NationStates Jolt Archive

Here's the skinny on my Possibly Quixotic scheme:

I'm in the Boy Scouts of America, on the cusp of getting my Eagle. I've only got one more hurdle to clear: A cross-examination by some of the top BSA brass in my Council aka an Eagle Board of Review. There's a problem: I'm agnostic. That's a BIG no-no in the Boy Scouts. You have to be some sort of theist( preferably Judeo-Christian) or your ass is out of there. If the brass asks me about my religion I could always lie by omission( I am technically a member of the Church.)

But if I do that, I'll have compromised my integrity. Also, if I DID tell 'em the straight up truth, odds are there'd be a lot of press( Whenever someone gets kicked out of BSA based on belief there's always a furor)

I could give an interview, tell the people in my area( who are mostly fundamentalist Christians and some of whom aren't open-minded) " SEE? UNBELIEVERS HAVE MORALS THEY LIVE BY! DON'T HATE, APPRECIATE!"

That's the quixotic part. I'd probably be ostricized and no one would adopt a more loving, tolerant view of non-Christians. But I've had to keep my beliefs on the down-low for so long! And if I COULD change at least one person's view on unbelievers... well that would be flippin' awesome.

This would also have negative consequences: I wouldn't get Eagle( which looks kick-ass on your resume) and some of my friends and people I've known forever would probably not like me so much. But I'd feel good about myself, know I did the right thing.

So you all see that I'm between a rock and a hard place. So start giving advice, please and I'll decide whether my scheme is really that quixotic or not. Post peoples! Post away! MWAHAHAHA!:p

Sorry... I had a silly seizure.

Are you going to sell your beliefs to get a medal of the Boy Scouts?

My Oh my, this world is going right down the toilet, people do not have honor anymore.

If you want to associate yourself with the Unitarians, that's probably an option. The BSA recognizes them, or at least lets them give one of the religion award thingies.

Dear me.

Just say that you're a Christian. What are you worried about? No-one can prove your faith either way, no-one really cares if you're lying, if there is a God, he'll be more angry with you than the Boy Scouts of America could ever be and the whole thing will only damage your integrity if you let it.

I lie about my religion all the time. Why? Because I've got as many answers and as firm a grip on the truth as anyone else.

Here's the skinny on my Possibly Quixotic scheme:

I'm in the Boy Scouts of America, on the cusp of getting my Eagle. I've only got one more hurdle to clear: A cross-examination by some of the top BSA brass in my Council aka an Eagle Board of Review. There's a problem: I'm agnostic. That's a BIG no-no in the Boy Scouts. You have to be some sort of theist( preferably Judeo-Christian) or your ass is out of there. If the brass asks me about my religion I could always lie by omission( I am technically a member of the Church.)

But if I do that, I'll have compromised my integrity. Also, if I DID tell 'em the straight up truth, odds are there'd be a lot of press( Whenever someone gets kicked out of BSA based on belief there's always a furor)

I could give an interview, tell the people in my area( who are mostly fundamentalist Christians and some of whom aren't open-minded) " SEE? UNBELIEVERS HAVE MORALS THEY LIVE BY! DON'T HATE, APPRECIATE!"

That's the quixotic part. I'd probably be ostricized and no one would adopt a more loving, tolerant view of non-Christians. But I've had to keep my beliefs on the down-low for so long! And if I COULD change at least one person's view on unbelievers... well that would be flippin' awesome.

This would also have negative consequences: I wouldn't get Eagle( which looks kick-ass on your resume) and some of my friends and people I've known forever would probably not like me so much. But I'd feel good about myself, know I did the right thing.

So you all see that I'm between a rock and a hard place. So start giving advice, please and I'll decide whether my scheme is really that quixotic or not. Post peoples! Post away! MWAHAHAHA!:p

Sorry... I had a silly seizure.

Get Eagle, then "come out." If they want to call you out after that, it'll just make them look like the losers they are.

If you want to associate yourself with the Unitarians, that's probably an option. The BSA recognizes them, or at least lets them give one of the religion award thingies.

Yeah, I saw those medals. That's one thing I don't understand; they have a policy of 'theists only' and yet there's a BSA medal for Buddhists, who really aren't theists.

I think I heard somewhere, that the religious organizations are the ones who give the medals, not the BSA.

Sell your soul to the boyscouts for a pin, good job.

Dear me.

Just say that you're a Christian. What are you worried about? No-one can prove your faith either way, no-one really cares if you're lying, if there is a God, he'll be more angry with you than the Boy Scouts of America could ever be and the whole thing will only damage your integrity if you let it.

I lie about my religion all the time. Why? Because I've got as many answers and as firm a grip on the truth as anyone else.

Belief always has doubt at the bottom that's true.

I guess I could just pray they don't ask me about my religion. Then if they don't, I'll have found religion and the whole thing will be a moot point.:)

Yeah, I saw those medals. That's one thing I don't understand; they have a policy of 'theists only' and yet there's a BSA medal for Buddhists, who really aren't theists.

I think I heard somewhere, that the religious organizations are the ones who give the medals, not the BSA.
The orgs give the medals by sanction of the BSA.

Furthermore, the primary requirement is not theism, but faith. In what, that's up to you.

I say tell the truth come hell or high water!
I'm obstinate like that.

Sell your soul to the boyscouts for a pin, good job.
He's already done the hard part. The stuff that caused me to say "fuck this shit, I'm not going to bother" my freshman year of high school.

Sell your soul to the boyscouts for a pin, good job.


Read the OP, you punk! I HAVEN'T DECIDED YET! I MAY OR MAY NOT SELL MY SOUL( is it MY fault that an Eagle Medal can get you into a kick-ass college? That's really the rub here. If it weren't so potentially beneficial later on, in life after the BSA, I'd say screw it immediately.)

Oh, selling your soul to get in a crappy college eh?

The orgs give the medals by sanction of the BSA.

Furthermore, the primary requirement is not theism, but faith. In what, that's up to you.

That's what I sort of meant by theism: Belief in a higher power, not necessarily in organized religion.

WAIT. So if they sanction the medals, that means they permit Buddhists, which indirectly admit atheists since Buddhists aren't theists, so that may mean I'm off the hook.

Read the OP, you punk! I HAVEN'T DECIDED YET! I MAY OR MAY NOT SELL MY SOUL( is it MY fault that an Eagle Medal can get you into a kick-ass college? That's really the rub here. If it weren't so potentially beneficial later on, in life after the BSA, I'd say screw it immediately.)

Aren't you good enough to get into a kick-ass college all by yourself without the help of an Eagle Medal?

That would explain a lot, but well...

Stand for what you belief, no matter what, if not, you're just telling lies to yourself...

Oh, selling your soul to get in a crappy college eh?

Actually, potentially not that crappy. But as I said, I'm still in limbo! I haven't gone to the Board of Review yet! Dammit!

That's what I sort of meant by theism: Belief in a higher power, not necessarily in organized religion.

WAIT. So if they sanction the medals, that means they permit Buddhists, which indirectly admit atheists since Buddhists aren't theists, so that may mean I'm off the hook.
Buddhism as a personal philosophy probably wouldn't be a negative to pick up. Then you can at least claim that. Perhaps a very liberal version of Buddhism.

Or, I dunno. I'm just fooling around with ideas here.

And, yep, they wouldn't put lists of the medals in the books if they didn't sanction them.

Aren't you good enough to get into a kick-ass college all by yourself without the help of an Eagle Medal?

That would explain a lot, but well...

Stand for what you belief, no matter what, if not, you're just telling lies to yourself...

You make a good point. But there are other factors I forgot to mention in the OP. My Dad's a former Eagle and he's really been looking forward to me getting this award. Also, if I come clean about being agnostic( which many equate with atheist, which kind of has negative connotations) then it wouldn't just be ME that people would shun, it would rub off on my whole family. Yeah, I have a moral imperative to be honest, but if I could lie by omission, would telling the truth be worth the crap my family would go through if I told the truth?

Well... when does this ceremony take place? In other words, how long do you have to prepare?

I'd be boning up on my Bible studies (the Gospels and later in the New Testament are good ideas, if you've read them you can act more devout, but even most fundies don't read the Bible.)

Revelation's good too, if you can make like you believe the Rapture is imminent...

I personally am an atheist with no BSA experience, so take my advice with a grain of salt. You can always get Eagle, come out a few weeks or months before you leave the Scouts (age 18? Not really sure...), THEN show them up for the religious bigots they are.

You make a good point. But there are other factors I forgot to mention in the OP. My Dad's a former Eagle and he's really been looking forward to me getting this award. Also, if I come clean about being agnostic( which many equate with atheist, which kind of has negative connotations) then it wouldn't just be ME that people would shun, it would rub off on my whole family. Yeah, I have a moral imperative to be honest, but if I could lie by omission, would telling the truth be worth the crap my family would go through if I told the truth?

Yes it would, you would be defending yourself.

Your family should respect what you believe, as a matter of fact should respect your desire to be unique, and support it, but, sigh...

Try to be good enough as a Boy Scout to get that Eagle even by saying that you are indeed an agnostic. If you fail, tell your dad that you did your best effort, and that your best effort is far from lying to people, and to yourself.

If he is a good man and father, he will nod, even if disgruntled, if he's not, then you shouldn't worry about anything that he says or thinks...

I defend that everyone should preserve integrity. If you could lie about your thoughts to get a medal of the boy scouts...What could remain for us, that must remain faithful to what we believe in even under threats, persecution and despise?

Just be honest, that way you could avoid living a life of regrets. It's the best advise I can come out with, although it's your call.

I'd give you a pledge pin just for using quixotic in a sentence.

I'd give you a pledge pin just for using quixotic in a sentence.

Screw all the moralistic crap people are spouting forth.

Principles are for those whose rich mummy and daddy can get them into a great university. If this Eagle badge will put you in a better position for getting into a good school them suck it up and do whatever you need to to get it.

Remember, you'll be able to achieve far more good in this world with a good education and money than you ever will on the breadline with you ideals intact.

Screw all the moralistic crap people are spouting forth.

Principles are for those whose rich mummy and daddy can get them into a great university. If this Eagle badge will put you in a better position for getting into a good school them suck it up and do whatever you need to to get it.

Remember, you'll be able to achieve far more good in this world with a good education and money than you ever will on the breadline with you ideals intact.

"Rich mummy and daddy"...Money is not necessarily the only way to get education. Try scholarships.

Ideals form part of education. Although I am not a millionaire, I have fared well enough. Principles are the beginning of everything. Without principles, you are not even worthy of an education

Say you worship the Norse gods and you really need to get home to sacrifice a ram to Thor.

okay, so you are agnostic (read undecided) here is the deal

there is a God and you lie about believing in him bad for 2 reasons 1 you don't believe, and 2 you lied.......

or there isn't a God and what you do here doesn't matter, no problem lie, it's not hurting anyone, or infringing on thier rights, so, it's no biggie

so your problem isn't the BSA it's indecision.

Decide and solve all your problems.

;)

(oh, and did I see an atheist up there talking about "selling your soul" I thought you people didn't believe in "souls" :p )

Ideals form part of education. Although I am not a millionaire, I have fared well enough. Principles are the beginning of everything. Without principles, you are not even worthy of an education

And what have you achieved so far? What world altering changes have you been able to effect? How have you principles helped you shape the world into a better place?

If you're rich then you get to have principles and make a difference. If you're not then it time to stick them in the drawer long enough for you to get rich and then get them out, dust them off and make a difference.

Risking your education for the sake of having to lie about your religion seems a little daft to me.

And what have you achieved so far? What world altering changes have you been able to effect? How have you principles helped you shape the world into a better place?

If you're rich then you get to have principles and make a difference. If you're not then it time to stick them in the drawer long enough for you to get rich and then get them out, dust them off and make a difference.

Risking your education for the sake of having to lie about your religion seems a little daft to me.

I have achieved enough, I have helped kids to get an education, I have helped hospitals to get a better budget, I have denounced political prisoners so they can be released. Actually, I think I have done more than enough, and even more, I work in the media, with a positive journalism program so I can help people everyday and get paid for it.

My principles have helped me to shape the world, at least the one around me, into a better place. If more people could do the same, then we could improve it more and more every day, so it is part of my work to convince people to follow ideals and do the same thing. It's utopic, but valid nevertheless.

He's not even "risking his education". What do you think about people that actually risk their lives for what they believe?

I have achieved enough, I have helped kids to get an education, I have helped hospitals to get a better budget, I have denounced political prisoners so they can be released. Actually, I think I have done more than enough, and even more, I work in the media, with a positive journalism program so I can help people everyday and get paid for it.

My principles have helped me to shape the world, at least the one around me, into a better place. If more people could do the same, then we could improve it more and more every day, so it is part of my work to convince people to follow ideals and do the same thing. It's utopic, but valid nevertheless.

He's not even "risking his education". What do you think about people that actually risk their lives for what they believe?

Post #12 he says that having it will get him into a better college, I don't know enough about the entrance system to US colleges to argue whether or not this is true so I accept his word for it, hence my 'risking his education' comments.

You work as a journalist? Which college did you go to?

People risking their lives for principles? It's up to them but I would hope that before they put themselves in the situation they had exhausted all their other options first. Seem a bit of a waste to end your only life for a belief, I've never known a dead guy to achieve too much.

Stealing a bank will get him more money too. Raping women will get him an active sex life without placing effort with dating. Cheating in the exams will get him better grades.

I do work as a journalist. I earned a scholarship in the Universidad Católica Andrés Bello and also studied in the Universidad Central de Venezuela, (not colleges, universities). I was tested along with more 50,000 people for like 100 places.

All I am saying is that he still has more options, it's not like the Eagle Medal is his only way to get an education. So, if to get the medal he is forced to lie, then he should try something else, more honest, more morally uncontested.

This ultimately depends upon how much you value your integrity over advancement.
It is not an easy question; very brilliant and reasonable people will have different opinions about this matter

As a practical matter, you could be sacrificing something significant. In many professions, those who remain true to their convictions often sacrifice a great deal of accolades because they refused to compromise themselves or participate in unethical practices. As unfortunate as this situation is, it is generally true. Honest people, statistically, tend to earn smaller incomes, do not advance as quickly and often bare more injustice than people who take bribes, ingratiate themselves with the boss and lie to avoid the blame.

Nevertheless, a lie is a lie. It can ultimately come back to you. Remember also that by telling the truth, you do not automatically sacrifice an Eagle Badge (although you do significantly risk your chances). But by lying about it, you run the risk of losing your reputation should the lie be discovered. In the real world, there can be worse punishments – look at Enron. That does not even begin to describe the cost to your integrity. But, for all my personal disdain, I am not the one who may be risking an Eagle Badge.

With that said, there is also a great deal of room in between. Most people, I imagine, are neither devoid of morals or purely (to borrow your diction) quixotic. Usually, people can look at where their costs are greatest and choose the option that minimizes that cost. This could justify why some people choose to lie if asked by a personal friend if they think that they are fat. The cost, hurting the feelings of a friend, is great compared to the cost of lying in that situation.

Having worked in an admissions office at one of the top universities in the nation, I can assure you that an Eagle Badge will not make or break your chances of admission. It will depend greatly upon which universities you apply, but, generally speaking, selective universities (Ivy League and Public Ivy League Universities) look for a broad range of factors and take each applicant holistically. Whether or not you have an Eagle Badge to boast of is not as important as who you are as a person. Now, an Eagle Badge on an application is generally considered a positive sign since it can demonstrate dedication and passion. But between an Eagle Badge and integrity, most, if not all, college admissions directors prefer integrity. On your application there are places for you to list your non-academic achievements and commitments. So application readers will at least have a chance to notice that you have dedicated a good number of years to the boy scouts. At that point, whether or not you have an Eagle Badge doesn’t matter as much as having dedicated years to service and definitely not as much as your grades and SAT scores. Also, don’t forget that you do have the option (if not requirement) of writing an essay, which to admissions readers is far more important than any accolade short of a Nobel Prize. The essay tells college readers about you. Colleges want to find out about what kind of a person you are: what are your passions? Are you an honest person? Are you a compassionate and caring person? Are you hard-working and diligent? None of these questions can be answered by a two-word mention of an Eagle Badge. If you choose to tell the truth and as a result loose the Eagle Badge, then remember that you can include a letter or mention in your essay explaining why you intentionally risked loosing your Eagle Badge for the sake of honesty. I think that would be an excellent demonstration of your moral fiber.

Also, if it reassures you, I can say that you are definitely not alone in having to endure injustices enacted by the BSA. There is a surprisingly large number of young men who have been treated unfairly by the BSA on account of religion, race and sexual orientation. From reading their stories, I can somewhat understand how difficult this must be for you and I hope that the outcome turns out well whatever your choice may be.

Lie through your teeth if need be and get Eagle Scout.
You.ve already sold out by staying in Scouts this long while knowing that your lack of faith disqualifies you for Eagle Scout. There is no sense in suddenly surprising the poor unsuspecting BSA in the last second with a media blitz over something you knew all along.
They made the rules and they played by them from the first time you swore to do your duty to God and Country. You have little right nor reason to suddenly fuck the boy scouts in this manner. If you have the moral fortitude then do the right thing and quit. Then call a media blitz. If you dont have moral fibre to do the right thing by the Scouts then lie and take the benefits of making Eagle Scout. Dont take the benefits of Eagle Scout and fuck the BSA for giving it to you despite your two faced treatment of them.

At first, just say you are, I dunno, Buddhist (like some others said) or Unitarian. Then after you get the Eagle thing admit your beliefs. If they kick you out or whatever, call a media blitz. Muah ha ha ha ha!

Say that you are agnostic, and explain what it means for you to be agnostic. As I understand it, there are two types of agnostic - one is completely undecided either way, and the other believes in a higher power but doesn't know what this higher power is. In the latter case, they can't do anything about it because you have faith. In the former, explain why this isn't an issue. Have your argument set out before you go (but only present an argument if they don't immediately accept what you are saying in the first place). And then - don't tell if they don't ask! If they don't give it to you on account of your beliefs alone - have your parents sue their butts off! :D You'll get your press too.

This is why I prefer Girl Scouts. Faith is not a requirement, especially not for the Gold Award (our version of the Eagle). And in the one place where "God" is mentioned, there is an asterisk where they say that you can put in whatever you believe in (and if you don't believe in anything, you can easily skip it as "to serve God and my country" could become "to serve my country" or "to serve humanity and my country" or something like that). One girl once asked all of her friends to use her name there. I don't think they did, but it made for a funny story!

Your name is Machiavellian Heaven, try some realpolitik and be practical. It hardly matters whether or not you are being honest on this matter and you could lose too much. Just use logic.


Tell Truth- Lose Eagle Scout, hurt family, etc

Lie- Lie, get better college and scholarship, look better, nobody gets hurt.

Lying is a win for everyone.

I agree with Oxymoon on this one – be honest and simply state what you believe.

They will not refuse simply because you are not a fundamentalist Christian.
Even if the local fundies reject you, appeal to the national council – unless you are demonstrably unsuited to advancement, they would not dare reject you because you are not a devoted worshiper.

Be honest – isn’t that considered important in the scouts anymore?
Be clear about your beliefs and stand by them.

I don't think you should lie just to get the Eagle and then tell the truth, as some have suggested. The media blitz will make you look bad. The BSA will probably say something along the lines of, "See? He doesn't accept Jesus, so he lies because he has no morals. The BSA are a moral organization, blah, blah, blah." It seems to me that you wan to dispel the misconceptions about agnosticism, but this course would most likely do more harm than good.

If you just lie and don't come clean at all, you would have to deal with the inner turmoil of living a lie... unless you quit without exposing your "dirty little secret." This way, you wouldn't have to start a huge fight, but you'd still get the ends you seek.

Finally, you could just tell them what you believe as soon as they bring it up. You could explain to them what agnosticism really is, and explain that you can still have morals, as demonstrated by your years of service and your coming forward with the truth. Tell them how much this means to you, and that despite any theological differences, you are still just as capable of carrying out your duties as any theist. If they go the road of the stereotypical fundy and throw you out without any further discussion, then you can sic the media on them. In this situation, I think that your unwillingness to compromise your integrity will sway public opinion in your favor, as well as help dismiss misconceptions about your beliefs. If all goes as planned and you get some interviews and positive press, I think that will take you further than the title of Eagle would have. Hell, you might even get a book deal.

But that's just my $0.02.

It's my understanding that, to be an Eagle Scout, you have to have integrity.

So, in your case, to become an Eagle Scout you have to sacrifice integrity, but if you show integrity, you may be denied the rank.

Of course, you might tell them you're a Taoist.

Tao (pronounced "Dow") can be roughly translated into English as path, or the way. It is basically indefinable. It has to be experienced. It "refers to a power which envelops, surrounds and flows through all things, living and non-living. The Tao regulates natural processes and nourishes balance in the Universe. It embodies the harmony of opposites (i.e. there would be no love without hate, no light without dark, no male without female.)"

http://www.religioustolerance.org/taoism.htm