Just because you had it worse for a month does not mean that you are any better than I am, or any better than GPN is. The fact that you allowed yourself to be abused by your boyfriend doesn't give you the right to condescend, it only means we live in a dog eat dog world, and he had bigger teeth than you did. You could have gone to the police, or you could have shot him. Why didn't you? Same for sexual assault. Was there something preventing you from kneeing the sick fucker who raped you in the groin, or gouging his eye out?

Also, "no income, no friends", my ass. If you live in a city and can't make friends, then there is probably something wrong with your personality. And anyone here can make an income: it's called the drug trade. You could have, and should have, sold marijuana or crack or whatever, if things were that desperate.

If you hate me for saying these things, I understand, but I wholeheartedly stand behind what I said.

6/10 checked. Mind you, some of the above mini-tragedies are female-specific, and some of mine aren't listed. If you will permit me to join you on your high horse (or is it a low horse?) would you like to explain how suicide isn't any of the things I listed and gave reasons for? Or would you like to continue telling me about the greek tragedy that was your life, and assert that no-one has ever experienced a relatable tragedy to contend your feelings on an issue only semi-related to the topic at hand?

Actually, I don't believe any of my experiences were female-specific per se, though some are certainly more common experiences for females than males.

I have most certainly never asserted that no one has experienced similar problems to mine. I don't believe that you personally have, or that any of the naive people on this thread blathering about how absolutely all problems have solutions have. I'm sure there exist many people whose lives have involved more suffering than mine, but I'm also sure those people have learned from that experience at least enough not to make inane generalizations about how suicide is "lazy," "cowardly," or "stupid."

I see above that you've had an acquaintance commit suicide recently. I'm sorry to hear that, and for that reason I'm trying to be polite to you even though you continue to be quite impressively offensive. I would appreciate it greatly, though, if you would stop making cracks about "the Greek tragedy that was my life" and so forth, as I'm still recovering from what that time did to me, and mocking the sort of shit I went through is entirely despicable. I don't want anyone's pity, least of all yours, but I felt it worthwhile to present you with a real situation that could drive one to suicide, and that's the real situation I happen to know of offhand.

As I stated previously, there is a certain measure of selfishness involved if the person committing suicide is hurting others by doing so. There are certainly situations where this is not the case - in my own situation, I probably would have made a few friends whom I rarely talked to and never saw somewhat sad. I probably would have made my parents, whom I had not spoken to in about a year, by their own decision, somewhat sad, and possibly a little guilty. I did not consider several people's "somewhat sad" to outweigh my own "absolutely miserable." One could argue that this was slightly selfish of me, but I find it hard to conceive of any logical argument that would support anything more than "slightly." No one should be expected to disregard their own happiness entirely, and I see it as no more reasonable to expect someone to continue living simply because a few people would be a little bit happier that way than to expect someone to die simply because a few people would be a little bit happier that way.

However, I see no other logical argument for suicide being selfish. (Well, maybe the "all things are selfish" one, but once a description applies to absolutely everything, it's a useless description.) The "moral obligation to God and/or leftover sperm" argument is simply ridiculous. I'll assume you're nominally intelligent enough to realize that the latter portion of that is absurd, so I'll address the former. If I give you a present, that present belongs to you. I have no claim over it now; it is your property. If God gives you life, then that life belongs to you, as well, to use as you see fit. That's what "free will" means. Furthermore, one isn't obligated to feel grateful for something one doesn't want. If I give you a kind gift of a large bag of rotting excrement, you're allowed not to be thrilled about it. Is that "selfish"? Maybe, but who will fault you for it?

As for the lazy/cowardly sense, that is, to put it simply, horseshit. It is absurd and offensive to blame people for not having the resources to solve their problems in other ways. Suicide is neither lazy nor cowardly; it is quite simply an unconventional way out of an intolerable situation, generally used only when conventional routes are blocked. If you have an incurable illness, you can't cure it. If you're living in what one could call an "incurable" situation, you also can't cure it. There's nothing particularly "brave" about putting up with misery rather than attempting to escape that misery. There's simply something a lot more lucky about having the option to escape that misery in some way other than locking yourself in the garage with your car engine running.

Fair response. I have to go to work now. I would very much like to contuinue, though. I will post tonight, if the thread is still going. Anyway, I must be off goodbye.
P.S. I am terribly sorry if I devalued your life experiences. That was not my intention. I shall try to be more clear in attacking the act of suicide itself in future. Take care, and keep chugging along.

My husband's father committed suicide last month. He was 53, in a long term relationship, with family and friends. He lived in a little tiny town his whole life in a house his grandparents had bought, so everyone knew him.

It is a selfish thing to do. When he weighed his options no one else was important enough for him to keep that shotgun out of his mouth. No one else was worth waiting for. No one on the face of the planet was worth as much to him as himself.

I miss him, a great deal. We went to his funeral today, and we cried, and we remembered, and we wished it weren't true. There are big things happening in the near future that he's going to miss because he decided not to stay around. I loved him, but now he'll never get to meet my children, and that makes me angry.

I turned from suicide when I was younger because of this thought pattern. Abuse, family and other social problems, abandonment, hopelessness... but when push came to shove the thought of my brothers, my mom, my few friends made me put the bottles back in the cabinet. It's not a cowardly thing to do, but there's not a more self-centered decision that anyone could make. Ever.

I still fight my depression because I realized that. Bipolar, chronic depression, on top of the normal stress of everyday life as an immigrant... it's not easy, but there will never be another suicidal thought through my brain because there are people worth living for, even if that person isn't always me.
Remember something: No matter what he did, your father loved you more than anything else, and if it weren't for you, he probably would have killed himself much sooner. You were the single best thing to ever happen to him.
I don't know why your father killed himself, but it wasn't because of you, and he would have loved to see your kids, and he misses you, wherever he is.

But sometimes, suicide is not a selfish thought. Sometimes, there are people like me, who make the lives of those around them worse, just by living. And there are times when people like me just want to die, to stop hurting the people they love.

I hope you get through the sadness of his death, and I hope you can forgive him for leaving you.

You could have gone to the police, or you could have shot him.

What The Fuck...Are You Some Kind Of Crazy Person??

What The Fuck...
What? I think it's only fair that you should kill those who are victimizing you. It does a service to yourself and others, by preventing the victimizer from hurting others.

I'm a proponent for taking an eye for an eye.

"What? I think it's only fair that you should kill those who are victimizing you. It does a service to yourself and others, by preventing the victimizer from hurting others.

I'm a proponent for taking an eye for an eye."

This is an outside guess . . but are you 50 cent?? Or currently living in the hood with your "home-es"!??

:sniper: "Lets bust a cap in his ass"

"What? I think it's only fair that you should kill those who are victimizing you. It does a service to yourself and others, by preventing the victimizer from hurting others.

I'm a proponent for taking an eye for an eye."

This is an outside guess . . but are you 50 cent?? Or currently living in the hood with your "home-es"!??

:sniper: "Lets bust a cap in his ass"
No, I'm a whiteboy.
I currently live in a suburb, and I haven't had homies for a while.
Why, is that one of his lyrics? Or, was I acting stereotypically "gangsta"?

'Cause I wasn't trying to be.

if a person wants to comit suicide, its not selfish, far from it. it is, in my opinion, their choice and they should have the chance to chose their way out of this hell we call life

I'm a proponent for taking an eye for an eye.

I dont know if u ever heard this but Gandhi said "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

If u propose killing the person who is tormenting you then u are no better than them

It may make me a bad person to say this (well, I already am a fucking asshole, so it doesn't really matter, I guess): Get off your high horse. Just because you had it worse for a month does not mean that you are any better than I am, or any better than GPN is. The fact that you allowed yourself to be abused by your boyfriend doesn't give you the right to condescend, it only means we live in a dog eat dog world, and he had bigger teeth than you did. You could have gone to the police, or you could have shot him. Why didn't you? Same for sexual assault. Was there something preventing you from kneeing the sick fucker who raped you in the groin, or gouging his eye out?

Also, "no income, no friends", my ass. If you live in a city and can't make friends, then there is probably something wrong with your personality. And anyone here can make an income: it's called the drug trade. You could have, and should have, sold marijuana or crack or whatever, if things were that desperate.

If you hate me for saying these things, I understand, but I wholeheartedly stand behind what I said.

He calls me stupid, lazy, cowardly, and all sorts of other foul names, and I'm condescending? Riiiight. :rolleyes:

I've never said that my experiences made me "better" than anyone else, or anything resembling that. All I've said is that people who haven't endured the sort of situation that drives one to suicide should not make idiotic blanket judgments about anyone who considers suicide, and I stand behind that statement.

As for your idiot comments about how I OBVIOUSLY could have avoided being abused and assaulted, and that I didn't have friends nearby because "there's something wrong with me" and so forth - I don't know why I'm even bothering to justify myself to you, but I didn't have an income because I was a full-time student, on a scholarship. I had no spare time whatsoever for a job, and breaking the law didn't exactly seem like a valid option, anyway. Which is also why I didn't shoot people, besides that whole "I'm a decent human being, and not a complete lunatic" thing. I didn't have friends nearby because, as I already mentioned, the people with whom I had been friends for years were several states away from the city where I had moved to be with my boyfriend before he turned abusive, and I had no spare time for going to meet new people. I had no close friends at school because I was largely in classes with people nowhere near my own age, and because I'd only been attending that school for a few months.

As for the assault and abuse, all I really want to say there can be summed up in a pair of words that rhyme with "luck boo." I am trying very hard to refrain from wishing you'd find yourself in a similar situation and see what it feels like to be told it's your fault. No one deserves that, and I'm sure you're just an ignorant ass who doesn't know better than to say things like that, but it's hard not to want to see you learn from bitter experience...

"No, I'm a whiteboy.
I currently live in a suburb, and I haven't had homies for a while.
Why, is that one of his lyrics? Or, was I acting stereotypically "gangsta"?

'Cause I wasn't trying to be."


I think it might have been the idea of shooting your enemies that brought out that comment, not that he was suggesting only gangsters shoot people, Pope John Paul II had Richard Nixon rolled in a carpet and put in the mississippi.....

I dont know if u ever heard this but Gandhi said "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

If u propose killing the person who is tormenting you then u are no better than them
Let me fill you in on something: I'm a bad person. I'm not likeable, and most people, in fact, hate me, and rightly so. I am, simply, one of the worst people you will ever meet. If a person steals your car, or your wallet, they probably needed the money, and I am still worse than them, even if I don't touch a hair on your head.

I used to believe that Gandhi quote, but I realised something: People don't deserve kindness. Gandhi, Jesus Christ, and Mother Teresa are some of the only people who have ever deserved to be happy, EVER. And all of them suffered. Why? Because of other people. Therefore, humanity, as a whole, should just piss off and die, horribly. Understand?

You're an asshole.

My stepfather was physically and verbally abusive to me. He lied to me, he stole from me, he threatened to kill me on multiple occasions. So, at the age of 14, I attempted suicide. It was the HARDEST DECISION OF MY LIFE. And until you have been in a situation like that, until you have known the incomprehensible amount of suffering that a person must endure before becoming suicidal, you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to tell people what is "cowardice" and what isn't. For you to pass judgement on a group of people who you don't even know, and who suffer far more than you ever will, makes you the most arrogant shithead in the whole fucking universe.

So shut the fuck up until you know what the fuck you're talking about.

Well, let me put it this way: I have been in a situation like that, and I did attempt suicide, and guess what? I still agree with the man. It's the coward's way out.

Fair response. I have to go to work now. I would very much like to contuinue, though. I will post tonight, if the thread is still going. Anyway, I must be off goodbye.
P.S. I am terribly sorry if I devalued your life experiences. That was not my intention. I shall try to be more clear in attacking the act of suicide itself in future. Take care, and keep chugging along.

I appreciate the apology. And I can respect not liking the damage suicide can often do to those who go on living - it's not like I'm a big fan, myself. I doubt anyone is. It's simply that when someone's put into a position where they're seriously considering suicide, they're deciding between two really horrible options, both of which probably involve some people being unhappy, and it seems to me that the determination of which option is more horrible has to be done on a case-by-case basis, and with at least the input of the person actually responsible for making that decision.

I once sat through the entire serious of The Golden Girls and The one with Raymond and his fucked up existance . . . and did I try and top myself ? ? ? NO!!! I even saw the directors cut limited edition with commentary.

But not everyones like me . . . BIG BALLS!

Like I always say . . . Cabbage does, what cabbage is!!

But I do have a mental issue . . . .

Love and kisses

xx

If u propose killing the person who is tormenting you then u are no better than them

That's a terrible argument.

Sure I am. He started it; I had cause.

I once sat through the entire serious of The Golden Girls and The one with Raymond and his fucked up existance . . . and did I try and top myself ? ? ? NO!!! I even saw the directors cut limited edition with commentary.

But not everyones like me . . . BIG BALLS!

Like I always say . . . Cabbage does, what cabbage is!!

But I do have a mental issue . . . .

Love and kisses

xx

Tourette's Syndrome? Harsh...

Is it selfish? I don't think so but it came up in conversation the other day and I'd like to hear/read what you think about it.

Maybe, but does it matter?

He calls me stupid, lazy, cowardly, and all sorts of other foul names, and I'm condescending? Riiiight. :rolleyes:

I've never said that my experiences made me "better" than anyone else, or anything resembling that. All I've said is that people who haven't endured the sort of situation that drives one to suicide should not make idiotic blanket judgments about anyone who considers suicide, and I stand behind that statement.

As for your idiot comments about how I OBVIOUSLY could have avoided being abused and assaulted, and that I didn't have friends nearby because "there's something wrong with me" and so forth - I don't know why I'm even bothering to justify myself to you, but I didn't have an income because I was a full-time student, on a scholarship. I had no spare time whatsoever for a job, and breaking the law didn't exactly seem like a valid option, anyway. Which is also why I didn't shoot people, besides that whole "I'm a decent human being, and not a complete lunatic" thing. I didn't have friends nearby because, as I already mentioned, the people with whom I had been friends for years were several states away from the city where I had moved to be with my boyfriend before he turned abusive, and I had no spare time for going to meet new people. I had no close friends at school because I was largely in classes with people nowhere near my own age, and because I'd only been attending that school for a few months.

As for the assault and abuse, all I really want to say there can be summed up in a pair of words that rhyme with "luck boo." I am trying very hard to refrain from wishing you'd find yourself in a similar situation and see what it feels like to be told it's your fault. No one deserves that, and I'm sure you're just an ignorant ass who doesn't know better than to say things like that, but it's hard not to want to see you learn from bitter experience...
Ironic, that I at no point called you either stupid, cowardly, or lazy. I called you weak. And I'm not being condescending, I'm weak too, everyone is, because there's always someone with bigger teeth, and someday soon, I'll get what's coming to me, too.

What GPN said was driven by the fact that he doesn't really want people to kill themselves, and what he said was idiotic at all, it was just a different opinion.

And decent people have shot others, for many reasons. Is a WWII veteran a "complete lunatic", because he shot a Nazi that was attacking him? No. Is a person who rebels against his country, that is abusing him, a complete lunatic? No. Neither would you have, if you had shot or harmed the men who had attacked you. Rapists and abusers of women deserve death, and it is as simple as that.

Just because someone is nowhere near your age doesn't mean you can't befriend them. I have friends that are ten years older than me, and ten years younger.

Finally, the last thing you said was offensive and plain incorrect. I never said you deserved to be raped, and I didn't mean it was your fault. It was ultimately the rapist's fault, but I find it hard to believe that events were totally out of your control.

As for wanting me, a bisexual male, to "find out for myself", I have only a Yakov Smirnoff quote in response: "Homosexuality is illegal in Russia. They lock you up in a cell with all the other homosexual men, and there is a three year waiting list for that."

I once saw a man who could eat a whole orange without chewing . . . Put that in your pipe and smoke it!!

Anyone seen my dog? ? ?

I once saw a man who could eat a whole orange without chewing . . . Put that in your pipe and smoke it!!

Anyone seen my dog? ? ?
...Okay, what the hell is THAT supposed to mean?

Well,

If you want me to put an element of sanity to it (not my style really) . . maybe I mean . .

Suicide is an issue so BIG that to judge it as one issue is difficult surely, every suicidal state is individual and its separate parts / conditions (stay with me here sports fans) unique and need to looked at as a fresh each time. Grouping suicide is just impossible... were all different and react differently . ..


So you cant swallow it whole . . need to look at the different pieces….


OR maybe I’m saying . . . I once saw a man who swallowed an entire Orange whole...

And I really cant find my dog . . .

Well,

If you want me to put an element of sanity to it (not my style really) . . maybe I mean . .

Suicide is an issue so BIG that to judge it as one issue is difficult surely, every suicidal state is individual and its separate parts / conditions (stay with me here sports fans) unique and need to looked at as a fresh each time. Grouping suicide is just impossible... were all different and react differently . ..


So you cant swallow it whole . . need to look at the different pieces….


OR maybe I’m saying . . . I once saw a man who swallowed an entire Orange whole...

And I really cant find my dog . . .
Nope, still don't get it.

Maybe one of us is just dumb.

Dont worry . . I was trying to blag some sense out of it ., . . . If id of pulled it off i'd of been well happy!!! Like a man whos just found his dog!

Laters aligators....

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Mother fuckerxxxxxxxxxxxx oppsss...

Ironic, that I at no point called you either stupid, cowardly, or lazy. I called you weak. And I'm not being condescending, I'm weak too, everyone is, because there's always someone with bigger teeth, and someday soon, I'll get what's coming to me, too.

What GPN said was driven by the fact that he doesn't really want people to kill themselves, and what he said was idiotic at all, it was just a different opinion.

And decent people have shot others, for many reasons. Is a WWII veteran a "complete lunatic", because he shot a Nazi that was attacking him? No. Is a person who rebels against his country, that is abusing him, a complete lunatic? No. Neither would you have, if you had shot or harmed the men who had attacked you. Rapists and abusers of women deserve death, and it is as simple as that.

Just because someone is nowhere near your age doesn't mean you can't befriend them. I have friends that are ten years older than me, and ten years younger.

Finally, the last thing you said was offensive and plain incorrect. I never said you deserved to be raped, and I didn't mean it was your fault. It was ultimately the rapist's fault, but I find it hard to believe that events were totally out of your control.

As for wanting me, a bisexual male, to "find out for myself", I have only a Yakov Smirnoff quote in response: "Homosexuality is illegal in Russia. They lock you up in a cell with all the other homosexual men, and there is a three year waiting list for that."

I didn't say you called me stupid or cowardly; I said GPN did. Check his first post, where he discusses how suicidal people are removing their worthless DNA from the gene pool. He wasn't exactly being polite and civil. I also don't want people to kill themselves (who on earth does?), but I don't paint everyone who might conceivably choose to do so with the same brush.

I would say shooting someone for abusing me would be crazy, if for no other reason than because I would go to jail, where my life would not exactly be fabulous, either. Abuse is not typically considered to justify murder - mitigate, perhaps, but not justify. I also don't happen to believe that boyfriend deserved to die. He's quite definitely a scumbag, but it's not my place to declare him unworthy of life, any more than it was his place to decalre me unworthy of basic human dignity.

And true, just because someone is nowhere near your age doesn't mean you can't befriend them, and I too have friends of vastly different ages - but it's definitely an obstacle. Depending on which part of my program I was in, I was largely either dealing with new freshmen, or people who were ten to fifteen years older than me and married with children. The former were largely (no offense to current freshmen) very immature and freshman-like, and thus perfectly reasonable to hang out with now and then, but not exactly people to have serious conversation with or treat as a support system; the latter largely had established lives and friendships and little interest in spending time with 20-something single women outside of class. (Also, as I mentioned, I really had basically no spare time, so my social interaction was by necessity almost entirely limited to having lunch with people, which doesn't exactly build deep and abiding friendships.)

I have no idea what Yakov Smirnoff has to do with anything. But, hey, whatever.

For the record, I don't actually wish chronic abuse on you. As I said, no one deserves that. You might try looking up accounts of people who've been abused on a regular basis, though, as it could give you a better understanding of why someone in that situation really does not believe that there is anything they can do to make it stop. It's not a matter of "letting" someone hurt you - it's a matter of feeling that, as the Borg would say, resistance is futile. You try to make it stop, and you fail, and you try again, and you fail, and eventually you come to believe that they're right, that you deserve it, and that there's absolutely nothing you can do to make it stop. You hate yourself so much you almost want him to hurt you, to punish you for being the sort of person who deserves to be called a stupid worthless whore. And when someone with this sort of mindset gets assaulted, can you really imagine them fighting back much?

*sigh* This isn't exactly a pleasant topic for me, and it's also irrelevant to the thread topic, so I think I'll leave it at that. This whole thread feels like ripping off scabs on wounds I really don't want to remember that I have...

...it's not like I'm a big fan, myself. I doubt anyone is.

In the past, I have described myself as a big fan of suicide. Choosing when you die is such a self-empowered act. Good for them.

In the past, I have described myself as a big fan of suicide. Choosing when you die is such a self-empowered act. Good for them.

Silly me. I forgot I was on NS General, where someone supports absolutely every position one could possibly imagine. :)

First, Poliwanacraca, I want to apologize for being a total asshole, but that is what I am. And, I thought you were saying that I called you cowardly, etc, because you quoted my post. But GPN called me that to, but I don't mind, because it's true.
As for shooting people, I'm assuming you live in America. Sexual and physical assault in America can be considered self defense. I just think it's the right thing to do because I'm a libertarian whack-job, and killing your abuser prevents them from hurting others.
I understand about the friendship part better now (and I really didn't mean to say you had a bad personality).
As for Yakov Smirnoff, well, my reference was kind of gross. It was about prison sex, which is just about the only time a man can really get sexually abused. I think you can connect the dots from there...
As for chronic abuse, I can understand what it feels like to throw yourself against a proverbial brick wall, and I used to take abuse lying down. But, I've gotten bigger, and more violent, so I'm not as easy to kick around anymore.

I apologize for being what I am

maybe I’m saying . . . I once saw a man who swallowed an entire Orange whole...

And I really cant find my dog . . .

I once saw Henry Kissenger take down the entire Blue Man Group using just his face.

You should ask Macgyver to find your dog, just send him some shoelaces and a slice of toast, I bet he can do it....

First, Poliwanacraca, I want to apologize for being a total asshole, but that is what I am. And, I thought you were saying that I called you cowardly, etc, because you quoted my post. But GPN called me that to, but I don't mind, because it's true.
As for shooting people, I'm assuming you live in America. Sexual and physical assault in America can be considered self defense. I just think it's the right thing to do because I'm a libertarian whack-job, and killing your abuser prevents them from hurting others.
I understand about the friendship part better now (and I really didn't mean to say you had a bad personality).
As for Yakov Smirnoff, well, my reference was kind of gross. It was about prison sex, which is just about the only time a man can really get sexually abused. I think you can connect the dots from there...
As for chronic abuse, I can understand what it feels like to throw yourself against a proverbial brick wall, and I used to take abuse lying down. But, I've gotten bigger, and more violent, so I'm not as easy to kick around anymore.

I apologize for being what I am

Apology accepted, although I question why you're so attached to the title of "asshole." Being willing to apologize for misunderstandings is generally not a sign of assholishness, after all.

As far as shooting people (or, in fact, violence in general) goes, I very serously now look at situations from what I think of as a "WWBND?" perspective - which is short for "What Would B. (my abusive ex) NOT Do?" Since I consider him to be about as rotten a human being as any I've met, I figure as long as I'm striving to be as different from him as possible, I'm bound to end up being a reasonably good person. He would, obviously, hurt people if it was advantageous for him. So I don't, ever, if I can possibly help it.

The Yakov Smirnoff reference makes a bit more sense now, and I definitely suggest you not go to Russia and/or end up in prison. ;)

I'm also harder to push around now than I was a few years ago, though unfortunately not in a physical sense. (There's only so much you can do when you weigh about 100 pounds and are terribly uncoordinated.) But at least nowadays if someone called me a worthless whore, I'd be far more likely to tell them to go to hell than to curl up in a corner and pop sleeping pills. It's a good start.

Apology accepted, although I question why you're so attached to the title of "asshole." Being willing to apologize for misunderstandings is generally not a sign of assholishness, after all.

As far as shooting people (or, in fact, violence in general) goes, I very serously now look at situations from what I think of as a "WWBND?" perspective - which is short for "What Would B. (my abusive ex) NOT Do?" Since I consider him to be about as rotten a human being as any I've met, I figure as long as I'm striving to be as different from him as possible, I'm bound to end up being a reasonably good person. He would, obviously, hurt people if it was advantageous for him. So I don't, ever, if I can possibly help it.

The Yakov Smirnoff reference makes a bit more sense now, and I definitely suggest you not go to Russia and/or end up in prison. ;)

I'm also harder to push around now than I was a few years ago, though unfortunately not in a physical sense. (There's only so much you can do when you weigh about 100 pounds and are terribly uncoordinated.) But at least nowadays if someone called me a worthless whore, I'd be far more likely to tell them to go to hell than to curl up in a corner and pop sleeping pills. It's a good start.
I call myself an asshole, because, frankly, I am one. Simple as that. Some people will tell you otherwise, but they don't really know what goes on inside my head.

As for violence, well... I happen to like fighting. Even if I get my ass kicked, it's still euphoric. And, anyway, I think fighting someone just as strong or stronger and kicking the crap out of your 100 pound girlfriend are a moral world apart.

And, anyway, I think fighting someone just as strong or stronger and kicking the crap out of your 100 pound girlfriend are a moral world apart.

Oh, totally agreed on that one. They're just still both on the "not okay" side of the scale for me. Similarly, I would neither steal a pack of chewing gum from a store nor rob nuns at gunpoint, but I'd find one a great deal more morally reprehensible than the other. Both are still bad, but one is a whole heckuva lot worse.

Silly me. I forgot I was on NS General, where someone supports absolutely every position one could possibly imagine. :)

hehe. Thanks for the laugh.

hehe. Thanks for the laugh.

Happy to oblige. :D

It's not that life's not ever going to improve. That's not the point. It's that it's such utter hell right now that what might be in a year, or decade, all your future possibilities, every single one of your tomorrows, is a SMALL price to pay to not have to live through tonight. And even if you live through that sort of hell, it's going to color every bit of your life ever after. What kind of emotional and developmental damage are those years between 14 and 22 going to do, on top of the damage already done getting to 14 in the first place? Sometimes people, especially minors, are in situations where the only choices are live in hell or end it all. Call social services and if a case worker even comes out, odds are high they'll leave shortly after, leaving you there with an abuser who is now actively angry with you rather than just using you as an idle target out of boredom. Can't run away, the state just keeps bringing you back, and again, now you're not just a thing to idly abuse, you're someone who went against your abuser.
If your childhood was such that you didn't experience such a thing, then count yourself lucky. But don't judge someone who suffered something you didn't. Don't judge someone who made an impossible choice in an unimaginably horrible situation.

Quoted for truthery.

From my website (http://www.freewebs.com/understandingdepression/suicideselfharm.htm):

Some people would argue that people who commit suicide are selfish. Selfishness is to do something for your benefit and your benefit only. Suicide, in the eye of the depressed person, is not for their benefit and their benefit only. Sometimes it is a mixture of helping themselves and helping others. Sometimes the main reason for suicide is to protect loved ones.

Depression will make a person truly believe that people they care about will be better off without them. Depression will provide a person with examples of ways they've harmed other people and had bad effects on other people's lives. Depression is such a powerful force that it will convince a person that suicide is the best answer, not necessarily for themselves but for the people they care about.

A part of them may argue, when thinking of suicide, that it would cause pain and suffering to their loved ones instead of helping. However, depression will turn this thought against the person, making them question themselves and making them feel that they're being selfish and arrogant to believe that anyone could miss or care about them. Also, while that voice of reason is there at the start, depressive thoughts grow stronger and stronger until they are the only thoughts. When someone gets to that point, the objection of "but it will cause so much pain" no longer exists in their head and the only things left all support the action of suicide.

However much pain suicide does indeed cause, it is very rare that a person who commits suicide intends to cause this pain. In the vast vast majority of cases they believe they will be helping the people they care about.

----

Some people would argue that it is attention-seeking. This has never made sense to me. How exactly are they going to get any rewards of this attention when they're dead? Films can give the impression of this kind of suicide - but they are are films.

Also, you have to ask yourself what exactly is wrong with "attention-seeking" in this situation? For a depressed person I would advise that the best thing they can do is to seek attention to help them overcome the illness they are battling. If anyone is justified in wanting attention, someone suffering from depression is. Most of the people who judge suicide would say that sufferers of depression should get help instead of commiting suicide, in which case they are also reccomending they seek attention.

Most people with depression actually hide away from attention and will do everything they can to hide the fact that they have depression, partly for their own supposed benefit and partly because they don't want to burden others. Depression is anything but an attention-seeking illness when it generally consists of a person hiding their incredible suffering and therefore, in most cases, worsening it.

----

Some people would argue that someone who commits suicide is weak. I'll agree that it's the easy way out. That's the whole point of suicide: taking the easy option of death rather than the hard option of life. But that doesn't necessarily make it weak. People take the easy options all the time.

It isn't a sign of weakness. It is not simply a matter of will-power. If someone were to drop bricks on your shoulders, however much willpower or strength you had, eventually you'd fall to the ground. Depression is like this and when it becomes overwhelming enough, suicide is the result.

Getting other illnesses isn't seen as weak. Dying from other illnesses isn't seen as weak. Suicide is not the result of weakness. Suicide is the result of an illness. There has in fact been research to show that depression cuts off the chemicals in your brain that go to the area where your basic instinct to survive is.

-----

People get judged by others for not having "good enough" reasons to commit suicide. The fact they have depression is the reason. Their illness is the reason. Just like cancer is the reason people with cancer die. Someone who commits suicide because of depression isn't capable of seeing that things may get better, that they will cause pain, that they can get rid of depression, that they're able to change and they are not capable of weighing up the logical reasons for and against suicide. In a scenario such as this, when truly believing all that a suicidal person does, it almost seems the logical thing to do.

----

Of course, statistically, some people will be selfish, attention-seeking and/or have weak characters. But that is by no means a justification to immediatly judge all others who have considered or commited suicide.

----

Even if we were to say that suicide was selfish, attention-seeking and weak this would be an attack on the act. It should not be an attack on the person. When depressed, a person is not themselves. It is depression controlling their emotions, controlling their thoughts, controlling their behaviour and controlling their actions. The majority of things they say and do will not reflect their true character.

Suicide is not the answer. It is a bad decision, causes pain and wastes a life that has potential to change for the better. It is a permenant answer to a temporary problem. I want to do all that I can to make sure people don't have to reach the point where they're deciding whether to end their life. But depression does this. Depression controls the mind and means that someone cannot think logically or rationally in this situation. You should not be judging or criticising the character of a person when it is an illness which totally overrides the character that has caused suicide.

----

The fact is people are suicidal. People do commit suicide. Judging and criticising them does nothing; in fact it is detrimental and only suceeds in isolating people with depression, lowering their self-worth and pushing them towards suicide even more. Trust me: suicidal people very likely already believe they are weak and already hate themselves for their supposed selfishness and attention-seeking nature. Unsurprisingly, believing these things about themselves makes them more suicidal. So if you think that saying these things will shock a person into changing their mind, you're almost definitely wrong.

Suicide is a terrible thing. If you're truly opposed to it, you'll stop increasing the likelihood of it.

Thank you for that, Glitziness. However, I have a question. May I repost that somewhere with a link and credit to your website, or must I only use the link to direct people there to see it?

Surmounting the intolerable cruelty of such a situation would undoubtedly produce a person of extreme mettle.

If by "mettle" you mean "recurring nightmares", then yes.

That is the biggest problem.....the desire to blame others for THEIR way of life. Many have made bad choices but want to blame their mistakes on others.

And then there are people whose lives actually DO suck because of the people around them. Please remove your head from your ass before speaking.

Suicide is the most idiotic, selfish (just like everything else we do), cowardly, COWARDLY, pathetic, peice-of-crap decision one could make. I emphasize on the stupidity and cowardliness. It's just f*cking dumb. Even in the deepest depths of my depression, suicide was never an option. It offers no solution. Maybe it is because I'm atheist, but non-existence is a hell of a lot worse than a shit one. I cannot get over the immense stupidity of all of the f*ckwits who take their own lives. Yes they are selfish, but to a greater extent they are just nieve, foolish, and possibly not worthy of life in any case. No problem is so bad that nonexistence is a better alternative. I beleive that those that commit suicide get exactly what they deserve, (or at least what they asked for), an eternity of nothing. The thing that shits me most about suicide is that the finality of it circumvents any realisation/regret from those who took that path of their monumental f*ck-up. The only consolation tht I can think of is that these imbiciles are cleansing their filthy DNA from the gene pool, and thus improving it all for the rest of us. Further, suicide most often occurs in youth, before they have bred. Maybe the ever-increasing suicide rate will be the counterbalance to the "all of the stupid people are breeding"-effect, thus keeping the human race intelligent.

This might make a slight amount of sense if not for the fact that suicides are, on average, more intelligent than the rest.

Well...yes. However, I would argue that I am not a victim to reactionary philosphy. I would be wrong, to an extent, but I would argue it nonetheless. Whilst an event of the kind did indeed happen quite recently, the opinions I hole, I held before the event. However, my stance was not as..passionate as it is now. Suicide used to bother me slightly for the aforementioned reasons, now it shits me intensely.

Well gee, maybe if you'd actually bothered to HELP THIS PERSON, they'd still be alive, hmmm?


I'd also like to note that I am very decidedly not the one screaming here, although I admit it became tempting when you starting mocking what I went through several years ago. Please, dear child, if you're ever sexually assaulted, abandoned by your entire family, diagnosed with a serious, possibly incurable illness which is likely to prevent you from ever having children, and stranded in a strange city with no friends, no source of income, and no support system whatsoever - except, of course, for your boyfriend, who's taken to beating the crap out of you, calling you a "worthless whore," and encouraging his friends to do likewise, and who has threatened to hurt you worse if you ever try to escape him, all within the same month, come talk to me about how pathetic, cowardly, and stupid I was to consider suicide. In the meantime, I'll thank you to keep your inane and ignorant judgments to yourself.

PWN3D.

I dont know if u ever heard this but Gandhi said "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

I'd rather live in a world where everyone is blind than one in which the good guys are blind and the bad guys aren't.

Well, let me put it this way: I have been in a situation like that, and I did attempt suicide, and guess what? I still agree with the man.

And you're still wrong.


As far as shooting people (or, in fact, violence in general) goes, I very serously now look at situations from what I think of as a "WWBND?" perspective - which is short for "What Would B. (my abusive ex) NOT Do?" Since I consider him to be about as rotten a human being as any I've met, I figure as long as I'm striving to be as different from him as possible, I'm bound to end up being a reasonably good person.

Adolf Hitler had a nose; that doesn't mean that we should all cut our noses off.

I'm also harder to push around now than I was a few years ago, though unfortunately not in a physical sense. (There's only so much you can do when you weigh about 100 pounds and are terribly uncoordinated.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47

Choice.

as far as suicide goes its really a personal choice that is up to each individual. There will be no single life that is exactly the same as anothers and people are always different so saying something is okay in one situation might be hell to someone in another. Would I rather people talk to others and try to deal with the problem yes but suicide is still an answer in the end.

And on the topic I remember a bash quote that I always remember when this type of conversation comes up.

<Neo-Tokyo> wouldnt you say suicide is a permenant solution to a temporary problem?
<`[6]> I'm a Buddhist, I'd say suicide is a temporary solution to a permanent problem.

I'm a Buddhist, I'd say suicide is a temporary solution to a permanent problem.

Hahaha, that's awesome.

Wow. I only asked if it was selfish. Now everyone is debating its merits and morals. I didn't ask if it was the cowards way out. I didn't ask about the why or the how. I asked for an inch and got miles. Some might call that the deal of a lifetime but all that tells me is that you can't toss in your two cents and walk away.

I'd tell you to get a life but you'd probably just start listing your character stats in some RPG.

I think it is

I'd tell you to get a life but you'd probably just start listing your character stats in some RPG.
Keep talking like that and my lvl 55 druid will totaly pwn u...

Not really. Hey, you picked an interesting topic, and one that is close to many people's hearts. You can't really control which way the discussion goes.
Adolf Hitler had a nose; that doesn't mean that we should all cut our noses off. Her principle of WWBND was based on actions, not physical characteristics. Let's hypothetically say that he was the worst person who ever lived (probably not true, but he seems to be a slimeball). If you do the opposite of the worst, you're likely to wind up somewhere near best.

Albert Camus said that suicide was the ultimate philosophical question, because it asked whether life was worth living and if so, why. But we can write him off for two reasons:
1) he was an existentialist, and they annoy me
2) Nobody who commits suicide does so because of philosophy.

:headbang: :mp5: :sniper: my freaking god people!!!! suicide is the most retarded thing ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! those who do it and attepmt it should be taken into conideration by the government to be helped and given better lives if they need it! and i stand stern on my reply!

*snip*

*applauds* Very well said.

I think it's an individual's choice, people can't tell others what to do with their body.

Suicide.. Sigh.

It isn't selfish. Sometimes people just honestly don't think there is any other way to stop the pain. I mean, it's not the greatest thing to do but I can understand why people do. In most cases it's not to draw attention to themselves or hurt other people. It is a genuine feeling of complete hopelessness(sp?).

I'd tell you to get a life but you'd probably just start listing your character stats in some RPG.

Dude, my WoW paladin has lots of life! In fact, her stamina stats are fantastic. I've got +7 enchants on every item one can put them on - she's only a level 45, but she's already got almost 3000 health unbuffed.

(Hey, you asked for it...) :p

From my website (http://www.freewebs.com/understandingdepression/suicideselfharm.htm): *snip*



That's a very well put-together site, Glitz. But haven't we tried this before? I very much fear your words will continue to fall mostly on deaf ears. As I said last time this topic was brought up, it's not that people can't understand depression, it's that many people don't want to bother understanding it.

:headbang: :mp5: :sniper: my freaking god people!!!! suicide is the most retarded thing ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! those who do it and attepmt it should be taken into conideration by the government to be helped and given better lives if they need it! and i stand stern on my reply!
Do you even stand stern on the spelling and grammar? Surely u kno tat no1 takes u serisly wen u dont capitalize or nething?

That's a very well put-together site, Glitz. But haven't we tried this before? I very much fear your words will continue to fall mostly on deaf ears. As I said last time this topic was brought up, it's not that people can't understand depression, it's that many people don't want to bother understanding it.

I think you're probably right, unfortunately. I've never really understood people's attitudes towards mental illness, and particularly mood disorders. No one I know would ever dream of telling someone with cancer that they're "weak" for not being able to get by without treatment, or for not being able to function physically as well as someone without cancer, but I can't count the number of times I've heard that I don't really need drugs, or therapy, or in fact anything but willpower to stop being affected by my bipolar II disorder. *sigh*

<snip>

Very well said Glitz. I could not have put it any better myself, and I doubt there are many that could.

You point about them attempting to protect their loved ones, or assuming they are better off is very well said. I once knew a man who heard voices, and had heard them since he was a very small child. He never told anyone, just left a recording to that effect the day that he committed suicide. The voices never told him to commit suicide, only to kill. He committed suicide to make sure that he never listened.

Try as though I might, I can't consider that cowardly or selfish, although it was foolish. Perhaps something could have been done for him; we'll never know. All I do know is this: if people spend too much time focusing on the problem, they will never see the solution. This is one of the things that can make a depressive person so dangerous to themselves is that the solutions seem lost in the fog, as it were. The problems overwhelm them until that's all they can see, floating adrift in a sea of fog.

I guess what I'm trying to say in a very roundabout way is that if you keep telling the depressed person that he's selfish or cowardly, that only focuses more on the problem - feeding the depression. You need to help the depressed person to start seeing solutions. Sometimes that takes medication. Sometimes it takes an adjustment in thinking. Sometimes it takes both.

Aaaand they just keep going. Screw you guys.

Aaaand they just keep going. Screw you guys.

If you wanted a yes/no answer to a simple question, you probably should have made a poll. You see, everyone knows someone who has committed suicide, and each person affected has an opinion on the subject. In most of our cases, it's a very long-winded opinion.

Well while I'm thinking so much of the subject I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I didn't ask to be born with clinical deprssion, nor at any point in my life, wish for it. Sure I can smile and pretend like all is well, which I've been doing for quite some time lest I harm those I love. But every morning I wake up slightly wishing I didn't, everytime I drive I just stare at the trees and try to imagine what my car would look like wrapped around it. Everytime I go to sleep I make my finger and thumb into a gun and put it below my chin.

I've led a very good life compared to a lot of kids. Captain and MVP of my football team, many friends, loving parents, excellent pets, and a decent income. Honestly I can still function in society for the rest of my life as a good contributor, minus being unable to get out of bed for weeks at a except for going to work and go on the computer.

The other day I started hearing and seeing things so I'm off to go get some help.

I'll sum it up into this: the pain from losing a loved one is temporary, the suffering of being born with depression is worse and everlasting. Like I said before; if I could be happy I would.

Well while I'm thinking so much of the subject I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I didn't ask to be born with clinical deprssion, nor at any point in my life, wish for it. Sure I can smile and pretend like all is well, which I've been doing for quite some time lest I harm those I love. But every morning I wake up slightly wishing I didn't, everytime I drive I just stare at the trees and try to imagine what my car would look like wrapped around it. Everytime I go to sleep I make my finger and thumb into a gun and put it below my chin.

I've led a very good life compared to a lot of kids. Captain and MVP of my football team, many friends, loving parents, excellent pets, and a decent income. Honestly I can still function in society for the rest of my life as a good contributor, minus being unable to get out of bed for weeks at a except for going to work and go on the computer.

The other day I started hearing and seeing things so I'm off to go get some help.

I'll sum it up into this: the pain from losing a loved one is temporary, the suffering of being born with depression is worse and everlasting. Like I said before; if I could be happy I would.

My girlfriend has clinical depression, sadly...

At the end of last month, a very dear and wonderful friend of mine hung himself, he was 35 years old and leaves behind a wife, a 9 year old son and a 6 month old daughter. nobody had any idea that he was contemplating such an act, he had a health scare that he blew out of proportion and didn't even wait for the results (which were clear) and this is the only explanation that we have. He was a lovely man, and I feel so terrible for his poor wife and children, for the two guys who found him hanging and also his parents. I know that myself and my children cared very much for him as a good and dear friend, and we feel badly enough, I can not comprehend how bad his family feel. The man who found him is now having counseling and so is his son...His funeral was attended by over 400 people and was a dreadfully moving and sad affair. I am sure that if he was looking down on things that have happened since he took this decision he would never do such a thing.

I loved him and think it is one of the most selfish things that anyone could do. People feel badly enough if you die because of an illness or an accident, but they can at least begin to come to terms with it...taking the decision to end your life leaves those around you to pick up the pieces of the life your act smashed and ruined. My friends wife is left with angry questions and a son who now thinks his father did not love him enough to stay with him and watch him grow up....I have nothing more to say than that.

:(

No one owes you their life.

Calling it selfish is unimaginably selfish in itself. Keeping someone around who is suffering so much just to keep your life stable. People will move on.

You need to help the depressed person to start seeing solutions. Sometimes that takes medication. Sometimes it takes an adjustment in thinking. Sometimes it takes both.
sometimes it takes simply some attention, someone to listen and care and NOT to judge (for a change), someone who understands and doesn't try and 'fix' you but lets you be and work your own way out of it, but supports and is there for you when you need them :)


i really can't tell you what that person did for me :fluffle:
i may not be totally over depression yet (as far as i can tell i've mostly got chemical imbalance or something now) but am 700% better than i was last year :)

Thank you for that, Glitziness. However, I have a question. May I repost that somewhere with a link and credit to your website, or must I only use the link to direct people there to see it?
Do whatever the hell you like with it. I didn't write it to get credit. I wrote it to make some attempt at explaining it, and maybe opening some people's eyes, while also helping people feeling suicidal to feel less alone and let them know that some people understand and care. The more people it reaches, the better :)

*applauds* Very well said.
Why thank you :)

That's a very well put-together site, Glitz. But haven't we tried this before? I very much fear your words will continue to fall mostly on deaf ears. As I said last time this topic was brought up, it's not that people can't understand depression, it's that many people don't want to bother understanding it.
Thanks. I know that most people will not want to understand, and most actually won't be able to understand - even though I've had depression, when I'm feeling okay, it's hard to totally capture what it's like in my head. But... I can't not try. If it helps one person understand what their friend is going through, or helps one husband be more supportive of their wife, or helps one depressed person feel less alone and confused about how they feel.... then all and any effort is worth it. I have had people change their minds about it, and knowing I've been able to do that even with just one or two people is wonderful.

I think you're probably right, unfortunately. I've never really understood people's attitudes towards mental illness, and particularly mood disorders. No one I know would ever dream of telling someone with cancer that they're "weak" for not being able to get by without treatment, or for not being able to function physically as well as someone without cancer, but I can't count the number of times I've heard that I don't really need drugs, or therapy, or in fact anything but willpower to stop being affected by my bipolar II disorder. *sigh*
It's not something that is really talked about, or shown in a realistic light, and if you haven't experienced it... well, it's not like anything else so I don't really expect understanding. A lot more could be done to try and make people aware of the reality of it though. So many people are totally ignorant towards it. Plus, films and books worsen perception of it alot - suicide is often shown as dramatic and often the idea of "it'll show them" is prevalent and I think that's mainly bullshit.
Hmm, my anger levels are rising so I think I'll stop ranting now :P

Very well said Glitz. I could not have put it any better myself, and I doubt there are many that could.

You point about them attempting to protect their loved ones, or assuming they are better off is very well said. I once knew a man who heard voices, and had heard them since he was a very small child. He never told anyone, just left a recording to that effect the day that he committed suicide. The voices never told him to commit suicide, only to kill. He committed suicide to make sure that he never listened.

Try as though I might, I can't consider that cowardly or selfish, although it was foolish. Perhaps something could have been done for him; we'll never know. All I do know is this: if people spend too much time focusing on the problem, they will never see the solution. This is one of the things that can make a depressive person so dangerous to themselves is that the solutions seem lost in the fog, as it were. The problems overwhelm them until that's all they can see, floating adrift in a sea of fog.

I guess what I'm trying to say in a very roundabout way is that if you keep telling the depressed person that he's selfish or cowardly, that only focuses more on the problem - feeding the depression. You need to help the depressed person to start seeing solutions. Sometimes that takes medication. Sometimes it takes an adjustment in thinking. Sometimes it takes both.
Thank you very much :)

And I definitly agree with focusing on the problem feeding the problem. One of my relapses into depression was based pretty much purely on that. I had one bad reaction to one event, and I was so annoyed at myself for letting it have that effect, I spiralled into a depression over self-hatred and feeling like a failure and a mess etc.... and, as those thoughts got worse, my depression did, and the thoughts seemed to become backed up.

sometimes it takes simply some attention, someone to listen and care and NOT to judge (for a change), someone who understands and doesn't try and 'fix' you but lets you be and work your own way out of it, but supports and is there for you when you need them :)


i really can't tell you what that person did for me :fluffle:
i may not be totally over depression yet (as far as i can tell i've mostly got chemical imbalance or something now) but am 700% better than i was last year :)
no words could ever come close to describing the feeling it gives me to read that and know i've been able to do that for you :) :fluffle: just.... so very glad we found each other and are together :) :fluffle:

Suicide occurs when the pain is greater than the coping mechanisms. Simply put, they were too weak to be able to cope with the pain, so they decided to kill themselves. Is it their fault that they weren't strong enough? If you think so, then yes, they were selfish.

I see most of these suicide-is-selfish people using arguments as "they should have taken it like a "real man" and just gone through it". Well, you don't understand, that coping that you're asking them to do... they've already reached the maximum. The pain is now higher than their coping abilities. So, they're doing what you're asking them to do, but they have finite power. Do not expect them to have coping power as strong as you or of infinite strenght.