NationStates Jolt Archive

There are people who feel that they were born into the wrong gender. We typically call them transexuals. Because of society's feelings about gender issues, some of them are forced to live in a constant shame of how they feel, while others end up living as the sex they feel, and sometimes even having it surgically changed.

Should transexuals be able to change their legal status? What safeguards should there be to assure that people getting Sex Reasignment Surgery arn't making a mistake? Should people just "live as their born?"

Meh, their money, their body, I don't care what they do.

There are people who feel that they were born into the wrong gender. We typically call them transexuals. Because of society's feelings about gender issues, some of them are forced to live in a constant shame of how they feel, while others end up living as the sex they feel, and sometimes even having it surgically changed.

Should transexuals be able to change their legal status? What safeguards should there be to assure that people getting Sex Reasignment Surgery arn't making a mistake? Should people just "live as their born?"

I'd like to see someone get a Sex Reassignment Surgery by mistake.

Meh, their money, their body, I don't care what they do.
Agreed.

Another good question: should a transexual person have to disclose their birth gender to any sexual partners? even after surgery?


I'd like to see someone get a Sex Reassignment Surgery by mistake.
There is a 1% that express "regret" about it.

Transexuals should be able to change their legal status, but whatever else they do is nobody's business but their own. Perhaps society should stop assigning gender roles to everybody so perhaps they wouldn't feel so insecure about the way they were born.

I'd like to see someone get a Sex Reassignment Surgery by mistake.

Sex Reassignment Surgery?

Is that what they really call it now?

Sex Reassignment Surgery?

Is that what they really call it now?

That's what it's being called in the OP.

Sex Reassignment Surgery?

Is that what they really call it now?
yes. What should they call it? "Slap a vagina on him surgery"

Another good question: should a transexual person have to disclose their birth gender to any sexual partners? even after surgery?


There is a 1% that express "regret" about it.

No. Gov has no place in the bedroom if everyone there consented.

*laughs*

That's what it's being called in the OP.

That is hilarious!

yes. What should they call it? "Slap a vagina on him surgery"

Used to be called a Sex Change Operation. Which sounds more accurate and less PC-crap-ish.

Another good question: should a transexual person have to disclose their birth gender to any sexual partners? even after surgery?I'd say 'yes' to this, if the sexual partner is likely to be a long-term romantic lover - but that's only really because I think couples should discuss and share their experiences as part of getting to know each other, and having a duty to know each other as well as they can. However, if it's only casual sex, I don't suppose it's going to be that big a deal.

In relation to the other questions, it's their choice entirely. I suppose people in the situation shouldn't rush into a gender reassignment, but I very much doubt many of them do anyway.

I want to be an elephant, but I'm not. It sucks, but that's just the way the dice are rolled. Grafting a trunk onto your face is just about as assinine as grafting a penis onto yourself, in my opinion.

But, my opinion is just my own and in then end I don't give a rat's ass. Be a dude or chick, whatever. It's pretty much the same as being gay, being a scat-lover or being a emo-fan. As long as you don't talk about it while I'm eating, I'll probably just laugh at you and shake my head.

However, I think people definately SHOULD have to say,'Hey... Before we get down to cocks and cunts, I just want you to know that I was born a man. You're about to have sex with my inside-out penis. Mmm." I think that is more common courtesy than anything, but it would also avoid the whole 'crack your muffuckin' wig open with a brick for making me think you were a woman' scenario.

That is deceitful at best, though malign and twisted would be the words I would use. Let a nigga know.

Used to be called a Sex Change Operation. Which sounds more accurate and less PC-crap-ish.

The names of medical procedures change to better fit newer information. It's not "PC-crap-ish", it's called progress. Don't fear it.

That is deceitful at best, though malign and twisted would be the words I would use. Let a nigga know.

Wow .... that was .... geeze.

I'm sorry the world doesn't fit your narrow view. I wish you luck.

Another good question: should a transexual person have to disclose their birth gender to any sexual partners? even after surgery?

Well if you were born biologically a man, but physically a woman, then you should never have to say "I used to be a chick" ... because you weren't.

A penis does not make a man.

I want to be an elephant, but I'm not. It sucks, but that's just the way the dice are rolled. Grafting a trunk onto your face is just about as assinine as grafting a penis onto yourself, in my opinion.

But, my opinion is just my own and in then end I don't give a rat's ass. Be a dude or chick, whatever. It's pretty much the same as being gay, being a scat-lover or being a emo-fan. As long as you don't talk about it while I'm eating, I'll probably just laugh at you and shake my head.

However, I think people definately SHOULD have to say,'Hey... Before we get down to cocks and cunts, I just want you to know that I was born a man. You're about to have sex with my inside-out penis. Mmm." I think that is more common courtesy than anything, but it would also avoid the whole 'crack your muffuckin' wig open with a brick for making me think you were a woman' scenario.

That is deceitful at best, though malign and twisted would be the words I would use. Let a nigga know.

...

There just don't seem to be the right amount of words to express my disgust at that.

I want to be an elephant, but I'm not. It sucks, but that's just the way the dice are rolled. Grafting a trunk onto your face is just about as assinine as grafting a penis onto yourself, in my opinion.


Want has nothing to do with it. You weren't born an elephant on an inside, and I'd say it's physically impossible to be born an elephant on the inside, because then you'd have to have elephant thought patterns which I'd assume the human brain is incapable of imitating.

I want to be an elephant, but I'm not. It sucks, but that's just the way the dice are rolled. Grafting a trunk onto your face is just about as assinine as grafting a penis onto yourself, in my opinion.

But, my opinion is just my own and in then end I don't give a rat's ass. Be a dude or chick, whatever. It's pretty much the same as being gay, being a scat-lover or being a emo-fan. As long as you don't talk about it while I'm eating, I'll probably just laugh at you and shake my head.



:headbang: If only i was god. then i could express my disgust and loss of faith in humanity caused by such unempathetic and plain idiotic comments by shrinking the universe back to a single point and starting again. ARRRGGGHHH!

I'd like to see someone get a Sex Reassignment Surgery by mistake.

It's kind of hard. If I remember right, they make you live as the gender for awhile before having the surgery.....

The names of medical procedures change to better fit newer information. It's not "PC-crap-ish", it's called progress. Don't fear it.

:rolleyes: Yes, but "reassignment" doesn't fit any newer information better than "change".

It's kind of hard. If I remember right, they make you live as the gender for awhile before having the surgery.....

Exactly! Thank you!

:rolleyes: Yes, but "reassignment" doesn't fit any newer information better than "change".

Actually, it does. "Change" implies that the person in question is switching genders when, in fact, they are not.

Once again: A penis doesn't make a man.

If a person is biologically, emotionally, and hormonally a woman, but experienced an aberration during fetal development that assigned them male genitalia, then surgeons can re-assign that genitalia. It's not a "change".

I'd like to see someone get a Sex Reassignment Surgery by mistake.

Hey, I went in for a check up..... I came out a man. Have some sympathey

Actually, it does. "Change" implies that the person in question is switching genders when, in fact, they are not.

Once again: A penis doesn't make a man.

If a person is biologically, emotionally, and hormonally a woman, but experienced an aberration during fetal development that assigned them male genitalia, then surgeons can re-assign that genitalia. It's not a "change".

No, because it is a SEX change operation, not a GENDER change operation. If the word was gender.... actually, I'd still be questioning the use of "reassignment" because it suggests that the person isn't the right gender in the first place, and that changing the sex is changing the gender. And the genitalia are changing.

Hey, I went in for a check up..... I came out a man. Have some sympathey

*laughs* :fluffle: for making me laugh while I'm somewhat sick.

No, because it is a SEX change operation, not a GENDER change operation. If the word was gender.... actually, I'd still be questioning the use of "reassignment" because it suggests that the person isn't the right gender in the first place, and that changing the sex is changing the gender. And the genitalia are changing.

Sex and Gender are not the same thing, you know.

Sex and Gender are not the same thing, you know.

That's precisely what I'm saying! Gah!

That's precisely what I'm saying! Gah!

Then you should know that sex can be reassigned, but not changed.

Then you should know that sex can be reassigned, but not changed.

....point, it can't be changed. Can't really be reassigned either, tho. We need a new name for it!

Then you should know that sex can be reassigned, but not changed.

I kind of see where Oxymoon is coming from. There isn't much different between have your sex reassigned and having your sex changed to match your gender.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with either term, they seem pretty synonymous. If that's a word.

....point, it can't be changed. Can't really be reassigned either, tho. We need a new name for it!

Well then let's come up with something and contact the AMA. Let's name it something fun!

[QUOTE=Cyrian space]Another good question: should a transexual person have to disclose their birth gender to any sexual partners? even after surgery?


They definitely shouldn't HAVE to. I mean, I think that if I had that sort of change in my life, it would be something that I would tell to a person I had a serious relationship with. But that's just me. It should be a personal decision, and not something the government needs to get involved with.

Well then let's come up with something and contact the AMA. Let's name it something fun!

It's a .... a ..... Keruvalian Operation! YES!!!!

Er... gender matching operation?

I kind of see where Oxymoon is coming from. There isn't much different between have your sex reassigned and having your sex changed to match your gender.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with either term, they seem pretty synonymous. If that's a word.

Synonymous is a word, no worries.

You can't change someone's gender. Unlike sexuality, there is a whole set of pretty damn obvious biological distinctions. You can pretend to "re-assign" their gender in the paperwork so you don't get a load of unsightly protests :rolleyes: but the moment they set foot in a hospital or have contact with police or judiciary, sorry, but true identity has to be established. There are inescapable practical limits to the extent to which society should share their denial.

And if they want cosmetic surgery, they should pay for it themselves. I can't believe some of the things taxpayers are asked to subsidise these days.

You can't change someone's gender. Unlike sexuality, there is a whole set of pretty damn obvious biological distinctions. You can pretend to "re-assign" their gender in the paperwork so you don't get a load of unsightly protests :rolleyes: but the moment they set foot in a hospital or have contact with police or judiciary, sorry, but true identity has to be established. There are inescapable practical limits to the extent to which society should share their denial.

And if they want cosmetic surgery, they should pay for it themselves. I can't believe some of the things taxpayers are asked to subsidise these days.

Gender isn't the same as sex. You can't change your gender, but you can change your physical sex.

They definitely shouldn't HAVE to. I mean, I think that if I had that sort of change in my life, it would be something that I would tell to a person I had a serious relationship with. But that's just me. It should be a personal decision, and not something the government needs to get involved with.

I agree they shouldn't have to in every single relationship but if it gets as far as marriage then their partner has a right to know but I can't see a relationship going that far without them realising

A penis does not make a man.
no.....but it makes a man more fun!

okay, on topic, I don't see why after having surgery they wouldn't be able to change thier gender identification with the government, also if they are biologically the opposite gender of what they appear, they should be able to idenitfy with thier biological gender should they choose..........

I don't think that made any sense.

Why exactly does the government register gender?

Why exactly does the government register gender?
so they can change it if you annoy them.

Why exactly does the government register gender?
The politicians get bored sometimes...hint, hint. :fluffle:

seriously tho,if a person wants to be a man(or is a man inside if you get my drift) when they are a physically a woman(or vice versa)they should be allowed to.
For goodness sake, if a person can get a breast op(because they are a large breasted woman in a small breasted womans body) then they should be allowed a gender reasignment op, if they feel they are a man/woman stuck in a woman/man's body.
They should tell prospective /actual partners, but to be fair if they dont notice, well then it doesnt really matter unless they want kids or something.
People cant just get an op on a whim, they have to learn to live like a woman/man first to see if its what they really want.If it turns out to be right for them, then go for it!be happy!

Should transexuals be able to change their legal status? What safeguards should there be to assure that people getting Sex Reasignment Surgery arn't making a mistake? Should people just "live as their born?"

My 2 kopeks :)

(1) Change in legal gender ? Of course. Many countries and states allow this and the sky hasn't fallen in. The point is that there has to be some point at which the State accepts evidence and certifies that "yes, this is a real issue for them , and yes you are obliged to a certain minimum of respect for that issue." (regarding the rest of society)

Basically, if you don't allow this, you totally undercut the validity of including gender status as a basis for anti-discrimination laws in the various human right's codes.

Put another way, why shouldn't you ? If biology is what you're going by, after hormone therapy everything but the bones for soft tissue is the same as in the experienced gender; once the genitals have been reshaped or (as some accept as a half measure better than none, removed) there is nothing in them that is their natal sex except their bones and bone marrow. (the brain is unaffected, but the whole biological theory of the disorder is that the brain _starts out_ with a sexual biology different from that of the rest of the body. This is not a proven theory, but it has a growing body of supporting evidence)

And if you're going by _psychological_ critera, because the differences in behaviour _within_ each gender are far greater than the differences _between_ the genders....it is almost impossible to find someone who is definitely "beyond the pale" of the gender they identify with.

So either way, "facts on the grounds" demand such recognition once the status quo of transition is stable (at the three year point, see below).

(2) Protections against "the wrong choice" : If they are doing it on their own dime, none but the ethics of their psychotherapist and surgeon. The State has no say in how private individuals spend their money, especially since even tenuous things like the use of emergency services _decline_ (and drastically so) as the _average_ outcome of surgery.

If you couldn't guess, I hate the Spanner Judgement more than almost any other legal judgement in an industrialized nation which I am familiar with.

(Basically the bobbies in England broke up an extreme S&M party. Because things had happened like subs having had nails driven through their arm or something...the police charged the dominants with assault...basically citing as legal reasoning that "the State has the right to intervene to stop people from harming themselves, no matter their desire or consent."

This attitude is both so insulting to human dignity and wrong headed it belongs in another thread of its own to be properly refuted.)

If the State is paying, they have some right to seek proof that their investment in the mental health of their citizen will bear fruit. However, these measures should _also_ be applied with _equal_ rigor to all individual directed "life improvement grants" ie college loans, tax breaks for religious vocation (if they're a bad priest, then the state is subsidizing them for nothing), etc....which means (if they're being fair and cost effective) that they won't be giving anyone the third degree. (Unless they give everyone such treatment, which I doubt they would opt for.)

I would say that the major litmuses are to prove that
(a) their social functioning is no worse and preferably somewhat better

(b) depression (found in nearly all cases) remits somewhat with hormone therapy and living in their experienced gender and

(c) their occupational plans are firm and show tangible signs of being substainable (if they are still of working age) and successful (unless they were already disabled on grounds unrelated to depression, or if the depression is so bad that even substantial improvement still leaves them unfit to work)

A three year evaluation period is appropriate because the placebo effect (the ability of humans to psych themselves into getting a positive effect from thin air) wears out in the 6-24 month range (the latter figure being VERY pessimistic) so by three years you can be sure that their life in their experienced gender is stable (regarding the ability to weather the stresses of their course). However, longer than that is just dragging the State's feet and is unjustified.

However, the current restrictions on hormone therapy are dumb. Trying to stop "perverts who want to grow breasts" is not worth the grief involved, even assuming it was a valid goal. (which is hotly debatable as people carry out many fetishes in private which are considered "disgusting" or "unhealthy" and still live productive lives and meet their civic obligations. Singling out -any- of them that do not demonstrably breach consent is not substainable.)
The worst damage such "perverts" do themselves is generally transitory and of minimal financial consequence on the government. The damage done by _depriving_ people who need transition of this course is _permanent_ (see below).

Because it will take so long to reach maximum certainty about the value of the choice made....hormone therapy needs to be started as early as possible because every year with your natal hormone balance increases the sex-typing of your body. Some people get a placebo effect from taking hormones as well as from starting transition. So best get the clock ticking as soon as possible.

If it turns out the decision is bad, this is reversible....if the decision is good, they you have compromised the degree of physical changes. The more physical change there is (towards a body identical to the experienced gender) is the _one_ solid correlation of factors that predict the greatest satisfaction and positive mental health effects with gender surgery and transition.

(3) Regarding "should they have to just live as they were born".....Why should they have to ? Do we expect people born with a harelip to decline to ask their medical plan (if they have one which can pay for it) to correct this ? What good is served by this ?

Even asking this question makes me wonder about your sentiments, because it implies that the "comfort level" of the community is a relevant factor in this decision. That would be a contravention of our deepest held ideas (legally speaking) about individual liberty.

No one forces someone to begin transition. If they are doing this, it is because they believe it will make their life better. The State has a say in whether or not to pay for surgery. (Or to pay for hormones, if consensus is that the change is really bad for them.) This is the pursuit of happiness at it's simplest. To even suggest that they should "give it a try" is like asking a gay male to date some more girls: essentially irrational and unreasonable and a sign of the stigma society attaches to the person with that condition.

Another good question: should a transexual person have to disclose their birth gender to any sexual partners? even after surgery?


There is a 1% that express "regret" about it.

A legal requirement ? That's absurd. If they're willign to take the risk of their status becoming apparent, on their own head be it. The State has no place in trying to impose honesty on people beyond contractual obligations.

Personal responsibility is what our society has gotten far to distant from. Laws like this would simply be one more brick in the wall keeping people from achieving full functional maturity...which includes the right to make mistakes, even ones that end up getting them killed.

As to the 1%...yes, that's correct. and such a low disatisfaction rate is unparalleled in psychology. It's significant, but trying to prevent people from this point is again trying to nanny them.

However, I suspect that rate could be at least halved if the psychiatric establishment embraced people who want to live socially as female and experience that as their gender but have no issues (or enjoy) having a penis. I know one case first hand where they were happy with transition right up until surgery and then they realized (too late) that they didn't really want the surgery....but as the gas is being applied is a bit too late, alas. This was shattering to their mental health...and could have been avoided if there was not such a stigma against "the in betweeners".

That's what it's [genital surgery] being called in the OP.

Maybe in your neck of the woods, up here it's gender reassignment surgery, and occasionally "gender confirmation surgery".

There are people who feel that they were born into the wrong gender. We typically call them transexuals. Because of society's feelings about gender issues, some of them are forced to live in a constant shame of how they feel, while others end up living as the sex they feel, and sometimes even having it surgically changed.

Should transexuals be able to change their legal status? What safeguards should there be to assure that people getting Sex Reasignment Surgery arn't making a mistake? Should people just "live as their born?"

To me, this is very sad. I had a professor that was a transsexual. I've done research on the subject as a result, and almost no one who undergoes such a surgery is happy.

Generally, people who feel their sex is wrong are just in general discontent with their lives, and see sex change as a cure-all. As we all know, it is not. Many wish they had never done it.

Should people be able to do it? I suppose so. Is it wise to do it in one's own life? Probably not.

My $0.02.

Another good question: should a transexual person have to disclose their birth gender to any sexual partners? even after surgery?


There is a 1% that express "regret" about it.

YES I WOULD HATE TO BE DOING A GUY UGH THATS COMPLETELY DISGUSTING I DONT CARE IF THEY HAVE A VAGINA. As long as they USED to have a penis, i want to avoid them. Even if they are like the hottest peron on earth and know how to sex people REALLY good... NO!

YES I WOULD HATE TO BE DOING A GUY UGH THATS COMPLETELY DISGUSTING I DONT CARE IF THEY HAVE A VAGINA. As long as they USED to have a penis, i want to avoid them. Even if they are like the hottest peron on earth and know how to sex people REALLY good... NO!
Well, that's you off my dance card, that's for sure.

YES I WOULD HATE TO BE DOING A GUY UGH THATS COMPLETELY DISGUSTING I DONT CARE IF THEY HAVE A VAGINA. As long as they USED to have a penis, i want to avoid them. Even if they are like the hottest peron on earth and know how to sex people REALLY good... NO!

Then you're in luck! Because unless you picked up a FtM transexual, the MtF post-op transexual isn't a guy in mind OR body, and never really was a guy in the way that counts. :D

Besides, if you can't tell the difference, what's the problem?

Though I'd feel sorry for any transexual who ended up dating a person as intolerant as you are. EDIT: Or non-transexual, even. I know I wouldn't want an intolerant boyfriend.

You can't change someone's gender. Unlike sexuality, there is a whole set of pretty damn obvious biological distinctions.


Your thinking is sloppy right from the get-go here.

There relevant and overlapping factors here

Gender: a mix of (a) self-image (b) your primary source of identification for adopting social behaviour (c) your reactions to the various differences (few but now scientifically established) between the sexes and how you behave in light of this (for example, if you accept or resist the communication style of women (which empahsizes rapport and consensus) or the male style (which empahsizes hierarchy and status)) (d) the style of social behaviour you default to

There are two poles and many people fall "in between". I know so many women and men alike who dislike some of the nuances of their own gender. his dislike is grounded in how their own feelings make them harder pressed to fit in with society and they resent this unwanted and uninvited conflict.

They also resent having been given lessons on "right and wrong" about gender behaviour which they disagree with intellectually but have to weather the fallout of having been brainswashed as children regarding.

Especially regarding expected public gender behaviours. They either grudgingly go along or resist it....and thus show that it's 'more or less' rather than 'either or'....the point of transition and surgery is to make life easier for people with the outcome they have arrived at. Because this outcome generally doesn't change

(thought the author of "Sexing the Body" suggested it may be one of many human behaviours that is fixed for most of the lifetime, but which has been observed to honestly change occasionally...she was speaking from the perspective of someone who never had a same sex attraction urge in her life (and had considered it) and had their whole perspective change in mid life for no rational reason.)

(the book is a survey of all research on sex and gender and basically concludes "trying to establish what is normal and healthy on this front is more likely to do harm than good.")

Sex: the physiological characteristics of the body by male or female, primary and secondary traits. These _can_ be changed on the whole. (bones are cosmetic more than functional as they do not affect the endocrine system or metabolism, the two main changes of hormone therapy).

Sexuality/orientation: who you want to f*ck, male or female wise. I describe it like this:

Think of it as analogous to a taste for fish or beef.

Some people like one, and will have nothing to do with the other if they can help it. [Exclusively gay or straight]

Some people are like this, but maybe once or twice in a lifetime, will be served a dish of their disliked food....and mistake it for the food they like and eat it enthusiastically. (like the woman who married Ellen DeGeneris(sp))

Some people like one, but if the other meat is cooked in a certain style, they can tolerate or even like it, but the degree of this is totally a matter of taste. [Kinsey 2 or 5, the nearly straight or gay]

Some people like one, but can psych themselves into eating something they don't like because, say they're Catholic and don't think they can eat beef on some days. [ideologically queer lesbians, or queerfolk who accept a duty to have sex with an opposite sex spouse, determined libertines]

Some people like both....sometimes with a marked preference, sometimes without one. [bisexual]

Some people don't care what their food tastes like but are focused on nutrition [pansexuals who are concerned with love and rapport first and then go on to work with whatever brings happiness for sex]

People who don't want to eat either. [asexuals]

This sort of sentiment _usually_ doesn't change....but apparently, it can. The mechanism is murky, but there is enough evidence to rule out the old certainties.

So all of these phenomena show clearly that there are no "absolute" cut and dried characteristics about _any_ of this. There are things that are _typical_, even _overwhelmingly_ common....but to state that there are ways of being human here that are "invalid" is generally flawed.

The only person who could conceivably be "invalid" is the one who refuses to know what they are and acts in various self- and other- destructive ways from the stresses of such "head in the sand" state of being. and even that could be rememdied.....being something that is true and might always be true (worse luck for them), but could also change.





You can pretend to "re-assign" their gender in the paperwork so you don't get a load of unsightly protests


The gender is not what it is reassigned. It is the _adjective_ of the implicit object of the reassignment, the genitals. The reassignment from one state to another, which is possible. "Gender" in this term is the reason for the reassignment of structure, not the type of reassignment.

There is no pretending. The point of gender identity disorder is that it is the RECOGNITION of _a psychological status quo_ which creates unnecessary stresses that can be remedied by changes in dress and body and mannerisms (sometimes little or nothing is done on a given front, but the point is to make whatever changes create more comfort and peace of mind.) These changes are not a re-assignment either...but they are real and necessary and deserve respect rather than your implicit statement 'it's false'....(Because to change any fundamental fact of your life to improve it is an effort almost NO one makes and any such acts merit respect.) False assumes there is 100% set in stone aspects to gender, sex and sexuality...and there are not.


:rolleyes: but the moment they set foot in a hospital or have contact with police or judiciary, sorry, but true identity has to be established.


Their birth status is irrelevant except as it touches upon medical issues (for example, many trans women take progesterone and have far higher levels of it than natal females). Saying the way things originally were matters is not supported by evidence. How does it matter ? how _could_ it matter ? People's behaviour is what these agencies care about....they have no business nor interest in private psychological issues.

The only practical reason for such 'establishment of facts" is to facilitate discrimination. And that is totally wrong by the lights of our legal principles.


There are inescapable practical limits to the extent to which society should share their denial.


First, you state it is a denial....but in point of fact, as long as it is what is best for the person, it is _confirmation_ of nature, not its repudiation. Nature is about the best adapation to the environment. About finding solutions. A solution may be incomplete, it may only be the best of two bad options, it can be many things...but _no one_ goes through this unless it _is_ a solution. You are the one who is in denial...about the nature of humanity itself.

What you are talking about is society's "right" to not be "annoyed" by atypical behaviour. But as long as that behaviour stops short of harming anyone _they have no right at all_!

I'm vastly annoyed by the more fundamentalist takes of the Latter Day Saints. One big bete noire is that I hate how they treat their women. But their women know there is an outside world, and if things are truly intolerable for them, they can always leave their community and join it. So I grit my teeth and accept the right they have the right to be (in my eyes) damned fools.


And if they want cosmetic surgery, they should pay for it themselves. I can't believe some of the things taxpayers are asked to subsidise these days.

We'll forget the simple act of compassion such as paying for cosmetic surgery for cogenital disfigurement....since you don't look like you'd be swayed by that....

But its is simply a matter of dollar and cents and sense. In my province, British Columbia, the government listed and provided service under the health plan, then they de-listed it. Then they re-listed it _because the case was made conclusively_ that it saved the province money by being covered. How ?

Because transfolk are typically depressed. Very depressed. They earn less money and pay less taxes and they often end up with extensive pscyhological support (including emergency services, hospitalization, therapy, and drugs) that is far more extensive for transfolk who do _not_ transition than ones who _do_.

In point of fact, the operation is the most successful psychiatric intervention ever endorsed by the metnal health sciences. It harms almost no one, helps the overwhelming majority and _really_ helps a large minority.

Also, by not subsidizing this, people go and have the operation at cut rates by dubious surgeons...and then come home and get sick from the complications (which can be quite messy). Since medically speaking their action was in their best interest, they were justified in doing so. And society pays for the government's stinginess in such cases. It's a case of being penny wise and pound foolish.

(fixing some of these complications can cost many times the cost of the surgery in the _first_ place.)

To me, this is very sad. I had a professor that was a transsexual. I've done research on the subject as a result, and almost no one who undergoes such a surgery is happy.


What data do you cite ? what research is this ? I am _most_ curious.

I've seen a professor at UVic (Aaron (born Holly) DeVor (sp?)) who for years advocated "living as you are". He even wrote at least one book on the subject "Gender Blending". Then finally for private reasons said "no, that's all bullshit" and had transition and reassignment surgery and has had a productive career in the years since. Normally if people fuck up their lives, their work suffers, you know.

But you should know that arguing from annecdote is most hazardous...if you have objective research to back you up, I am curious what it is, becuase none of _my_ reading points in the direction. And I _do not_ confine myself to ideological tracts masquerading as research.

YES I WOULD HATE TO BE DOING A GUY UGH THATS COMPLETELY DISGUSTING I DONT CARE IF THEY HAVE A VAGINA. As long as they USED to have a penis, i want to avoid them. Even if they are like the hottest peron on earth and know how to sex people REALLY good... NO!

So....you're essentially saying your strong feelings on this point are _totally_ irrational.

Normally, you are drawn to sexual attractiveness by the scheme of the female esthetic, the body with the right cues....but you're making an exception....in a manner similar to how if you blindfold a kid and feed them something and they like it....and then watch how in some cases they react with disgust when they can actually see the same food made the same way.

If you want to say you're irrational and childish, that's certainly your right :) Most people would probably blush though :)

YES I WOULD HATE TO BE DOING A GUY UGH THATS COMPLETELY DISGUSTING I DONT CARE IF THEY HAVE A VAGINA. As long as they USED to have a penis, i want to avoid them. Even if they are like the hottest peron on earth and know how to sex people REALLY good... NO!

Isn't it past your bedtime? The grown ups are trying to talk.

I want to be an elephant, but I'm not. It sucks, but that's just the way the dice are rolled. Grafting a trunk onto your face is just about as assinine as grafting a penis onto yourself, in my opinion.

But, my opinion is just my own and in then end I don't give a rat's ass. Be a dude or chick, whatever. It's pretty much the same as being gay, being a scat-lover or being a emo-fan. As long as you don't talk about it while I'm eating, I'll probably just laugh at you and shake my head.

However, I think people definately SHOULD have to say,'Hey... Before we get down to cocks and cunts, I just want you to know that I was born a man. You're about to have sex with my inside-out penis. Mmm." I think that is more common courtesy than anything, but it would also avoid the whole 'crack your muffuckin' wig open with a brick for making me think you were a woman' scenario.

That is deceitful at best, though malign and twisted would be the words I would use. Let a nigga know.

But i bet if you could you would :)

As for the original Post - what people do to their own body at their own cost is none of my business

The whole “gender reassignment” thing, to me, suggests that the gender was assigned in the first place. It wasn’t.
“Sex” is you physical attributes, so I don’t see what the problem with calling a sex change operation is. It’s not like you’re calling it a gender change.

There are people who feel that they were born into the wrong gender. We typically call them transexuals. Because of society's feelings about gender issues, some of them are forced to live in a constant shame of how they feel, while others end up living as the sex they feel, and sometimes even having it surgically changed.

Should transexuals be able to change their legal status? What safeguards should there be to assure that people getting Sex Reassignment Surgery arn't making a mistake? Should people just "live as their born?"

We shouldn't require people to legally change their gender or whatever... Why should they have to? If you just allow gay marriage, then most of the problems are solved. If nothing else, let people just change their legal gender in the same way they change their name-- fill out some forms and whatever, and submit them.

Meh, their money, their body, I don't care what they do.
Quite Fucking True

However, I think people definately SHOULD have to say,'Hey... Before we get down to cocks and cunts, I just want you to know that I was born a man. You're about to have sex with my inside-out penis. Mmm." I think that is more common courtesy than anything, but it would also avoid the whole 'crack your muffuckin' wig open with a brick for making me think you were a woman' scenario.Um...the person in question is a woman, whether or not they were born with a vagina.

There are people who feel that they were born into the wrong gender. We typically call them transexuals. Because of society's feelings about gender issues, some of them are forced to live in a constant shame of how they feel, while others end up living as the sex they feel, and sometimes even having it surgically changed.

Should transexuals be able to change their legal status? What safeguards should there be to assure that people getting Sex Reasignment Surgery arn't making a mistake? Should people just "live as their born?"

I think the general rule is that transexuals must live for about a year as a member of the opposite sex before surgery, to ensure that they are making the right decision.
Personally, I see no reason why gender reassigment surgery shouldn't be legal. The only question is how far the government must go in funding the operations.

Well, im glad that the majority of people here are taking a sensible view of this. Just a shame that a large proportion of mainstream society persists in finding this "funny" and think that people afflicted with this are "fair game" to persecute. Then again, if i wasnt to some degree a sufferer of this id probably have the same attitudes as the "intolerant" people. Cant decide if such attitudes are part of a wider fundamental dislike of "difference" or just the fault of the media.

I think a good response to this thread is to post two quotes I saved from another transgender based discussion, as I felt they brilliantly summed up everything I could say on the subject and more:

To all those who think we should just 'deal with it':
You don't know how much it hurts being like this. You don't know how it feels to be in a body that doesn't match your mind. It's a mental pain of a sort most everybody will never experience.
There's only two ways to 'deal with it'. Correct your gender to bring it in line with the way you feel, or die. Because that's the way it is with most of us, eventuslly the weight of living in the wrong body gets too much, and oftentimes it all ends in death.

I bet most of you haven't heard of 'the 50% rule'. It's an offhand guideline bandied about by people over transsexual death rates. The 50% rule is this:
By the age of 30, 50% of all transsexuals die, usually by their own hand.

Does that seem like too many? Well, it is. Even one person dying by their own hand due to not being accepted is too many.

You people, the people that say we should just 'deal with it', you are some of the cause of this. Do you know how much it hurts knowing that you're living a lie, and you can't tell anybody about the way you really feel because you'll be ostracized? It hurts like hell, having a fundamental facet of your being that must be hidden and suppressed so nobody notices.

Pretending to be normal and trying to live life normally doesn't work for most of us. That's the sort of thing that leaves people dead.

Please, if you have a heart, don't tell people they should 'just deal with it'. It's not going to help them.


As for how bad it can be...again, I can only approximate what my brother has gone through (and will continue to go through). Just picture yourself, outwardly 'normal'. Imagine that you have a terrible secret...you hate ketchup and everyone else is mad for it. Ketchup on cereal, ketchup on perogies, ketchup icecream...you can't stand the stuff, but you choke it down, day after day, afraid that if you let on you hate it, your family will abandon you, your friends will desert you, and you'll be labelled as someone who has 'chosen' to be different, just to be difficult. You're taught to 'be yourself', to 'listen to your inner voice' when it comes to making ANY decision but this one. In this case, you must betray yourself over and over again just to fit it, and you can never, ever talk about your difference. The confusion becomes so bad, you start to believe you are creating the problem, that if you could just learn to love ketchup, you'd be happy. So you try...but no matter how hard you work at it, your body and mind rebel. You hate yourself for being different. You are deathly afraid of admitting your difference. You are torn, and unsure, and completely alone. Getting up in the morning, knowing you're going to have to continue living a lie is enough to make you want to kill yourself rather than face it anymore.

Neo-Anarchists---
"To all those who think we should just 'deal with it':
You don't know how much it hurts being like this. You don't know how it feels to be in a body that doesn't match your mind. It's a mental pain of a sort most everybody will never experience.
There's only two ways to 'deal with it'. Correct your gender to bring it in line with the way you feel, or die."


i don't understand the overdramatized, we're so different that nobody could possibly understand stuff. do you know how many people have suffered the loss of a limb, loss of the use of a limb, or some form of paralization? they have an even bigger problem with a body that doesn't match their mind than a person with a gender identity issue.....and yet they are not killing themselves in droves. according to your logic, they should either be magically healing or killing themselves since those are the only two options. how come so many of them seem to be doing so well? i have absolutely no problem with hormone treatments and surgery to bring your body in line with the way you think it should be. go ahead, it does nobody in the world any harm, and they have no reason to complain(although some will for the same stupid reason that to them, different=bad). the fact remains that the only barrier to being happy is in the mind. without some sort of disability, you are capable of doing what any other person can do.....and what many millions of people in the world that are less fortunate cannot

Neo-Anarchists---
"To all those who think we should just 'deal with it':
You don't know how much it hurts being like this. You don't know how it feels to be in a body that doesn't match your mind. It's a mental pain of a sort most everybody will never experience.
There's only two ways to 'deal with it'. Correct your gender to bring it in line with the way you feel, or die."


i don't understand the overdramatized, we're so different that nobody could possibly understand stuff. do you know how many people have suffered the loss of a limb, loss of the use of a limb, or some form of paralization? they have an even bigger problem with a body that doesn't match their mind than a person with a gender identity issue.....and yet they are not killing themselves in droves. according to your logic, they should either be magically healing or killing themselves since those are the only two options. how come so many of them seem to be doing so well? i have absolutely no problem with hormone treatments and surgery to bring your body in line with the way you think it should be. go ahead, it does nobody in the world any harm, and they have no reason to complain(although some will for the same stupid reason that to them, different=bad). the fact remains that the only barrier to being happy is in the mind. without some sort of disability, you are capable of doing what any other person can do.....and what many millions of people in the world that are less fortunate cannot
People who have lost a limb have an instantly understandable situation and usually a strong support system.

whether they have an instantly understandable situation or a strong support system.....they are still actually physically handicapped. and, they have lost something that they used to have. people with gender identity issues do not have a physical handicap and they have not lost anything they once had. they overcome far greater hurdles to achieve happiness, and they succeed.

whether they have an instantly understandable situation or a strong support system.....they are still actually physically handicapped. and, they have lost something that they used to have. people with gender identity issues do not have a physical handicap and they have not lost anything they once had. they overcome far greater hurdles to achieve happiness, and they succeed.
So, not only are we comparing apples and oranges, we're comparing the size of the fruit?

i'm just going off what the one person with the gender identity issue posted. maybe if we can get a person with no legs AND a gender identity issue then we can see exactly how they compare