NationStates Jolt Archive

Human Nature. Does it exist? Can it change? Is it really so dissimilar to animal nature? Does it exist only among the un-educated? (i.e. we have human nature, but we learn to rise above it?)

Please, discuss.

I can go both ways (wow. that sounded a little.....uh...nevermind)

I will think about which side I want to argue and be back later. :)

Human Nature. Does it exist? Can it change? Is it really so dissimilar to animal nature? Does it exist only among the un-educated? (i.e. we have human nature, but we learn to rise above it?)


Yes
Yes
No
No

Sorted

Human Nature. Does it exist? Can it change? Is it really so dissimilar to animal nature? Does it exist only among the un-educated? (i.e. we have human nature, but we learn to rise above it?)

Please, discuss.
Yes it exists in that across the board humans have certain drives, needs, and emotions in common and share non-verbal, culturally neutral body language signals and also share certain taboos, groupings and classifications, and preferences in common. We also seem to share some behaviors in reaction to certain conditions in common.

Can it change? No, but we can act against it if we're willing to put in the effort and endure the discomfort. There's no reason to change it though. It won't make you any happier.

I

Any thoughts on what it is comprised of then?

Any thoughts on what it is comprised of then?
Probably genetic. Based on how human brains are built.

Are you assuming that human nature, that is, the quality of being human, is something we need to rise above? Certainly, we have primal drives as do all animals, drives for food, for sex, for self-preservation (and yes, before someone tells me, this last often manifests itself in a drive to wipe out whatever we don't like or that is in our way, including a lot of other humans). Those are basic. The finer aspects of being human, art and music and nurturing others, our curiosity about the world, the universe, why struggle to rise above those? Thank you, but no, I'll stay a messy, conflicted human and not do any rising above.

We don't need to rise above it. I was just wondering what "it" is. I was curious if there were anything transcendental about our nature. Compare a primitive communal tribe with an industrial nation. Certainly the drives, motives, values - the very nature of people - has changed, no?

We don't need to rise above it. I was just wondering what "it" is. I was curious if there were anything transcendental about our nature. Compare a primitive communal tribe with an industrial nation. Certainly the drives, motives, values - the very nature of people - has changed, no?
Probably not that much. The outward trappings, absolutely, but the basic motives and values? I doubt it.

We don't need to rise above it. I was just wondering what "it" is. I was curious if there were anything transcendental about our nature. Compare a primitive communal tribe with an industrial nation. Certainly the drives, motives, values - the very nature of people - has changed, no?
Drives and motives haven't changed. Values, some yes some no. The human brain has the ability to moralize and to demoralize issues. For example, homosexuality has been demoralized in many modern cultures. It's just a choice now. Smoking, by contrast, has been moralized. It was once seen as a choice, now it's a disgusting habit that makes one a pariah. But the fact that we attatch morality to some issues and the fact that those morals are tied to primal emotions like disgust, anger, etc. is a part of human nature. Ostriches don't judge other ostriches if they choose to bang fenceposts instesad of other ostriches.

Yes it exists in that across the board humans have certain drives, needs, and emotions in common and share non-verbal, culturally neutral body language signals and also share certain taboos, groupings and classifications, and preferences in common. We also seem to share some behaviors in reaction to certain conditions in common.

Does that mean that people who don't exhibit those characteristics (say, Aspies) aren't really human?

I find it hard to believe in "human nature" as no given values, morals, goals etc are shared by all, and IMO any that ARE shared by most are possibly the result of social and economic context rather than "nature".

Does that mean that people who don't exhibit those characteristics (say, Aspies) aren't really human?
No more so than a person who lacks a hand isn't human.

I find it hard to believe in "human nature" as no given values, morals, goals etc are shared by all, and IMO any that ARE shared by most are possibly the result of social and economic context rather than "nature".
You haven't read about sociobiology, have you?

I reccomend this guy's book, The Blank Slate. Here's a video of him speaking about the book.

http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/23/

But sociobiologists deal with groups. The predominant traits within a group get noticed. Those minority opinions don't.

I still don't see that all people exhibit meaningfully similar characteristics in terms of values. The vast majority might, but all? I don't buy it.

But sociobiologists deal with groups. The predominant traits within a group get noticed. Those minority opinions don't.

I still don't see that all people exhibit meaningfully similar characteristics in terms of values. The vast majority might, but all? I don't buy it.
Well, if you observe Steven Hawking you'd think people were all geniuses who can't walk. It's only by looking at large samples that you get a better view of what humans are.

EDIT: Look at Kinsey's work with wasps. He'd collect numerous samples of the same species of wasps, noting the tiny variations from one sample to the other, including the size and shape of sexual organs like ovipositors. (Kinsey was a freak) Anyhow, theyr'e still the same species of wasp. They still share many more traits in common.

Human Nature. Does it exist? Can it change? Is it really so dissimilar to animal nature? Does it exist only among the un-educated? (i.e. we have human nature, but we learn to rise above it?)

Please, discuss.

Human nature is simply the trends that we notice within the compiled history of observed human behavior. It is not static, as our collection of data grows throughout the years, especially as of late. Animal nature is the same thing, and many of the trends overlap. The way I see human nature, there is no way to rise above it because everyone is contributing to it regardless of their actions.

yes i believe human nature is real
human nature is in my opinion the ability to eat,sleep,breath and defend ones self

Someone already mentioned it... but I guess Locke's blank-slate-state is what I'm curious about. But nature/nurture seems like a dead-end argument to start.

yes i believe human nature is real
human nature is in my opinion the ability to eat,sleep,breath and defend ones self
How about the sense of empathy(often limited to one's own cultural group), the revulsion shown universally in every culture at the thought of mother/son incest, the same facial expressions and meaning of those facial expression regardless of culture, and many more common human traits?

human nature is in my opinion the ability to eat,sleep,breath and defend ones self

That's the nature of all animals.

I'm posting a link to this MIT lecture video again. I think it's worth watching for those who want to know more about the blank slate and human nature.

http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/23

That's the nature of all animals.
I know

Human nature is dark, barbaric, demented, twisted, and sick.
My country now governs according to these (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=490419) ideals.

To comments on whether or not we should (or can) rise above or change human nature: To rise above emotions like hate, anger, jealousy, and fear would also mean to rise above emotions like empathy, love, charity, honesty and mercy. To rise above what makes us human might improve the lives of many, and even in the long run, but we would become nothing more that mindless automata that do whatever the governments says. However, things like greed in the government would also be extinguished, so we would have more reason to obey the government. However, the widespread differences in human nature, along with our widespread geographic location, and the most important fact that we have independant thoughts and opinions (which is also human nature) insures that we cannot change it. In effect, human nature protects itself from elimination by its very existance. We may be able effect small changes in it in small pockets, but it cannot be massively changed.

In response to the four questions: Yes, yes, no, no.

Human nature is a form of animal nature, as humans are animals. A specie's nature is simply the characteristics of it; every inherent quality of the human species is part of human nature. If the human species were to change, then so would its nature.

Actually, the sole reason we've progressed so far ahead of all other mammals is because we do not have the ability to lick our own genitalia.

<snip>To rise above emotions like hate, anger, jealousy, and fear would also mean to rise above emotions like empathy, love, charity, honesty and mercy. To rise above what makes us human might improve the lives of many, and even in the long run, but we would become nothing more that mindless automata that do whatever the governments says.<snip>Emotions are only one of many forms of desires. take them away, and there is plenty left. Intellectual desires exist in many more varieties. They are merely not as raw and... noisy as emotions are. The desire to solve a problem, the desire to... well, any basic desire to perform any act is an intellectual desire. Those remain. They are merely not accompanied and reinforced by the emotions, which only serve to motivate you in various ways, not to, in themselves, do anything.

And you can selectively change your emotional response if you want to. I am doing so; assuming you are able to observe and analyze your emotions and thoughts sufficiently, it is quite easy. I have got rid of two useless emotions, shame and guilt, and gained pretty good control over the rest of my emotions.

Actually, the sole reason we've progressed so far ahead of all other mammals is because we do not have the ability to lick our own genitalia.Speak for yourself.:p Not that I can reach especially much, nor usually make use of such practices...

damm you, stealing my thread, i posted a practically identical thread about a week or so ago.
o well, knock yourselves out.I dont hold monopoly over thread titles, Im just being petty.;)
I kinda agree with satre, existence preceeds essence,but lots of peoples essence is shaped by people they know, ect, ect.In this way there is no real human nature other than what we learn culturally.But i dont know, whatever.

Actually, the sole reason we've progressed so far ahead of all other mammals is because we do not have the ability to lick our own genitalia.

I thought it was because men don't have large breasts.

As to the topic of nature vs nurture; a book.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060192119/ref=wl_it_dp/102-3967123-6225723?%5Fencoding=UTF8&colid=34JJ8OO0I9Y1C&coliid=I3JP59P6J35FLF&v=glance&n=283155

I thought it was because men don't have large breasts.

That's a side-effect of not being able to lick our own balls. Proof of evolution ... finally!

Human Nature. Does it exist? Can it change? Is it really so dissimilar to animal nature? Does it exist only among the un-educated? (i.e. we have human nature, but we learn to rise above it?)
My take on this:

There are definite constellations of traits associated with humans which can collectively be titled "Human Nature," some very altruistic and others very violent. So yes, I believe that there is such a thing as Human Nature.

At its most basic, human nature can and does change, but slowly, over millennia. Most of what we call human nature is based in the reptilian midbrain, the seat of emotions. While there is a thin veneer of acculturation and logic ( most of which originates from the frontal lobes ) overlaying these emotions, the emotions are there just below the surface awaiting the right cues, stresses, etc., to call them into play.

Many of the emotions humans experience are common in most animal species, particularly mammals. Emotions like rage, lust, affection, fear, etc., all have their counterparts in the animal kingdom. In the higher primates, particularly Chimpanzees ( who are closest to us genetically ), even some of the more complex emotions such as jealousy and pride seem also to be present.

Rather than "education," acculturation and learned self-discipline seem to be more closely related to an ability to control strong emotions. This is not to say that education has no impact, but rather that formal education can simply add yet another layer of acculturation and self-control based on logic.

We don't need to rise above it. I was just wondering what "it" is. I was curious if there were anything transcendental about our nature. Compare a primitive communal tribe with an industrial nation. Certainly the drives, motives, values - the very nature of people - has changed, no?
No. Not at all, actually. Just redirected.

My take on this:

Damnit ... don't come into a joke with a serious answer. :p

Damnit ... don't come into a joke with a serious answer. :p
Well, excuuuuuuuuse me! I don't normally read threads from the last post to the first! :p

Human Nature exists - and it is pretty... nauseating.

Well, excuuuuuuuuse me! I don't normally read threads from the last post to the first! :p

Hehehe ... sorry. Love you, gramps! :D

Hehehe ... sorry. Love you, gramps! :D
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

You roll those back far enough they'll stick like that.

You roll those back far enough they'll stick like that.
Which would immediately let others know that I had spent far too much time on NS General. Sigh.

Which would immediately let others know that I had spent far too much time on NS General. Sigh.

Shh! Hide our post count!

Shh! Hide our post count!
We share a post count??? :eek:

We share a post count??? :eek:

It's public! They all see it! We're old timers around here...

We get a couple days of ban and keep on comin'!

Don't let them know!

Human Nature. Does it exist? Can it change? Is it really so dissimilar to animal nature? Does it exist only among the un-educated? (i.e. we have human nature, but we learn to rise above it?)

Please, discuss.

Ah the old nature vs nurture debate. Not subscribing to the theories of Lysenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko) I would have to say that there are elements of Human nature that cannot be entirely explained by upbringing or culture.

So to answer the questions:
1. Yes
2. The way that it is expressed may be modified by upbringing and culture or by effort of "free" will
3. In parts yes, in other parts no
4. No.