NationStates Jolt Archive

He said: “The Government has its role to play in this but, honestly, the Government itself is not going to defeat this. If we want to defeat the extremism, we have got to defeat its ideas and we have got to address the completely false sense of grievance against the West.”

He added: “I am not the person to go into the Muslim community and explain that this extreme view is not the true face of Islam. I profoundly disagree that the problem here is that the Government hasn’t acted.”

He suggested some delays were caused by disagreements among Muslims. “We are not having a debate of a fundamental enough nature within the community, which is where the moderate majority stand up against the ideas of those people. You cannot defeat this extremism through what a Government does. You can only defeat it within a community,” he said.
Again, Blair claims that Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, and other aspects of UK foreign policy have nothing to do with the continuing rise of Islamic fundementalism (incedentaly, in the same Select Committee he claimed that holding a public inquiry into the July 2005 London bombings would divert resources from police and security services, and that a public inquiry would merely tell us “what we already know”).

How can anyone swallow this? Whatever your political views on the “war on terrorism”, how is it possible not to see a causal link between it and rising support for violent opposition? This seems to me a dangerously misguided stance.

So Mohammad Sidique Khan blew himself up because his Imman forgot to tell him how great the UK really was? Methinks not.

Sources: here (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1160986.ece) and here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4459236.stm).

religion is stupid.

I think Tony is dead right.

If you are muslim, in the UK and don't LIKE the UK, leave and never ever come back here.

I honestly don't care anymore. muslims can blow themselves up wherever there want, I don't care.

I honestly don't care anymore. muslims can blow themselves up wherever there want, I don't care.


Even in your bed while you're in it? :p

Even in your bed while you're in it? :p

Go nuts.

Go nuts.
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,161 I honestly don't care anymore. muslims can blow themselves up wherever there want, I don't care.
Do you care, or don't you?

If you are muslim, in the UK and don’t LIKE the UK, leave and never ever come back here.
What an enlightened attitude..:rolleyes: Go on, ignore the problem.

Why shouldn’t the Muslim community, or anybody else for that matter, hold grievences against a harmful foreign policy? Grouping people into those who are totally supportive of the government on the one hand, and terrorists on the other is a flagrantly dangerous move.

What an enlightened attitude..:rolleyes: Go on, ignore the problem.

Why shouldn’t the Muslim community, or anybody else for that matter, hold grievences against a harmful foreign policy? Grouping people into those who are totally supportive of the government on the one hand, and terrorists on the other is a flagrantly dangerous move.

I don't do enlightenment.
Either they do things in OUR land OUR way, or they can get out - with zero delay.


Some Ayatollah or imam I've just invented said:


"The Umma has its role to play in this but, honestly, the Umma itself is not going to defeat this. If we want to defeat Western military action in Afghanistan or Iraq, we have got to defeat its ideas and we have got to address the completely false sense of grievance against Islam.”

He added: “I am not the person to go into the West and explain that this extreme view is not the true face of the West. I profoundly disagree that the problem here is that the Umma hasn’t acted.”

He suggested some delays were caused by disagreements among Westerners. “We are not having a debate of a fundamental enough nature within the community, which is where the moderate majority stand up against the ideas of those people. You cannot defeat this extremism through what the Umma does. You can only defeat it within a community,” he said.

Do you care, or don't you?

No.

I think Tony is dead right.

If you are muslim, in the UK and don't LIKE the UK, leave and never ever come back here.


I completely agree.

I think Tony is dead right.

If you are muslim, in the UK and don't LIKE the UK, leave and never ever come back here.

Or, you know, they can enact change through democratic venues. That sounds like a lot more reasonable thing to do than just move.

I don't do enlightenment.
Either they do things in MY land MY way, or they can get out - with zero delay.


~snip
Fixed.
You want it your way.

Or, you know, they can enact change through democratic venues. That sounds like a lot more reasonable thing to do than just move.

I consider acting through democratic venues doing things exactly our way.

I have no intention of sounding reasonable.
Sounding reasonable has the decided drawback that it leaves negotation-space open.
Opening negotation-space means that you allow for the possibility of NOT doing things our way.

I don't do enlightenment.
Either they do things in OUR land OUR way, or they can get out - with zero delay.

Our land? So since when did we own it? Ohh you mean this mongrol island nation of ours, you know that one has always been peopled by whoever landed here, or invaded here, or just turned up one day.

Shit man when this great nation of ours sinks below the waves are you thne going to stay here, or would you rather live your life else where?

Stupid, stupidity at every turn, people advocating the killing and the mistreatment of people based on what, where they live, what sort of invisible friend they have, what their eating habits are, shit we might as well make war on those that listen to differantmusic than us, ohhh for fucks sake we already do, don't we.

I don’t do enlightenment.
Sticking with the Dark Ages are we?

Either they do things in OUR land OUR way, or they can get out–with zero delay.
“Our” land? “Our” way? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. So what’s “Our” way, exactly? Skin colour? Religion? Diet? Or merely bigotry? Where do you draw the line? Second or third-generation immagrants? Can we the Austrailians stay?

Reminds me of that Not The Nine O’Clock News sketch: “Now that we’ve got the recipe for curry, do we really need them to stay?”

I think Tony is dead right.

If you are muslim, in the UK and don't LIKE the UK, leave and never ever come back here.

I have to agree with you on this one.

You cant move to a country and then complain that it's not like your home country... if it was so fecking wonderful, go back.

... oh and they should make an effort to learn the godfrikindamn language!!!!!

(i've just got off an annoying call with a pissed off colleague.. do i LOOK like an agony aunt?)

Sticking with the Dark Ages are we?


“Our” land? “Our” way? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. So what’s “Our” way, exactly? Skin colour? Religion? Diet? Or merely bigotry? Where do you draw the line? Second or third-generation immagrants? Can we the Austrailians stay?

Reminds me of that Not The Nine O’Clock News sketch: “Now that we’ve got the recipe for curry, do we really need them to stay?”

Ah, it is a wonderful question to answer: the US of OUR is defined by doing things OUR way. And by nothing else.
If it acts like a Briton, thinks like a Briton, and behaves like a Briton, it IS a Briton.

I would not call it waging war,
but I am very much in favour of treating the usage of the F-word and the S-word as criminal offenses.
Fuck that shit. Freedom of expression rocks.

Ah, it is a wonderful question to answer: the US of OUR is defined by doing things OUR way. And by nothing else.
If it acts like a Briton, thinks like a Briton, and behaves like a Briton, it IS a Briton.
Which begs the question: what the hell is a Briton? Please elucidate, wth reference to examples. :)

Which begs the question: what the hell is a Briton? Please elucidate, wth reference to examples. :)


Ask Yootopia, please.
He asked me questions in excellent detail, which I enjoyed answering in detail.

The short version is: the Oxford Version - not the Terrace Version.

Freedom of Expression is no excuse whatsoever to deviate from the kind of language one uses at the Lambeth Conference.

Tony Blair might be an utter tit, but you have to admit that he has a point. For plenty of Muslims their initial loyalty is to the worldwide Muslim population as a whole rather than their nationality. Which isn't in itself a bad thing, but it does tend to make them see everything as a conspiracy to opress Muslims. And it's a self reinforcing fallacy, because as these feelings of oppression are widespread then the more extremist elements try to redress the balance by blowing up trains. Which inevitably leads to stop and searches, raids and attempted infiltration of mosques to combat the terrorism and increased suspicion in the non-muslim populace, which only makes them more convinced that there was a huge conspiracy all along and provides more ammunition to the extremists.

The short version is: the Oxford Version–not the Terrace Version.
So would you class a practising Muslim who was born and raised in Britain, graduated from Oxford with a 1:1, and who is vehmehently against the war as a Briton?

Freedom of Expression is no excuse whatsoever to deviate from the kind of language one uses at the Lambeth Conference.
HA! Freedom of expression should be limited to the imaginations of the Anglican church? I love it.

It’s my freedom to express the fact that I think your proposal is shit, as well as dangerous.

blair seems to be forgetting one (possibly bery valid )point.
Its not a false grievence.I am not a muslim,nor an extremist in any shape or form but I can totally see why so many in the world despise the west.Bush is a warmongering idiot obsessed with oil and his own power,and Blair is too obsessed with what his legacy will be to give a fuck about the lives of ordinary people.
Its not just that, of course there are some great things in the west, like freedom of speech and movement,democracy(although that is being slowly ground away.nb terrorism act 2005, the 'patriot' act)but what im sure pisses a lot of people off is our double standards.We can have nuclear power but you cant.We can wage war and devastation in the name of our 'ideals' and you cant.Qe want democracy in the middle east but when palestinians elect a government(though some of the freest and fairest elections in that region)that we dont like we cut off their aid money.
Its not just that, its our whole culture,of greed and blame,Im sure that the starving children in africa are jealous of our obesity problem.We all want but we dont want to give back.
I also thing Blair has made a wrong move by practically blaming the extremist problem(and no doubt there is a problem)soley on the muslims community.All this will do is futher isolate the muslim community i britain, if they didnt think we were against them before, they certainly do now.He didnt say to all catholics, you are responsible for the actions of the Ira, you should stand up to them(and then get blown up) yet he can get away with saying this to the muslim comminity.Obviously the muslim community can do something, but the reason why this whole issue was raised,was because blair set up muslim taskforces to give advice on how the muslim community AND THE GOVERNMENT can deal with the problem BUT THE GOVERNMENT DID NOT LISTEN!How are they supposed to make any changes when the govenment tell them its their problem ,hey have to deal with it and dont listen to what may help(mind you this seems to be a recurring theme in blairs government, 'we want to listen to what the people want' and then when the people tell them they ignore it and do what they wanted to do in the first place, the labour government listening to you is just an illusion)Blair is supposedly a man of christian values-surley,then,he should understand the significance of taking the wooden plank out of our own eyes before removing the splinter out of our neighbours.It is insanity to say that british and american foreing policy in no way contributes to the rise of extremism.Of course thered are some that will give any excuse to blow people up,but with others, I completly understand their grievance.

Which begs the question: what the hell is a Briton? Please elucidate, wth reference to examples. :)

someone who is born or raised in said country and sees themselves as being part of that nation. Also being loyal to that nations laws and ethics. in my opinion of course

So would you class a practising Muslim who was born and raised in Britain, graduated from Oxford with a 1:1, and who is vehmehently against the war as a Briton?

yes of course.

I think Tony is dead right.

If you are muslim, in the UK and don't LIKE the UK, leave and never ever come back here.

And here I thought it was only us Americans who thumped the "love it or leave it" anti-democratic nonsense.

someone who is born or raised in said country and sees themselves as being part of that nation. Also being loyal to that nations laws and ethics. in my opinion of course
so if we oppose the current govenment, or disagree with some of out countrys ethics then we are not mmember of that country, and should promptly move.
you are a briton if you have a british passport.:upyours:

And here I thought it was only us Americans who thumped the "love it or leave it" anti-democratic nonsense.
unfortunanty not, I think bm wants us all to conform to a british steriotype, and if we dont, we should bugger off.
notice he only wants the muslims to bugger off(strange all this bigotry stuff isnt it)what about british christians who dont like the laws on abortion, should they move too?

so if we oppose the current govenment, or disagree with some of out countrys ethics then we are not mmember of that country, and should promptly move.
you are a briton if you have a british passport.:upyours:

well up yours too.

i never said you could not oppose the current government, did i?

Also if you disgree with the ethics of your country, which generally means the ethics of a majority of the population then maybe moving to another country would be best for that person. Maybe a country that fits in more with their own ethical code.

please note, i never recommended that anyone should be removed from the country. Maybe you should read what a person writes before replying?

well up yours too.

i never said you could not oppose the current government, did i?

Also if you disgree with the ethics of your country, which generally means the ethics of a majority of the population then maybe moving to another country would be best for that person. Maybe a country that fits in more with their own ethical code.

please note, i never recommended that anyone should be removed from the country. Maybe you should read what a person writes before replying?
I wansnt :upyours: you sorry, it was directed at bm,you just got caught in the crossfire:mp5: (sorry)

I wansnt :upyours: you sorry, it was directed at bm,you just got caught in the crossfire:mp5: (sorry)

well as long as we're not :upyours: at each other. :upyours: never solves arguments. But instead of:upyours:, why not argue the point with the person you :upyours: ing

(sorry could not resist all the :upyours: )

well as long as we're not :upyours: at each other. :upyours: never solves arguments. But instead of:upyours:, why not argue the point with the person you :upyours: ing

(sorry could not resist all the :upyours: )

I have , note the huge post previous page.I was being lazy, and of course, you are right, it doesnt solve anything, but it makes me feel better.;)

He does have a point

Afghanistan was not an attack on Muslims, it was a response to September 11th

Iraq, whatever the problems now and the motives for the invasion, will ulitmately produce something good if it works. Another stable democracy in the Middle east

There is a mistaken belief that UN resolutions condemning Israel by the UN being vetoed by the US signfies western unfair support of Israel. That isnt the case. The US has vetoed all resoulutions that condem one side unfairly without contextual criticism of the other. What the west in general wants to happen there is a reasonable end situation. Two states, one Israel, one Palestine. The only thing is at present, many of the Palestianin leadership are more interested in the destruction of Israel than they are in having their own state.

He does have a point

Afghanistan was not an attack on Muslims, it was a response to September 11th

Iraq, whatever the problems now and the motives for the invasion, will ulitmately produce something good if it works. Another stable democracy in the Middle east

There is a mistaken belief that UN resolutions condemning Israel by the UN being vetoed by the US signfies western unfair support of Israel. That isnt the case. The US has vetoed all resoulutions that condem one side unfairly without contextual criticism of the other. What the west in general wants to happen there is a reasonable end situation. Two states, one Israel, one Palestine. The only thing is at present, many of the Palestianin leadership are more interested in the destruction of Israel than they are in having their own state.
that was not my point, my point was bush wants democracy spread thoughout the middle east, and when palestinians elect hammas(not a nice group to be sure)he cuts off their aid.Of course there should be a 2 state solution,and equal criticisms for both sides.
Afghanistan was not an attack on muslims, but many muslims percieved that it was.The war 'on terror' seems to only be directed at islamic terrorists, why isnt bush in indonesia fighting the tamils, or n.ireland ?Obviously it is because there seems to be more threat from islamic terrorists, but then why say war on terror when he was blatanty going to focus on one group?
the 'they started it arguement' is fair but there are reasons why many muslims feel attacked and many reasons for disliking, or even hating the'west'

While I've always been against going into Iraq, muslims here seem to have this arrogant attitude that a minority community of about a million should have a veto over the entire country's foreign policy, regardless of what the other 59 million want. It also confirms my view that this extremism isn't solely caused by our foreign policy. After all you don't see non-muslims, even those against the war, setting bombs off in response. While western foreign policy does play a major part in their ideology, I'd say a more important part is something inherent in islam itself.

Even 'mainstream' islam espouses the ideas of the ummah, which puts loyalty towards muslims in foreign lands before loyalty to their own countrymen. This shows that no matter how 'British' (i.e. holding a bit of paper which says they can live here, which is about as British as they are) a lot of muslims in this country say they are, they will always stab the rest of us in the back when it suits them. They should never be trusted and never been seen truly as British citizens.

SNIP
It’s my freedom to express the fact that I think your proposal is shit, as well as dangerous.


It's my freedom to nominate you for an ASBO.

I think Tony is dead right.

If you are muslim, in the UK and don't LIKE the UK, leave and never ever come back here.

Yep.

that was not my point, my point was bush wants democracy spread thoughout the middle east, and when palestinians elect hammas(not a nice group to be sure)he cuts off their aid.


Thats because they are acting in an undemocratic fashion. IE wanting to carry out a genocide. Think about this, if a government came to power in Germany wanting to wipe out all the Jews all over the world, should every other country just treat it as normal? Of course not.

Tony Blair might be an utter tit, but you have to admit that he has a point. For plenty of Muslims their initial loyalty is to the worldwide Muslim population as a whole rather than their nationality. Which isn't in itself a bad thing, but it does tend to make them see everything as a conspiracy to opress Muslims. And it's a self reinforcing fallacy, because as these feelings of oppression are widespread then the more extremist elements try to redress the balance by blowing up trains. Which inevitably leads to stop and searches, raids and attempted infiltration of mosques to combat the terrorism and increased suspicion in the non-muslim populace, which only makes them more convinced that there was a huge conspiracy all along and provides more ammunition to the extremists.

Nope. I think they've a justified greviance in a number of cases and I'm not a muslim. He should remove his tongue from the yanks arse, the little tory-in-sheeps-clothing...


That isnt the case. The US has vetoed all resoulutions that condem one side unfairly without contextual criticism of the other. .

However that assumes parity of guilt in all cases. Yet the US has blocked all motions condemningh the settlements or callinf for their dismantlement. Theres no PLO/Palestinian settlements being built in some occupied part of Israel. Likewise urging the adoption and application of the geneva convention towards the population within the occupied territories - as the first world power in defacto control, it would be Israels duty to do this. Its a onesided unilateral back up of an ally.