NationStates Jolt Archive

This day, the fourth of July, American Indepence day, or what will you call it, always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I was talking to my mother earlier about how N. Korea was testing Missles, and i said "well why can we have them, but not them." She said "they are evil, and we are good"

:headbang:

Why are they evil and we are good? What makes america this "shinning light in the world of darkness". We are just another nation acting on its intrests. Sure, we "stopped WW2", and what not, and we have helped with human rights in other nations, but only where it suited us well.

Im tired of these blind patriots saying that we are the protector of the world, when we are no more a protector, than the bully on the playground. Meaning if you pay us enough, we might protect you against another bully.

Don't get me wrong, i love the idea of America, the American dream if you will. I just hate this nationalistic nation, acting only on materialism, and not out of compassion, or pure logic.

[/incoherent rant]

You may or may not be good, but before you say anything just look at North Korea.

America isn't perfect. But you know what?

I'd rather they were the 'world's Policeman' than anyone else.

This day, the fourth of July, American Indepence day, or what will you call it, always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I was talking to my mother earlier about how N. Korea was testing Missles, and i said "well why can we have them, but not them." She said "they are evil, and we are good"

:headbang:

Why are they evil and we are good? What makes america this "shinning light in the world of darkness". We are just another nation acting on its intrests. Sure, we "stopped WW2", and what not, and we have helped with human rights in other nations, but only where it suited us well.

Im tired of these blind patriots saying that we are the protector of the world, when we are no more a protector, than the bully on the playground. Meaning if you pay us enough, we might protect you against another bully.

Don't get me wrong, i love the idea of America, the American dream if you will. I just hate this nationalistic nation, acting only on materialism, and not out of compassion, or pure logic.

[/incoherent rant]


Soo.... you don't really know anything about North Korea, do you...

We don't always act out of desire. We're in Iraq because it's right, not because we need fuel or anything. Most of our fuel comes from inside the US anyway.

This day, the fourth of July, American Indepence day, or what will you call it, always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I was talking to my mother earlier about how N. Korea was testing Missles, and i said "well why can we have them, but not them." She said "they are evil, and we are good"

:headbang:

Why are they evil and we are good? What makes america this "shinning light in the world of darkness". We are just another nation acting on its intrests. Sure, we "stopped WW2", and what not, and we have helped with human rights in other nations, but only where it suited us well.

Im tired of these blind patriots saying that we are the protector of the world, when we are no more a protector, than the bully on the playground. Meaning if you pay us enough, we might protect you against another bully.

Don't get me wrong, i love the idea of America, the American dream if you will. I just hate this nationalistic nation, acting only on materialism, and not out of compassion, or pure logic.

[/incoherent rant]
why do we have them and others don't? well most others anyway. because we got them first. before the watchdog was set in place. as did several other Nations.

are we a playground bully? yep. but we try to be fair about it. can't 'pay' us now? no worries, you can help in other ways, or pay later.

we don't act out of pure materialism, but also out of compassion and logic, you don't want pure logic or pure compassion. that's no way to run a nation.

and can you name one country that doesn't act for their own needs? who would give 100% of the time without expecting anything in return?

You may or may not be good, but before you say anything just look at North Korea.


You know, they think that they are good and we are evil. Its all about point of view. Is there a universal truth of good and evil? if so, then let me know please!

We don't always act out of desire. We're in Iraq because it's right, not because we need fuel or anything. Most of our fuel comes from inside the US anyway.


:rolleyes:

Not even going to comment out of that one. -laughs-

:rolleyes:

Not even going to comment out of that one. -laughs-
Um...you just did. :p

You know, they think that they are good and we are evil. Its all about point of view. Is there a universal truth of good and evil? if so, then let me know please!

Thats correct but, you really really don't want to Kim Jon Il running your life.

We don't always act out of desire. We're in Iraq because it's right, not because we need fuel or anything. Most of our fuel comes from inside the US anyway.

Reality. It's not just for tourism.

america is a damn sight better than many, and more responsible than most with nuclear weapons (very much so)... this is why america can have them and a country like N korea can't. america may be nationalist, militaristic, in favour of realist and unilateral action in the face of the rest of the world (yes, a "bully") but there's a responsibility that comes with having nuclear power, and america has demonstated that control (cold war for eg i guess)

whatever *shrugs*

Reality. It's not just for tourism.
What's reality? Dis or not?

America isn't perfect. But you know what?

I'd rather they were the 'world's Policeman' than anyone else.


NO ONE should be the worl police. Why give one nation an advantage over the other. Those with power will seek to exploit and abuse that power, and will do whatever it takes to keep that power. You give America, or anyother nation power over others, and they will try and rule the world.

You know, they think that they are good and we are evil. Its all about point of view. Is there a universal truth of good and evil? if so, then let me know please!


Hmmm, have we been threatening to lob our missles at them? Can't quite remember who it is who's threatening nuclear war....

NO ONE should be the worl police. Why give one nation an advantage over the other. Those with power will seek to exploit and abuse that power, and will do whatever it takes to keep that power. You give America, or anyother nation power over others, and they will try and rule the world.

They are already trying...

NK is one seriously batshit insane country. Seriously. They are evil*.

*Evil here is defined as causing excessive undue suffering to other innocent human beings.

But yeah, patriotism is bad.

NO ONE should be the worl police. Why give one nation an advantage over the other. Those with power will seek to exploit and abuse that power, and will do whatever it takes to keep that power. You give America, or anyother nation power over others, and they will try and rule the world.
No one 'gave' America power, anymore than anyone 'gave' power to any world power in history. But given the potential for abuse when any nation gains that power, if we've got to have someone I think I'll stick with America, thanks very much.

We don't always act out of desire. We're in Iraq because it's right, not because we need fuel or anything. Most of our fuel comes from inside the US anyway.

So you started a military occupation of another country, knocked down the borders allowing it to flood with foreign terrorists bombed into submission, killing thousands upon thousands of civilians, rid the country of law and order allowing a civil war to start out because its "right"?

NK is one seriously batshit insane country. Seriously. They are evil*.

*Evil here is defined as causing excessive undue suffering to other innocent human beings.

But yeah, patriotism is bad.
Ditto the NK comment, but nationalism's bad, not patriotism. A country can't truly function without it. I mean, otherwise the military would be pathetic.

So you started a military occupation of another country, knocked down the borders allowing it to flood with foreign terrorists bombed into submission, killing thousands upon thousands of civilians, rid the country of law and order allowing a civil war to start out because its "right"?
In theory it's right. Nothing's perfect! Where's Assisiz when you need him?

So you started a military occupation of another country, knocked down the borders allowing it to flood with foreign terrorists bombed into submission, killing thousands upon thousands of civilians, rid the country of law and order allowing a civil war to start out because its "right"?

All is fair and love and war. As long as it's not your own country :rolleyes: .

Thats correct but, you really really don't want to Kim Jon Il running your life.


well if he sends a missle here, or sends war machinery or whatever, then we can fight him. No since in use though with threatening him over test firing missles. maybe he wants to have it to show that he can protect himself?

:rolleyes:

Not even going to comment out of that one. -laughs-

This war for oil stuff really sucks because I paid 2.73 a gallon for diesel the other day. I have a 45 gallon tank by the way, so it's costly.

well if he sends a missle here, or sends war machinery or whatever, then we can fight him. No since in use though with threatening him over test firing missles. maybe he wants to have it to show that he can protect himself?

Which he really NEEDS to do... after all, the last nation we thought MIGHT have some of the 'bigboy weapons'... but who COULDN'T defend themselves... we invaded, occupied, incited a civil war... etc.

Hmmm, have we been threatening to lob our missles at them? Can't quite remember who it is who's threatening nuclear war....

In fact, bush and the PM of Japan said that there would be "dire consequences for test launching a missle"

Thats pretty threatening to me.

Besides could you imagine if someone went around getting in fights with drunks, because the drunks threatened to kick their ass?

A country can't truly function without it. I mean, otherwise the military would be pathetic.

Why?

Ditto the NK comment, but nationalism's bad, not patriotism. A country can't truly function without it. I mean, otherwise the military would be pathetic.
Patriotism is the perfect breeding ground for prejudice. I have been verbally abused and threatened with violence for not actively supporting England in the World Cup. Regarding America and North Korea, the aptly named "Team America: World Police" springs to mind. :D

Ditto the NK comment, but nationalism's bad, not patriotism. A country can't truly function without it. I mean, otherwise the military would be pathetic.


How is a military's strength determined by patriotism?

We don't always act out of desire. We're in Iraq because it's right, not because we need fuel or anything. Most of our fuel comes from inside the US anyway.

Wow, some people really do beleive what the President says!

Soo.... you don't really know anything about North Korea, do you...


Nope he doesn't. If North Korea gets a nuke Japan is screwed.

Patriotism is the perfect breeding ground for prejudice. I have been verbally abused and threatened with violence for not actively supporting England in the World Cup. Regarding America and North Korea, the aptly named "Team America: World Police" springs to mind. :D
those abusing you are not examples of Patriotism but Nationalism. the extreme form of Patriotism.

Wow, some people really do beleive what the President says!

Took you long enough.

I react slowly.

those abusing you are not examples of Patriotism but Nationalism. the extreme form of Patriotism.
So where do you draw the line :confused: I don't understand the distinction?

Nope he doesn't. If North Korea gets a nuke Japan is screwed.


I thought NK had a nuke, and was just getting long range missles to scare America? Besides, NK knows if it attacks another nation, especially Japan, then the world would shove its foot so far up its(NK) ass, it'll be eating boot leather for years.

So where do you draw the line :confused: I don't understand the distinction?


I don't see a difference, really. Patriotism is just a name that Americans use to justify their nationalistic views.

Why?
Because people who are passionate for something fight better than those oppressed or mercenaries. It's not fact but it's generally true.

Took you long enough.
My parents do...I ignore Bush. Go liberals!

So where do you draw the line :confused: I don't understand the distinction?where do I draw the line?

on a personal note, Patriotism is when you follow your beliefs when it concerns your country and nation. Nationlism is when you try to force others to follow your beliefs where it concerns your country.

I don't believe in flag burning, but will I stop my neighbor from burning their flag in protest? no. for they are expressing their opinions and beliefs about their country in their way. now if they came to me and tried to force me to burn my flag for their protest... that's different. Just like if I went to them and tried to force them to fly theirs.

in your example, I would accept that you won't support England (if I was from Britian) and I would not force you to cheer for England's team in the WC.

Because people who are passionate for something fight better than those oppressed or mercenaries. It's not fact but it's generally true.
Or support an unjust war because their country says it is just...

This day, the fourth of July, American Indepence day, or what will you call it, always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I was talking to my mother earlier about how N. Korea was testing Missles, and i said "well why can we have them, but not them." She said "they are evil, and we are good"

:headbang:

Why are they evil and we are good? What makes america this "shinning light in the world of darkness". We are just another nation acting on its intrests. Sure, we "stopped WW2", and what not, and we have helped with human rights in other nations, but only where it suited us well.

Im tired of these blind patriots saying that we are the protector of the world, when we are no more a protector, than the bully on the playground. Meaning if you pay us enough, we might protect you against another bully.

Don't get me wrong, i love the idea of America, the American dream if you will. I just hate this nationalistic nation, acting only on materialism, and not out of compassion, or pure logic.

[/incoherent rant]
Because ever since you were a child watching cartoons people have been telling you that you are American and America is the best.

I thought NK had a nuke, and was just getting long range missles to scare America? Besides, NK knows if it attacks another nation, especially Japan, then the world would shove its foot so far up its(NK) ass, it'll be eating boot leather for years.



Since they are and have been testing them I doubt they care.

Or support an unjust war because their country says it is just...
If the gov't is corrupt what can you trust? And since America sets the standards, where can you go? You can't escape opinions on whether or not the war is just.

where do I draw the line?

on a personal note, Patriotism is when you follow your beliefs when it concerns your country and nation. Nationlism is when you try to force others to follow your beliefs where it concerns your country.

I don't believe in flag burning, but will I stop my neighbor from burning their flag in protest? no. for they are expressing their opinions and beliefs about their country in their way. now if they came to me and tried to force me to burn my flag for their protest... that's different. Just like if I went to them and tried to force them to fly theirs.

in your example, I would accept that you won't support England (if I was from Britian) and I would not force you to cheer for England's team in the WC.
That makes sense I guess. I just remembered someone explaining a while back that patriotism was about national pride, and nationalism was about national superiority. I suppose if someone was convinced their belief is superior, then they would try to "persuade" others to their point of view.

If the gov't is corrupt what can you trust? And since America sets the standards, where can you go? You can't escape opinions on whether or not the war is just.
Doesn't the UN set the standards?

If the gov't is corrupt what can you trust? And since America sets the standards, where can you go? You can't escape opinions on whether or not the war is just.
Why should America set the standards? and which other countries hold that opinion? Tony Blair may, but the average Briton doesn't I don't think.

Why should America set the standards? and which other countries hold that opinion? Tony Blair may, but the average Briton doesn't I don't think.


If america does set the standards, that would explain why 95% of planet hates it. Each country should set its own standards.

Why should America set the standards? and which other countries hold that opinion? Tony Blair may, but the average Briton doesn't I don't think.
America is a larger superpower than Britain...why am I still here? I can feel my forehead pain...stress, and I was happy this morning!

If america does set the standards, that would explain why 95% of planet hates it. Each country should set its own standards.
Thank you, and guten tag.

Thank you, and guten tag.



You are very welcome.:D

America is a larger superpower than Britain...why am I still here? I can feel my forehead pain...stress, and I was happy this morning!
Super power? So the country who has the most money or weapons is the one who is always morally in the right?

Super power? So the country who has the most money or weapons is the one who is always morally in the right?
I already said I'm leaving, pay attention!

I'm sorry I keep asking dumb questions, but isn't the problem with North Korea the fact that they are setting their own standards?

I already said I'm leaving, pay attention!
Hehe sorry about the headache, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I just like to understand how people have arrived at their views.

I already said I'm leaving, pay attention!
:P You aren't the only one who can answer my question. Or if you can't then its open to all others.

If america does set the standards, that would explain why 95% of planet hates it. Each country should set its own standards.
95%? really? can you support this with evidence please?

95%? really? can you support this with evidence please?


Go check gallup, the majority of the world hates america. It may or may not add up to 95%, I just hope it does.

Go check gallup, the majority of the world hates america. It may or may not add up to 95%, I just hope it does.
if you could provide a link.

Looked up the Gallup site, and can't find anything to prove that 95% of the people on earth hate America.

if you could provide a link.

Looked up the Gallup site, and can't find anything to prove that 95% of the people on earth hate America.


Go check gallup, the majority of the world hates america. It may or may not add up to 95%, I just hope it does.


I don't claim it does, it may or may not. Who knows.

I don't claim it does, it may or may not. Who knows.
but if you have the site with the numbers, then we can go and add them up.

so if you can link to the Gallup poll about everyone's view of America...

oh and you did claim it in post 48

If america does set the standards, that would explain why 95% of planet hates it. Each country should set its own standards.

Have 95% of the world even heard of the USA? I shouldn't think North Korean citizens have ;)

Have 95% of the world even heard of the USA? I shouldn't think North Korean citizens have ;)
one of the reasons why I want to see the poll and where the people who took it reside.

after all, if they only took 100 people total and 95% of them say they hate america's standards, then that's different than saying 95% of the world hates America's standards.

but if you have the site with the numbers, then we can go and add them up.

so if you can link to the Gallup poll about everyone's view of America...

oh and you did claim it in post 48


I overexaggerated, sue me. ;)

Have 95% of the world even heard of the USA? I shouldn't think North Korean citizens have ;)



I wish I could show you that discovery times channel show on North Korea I saw, NK used to tell its people america was selling poisend apples to children.:D

I overexaggerated, sue me. ;)
no problem, just that you seemed so sure about that fact. ;)


so it could just be the opposite, they may like America's standard, maybe not the country/leadership itself, but the standards they may actually like. :D

I wish I could show you that discovery times channel show on North Korea I saw, NK used to tell its people america was selling poisend apples to children.:D
was it NK that also banned the Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers there because they thought it said Mighty MORPHINE Power Rangers?

Have 95% of the world even heard of the USA? I shouldn't think North Korean citizens have ;)


Now, the OP poster didn't know a whole lot about the DPRK, but it doesnt look like this guy could even find it on a map!

Most of the posters and billboards in the DPRK - and everything taught in school - is propaganda against the united states.

The DPRK is obsessed with hatred of the US, it is the national pastime.

If a North Korean were to be unaware of the US, or unable to recite the party line about its role as the world's great evil, he would be put in the gulags or killed.

You know, they think that they are good and we are evil. Its all about point of view. Is there a universal truth of good and evil? if so, then let me know please!
Maybe there is, but in this case, comparing the merits of both nations is probably a good idea. Does the PRK use it's resources to the benefit of it's citizens as well as the United States does? How does the government treat it's citizenry compared to the United States government? There are plenty more comparisons that you can make and I suspect each one will reinforce the idea that the United States is a 'better' place.

...they may like America's standard, maybe not the country/leadership itself, but the standards they may actually like. :D
I'm not sure, I would have thought most people would like the States, or at least part of it, as a country and be more inclined to questions its standards and leadership. I really don't know enough "foreigners" to make an accurate judgement :)

I'm not sure, I would have thought most people would like the States, or at least part of it, as a country and be more inclined to questions its standards and leadership. I really don't know enough "foreigners" to make an accurate judgement :)
The empirical evidence is in the immigration rates, isn't it? We have a waiting list to get into the United States legally, while I don't imagine there's anyone trying to emigrate to the PRK.

:headbang:

Why are they evil and we are good? What makes america this "shinning light in the world of darkness". We are just another nation acting on its intrests. Sure, we "stopped WW2", and what not, and we have helped with human rights in other nations, but only where it suited us well.

[/incoherent rant]

At least in North Korea everyone has guaranteed healthcare. If you use healthcare as the only issue, which nation is more moral, North Korea or the United States?

Now, the OP poster didn't know a whole lot about the DPRK, but it doesnt look like this guy could even find it on a map!...
It was a joke about North Korean propaganda, I was actually rather good at geography in school :D

At least in North Korea everyone has guaranteed healthcare. If you use healthcare as the only issue, which nation is more moral, North Korea or the United States?
so you baise your moral entierly on the provision of Healthcare?

At least in North Korea everyone has guaranteed healthcare. If you use healthcare as the only issue, which nation is more moral, North Korea or the United States?
This kind of statement irritates me every time I see it. The United States has guaranteed health care, too. It's called the hospital emergency room. They don't turn anyone away and if you can't pay, they suck it up. And charge the rest of us paying customers a little more.

Where would you rather be treated? North Korea or Grady Memorial?

The empirical evidence is in the immigration rates, isn't it? We have a waiting list to get into the United States legally, while I don't imagine there's anyone trying to emigrate to the PRK.
Is immigration even permitted under normal circumstances into the PR Korea?

Is immigration even permitted under normal circumstances into the PR Korea?
Beats the hell out of me. That's probably a good reason not to go. I think they take American defectors with open arms, but I don't qualify.

...I think they take American defectors with open arms...
Ah but of course. I'm curious to find out what their schools teach about England. "England are a puppet nation of the evil USA, all they do is drink tea and fight." Hey wait... thats not propaganda!

Ah but of course. I'm curious to find out what their schools teach about England. "England are a puppet nation of the evil USA, all they do is drink tea and fight." Hey wait... thats not propaganda!
I'm sure there is something evil in your imperialist heritage.

If america does set the standards, that would explain why 95% of planet hates it. Each country should set its own standards.

At least where I live that 95% is pretty close to reality. And I can assure you we don´t have any "anti-american propaganda", except for reality.
When I say "america" I mean the U.S. there is a HUGE difference. And also there is a difference between "america" and "americans", hateing what a country represents does not mean hateing its people.

Apparently our thread starter needs a jump start on how well the North Koreans treat their civilians, and how NK is a bastion of cinnamon, puppies, and happiness.

:rolleyes:

You know, they think that they are good and we are evil. Its all about point of view. Is there a universal truth of good and evil? if so, then let me know please!

Here's a hint: Free society = GOOD. Totalitarian police state = EVIL.

Any questions?

Here's a hint: Free society = GOOD. Totalitarian police state = EVIL.

Any questions?
That's a pretty good yardstick. Unless, of course, you're from one of those states that practice metricism as a way of life.

was it NK that also banned the Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers there because they thought it said Mighty MORPHINE Power Rangers?


That may have been malaysia. Not sure.

You know, they think that they are good and we are evil. Its all about point of view. Is there a universal truth of good and evil? if so, then let me know please!
I too am a strong proponent of moral relativism, yet I wonder how you can be, what with your condemnation of materialism.

NK is, by everyone's accounts, a horrifying place to live. I believe Christopher Hitchens' assertion that the closest a nation has actually come to being like Airstrip One in 1984 is North Korea.

That having been said, it shouldn't give us some sense of accomplishment for "merely" being in bed with bastards (like Saddam Hussein in the 80's, our creation and puppet)...

..."merely" backing sides arbitrarily in engagements worldwide on the basis of whether one side pledged to be anti-communist (I give you the Mujahadeen, who turned on us, and Manuel Noriega , who became a focus for later parts of the War on Drugs)...

..."merely" stepping all over the sovereignty of nations like El Salvador and Nicaragua since the 1920's, because we didn't feel that the usual option, i.e., decency and a little more diplomacy, would be easy enough...

...and "merely" demonizing the flood victims as "looters" when they were starving and desperate, but "survivors" if they were photogenic and composed (and, um, check the color line on those two)...

...and on, and on, and on...

Nevertheless the fact remains. North Korea is probably BAR-NONE the worst authoritarian stranglehold in the world today.

With all our ugliness and faults and failures, we are heavenly by comparison, and that should not uplift us, but underscore how bad NK is.

We don't always act out of desire. We're in Iraq because it's right, not because we need fuel or anything. Most of our fuel comes from inside the US anyway.
I really hope that last sentence was a joke...Hopefully it was and I missed the post declaring so. It's a well-known fact that U.S. imports more fuel than it gets at home.