NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060705/ap_on_re_af/somalia_world_cup_2

Of course, this crime wasn't motivated by Islam, now was it?

meh

Im not surprised.

Find me the passage in the Khoran (sp?) where it says watching the world cup is evil and I'll agree with you.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060705/ap_on_re_af/somalia_world_cup_2

Of course, this crime wasn't motivated by Islam, now was it?
Maybe the shooters had a lot of money riding on the Germans and were upset.

We must respect their culture.

Somalia was once such a relatively free place too…

As for your smug remark toward Islam, all religions are filthy corruptions of the human condition, not just Islam.

I'd previously defended the warlords and their libertarian rule.

It seems we've now seen the alternative.

Find me the passage in the Khoran (sp?) where it says watching the world cup is evil and I'll agree with you.The Saudis had a team there, but then, they're probably too liberal for these guys in Somalia. I mean, look, the group's name translates as "United Islamic Courts," it ought to be easy to predict how they'll react.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060705/ap_on_re_af/somalia_world_cup_2

Of course, this crime wasn't motivated by Islam, now was it?

Fundamentalist Islam, yes.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060705/ap_on_re_af/somalia_world_cup_2

Of course, this crime wasn't motivated by Islam, now was it?

Let me put it this way. I imagine it was no less motivated by Islam than the Crusades were by Christianity. I'll let you take that as you will.

Again, insane Muslim fundies.

Again, insane Muslim fundies.
These particular ones, yes, but any fundementalists are dangerous. You cannot debate them or even discuss an issue with them. At best, they'll feel sorry for you because you're not one of the Chosen Few; at worst, you might want to check under your car each time you go to start it up. Before the end of some of our lifetimes, we will be struggling with religious fundementalism in forms that would horrify us now.

"It's a beautiful day in the Middle-East, a beautiful day in the Middle-East. Won't you be my, won't you be my terrorist..."

Let me put it this way. I imagine it was no less motivated by Islam than the Crusades were by Christianity. I'll let you take that as you will.

So you're saying that Islam is culturally in the Dark Ages?

So you're saying that Islam is culturally in the Dark Ages?
As regards their outlook on Europe and the West? Yes, absolutely. The Crusades froze Islam in a defensive posture that they have never relinquished. I'm not defending the Crusades, by any means, which were, in a sense, a last-minute continuation of the migration of peoples that knock down the western Roman Empire. But Islam has never gotten over it and they should. Forget? No. Forgive? Maybe. Move on? Definitely.

As regards their outlook on Europe and the West? Yes, absolutely. The Crusades froze Islam in a defensive posture that they have never relinquished. I'm not defending the Crusades, by any means, which were, in a sense, a last-minute continuation of the migration of peoples that knock down the western Roman Empire. But Islam has never gotten over it and they should. Forget? No. Forgive? Maybe. Move on? Definitely.
Absoulutely, absoulutely, absoulutely, absoulutely, absoulutely, absoulutely! I have been saying it for ages, and I'm glad someone else can see it.

lol Africans

Somalia was once such a relatively free place too…

As for your smug remark toward Islam, all religions are filthy corruptions of the human condition, not just Islam.


Islam is the only one that actively calls for the killing of those who don't believe...so yes, this is an Islam specific event.

As for your hatred for religion...there are plenty religions (Judaism for one) that isn't a corruption of anything and advocates the goodness of all human kind...get over your anti-religious trip.

Yes, only Islam is the sole religion in the world with sociopathic fringe groups in them.

:rolleyes:

It's Talibanism all over again and this time the United States has no interest in liberating this country.

The media propaganda has officially gotten to me.
I'm starting to appreciate Bush's war campaign more and more, everyday.

Islam is the only one that actively calls for the killing of those who don't believe...so yes, this is an Islam specific event.

As for your hatred for religion...there are plenty religions (Judaism for one) that isn't a corruption of anything and advocates the goodness of all human kind...get over your anti-religious trip.
Remember Pat Robinson right after Sharon had that stroke?
Remember how he said it was for giving away Gaza?
Thus, Islam is not the only religion that wants to kill those who don't beleive.

And as a Jew who knows enough about Judaism to say something on this, Judaism is not more peaceful then Islam in any way.
Both of our religion books have wars we fought RIGHT IN THERE, for god's sake.
(Pun intended.)
And considering Christianity has a passage that calls for the killing of everyone who doesn't want to be Christian, I'd say it's not more peaceful either.

...and Sheni hits the nail squarely on the head. Christian, Muslim, Jew - you're all bonkers, you know that. All of you, solo, in pairs, or all three together. Nuttier than fruitcakes. Batty as baseball diamonds.

The pity of it is, you subscribers to Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah are going to run the rest of us down with you when you make up your minds to stampede. Damn it. Couldn't we maybe build an international freak-out zone, some unused island somewheres, where people could just go freak out over God or whatever and get it out of their systems so they don't go inflicting all this pent-up religious angst on everything in their path, and go mucking things up for all concerned?

C'mon. What's Madagascar to anybody, really?

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j315/crashcow/NSG/Freakoutica.jpg

The Crusades froze Islam in a defensive posture that they have never relinquished. I'm not defending the Crusades, by any means, which were, in a sense, a last-minute continuation of the migration of peoples that knock down the western Roman Empire.

The Islamic view on the Crusades:

We invade and overrun Christian territory: that's good because God said we could.

You invade and attempt to liberate formerly Christian territory: that's bad and we hates Christianses for ever!

In other words, what's ours is ours forever, and what's yours is yours until we overrun it, then it's ours forever. Dar al-Islam vs. Dar al-Harb.

Update:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5153800.stm

The Somali gunmen who shot dead two people watching a World Cup match have been arrested and will face Islamic justice, an Islamist leader has said.
Hardliner Sheikh Dahir Aweys says the killing of a cinema owner and a young girl was an accident. The gunmen could face the death penalty.

As regards their outlook on Europe and the West? Yes, absolutely. The Crusades froze Islam in a defensive posture that they have never relinquished. I'm not defending the Crusades, by any means, which were, in a sense, a last-minute continuation of the migration of peoples that knock down the western Roman Empire. But Islam has never gotten over it and they should. Forget? No. Forgive? Maybe. Move on? Definitely.

Actually, it was more world war 1 when we went into their culture divided it up arabia and broke it down that has them stuck in "Defensive mode".

In England it wouldn't be shocking if a portugese man was beat to death after we lost to them in the world cup.

Update:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5153800.stm

Interesting, the death penalty. Good on 'em.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060705/ap_on_re_af/somalia_world_cup_2

Of course, this crime wasn't motivated by Islam, now was it?
"Somalia has been without an effective government since largely clan-based warlords overthrew longtime dictator Mohamed Siad Barre in 1991 and then turned on each other, dividing the nation into a patchwork of rival fiefdoms."

Good God! Has it been 15 years??? :eek:

... Christianity has a passage that calls for the killing of everyone who doesn't want to be Christian ...
It does??? Where???? :eek:

This remind me this spanish bishop, Cañizares, that calls for civil disobedience since he is far right and the government is left-wing... a LOL itself

USians, I change your conservatives by our ones!

Is christianism a religion of peace? Let's see...

=====================================================
San Lucas (12, 49-53) "Jesús dijo: Penseis que vine a traer paz al mundo?. NO vine a traer paz, sino espada. Porque vine a separar al hombre de su padre, a la hija de su madre, a la nuera de su suegra. Los enemigos del hombre, seran los mismos de su casa. Porque el que ama a su padre o a su madre más que amí, no es digno de mi; y el que ama a su hijo o a su hija más que a mi, NO es digno de mi. El que quiera salvar su vida, la perderá y el que la pierde por mí, la encontrará".

San Lucas 12, 49-50. Jesus dijo: “Vine a traer fuego a la tierra, ¡y cuanto deseo ya que arda!.
======================================================

...and Sheni hits the nail squarely on the head. Christian, Muslim, Jew - you're all bonkers, you know that. All of you, solo, in pairs, or all three together. Nuttier than fruitcakes. Batty as baseball diamonds.

The pity of it is, you subscribers to Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah are going to run the rest of us down with you when you make up your minds to stampede. Damn it. Couldn't we maybe build an international freak-out zone, some unused island somewheres, where people could just go freak out over God or whatever and get it out of their systems so they don't go inflicting all this pent-up religious angst on everything in their path, and go mucking things up for all concerned?

C'mon. What's Madagascar to anybody, really?

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j315/crashcow/NSG/Freakoutica.jpg

I apprecieate your bigoted, Orwellian response to the beliefs and convictions of people. I'm Catholic and don't go around killing people. Blame the individual, not the group.

I apprecieate your bigoted, Orwellian response to the beliefs and convictions of people. I'm Catholic and don't go around killing people. Blame the individual, not the group.
While you may indeed appreciate my response, it's quite obvious that you have no appreciation of less-than-subtle humour. Hats off to you for not "going around killing anybody"; unfortunately, as that has nothing whatsoever to do with my previous post - and therefore falls flatter and faster than lead balloons.

Perhaps you could take the time to expound upon my supposed 'Orwellian'-ism a bit further, as I'm unclear as to what the author of 'Homage to Catalonia' has to do with my idea for 'Grand Isla Di Freakoutica'. Please do elucidate further, I'll no doubt relish the opportunity to see how the mind of an unamused and upright stiff - erm, Catholic - works.

Oh, and that last bit about individuals vs. groups? Blow it out your backside sonny - my ancestors were put to the torch by the Inquisition, so don't go telling me that I'm not to lay blame for vicious actions of blind hatred at the feet of organizations that are responsible for human suffering and misery.

Try lecturing me about bigotry after your "Mother Church" apologizes profusely for willfully ignoring the message and Spirit of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Son of Jehovah - willfully ignoring the teachings of Christ himself and causing tremendous, needless and dare I say barbaric suffering.

While I, sir, may be possessed of an undeniably mischievious sense of humour - though perhaps not quite as keen or sharp a wit as that of Jonathan Swift - at least I am cognizant of where I stand, and where my ancestors have stood, in relation to Rome, Mecca and Jerusalem; namely, as far from any and all of them as possible... mostly in the interests of self-preservation.

I will not retract a single word that I have written, as my transgression in text pales to the point of invisibility as compared to the transgressions in deed of the organized religions you and others like you subscribe to.

While the Freakoutica island is an excellent idea for fundamentalsts cough*Westboro "Baptist Church"*cough, how do you attest that the Catholic Church is an abomination of the ideals of Jesus? I will not deny that the Crusades were a horrible mistake, led by brutal, misguided individuals, but in all fairness, that was about 1000 years ago. No major government or organization is blameless, and heinous crimes would still occur under a different banner even if all organized religion was abolished. I speak in terms of today rather than years past, and defy you to find for me a blameless large organization of society. I do respect, however your differing opinion, and have no desire for you to retract it.

While the Freakoutica island is an excellent idea for fundamentalsts cough*Westboro "Baptist Church"*cough, how do you attest that the Catholic Church is an abomination of the ideals of Jesus? I will not deny that the Crusades were a horrible mistake, led by brutal, misguided individuals, but in all fairness, that was about 1000 years ago. No major government or organization is blameless, and heinous crimes would still occur under a different banner even if all organized religion was abolished. I speak in terms of today rather than years past, and defy you to find for me a blameless large organization of society. I do respect, however your differing opinion, and have no desire for you to retract it.
Are you blind?

What part of "my ancestors were put to the torch by the Inquisition" are you failing to understand?

And that wasn't a thousand years ago. I'll refer you to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

You'll note the last Inquisition ended in 1834, just a mere 168 years ago.

Are you blind?

What part of "my ancestors were put to the torch by the Inquisition" are you failing to understand?

And that wasn't a thousand years ago. I'll refer you to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

You'll note the last Inquisition ended in 1834, just a mere 168 years ago.

Ok. My relatives were put to death by the Nazis because they were Polish and Catholic.

We can play the "blame the group" game all day. But is hating the Nazis going to bring back Great Uncle Stanislaus, or Cousin Janusz? No.

Banning Nazism will not stop the proliferation of these thoughts in sick and twisted individuals.

Ok. My relatives were put to death by the Nazis because they were Polish and Catholic.

We can play the "blame the group" game all day. But is hating the Nazis going to bring back Great Uncle Stanislaus, or Cousin Janusz? No.

Banning Nazism will not stop the proliferation of these thoughts in sick and twisted individuals.
No, no bait-and-switch, dear fellow - Nazis don't factor into this equation. I'm not blaming any old group here, I'm blaming the Holy Mother Church.

For the INQUISITION.

The Catholic Church isn't just a "group". The Pope is the Successor of Peter, the Shepherd of the Church 'til the return of Christ.

Now how do you square away the (never-apologized-for) INQUISITION somehow not abominating the ideals of Jesus? In what exact way does inflicting torture, maiming and death help prepare the world for His return?

And you've yet to demonstrate how, or what part of my original post was supposedly "Orwellian", by the way. I am still waiting.

Cry me a fucking river. I really don't care about your relatives. Nice sympathy plea to divert the matter at hand. How would banning the Church solve this now?

Well, good thing it wasn't the women's world cup. Women playing soccer ... that would horrify some Islamic fundies.

The Islamic view on the Crusades:

We invade and overrun Christian territory: that's good because God said we could.

You invade and attempt to liberate formerly Christian territory: that's bad and we hates Christianses for ever!

In other words, what's ours is ours forever, and what's yours is yours until we overrun it, then it's ours forever. Dar al-Islam vs. Dar al-Harb.
Isn't that how it always goes? Sayeth the missionary, "We come to your land and bring you our ways and tell you what you and your ancestors have been doing to thousands of years is evil and wrong, because God told us to."

WWI didn't help but the problem was there way before that.

The Catholics( of which I am one) only got rid of a prayer for destroying the Jews in the last centuray. The ideals of Islam, Chrristanity, Buddisht can be wonderful, humans just go and muck it up by wars, torture, bombings. Holding past misdeeds against each other doesn't help matters.

The Catholics( of which I am one) only got rid of a prayer for destroying the Jews in the last centuray. The ideals of Islam, Chrristanity, Buddisht can be wonderful, humans just go and muck it up by wars, torture, bombings. Holding past misdeeds against each other doesn't help matters.

Exactly. It happened in the past, and current prejudices based on past events won't change anything.

Cry me a fucking river. I really don't care about your relatives. Nice sympathy plea to divert the matter at hand. How would banning the Church solve this now?

I never said word one about banning anything, pinhead. You're the one who brought that up when you tried shifting the discussion onto Nazis. If you can't even be bothered to remember what you said, I see no reason at all to continue this charade.

No-one's gonna be puttin' words into my mouth, troll.

*edit: and no-one's going to persuade me to blame some unnamed individual for the transgressions of official Church policy over 800+ years. No pass-cards from this quarter.

So you better care about my fucking ancestors - it's on your collective heads, this willfull abandonment of the tenets of Jesus Christ. It's your immortal souls in the balance, not mine.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060705/ap_on_re_af/somalia_world_cup_2

Of course, this crime wasn't motivated by Islam, now was it?

I feel that the killing is wrong, but on the other hand we must learn to respect other cultures. There is no "right" way to judge people, especially when we can't understand the root causes.

However, would anyone be surprised to see Jerry Falwell and his Chrtistian fundamentialists try to stone a woman simply for invoking her Constitutional right to an abortion?

Are you blind?

What part of "my ancestors were put to the torch by the Inquisition" are you failing to understand?

And that wasn't a thousand years ago. I'll refer you to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

You'll note the last Inquisition ended in 1834, just a mere 168 years ago.

I'm pretty sure that the Inquisition only applied to people who publicly declared that they were Christian while also putting forth false doctrine. You could always avoid the Inquisition by not claiming to be Christian.

This being said, it's so childish to bring up random things from the distant past. The real reason for all the hatred of Christianity is that for most teenagers it poses a problem for them when they want to feel guiltless for their immorality. But your war is not against Christians, it's against yourself and the law of God which is written indeliably on your soul.

I feel that the killing is wrong, but on the other hand we must learn to respect other cultures. There is no "right" way to judge people, especially when we can't understand the root causes.

However, would anyone be surprised to see Jerry Falwell and his Chrtistian fundamentialists try to stone a woman simply for invoking her Constitutional right to an abortion?

Of course not. But the question is, is Christianity itself a "root cause" of people like that or Fred Phelps? By extension is Islam a root cause of terrorists? My answer to both is no, because it smacks of blaming an "ism" for the actions of individuals. Such individuals who, no matter where they grew up or what cultures they were part of, would always find some "ism" to try to justify their wacked-out insanity.

Of course not. But the question is, is Christianity itself a "root cause" of people like that or Fred Phelps? By extension is Islam a root cause of terrorists? My answer to both is no, because it smacks of blaming an "ism" for the actions of individuals. Such individuals who, no matter where they grew up or what cultures they were part of, would always find some "ism" to try to justify their wacked-out insanity.

You passionately defend Islam even though you know nothing about it, just to please your public high school teachers. (Isn't it funny how government schools produce children that worship government?) If you read the Qur'an, the Ummah (Islamic faithful) are commanded to make violent war against the infidel, especially the portions written in Mohammed's Medinian period, which override any peaceful supplications made in the Meccan period.

The only commands in Christianity, which get a lot of immoral people angry at times, are to follow God's law. God's law (in Christianity, which many argue is the one true Faith) does not ask Christians to make indiscriminate violent war against non-believers.

One thing that our Lord Christ does say is that "those who hear the truth, hear my voice." Does making war against innocents sound like the voice of God?

Find me the passage in the Khoran (sp?) where it says watching the world cup is evil and I'll agree with you.

It's the same part of the Constitution that doesn't give you the right to privacy or enshrines the right to contract above all other laws.

Hard line totalitarian loonies don't need a reason for their bullshit. Just the power to crap it on people.

The only commands in Christianity, which get a lot of immoral people angry at times, are to follow God's law. God's law (in Christianity, which many argue is the one true Faith) does not ask Christians to make indiscriminate violent war against non-believers.

God does seem to be a bit psychotic in the Old Testament, he orders a lot of wars, gambels with the Devil over a man's faith, destroys the world. It isn't suprising Islam has some bits on destroying the infidels that contradicts more peaceful parts, the problem is idiots will always justify actions by using buts on their relgion that don't really suit nowdays

edit: and no-one's going to persuade me to blame some unnamed individual for the transgressions of official Church policy over 800+ years. No pass-cards from this quarter.

So you better care about my fucking ancestors - it's on your collective heads, this willfull abandonment of the tenets of Jesus Christ. It's your immortal souls in the balance, not mine.

Are you suggesting I should be blamed for what some nutballs did ages ago? Oh noes, one of my ancestors(a long time back, been dead for more then a centurary) was a theif, I should go to a police station and have myself punished for it. Oh wait, the law punishes those who commit the crimes, we don't go around punishing the families off the criminals.

I am not, nor is the current Catholic church, responsibile for what happen before we where born. I am sorry about your ancestors, the Inquistion is not the Catholic's best moment and was a monster created out of decent intentions but you can't go around blaming the current Holy Father and his people for it.

The Inquistion was set up to convert, a sort of missonary thing. Sadly sadists got in in dark time and turned into mass torture, it became so powerful that even the Popes couldn't bring it under control though some did try but to limited success.

Maybe that descendant of Ghengis Khan should be placed on war trials for what his ancestor did?

i think we should just nuke mogadishu.

It WILL solve all these problems.

Anyone should be shot for watching Italy play.

Water Cove.... you're talking about the future World Champion! [/hijack]

We must respect their culture.

Respect mine instead.
My culture tells me to kill off people who disagree with my culture.

Nice little conundrum, there.