NationStates Jolt Archive

This isn't which religion has the most effect on science the most, but the one that disagrees the most. I'd say Wicca, because Wicca simply is based on Magic, which is extremly unscientific.

POLL COMING!

Scientology comes pretty close. The philosophy of ID however beats it, if one acknowledges that to be a religion too. Christianity and Islam themselves are far less contra-science.

Scientology. Anything created by a science fiction author is obviously not going to be accurate. Besides, everyone knows their underlying goal of having a world free of insanity will be far from met as long as Tom Cruise is still around. Vitamins for all!

none since science can't prove that magic doesn’t exist or any else for that matter

You see the idea is you have to believe for magic to work and scientist aren’t supposed to be biased so they can’t

I'd have to say Wicca, as well. Most of the others are in fact compatible with science--to a larger extent than Wicca, that is. Other than that, I would say either Buddhism or Hinduism, but don't know enough about the latter and the former I know the Dalai Lama in Tibet made a statement awhile ago about Buddhism being compatible with science (something to that extent, I believe; however, I am not an authority by any means, I just heard it on the news...or read it...)

This isn't which religion has the most effect on science the most, but the one that disagrees the most. I'd say Wicca, because Wicca simply is based on Magic, which is extremly unscientific.

POLL COMING!

being unscientific isn't the same as being in direct conflict. the religions that run into real conflicts are ones that hold factually wrong empircal claims as central tenets of the religion. your young earth biblical literalists and the like.

Scientology. Anything created by a science fiction author is obviously not going to be accurate. Besides, everyone knows their underlying goal of having a world free of insanity will be far from met as long as Tom Cruise is still around. Vitamins for all!

Well, remember, Jules Verne wrote science fiction, and we've developed submarines (20,000 leagues under the sea) and gone to the moon.

none since science can't prove that magic doesn’t exist or any else for that matter

You see the idea is you have to believe for magic to work and scientist aren’t supposed to be biased so they can’t
Magic breaks the law of conservation and thus is impossible...well, at least most Wicca magic does.

The philosophy of ID however beats it, if one acknowledges that to be a religion too.

Well, ID is not really a religion. It depends as there are so many different types, of course the version which says the earth is several thousand years old and was created in 6 days goes against scientific theory a lot (Thats not really ID but creationism. But what about the version that just states that the very first basic life forms were so complicated that they could not have come from nothing?

I'm going to be more specific and say Fundamentalist Christianity in all its many forms, from holiness churches to the Jehovah's Witnesses. If you're a young-earther or a creationist who believes in the literal truth of the Bible, then you're about as anti-science as you can get.

Anything created by a science fiction author is obviously not going to be accurate.

even if the hypothetical sci-fi author in question was a published and respected scientist too?

Well, remember, Jules Verne wrote science fiction, and we've developed submarines (20,000 leagues under the sea) and gone to the moon.

Not based on his plans. When did we discover that there were dinosaurs at the centre of the universe? When did we use a "cannon" to enter space?

Well, ID is not really a religion.

not a seperate one, no. it's just old earth creationism christianity.

even if the hypothetical sci-fi author in question was a published and respected scientist too?

That might change things. But Hubbard's theories are far from plausible.

That might change things. But Hubbard's theories are far from plausible.

well yeah, scientology is just stupid. but lots and lots of sci-fi authors are are and have been actual scientists.

not a seperate one, no. it's just old earth creationism christianity.

I guess you didn't read the rest of my post...

Magic breaks the law of conservation and thus is impossible...well, at least most Wicca magic does.

Magic is inherently in violation of the laws of nature...that's why it's magic and not science.

well yeah, scientology is just stupid. but lots and lots of sci-fi authors are are and have been actual scientists.

I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about the ones trained in fictitious writing.

you have to believe for magic to work
How convenient.

Something working only if you believe in it is what scientists refer to as a placebo effect - it works because your mind makes it work.

I was torn between Christianity and Islam here, but I had to go for Christianity just because of Creationism.

How convenient.

Something working only if you believe in it is what scientists refer to as a placebo effect - it works because your mind makes it work.

I was torn between Christianity and Islam here, but I had to go for Christianity just because of Creationism.

Geez, IS, don't you understand? Magic will be invisible to you untill you get your Hogwarts letter!

How convenient.

Something working only if you believe in it is what scientists refer to as a placebo effect - it works because your mind makes it work.

I was torn between Christianity and Islam here, but I had to go for Christianity just because of Creationism.

Not all of Christianity believes in creationism. But, of course, they are christian... they are not allowed to believe in a creation story that is in conflict with science, unlike all the other major religions in the world.

You should have had a category for "All of them equally," I would have voted for that one. Debating this is like a bunch of little kids discussing whose imaginary friend told the best bedtime story last night. Religions have about the same basis in reality.

I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about the ones trained in fictitious writing.

"trained in fictitious writing"?

I guess you didn't read the rest of my post...

i did. it just had nothing worthwhile written in it.

"trained in fictitious writing"?

You know, novelists? People with degrees in English, not degrees in science.

i did. it just had nothing worthwhile written in it.

Except from the part that shows that creationism =/= IDism... Whatever the majority of IDists also believe.

You know, novelists? People with degrees in English, not degrees in science.

and these english degrees are required to be a novelist?

and these english degrees are required to be a novelist?

No, but Science degrees are required to be scientists.

Except from the part that shows that creationism =/= IDism... Whatever the majority of IDists also believe.

you showed no such thing, since it is demonstrably false. we know the people that invented and propagandized the idea. we know what they believe and what the intended purpose of id is. and it is creationism through and through.

you showed no such thing, since it is demonstrably false. we know the people that invented and propagandized the idea. we know what they believe and what the intended purpose of id is. and it is creationism through and through.

Just because some of the people who made the theory of ID were christian, doesn't automatically mean that it is creationism. Thats like saying, Max Barry likes cake so Jenifer Government is about cake.

No, but Science degrees are required to be scientists.

right. which does nothing to ease my confusion. are not ken macleod and greg benford and issac asimov sci-fi novelists? do they not have degrees in various sciences?

right. which does nothing to ease my confusion. are not ken macleod and greg benford and issac asimov sci-fi novelists? do they not have degrees in various sciences?

I'm sure you're right. I wasn't, however, speaking about them. I was speaking about people who are only novelists, not scientists. Are you going to base your knowledge of art history on what Dan Brown says?

While I voted "Scientology" - I don't even consider that a religion.

Just because some of the people who made the theory of ID were christian, doesn't automatically mean that it is creationism. Thats like saying, Max Barry likes cake so Jenifer Government is about cake.

we know the names of all of the people behind the intelligent design movement. we know what they believe. we know why they invented id. we have their strategy memos. we have their funding records. we have the pre-id creationist drafts of the major id textbook.

it's more like if max wrote a book about cake, told people in interviews how much he likes cake, told people that he wrote the book to glorify cake, and did heavy advertising for "cake the book" in cake lovers support groups.

we know the names of all of the people behind the intelligent design movement. we know what they believe. we know why they invented id. we have their strategy memos. we have their funding records. we have the pre-id creationist drafts of the major id textbook.

it's more like if max wrote a book about cake, told people in interviews how much he likes cake, told people that he wrote the book to glorify cake, and did heavy advertising for "cake the book" in cake lovers support groups.

I would buy that book. Apologies for the spam, but I love cake.

we know the names of all of the people behind the intelligent design movement. we know what they believe. we know why they invented id. we have their strategy memos. we have their funding records. we have the pre-id creationist drafts of the major id textbook.

it's more like if max wrote a book about cake, told people in interviews how much he likes cake, told people that he wrote the book to glorify cake, and did heavy advertising for "cake the book" in cake lovers support groups.

Thats rubbish, some of the people were science professors at universities who wernt even Christian. You've obviously being hearing a load of craps from militant anti IDists.

Other: I would say Neo and Paleo-Paganism both.

OK I was torn in between Scietology and Creationism, I voted for Scientology but that's only because Creationists represent an infantesmally small portion of Christians.

Thats rubbish, some of the people were science professors at universities who wernt even Christian. You've obviously being hearing a load of craps from militant anti IDists.
Militant Anti-Idists? Is that like Chick's militant homosexual agenda? :p

Thats rubbish, some of the people were science professors at universities who wernt even Christian. You've obviously being hearing a load of craps from militant anti IDists.
Sorry, but I followed the Dover trial, and Free Soviets is correct. The people behind the ID movement, the people who funded it, who published the books, who developed the strategy to get it into school curricula, are all Creationists. That they got a couple of scientists to act as beards for the movement doesn't change that at all.

Sorry, but I followed the Dover trial, and Free Soviets is correct. The people behind the ID movement, the people who funded it, who published the books, who developed the strategy to get it into school curricula, are all Creationists. That they got a couple of scientists to act as beards for the movement doesn't change that at all.

I disagree, the people in the Dover trial were not actually the founders at all... Despite that, even if that was all true, that doesn't stop the theory itself having nothing to do with creationism. It just helps a small portion of it.

Thats rubbish, some of the people were science professors at universities who wernt even Christian. You've obviously being hearing a load of craps from militant anti IDists.

name them

You think these religions disagree with science? Check out Indigenous religions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions#Indigenous_religions

Despite that, even if that was all true, that doesn't stop the theory itself having nothing to do with creationism. It just helps a small portion of it.

there is no id theory. none. it is quite literally just christian old earth creationism in a cheap suit. shit, sometimes it lapses into young earth bullshit, when they think they can get away with it.

I disagree, the people in the Dover trial were not actually the founders at all... Despite that, even if that was all true, that doesn't stop the theory itself having nothing to do with creationism. It just helps a small portion of it.
Dude, this has been hammered time and again, even around here over the last year. The people who started the ID movement were creationists who looked at the court rulings that had gone against them time and again and decided to repackage the ideas of creationism with the new name "intelligent design" and replace "god" with "designer." It took about three stages to get all the god out of the material, but as the Dover trial showed, if you look at the different editions of the textbook IDers ask to be used in the curriculum, you can see the evolution (ironic, huh) of the book from a creationist text into an ID text. And we have written testimony from people at the head of the ID movement who talk about the need to remake creationism to make it legislatively palatable.

there is no id theory. none. it is quite literally just christian old earth creationism in a cheap suit. shit, sometimes it lapses into young earth bullshit, when they think they can get away with it.

In no part of the ID theory does it once mention christianity or the age of the earth or how it was formed.

You think these religions disagree with science? Check out Indigenous religions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions#Indigenous_religions

in so far as they are not in direct contradiction with empirical reality, they can technically disagree with science very little. you'd be amazed at how easy it is to reconcile pretty much anything incorporeal with the findings and even the physical mechanisms found by science.

As I know nothing about the tennets of Scientology, and I do not care to learn about it at the moment, I can only give my opinion between the religions that I know something about. Of these, Christianity is far and away the religion that disagrees most with current scientific understanding. It requires miricales to have happened, and to go on happening, with a miracle being defined as an event that defies scientific explanation. No other religion requires that our scientific knowledge be rejected. Not even wicca.

In no part of the ID theory does it once mention christianity or the age of the earth or how it was formed.

which is easy, considering that id doesn't have a theory, let alone parts.

it says nothing beyond "evolution is wrong and god...i mean the intelligent designer did it"

philip johnson himself has tacitly acknowledged that id is really "another way of packaging the Christian evangelical message"

in so far as they are not in direct contradiction with empirical reality, they can technically disagree with science very little. you'd be amazed at how easy it is to reconcile pretty much anything incorporeal with the findings and even the physical mechanisms found by science.

Huh?

The poll missed the most obvious category. ALL religions are based on belief which cannot be scientifically proved. There is no evidence of the existence of God. Religion depends on belief. Science relies on the testing of theory, until proven as fact, or discarded. The two are mutually incompatible.

which is easy, considering that id doesn't have a theory, let alone parts.

it says nothing beyond "evolution is wrong and god...i mean the intelligent designer did it"

philip johnson himself has tacitly acknowledged that id is really "another way of packaging the Christian evangelical message"

No, it looks at examples, like certain bacterium, and uses very advanced scientific methods to look at extreemly small parts of the bacterium and show how there are so many thousands of different parts. These parts are like the inner workings of a clock, and show that if one part is taken away the whole thing will be destroyed. Showing that it is irreducably complex. It also looks at DNA and RNA and shows that the information is so complex it will fill hundreds of books and could not have apeared from no where. That is one of the reasons the scientist who broke the DNA code became a believer in God.

Where does that mention anything to do with christianity, the age of the earth or how it was formed?

The best one... *nods*

No, it looks at examples, like certain bacterium, and uses very advanced scientific methods to look at extreemly small parts of the bacterium and show how there are so many thousands of different parts. These parts are like the inner workings of a clock, and show that if one part is taken away the whole thing will be destroyed. Showing that it is irreducably complex.

of course, behe's work has been so soundly trashed that he rarely shows his head outside of the creationist lecture circut these days. especially after being humilated in dover. ic was a stillborn idea (we already had known pathways for the evolution of most of his early examples), and things only got worse from there.

and don't get your information about dna from charlatans - they are lying to you.

of course, behe's work has been so soundly trashed that he rarely shows his head outside of the creationist lecture circut these days. especially after being humilated in dover. ic was a stillborn idea (we already had known pathways for the evolution of most of his early examples), and things only got worse from there.

and don't get your information about dna from charlatans - they are lying to you.

Weather it is valid or not isn't really the issue, the issue is that it isn't creationism.

Weather it is valid or not isn't really the issue, the issue is that it isn't creationism.

dude, they've been trying to dress up the anti-modernist biblical literalism of the fundies as something else for decades. this is just the new version, much like all the old versions. where do you think the idea of 'creation science' came from? the only thing is that id was marginally more slick than the previous travesties. but it still wasn't very slick at all, and was easily exposed for what it was.

Christianity, Judiasm, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology, Wicca, and all other religons disagrees with science the most
except for Islam, coz science show you the path and prove that there is no GOD but ALLAH alone, and that ALLAH
created man and provided him with the tools for acqruiring knowledge, namely hearing, sigh tand wisdom.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And Allâh has brought you out from the wombs of your mothers while
you know nothing. And He gave you hearing, sight, and hearts that you might give thanks (to Allâh)[al-Nahl 16:78]
Islam is the religion of knowledge. The first aayah of the Qur’aan to be revealed enjoined reading which is the key
to knowledge. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):“Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists).
He has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood). Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.
Who has taught (the writing) by the pen. He has taught man that which he knew not” [al-‘Alaq 96:1-5]
In Islam, knowledge comes before action; there can be no action without knowledge, as Allaah says
(interpretation of the meaning): “So know (O Muhammad) that Laa ilaaha ill-Allâh (none has the right to be worshipped
but Allâh), and ask forgiveness for your sin, and also for (the sin of) believing men and believing women”
[Muhammad 47:19]
Allaah warns every Muslim against speaking without knowledge, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And follow not (O man, i.e., say not, or do not, or witness not) that of which you have no knowledge. Verily,
the hearing, and the sight, and the heart of each of those ones will be questioned (by Allâh)”[al-Israa’ 17:36]
Emphasizing the status of knowledge and the scholars, Allaah calls upon the scholars to bear witness to His
Oneness, as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “Allâh bears witness that Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has
the right to be worshipped but He), and the angels, and those having knowledge (also give this witness); (He always)
maintains His creation in justice. Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the All-Mighty,
the All-Wise” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:18]
Knowledge and fear of Allaah may be attained by knowing His signs and creation. The knowledgeable are those who
know that, hence Allaah praises them by saying (interpretation of the meaning):“It is only those who have knowledge
among His slaves that fear Allâh”[Faatir 35:28]
The scholars occupy a noble status in Islam, and which is higher than the position of others in this world and in the
Hereafter. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):“Allâh will exalt in degree those of you who believe, and those
who have been granted knowledge”[al-Mujaadilah 58:11]
Because of the importance of knowledge, Allaah commanded His Messenger to seek more of it. Allaah says
(interpretation of the meaning):“and say: ‘My Lord! Increase me in knowledge’”[Ta-Ha 20:114]
Allaah praises the scholars, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):“Say: ‘Are those who know equal to those
who know not?’ It is only men of understanding who will remember (i.e. get a lesson from Allâh’s Signs and Verses)
”[al-Zumar 39:9]
Those who have knowledge are the quickest of people to understand the truth and believe in it:“And that those who
have been given knowledge may know that it (this Qur’aan) is the truth from your Lord, so that they may believe
therein, and their hearts may submit to it with humility” [al-Hajj 22:54 – interpretation of the meaning]
Islam calls us to seek knowledge. The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made seeking
knowledge an obligation upon every Muslim, and he explained that the superiority of the one who has knowledge
over the one who merely worships is like the superiority of the moon over every other heavenly body. He said that
the scholars are the heirs of the Prophets and that the Prophets did not leave behind dinars and dirhams
(i.e., money), rather their inheritance was knowledge, so whoever acquires it has gained a great share.
And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that seeking knowledge is a way to Paradise.
He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever follows a path in the pursuit of knowledge, Allaah
will make a path to Paradise easy for him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, Kitaab al-‘Ilm, 10)
Islam calls us to learn all kinds of beneficial knowledge. Branches of knowledge vary in status, the highest of
which is knowledge of sharee’ah, then knowledge of medicine, then the other fields of knowledge.

Magic breaks the law of conservation and thus is impossible...well, at least most Wicca magic does.

*facepalm* I wish people would at least know when they don't know what they're talking about, so they can keep their mouth shut.

Wicca magic does NOT break any laws of physics. Wiccans don't believe they can create something from nothing, telekinetically move objects, manipulate fire, et cetera. They only believe they can attract certain kinds of events to themselves by emulating the sort of energy that accompanies that event, which, although it is a very unspecific explanation that doesn't SOUND very scientific, does have the potential to be explained by science. Perhaps there are chemical reactions that take place in the brain when this happens that release some sort of particle or concentrate a little bit of magnetic field through ions or something of that sort, I don't know, but it's possible. It's like prayer as healing, or the attaining enlightenment through meditation. People don't believe in these things for thousands of years for no reason.

Christianity, Judiasm, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology, Wicca, and all other religons disagrees with science the most
except for Islam, coz science show you the path and prove that there is no GOD but ALLAH alone, and that ALLAH
created man and provided him with the tools for acqruiring knowledge, namely hearing, sigh tand wisdom.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And Allâh has brought you out from the wombs of your mothers while
you know nothing. And He gave you hearing, sight, and hearts that you might give thanks (to Allâh)[al-Nahl 16:78]
Islam is the religion of knowledge. The first aayah of the Qur’aan to be revealed enjoined reading which is the key
to knowledge. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):“Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists).
He has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood). Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.
Who has taught (the writing) by the pen. He has taught man that which he knew not” [al-‘Alaq 96:1-5]
In Islam, knowledge comes before action; there can be no action without knowledge, as Allaah says
(interpretation of the meaning): “So know (O Muhammad) that Laa ilaaha ill-Allâh (none has the right to be worshipped
but Allâh), and ask forgiveness for your sin, and also for (the sin of) believing men and believing women”
[Muhammad 47:19]
Allaah warns every Muslim against speaking without knowledge, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And follow not (O man, i.e., say not, or do not, or witness not) that of which you have no knowledge. Verily,
the hearing, and the sight, and the heart of each of those ones will be questioned (by Allâh)”[al-Israa’ 17:36]
Emphasizing the status of knowledge and the scholars, Allaah calls upon the scholars to bear witness to His
Oneness, as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “Allâh bears witness that Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has
the right to be worshipped but He), and the angels, and those having knowledge (also give this witness); (He always)
maintains His creation in justice. Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the All-Mighty,
the All-Wise” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:18]
Knowledge and fear of Allaah may be attained by knowing His signs and creation. The knowledgeable are those who
know that, hence Allaah praises them by saying (interpretation of the meaning):“It is only those who have knowledge
among His slaves that fear Allâh”[Faatir 35:28]
The scholars occupy a noble status in Islam, and which is higher than the position of others in this world and in the
Hereafter. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):“Allâh will exalt in degree those of you who believe, and those
who have been granted knowledge”[al-Mujaadilah 58:11]
Because of the importance of knowledge, Allaah commanded His Messenger to seek more of it. Allaah says
(interpretation of the meaning):“and say: ‘My Lord! Increase me in knowledge’”[Ta-Ha 20:114]
Allaah praises the scholars, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):“Say: ‘Are those who know equal to those
who know not?’ It is only men of understanding who will remember (i.e. get a lesson from Allâh’s Signs and Verses)
”[al-Zumar 39:9]
Those who have knowledge are the quickest of people to understand the truth and believe in it:“And that those who
have been given knowledge may know that it (this Qur’aan) is the truth from your Lord, so that they may believe
therein, and their hearts may submit to it with humility” [al-Hajj 22:54 – interpretation of the meaning]
Islam calls us to seek knowledge. The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made seeking
knowledge an obligation upon every Muslim, and he explained that the superiority of the one who has knowledge
over the one who merely worships is like the superiority of the moon over every other heavenly body. He said that
the scholars are the heirs of the Prophets and that the Prophets did not leave behind dinars and dirhams
(i.e., money), rather their inheritance was knowledge, so whoever acquires it has gained a great share.
And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that seeking knowledge is a way to Paradise.
He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever follows a path in the pursuit of knowledge, Allaah
will make a path to Paradise easy for him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, Kitaab al-‘Ilm, 10)
Islam calls us to learn all kinds of beneficial knowledge. Branches of knowledge vary in status, the highest of
which is knowledge of sharee’ah, then knowledge of medicine, then the other fields of knowledge.[/Islamic Propoganda] :p
Seriously, Science does not tell us a damned thing about Allah. You are simply making stuff up.

And Zin, don't they have conjuration or somesuch? That's what I think violates the laws...