NationStates Jolt Archive

OK, long time reader, first time poster :D

I'll start by letting it be known that I am a devout Christian, as it's important to the question that I am going to ask.
Basically, a friend I know recently came out as being gay and I am now at the crossroads of what action I should take. I will admit that my knee jerk reaction was to disown them but that quickly faded and I think it was mainly caused by my shock of hearing the news and having had the fact kept from me and others for so long. I am not an extremist in my views (i.e. I am not worried about him coming onto me or catching 'gay' or any of that nonsense) but my faith is very important to me.
My decision now is how I should handle this situation with my friend in regards to my beliefs. I was hoping some fellow Christians on this board may have been in a similar position before and could share their experiences or give me some guidance. I know how the church looks upon homosexuality but to me, I look at the things said in the Bible and I really wonder how big of a deal this really is; I mean while homosexuality is frowned upon in the Bible, it's only mentioned in a few places and isn't one of the seven deadly sins. Also, at least to me, the main message I get from the Bible is that of understanding and love between each other. I certainly don' consider myself to be free of sin so who am I to condemn my friend? However, should I offer him guidance in accordance with my beliefs or should I just ignore the situation completely (I'm not really sure how practical this is). I am honestly not sure what to do.

There is also the matter of how HE will respond to my beliefs, knowing that I am a strong christian and how I feel about his choices but I guess that is up to him and I'll cross that bridge if/when I have made my own decisions.

Please, I don't want this to turn into a pro/anti gay thread. Neither I nor the forums need another one of those. So please, keep this civil and thanks in advance for your responses.

I know how the church looks upon homosexuality but to me, I look at the things said in the Bible and I really wonder how big of a deal this really is; I mean while homosexuality is frowned upon in the Bible, it's only mentioned in a few places and isn't one of the seven deadly sins. Also, at least to me, the main message I get from the Bible is that of understanding and love between each other. I certainly don' consider myself to be free of sin so who am I to condemn my friend?


Let me quote from someone on Usenet: "As you may know, the Bible has 8 admonitions for homosexuals; but has 682 admonitions for heterosexuals."

I used to be Christian, but I'll try some advice anyway.

Don't lecture, don't ignore, just accept. You can focus on the two verses in the bible stating that homosexual actions aren't generally approved, or you can focus on the way Christ behaved towards people perceived as sinners. I'd suggest the second option. He's your friend, accept it, help him if he asks you for help, but keep in mind that it's his life and his happiness.

, the main message I get from the Bible is that of understanding and love between each other

I think you answered your own question.

And anyway, doesn't it say, "judge not lest ye be judged" as well as a whole load of stuff in that area?

(What are you by the by? Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, etc. etc)

I am also a Christian, but I do not believe there is anything wrong with being gay. My advice to you is to study, pray and reflect; you may just find that what you have been told the Bible/Church thinks isn't actually true at all. If I were you, I'd start with two questions:

1) If God loves us how we are and moulds us in his image, why would he create homosexuals the way they are and then treat them as sinners for it?
2) Can the homosexual verses in the Bible really be reconciled with a loving God, and a Son who came to earth and told us to love our neighbour as ourself? Who's word do you believe: the word of a human writer, or the words of Jesus himself?

Who's word do you believe: the word of a human writer, or the words of Jesus himself?


...the latter, of course, also having been set down for us by a human writer...

Life's too short to spend with "friends" who judge you or who want to lecture you about or ignore a pretty big part of your life that has to do with who you are at the core.

My advice to your friend is that unless you can get over it and just simply accept it, he should dump you.

...the latter, of course, also having been set down for us by a human writer...
It's not perfect, but I'd prefer the second hand words of God to the second hand words of a human.

It's not perfect, but I'd prefer the second hand words of God to the second hand words of a human.

God told me you were wrong.*



* Now, you see what I did there?

Anyhoo, we're getting off into dangerous hijack territory here, and that ain't my intention.

God told me you were wrong.*



* Now, you see what I did there?
Yep. You made something up.*



*Now, you see what I dismissed there?

It's not perfect, but I'd prefer the second hand words of God to the second hand words of a human.

Instead of the first-hand thoughts of your own.

Let me quote from someone on Usenet: "As you may know, the Bible has 8 admonitions for homosexuals; but has 682 admonitions for heterosexuals."
Lol, are you saying I should disown everyone? :P

I am also a Christian, but I do not believe there is anything wrong with being gay. My advice to you is to study, pray and reflect; you may just find that what you have been told the Bible/Church thinks isn't actually true at all. If I were you, I'd start with two questions:

1) If God loves us how we are and moulds us in his image, why would he create homosexuals the way they are and then treat them as sinners for it?
2) Can the homosexual verses in the Bible really be reconciled with a loving God, and a Son who came to earth and told us to love our neighbour as ourself? Who's word do you believe: the word of a human writer, or the words of Jesus himself?
I see what you are saying but God gave us free will, which I guess allows sin to exist and it is part of life and something we must deal with. I know God loves all of us, even we who sin and I will never hate my friend for his choices. However, to me it seems clear that homosexuality isn't condoned by the Bible and the Church and my genuine concern is that if I condone it, does it make me less of a Christian? Also, I am Anglican for the poster who asked (but I genereally just say Christian).

Guys, come on. He's just looking for some help- neither the time nor place for the usual religious debate.

Guys, come on. He's just looking for some help- neither the time nor place for the usual religious debate.

It's so hard to resist a small quip. Though, you are right. I shall refrain henceforth.

1 Corinthians 6:9 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


When in doubt, check the manual.

However, to me it seems clear that homosexuality isn't condoned by the Bible and the Church and my genuine concern is that if I condone it, does it make me less of a Christian?

No mate. What would make you less of a Christian would be if you hated people for being who they are, for no other reason. Christianity is about at its core- treating everyone like you would want to be treated yourself.

I see what you are saying but God gave us free will, which I guess allows sin to exist and it is part of life and something we must deal with. I know God loves all of us, even we who sin and I will never hate my friend for his choices. However, to me it seems clear that homosexuality isn't condoned by the Bible and the Church and my genuine concern is that if I condone it, does it make me less of a Christian? Also, I am Anglican for the poster who asked.

Let's put up a counter example. I assume you also have a couple of heterosexual friends. Some migt be married, others most likely aren't. And those who aren't quite possibly have nevertheless sexual encounters, maybe casual, maybe with their boyfriend/girlfriend.
The bible frowns on that as well. Would you distance yourself from them for that, too?

Lol, are you saying I should disown everyone? :P

No, just that on the basis of the Bible it seems that God is much more concerned with heterosexual activities rather than homosexual ones. Make of that what you will.

Denounce all forms of religion and then you can make your decisions based on what you as an individual think is right.

I see what you are saying but God gave us free will, which I guess allows sin to exist and it is part of life and something we must deal with. I know God loves all of us, even we who sin and I will never hate my friend for his choices. However, to me it seems clear that homosexuality isn't condoned by the Bible and the Church and my genuine concern is that if I condone it, does it make me less of a Christian? Also, I am Anglican for the poster who asked.
I am an Anglican. To say our Church is against homosexuality is to be completely lacking in knowledge of the split currently going on. Ever heard of Gene Robinson?

What loving God would create people in such a way that they are designed by their very nature to sin just by living, and then condemn these people for the way He has created them? This is not a God I wish to know.

My advice... let him know that you dis-agree with the Homosexual aspect but still accept him and care for him as you did before you found out.

Yes Homosexuality is wrong but the bible says all have sinned so it doesn't matter if he's homosexual or not, all that matters if he knows Christ and you have to bring God's love to your friend both through your relationship with your friend and through the love that Jesus showed dieing for your friend, you and me.

Basically "He who is without sin may cast the first stone."

No mate. What would make you less of a Christian would be if you hated people for being who they are, for no other reason. Christianity is about at its core- treating everyone like you would want to be treated yourself.


And it absolutely is NOT about the relationship between a Critter and his or her Creator, right?

And it absolutely is NOT about the relationship betwen a Critter and his or her Creator, right?
Umm, Critter?

Umm, Critter?

Critter. Creature.

This is how I would take it. Act as Jesus did. Seperate a persons actions from themselves. If homosexuality is or isnt sinful is really irrelevent to how we as Christians should treat gay people. Love sinners, hate sins. Since we are all sinners, there is no real cause for judging and treating your friend any diffrently now to how you treeted him before.

I am an Anglican. To say our Church is against homosexuality is to be completely lacking in knowledge of the split currently going on. Ever heard of Gene Robinson?

What loving God would create us in such a way that we are designed by our very nature to sin, and then condemn these people for the way He has created them? This is not a God I wish to know.

I don't want to get into a debate but if God says that homosexuality is wrong then he did not design us that way. Why would he make us something that he hates? The answer why at least some of us humans are homosexual is the same answer why we sin. We sin... that sin involves Homosexual, It was not part of God's design or wishes and it is something that we humans are responsible for. Not Him.

Umm, Critter?

small furry thing... bit scary if you've seen the movie

Critter. Creature.
Ah right.

Then, no. Its not about your direct relationship with God. Its about your direct relationship with other people day in day out.

just tell him not rub it in your face... erm.. his sexuality that is, not his .. never mind

ask him to respect you as you should respect him

This is how I would take it. Act as Jesus did. Seperate a persons actions from themselves. If homosexuality is or isnt sinful is really irrelevent to how we as Christians should treat gay people. Love sinners, hate sins. Since we are all sinners, there is no real cause for judging and treating your friend any diffrently now to how you treeted him before.

Wow... that must be about the first time ever I agree with you :)

Bazalonia']My advice... let him know that you dis-agree with the Homosexual aspect but still accept him and care for him as you did before you found out.

And basically make himself dump-worthy. The thing is, people, one can expect tolerance and acceptance of strangers and acquaintances. Of friends, one should expect a lot more than "I disagree with who you are, so let's pretend I'm still someone you should count as a friend."

Ah right.

Then, no. Its not about your direct relationship with God. Its about your direct relationship with other people day in day out.

Uh huh. What or which Preacher told you so?

Bazalonia']I don't want to get into a debate but if God says that homosexuality is wrong then he did not design us that way. Why would he make us something that he hates? The answer why at least some of us humans are homosexual is the same answer why we sin. We sin... that sin involves Homosexual, It was not part of God's design or wishes and it is something that we humans are responsible for. Not Him.
Then you do not believe God created us.

Homosexuality is no choice; as such, either it is God's design, or there is no Creator God.

Ah right.

Then, no. Its not about your direct relationship with God. Its about your direct relationship with other people day in day out.

Jesus himself said that there were two commandments that held the law together

Love the lord your God with all your heart

Love your brother as you love yourself

So it is about both your love for God and your love for your fellow man.

And it absolutely is NOT about the relationship between a Critter and his or her Creator, right?

"An absolute relation with the Absolute"? Darling, your Protestant roots are showing.

Wow... that must be about the first time ever I agree with you :)

Armageddon is upon us! :eek:

Homosexuality is no choice; as such, either it is God's design, or there is no Creator God.

There is considerable debate on this matter. While it may not be a 'choice', the word choice oversimplifes the position that it is not inate behaviour. I suggest though we discuss this further in another thread.

Then, no. Its not about your direct relationship with God. Its about your direct relationship with other people day in day out.

Care to explain the story of Abraham and Isaac on that basis?

"An absolute relation with the Absolute"? Darling, your Protestant roots are showing.

And Adonai the Elohim forbid there be a day it were otherwise.

*thanks BWO for saying that* :)

Uh huh. What or which Preacher told you so?

It comes from paying attention to the morals of all of Jesus's actions. If you take the Bible literally, your making life very difficult and very complex for yourself (often ending up on places like NS).

If you boil down the book into a set of minimalist moralistic guides, it is about your interactions with other humans and how you would treat them on a day to day basis.

You don't agree?

There is considerable debate on this matter. While it may not be a 'choice', the word choice oversimplifes the position that it is not inate behaviour. I suggest though we discuss this further in another thread.
This is the appropriate thread; this is the debate at the very heart of the current Anglican split. The guy wants to know what to do - so he needs to know the arguments.

Care to explain the story of Abraham and Isaac on that basis?
I don't take the Bible literally.

Actaully I'll rephrase, when I was a Christian, I didn't take the Bible literally.

Seriously, who wants the sort of "friend" that "hates the sin" when that "sin" is the way you express love for another consenting adult?

One should ask a hell of a lot more of a friend. Then again, I'm known for having standards...

I don't take the Bible literally.

Actaully I'll rephrase, when I was a Christian, I didn't take the Bible literally.

Hokay, care to explain the story of Abraham and Isaac metaphorically on that basis?

Hokay, care to explain the story of Abraham and Isaac metaphorically on that basis?
Split personality? :D

One voice says kills him, another says don't.

*gets comfy & eats popcorn*

I love reading these kinds of threads - sometimes there just laugh out loud funny

It comes from paying attention to the morals of all of Jesus's actions. If you take the Bible literally, your making life very difficult and very complex for yourself (often ending up on places like NS).

If you boil down the book into a set of minimalist moralistic guides, it is about your interactions with other humans and how you would treat them on a day to day basis.

You don't agree?

No, I don't.
It comes from paying attention to the morals of all of Jesus's actions. If you take the Bible literally, your making life very difficult and very complex for yourself
Either Jesus is a big fat liar when he proclaims His divine origin, and therefore his actions are morally suspect, or He is proclaiming the truth about His divine origin, and his actions must be understood within that context.

If you boil down the book into a set of minimalist moralistic guides, it is about your interactions with other humans and how you would treat them on a day to day basis.2 Timothy 3:15-17 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

Seriously, who wants the sort of "friend" that "hates the sin" when that "sin" is the way you express love for another consenting adult?

One should ask a hell of a lot more of a friend. Then again, I'm known for having standards...
I agree, as a Christian I don't think its our job to "hate" anything. Another interesting fact about the comments about living as Jesus did, reading the Gospels, Jesus NEVER mentions homosexuality which is rather interesting.

With respect to the OP this thread is probably not that helpful, I'm finding it very hard just to keep up! I will add that I think the most important thing for them to know is not that you disagree with their lifestyle, but that you still completely accept them and recognise their right to choose how they live their life.

Split personality? :D

One voice says kills him, another says don't.

So it was a literal recording of events then? but just one which was filtered through ancient understanding of abnormal psychology?

just tell him not rub it in your face... erm.. his sexuality that is, not his .. never mind
Laughing. Out. Loud.
ask him to respect you as you should respect him
Good stuff. Seconded.

2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
You can't use a source to prove the reliability of that source.

If I write on a piece of paper a long list of things that 'God wants', and then say at the end, "this is from God and must be taken as truth", that doesn't make it so.

To place complete faith in the Bible you require complete faith in the Bible. It is a circular argument. I much prefer faith in the Bible to be taken in the context of history, reason and love.

Jesus himself said that there were two commandments that held the law together

Love the lord your God with all your heart

Love your brother as you love yourself

So it is about both your love for God and your love for your fellow man.
Just curious, what if you don't love yourself? Not flippant, just wondering.

I don't take the Bible literally.

Actaully I'll rephrase, when I was a Christian, I didn't take the Bible literally.


And I suppose that is why you fell.

Probably listening to the wrong voices. I wish you hadn't listened to those.

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

And I suppose that is why you fell.

Probably listening to the wrong voices. I wish you hadn't listened to those.

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

:D

you rock

So it was a literal recording of events then? but just one which was filtered through ancient understanding of abnormal psychology?
Well, if such an incident did occur, if such people as the two aforementioned actors actually exised.... etc etc.

I never took it literally.

Thats my point.

No I don't
Fair enough.

Either Jesus is a big fat liar when he proclaims His divine origin, and therefore his actions are morally suspect, or He is proclaiming the truth about His divine origin, and his actions must be understood within that context.

Or in fact, secret option Number 3:
Neither.

Again, thats what happens when you take the book seriously. *shrugs*

Seriously, who wants the sort of "friend" that "hates the sin" when that "sin" is the way you express love for another consenting adult?

One should ask a hell of a lot more of a friend. Then again, I'm known for having standards...
While his sexuality might be his way of expressing his love for another person, my faith is the way I express my love for God and I take my actions seriously. I don't hate his lifestyle choice, I simply disagree with it. I don't want to force my beliefs upon him, I just want my actions to properly reflect my faith. If he decides he doesn't want me as a friend, that is his choice and I will respect it.

You can't use a source to prove the reliability of that source.

If I write on a piece of paper a long list of things that 'God wants', and then say at the end, "this is from God and must be taken as truth", that doesn't make it so.

To place complete faith in the Bible you require complete faith in the Bible. It is a circular argument. I much prefer faith in the Bible to be taken in the context of history, reason and love.

I was not using it to prove the authenticity of the Bible, but as a rebuke against interpreting it as a lawbook.
*shrug*
I'm not telling PM how to understand the bible - but he was telling me how to.
I'm telling how I understand it.

While his sexuality might be his way of expressing his love for another person, my faith is the way I express my love for God and I take my actions seriously. I don't hate his lifestyle choice, I simply disagree with it. I don't want to force my beliefs upon him, I just want my actions to properly reflect my faith. If he decides he doesn't want me as a friend, that is his choice and I will respect it.
Sounds like you've got it far more sorted than most people on this forum, I think the best thing you can do is pray rather than ask the advice of people you can't see face to face. People here will use any opportunity just to argue their own point of view, be it enlightened or bigoted.

There is considerable debate on this matter. While it may not be a 'choice', the word choice oversimplifes the position that it is not inate behaviour. I suggest though we discuss this further in another thread.

Whats the difference between it not being a choice and it being inate behaviour?

Well, if such an incident did occur, if such people as the two aforementioned actors actually exised.... etc etc.

I never took it literally.

Thats my point.


Fair enough.


Or in fact, secret option Number 3:
Neither.

Again, thats what happens when you take the book seriously. *shrugs*
If it idn't either, your using the book is a waste of everyone's time - including your own.
In any case, you have nothing useful to add to a christian's.. quest.

You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Well, if such an incident did occur, if such people as the two aforementioned actors actually exised.... etc etc.

I never took it literally.

Yeah, fair enough, but what is the metaphorical meaning of the tale, even if it is entirely fictional - what message was the writer trying to tell us? It certainly seems to be a story where utter devotion to the deity is seen as vastly more important than any notion of inter-human relationships or inter-human morality.

:D

you rock

:fluffle:
Thanks :)

While his sexuality might be his way of expressing his love for another person, my faith is the way I express my love for God and I take my actions seriously. I don't hate his lifestyle choice, I simply disagree with it. I don't want to force my beliefs upon him, I just want my actions to properly reflect my faith. If he decides he doesn't want me as a friend, that is his choice and I will respect it.
If he is a good, loving, caring friend, is the issue of how he chooses to express his sexuality really a problem?

God is love; love is God. To believe that God creates us with sins we can never overcome is to break this connection and leave us not with a loving God, but a Devil, toying with our lives.

:fluffle:
Thanks :)

any time :fluffle:

Yeah, fair enough, but what is the metaphorical meaning of the tale, even if it is entirely fictional - what message was the writer trying to tell us? It certainly seems to be a story where utter devotion to the deity is seen as vastly more important than any notion of inter-human relationships or inter-human morality.

*bows and applauds*

If he is a good, loving, caring friend, is the issue of how he chooses to express his sexuality really an issue?

God is love; love is God. To believe that God creates us with sins we can never overcome is to break this connection and leave us not with a loving God, but a Devil, toying with our lives.
*bows and applauds*

If he is a good, loving, caring friend, is the issue of how he chooses to express his sexuality really a problem?

God is love; love is God. To believe that God creates us with sins we can never overcome is to break this connection and leave us not with a loving God, but a Devil, toying with our lives.

Oo that needs to be made famous that one... well said

Yeah, fair enough, but what is the metaphorical meaning of the tale, even if it is entirely fictional - what message was the writer trying to tell us? It certainly seems to be a story where utter devotion to the deity is seen as vastly more important than any notion of inter-human relationships or inter-human morality.

I'm no theologian, I could only give you what I thought it meant.

Maybe it was about, not taking everything verbatim, hook line and sinker, without question? Maybe it was about listening to your inner conscience to help you live?
*shrug*

Just my idea.

*bows and applauds*

Hey, I'm just cribbing from Kierkegaard here - teleological suspension of the ethical, and all that. The problem it raises though is the nature of the deity as selfish - if God created us all in order to adore him, and not for our own sakes, then we are given a slightly different conception of ourselves compared to the one that mainstream Christianity tries to sell us. Our status is lowered from being that of independent entities with real choices to make and instead we become just ersatz seraphim.

I'm no theologian, I could only give you what I thought it meant.

Maybe it was about, not taking everything verbatim, hook line and sinker, without question? Maybe it was about listening to your inner conscience to help you live?
*shrug*

Just my idea.

Why trust the inner conscience that tells you to stay the hand holding the knife, rather than the inner conscience that told you to butcher your son in the first place?

God is love; love is God.

That only helps if we can understand what love itself is.

While his sexuality might be his way of expressing his love for another person, my faith is the way I express my love for God and I take my actions seriously. I don't hate his lifestyle choice, I simply disagree with it.

"Lifestyle choice." *sigh* :rolleyes:

I don't want to force my beliefs upon him, I just want my actions to properly reflect my faith. If he decides he doesn't want me as a friend, that is his choice and I will respect it.

It is the best option he has if you continue with the nonsense that I just rolled my eyes at. This is not a question of whether he is worthy to be a friend of yours, but whether you are worthy of being a friend of his. IMHO, you aren't.

That only helps if we can understand what love itself is.
Love is love. There are no words to describe it.

Hey, I'm just cribbing from Kierkegaard here - teleological suspension of the ethical, and all that. The problem it raises though is the nature of the deity as selfish - if God created us all in order to adore him, and not for our own sakes, then we are given a slightly different conception of ourselves compared to the one that mainstream Christianity tries to sell us. Our status is lowered from being that of independent entities with real choices to make and instead we become just ersatz seraphim.
I hardly know Kierkegaard from Naess, so I am still amazed.

That lowering of human status does not occur until after one has chosen to change from status. Or one can chose not to. ( if that interpretation is correct. )

You can't pray for progress - and then object to change.

Why trust the inner conscience that tells you to stay the hand holding the knife, rather than the inner conscience that told you to butcher your son in the first place?

Because, unless I had some sort of mental deficiency, I should be able to tell the difference between what is right and what is wrong (i.e not butchering my son vs. butchering him).

Whether that decision to choose right or wrong comes from a book, is another matter. I believe morality presupposes religion. But as we were here trying to help a young guy not hate his gay friend through the medium of Christianity, I decided to wave the usual 'Bible is not real/Religion is a sham/Open your eyes' arguments.

Love is love. There are no words to describe it.

Not according to Socrates :D

If he is a good, loving, caring friend, is the issue of how he chooses to express his sexuality really a problem?

It can be, because if he was a pedophile, and you knew it, you may not want to let him take your little 5 year old daughter on a drive around town. You wouldn't want to invite him along to a sunday school picnic. The sexual orientation of your friend is important, not only for the implications it might have on others, but because a friendship with that person might be confused with an agreement with the sexual orientation of that person. Thus, any sort of friendship with someone who you disagree with has some sort of tension there. The tension, though, need not tear apart the friendship, so long as there is the basic element of respect on both sides. For this to happen, there needs to be a discrimination between the person and their practice. Always respect the person, but not necessarily the practice.



God is love; love is God. To believe that God creates us with sins we can never overcome is to break this connection and leave us not with a loving God, but a Devil, toying with our lives.

I also believe that we are capable of working with God to overcome our sins. However, while I believe that God is describable as love, I totally disagree with the idea that love is God. Love is love. If I love my neighbour, that is because I love God, but that love is not God.

"Lifestyle choice." *sigh* :rolleyes:



It is the best option he has if you continue with the nonsense that I just rolled my eyes at. This is not a question of whether he is worthy to be a friend of yours, but whether you are worthy of being a friend of his. IMHO, you aren't.
Well if you choose your friends based on their choice of vocabulary, you do have high standards.

Because, unless I had some sort of mental deficiency, I should be able to tell the difference between what is right and what is wrong (i.e not butchering my son vs. butchering him).

So, what is the difference between right and wrong?

Love is love. There are no words to describe it.

So there are no words to describe God?

Aside from that question, how literally are we to take the formula 'God is love'. I love my cat. Does that mean that God exists between me and my cat?

this is all fascinating stuff - but does anyone have any advice for the poster on how to handle his friend? which is what he's actually after.

this is all fascinating stuff - but does anyone have any advice for the poster on how to handle his friend? which is what he's actually after.

Yep.
Provided his friend's homosexuality does not relate to him,
not to relate his friendship to his friend's homosexuality.

Sounds aphoristic, but is practical.

So, what is the difference between right and wrong?
Good one.

And I'm not about to get sucked into a philosophical discussion, especially when I have the feeling you would be about to trot out Heidegger, Kierkegaard, Hegel et al to back it up. ;)

Modern European Philosophy was never my forte, I much prefered Eastern or Greek in Uni.

Yep.
Provided his friend's homosexuality does not relate to him,
not to relate his friendship to his friend's homosexuality.

Sounds aphoristic, but is practical.

*nods in agreement*

OK, long time reader, first time poster :D

From July?



Please, I don't want this to turn into a pro/anti gay thread. Neither I nor the forums need another one of those. So please, keep this civil and thanks in advance for your responses.

Your friends' sexual orientation is none of your buisness.

I hardly know Kierkegaard from Naess, so I am still amazed.

*Flings a copy of Fear & Trembling in Bogmarsh's general direction.*


Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."

OK, long time reader, first time poster :D

I'll start by letting it be known that I am a devout Christian, as it's important to the question that I am going to ask.
Basically, a friend I know recently came out as being gay and I am now at the crossroads of what action I should take. I will admit that my knee jerk reaction was to disown them but that quickly faded and I think it was mainly caused by my shock of hearing the news and having had the fact kept from me and others for so long. I am not an extremist in my views (i.e. I am not worried about him coming onto me or catching 'gay' or any of that nonsense) but my faith is very important to me.
My decision now is how I should handle this situation with my friend in regards to my beliefs. I was hoping some fellow Christians on this board may have been in a similar position before and could share their experiences or give me some guidance. I know how the church looks upon homosexuality but to me, I look at the things said in the Bible and I really wonder how big of a deal this really is; I mean while homosexuality is frowned upon in the Bible, it's only mentioned in a few places and isn't one of the seven deadly sins. Also, at least to me, the main message I get from the Bible is that of understanding and love between each other. I certainly don' consider myself to be free of sin so who am I to condemn my friend? However, should I offer him guidance in accordance with my beliefs or should I just ignore the situation completely (I'm not really sure how practical this is). I am honestly not sure what to do.

There is also the matter of how HE will respond to my beliefs, knowing that I am a strong christian and how I feel about his choices but I guess that is up to him and I'll cross that bridge if/when I have made my own decisions.

Please, I don't want this to turn into a pro/anti gay thread. Neither I nor the forums need another one of those. So please, keep this civil and thanks in advance for your responses.

All I'm going to say is that I do have homosexual friends. Nothing wrong with having them as friends.

1 Corinthians 6:9 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


When in doubt, check the manual.

now where in that verse says that they cannot be friends?

I am an Anglican. To say our Church is against homosexuality is to be completely lacking in knowledge of the split currently going on. Ever heard of Gene Robinson?

Did ya hear what Nigerian Anglican Church said on this issue?

What loving God would create people in such a way that they are designed by their very nature to sin just by living, and then condemn these people for the way He has created them? This is not a God I wish to know.

and you are a christian?

Then you do not believe God created us.


Homosexuality is no choice; as such, either it is God's design, or there is no Creator God.

Oh God created us all right. And yes it is a choice and it wasn't by God's design for if you know anything about the Bible, you would know that God frowns on it. Also, if you have read the bible, it is ok to have homosexual tendencies but as long as you do not act on those tendencies, then you are not committing a sexual sin.

I dont have to much to say but but i agree with what some1 said earlier on.

Ok Homosexuality is sin according the Bible. But so is hetrosexual sex outside of marriage and a whole heap of other things. And im sure u havent ditched ur friends because of that. If ur a devout Christian, im assuming that most people will know ur veiws on things, so ur friend prob knows where u stand on that issue. Treat Him how Jesus would treat Him, with (self-sacrificial) love and respect and just be a friend to Him. If he asks u questions, tell he where u stand, but u cant just ditch some1 cause they aint living a life u dont agree with, cause no1 would talk to any1 is that the case,

But yeah, just pray about it mate and ask God for wisdom and You will be shown the right thing to do.

5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him James 1:5 NIV

Taken from http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james%201:4-8;&version=31;9;65;

If he is a good, loving, caring friend, is the issue of how he chooses to express his sexuality really a problem?

God is love; love is God. To believe that God creates us with sins we can never overcome is to break this connection and leave us not with a loving God, but a Devil, toying with our lives.

I hope you know ha Satan toys with us each and every single day right? Yes there are sins that we cannot overcome but it is our faith in Jesus Christ that we are forgiven of our sins and do our best to overcome them even if we fail in the attempt.

I also believe that we are capable of working with God to overcome our sins. However, while I believe that God is describable as love, I totally disagree with the idea that love is God. Love is love. If I love my neighbour, that is because I love God, but that love is not God.

1 John 4:7-8 -- Dear friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is a child of God and knows God. But anyone who does not love does not know God, for GOD IS LOVE.

Unless you are now planning on having sex with your friend or vice versa, I don't see how it's relevant. Good friends are much harder to come by than fellow believers, so one should cherish the friends he has. If you are looking for a good piece of scripture, I would suggest Matthew 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

I hope that helps.

Gotta love religion...creates problems where none need exist, further distracting people from ever accomplishing something important or useful.

If your faith honestly has you worrying about whether or not to shove your bossy little nose into somebody else's sex life, or wondering if maybe you should stop being friends with somebody because he happens to like dudes, then you need to seriously re-examine your priorities (and the priorities of the religious authorities in your life).

You know exactly what you should do. You know exactly how you should treat a friend. You know exactly what it means to be a loving, caring, honorable, respectful human being. You don't need religion to tell you any of that shit.

If you choose to use religion to better your life, then make sure you use the religion instead of letting the religion use you. Don't let your faith get in the way of being a good person. Don't let it slow you down or distract you with this kind of petty bullshit. If your religion seems to be telling you something stupid, then say, "That's bloody stupid. Fuck that noise." Then you can get on with your life and go back to being the good person who you already are.

Gotta love religion...creates problems where none need exist, further distracting people from ever accomplishing something important or useful.

If your faith honestly has you worrying about whether or not to shove your bossy little nose into somebody else's sex life, or wondering if maybe you should stop being friends with somebody because he happens to like dudes, then you need to seriously re-examine your priorities (and the priorities of the religious authorities in your life).

You know exactly what you should do. You know exactly how you should treat a friend. You know exactly what it means to be a loving, caring, honorable, respectful human being. You don't need religion to tell you any of that shit.

If you choose to use religion to better your life, then make sure you use the religion instead of letting the religion use you. Don't let your faith get in the way of being a good person. Don't let it slow you down or distract you with this kind of petty bullshit. If your religion seems to be telling you something stupid, then say, "That's bloody stupid. Fuck that noise." Then you can get on with your life and go back to being the good person who you already are.


Well said, I totaly agree. Shit is that the first time?:confused:

Well said, I totaly agree. Shit is that the first time?:confused:
Don't worry, everybody has a bad day now and again. :)

now where in that verse says that they cannot be friends?


*scratches head*

I've read the entire Book from back to back, and I haven't run across a verse that tell me they can't be friends.

*scratches head*

I've read the entire Book from back to back, and I haven't run across a verse that tell me they can't be friends.

Just the way it came across I guess.

Just the way it came across I guess.

Happens. I'm not greatly bothered about how other folks read my intent.
:)

Convicts on parole are ordered not to fraternize with other convicts. Why is that? It is because people by nature are susceptible to peer pressure, they are a bad influence on each other. This we accept, this we understand. Why do we think it is limited to just convicts on parole?

It’s common sense really. All people are influenced by the people they keep around them, and it’s a choice who we keep around us. If you are an alcoholic and you want to stop drinking, you shouldn’t be hanging out with your “friends” at the bar. If you want to love your wife and be faithful to your marriage vows, you shouldn’t hang out with guys that cheat on their wives and sit at the strip bar every night picking up prostitutes. If you want your thoughts to be on God and things that are Holy, you shouldn’t be hanging out with non-believers who have a disdain for God and worshipers.

1 Thessalonians 4 1-8
1Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

3It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, 5not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.


1 Thessalonians 5 16-22
16Be joyful always; 17pray continually; 18give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

19Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil.

I think you know what you are supposed to do. Pray for your friend but mind yourself and who you hang out with.

Colossians 3 1-4
1Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

2 Corinthians 6
14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
17"Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."
18"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

Wasn't Jesus friends with Mary Magdalen? And wasn't she a prostitute? And doesn't God frown on the world's oldest profession? What I don't remember is whether Jesus brought up Mary's vocation much with her. I suspect he might have done.

Anyway, I think your friend's religion or lack thereof may be an important factor. What are his views on the bible's references to homosexuality? I can't tell you what to do, no one here can.

As someone who can't actually identify with many Christians on many an issue, to me there is absolutely nothing to worry about. His sexuality is absolutely none of your business, you don't have to like it, but to let it get in the way of your friendship would be foolish and selfish.

His being Gay doesn't affect your relationship with your god. Although I do get why you are asking, I mean, if you continue to be his friend without judgement are you condoning his sexual activities? And if so, how will god see you? I get how that is difficult for you, but as others have said, the bible doesn't seem to imply that you should avoid being friends with someone who shags other men.

Convicts on parole are ordered not to fraternize with other convicts. Why is that? It is because people by nature are susceptible to peer pressure, they are a bad influence on each other. This we accept, this we understand. Why do we think it is limited to just convicts on parole?

It’s common sense really. All people are influenced by the people they keep around them, and it’s a choice who we keep around us. If you are an alcoholic and you want to stop drinking, you shouldn’t be hanging out with your “friends” at the bar. If you want to love your wife and be faithful to your marriage vows, you shouldn’t hang out with guys that cheat on their wives and sit at the strip bar every night picking up prostitutes. If you want your thoughts to be on God and things that are Holy, you shouldn’t be hanging out with non-believers who have a disdain for God and worshipers.

-biblical snip-

If you only care for yourself, then that may be the path to take. But Christians are also commanded to be a light to others who need the strength to overcome their sin. You can't do that by avoiding sinners or locking yourself away in some sort of sanctified safehouse. Sin is everywhere in the world, whether in the people around you or in your own heart. You must fight it and lead others away from sin by example and actions. Don't give up on your friends just because they sin, because that would be incredible hypocrisy.

I know that there has been plenty of advice shown so far, but I'd just like to throw in my own two cents.

It is in my opinion that your faith is between you and God. No one else can tell you how you should act. Do not look to the Bible, it is too contradictory, look inwards. What do you think? Is there ANY reason why you and the other guy shouldn't be friends?

I would say "to hell with dogma" (and this is coming from a Catholic), and stick with your buddy. But I cannot tell you what to do. I can only say that you must do what you think is right, and let NO ONE else stand in your way.

NOTE: And if you do plan to stick with your friend, and run across some shmucks who'll take it upon themselves to condemn you and your friend to hell, be unChristian for once, and tell them to shove it.

It can be, because if he was a pedophile, and you knew it, you may not want to let him take your little 5 year old daughter on a drive around town. You wouldn't want to invite him along to a sunday school picnic. The sexual orientation of your friend is important, not only for the implications it might have on others, but because a friendship with that person might be confused with an agreement with the sexual orientation of that person.
So, are you saying that the OP shouldn't take his/her friend to a gay bar? I suspect that the OP wouldn't be particularly interested in going to gay bars in the first place.

Or are you implying that the gay friend might just jump on any male around (inc OP if appropriate, ie, if they are male) regardless of consent? If so, you are confusing homosexuals with rapists, not good.

I'm not a Christian, but I can give you a paraphrased version of some advice the late great C.S. Lewis gave to a friend of his who was in a bind not at all dissimilar to yours:

Don't condemn him; help him bear his cross, encourage him to be celibate, help him give it up to God and ask the Almighty for advice.

For that's how Lewis saw homosexuality; a disability that can be overcome through faith.

I'll add an additional piece of advice: Since you believe in prayer, pray. HARD.

OK, long time reader, first time poster :D

I'll start by letting it be known that I am a devout Christian, as it's important to the question that I am going to ask.
Basically, a friend I know recently came out as being gay and I am now at the crossroads of what action I should take. I will admit that my knee jerk reaction was to disown them but that quickly faded and I think it was mainly caused by my shock of hearing the news and having had the fact kept from me and others for so long. I am not an extremist in my views (i.e. I am not worried about him coming onto me or catching 'gay' or any of that nonsense) but my faith is very important to me.
My decision now is how I should handle this situation with my friend in regards to my beliefs. I was hoping some fellow Christians on this board may have been in a similar position before and could share their experiences or give me some guidance. I know how the church looks upon homosexuality but to me, I look at the things said in the Bible and I really wonder how big of a deal this really is; I mean while homosexuality is frowned upon in the Bible, it's only mentioned in a few places and isn't one of the seven deadly sins. Also, at least to me, the main message I get from the Bible is that of understanding and love between each other. I certainly don' consider myself to be free of sin so who am I to condemn my friend? However, should I offer him guidance in accordance with my beliefs or should I just ignore the situation completely (I'm not really sure how practical this is). I am honestly not sure what to do.

There is also the matter of how HE will respond to my beliefs, knowing that I am a strong christian and how I feel about his choices but I guess that is up to him and I'll cross that bridge if/when I have made my own decisions.

Please, I don't want this to turn into a pro/anti gay thread. Neither I nor the forums need another one of those. So please, keep this civil and thanks in advance for your responses.

I am sorry, I got here late, didn't read the rest of the thred.

Do you condemn your friend? no, it's not your place, God did not put Christians in the world to condemn anyone, the Bible says "Love your neighbor" so that's what you do.

As far as the "being gay isn't one of the seven deadly sins" I happen to be a protestant who believes that all sin is the same in terms of a heaven/hell perspective. It's unfair to judge people for thier sins, since you commit your own. His sin is NONE of your business, as I stated above, it's your job to love him only.

You can be his friend, pray for him, listen to him, talk to him, ect. It's not your place to tell him if you think his "being gay" is a sin, or if it's wrong or whatever, that's between him and God, and you are not in any place to disturb that. ;)

Just curious, what if you don't love yourself? Not flippant, just wondering.

Its better phrased "Treet others as you would be treeted"

It can be, because if he was a pedophile, and you knew it, you may not want to let him take your little 5 year old daughter on a drive around town. You wouldn't want to invite him along to a sunday school picnic.
This bit is totally irrelevant; heterosexuals are more likely, statistically, to be pedophiles than homosexuals, so why bring this up in this context?


The sexual orientation of your friend is important, not only for the implications it might have on others, but because a friendship with that person might be confused with an agreement with the sexual orientation of that person.
Who cares if you "agree" with his sexual orientation or not? A good friend would recognize that somebody else's sexual orientation is between them and whatever consenting party they become involved with. Unless you intend to pursue a romantic relationship with them, their sexual orientation is irrelevant to your friendship.

...
You can be his friend, pray for him, listen to him, talk to him, ect. It's not your place to tell him if you think his "being gay" is a sin, or if it's wrong or whatever, that's between him and God, and you are not in any place to disturb that. ;)

Really? What if his 'sin' is beating on his wife? Should you do nothing and remain his friend becuase it's wrong or whatever to judge? What if it's spending his family's grocery money at the casino, what if it's smoking crack in your garage wehn he visits?

Really? What if his 'sin' is beating on his wife? Should you do nothing and remain his friend becuase it's wrong or whatever to judge? What if it's spending his family's grocery money at the casino, what if it's smoking crack in your garage wehn he visits?
Each of those examples refers to behaviors that injure another party. Consentual sexual relations do not fall under the same heading.

Haven't read all the posts so I'll answer the original.

Jesus spent his time with sinners. Biblically homosexuality is a sin but so are thousands of things each of us do everyday. And biblically all sins are equal.

Christianity only has two rules. Follow the second. Love as you would wish to be loved.

Each of those examples refers to behaviors that injure another party. Consentual sexual relations do not fall under the same heading.
that's what I was going to say, thanks Bottle. :)

that's what I was going to say, thanks Bottle. :)
I probably should have left it to you, since I'm getting bloody sick and tired of explaining the concept of "CONSENT" over and over again.

Let's see, beating one's wife, versus falling in love with a person of the same gender. Can we spot how these two things are different?

Gambling away one's family's savings, versus building a life with a same-sex partner. Can you name a few ways these two are not the same?

Smoking an illegal drug on somebody else's property (presumably without their consent), versus having consentual sex with another person. Can we see where these two things might differ just a tad?

Honestly, people, get a grip.

I probably should have left it to you, since I'm getting bloody sick and tired of explaining the concept of "CONSENT" over and over again.

Let's see, beating one's wife, versus falling in love with a person of the same gender. Can we spot how these two things are different?

Gambling away one's family's savings, versus building a life with a same-sex partner. Can you name a few ways these two are not the same?

Smoking an illegal drug on somebody else's property (presumably without their consent), versus having consentual sex with another person. Can we see where these two things might differ just a tad?

Honestly, people, get a grip.
I could argue that it's really none of his business to do anything about any of that without the consent of the person wronged either.

It's much better to deal with what you actually have authority over, and if you were a woman getting beaten you would have authority over your body and you could enlist whatever help you wanted/needed to get out of the situation.

Each of those examples refers to behaviors that injure another party. Consentual sexual relations do not fall under the same heading.

Although it should be pointed out there are those consensual sexual behaviours which do in fact involve injury to the party or parties invovled, this is here, however, irrelevant in the case of homosexuality qua homosexuality.

OK, long time reader, first time poster :D

I'll start by letting it be known that I am a devout Christian, as it's important to the question that I am going to ask.
Basically, a friend I know recently came out as being gay and I am now at the crossroads of what action I should take. I will admit that my knee jerk reaction was to disown them but that quickly faded and I think it was mainly caused by my shock of hearing the news and having had the fact kept from me and others for so long. I am not an extremist in my views (i.e. I am not worried about him coming onto me or catching 'gay' or any of that nonsense) but my faith is very important to me.
My decision now is how I should handle this situation with my friend in regards to my beliefs. I was hoping some fellow Christians on this board may have been in a similar position before and could share their experiences or give me some guidance. I know how the church looks upon homosexuality but to me, I look at the things said in the Bible and I really wonder how big of a deal this really is; I mean while homosexuality is frowned upon in the Bible, it's only mentioned in a few places and isn't one of the seven deadly sins. Also, at least to me, the main message I get from the Bible is that of understanding and love between each other. I certainly don' consider myself to be free of sin so who am I to condemn my friend? However, should I offer him guidance in accordance with my beliefs or should I just ignore the situation completely (I'm not really sure how practical this is). I am honestly not sure what to do.

There is also the matter of how HE will respond to my beliefs, knowing that I am a strong christian and how I feel about his choices but I guess that is up to him and I'll cross that bridge if/when I have made my own decisions.

Please, I don't want this to turn into a pro/anti gay thread. Neither I nor the forums need another one of those. So please, keep this civil and thanks in advance for your responses.

how would you react if one straight friend came up and said he slept with his girl friend (Forication). Would you be considering disowning him.... sex out of wed lock is the same sin for both straights and gays. No more importance is put on homosexual intercorse then Heterosexual forincation... just think about that for a moment.

I probably should have left it to you, since I'm getting bloody sick and tired of explaining the concept of "CONSENT" over and over again.

Let's see, beating one's wife, versus falling in love with a person of the same gender. Can we spot how these two things are different?

Gambling away one's family's savings, versus building a life with a same-sex partner. Can you name a few ways these two are not the same?

Smoking an illegal drug on somebody else's property (presumably without their consent), versus having consentual sex with another person. Can we see where these two things might differ just a tad?

Honestly, people, get a grip.


Now that we've established that there IS a limit, we can continue.

What if your best friend is sleeping with prostitutes and he insists that it's okay to tell everyone that he thinks it's okay, including telling your children that he thinks it's no worse than anything else.

What if he and his wife think wife swapping orgy parties are no worse than any other sin and that you should accept him the way his is, and your children know what it does because 'he's not ashamed' of what he does and neither should his friends be ashamed of the way God made him and his desires...

What if he thinks vulgar language (I'm talking about sexual description, not swearing) is acceptable and everyone should have to put up with whatever he wants to talk about, where ever and whenever.

What if he thinks the age of consenting adults is lower than you think it should be?

As a Christian, which is what the OP asked for, one shouldn’t bring into our houses the 'acceptance' of things that are sinful, and physical lust and physical sexual sins are the same as the others, be it heterosexual or homosexual, it makes no difference.

how would you react if one straight friend came up and said he slept with his girl friend (Forication). Would you be considering disowning him.... sex out of wed lock is the same sin for both straights and gays. No more importance is put on homosexual intercorse then Heterosexual forincation... just think about that for a moment.

Why do people think Christians shouldn't 'shun' (for the lack of a better word) heterosexual sinners as well? Christians should confront and pray and have patience for everyone, but in the end, they shouldn't accept a non-repentant sinner to indefinately mingle with them socially .

Now that we've established that there IS a limit, we can continue.

What if your best friend is sleeping with prostitutes and he insists that it's okay to tell everyone that he thinks it's okay, including telling your children that he thinks it's no worse than anything else.
your children are your business, he is not. You are not the cops, you are not God, you aren't even his mommy. If he is breaking the law, call the cops (although you may not be able to prove it) if not, leave him alone, it's none of your business.

What if he and his wife think wife swapping orgy parties are no worse than any other sin and that you should accept him the way his is, and your children know what it does because 'he's not ashamed' of what he does and neither should his friends be ashamed of the way God made him and his desires...
it's not your business what he does in the bedroom. If you don't want to hang out with someone you aren't required to. It's not the same as asking "should I condemn my friend?" there is a difference between saying "I think we should part ways" and saying "you are going to hell sinner"


What if he thinks vulgar language (I'm talking about sexual description, not swearing) is acceptable and everyone should have to put up with whatever he wants to talk about, where ever and whenever.
it's none of your business, you are not the supreme ruler of the universe whose job it is to make everyone live exactly like you wish them to be. If you don't like someone don't hang out with them.

What if he thinks the age of consenting adults is lower than you think it should be?
what if he thinks drugs should be legalized?:eek:

You are grasping at straws, if you don't like someone don't hang out with them, if you do, and you want to be thier friend realize there are things that are beyond your control and that you have no authority over, and quit trying to be "god" in everyone's life.

As a Christian, which is what the OP asked for, one shouldn’t bring into our houses the 'acceptance' of things that are sinful, and physical lust and physical sexual sins are the same as the others, be it heterosexual or homosexual, it makes no difference.
As a Christian I am called to love my neighbor, and to realize that Romans 3:23 is talking to me too, everyone has sinned, I am not in any authority to go through and say "this sin is worse than mine and you will go to hell" or anything like that. I can keep my house however I want, I don't need you or anyone else to tell me what "Christians" do, it's between me and God.

OK, long time reader, first time poster :D

I'll start by letting it be known that I am a devout Christian, as it's important to the question that I am going to ask.
Basically, a friend I know recently came out as being gay and I am now at the crossroads of what action I should take. I will admit that my knee jerk reaction was to disown them but that quickly faded and I think it was mainly caused by my shock of hearing the news and having had the fact kept from me and others for so long. I am not an extremist in my views (i.e. I am not worried about him coming onto me or catching 'gay' or any of that nonsense) but my faith is very important to me.
My decision now is how I should handle this situation with my friend in regards to my beliefs. I was hoping some fellow Christians on this board may have been in a similar position before and could share their experiences or give me some guidance. I know how the church looks upon homosexuality but to me, I look at the things said in the Bible and I really wonder how big of a deal this really is; I mean while homosexuality is frowned upon in the Bible, it's only mentioned in a few places and isn't one of the seven deadly sins. Also, at least to me, the main message I get from the Bible is that of understanding and love between each other. I certainly don' consider myself to be free of sin so who am I to condemn my friend? However, should I offer him guidance in accordance with my beliefs or should I just ignore the situation completely (I'm not really sure how practical this is). I am honestly not sure what to do.

There is also the matter of how HE will respond to my beliefs, knowing that I am a strong christian and how I feel about his choices but I guess that is up to him and I'll cross that bridge if/when I have made my own decisions.

Please, I don't want this to turn into a pro/anti gay thread. Neither I nor the forums need another one of those. So please, keep this civil and thanks in advance for your responses.


I'm a bisexual, and a "devout" Pentacostal Christian.

None of my friends have a problem with it. Why should you?

Worry about your own problems.

I could argue that it's really none of his business to do anything about any of that without the consent of the person wronged either.

It may or may not be his business to do something about those behaviors, but my point was that THOSE would be good reasons to question a friendship.

Why would you want to be friends with the kind of pathetic scum who assaults his wife? Why would you want to be friends with somebody who breaks the law on your property without your consent? Why would you want to be friends with the kind of person who enjoys hurting others?

It may or may not be his business to do something about those behaviors, but my point was that THOSE would be good reasons to question a friendship.

Why would you want to be friends with the kind of pathetic scum who assaults his wife? Why would you want to be friends with somebody who breaks the law on your property without your consent? Why would you want to be friends with the kind of person who enjoys hurting others?
true.

The OP (from what I gather) wanted to know what his "job" was as a Christian. My job as a Christian isn't to go around condemning people.

If the OP wants to know whether or not to stay friends, it's really up to him, like I said "if you don't like someone don't hang out with them"

We all know, as good Christians, that Homosexuality is a sin, and a serious one at that.

However, that does not make them horrible, awful, evil. We are all sinners, and should be more quick to review our own lives before we examine the lives of others. O ye hypocrites, first seek to remove the beam from thine own eye, then shalt thou see clearly to remove the mote from thy brother's eye.

Having said that, that does not mean we accept the sin, nor deem it unfixable.

Do do so would deny the great atoning sacrifice of our Savior. He suffered all things that we may overcome. There is no sin, no burden, no habit, no lifestyle, NOTHING that we cannot overcome in Christ. To say that homosexuality cannot be changed is a gross denial of the power of God.
That also doesn't mean we shove repentance down their throats.
We Must be kind, tolerant, patient, and understanding. And we must not give up, nor be harsh.

That is our obligation as Christians- To love and give to our fellow man, and INVITE all to come unto Christ and help them in their journey through life.

It may or may not be his business to do something about those behaviors, but my point was that THOSE would be good reasons to question a friendship.

Why would you want to be friends with the kind of pathetic scum who assaults his wife? Why would you want to be friends with somebody who breaks the law on your property without your consent? Why would you want to be friends with the kind of person who enjoys hurting others?

I might wish to be friends with someone who prostitutes, or robs, or thieves, in order to support a drug-addiction ( or any oher reason ) for no other reasons than that I cannot help them without befriending them, and that to help those who need such help is my calling.

I don't see how I can carry out my tasks otherwise.

Now that we've established that there IS a limit, we can continue.

What if your best friend is sleeping with prostitutes and he insists that it's okay to tell everyone that he thinks it's okay, including telling your children that he thinks it's no worse than anything else.

If your friend is sleeping with prostitutes, that's his business. If he feels the need to bring it up in conversation, and if it bothers you, then voice your opinion...if he continues to do it, then he's being a jerk toward you, and you should question your friendship for THAT reason.

And if you have a friend who is having sexual discussions with your (minor) children without your knowledge or consent, that person is behaving totally inappropriately no matter what they're telling the kids. It is for THAT reason that you should question his friendship.


What if he and his wife think wife swapping orgy parties are no worse than any other sin and that you should accept him the way his is, and your children know what it does because 'he's not ashamed' of what he does and neither should his friends be ashamed of the way God made him and his desires...

Same deal. What he and his wife choose to do is perfectly fine. If you feel uncomfortable hearing about it, but he persists in telling you after you have made your discomfort known, then he is acting like a jerk. Just as he would be if he persisted in (for example) trying to convert you to his religion even after you told him that it made you uncomfortable.

Once again, with the kids, if you have a friend who is describing orgy sex to your children without your permission or consent, then THAT is the problem. THAT is the behavior that is inappropriate.


What if he thinks vulgar language (I'm talking about sexual description, not swearing) is acceptable and everyone should have to put up with whatever he wants to talk about, where ever and whenever.

That's called "rudeness." You can request that he not use certain words in your presence or in your home, and if he chooses not to respect that then he's being a jerk.

However, if you try to tell him that he can't swear ANYWHERE, then you are being a jerk. The world does not belong to you, and not everybody feels the way you do about swearing.


What if he thinks the age of consenting adults is lower than you think it should be?

Then you both should familiarize yourself with the laws in your area, so that you both are aware of what the age of consent actually is. If one (or both) of you disagree with the existing laws, that's your business. If you choose to act in ways that violate the existing laws, you should be prepared to face legal consequences.


As a Christian, which is what the OP asked for, one shouldn’t bring into our houses the 'acceptance' of things that are sinful, and physical lust and physical sexual sins are the same as the others, be it heterosexual or homosexual, it makes no difference.
If you want to believe that consentual sexual relations or romantic relationships are sinful, that's your business. If you are willing to throw away a friendship over such things, then he's better off without such "friends" anyhow.

I might wish to be friends with someone who prostitutes, or robs, or thieves, in order to support a drug-addiction ( or any oher reason ) for no other reasons than that I cannot help them without befriending them, and that to help those who need such help is my calling.

I don't see how I can carry out my tasks otherwise.
Personally, I don't feel that this would qualify as "friendship." I don't know what word would fit better, but I certainly would not view a person as my "friend" if they were only being friendly toward me in order to try to alter me in some way.

true.

The OP (from what I gather) wanted to know what his "job" was as a Christian. My job as a Christian isn't to go around condemning people.

If the OP wants to know whether or not to stay friends, it's really up to him, like I said "if you don't like someone don't hang out with them"
That's a good breakdown of it, yeah.

If you only care for yourself, then that may be the path to take. But Christians are also commanded to be a light to others who need the strength to overcome their sin. You can't do that by avoiding sinners or locking yourself away in some sort of sanctified safehouse. Sin is everywhere in the world, whether in the people around you or in your own heart. You must fight it and lead others away from sin by example and actions. Don't give up on your friends just because they sin, because that would be incredible hypocrisy.

Well said Sane Outcasts.

It may or may not be his business to do something about those behaviors, but my point was that THOSE would be good reasons to question a friendship.

Why would you want to be friends with the kind of pathetic scum who assaults his wife? Why would you want to be friends with somebody who breaks the law on your property without your consent? Why would you want to be friends with the kind of person who enjoys hurting others?

How does a thread about being friends with a homosexual turn into about a man who beats his wife?

How does a thread about being friends with a homosexual turn into about a man who beats his wife?
Haven't you heard? Having a consentual relationship with a person of the same sex is exactly equivalent to beating your wife! It's also the same as raping children!

*eye roll*

Haven't you heard? Having a consentual relationship with a person of the same sex is exactly equivalent to beating your wife! It's also the same as raping children!

*eye roll*

I don't even like the concept of "Consensual" relationships, but even that reasoning has me about as confused as you do. Who made that connection?

I don't even like the concept of "Consensual" relationships, but even that reasoning has me about as confused as you do. Who made that connection?
PootWaddle, you can scroll up to see it!

I don't even like the concept of "Consensual" relationships,

Why don't you like consentual relationships?


but even that reasoning has me about as confused as you do. Who made that connection?
Read up the page a bit.

Why don't you like consentual relationships?

Because, like most people with my views, I see such relationships (outside marriage) as morally deteriorating to our society and is the cause of many societal problems. Usually they involve children these days, and they just haven't done anything productive for society, but have been very detrimental. I'm one of those that believes in complete and total abstinence before marriage, and complete and total fidelity in a marriage.

Accept him, and don't treat him any differently than you did when you thought he was straight. God loves gays, so I believe that She (I don't believe that God is a He) loves them all anyways. I don't have a Bible right now so I can't exactly tell you where everyhting is, but there is a lot of "love thy neighbor" in there, and for all we know, all the "admonitions" for gays might have been against prostitution. And when did Jesus say something about gays...?

The quesiton is, can you normally be friends with and interact with someone you consider to be evil?

You're not evil. Nothing about his evil affects you. So I don't see why it should matter to you that your friend is an abomination, and defies God and all of his works.

Be his friend.

Because, like most people with my views, I see such relationships (outside marriage) as morally deteriorating to our society and is the cause of many societal problems.

Wait, so you think that consentual relationships damage society?! Are you really saying that society would be better off if we only permitted non-consentual relationships?


Usually they involve children these days, and they just haven't done anything productive for society, but have been very detrimental. I'm one of those that believes in complete and total abstinence before marriage, and complete and total fidelity in a marriage.Is there confusion about what "consent" means? I mean, at least where I come from, the theory is that marriage must be a consentual relationship in order to be legally valid...if one party is forced into a marriage against their will, the marriage isn't binding. Are you saying marriages only are "productive" if one or both parties does not consent?

Because, like most people with my views, I see such relationships (outside marriage) as morally deteriorating to our society and is the cause of many societal problems. Usually they involve children these days, and they just haven't done anything productive for society, but have been very detrimental. I'm one of those that believes in complete and total abstinence before marriage, and complete and total fidelity in a marriage.
I don't know about where you come from, but where I'm from the vast majority of pre-marital sex does not result in pregnancy.

Also, many people cannot afford to buy their first house if they are single, unmarried couples (plus groups of friends, single people with their parents etc) have to apply together to get a mortgage because house prices are so high. I'd say that this kind of relationship is beneficial to society as it keeps the property market ticking over (slowly) rather than crashing. Also, double income households are more able to spend their money commercially (which any capitalist or disgruntled realist will tell you is essential in our society).

The only thing that can be seen as detrimental about pre-marital sex is that it perhaps lowers morals in general having a ripple effect. But this is dependent upon everyone agreeing what is "moral", which we obviously don't. This is a dubious argument at best.